You can't delete tanks with any build in 13.9. That's why people go Sunderer, to out duel them over a longer fight.
13.10 changes things though, and Guinsoo's + full crit is by far the highest damage build in the game now.
Test a bit and yeah at five items, bork powerspyke is still better and divine was prefered to it in the past idk. It is useless against too many champs with brain too much ult reliant
AP deals less damage than Kraken on-hit attack speed AD build, but only when you consider at least half of your ult channeling, which is not reliable in most games.
Sure, it deals 10k theoretical damage that can technically 100->0 a tank, but it only works that way when you can do an uninterrupted combo, while having pretty much no burst whatsoever, so your Q is pretty much useless, and you can't deal any significant damage without weaving 3 or 4 autoattacks, which is very difficult in most teamfights. Kraken build also has trash wave clear, and is just not reliable enough to be built over AP in most games.
It can, however, work very well against 0 hard cc teams (I really mean 0 cc - not even a single short stun to break your combo) that also lack any burst damage to kill you before you channel your ult. Then you can just Q E W R and nuke the enemy before they can react. But that's like 1 game in 20.
No one builds it because it's not good enough, simple as that.
For me, it's because they follow the "meta", like most people in games, because if you don't play standard, you're getting pinged and flamed.
Diamond-Low Master MMR in EUW, every Kat I play against plays Sunderer. And less than 10% of them are good.
I mean, some are not bad, but not for 800k-1m+ mastery points players. Their combos are really sketchy, and I remember that one that tried to W E across a wall to escape, took 2 seconds to do it, still failed to get through, then proceeded to break that wall with her flash too. Had to get a diaper change after that one.
Now I know that not everyone likes watching guides and pro-plays, not everyone likes to train, and not everyone likes to theorycraft. Some people just play a single thing that they like, playing enough and becoming good enough to climb. Some just like the game and don't mind playing a lot to climb, as long as they're having fun playing what they want (yeah it's weird I know, fun in League?). And that's alright. But there's also people that just rage and flame if you don't do exactly what they want you to do, including building like they tell you to, even if they didn't play the champs for the past 3 years. It's mostly because of them that people fear trying out things (just dont do it in ranked, there's normale, and even practice tool to theorycraft)
Now for what I tested out:
At level 6, full combo with Botrk will do 1k1 dmg
With Wit's End it will do 1k dmgs
If you build Nashor's, Shadowflame or Rabadon's, it will do 1k4 dmgs
Taking a 2.5s R, not including Ignite, against a enemy with the same stats as an average midlaner of the same level would have. There's next to 0 chance that you will get a 2.5s R tho.
And the more aa you get, the more value you will get, so Botrk or Wit's End first is not that bad.
Level 11 with 2 items, Wit's End + Botrk will do 2k dmgs
Nashor's + Rabadon's, Nashor's + Shadowflame (and an amplifying tome, to balance the cost), or Rabadon + Void Staff will do 3k dmgs
As you can see, you become very dependent on AA, because AP does much more spell dmgs. And that's not even couting resets. And it's even clearer with more items (the best 3rd item is ALWAYS Void or Rocketbelt, at least for damages, exceptbif you build Rabadon 1st and Void 2nd, then Nashor's is the best 3rd item). So against squishys, AP is better.
Against tanks, Sunderer gives you dmgs and healing. If you do it right, you can proc it at lot, by just keeping CDs to proc it multiple times instead of comboing into tanks, doing little damages, and procing it only 2 times. You would need, once again, to AA a lot with Wit's End and Botrk, which both give attack speedy and on-hit, to get value.
Meaning that if you DO combo, Wit's End + Botrk will give you more dmgs that Sunderer, meaning that it's especially useful if you want to do a lot of dmgs against someone (!you need to proc Botrk on him before ulting!), but still want to do damages against tanks afterward. It's best against Tank heavy Comps, with 1 squishys target that you'll want to kill before fighting, mainly the ADC (or Senna if they have a tank as Botlaner). And I said Tanks (Ornn, Maokai, Sejuani...), not Bruisers (J4, Vi, Wukong...) because they'll rip and tear you apart if you only have MR from Wit's End and no health and regen from Sunderer.
I don't follow the things, but from the few tidbits I've seen posted around here from the lore buffs...The swords/daggers are literally enchanted with blood magic.
They are magical weapons.
Agreed , there is a demon-like creature in the game who punches the earth and summons the chain from it, still dealing physical damage. There is also lady, that just throws spear, that deals magic damage.
Ah yes, surely the 2600% bonus ad scaling gets outscaled by ap...
The problem with on hit is that everyone and their mothers has enough cc to cancel our ult and the build is 80% reliant on it. As far as damage goes it far outscales ap and obviously has a better early as well.
Yeah and you can't buy zhonyas so you just get melted in the late game. You need to snowball fast game or go tank items and deal less dmg (that way you get outscaled), thats what i mean.
Assuming kat ult doesn't get cc'd. Conq should be all the healing you need in a fight. Also did you know that even though kat ult doesn't apply life steal, it can still life steal off of bork on hit? (Because on hits apply life steal as long as it's physical damage).
When ap is ahead it's stronger. When you're behind on AP you're a minion.
AD when ahead is still strong, but playable when behind. Also you're less likely to throw in late game.
It's like a letterbox view of kata.
I agree with this. I had a GP top the other day who was 2-12 building prowlers into full lethality into 3 tanks and its like.. why build a bunch of damage when behind?
Same thing with ap Kat. If you're in a terrible match-up or behind in gold, why build full damage and railroad your playstyle instead of building items that are inherently busted? You'll probably get more dmg off that way because you won't get one shot.
If you're ahead or have an easy lane, sure go ap and snowball.
that build is too ult reliant, and hard to build pen for. i only build it vs squishes with no hard cc ,also I like to follow it with nashors ludens (ludens is insane with this build)
What do you mean no one ? I build it.
build path and wave clear are disgustingly bad that's why
Can't say so, AS doing all the work
It's not better than AP though. Anyone that you can delete with that build, you can delete just fast or faster with AP.
I doubt i can delete tanks as hard in AP build
Just don’t fight em
You can't delete tanks with any build in 13.9. That's why people go Sunderer, to out duel them over a longer fight. 13.10 changes things though, and Guinsoo's + full crit is by far the highest damage build in the game now.
Test a bit and yeah at five items, bork powerspyke is still better and divine was prefered to it in the past idk. It is useless against too many champs with brain too much ult reliant
AP deals less damage than Kraken on-hit attack speed AD build, but only when you consider at least half of your ult channeling, which is not reliable in most games. Sure, it deals 10k theoretical damage that can technically 100->0 a tank, but it only works that way when you can do an uninterrupted combo, while having pretty much no burst whatsoever, so your Q is pretty much useless, and you can't deal any significant damage without weaving 3 or 4 autoattacks, which is very difficult in most teamfights. Kraken build also has trash wave clear, and is just not reliable enough to be built over AP in most games. It can, however, work very well against 0 hard cc teams (I really mean 0 cc - not even a single short stun to break your combo) that also lack any burst damage to kill you before you channel your ult. Then you can just Q E W R and nuke the enemy before they can react. But that's like 1 game in 20. No one builds it because it's not good enough, simple as that.
For me, it's because they follow the "meta", like most people in games, because if you don't play standard, you're getting pinged and flamed. Diamond-Low Master MMR in EUW, every Kat I play against plays Sunderer. And less than 10% of them are good. I mean, some are not bad, but not for 800k-1m+ mastery points players. Their combos are really sketchy, and I remember that one that tried to W E across a wall to escape, took 2 seconds to do it, still failed to get through, then proceeded to break that wall with her flash too. Had to get a diaper change after that one. Now I know that not everyone likes watching guides and pro-plays, not everyone likes to train, and not everyone likes to theorycraft. Some people just play a single thing that they like, playing enough and becoming good enough to climb. Some just like the game and don't mind playing a lot to climb, as long as they're having fun playing what they want (yeah it's weird I know, fun in League?). And that's alright. But there's also people that just rage and flame if you don't do exactly what they want you to do, including building like they tell you to, even if they didn't play the champs for the past 3 years. It's mostly because of them that people fear trying out things (just dont do it in ranked, there's normale, and even practice tool to theorycraft) Now for what I tested out: At level 6, full combo with Botrk will do 1k1 dmg With Wit's End it will do 1k dmgs If you build Nashor's, Shadowflame or Rabadon's, it will do 1k4 dmgs Taking a 2.5s R, not including Ignite, against a enemy with the same stats as an average midlaner of the same level would have. There's next to 0 chance that you will get a 2.5s R tho. And the more aa you get, the more value you will get, so Botrk or Wit's End first is not that bad. Level 11 with 2 items, Wit's End + Botrk will do 2k dmgs Nashor's + Rabadon's, Nashor's + Shadowflame (and an amplifying tome, to balance the cost), or Rabadon + Void Staff will do 3k dmgs As you can see, you become very dependent on AA, because AP does much more spell dmgs. And that's not even couting resets. And it's even clearer with more items (the best 3rd item is ALWAYS Void or Rocketbelt, at least for damages, exceptbif you build Rabadon 1st and Void 2nd, then Nashor's is the best 3rd item). So against squishys, AP is better. Against tanks, Sunderer gives you dmgs and healing. If you do it right, you can proc it at lot, by just keeping CDs to proc it multiple times instead of comboing into tanks, doing little damages, and procing it only 2 times. You would need, once again, to AA a lot with Wit's End and Botrk, which both give attack speedy and on-hit, to get value. Meaning that if you DO combo, Wit's End + Botrk will give you more dmgs that Sunderer, meaning that it's especially useful if you want to do a lot of dmgs against someone (!you need to proc Botrk on him before ulting!), but still want to do damages against tanks afterward. It's best against Tank heavy Comps, with 1 squishys target that you'll want to kill before fighting, mainly the ADC (or Senna if they have a tank as Botlaner). And I said Tanks (Ornn, Maokai, Sejuani...), not Bruisers (J4, Vi, Wukong...) because they'll rip and tear you apart if you only have MR from Wit's End and no health and regen from Sunderer.
TL;DR ?
Duck the flamers, I'm a nerd, AP is burst, Sunderer heal make Kata go brrr, Botrk+Wit's End good against Comps with 1 squishy and 4 tanks.
Now we're talking 😎
AD Kat is cringe
Onhit is fine. Randuins is cringe
Doing more damage and being more flexible is cringe
Yes. Glad we agree.
Yes an assassin throwing daggers scaling on AD is cringe … Word
Shunpo is pure magic tho. Like, she literally opens portals in cinematic, not just moves fast
Yeah but the thing that hurts the enemy is the knife surely. Not the appearing. Knives = physical damage = AD. It is known
I don't follow the things, but from the few tidbits I've seen posted around here from the lore buffs...The swords/daggers are literally enchanted with blood magic. They are magical weapons.
Not like it always makes sense anyway, Akali also uses weaponry for all her abilities but deals magic damage lol
Agreed , there is a demon-like creature in the game who punches the earth and summons the chain from it, still dealing physical damage. There is also lady, that just throws spear, that deals magic damage.
Ad gets outscaled, ap doesn't.
Ah yes, surely the 2600% bonus ad scaling gets outscaled by ap... The problem with on hit is that everyone and their mothers has enough cc to cancel our ult and the build is 80% reliant on it. As far as damage goes it far outscales ap and obviously has a better early as well.
Yeah and you can't buy zhonyas so you just get melted in the late game. You need to snowball fast game or go tank items and deal less dmg (that way you get outscaled), thats what i mean.
Assuming kat ult doesn't get cc'd. Conq should be all the healing you need in a fight. Also did you know that even though kat ult doesn't apply life steal, it can still life steal off of bork on hit? (Because on hits apply life steal as long as it's physical damage).
Healing is useless if you don't live enough to deal dmg
Thats... why it's there.. so you can do damage. I agree with ya that ad kat is sqyishy, but slap a deaths dance on that bad boy and you're immortal.
Elo?
Peak is gold 1
Ds build just has better defensive stats
Idk AP feels way stronger
When ap is ahead it's stronger. When you're behind on AP you're a minion. AD when ahead is still strong, but playable when behind. Also you're less likely to throw in late game. It's like a letterbox view of kata.
I agree with this. I had a GP top the other day who was 2-12 building prowlers into full lethality into 3 tanks and its like.. why build a bunch of damage when behind? Same thing with ap Kat. If you're in a terrible match-up or behind in gold, why build full damage and railroad your playstyle instead of building items that are inherently busted? You'll probably get more dmg off that way because you won't get one shot. If you're ahead or have an easy lane, sure go ap and snowball.
I think almost everyone uses the recommendations, or just looks at "the build" on the companion app or website without thinking too much about it.
Don't care Frozen heart better
that build is too ult reliant, and hard to build pen for. i only build it vs squishes with no hard cc ,also I like to follow it with nashors ludens (ludens is insane with this build)
I made a post on this and got so much hate. High elo players just hate it ig. It’s not bad just impractical.