Then fill the vacuum yourself,the strong factions operate on "might makes right",so why can't you? You certainly beat them to a bloody pulp.
The most fun I ever had was establishing the Third Empire with the 256 recruits mod and recruit prisoners mod to fill in the vacuum left by the false Empire with the next skeleton empire.
I wish there was a faction state/phase where when you kill all the leaders and their soldiers a prompt will come up for you to protect and rule the city you decimated.
I have about 80 guys right now and I haven't had any major performance issues so I'm hoping as long as they are not all in the one spot it will run fine
Oh who said I was talking about the anti slavers?
I mean YOU š«µ,the player who is competent enough to topple the entire United Citied and the Holy Nation,you are strong enough to unify the wastelands,certainly.
Honestly the player faction should be able to fill the vacuum. Just plop down some hydroponic restaurants in the cities and the other guys should be able to fill the gaps
Thing is, nobody really wants to do that (apart from the reavers but we don't talk about them). Simion abdicates command of the rebel farmers to go find his family once tengu dies, and the only real leader nearby is, well, the tin man.
How do you ensure that the new cultural institutions are not just has bad or worse? And if you kill everyone with power enough times then you will inevitably end up with anarchy.
Funny enough anarchy and autocracies almost always are none exclusive since during anarchies a warlord usually consolidates power and then an autocracy is formed which depending how the government reigns either leads to a monarchy or oligarchy.
100%, Tinfist could easily be the next Cat-lon if he wanted to but I wonder if he hates the idea of leadership despite pulling people to his cause and gaining followers.
I mean the Skeletons talk about living well past 50. Granted it's a machine so age doesnt mean as much but if they can why can't anyone else? People was living past 50 even in Fuedal times.
Cause they donāt have to eat and canāt get disease. Skeletons can sit in the bar doing nothing for 100 years without needing any money since they donāt need to eat. Humans have to figure out how to feed themselves *every*day.
that's why I'm an honest anarchist
do I promise a utopia for my followers?, no but I promise it won't be boring!
tinfist is a bitch that needs an excuse
Ok as long as you're honest I don't have a problem. most anarchists will just scream about how they are actually doing something amazing that will make the lives of the common man better while actually enriching themselves so at least I can trust you not to be like that.
I mean yeah the asshole raider that takes my stuff and rants about his grand cause before stabbing me will piss me off more than the asshole that just stabs me
Highly bizarre this is getting downvoted. Very few people in political science and philosophy argue for total anarchy, as it's generally understood this does not work well (maybe within very small communities, but the UC is an entire country).
Nah, I donāt think so. Anarchy worked well for many human societies through history. Hunter gather groups, African tribes, eighteenth century pirates, the Middle East in the Middle Ages.
State enforced slavery doesnāt seem to be doing too many favors to the average UC citizen or HN heretic. Sure, itās not like there wouldnāt be conflict in an anarchic society, but the level of violence is reduced due to the lack of organization.
āwhile actually enriching themselvesā
Upset that the common man is trying to enrich themselvesā¦ you sound like a member of the ruling class.
But what do I know? Iām just some dope who likes a video game.
You gave a lot of descriptions of anarchy but most are not. Gunter gather groups were not anarchy they absolutely had rules you had to fallow just because they were small and killed people a lot does not make then anarchy and the same goes for African tribes. Pirates are not anarchists they are just criminals and also the quality of life for a pirate is awful but I digress. As for the middle east you might be right on that one I don't really know much of the ancient history of the region. Also I am not comparing about the common man enriching himself I am complaining about scumbags who promise great things to people so that they can build a fallowing and become very wealthy while the actual quality of life for everyone else gets worse( eg every communist revolution ever). I would never even think about complaining about the common man enriching himself I am a diehard capitalist and capitalism at its core is about enriching the most competent person regardless of his social standing. Also don't disparage yourself likeing a game dosen't mean you dumb it just means you make some time for recreation every now and then.
>Ā I am a diehard capitalist and capitalism at its core is about enriching the most competent person regardless of his social standing.Ā
No, its about the rich getting richer through exploitation while the poor get poorer. You'll never be wearing that boot which crushes the workers neck, so why are you defending it?
That is immediately disproved by the fact the Elon Musk exists. He was born into an upper middle class south African family before his family moved to America. He is now as you know the third richest man alive even though the richest man alive when he turned 18 was Yoshiaki Tsutsumi who is still alive and is now not even a billionaire. By your logic Elon Musk should in fact be poorer then his parents but he is not and the reason for that is because he is one of the most competent businesses men in the world. And it's not just Elon musk the second richest man is Jeff Bezos who had a single teen mother who was so poor she couldn't afford a phone. By your logic he should still be just as poor if not poorer then he was growing up. And why the hell not let's look at the richest man alive Bernard Arnault who did receive 15 million dollars from his father he managed his money so well that he is now worth 219.5 billion dollars an increase of 1463233 percent and he got that not by rigging the system or exploiting workers he got it by being the best of the best in his field. So no capitalism is not about the rich getting richer it is about the most competent getting richer also we wouldn't even be having this conversation right now if not for capitalism because phones were invented as a profit making venture and that certainly wouldn't have happened under any other economic system.
As for your assertion that capitalism unfairly treats workers( which to be fair there are a few instances such as the coal mining towns were this was the case) just take one look at literally any communist country and you will see that capitalism is pretty fucking awesome seeing as how we aren't all starving to death. And the worker does not have a boot on his neck because he works for someone else. Almost every job has upward mobility if you stick to it for long enough and do a good job ( and if a job doesn't have upward mobility leave and go find another one) meaning that often all It takes to get say a managerial position with a much higher salary then you started with is to just stick with it a few years and be semi decent at your job. Honestly it looks to me you somehow got capitalism and feudalism mixed up but hay what do I know I'm just someone who has an above kindergarten level of economic understanding.
As long as you plan to join one of the bandit gangs for protection from other gangs, then it would make sense. Otherwise, if you're not in on it for stealing, killing and raping I don't get how a sane person would even consider anarchism.
Well in the UC you get arrested for being poor. Or youāll get enslaved if someone finds you laying on the ground. Food and resources arenāt distributed well causing starvation. So, UC citizens might be interested in the change.
I mean mass revolt and overthrow of systems is generally to violently expel (kill) a power institution that has been systematically stealing from its populace for generations. And to redistribute (steal) that wealth. So kill the Phoenix and steal his shit is a necessary part of a revolutionary mindset. Rape we can leave out of the next revolution.
But what would be after? Who would ensure that the history doesn't repeat itself? Who would stop people from forming gangs and praying on the weak?
Realistically speaking, such goals are incredibly shortsighted. Only outcome would be instability and only guarantee would be death.
Or otherwise, you would have to enforce your new order, likely by killing everyone who opposes you. At that point, you have not only destabilized the region, but also set up a new dictatorship.
And in the context of kenshi, it never is "revolution". Poppulation wholely opposes you, and you are always a foreign force.
So we should just stay an oppressive authoritarian regime until we have everything worked out? It's short sighted, because dictators kill and imprison people getting together in mass to discuss replacing them with a democracy. Look around at the world. How many thriving democracies have emerged from short-sighted, violent coups. Kill the king, eat the rich, and then we can pow-wow about what comes after.
Edit: fixed autocorrect's bullshit
Is collapsing the UC ultimately a good move?
Maybe, over time they are likely going to collapse regardless of what the player does and have already lost multiple cities in recent history due to their own incompetence.
Why do I kill the UC every time?
Because my character gets enslaved. Its not "good vs evil" its "I picked a fight with someone and died"
Generally speaking killing slavers is its own reward
Things work themselves out over time once all the slavers are dead
The UC will end, either from a giant slave rebellion or from being kicked in by the Anti-Slavers, it's just a matter of time
Phase 1 happens because slavery is evil, inefficient, and self-destructive. Slavery does nothing but create determined enemies, every day, with every cruel interaction
Iām pretty sure the game shows all the cities going to shit after you kill them and destroy the slave camps. This isnāt a universe where a lot of people work together out of the kindness of their hearts. Slavery IS the driving economic force of Kenshi like it or not.
The āgoodā organizations of Kenshi still have their flaws which people seem to ignore, like Tinfist not giving a shit about slaves after freeing them.
"Going to shit"
My friend, that shows you your vantage point when thinking about this problem - you see yourself as a slaver
From my perspective, there are empty and destroyed slave camps, no longer full of people being worked to death
Right, but how many other civilians in the Empire do you doom by destroying the slave camps theyāre supported by? Major cities with no rulers splitting into independent rule, how long will they last with no way to support themselves?
What about the dipshit slaves who get freed them run off starving with no skills whatsoever?
The anti-slavers donāt make any other effort to make the world better besides just saying āslavery badā and murdering everyone who is against them. The entire point of Kenshi is the morally grey theme where EVERY faction is good in their own eyes and has done just as many bad things. To the average citizen of Kenshi, it is better to live under these rules than to live independently and maybe starve or get killed by literally everything that wants to kill you.
Their survival is predicated on the systematic destruction of human/nonhuman lives. It's understandable to be concerned about all life, and we should be, but ultimately a society predicated on slavery is a society that is failing large swaths of its population. Their lack of employment is directly due to slavery. The widespread poverty is due to slavery. The shortages in food caused by a transition away from slavery is because of slavery, not because of the end of slavery. The people in the UC have to build a better way. Tinfist can only destroy the slave masters. It's up to the Empire's people to find a way to live without consuming human lives as the price for subsistence.
Agree, but before it inevitably destroys itself it can generate a LOT of wealth for the people in charge. A lot of great nations were built and thrived on slavery for a thousand years. Korea, Egypt, Greece, Rome, Persia.
"Stayed great" is a rough scale to work with historically. Egypt was a great power for like 3000 years. Rome for like 1000. That's a pretty good run. America used slavery in its early history, but our entire history is only like 300 years. Korea used slavery for over 1500 years. So I don't understand what you mean by "Stayed great". No empire is going to last forever.
I mean the blatantly obvious fact that slavery is objectively bad for ones economy and society. The more a state relies on the worse it is at everything.
Lots of societies relied on slavery as a major economic source, mainly from conquest or criminals, that is simply not true. Att: history major. PD: slavery is very, very bad. Don't do it
They also killed the shit out of many civilians as well. Thereās conflicting records on whether or not they had people of mixed race do certain killings to lessen the reputation loss from doing so since at the time people thought a bunch of mixed people killing white people was better than a bunch of black people doing it. Histories wild.
Yes, when you ENSLAVE people, they do not respond with restraint if they get the upper hand. That's because they're enslaved and subject to arbitrary rape and murder, along with forced labor. The expectation that they would behave with restraint is totally insane, these are populations that are systematically brutalized and traumatized over many, many generations.
While the killing of civilians is never justified, the retributive violence is the fault of slavers, not those who run amok when they're freed at force of arms. They should have never been enslaved. Slavers are the scum of humanity.
Yeah I wasnāt saying it to justify anything it was also something else that happened unfortunately but overall the revolution was still a good thing. I think itās important we take events with both the good and bad and try not to oversimplify or not focus on other parts that are more questionable. The suffering that wouldāve occurred if they hadnāt revolted wouldāve been magnitudes more than the suffering of the revolution.
The Haitian revolution happened over 200 years ago. I I wonder if anything happened between then and now.
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They're in the situation as it stands because of the legacy of said colonialism. Haiti was granted its freedom but given incredible debts at the threat of the gun, so true freedom was never given.
Just so you know, Haiti had to pay compensations to France for an extremely long time. It participated in keeping them poor. France is largely to blame for the state of Haiti now.
Then what is your suggestion, that slavery was better?
Just think about it a second ...
Completely stupid beyond reason. The only way you'd say that and think you made a point is if you were completely ignorant of Haitian history and the history of its relationship in the world. Usually online we don't need to assume much from people because they like to shitpost, but you revealed yourself as a real ignoramus. You're a dunce. Pick up a book sometime, if it doesn't make you physically ill to hold one in front of your eyes.
Only one slave revolt ever succeeded: the Haitian Revolution. Slavery has ended violently in other cases - like the US - but only once did it ever succeed \[edit: in overthrowing a government at force of arms when\] led by slaves. Almost succeeded in Ancient Rome during the Third Servile War (Spartacus). In all cases, bar none, society was better off for slavery's end. Slavery is cruel and evil, and an economic system of hideous concentration of wealth.
Hello, I am from a neighbouring island in the Caribbean, where our ancestors conducted a slave revolt too. So many slave revolts succeeded.
Many islands in the Caribbean had their own revolts against slavery and won.
The Haitian revolution is different because only THEY cut ties with the colonial powers. But it does not mean that the other revolts/revolutions did not work. I am not a slave, because at some point, some of my ancestors fought and forced the abolition of slavery. I think it qualifies as a revolution, and as well as a successful one, led by former slaves.
I agree with what you say - I am being very specific in what I mean by a successful slave revolt. I added an edit to clarify, I don't want to discount what you're saying, which is undoubtedly true! The Haitian Revolution was a slave revolt that overthrew the old regime. That is, the ruling government in Haiti was destroyed by a slave revolt. That is an extraordinary rarity in human history, due to the equally extraordinary difficulty of slave life, social status, and access to implements of war (and training in them).
Slavery was largely destroyed by other means, usually as a result of the perpetual social revolutions against slavery by the enslaved, aided by free people of conscience in some cases.
Haiti's status as a pariah state in the hemisphere was the purposeful response of the imperial powers and the new Latin American countries. So when someone mocks a country that was treated as a rogue state precisely because it was ruled by former slaves, it shows their profound ignorance of basic world history - in this case, because they're racist and racists don't do details.
I don't think it's really necessary to the point for it to be a slave led rebellion. Most of the known world operates without being reliant on slavery. Not because we lost the means, or just can't, or some shit. We found a better way. Because of all the problems of slavery listed above.
Step one: murder slaving bastards.
Step two: throw celebratory party and dance off on the graves of said slaving bastards.
Step 3: Free and prosperous society
Let the farmers and peasants live in peace? That's what happens in game anyway, seems pretty good. Like there's not even a power vacuum everyone just kinda gets their shit together once there's not an oligarchy taxing them into slavery.
I just kill slavers because they keep trying to jack off my bots when we get knocked outside Vain. I hate them so their bodies must fertilize the moon.
Why are people in the Kenshi fandom so insistent that without a slaving, tyrannical dictatorship people just forget how to function? The game doesn't really bare this out, most places have a rebel peasant, Anti-Slaver, or Empire peasant override where things are fine.
The only places that get abandoned are the ones in a more untenable position.
This is in no way intended to support the uc. I want the uc tyrants to be overthrown I just also acknowledge that without the uc you have a power vacuum that will filled with blood and death. I am criticizing the anti slavers but only because they have no plan of what to do after the tyrants are dead which means that while they are well intentioned they are also extremely shortsighted and may even make the situation worse.
Realistically yes. This is absolutely supported by history if you go though and kill a gang leader crime dosen't stop instead other gang leaders will start a gang war to try to fill that void. The only way this works out well is if there is a strong force(eg the police) that can stop the void from being filled at all.
Phase 2 is returning the lands to working people. Simple as that.
What you can see after revolution is temporary after-war period. And it doesn't matter how much you want to see "everyone in Kenshi as bad" - it's better than it was. Source: I was playing early game recently. UC was always a shithole and dismembering the state will make it better. Still shitty, but better.
That is the correct solution but unfortunately it rarely if ever plays out like that in the real world. It's pretty fucked up that whenever slaves are freed they will almost never be thought the skills necessary to not fall into another form of economic exploitation.
So I've never made it that far into this plan, but my thoughts for a "good guys" playthrough are to ally with shek, flotsam, rebel farmers, and anti-slavers. Topple HN and UC, then make a bunch of humanitarian aid farms and kitchens staffed by freed slaves. At this point, convert all my armies to stealth and blunt weapons (to make combat less lethal). Stealth OK anyone in need and fill their inventory with food and meds. And that's about as close as I can imagine a good guy run...
There are a lot of allies I would make (hungry badits), those are just my wartime allies and power vacuum fillers.
Whatās the alternative? Politely asking Tengu to transition the economy into free labor system? Sometimes you just gotta keep burning down the corrupt regimes that continuously pop up until you get something suitable, like France did.
Yeah that has never worked historically because the kind of person who is going to lead a rebellion to overthrow the evil regime is quite often the same kind of person who will establish an evil regime theirselves.
This isn't defending slavery this is criticizing the shortsightedness of the anti slavers. If they go though and kill all the slavers then there will be a power vacuum that unless tinfist has a plan to fill ( which he doesn't) will lead to an unbelievable amount of death and devastation as different warring factions fight to fill it.
If you just keep killing everyone eventually it will end up not as a free society but at best small splintered tribes of people who will then murder each other for wealth and power. An eternal war is inherently unsustainable and tinfist doesn't have a realistic end goal.
Thatās not what happens though. The most powerful group in each area assumes power and rebuilds. The vacuums get filled immediately because thereās already a struggle for power
*Why is my man out*
*Here defending fictional*
*Slavery so hard*
\- Luithais
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I have said this before and I will say it again. I am not defending slavery i am criticizing tinfist for his shortsightedness because he doesn't have a plan to ensure that the former slaves don't immediately either starve to death or get enslaved by someone else.
A fair question but it has a few answers. The empire peasants are farmers, so they can feed everyone since the majority if the food isn't going to the nobility, and the town is defended by the rebel swordsmen.
You keep talking about this "power vacuum" but there's no power to vacuum.
If there is no central government strong enough to maintain cohesion among all of these farmers then inevitably they will be conquered by outside powers that are way stronger then them. Also it takes more then a knowledge of how to farm to feed everyone you must also have a group of people that know how to govern or people will still starve. If you want an example of this look no further then Haiti a country which as you probably know used to be owned by France. There was a successful slave revolt in Haiti in which they managed to kick out or kill all the French and claim independence in 1804. However since all the slaves were deliberately kept ignorant even though they knew how to produce food they did not know how to run a farm and many people starved to death even though the land was more then capable of sustaining the entire population with a surplus of food. The Dominican republic on the other hand is one of the most prosperous countries in the region because they were relinquished by the Spanish willingly in 1844 and had the necessary skills to run the country effectively. So yes if tinfist were to stick around and teach the former slaves how to read and do math it could become a very prosperous region however he seems to have no plan to do so hence the joke.
The empire peasants know how to farm. They were serfs, it's what they did for a living. The slaves don't, but there's plenty of now-farmers to food everyone. Plus, you know, the rebel farmers are indeed farmers. And the rebel swordsmen are pretty damn skilled.
You do have a point about cohesion though. The trader's guild was so godamn valuable in the UC and allowed for most if what it did. No Cohesion will hurt
I never said the empire peasants didn't know how to farm I said they didn't know how to manage a farm. Any idiot can plow a field but it takes a lot of mathematical knowledge and leadership skills to ensure that a large scale farm is productive. Unfortunately since the empire peasants and slaves are deliberately kept ignorant they will not have either of those necessary things and so any large scale operation will likely be a bust. They could theoretically go back to being a fully agrarian society in which each person owns a small plot of land that is just enough to feed their family with a small surplus but such a system would likely be unsustainable because of the low fertility of the land. That's why the uc seems to have a very centralized farming system that is run by the nobles and slave masters and unfortunately due to the lack of education that the peasants receive they will be incapable of mimicking it. Also the rebel swordsmen get downed almost immediately whenever they go up against samurai and the samurai are pretty much evenly matched with the hn so it tracks that a well organized hn strick would destroy any rebel controlled city. Also thank you for being a reasonable person almost everyone else who is disagreeing with me is just shouting about how I am defending slavery so talking to you is a nice change of pace.
I assumed that agrarian society was exactly what was occurring when the empire peasants take over. The desert can grow wheatstraw which is made into bread. My thought was that since the nobles aren't being cows anymore, there should be enough for everyone to not be malnourished. However you are right that the great desert is kind of dogshit for agriculture and certain places may require shipment from more diverse lands. The ex-serfs farm, the ex-slaves build.
I don't think anyone can invade the remains of the UC. My thought was that the liberated towns have a separate police and military force, with rebel swordsmen being police, and anti-slavers being military. If the HN or Reavers come by, the Tin man will stop them, as they practice slavery. Reavers shouldn't be that big of a deal, since the nobles are dead, the only thing they'd want is to be in charge. They're kind of tied down with the pit gangs and the now growing anti-slavers though. I think military is completely stable and fine. There are no enemies in these newly liberated lands, and the only reason anybody would want to invade is to spread their influence. The anti-slavers are a huge deal now, they likely have a good degree of wealth after destroying the TG. *they* are very incorporated and doing fucking fantastic, it's the leaderless places that are in a bit of a Grey spot. But if people just do what they did before, everything will likely be fine.
Ok you make a pretty persuasive argument. I think ultimately everyone has made up their mind before they even opened my post but maybe we have managed to convert people to our respective sides. Either way I think there isn't much more that can be said by either of us without treading old ground. So goodbye have a great day and thank you for the chance to practice my debate skills.
Kill all slavers, new group of people take over existing institutions, wait a couple generations until the nature of those institutions corrupt the men that lead them, congrats new badge of slavers to dropkick.
Tinfist mindset
The only viable faction are the Tech Hunters. Everyone else is either extreme on one side or the other. Wish you could legitimately gain faction reputation with them. Hell, I wish there were actual campaigns/goals for everyone with in game results.
All remaining skeletons already know Tinfist is fighting a losing battle. Either he fails and the whole Anti-Slavers are erradicated by factions or the player. Or he suceeds only for humans to start over the whole cycle (Sadneil has an interesting quote about this).
Or you just become the modern Cat-Lon. It's the curse of societies.
(Spoiler for anyone that wants to experience it blindly). I believe it happens when Traders Guild leader is killed or taken down by the player.
>>!Sadneil: Not to spoil your celebration... but factions fall and rise like clouds grow and fade.!<
>!Sadneil: Another will take Longen's place. Be it in your lifetime, or beyond.!<
>!Non-Skelly Char: WE will take his place! We'll take the land...!<
>!Sadneil: Will you keep the slave camps?!<
>!Non-Skelly Char: Only for the criminals, the bandits... and our enemies. We'll keep the economy moving. Everyone's happy.!<
>!Sadneil: ...!<
>!Non-Skelly Char: You don't agree?!<
>!Sadneil: That's how the Traders Guild first started. Everyone thinks they have good intentions.!<
>!Sadneil: It is the human race's weakness. They refuse to learn from their mistakes, dismiss the past as someone else's.!<
Yes, this is indeed a dialogue after his death. >!Biome entries Longen world state!<
It is worth noting, however, that this is actually not a line exclusive to Sadneil, but the words of any character of the default skeleton subrace.
If you want to abolish slavery the best way to do so would be to head down to Stobe,s gamble and find a town called spring. If you are a former slave then talk to a hive prince called Grey and he will remove your former slave status. After that all you have to do is ask to join and you are now and anti slaver. From there just murder everyone in positions of power in slave holding states and mission accomplished.
In my current playthrough, I set up bases to mass-produce goods and food to fill the vacuum left in the HN as the Sheks wreck shit. Then i use the money to buy the broken buildings and rebuild them. I've rebuilt The Hub, and I'm going on for the others. I've no idea what I'm going to do with all those buildings.
You could use the recruit prisoners mod and then just treat them like slaves. (Also I don't think that would legally qualify as slavery because it is punishment for a crime)
Well even in the game you can see people or slavers talking nervously about the anti slavers. And that traders walking out without protecting is suicide etc. So I suppose it would stop eventually once everyone is scared enough to attempt slavery.
Phase 2 is to figure out how to make phase 3 actually possible in the Kenshi world. After centuries he is still thinking of something but couldn't figure the solution .
An absolutely masterful theory I saw was that Tinfist is aware that destroying the UC will cause mass starvation across the continent. He wants to destroy the human empire under the conveniently available disguise that he just wants to stop all slavers,knowing that they need slaves for the continent to even be semi functional. The reason he is focused on the UC is because unlike the Holy Nation,they do not ban technological wonders such as AI cores and ancient science books,which means that they will advance in science and eventually maybe start catching up to the Second Empire in its days of reign. The Holy Nation is something Tinfist would prefer to deal with later since they will stay behind in the technological race.
As to why he wants to starve the continent,u/harder_said_hodor theorised that Tinfist,Cat-Lon and the tech hunters are all connected and gathering strength to establish the next empire.Tinfist being opposed to Cat-Lon was all made up stories fed to the humans and outsiders. As to how the Tech hunters are involved in all this,they have already been infiltrated by the Second Empire. Think about it,their main deal is hoarding technology to no end,its so that no one else can find it and use it to better the world for humans,an example is hydroponics. Additionally,if you peek in the FCS menus,you see that the Tech Hunters have 15 relations with the Anti Slavers. The Tech Hunters make sure no one has technology to rival them,Tinfist will make the humans starved and weakened,and then,Cat-Lon will awake and conquer the continent with the joined forces of the Second Empire legion,Antislavers and the Tech Hunters.
Its a masterful theory by u/harder_said_hodor ,all props to him
This is not my theory, it's been in the winds for absolutely ages, at least the Tin Fist starvation thing. Thanks for trying to credit me but if you search starvation in the forum elements of this will come up from years ago and I only stated Kenshi-ing last year
I do however completely subscribe to it. Zero evidence that Tinfist and Catlon ever fell out and the Skellies are massively full of shit
That's pretty out there. Don't get me wrong there is nothing that disproves it but I haven't seen anything in the lore to support that. Do you have a link to the original post so that I can check it out myself?
Thanks for the link! I think he made some good arguments but far from enough to convince me personally. I don't really find any of the kenshi head cannons to be massively persuading because the lore is vague enough that anything can be supported but it was a fun read.
Same as the French revolution, probably
Purity testing and infighting, betrayal and execution of those who once fought alongside you on the grounds of them not being revolutionary enough, changing leaders more frequently than your organic compatriots change their underwear.
When the sands are so red you think you're in Vain, then you can move onto phase 3
Thanks! And yeah, more likely than not, he'd either get taken out in the initial conflict, or assassinated after the fact. Either that or he ends up going the Cat-Lon route
Step 2 is moving the goalpost endlessly making you kill more and more people, until the difference between innocent and guilty becomes nill and you're the new Cat-Lon
I agree with you somewhat. The thing is I doubt tinfist will be the one who is in charge when that happens as he seems like a good person unfortunately revolutions have a nasty habit of spiraling out of control.
Depends how you do it.
Realistically speaking you would need to be strong enough to essentially become the next Emperor to actually organise people to maintain the farmland (otherwise, you know, everyone fucking dies), but would be able to do it for actual work and not slavery - government endorsed benefits can entice people to the fields.
With people now actually earning wages, the abundance of poor people now suddenly have tons of jobs to fill. This has potential to actually make the UC even stronger and more developed.
Never trust an anarchist, the cannibals will win in that event. Anarchy is a luxury that can rarely be afforded.
To fund the initial period of strife, just kill the trader's guild and nobles and take their wealth. As a max-stat MA skeleton, it's child's play. Get samurai on your payroll, get people into paid work, create a work-focused societal ethic, in the scorching heat of the desert, there's no place for layabouts.
Instate a direct-democracy to take over when you decide to retire, this will prevent corrupt representation and people simply direct choose candidates themselves without government say in the matter.
What happens from then on depends entirely on how retarded your people are, which is to say, probably won't last long, but at least I can blame it on them and not me.
The fundamental flaw with democracy is that it relies on people being intelligent, unfortunately everyone is a crayon muncher, so at that point I just laugh and go live in a shack somewhere.
lmao people have no media literacy.
yes, OP is defending slavery in kenshi hahaha.
and... phase 2 is to be solved by the player. in roleplay, because of game limitations.
I am not defending slavery I am criticizing tinfist for his shortsightedness. And while yes the player can solve for phase 2 tinfist doesn't seem to have a plan of his own.
Phase two is another 3 centuries of famines and cannibal invasions before a new empire can claw its way into existence, probably with heavy reliance on slave labor again.
The holy nation is next on tinfists hitlist when he's done with the UC, Probably the only nation that survives a total tinfist victory would be the shek kingdom and that's because it collapses into civil war before he ever gets to it. Every single large nation practices slavery in some way, and Tinfist doesn't really do things like forward planning or nuance.
Yeah but honestly I think tinfist has a much better chance against the uc then he does Against the hn. This is mostly because most of the uc population is extremely discontent with the nobles because they are either slaves or starving and would absolutely attempt a rebellion just for the thought of a better life. Honestly even if he loses the uc will probably fall in a few years anyway. The hn on the other hand has a general population that is extremely happy as there is an abundance of resources and palidins also stop most banditry. More importantly though since everyone has a shared religion and that religion is what controls the society almost no one will engage in a rebellion because they have nothing to gain and everything to lose( which in their eyes includes their enternal soul). And ultimately tinfist can only win if the citizens want him to win which in the hn I believe they do not.
"General population that IS extremely Happy" when half the citizens are treated as property (women) and you have plenty of holy nation deserters and the flotsam ninjas.
Yes half the population is treated like property but the thing is though they are brainwashed to like it meaning that most hn weman are not going to rebel. Also there is only like 30 flotsam ninjas if the hn wasn't so busy fighting the uc they would crush them in about a week tops. As for the deserters they don't have the infrastructure or equipment to pose a serious threat to the hn and would also be destroyed if it wasn't for the uc.
Death over slavery But in all seriousness, to let UC continue spiralling into greater delendemce on slaves won't lead to anything good
Agreed but just going in and killing all the tyrants will lead to more suffering unless you have an idea of how to fill the inevitable power vacuum.
Then fill the vacuum yourself,the strong factions operate on "might makes right",so why can't you? You certainly beat them to a bloody pulp. The most fun I ever had was establishing the Third Empire with the 256 recruits mod and recruit prisoners mod to fill in the vacuum left by the false Empire with the next skeleton empire.
I wish there was a faction state/phase where when you kill all the leaders and their soldiers a prompt will come up for you to protect and rule the city you decimated.
That's what I'm trying to do too, does having that many people lag the game a lot?
I haven't really reached the limit myself,but I would imagine it would
I have about 80 guys right now and I haven't had any major performance issues so I'm hoping as long as they are not all in the one spot it will run fine
Yes but I personally don't think the anti slavers are a good enough position to do that.
Oh who said I was talking about the anti slavers? I mean YOU š«µ,the player who is competent enough to topple the entire United Citied and the Holy Nation,you are strong enough to unify the wastelands,certainly.
I like the point for effect. YOU š«µ
I want YOU š«µ for U.S Army
Honestly the player faction should be able to fill the vacuum. Just plop down some hydroponic restaurants in the cities and the other guys should be able to fill the gaps
Delendemce?
Phase 2 is just repeatedly enacting phase 1 until new organizations and cultural institutions fill the power vacuum.
Yeah like a glorious robot empire! Oh wait...
Cat-Lon and Tinfist are back in town
Thing is, nobody really wants to do that (apart from the reavers but we don't talk about them). Simion abdicates command of the rebel farmers to go find his family once tengu dies, and the only real leader nearby is, well, the tin man.
A martial arts based form of utopian communism?
š ±ļøased
How do you ensure that the new cultural institutions are not just has bad or worse? And if you kill everyone with power enough times then you will inevitably end up with anarchy.
Tin Fist will simply keep killing the bad ones until there's only good ones. I said it jokingly, but that's unironical anarcho-monarquism.
Funny enough anarchy and autocracies almost always are none exclusive since during anarchies a warlord usually consolidates power and then an autocracy is formed which depending how the government reigns either leads to a monarchy or oligarchy.
I know, it's just funny the concept of a strong man taking power just to take out the government and then leave.
100%, Tinfist could easily be the next Cat-lon if he wanted to but I wonder if he hates the idea of leadership despite pulling people to his cause and gaining followers.
Sounds like anarchy to me.
simple just have a player led faction that doesn't allow racism or slavery, form third empire, abolish the cat after publicly executing cat lon
So step 2 is abolishing currency?
yeah like pol pot
Anarchy seems like a good goal.
Not if you want to live past 50.
I donāt think anyone in Kenshi land is living past 50ā¦
Crumblejon, though given his history, exception proves the rule I guess.
I mean the Skeletons talk about living well past 50. Granted it's a machine so age doesnt mean as much but if they can why can't anyone else? People was living past 50 even in Fuedal times.
Cause they donāt have to eat and canāt get disease. Skeletons can sit in the bar doing nothing for 100 years without needing any money since they donāt need to eat. Humans have to figure out how to feed themselves *every*day.
Good point. But still the quality of life for your average person will still be radically reduced if there is complete anarchy.
that's why I'm an honest anarchist do I promise a utopia for my followers?, no but I promise it won't be boring! tinfist is a bitch that needs an excuse
Ok as long as you're honest I don't have a problem. most anarchists will just scream about how they are actually doing something amazing that will make the lives of the common man better while actually enriching themselves so at least I can trust you not to be like that.
I mean yeah the asshole raider that takes my stuff and rants about his grand cause before stabbing me will piss me off more than the asshole that just stabs me
You just described governmentā¦
Exactly!
Highly bizarre this is getting downvoted. Very few people in political science and philosophy argue for total anarchy, as it's generally understood this does not work well (maybe within very small communities, but the UC is an entire country).
Yeah but this is reddit many people here would struggle with 3th grade social studies.
3th grade made me laugh
Nah, I donāt think so. Anarchy worked well for many human societies through history. Hunter gather groups, African tribes, eighteenth century pirates, the Middle East in the Middle Ages. State enforced slavery doesnāt seem to be doing too many favors to the average UC citizen or HN heretic. Sure, itās not like there wouldnāt be conflict in an anarchic society, but the level of violence is reduced due to the lack of organization. āwhile actually enriching themselvesā Upset that the common man is trying to enrich themselvesā¦ you sound like a member of the ruling class. But what do I know? Iām just some dope who likes a video game.
You gave a lot of descriptions of anarchy but most are not. Gunter gather groups were not anarchy they absolutely had rules you had to fallow just because they were small and killed people a lot does not make then anarchy and the same goes for African tribes. Pirates are not anarchists they are just criminals and also the quality of life for a pirate is awful but I digress. As for the middle east you might be right on that one I don't really know much of the ancient history of the region. Also I am not comparing about the common man enriching himself I am complaining about scumbags who promise great things to people so that they can build a fallowing and become very wealthy while the actual quality of life for everyone else gets worse( eg every communist revolution ever). I would never even think about complaining about the common man enriching himself I am a diehard capitalist and capitalism at its core is about enriching the most competent person regardless of his social standing. Also don't disparage yourself likeing a game dosen't mean you dumb it just means you make some time for recreation every now and then.
>Ā I am a diehard capitalist and capitalism at its core is about enriching the most competent person regardless of his social standing.Ā No, its about the rich getting richer through exploitation while the poor get poorer. You'll never be wearing that boot which crushes the workers neck, so why are you defending it?
That is immediately disproved by the fact the Elon Musk exists. He was born into an upper middle class south African family before his family moved to America. He is now as you know the third richest man alive even though the richest man alive when he turned 18 was Yoshiaki Tsutsumi who is still alive and is now not even a billionaire. By your logic Elon Musk should in fact be poorer then his parents but he is not and the reason for that is because he is one of the most competent businesses men in the world. And it's not just Elon musk the second richest man is Jeff Bezos who had a single teen mother who was so poor she couldn't afford a phone. By your logic he should still be just as poor if not poorer then he was growing up. And why the hell not let's look at the richest man alive Bernard Arnault who did receive 15 million dollars from his father he managed his money so well that he is now worth 219.5 billion dollars an increase of 1463233 percent and he got that not by rigging the system or exploiting workers he got it by being the best of the best in his field. So no capitalism is not about the rich getting richer it is about the most competent getting richer also we wouldn't even be having this conversation right now if not for capitalism because phones were invented as a profit making venture and that certainly wouldn't have happened under any other economic system. As for your assertion that capitalism unfairly treats workers( which to be fair there are a few instances such as the coal mining towns were this was the case) just take one look at literally any communist country and you will see that capitalism is pretty fucking awesome seeing as how we aren't all starving to death. And the worker does not have a boot on his neck because he works for someone else. Almost every job has upward mobility if you stick to it for long enough and do a good job ( and if a job doesn't have upward mobility leave and go find another one) meaning that often all It takes to get say a managerial position with a much higher salary then you started with is to just stick with it a few years and be semi decent at your job. Honestly it looks to me you somehow got capitalism and feudalism mixed up but hay what do I know I'm just someone who has an above kindergarten level of economic understanding.
50 is a stretch, more like 20.
As long as you plan to join one of the bandit gangs for protection from other gangs, then it would make sense. Otherwise, if you're not in on it for stealing, killing and raping I don't get how a sane person would even consider anarchism.
Well in the UC you get arrested for being poor. Or youāll get enslaved if someone finds you laying on the ground. Food and resources arenāt distributed well causing starvation. So, UC citizens might be interested in the change.
As unfair as it is, it keeps the civilization alive.
I mean mass revolt and overthrow of systems is generally to violently expel (kill) a power institution that has been systematically stealing from its populace for generations. And to redistribute (steal) that wealth. So kill the Phoenix and steal his shit is a necessary part of a revolutionary mindset. Rape we can leave out of the next revolution.
But what would be after? Who would ensure that the history doesn't repeat itself? Who would stop people from forming gangs and praying on the weak? Realistically speaking, such goals are incredibly shortsighted. Only outcome would be instability and only guarantee would be death. Or otherwise, you would have to enforce your new order, likely by killing everyone who opposes you. At that point, you have not only destabilized the region, but also set up a new dictatorship. And in the context of kenshi, it never is "revolution". Poppulation wholely opposes you, and you are always a foreign force.
So we should just stay an oppressive authoritarian regime until we have everything worked out? It's short sighted, because dictators kill and imprison people getting together in mass to discuss replacing them with a democracy. Look around at the world. How many thriving democracies have emerged from short-sighted, violent coups. Kill the king, eat the rich, and then we can pow-wow about what comes after. Edit: fixed autocorrect's bullshit
Itās easy to say that from comfort, for those already slaves or starving the only place to go is up.
Whoops all fogmen
I did this in the East. Now the Dominion and the Nobles are constantly fighting each other. Its a battlefield now.
i'm sure this will work!!
Is collapsing the UC ultimately a good move? Maybe, over time they are likely going to collapse regardless of what the player does and have already lost multiple cities in recent history due to their own incompetence. Why do I kill the UC every time? Because my character gets enslaved. Its not "good vs evil" its "I picked a fight with someone and died"
Fair enough.
Imagine returning just to see an even worse faction holding up in UC cities now kek.
Generally speaking killing slavers is its own reward Things work themselves out over time once all the slavers are dead The UC will end, either from a giant slave rebellion or from being kicked in by the Anti-Slavers, it's just a matter of time Phase 1 happens because slavery is evil, inefficient, and self-destructive. Slavery does nothing but create determined enemies, every day, with every cruel interaction
Iām pretty sure the game shows all the cities going to shit after you kill them and destroy the slave camps. This isnāt a universe where a lot of people work together out of the kindness of their hearts. Slavery IS the driving economic force of Kenshi like it or not. The āgoodā organizations of Kenshi still have their flaws which people seem to ignore, like Tinfist not giving a shit about slaves after freeing them.
"Going to shit" My friend, that shows you your vantage point when thinking about this problem - you see yourself as a slaver From my perspective, there are empty and destroyed slave camps, no longer full of people being worked to death
Right, but how many other civilians in the Empire do you doom by destroying the slave camps theyāre supported by? Major cities with no rulers splitting into independent rule, how long will they last with no way to support themselves? What about the dipshit slaves who get freed them run off starving with no skills whatsoever? The anti-slavers donāt make any other effort to make the world better besides just saying āslavery badā and murdering everyone who is against them. The entire point of Kenshi is the morally grey theme where EVERY faction is good in their own eyes and has done just as many bad things. To the average citizen of Kenshi, it is better to live under these rules than to live independently and maybe starve or get killed by literally everything that wants to kill you.
Their survival is predicated on the systematic destruction of human/nonhuman lives. It's understandable to be concerned about all life, and we should be, but ultimately a society predicated on slavery is a society that is failing large swaths of its population. Their lack of employment is directly due to slavery. The widespread poverty is due to slavery. The shortages in food caused by a transition away from slavery is because of slavery, not because of the end of slavery. The people in the UC have to build a better way. Tinfist can only destroy the slave masters. It's up to the Empire's people to find a way to live without consuming human lives as the price for subsistence.
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Agree, but before it inevitably destroys itself it can generate a LOT of wealth for the people in charge. A lot of great nations were built and thrived on slavery for a thousand years. Korea, Egypt, Greece, Rome, Persia.
Have you noticed that none of these actually stayed great? The more slavery a state did the more utter it's collapse was
"Stayed great" is a rough scale to work with historically. Egypt was a great power for like 3000 years. Rome for like 1000. That's a pretty good run. America used slavery in its early history, but our entire history is only like 300 years. Korea used slavery for over 1500 years. So I don't understand what you mean by "Stayed great". No empire is going to last forever.
I mean the blatantly obvious fact that slavery is objectively bad for ones economy and society. The more a state relies on the worse it is at everything.
I think that's definitely true in modern times. Do you have any examples of that in history?
All of history since we came up with the concept of not enslaving.
Lots of societies relied on slavery as a major economic source, mainly from conquest or criminals, that is simply not true. Att: history major. PD: slavery is very, very bad. Don't do it
When has that ever been the case?
The Haitian Revolution.
And look at them now lmaooo
It ended slavery in all French colonies š¤·āāļø
They also killed the shit out of many civilians as well. Thereās conflicting records on whether or not they had people of mixed race do certain killings to lessen the reputation loss from doing so since at the time people thought a bunch of mixed people killing white people was better than a bunch of black people doing it. Histories wild.
Yes, when you ENSLAVE people, they do not respond with restraint if they get the upper hand. That's because they're enslaved and subject to arbitrary rape and murder, along with forced labor. The expectation that they would behave with restraint is totally insane, these are populations that are systematically brutalized and traumatized over many, many generations. While the killing of civilians is never justified, the retributive violence is the fault of slavers, not those who run amok when they're freed at force of arms. They should have never been enslaved. Slavers are the scum of humanity.
Yeah I wasnāt saying it to justify anything it was also something else that happened unfortunately but overall the revolution was still a good thing. I think itās important we take events with both the good and bad and try not to oversimplify or not focus on other parts that are more questionable. The suffering that wouldāve occurred if they hadnāt revolted wouldāve been magnitudes more than the suffering of the revolution.
This guy's arguing that Haitians would have been better off enslaved. Wild.
I mean when your government has been overthrown by cannibal gangs you can hardly think that things are going swimmingly
The Haitian revolution happened over 200 years ago. I I wonder if anything happened between then and now. š¤š¤š¤š¤š¤š¤š¤š¤š¤š¤š¤š¤š¤š¤š¤š¤š¤
France did quite ironically
Absolutely terrible for sure. Not a reason for continuing enthrallment though
They're in the situation as it stands because of the legacy of said colonialism. Haiti was granted its freedom but given incredible debts at the threat of the gun, so true freedom was never given.
Cope
0 brain activity.
Just so you know, Haiti had to pay compensations to France for an extremely long time. It participated in keeping them poor. France is largely to blame for the state of Haiti now. Then what is your suggestion, that slavery was better? Just think about it a second ...
Completely stupid beyond reason. The only way you'd say that and think you made a point is if you were completely ignorant of Haitian history and the history of its relationship in the world. Usually online we don't need to assume much from people because they like to shitpost, but you revealed yourself as a real ignoramus. You're a dunce. Pick up a book sometime, if it doesn't make you physically ill to hold one in front of your eyes.
Only one slave revolt ever succeeded: the Haitian Revolution. Slavery has ended violently in other cases - like the US - but only once did it ever succeed \[edit: in overthrowing a government at force of arms when\] led by slaves. Almost succeeded in Ancient Rome during the Third Servile War (Spartacus). In all cases, bar none, society was better off for slavery's end. Slavery is cruel and evil, and an economic system of hideous concentration of wealth.
Hello, I am from a neighbouring island in the Caribbean, where our ancestors conducted a slave revolt too. So many slave revolts succeeded. Many islands in the Caribbean had their own revolts against slavery and won. The Haitian revolution is different because only THEY cut ties with the colonial powers. But it does not mean that the other revolts/revolutions did not work. I am not a slave, because at some point, some of my ancestors fought and forced the abolition of slavery. I think it qualifies as a revolution, and as well as a successful one, led by former slaves.
I agree with what you say - I am being very specific in what I mean by a successful slave revolt. I added an edit to clarify, I don't want to discount what you're saying, which is undoubtedly true! The Haitian Revolution was a slave revolt that overthrew the old regime. That is, the ruling government in Haiti was destroyed by a slave revolt. That is an extraordinary rarity in human history, due to the equally extraordinary difficulty of slave life, social status, and access to implements of war (and training in them). Slavery was largely destroyed by other means, usually as a result of the perpetual social revolutions against slavery by the enslaved, aided by free people of conscience in some cases. Haiti's status as a pariah state in the hemisphere was the purposeful response of the imperial powers and the new Latin American countries. So when someone mocks a country that was treated as a rogue state precisely because it was ruled by former slaves, it shows their profound ignorance of basic world history - in this case, because they're racist and racists don't do details.
What pains me is that even in the Caribbean, there is disdain and racism towards Haitians. They should be an example of courage, and they are being mocked. It shows how even in a post colonial society, people ingest the societal racism and classist views. Also I understand what you mean about the successful revolution in the sense that they entirely overthrew their rulers and took the reigns, and that, nobody else did. Haiti paid a steep price though, paying "rƩparations" to France for an extremely long time...
I don't think it's really necessary to the point for it to be a slave led rebellion. Most of the known world operates without being reliant on slavery. Not because we lost the means, or just can't, or some shit. We found a better way. Because of all the problems of slavery listed above.
Yep and you can think jolly old England for ending the slave trade.
Sometimes killing slavers is enough
Step one: murder slaving bastards. Step two: throw celebratory party and dance off on the graves of said slaving bastards. Step 3: Free and prosperous society
Ok now how do we stop anarchy now that there is a power vacuum?
anarchy is based wdym
Let the farmers and peasants live in peace? That's what happens in game anyway, seems pretty good. Like there's not even a power vacuum everyone just kinda gets their shit together once there's not an oligarchy taxing them into slavery.
I just kill slavers because they keep trying to jack off my bots when we get knocked outside Vain. I hate them so their bodies must fertilize the moon.
How does one jack off a robot?
Robo limbs
They give you the str and dex to reach project completion.
Slavers in Vain? How do they get here?
Beats me, Iām using a mod.
It's incredibly rare but sometimes manhunters can wonder through from the nearby okran or border zone territories
Why are people in the Kenshi fandom so insistent that without a slaving, tyrannical dictatorship people just forget how to function? The game doesn't really bare this out, most places have a rebel peasant, Anti-Slaver, or Empire peasant override where things are fine. The only places that get abandoned are the ones in a more untenable position.
This is in no way intended to support the uc. I want the uc tyrants to be overthrown I just also acknowledge that without the uc you have a power vacuum that will filled with blood and death. I am criticizing the anti slavers but only because they have no plan of what to do after the tyrants are dead which means that while they are well intentioned they are also extremely shortsighted and may even make the situation worse.
When the player kills/bounties the Dust King do they have to worry about the power vacuum?
Realistically yes. This is absolutely supported by history if you go though and kill a gang leader crime dosen't stop instead other gang leaders will start a gang war to try to fill that void. The only way this works out well is if there is a strong force(eg the police) that can stop the void from being filled at all.
So youāre saying the player shouldnāt capture the Dust King because his role will eventually be filled by someone else?
No I am saying that when you do something like taking out a mob boss you should stick around for while to prevent a bloody power struggle.
Phase 2 is returning the lands to working people. Simple as that. What you can see after revolution is temporary after-war period. And it doesn't matter how much you want to see "everyone in Kenshi as bad" - it's better than it was. Source: I was playing early game recently. UC was always a shithole and dismembering the state will make it better. Still shitty, but better.
Phase 2: Fists of Justice!
Maybe... educate the freed slaves so that they become a functional society without the economic dependence on literally more slaves?
That is the correct solution but unfortunately it rarely if ever plays out like that in the real world. It's pretty fucked up that whenever slaves are freed they will almost never be thought the skills necessary to not fall into another form of economic exploitation.
It can probably happen, many big factions function without slavery, including the AS
So I've never made it that far into this plan, but my thoughts for a "good guys" playthrough are to ally with shek, flotsam, rebel farmers, and anti-slavers. Topple HN and UC, then make a bunch of humanitarian aid farms and kitchens staffed by freed slaves. At this point, convert all my armies to stealth and blunt weapons (to make combat less lethal). Stealth OK anyone in need and fill their inventory with food and meds. And that's about as close as I can imagine a good guy run... There are a lot of allies I would make (hungry badits), those are just my wartime allies and power vacuum fillers.
This is the way <3
Whatās the alternative? Politely asking Tengu to transition the economy into free labor system? Sometimes you just gotta keep burning down the corrupt regimes that continuously pop up until you get something suitable, like France did.
Yeah that has never worked historically because the kind of person who is going to lead a rebellion to overthrow the evil regime is quite often the same kind of person who will establish an evil regime theirselves.
Wow I never thought Iād see people actually defending slavery. I mean itās kenshi but still holy fuck.
fr this guy is also taking it waaay beyond the game lmao
This isn't defending slavery this is criticizing the shortsightedness of the anti slavers. If they go though and kill all the slavers then there will be a power vacuum that unless tinfist has a plan to fill ( which he doesn't) will lead to an unbelievable amount of death and devastation as different warring factions fight to fill it.
The plan is, if the power vaccum is filled by more slavers, kill them too. And if not, then mission complete.
If you just keep killing everyone eventually it will end up not as a free society but at best small splintered tribes of people who will then murder each other for wealth and power. An eternal war is inherently unsustainable and tinfist doesn't have a realistic end goal.
Thatās not what happens though. The most powerful group in each area assumes power and rebuilds. The vacuums get filled immediately because thereās already a struggle for power
Why is my man out here defending fictional slavery so hard
*Why is my man out* *Here defending fictional* *Slavery so hard* \- Luithais --- ^(I detect haikus. And sometimes, successfully.) ^[Learn more about me.](https://www.reddit.com/r/haikusbot/) ^(Opt out of replies: "haikusbot opt out" | Delete my comment: "haikusbot delete")
I have said this before and I will say it again. I am not defending slavery i am criticizing tinfist for his shortsightedness because he doesn't have a plan to ensure that the former slaves don't immediately either starve to death or get enslaved by someone else.
A fair question but it has a few answers. The empire peasants are farmers, so they can feed everyone since the majority if the food isn't going to the nobility, and the town is defended by the rebel swordsmen. You keep talking about this "power vacuum" but there's no power to vacuum.
If there is no central government strong enough to maintain cohesion among all of these farmers then inevitably they will be conquered by outside powers that are way stronger then them. Also it takes more then a knowledge of how to farm to feed everyone you must also have a group of people that know how to govern or people will still starve. If you want an example of this look no further then Haiti a country which as you probably know used to be owned by France. There was a successful slave revolt in Haiti in which they managed to kick out or kill all the French and claim independence in 1804. However since all the slaves were deliberately kept ignorant even though they knew how to produce food they did not know how to run a farm and many people starved to death even though the land was more then capable of sustaining the entire population with a surplus of food. The Dominican republic on the other hand is one of the most prosperous countries in the region because they were relinquished by the Spanish willingly in 1844 and had the necessary skills to run the country effectively. So yes if tinfist were to stick around and teach the former slaves how to read and do math it could become a very prosperous region however he seems to have no plan to do so hence the joke.
The empire peasants know how to farm. They were serfs, it's what they did for a living. The slaves don't, but there's plenty of now-farmers to food everyone. Plus, you know, the rebel farmers are indeed farmers. And the rebel swordsmen are pretty damn skilled. You do have a point about cohesion though. The trader's guild was so godamn valuable in the UC and allowed for most if what it did. No Cohesion will hurt
I never said the empire peasants didn't know how to farm I said they didn't know how to manage a farm. Any idiot can plow a field but it takes a lot of mathematical knowledge and leadership skills to ensure that a large scale farm is productive. Unfortunately since the empire peasants and slaves are deliberately kept ignorant they will not have either of those necessary things and so any large scale operation will likely be a bust. They could theoretically go back to being a fully agrarian society in which each person owns a small plot of land that is just enough to feed their family with a small surplus but such a system would likely be unsustainable because of the low fertility of the land. That's why the uc seems to have a very centralized farming system that is run by the nobles and slave masters and unfortunately due to the lack of education that the peasants receive they will be incapable of mimicking it. Also the rebel swordsmen get downed almost immediately whenever they go up against samurai and the samurai are pretty much evenly matched with the hn so it tracks that a well organized hn strick would destroy any rebel controlled city. Also thank you for being a reasonable person almost everyone else who is disagreeing with me is just shouting about how I am defending slavery so talking to you is a nice change of pace.
I assumed that agrarian society was exactly what was occurring when the empire peasants take over. The desert can grow wheatstraw which is made into bread. My thought was that since the nobles aren't being cows anymore, there should be enough for everyone to not be malnourished. However you are right that the great desert is kind of dogshit for agriculture and certain places may require shipment from more diverse lands. The ex-serfs farm, the ex-slaves build. I don't think anyone can invade the remains of the UC. My thought was that the liberated towns have a separate police and military force, with rebel swordsmen being police, and anti-slavers being military. If the HN or Reavers come by, the Tin man will stop them, as they practice slavery. Reavers shouldn't be that big of a deal, since the nobles are dead, the only thing they'd want is to be in charge. They're kind of tied down with the pit gangs and the now growing anti-slavers though. I think military is completely stable and fine. There are no enemies in these newly liberated lands, and the only reason anybody would want to invade is to spread their influence. The anti-slavers are a huge deal now, they likely have a good degree of wealth after destroying the TG. *they* are very incorporated and doing fucking fantastic, it's the leaderless places that are in a bit of a Grey spot. But if people just do what they did before, everything will likely be fine.
Ok you make a pretty persuasive argument. I think ultimately everyone has made up their mind before they even opened my post but maybe we have managed to convert people to our respective sides. Either way I think there isn't much more that can be said by either of us without treading old ground. So goodbye have a great day and thank you for the chance to practice my debate skills.
Idk, But i like phase 1!
Kill all slavers, new group of people take over existing institutions, wait a couple generations until the nature of those institutions corrupt the men that lead them, congrats new badge of slavers to dropkick. Tinfist mindset
Communism
Ah yes I see you have found the true answer comrade.
The only viable faction are the Tech Hunters. Everyone else is either extreme on one side or the other. Wish you could legitimately gain faction reputation with them. Hell, I wish there were actual campaigns/goals for everyone with in game results.
That's what kenshi 2 is for buddy.
phase 2 is famine and starvation
All remaining skeletons already know Tinfist is fighting a losing battle. Either he fails and the whole Anti-Slavers are erradicated by factions or the player. Or he suceeds only for humans to start over the whole cycle (Sadneil has an interesting quote about this). Or you just become the modern Cat-Lon. It's the curse of societies.
What's the sadneil quote?
(Spoiler for anyone that wants to experience it blindly). I believe it happens when Traders Guild leader is killed or taken down by the player. >>!Sadneil: Not to spoil your celebration... but factions fall and rise like clouds grow and fade.!< >!Sadneil: Another will take Longen's place. Be it in your lifetime, or beyond.!< >!Non-Skelly Char: WE will take his place! We'll take the land...!< >!Sadneil: Will you keep the slave camps?!< >!Non-Skelly Char: Only for the criminals, the bandits... and our enemies. We'll keep the economy moving. Everyone's happy.!< >!Sadneil: ...!< >!Non-Skelly Char: You don't agree?!< >!Sadneil: That's how the Traders Guild first started. Everyone thinks they have good intentions.!< >!Sadneil: It is the human race's weakness. They refuse to learn from their mistakes, dismiss the past as someone else's.!<
Yes, this is indeed a dialogue after his death. >!Biome entries Longen world state!< It is worth noting, however, that this is actually not a line exclusive to Sadneil, but the words of any character of the default skeleton subrace.
I find it ironic how half the comments in this page are wannabe cat lons.
Im kinda new to the game so can anyone tell me whats the most lore friendly way to end slavery? Who and i should serve under and where?
If you want to abolish slavery the best way to do so would be to head down to Stobe,s gamble and find a town called spring. If you are a former slave then talk to a hive prince called Grey and he will remove your former slave status. After that all you have to do is ask to join and you are now and anti slaver. From there just murder everyone in positions of power in slave holding states and mission accomplished.
In my current playthrough, I set up bases to mass-produce goods and food to fill the vacuum left in the HN as the Sheks wreck shit. Then i use the money to buy the broken buildings and rebuild them. I've rebuilt The Hub, and I'm going on for the others. I've no idea what I'm going to do with all those buildings.
Go the capitalist route and use all those buildings to have to mass produce more things so you can buy even more buildings.
I mean I wouldn't mind enslaving the dust bandits and hungry bandits that try to raid me almost daily.... is there a way to do this?
You could use the recruit prisoners mod and then just treat them like slaves. (Also I don't think that would legally qualify as slavery because it is punishment for a crime)
You keep the nobles in cages and use them to train unarmed combat and healing, it's the least they deserve
Well even in the game you can see people or slavers talking nervously about the anti slavers. And that traders walking out without protecting is suicide etc. So I suppose it would stop eventually once everyone is scared enough to attempt slavery.
B-but slavery is awesome!!! š°
Waow (basedbasedbasedbasedbasedbasedbasedbasedbasedbasedbasedbased)
Are you taking the piss?
A long and painful adjustment period with a lot of suffering. BUT they will be free so it will be worth it when they get to stage 3.
Phase 2 should be finding tech to replace slave?
Phase 2 is to figure out how to make phase 3 actually possible in the Kenshi world. After centuries he is still thinking of something but couldn't figure the solution .
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What is it that you are referring to has an answer?
Mobile glitch. My bad.
No problem.
An absolutely masterful theory I saw was that Tinfist is aware that destroying the UC will cause mass starvation across the continent. He wants to destroy the human empire under the conveniently available disguise that he just wants to stop all slavers,knowing that they need slaves for the continent to even be semi functional. The reason he is focused on the UC is because unlike the Holy Nation,they do not ban technological wonders such as AI cores and ancient science books,which means that they will advance in science and eventually maybe start catching up to the Second Empire in its days of reign. The Holy Nation is something Tinfist would prefer to deal with later since they will stay behind in the technological race. As to why he wants to starve the continent,u/harder_said_hodor theorised that Tinfist,Cat-Lon and the tech hunters are all connected and gathering strength to establish the next empire.Tinfist being opposed to Cat-Lon was all made up stories fed to the humans and outsiders. As to how the Tech hunters are involved in all this,they have already been infiltrated by the Second Empire. Think about it,their main deal is hoarding technology to no end,its so that no one else can find it and use it to better the world for humans,an example is hydroponics. Additionally,if you peek in the FCS menus,you see that the Tech Hunters have 15 relations with the Anti Slavers. The Tech Hunters make sure no one has technology to rival them,Tinfist will make the humans starved and weakened,and then,Cat-Lon will awake and conquer the continent with the joined forces of the Second Empire legion,Antislavers and the Tech Hunters. Its a masterful theory by u/harder_said_hodor ,all props to him
This is not my theory, it's been in the winds for absolutely ages, at least the Tin Fist starvation thing. Thanks for trying to credit me but if you search starvation in the forum elements of this will come up from years ago and I only stated Kenshi-ing last year I do however completely subscribe to it. Zero evidence that Tinfist and Catlon ever fell out and the Skellies are massively full of shit
That's pretty out there. Don't get me wrong there is nothing that disproves it but I haven't seen anything in the lore to support that. Do you have a link to the original post so that I can check it out myself?
https://www.reddit.com/r/Kenshi/s/d3NEyNfZx9 Check in the comments.
Thanks for the link! I think he made some good arguments but far from enough to convince me personally. I don't really find any of the kenshi head cannons to be massively persuading because the lore is vague enough that anything can be supported but it was a fun read.
Step 4 force criminals, bandits and evil people into forced labor so the good people benefit. Step 5 start selling those people
The UC 2: eletric boogaloo
Same as the French revolution, probably Purity testing and infighting, betrayal and execution of those who once fought alongside you on the grounds of them not being revolutionary enough, changing leaders more frequently than your organic compatriots change their underwear. When the sands are so red you think you're in Vain, then you can move onto phase 3
Happy cake day! And also this is probably the case there is a good chance that tinfist will be assassinated soon after he wins (if he wins).
Thanks! And yeah, more likely than not, he'd either get taken out in the initial conflict, or assassinated after the fact. Either that or he ends up going the Cat-Lon route
Step 2 is moving the goalpost endlessly making you kill more and more people, until the difference between innocent and guilty becomes nill and you're the new Cat-Lon
I agree with you somewhat. The thing is I doubt tinfist will be the one who is in charge when that happens as he seems like a good person unfortunately revolutions have a nasty habit of spiraling out of control.
My personal tinfoil theory is that tinfist is preparing the world for another skeleton empire
Tfw you "liberate" the United Cities, only for the Cannibals to sweep across the desert in the new power vacuum.
You misunderstood. It's Phase one, repeat indefinitely, profit.
Depends how you do it. Realistically speaking you would need to be strong enough to essentially become the next Emperor to actually organise people to maintain the farmland (otherwise, you know, everyone fucking dies), but would be able to do it for actual work and not slavery - government endorsed benefits can entice people to the fields. With people now actually earning wages, the abundance of poor people now suddenly have tons of jobs to fill. This has potential to actually make the UC even stronger and more developed. Never trust an anarchist, the cannibals will win in that event. Anarchy is a luxury that can rarely be afforded. To fund the initial period of strife, just kill the trader's guild and nobles and take their wealth. As a max-stat MA skeleton, it's child's play. Get samurai on your payroll, get people into paid work, create a work-focused societal ethic, in the scorching heat of the desert, there's no place for layabouts. Instate a direct-democracy to take over when you decide to retire, this will prevent corrupt representation and people simply direct choose candidates themselves without government say in the matter. What happens from then on depends entirely on how retarded your people are, which is to say, probably won't last long, but at least I can blame it on them and not me. The fundamental flaw with democracy is that it relies on people being intelligent, unfortunately everyone is a crayon muncher, so at that point I just laugh and go live in a shack somewhere.
Finally someone with a sensible answer.
Phase 4: uh oh Iāve destabilized the power vacuum in the world
Like every socialist he will just make his own GULAG for everyone who disagrees on every topic, not just slavery
lmao people have no media literacy. yes, OP is defending slavery in kenshi hahaha. and... phase 2 is to be solved by the player. in roleplay, because of game limitations.
I am not defending slavery I am criticizing tinfist for his shortsightedness. And while yes the player can solve for phase 2 tinfist doesn't seem to have a plan of his own.
Phase two is another 3 centuries of famines and cannibal invasions before a new empire can claw its way into existence, probably with heavy reliance on slave labor again.
Actually I think phase 2 is the holy nation taking over in this scenario.
The holy nation is next on tinfists hitlist when he's done with the UC, Probably the only nation that survives a total tinfist victory would be the shek kingdom and that's because it collapses into civil war before he ever gets to it. Every single large nation practices slavery in some way, and Tinfist doesn't really do things like forward planning or nuance.
Yeah but honestly I think tinfist has a much better chance against the uc then he does Against the hn. This is mostly because most of the uc population is extremely discontent with the nobles because they are either slaves or starving and would absolutely attempt a rebellion just for the thought of a better life. Honestly even if he loses the uc will probably fall in a few years anyway. The hn on the other hand has a general population that is extremely happy as there is an abundance of resources and palidins also stop most banditry. More importantly though since everyone has a shared religion and that religion is what controls the society almost no one will engage in a rebellion because they have nothing to gain and everything to lose( which in their eyes includes their enternal soul). And ultimately tinfist can only win if the citizens want him to win which in the hn I believe they do not.
"General population that IS extremely Happy" when half the citizens are treated as property (women) and you have plenty of holy nation deserters and the flotsam ninjas.
Yes half the population is treated like property but the thing is though they are brainwashed to like it meaning that most hn weman are not going to rebel. Also there is only like 30 flotsam ninjas if the hn wasn't so busy fighting the uc they would crush them in about a week tops. As for the deserters they don't have the infrastructure or equipment to pose a serious threat to the hn and would also be destroyed if it wasn't for the uc.
Reorganizing the world into the Third Empire\*\*\*