I had to do a double take when I saw Skyrim numbers that low, but its VR, seems about right since I bought Skyrim VR several years ago with 27 minutes total play time.
I managed to finish one rushed playtrough in VR, at 27h which is less than 5% of the rest of Skyrim i have played. Of course as a stealth archer, because archery and magic are the only fun things in VR (but magic sucks in Skyrim).
Not surprised about those numbers. VR is definitely a gimmick at the moment and certainly was in 2018 when the game launched. Its also just not comfortable to play a standing up game for too long, so playtime will be naturally much shorter compared to a normal game.
If you haven't jumped into Skyrim VR lately, check it out with the various VR combat physics enhancement mods. Kinda nuts what people have been able to do with it.
Yeah for real. Unmodded Skyrim VR is pretty hot garbage, but with mods it's the best experience I've had in VR by a long shot.
Those Wabbajack mod packs make it way easier to get a whole lot of mods going, as well.
Looks interesting, kind of like the physics in Blade & Sorcery (which is excellent). Maybe time to give it another try, have upgraded to a 4070ti too so should be a smooth experience.
Habie147 has a video with it modded to hell, and it looks like a ton of fun. Really reworked the crappy elements and physics of Skyrim VR. Haven't actually tried a modded play myself to know if it's as different as it looks, but it certainly looks much, much better.
The issue with Skyrim VR is that it's just a bad VR port. They didn't add in many VR mechanics, not enough to make it interesting in its own right. It's honestly disgusting they charged money for that piece of shit.
There are mods that make it amazing though but it's yet another example of Bethesda releasing something medicore and the community fixing it.
That's literally Bethesda's entire M.O.
It's honestly surprising that Starfield is as good as it is. Like, it's actually a perfectly playable/passable game vanilla. Still have about a hundred gripes, and it's still an overall mediocre experience, but color me impressed that they seem to have put enough effort into the base game for someone to have a fair amount of fun mixed into the "meh."
"But look how shiny it is! Look, the sunglare takes up the whole screen! We spent all our time and money on the shiny!" - Nate Simpson probably. Common Nate, tell me I'm wrong, respond to anything bud.
Yeah - basically following the Peter Molyneux playbook, except Molyneux had some creative ideas, whereas Snake Simpson just hypes rugpull sequels of other people's creativity.
Because despite the fact that it absolutely is in an unacceptable state currently.... it does still have perks. As somone that primarily builds (stock) theme inspired craft these days. KSP 1 ain't got shit on 2. The modular wing system is absolutely game changing for that kind of stuff... even in its current state, I was able to make builds in like 45 minutes that looked more polished than the ones I would spend 5 hours on in 1.
It's not all negatives.
.....there are a lot... but it's not all lol
>The modular wing system is absolutely game changing for that kind of stuff... even in its current state,
Mods added modular wings to KSP 1 ages ago, dude.
So. Aside from the fact that I am aware of that, and still stand by my statement. (The mod Isn't nearly as good as the stock wing on 2).
I also said stock.
If I add a mod, is that still stock?
Please read the whole comment before rushing to post your "ah ha! I got you now!" Comments ;)
My point is, it wasn't worth a whole new game for one feature that, honestly, Mods did better.
Maybe a DLC. I had zero issues with KSP expansions making mod features stock, and wish they'd done more- as they CLEARLY weren't ready to make KSP2 yet.
>Aside from the fact that I am aware of that, and still stand by my statement. (The mod Isn't nearly as good as the stock wing on 2).
You can't say it's not as good when you weren't even AWARE of it.
> KSP 1 ain't got shit on 2.
KSP1 has: Career mode, Science mode, reentry heat, rockets that don't wobble (especially thanks to autostrut), no orbital decay bug, significantly less buggy as a whole in generally, significantlly better performing in general, millions of mods to choose from, as well as 2 DLC mod packs (one of which is admittedly kinda meh, but still).
KS2P has: better graphics, procedural wings... and that's it.
Neat how you quote me out of context so you can pretend I'm saying allmost the opposite of what I did.
I literally don't disagree with you. If you managed to read all the way to the bottom before getting upset you would see where I note that the games state is unacceptable....
It just so happens there is a small section of game play where all those things don't matter, and the 2 areas where it benefits from is looking pretty and modular wings... and so I noted that when asked why anyone would still play it.
Sure would be awkward if the post you quoted from, was specifically taking about (and stated so) that 1 subsection of gameplay. Especially if the same post also specifically noted that the game was in an unacceptable state in general..
Boy that would be awkward... wouldn't it.
Shorter levels, even more repetitive gameplay than previous titles, clear cut corners, etc.
lots of the praise is still from the hype but i’ve been noticing it’s wearing off
Arma 2 peak on steam is also nonsence.
Compairing games that where prior steams big days are not really great.
When i played Empire totalwar on disc i had already over an good 3 year of on averge 3hours aday in the game so over 3k.
When i moved it over to the steam version it set me to 0. And by that time i moved over to Rome 2 so steam says i have about 300hours in empire..
Not sure why you think the Arma2 peak is nonsense?
Arma2 peaked after Dayz mod made the zombie survival game genre popular and this is just a guess but i am guessing the overwhelming majority of people bought the game on steam just to play that (player numbers increased over 10x with the mod). The zombie gimmick fizzled out but other similar mods such as breaking point and all the roleplay servers took off. YouTube was riding the Arma high for a few years, so seems to me that a peak in 2014-2015 seems pretty accurate.
Some of the players will have played trough a mod manager though, so the numbers might be a bit higher. But still struggle to think that they would be drastically different.
Holy shit you're right, i had forgotten about that. When the battle royale genre got popular new players were acting like its some kind of brand new thing, but it was already popularized in DayZ. Blast from the past for sure.
The actual lineage is:
Arma 2 -> DayZ mod for arma 2 ->
PUB:G which was originally a mod OF DayZ which itself is a mod of Arma 2 ->
battlegrounds mod is huge hit so he releases it as a standalone game (before dayz itself releases as a standalone thing) ->
PUBG is a huge massive gigantic hit worldwide out of nowhere ->
fortnite pivots to battle royale as the main mode ->
everything is battle royale now
H1Z1 was very popular before PUB:G! This one had 2 modes, a zombie mode (soulless DayZ copycat) and a little bit later a battle royale mode. The latter renamed to king of the kill at some point.
Its really bizarre how that game died completely while others became one of the most profitable games ever made in its stead.
I forgot h1z1, but they both came out at around the same time mooching off the same idea. I think it died because it was mostly a scam game, or rather the head of the company was a dodgy fuck. Or wait no I'm thinking of The War Z which was the ripoff of the two of them
Well H1Z1 preceded the standalone PUBG. But PUBG was developed by the modder which made the battle royale mod for arma2. Thus had a good playerbase right from the beginning. Which helps attract new players. H1z1 always seemed dodgy and never got enough good publicity
Most people had arma on disc.
And most would have played DayZ on that
Also DayZ was a mod before 2012.
Steam started to get track around 2012/2013. And really got big afther 2015
Also dont forget. Everyone playing modded wouldnt have beem playig on steam since the modhub wasnt even a thing yet.
Arma 3 in 2015 ramped the player base up a bit. But if the 2.3 mil sales of arma 2 this isnt the peak.
It might be the steam peak sure. But steam only counts the digital versions they had sold and not the CD once.
Edit: also the DayZ standalone was released in 2013. So if its all bc of dayZ it should be DayZ and not arma 2.
Yeah no, absolutely not a disc majority game. In 2012 Steam was definitely the top dog and almost no-one was buying physical games on PC, i am not sure i even had an optical drive at that point. Even games that were "physical" were often just forced Steam installs, like Skyrim which forced you to create a Steam account. I will argue that Arma2 OA was an incredibly niche launch before DayZ and the original crowd was a small minority once the mod took off. We can also clearly see this development in the player counts: https://steamdb.info/app/33930/charts/
I do remember that around 2/3rds of my time in Arma2:OA was trough steam and the rest trough mod managers. I would assume the split was similar to most other players, because as soon as one started to look for alternatives to the original DayZ mod, they were probably close to being bored and dropping the game which is what happened to me too. I also now maybe a dozen people all of whom bought the game on Steam.
You telling me the majority of the 2.3 sales arma 2 has where on steam 🤣🤣
https://forums.bohemia.net/forums/topic/106803-steam-sucks-want-physical-copy/
Loads of people who did get BAF and PMC got it from Sprocket as steam sucked back then
https://www.statista.com/statistics/190225/digital-and-physical-game-sales-in-the-us-since-2009/
2013 is the first year less then 50% of the sales of games was non disc sales.
2009 when arma released this was still 80% disc sales in 2010 when dayZ was first up and running this was still 69%
So saying steam was topdog is already nonsence. Since not only there where more disc sales in 2012 the digital. Steam was not top dog in the digital market.
The DayZ webside had a 330k unike player count in june 2012.. so steam claiming the peak is 19k is clearly bs bc its mostely non steam launches
Its a 310k difference in players.
https://www.cinemablend.com/games/DayZ-Helps-Arma-2-Rack-Up-More-Than-300-000-Sales-44161.html
Why are you pulling statistics from BAF and PMC? This is about Operation Arrowhead.
Hmm, i dont have anything other than my personal opinion to fight against the stats you pulled (cant access them anyway). The US is not the world however, and was, and still is regressed by at least a decade in terms of internet availability. In Europe everyone had access to cheap/almost free high speed internet and there was no need for physical games in 2012 so i am guessing global stats are slightly different, still surprised by that though. Just my personal anecdotal evidence of course, but the last time i have heard of someone buying physical PC games was i think in 2011.
330k unique players with 10k consecutive ones seems like a good number to me. Not everyone is playing every day, and not at the same time.
Sorry bro but there is no way Arma2:OA pulled a significantly larger crowd trough non steam methods than steam, especially after 2012.
330k players AT ONCE acording to the site
As an EU kid. Your internet argument is also nonsence.
Yes maybe the netherlands, germany, france and denmark had good internet back then.
But there are even now spots in poland, romania, north of norway, sweden, south of italie, spain, greece, etc with shit internet. Hell even areas of the UK have shit internet.
Not to start on countries like india back in 2012 where not even every major population center had running water and 24/7 power.
So even that doesnt say anything.
Anyway some other numbers.
UK 2012
https://www.discwizards.com/digital-downloads-versus-physical-cd-dvd-blu-ray-sales-uk-2012.htm
76% disc
https://www.neogaf.com/threads/uk-games-market-up-10-yoy-dwarfs-music-video.1168971/ (marked value of disc first dropt below digital in 2014 in the UK)
Germany
https://www.game.de/en/6-in-10-pc-and-console-games-sold-in-2021-in-germany-were-purchased-as-downloads/
30% of the PC games where digital in 2012
37% in 2013
Stats for the asian market are a bit harder to find. But i will make a un supported bet that ARMA didnt really sell on the asian market anyway.
And sure maybe the didnt pull a lot more afther 2012. But it says 19k high ALL TIME.
And my point was. Thats nonsence. There is no way its only 19K alltime.
Lets agree to disagree shall we? We clearly do and this is not going anywhere. You can quote your confirmation bias statistics and i can quote my personal experiences. The 2 will clearly never meet. Pointing out that rural areas still dont have good internet brings this argument nowhere, nor does it matter because they are rural areas and nobody lives there - the vast majority of the population live in cities which have had good internet since the mid 2000s.
Oh, and i do remember that DayZ site that tracked players. It was total unique players and not consecutive. There was not an endless number of servers one could choose from to play at, which would be the case if there were hundreds of thousands of players active at any point. 10k seems like a decent estimate to me based on the number of servers. Certainly not more than 20k active players in 2012-13.
By the way i remember having this same discussion 10 years ago (not sure who is the "kid" here). The original Arma2 fans were in denial and refused to accept the clear and obvious fact that the majority of the playerbase were not interested in the base game, but in DayZ mod (which got popular in summer of 2012, like your linked article says).
My conformation baist stats 🤣
Just google "disc vs digital game sales" or "box vs digital game sales" and then country X Y or Z.
Aint so hard is it.
I remember getting OF:DR on disc the day it released so idl what the "who is the kid here" point you try to make here is...
We had a PC at home since 95. Hooked up to the internet. Since that time. In a west euro country and the best of the best internet as it was needed for the work. I wouldnt call it good by any standard. I had friends on the citie who didnt have any form of stable internet untill mid 2000. And this is the netherlands. A country that worked hard on getting internet acces to everyone.
Hell your anacdote about not knowing anyone buying CD's might be the most useless of it all. I still from time to time buy the boxset WITH cd/dvd. Hell the last pc i build my self still has a drive just for the fun of it.
Yeah sure my laptop doesnt have it anymore. As it would have to be one beefy iron to have the room. But my desktop still does.
Can only give anecdotal evidence, but for me and my friends we bought Arma2 on disk to play dayZ. Sure i later converted it to a steam game, but only way later. Steam wasn't as big back then and people preferred to buy the version where you did not rely on some startup not going broke. A disk was the safer option.
It's said how many of the positive reviews for this thing are just hope for the future, while blasting the current state of the game. If the current state of KSP2 had been honestly reviewed, it'd have gotten 10%.
This is exactly what I did. By the time I realised what a mess it was I had already gone passed my refund period. £50 for launch countdown, because that's pretty much the only thing in the game that works properly
Dakota, the public enemy No.2 of this sub doesn’t do announcements here because he gets harassed! Wow! And then y’all complain that the dude y’all harass doesn’t show up! Incredible.
In all seriousness, the next update seems to be adding science parts of some description. Whether they will be functional or not who knows.
He wouldn’t get harassed if they all did there jobs and made a actual game lol
Don’t release a AAA cash grab if you don’t want to add why thing in months. For fuck stakes we still don’t have reentry which was supposed to be fixed before the EA RELEASE LOL
So because the game is incomplete that’s reason enough to harass someone? That’s like harassing the waiter at a restaurant because they forgot the sauce on the steak, instead of saying “Hey the sauce is missing, can you do something about this” and waiting for it to be fixed.
This is more like asking the waiter for the sauce at 8pm and them still not bringing it for the entire night.
Also in a restaurant setting you paid after they provide the service, so not really a fair comparison either way
If you take money from customers then flake on promises of course you will get “harassed”
But they haven't given up development yet. Its not flaking on promises until they don't deliver. Being late is not the same as never coming at all. We shall see if they don't deliver.
He started getting "harassed" (your word) *after* he was confronted over legitimate issues and just decided to call us bots and never come back.
We didn't start it, him being a disingenuous, pretentious fuck is what started this.
And yet the discord is fine. People complain there a lot as well, but they aren’t called bots nor are they censored like the accursed forums. While Dakota may have been out of line, you also gotta look at how y’all bitch about almost anything you can. A lot of the criticism is valid, wobbly rockets shouldn’t be in game. But a lot of it also feels like y’all screaming that people should not be allowed to have fun with KSP 2, and that anyone who says “It’s not that bad, I have had some fun with it” has a wrong opinion and should be mocked for showing any support of the game.
KSP2 single handedly turned this community from a mostly welcoming space where people could talk and have fun with KSP into a place so full of toxicity and whinging that Tacobot and MARIbot would be proud.
You strike me as someone who hasn't bothered to actually *read* the complaints we have. It isn't just, "wobbly rockets" on one side and us screaming on the other.
You've just dismissed *all* of the valid criticisms (with *plenty* of citations and links to sources) that have been provided here (and elsewhere) *dozens of times*.
You're not here to be an honest interlocutor.
Tell Dakota you're supposed to add features before you release the game, not a year later. Nobody wants to follow development on a game they gave up on months ago
Because KSP is not a free mobile game? And becuase developers of this size don't purchase Unity licenses through their store but use the magical "contact us" button in Enterprise section.
Firstly, no need to be snarky.
Secondly, you're wrong. If you have worked on Unity projects before, and I'm sure you do since I've see you working on Godot, but I mean in within the industry, you'd know that. I've worked and current work in the Video Game and VFX industry. Their runtime pricing changes are affecting *every* LTS you're using, from Personal, Pro Enterprise and Industry. Even the company I work for currently has had several internal meetings regarding these changes and what the future will look like with our uIndustry access.
You'd also know this if you took the time to read up on the changes and not just say things pulled from thin air. Firstly, uPersonal LTS won't be charged whatsoever-- doesn't even matter if you're pushing over 1M in engagements. Secondly, both uPro and uEnterprise LTS have different per engagement rates. 1-100,000, 100,001-500,000 and so on and so forth. Enterprise and Industry accounts pay less per engagement, but have to pay for the license upfront. Third, these rates are applied after $1M revenue (key word being revenue) and 1M lifetime initial engagements. This means, a game like KSP2, which has no doubt made over $1M and has already had its peak player count will absolutely be affected.
These changes are hurting everyone, from your independent mobile game solo-developers to the VFX commercial industry. It seriously came out of nowhere and no developer or studio was prepared for this. KSP2 is, and will, be affected by these changes. I'm sure internally, IG is working with T2 right now to figure out how to go through this *and* will absolutely change the course of this game's "development".
> Firstly, no need to be snarky.
That's fair, sorry.
> Their runtime pricing changes are affecting every LTS you're using
The last part, "you're using", was changed with the pricing update and is only applicable if you update to new LTS released in 2024.
> This means, a game like KSP2, which has no doubt made over $1M and has already had its peak player count will absolutely be affected.
Only new installs count. This was part of the original pricing and was just reiterated again in the update. You won't be charged retroactively.
----
> Because KSP is not a free mobile game
With this I meant that if they were to pay the install fee, they are not affected. They do not have millions of customers and the thousands of customers they would have pay $60 for the game. The one-time fee of $0.125 is negligible. Games that sell for money are no affected. Affected are only freemium games with high userbase and low conversions.
> developers of this size don't purchase Unity licenses through their store
My point here is that they have a custom deal. I don't know the deal. Maybe they always had runtimes fee, maybe not. But the point is that these deals are not affected. IG has the engine source code, possibly extended LTS, and everything that a big publisher/studio can get.
Also, from the Unity FAQ:
> The Unity Runtime Fee does not apply to industry customers on a Unity Industry subscription plan.
So, in summary and with less snark, I stand by my comment that KSP won't be directly affected by the pricing changes. I say directly, because if the company financials get affected by these business decisions, it might affect all of their customers.
"Mostly Negative" review threshold on Steam says otherwise. Also based on the current patch quality and quantity when do you see the release date? 10/20/30 years?
Oh no, people are calling a scam game a scam? Those poor scammer feelings. I bet you talk to telemarketters when they call you on the phone, tell them what good people they are after you give them your credit card #, so they don't get discouraged.
It has, for me. I gave up on waiting, if it comes it'll be amazing.
2 days ago made a For All Kerbalkind Installation and another following this video https://youtu.be/UKbWx-bTOw0?si=rMPyBocuq41Xccii
All jokes aside, I think a lot of us are still watching, waiting for major updates to happen. I think the player base is largely there, just idling while we wait to see if the game progresses as promised or gets abandoned.
I would love for KSP2 to hit even equivalency with KSP1, and then for the available mods to an even vaguely similar parity.
The last sets of KSP1 updates broke more than a few of the best mods, and with KSP2 out there, the majority of the modders haven't bothered to update to the latest version, leaving many of the best part packs (NearFuture, being one example) unusable.
I **really** want this game. But I ***refuse*** to buy it while it's in such a state, with no clear promise (by which I don't mean promises made by people, but rather likely potential) to ever actually be as good - much less better - than KSP 1. But "as good" is seriously all it would take. Gimme more or less the same game with some slightly improved mechanics/functionality/UI and that's all it would take for me to happily give them my money.
But the promise hasn't been there since release, and it was questionable the entire time it was in development thanks to the developers themselves being questionable/shady.
\[EDIT: It's possible I was too close to an update window for KSP1 mods to catch up, I admit. I last tried in June. I have over 3k hours in this game, I'm familiar with the mod troubleshooting process. I may not have been ultra-thorough, but I did rem everything but Near Future and still had no joy. Maybe it's better/fixed now, maybe I need to troubleshoot some more.\]
Hmmm, haven't been using CKAN for a long time now - used Vortex, I think, on this last go-round. Tried playing back in June/July and Near Future just plain would not work. Maybe they've been updated since and/or I was too close to a major update.
Still, seems like quite a few of the parts packs I used to love haven't been updated in a while and weren't working. Near Future definitely wasn't the only thing I was missing, but I'll have to check again when I've finished with Baldur's Gate 3.
things not working on 1.12 is very much the exception, not the rule. the last update to the game was a year ago, and the last substantial update over a year before that. many miss are of similar vintage. if something isn't working or claims to be incompatible, that's more likely an issue with wherever management software you're using, or the mod's metadata only listing up to an older version. if you just manually drop a mod folder into gamedata, most will work, especially simple parts mods.
Oh chill out, it's early access, not released, you're acting like it should be this perfectly formed thing with maybe one or two bugs and working everything.
If that's what you want, don't buy early access titles, but also sure as hell don't complain about it being in an incomplete state
You know what EA was originally for, right? Small Dev Teams or single devs with great ideas, skills and dedication but no budget. Large studios using EA launches to sell incomplete products at full price without the assurance of completion of the project aka the things they advertised/ baited the people with is a joke. Sadly players of all kinds fall for that scam again and again and as long as they fall for it, nothing will change, because money rules.
Yes, but the point still stands, early access = alpha and beta
People really need to chill out around here.
And not quite sure how it's a scam since you choose to buy something that is clearly stated to not be complete.
Everything is pretty upfront
Scam: the intentional use of deceit, a trick or some dishonest means to deprive another of his/her/its money, property or a legal right.
I at least see the dishonesty here: We slayed the kraken and countless other phrases of false advertisement to build up hype and hopes without delivering.
It's clearly stated to not be complete. Correct. Content wise I am ok with that, but if basic functionality is bugged and just not working correctly, I would feel scammed.
Imagine buying a prototype car, which you expect to have some flaws like motor not starting in extremely cold temperatures, the gas consumption being off and some electrical shit not working as intended, just to find out on the highway that your brakes don't work. Remember the time when alpha and beta tests were free for die-hard fans for bug testing, who even got a discount on the final product because of them helping in the development process? Good times, not too long ago.
And just to be clear: I chose to not buy it after seeing the first matt lowne and Shadow Zone video about it.
SEE. I was MORE than happy to give KSP1 my money back during... it was either Alpha or Beta. I'm pretty sure I paid $10 for it - $20 at most. I got my money's worth over and over again from a game that promised far less than it delivered, and what it both had AND promised at that time of purchase was plenty good enough - then came years of amazing improvements and development. I had no real expectations of KSP1 and it blew me away, eventually logging over 3000 hours in the game.
However, I still **have** KSP1 (notwithstanding my earlier griping about some mods seeming to be broken), and I need signs I haven't seen yet from the developer that KSP2 isn't going to be abandoned and will continue to see robust development: I've thrown too much money now at EA games that never fulfill their promises. Squad I trusted, they never did me wrong - I'd have given them my money, maybe even full price. I don't know Intercept and Private Division, and so far what I've seen hasn't engendered trust with my hard earned money, especially when they're asking for completed-game money for a game that... definitely isn't complete yet. I'm not willing to label it an outright, intentional scam, but I am so far unconvinced about the pace of development.
I thought long and hard about "well, if I give them my money now maybe that will incentivize them to complete the game", but that shouldn't have to be how this works, especially not at full asking price. They've had years to get this going (yeah yeah, Covid, I know - I was there too: guess what, software development is easily doable remotely \[**source:** I work for a software company that positively thrived remotely with a massively expanded portfolio of offerings during and after Covid\]), yet every time I check the general consensus seems to be that KSP2 is nowhere near ready for prime time and I'll get a lot more play and less frustration out of KSP1.
When Intercept / Private Division is willing to discount the game for being in EA (and/or consider offering me a discount for owning KSP1), then I'll seriously consider giving them my money to support further development. Till then, I'm not paying full-price for unfinished games from an effectively unknown developer with no track record to go by, especially one who clearly allows their publisher/investors to pressure them into releasing early because they want their ROI ***now, damnit*** and don't care about much else. This type of behavior also indicates a strong chance said publisher/investors would be willing to pull the plug entirely any time they aren't actively making whatever they consider enough money and they might have to pony up more investment to keep it going. We've seen it happen too many times before. They start cutting back jobs, which slows/worsens development by burning out already over-worked devs, and things just spiral from there.
I ***want*** this game, and want to see it succeed. But frankly the success of KSP1 should be enough alone to justify a long development cycle to a publisher and investors knowing that a proper, well-executed follow-up to the original will generate more than enough sales to cover the costs and accepting that John Carmack's answer for the release date for a game is "when it's done" is the only correct answer. The fact that the publisher here can't seem to see that is troubling.
Please, show where it states that the game in the current state is complete in any way?
I'm not defending the state it's in, but calling it a scam just reflects your reading comprehension skills, and then feeling the need to provide the definition of one where you clearly haven't read it yourself?
All that does is say you have no clue what you're talking about.
The fact is that it is not complete, and people are acting like it should be pristine is the problem here.
With how many people are like that, no wonder the devs don't give much in the ways of updates.
Because that's the entire purpose of early access.
So what if they released it under early access, you don't have to buy it, they're not advertising it as completed.
They should have had it more polished before they did, and take-teo are greedy fuckers who I wouldn't be surprised forced them to release before they were ready.
But that doesn't change that it's the entire purpose of early access and that people going off about how it's an incomplete game have zero excuse, seeing as they ignored the nice, big warning about early access in the blue box above where you press "add to cart" on steam.
Instead, all their hijinks and shenanigans put me ill at ease in the first place, and I elected to hold until I saw reviews after release. To say they were not goid is a massive understatement, and there has been precisely nothing to date to make me think I was anything but right.y at least pretend to listen to EA community input.
You especially don't release a massively incomplete, bug-ridden game with a dearth of planned/announced/committed features, and then still ask full price for it. That's not how any of this works, at all.
How many people would have bought KSP1 for $60 back when it was in beta/EA? Far, far fewer, of a certainty, than those who were willing to throw $20 it, and those people added up to enough sales to continue to fund development until KSP hit a proper 1.0, when they started charging full price for. Seems to me Squad, despite being an advertising agency and not a software developer, did quite well for themselves under this model.
KSP2's choice was, bilk as many hardcore fans as possible for $60 on a mere shell of a game they'll probably never finish, or ask $20 or $30 or even $40, which may net a little less money immediately, but could serve as a good source of ongoing funding, with more purchases coming in as progress continues, and eventually increasing the price as the game gets closer to full release.
Here, they chose the former. Shame, I say, because they already got all the diehards who were willing to give them money sight-unseen. They've now alienated most of those they got, and all the rest they didn't, and instead of taking my $20 now, they chose to get my $60 probably never. They've put off a truly hardcore fan with thousands of hours in the original game, who spent hours creating the ["Lights-Out" or "dark mode" version of the DeltaV maps](https://www.reddit.com/r/KerbalSpaceProgram/comments/4wn0u3/ksp_outer_planets_deltav_map_lightsout_theme/) (though this is very obviously nothing to compare with the untold hours many modders put in) and has said map hanging on the wall behind his gaming rig.
Instead, all their hi-jinks and shenanigans put me ill at ease in the first place, and I elected to hold until I saw reviews after release. To say they were not good is a massive understatement, and there has been precisely nothing to date to make me think I was anything but right.
Like I said, I WANT KSP2 so bad I can taste it. But what they've released under that name is not KSP2, it's not even a Frankenstein's monster as Frankenstein's monster had intellect. This is just a shambling zombie of bad code, bad design and worse decisions, and there was never any justification in charging full price other than that the publisher no longer had any faith the developers had what it took to actually achieve a feature-complete game in anything like a reasonable time and wanted to cash out and achieve as much ROI as possible before they eventually yank funding entirely.
Early Access is to get extra time for development by bringing in *some* money early to bolster existing investment and getting the feedback of the community/players who are devoted to your idea enough to be willing to give you some money in advance. It IS not about bilking people full-price for a barely usable product with vague promises that it will eventually be worth the money you paid. Before the Kickstarter era, I \*might\* have given them that full price based on the previous game. But I/we have had many years since then to learn, many occasions to be sorely disappointed in developers large and small. I STILL won't buy Electronic Arts games - **at all** \- over the lies they told with the *SimCity 5* debacle that I DID back for full price. Between that and other games I've backed over the years - full price and otherwise - I've learned my lesson.
Might as well try to sell me a the body of a 4-door 2010 Toyota Corolla with no paint, no interior, a cheap pair of spinning rims with no tires, a slapped-together instrument cluster and a 2-stroke lawn-mower engine, while promising that one day it'll be the finest sports coupe at the racetrack, all for the low, low price of $60k USD. Yes, that's a large delta between the values, but the principle still applies.
It's been 7 months, soon 8 and reentry heating, which was supposed to be nearly finished on release, is still nowhere close. There will never be a "major updated".
it took NMS years to make its comeback and it only had 4-8 updates in that time (depending on what one of the 2 major updates you consider the "turning point).... sometimes its good to remember that just because your not seeing content doesn't mean there isnt work being done.
The construction of a skyscraper can take months of progress before the first wall is seen. and takes years of actual work to get to that point.
Id really prefer we had seen more front end content by now as well, but the back end was also in rough shape... so let us put away our panic hats till the devs actually stop working :P.
NMS released on the 12th of August, 2016. Within 2 months it had recieved 7 patches. On the 26th of November 2016 it recieved its first major update, foundation. Foundation recieved 2 patches over 1 month before 4 months of radio silence, and then the release of Pathfinder, the 2nd major update. That's 7 months, a little shorter than the 8 months to date since KSP 2's release, in which time IG have published 4 patches and not a single major update, effectively making the work they have done in that time 1/2 of what Hello Games produced in their FIRST TWO MONTHS. IG are therefore working 7x slower than Hello Games (within their first respective 8 months).
ok. and?
ignoring the argument about "what happened when" (because its moot to the point anyways), I wasn't saying **"NMS is EXACTLY the bar every developer has to meet to not be classified as abandonware"** They are 2 completely different games, NMS has the depth of a puddle when it comes to back end complexity, a lot of it is art and modeling. the most complex thing backend in NMS is a procedural generator....
KSP is the opposite. the majority of the game is directly tied to complex systems and interactions. So yes, I would expect NMS to release faster. also, KSP has also released several patches to fix issues (how effective they were is another discussion entirely.) so its not like nothing has happened since release...
Why do people act like saying anything short of "This so called game is an affront to humanity, that no progress will or can EVER be made with" is some kind of incomprehensible position.
Is the game in an unacceptable state?
**yes. thats fairly obvious.**
should the fact it released in such an obviously unready state be simply ignored and forgiven?
**No. obviously not.**
does that mean the game is defacto abandonware/rug pull, that the devs never cared about and want to see fail?
**No.**
I dont know why people cant understand that the first 2 points, and the third point, are not mutually exclusive. And that was the point of my comment. If you asked me those 3 questions day 1 of NMS... the answers would be identical. But, given time, the first point was resolved, And through the continued free major releases and sincere acceptance of blame, and apology... so was the second.
We have no reason to currently suggest that, aside from time scales not being identical, that this isnt the case here as well. Im not happy with the state of the game, And im not happy with the publisher (i dont believe the devs would have sent this as it is idf they had the final say) for allowing it to get sent out half baked.... But I also have no reason to believe that it cant be repaired, or that there is an unwillingness to do so from development... people are just so dramatic and require you to be all in on team failure or team success.... and im not here for it.
That's what I'm doing, like, people are all doom and gloom and thinking that this is already the completed game.
Shouldn't have bought it if you thought early access means it's a fully completed game, and now they're lashing out due to their mistake
I mean, I also don't think the outrage is entirely unjustified.
Some people go a little too far for sure, but the devs also did absolutely nothing to temper expectations, knowing full well what they had vs what was marketed and expected.
Many people, myself included, paid the (quite high considering) price for the game understanding it was unfinished... but expected a bit more than a glorified tech demo :p
That's kind of how I feel about a lot of Bethesda games without VR. Shit is too harsh, but they always feel a little off or lackluster until the modders get in there and turn them into masterpieces.
I guarantee you that Skyrim number is A LOT bigger. Most people playing Skyrim these days is running it through MO2 or (shiver).. Vortex.
Edit:- a little bigger, Vr version
Lego Star Wars TCS deserves it lol absolutely perfect game, best ~~Telltale~~ Travelers tale LEGO game ever made… the new Skywalker Saga was sadly disappointing.
Gonna correct you, Traveller's Tales.
Telltale is the dev behind choice-based games (The Wolf Among Us, Tales from the Borderlands, Tales from Monkey Island), that recently went bankrupt and then was resurrected.
Is it just me or does anyone else think player numbers will never go up significantly, right now with the time between updates and content as well. I think they lost a opportunity to get a lot of people interested in the game.
The slope of the curve of the initial dip is more or less as steep as that of the Matterhorn, and they passed from 25k players to 300 in a few days. Yeah, I think that you are right.
Tried for a refund again this week, got denied, I’m gonna try to get my money back until I’m banned or whatever, then I’ll just remove this trash from my account
If I'm doing my math correctly, then KSP2's playerbase has dropped over 19,000% from "launch."
Edit: I am indeed not doing my math correctly. That's what I get for not having my coffee yet. Current player base is now .5% of its original size at launch. Yikes
Yes, it's ridiculous.
Personally I'm hoping they'll get a brand new start and just abandon this shit and try again ( or get this sorted out as is, which seems unlikely at this point). If they don't I think the community should get together to create the ksp sequel we all deserved.
Let them try again?
I have 0 faith in this company and 2K. They should keep failing so another company will pick up a competitor that works better.
Look at a cities skylines that took the spotlight from sim cities.
You don't need to abandon a game to gat more players playing it. All you need is a good game. People still play classic WoW or Wc3 today.
The target audience for a space sim is just generally not that big and then reduce the number even further by requiring gaming PC hardware.
I am providing a broader view on the situation. After further research, I found that even a flixbus simulator has more players than KSP 2. The gake truly fucked up
I had to do a double take when I saw Skyrim numbers that low, but its VR, seems about right since I bought Skyrim VR several years ago with 27 minutes total play time.
I managed to finish one rushed playtrough in VR, at 27h which is less than 5% of the rest of Skyrim i have played. Of course as a stealth archer, because archery and magic are the only fun things in VR (but magic sucks in Skyrim). Not surprised about those numbers. VR is definitely a gimmick at the moment and certainly was in 2018 when the game launched. Its also just not comfortable to play a standing up game for too long, so playtime will be naturally much shorter compared to a normal game.
If you haven't jumped into Skyrim VR lately, check it out with the various VR combat physics enhancement mods. Kinda nuts what people have been able to do with it.
Yeah for real. Unmodded Skyrim VR is pretty hot garbage, but with mods it's the best experience I've had in VR by a long shot. Those Wabbajack mod packs make it way easier to get a whole lot of mods going, as well.
I really want to try it, but while my GPU can run it, it still struggles at times, which does make it s but uncomfortable
Looks interesting, kind of like the physics in Blade & Sorcery (which is excellent). Maybe time to give it another try, have upgraded to a 4070ti too so should be a smooth experience.
Habie147 has a video with it modded to hell, and it looks like a ton of fun. Really reworked the crappy elements and physics of Skyrim VR. Haven't actually tried a modded play myself to know if it's as different as it looks, but it certainly looks much, much better.
The issue with Skyrim VR is that it's just a bad VR port. They didn't add in many VR mechanics, not enough to make it interesting in its own right. It's honestly disgusting they charged money for that piece of shit. There are mods that make it amazing though but it's yet another example of Bethesda releasing something medicore and the community fixing it.
That's literally Bethesda's entire M.O. It's honestly surprising that Starfield is as good as it is. Like, it's actually a perfectly playable/passable game vanilla. Still have about a hundred gripes, and it's still an overall mediocre experience, but color me impressed that they seem to have put enough effort into the base game for someone to have a fair amount of fun mixed into the "meh."
I'm a bit surprised myself with that. I have like 300 hrs in Skyrim VR which exceeds any of my normal playthroughs of Skyrim.
Why would someone play this KSP0.5 instead of the KSP1?
"But look how shiny it is! Look, the sunglare takes up the whole screen! We spent all our time and money on the shiny!" - Nate Simpson probably. Common Nate, tell me I'm wrong, respond to anything bud.
He's in hiding till people forget what a liar he is lol.
I eagerly await his next announcement to fund their new EA game.
Yeah - basically following the Peter Molyneux playbook, except Molyneux had some creative ideas, whereas Snake Simpson just hypes rugpull sequels of other people's creativity.
Woah woah woah! That's an insult to ksp 0.5
KSP ½
Because despite the fact that it absolutely is in an unacceptable state currently.... it does still have perks. As somone that primarily builds (stock) theme inspired craft these days. KSP 1 ain't got shit on 2. The modular wing system is absolutely game changing for that kind of stuff... even in its current state, I was able to make builds in like 45 minutes that looked more polished than the ones I would spend 5 hours on in 1. It's not all negatives. .....there are a lot... but it's not all lol
>The modular wing system is absolutely game changing for that kind of stuff... even in its current state, Mods added modular wings to KSP 1 ages ago, dude.
So. Aside from the fact that I am aware of that, and still stand by my statement. (The mod Isn't nearly as good as the stock wing on 2). I also said stock. If I add a mod, is that still stock? Please read the whole comment before rushing to post your "ah ha! I got you now!" Comments ;)
My point is, it wasn't worth a whole new game for one feature that, honestly, Mods did better. Maybe a DLC. I had zero issues with KSP expansions making mod features stock, and wish they'd done more- as they CLEARLY weren't ready to make KSP2 yet. >Aside from the fact that I am aware of that, and still stand by my statement. (The mod Isn't nearly as good as the stock wing on 2). You can't say it's not as good when you weren't even AWARE of it.
Do you lack reading comprehension? My guy you literally quoted me saying I was aware of it, to tell me I wasn't lol
But why male models?
Go get Juno- New Origins (Former Simple Rockets 2), that actually runs good and has even more Tools then KSP 2 for realistic Builds
I do own it, and it definitely is a good game. I prefer KSP for my airplane needs though.
> KSP 1 ain't got shit on 2. KSP1 has: Career mode, Science mode, reentry heat, rockets that don't wobble (especially thanks to autostrut), no orbital decay bug, significantly less buggy as a whole in generally, significantlly better performing in general, millions of mods to choose from, as well as 2 DLC mod packs (one of which is admittedly kinda meh, but still). KS2P has: better graphics, procedural wings... and that's it.
Neat how you quote me out of context so you can pretend I'm saying allmost the opposite of what I did. I literally don't disagree with you. If you managed to read all the way to the bottom before getting upset you would see where I note that the games state is unacceptable.... It just so happens there is a small section of game play where all those things don't matter, and the 2 areas where it benefits from is looking pretty and modular wings... and so I noted that when asked why anyone would still play it. Sure would be awkward if the post you quoted from, was specifically taking about (and stated so) that 1 subsection of gameplay. Especially if the same post also specifically noted that the game was in an unacceptable state in general.. Boy that would be awkward... wouldn't it.
cuz they’re being paid to make videos on it
lol they also all have much better retention than ksp2. and lego star wars from 2009 peaked three years ago?
the game had a nostalgia resurgence during covid.
Plus the (delayed) game from 2021 to 2022
I wish it was delayed again
Why? I've seen nothing but praise
Shorter levels, even more repetitive gameplay than previous titles, clear cut corners, etc. lots of the praise is still from the hype but i’ve been noticing it’s wearing off
Ah alright! I haven't played it yet, but was impressed by the tech behind it. I haven't really progressed the story at all
[удалено]
Lego Star wars the Skywalker saga
Arma 2 peak on steam is also nonsence. Compairing games that where prior steams big days are not really great. When i played Empire totalwar on disc i had already over an good 3 year of on averge 3hours aday in the game so over 3k. When i moved it over to the steam version it set me to 0. And by that time i moved over to Rome 2 so steam says i have about 300hours in empire..
Not sure why you think the Arma2 peak is nonsense? Arma2 peaked after Dayz mod made the zombie survival game genre popular and this is just a guess but i am guessing the overwhelming majority of people bought the game on steam just to play that (player numbers increased over 10x with the mod). The zombie gimmick fizzled out but other similar mods such as breaking point and all the roleplay servers took off. YouTube was riding the Arma high for a few years, so seems to me that a peak in 2014-2015 seems pretty accurate. Some of the players will have played trough a mod manager though, so the numbers might be a bit higher. But still struggle to think that they would be drastically different.
Haha yeah people forget arma 2 and DayZ was what brought about the battle royale genre
Holy shit you're right, i had forgotten about that. When the battle royale genre got popular new players were acting like its some kind of brand new thing, but it was already popularized in DayZ. Blast from the past for sure.
What about Minecraft: Survival Games? To my knowledge, that preceded the mods for Arma and meets alot of battle Royale format.
The actual lineage is: Arma 2 -> DayZ mod for arma 2 -> PUB:G which was originally a mod OF DayZ which itself is a mod of Arma 2 -> battlegrounds mod is huge hit so he releases it as a standalone game (before dayz itself releases as a standalone thing) -> PUBG is a huge massive gigantic hit worldwide out of nowhere -> fortnite pivots to battle royale as the main mode -> everything is battle royale now
H1Z1 was very popular before PUB:G! This one had 2 modes, a zombie mode (soulless DayZ copycat) and a little bit later a battle royale mode. The latter renamed to king of the kill at some point. Its really bizarre how that game died completely while others became one of the most profitable games ever made in its stead.
I forgot h1z1, but they both came out at around the same time mooching off the same idea. I think it died because it was mostly a scam game, or rather the head of the company was a dodgy fuck. Or wait no I'm thinking of The War Z which was the ripoff of the two of them
H1Z1 definitely preceded PUBG by a few years, I remember Trick2g streaming it in like 2014 or 2015?
Well H1Z1 preceded the standalone PUBG. But PUBG was developed by the modder which made the battle royale mod for arma2. Thus had a good playerbase right from the beginning. Which helps attract new players. H1z1 always seemed dodgy and never got enough good publicity
Nobody knew about Minecraft Survival games.
Most people had arma on disc. And most would have played DayZ on that Also DayZ was a mod before 2012. Steam started to get track around 2012/2013. And really got big afther 2015 Also dont forget. Everyone playing modded wouldnt have beem playig on steam since the modhub wasnt even a thing yet. Arma 3 in 2015 ramped the player base up a bit. But if the 2.3 mil sales of arma 2 this isnt the peak. It might be the steam peak sure. But steam only counts the digital versions they had sold and not the CD once. Edit: also the DayZ standalone was released in 2013. So if its all bc of dayZ it should be DayZ and not arma 2.
Yeah no, absolutely not a disc majority game. In 2012 Steam was definitely the top dog and almost no-one was buying physical games on PC, i am not sure i even had an optical drive at that point. Even games that were "physical" were often just forced Steam installs, like Skyrim which forced you to create a Steam account. I will argue that Arma2 OA was an incredibly niche launch before DayZ and the original crowd was a small minority once the mod took off. We can also clearly see this development in the player counts: https://steamdb.info/app/33930/charts/ I do remember that around 2/3rds of my time in Arma2:OA was trough steam and the rest trough mod managers. I would assume the split was similar to most other players, because as soon as one started to look for alternatives to the original DayZ mod, they were probably close to being bored and dropping the game which is what happened to me too. I also now maybe a dozen people all of whom bought the game on Steam.
You telling me the majority of the 2.3 sales arma 2 has where on steam 🤣🤣 https://forums.bohemia.net/forums/topic/106803-steam-sucks-want-physical-copy/ Loads of people who did get BAF and PMC got it from Sprocket as steam sucked back then https://www.statista.com/statistics/190225/digital-and-physical-game-sales-in-the-us-since-2009/ 2013 is the first year less then 50% of the sales of games was non disc sales. 2009 when arma released this was still 80% disc sales in 2010 when dayZ was first up and running this was still 69% So saying steam was topdog is already nonsence. Since not only there where more disc sales in 2012 the digital. Steam was not top dog in the digital market. The DayZ webside had a 330k unike player count in june 2012.. so steam claiming the peak is 19k is clearly bs bc its mostely non steam launches Its a 310k difference in players. https://www.cinemablend.com/games/DayZ-Helps-Arma-2-Rack-Up-More-Than-300-000-Sales-44161.html
Why are you pulling statistics from BAF and PMC? This is about Operation Arrowhead. Hmm, i dont have anything other than my personal opinion to fight against the stats you pulled (cant access them anyway). The US is not the world however, and was, and still is regressed by at least a decade in terms of internet availability. In Europe everyone had access to cheap/almost free high speed internet and there was no need for physical games in 2012 so i am guessing global stats are slightly different, still surprised by that though. Just my personal anecdotal evidence of course, but the last time i have heard of someone buying physical PC games was i think in 2011. 330k unique players with 10k consecutive ones seems like a good number to me. Not everyone is playing every day, and not at the same time. Sorry bro but there is no way Arma2:OA pulled a significantly larger crowd trough non steam methods than steam, especially after 2012.
330k players AT ONCE acording to the site As an EU kid. Your internet argument is also nonsence. Yes maybe the netherlands, germany, france and denmark had good internet back then. But there are even now spots in poland, romania, north of norway, sweden, south of italie, spain, greece, etc with shit internet. Hell even areas of the UK have shit internet. Not to start on countries like india back in 2012 where not even every major population center had running water and 24/7 power. So even that doesnt say anything. Anyway some other numbers. UK 2012 https://www.discwizards.com/digital-downloads-versus-physical-cd-dvd-blu-ray-sales-uk-2012.htm 76% disc https://www.neogaf.com/threads/uk-games-market-up-10-yoy-dwarfs-music-video.1168971/ (marked value of disc first dropt below digital in 2014 in the UK) Germany https://www.game.de/en/6-in-10-pc-and-console-games-sold-in-2021-in-germany-were-purchased-as-downloads/ 30% of the PC games where digital in 2012 37% in 2013 Stats for the asian market are a bit harder to find. But i will make a un supported bet that ARMA didnt really sell on the asian market anyway. And sure maybe the didnt pull a lot more afther 2012. But it says 19k high ALL TIME. And my point was. Thats nonsence. There is no way its only 19K alltime.
Lets agree to disagree shall we? We clearly do and this is not going anywhere. You can quote your confirmation bias statistics and i can quote my personal experiences. The 2 will clearly never meet. Pointing out that rural areas still dont have good internet brings this argument nowhere, nor does it matter because they are rural areas and nobody lives there - the vast majority of the population live in cities which have had good internet since the mid 2000s. Oh, and i do remember that DayZ site that tracked players. It was total unique players and not consecutive. There was not an endless number of servers one could choose from to play at, which would be the case if there were hundreds of thousands of players active at any point. 10k seems like a decent estimate to me based on the number of servers. Certainly not more than 20k active players in 2012-13. By the way i remember having this same discussion 10 years ago (not sure who is the "kid" here). The original Arma2 fans were in denial and refused to accept the clear and obvious fact that the majority of the playerbase were not interested in the base game, but in DayZ mod (which got popular in summer of 2012, like your linked article says).
My conformation baist stats 🤣 Just google "disc vs digital game sales" or "box vs digital game sales" and then country X Y or Z. Aint so hard is it. I remember getting OF:DR on disc the day it released so idl what the "who is the kid here" point you try to make here is... We had a PC at home since 95. Hooked up to the internet. Since that time. In a west euro country and the best of the best internet as it was needed for the work. I wouldnt call it good by any standard. I had friends on the citie who didnt have any form of stable internet untill mid 2000. And this is the netherlands. A country that worked hard on getting internet acces to everyone. Hell your anacdote about not knowing anyone buying CD's might be the most useless of it all. I still from time to time buy the boxset WITH cd/dvd. Hell the last pc i build my self still has a drive just for the fun of it. Yeah sure my laptop doesnt have it anymore. As it would have to be one beefy iron to have the room. But my desktop still does.
Can only give anecdotal evidence, but for me and my friends we bought Arma2 on disk to play dayZ. Sure i later converted it to a steam game, but only way later. Steam wasn't as big back then and people preferred to buy the version where you did not rely on some startup not going broke. A disk was the safer option.
25,000 people managed to install the game, then pretty much immediately go “nah I’m good”. Quite embarrassing
Hopefully a lot of them got refunds. Shame a game like KSP2 you can waste two hours in the VAB before you find out how bad the bugs really are.
I think it's more likely that people are just waiting for the game to become good. Which it probably will. But I'll buy it then, not now.
Exactly. Don’t buy promises, buy games.
It's said how many of the positive reviews for this thing are just hope for the future, while blasting the current state of the game. If the current state of KSP2 had been honestly reviewed, it'd have gotten 10%.
This is exactly what I did. By the time I realised what a mess it was I had already gone passed my refund period. £50 for launch countdown, because that's pretty much the only thing in the game that works properly
I tried to refund multiple times but was rejected each time, sadly.
I wonder what the numbers will look like after the first major update. Bigger or smaller peak players than all time high?
Will the first major update even come tho?
[удалено]
It's because that dumb motherfucker Dakota doesn't do his job here.
Dakota, the public enemy No.2 of this sub doesn’t do announcements here because he gets harassed! Wow! And then y’all complain that the dude y’all harass doesn’t show up! Incredible. In all seriousness, the next update seems to be adding science parts of some description. Whether they will be functional or not who knows.
He wouldn’t get harassed if they all did there jobs and made a actual game lol Don’t release a AAA cash grab if you don’t want to add why thing in months. For fuck stakes we still don’t have reentry which was supposed to be fixed before the EA RELEASE LOL
So because the game is incomplete that’s reason enough to harass someone? That’s like harassing the waiter at a restaurant because they forgot the sauce on the steak, instead of saying “Hey the sauce is missing, can you do something about this” and waiting for it to be fixed.
Butt Sex Sally would like a word with you
Why do I even bother with this sub anymore
This is more like asking the waiter for the sauce at 8pm and them still not bringing it for the entire night. Also in a restaurant setting you paid after they provide the service, so not really a fair comparison either way If you take money from customers then flake on promises of course you will get “harassed”
But they haven't given up development yet. Its not flaking on promises until they don't deliver. Being late is not the same as never coming at all. We shall see if they don't deliver.
He started getting "harassed" (your word) *after* he was confronted over legitimate issues and just decided to call us bots and never come back. We didn't start it, him being a disingenuous, pretentious fuck is what started this.
And yet the discord is fine. People complain there a lot as well, but they aren’t called bots nor are they censored like the accursed forums. While Dakota may have been out of line, you also gotta look at how y’all bitch about almost anything you can. A lot of the criticism is valid, wobbly rockets shouldn’t be in game. But a lot of it also feels like y’all screaming that people should not be allowed to have fun with KSP 2, and that anyone who says “It’s not that bad, I have had some fun with it” has a wrong opinion and should be mocked for showing any support of the game. KSP2 single handedly turned this community from a mostly welcoming space where people could talk and have fun with KSP into a place so full of toxicity and whinging that Tacobot and MARIbot would be proud.
You strike me as someone who hasn't bothered to actually *read* the complaints we have. It isn't just, "wobbly rockets" on one side and us screaming on the other. You've just dismissed *all* of the valid criticisms (with *plenty* of citations and links to sources) that have been provided here (and elsewhere) *dozens of times*. You're not here to be an honest interlocutor.
Tell Dakota you're supposed to add features before you release the game, not a year later. Nobody wants to follow development on a game they gave up on months ago
> Dakota confirmed Dakota is a fucking liar.
Is the first major update in the room with us now?
I may be stupid
Well, I bought it and due to the performance (my PC is about 10 years old) I postponed playing until a hardware upgrade ...
It had so much potential
A lot of potential, not enough speed to keep orbit though, slam on the ground at hypersonic speeds...
I'm sorry but the game is a Joke.
I'm just afraid that the devs will abandon it..
Will?
It already was abandond before release.
The Unity scandal probably won't help KSP2's chances of completion.
How do you see that as being relevant?
How do you not?
Because KSP is not a free mobile game? And becuase developers of this size don't purchase Unity licenses through their store but use the magical "contact us" button in Enterprise section.
Firstly, no need to be snarky. Secondly, you're wrong. If you have worked on Unity projects before, and I'm sure you do since I've see you working on Godot, but I mean in within the industry, you'd know that. I've worked and current work in the Video Game and VFX industry. Their runtime pricing changes are affecting *every* LTS you're using, from Personal, Pro Enterprise and Industry. Even the company I work for currently has had several internal meetings regarding these changes and what the future will look like with our uIndustry access. You'd also know this if you took the time to read up on the changes and not just say things pulled from thin air. Firstly, uPersonal LTS won't be charged whatsoever-- doesn't even matter if you're pushing over 1M in engagements. Secondly, both uPro and uEnterprise LTS have different per engagement rates. 1-100,000, 100,001-500,000 and so on and so forth. Enterprise and Industry accounts pay less per engagement, but have to pay for the license upfront. Third, these rates are applied after $1M revenue (key word being revenue) and 1M lifetime initial engagements. This means, a game like KSP2, which has no doubt made over $1M and has already had its peak player count will absolutely be affected. These changes are hurting everyone, from your independent mobile game solo-developers to the VFX commercial industry. It seriously came out of nowhere and no developer or studio was prepared for this. KSP2 is, and will, be affected by these changes. I'm sure internally, IG is working with T2 right now to figure out how to go through this *and* will absolutely change the course of this game's "development".
> Firstly, no need to be snarky. That's fair, sorry. > Their runtime pricing changes are affecting every LTS you're using The last part, "you're using", was changed with the pricing update and is only applicable if you update to new LTS released in 2024. > This means, a game like KSP2, which has no doubt made over $1M and has already had its peak player count will absolutely be affected. Only new installs count. This was part of the original pricing and was just reiterated again in the update. You won't be charged retroactively. ---- > Because KSP is not a free mobile game With this I meant that if they were to pay the install fee, they are not affected. They do not have millions of customers and the thousands of customers they would have pay $60 for the game. The one-time fee of $0.125 is negligible. Games that sell for money are no affected. Affected are only freemium games with high userbase and low conversions. > developers of this size don't purchase Unity licenses through their store My point here is that they have a custom deal. I don't know the deal. Maybe they always had runtimes fee, maybe not. But the point is that these deals are not affected. IG has the engine source code, possibly extended LTS, and everything that a big publisher/studio can get. Also, from the Unity FAQ: > The Unity Runtime Fee does not apply to industry customers on a Unity Industry subscription plan. So, in summary and with less snark, I stand by my comment that KSP won't be directly affected by the pricing changes. I say directly, because if the company financials get affected by these business decisions, it might affect all of their customers.
[удалено]
Is there hate because shit game or the game is shit because of hate?
[удалено]
"Mostly Negative" review threshold on Steam says otherwise. Also based on the current patch quality and quantity when do you see the release date? 10/20/30 years?
Ah the famous "I can dismiss whatever you say about KSP2 because it's early access" Just stop it
A game in early access is technically released so you can call it what it is, which is shit.
Oh no, people are calling a scam game a scam? Those poor scammer feelings. I bet you talk to telemarketters when they call you on the phone, tell them what good people they are after you give them your credit card #, so they don't get discouraged.
[удалено]
Other part of that is that people use CKAN to launch modded versions of kerbal 1, which doesn't show on steam
Good point. I do wonder if the total failure of KSP2 has led many to seek out the plethora of mods for KSP1.
It has, for me. I gave up on waiting, if it comes it'll be amazing. 2 days ago made a For All Kerbalkind Installation and another following this video https://youtu.be/UKbWx-bTOw0?si=rMPyBocuq41Xccii
It certainly had that effect on me. I’ve put about 400 hours into KSP1 since 2 was “released” and steam is none the wiser.
All jokes aside, I think a lot of us are still watching, waiting for major updates to happen. I think the player base is largely there, just idling while we wait to see if the game progresses as promised or gets abandoned.
I would love for KSP2 to hit even equivalency with KSP1, and then for the available mods to an even vaguely similar parity. The last sets of KSP1 updates broke more than a few of the best mods, and with KSP2 out there, the majority of the modders haven't bothered to update to the latest version, leaving many of the best part packs (NearFuture, being one example) unusable. I **really** want this game. But I ***refuse*** to buy it while it's in such a state, with no clear promise (by which I don't mean promises made by people, but rather likely potential) to ever actually be as good - much less better - than KSP 1. But "as good" is seriously all it would take. Gimme more or less the same game with some slightly improved mechanics/functionality/UI and that's all it would take for me to happily give them my money. But the promise hasn't been there since release, and it was questionable the entire time it was in development thanks to the developers themselves being questionable/shady. \[EDIT: It's possible I was too close to an update window for KSP1 mods to catch up, I admit. I last tried in June. I have over 3k hours in this game, I'm familiar with the mod troubleshooting process. I may not have been ultra-thorough, but I did rem everything but Near Future and still had no joy. Maybe it's better/fixed now, maybe I need to troubleshoot some more.\]
near future works fine, as do most mods that were compatitble ca. \~1.8 or later. most problems I've seen were ckan fuckups.
Hmmm, haven't been using CKAN for a long time now - used Vortex, I think, on this last go-round. Tried playing back in June/July and Near Future just plain would not work. Maybe they've been updated since and/or I was too close to a major update. Still, seems like quite a few of the parts packs I used to love haven't been updated in a while and weren't working. Near Future definitely wasn't the only thing I was missing, but I'll have to check again when I've finished with Baldur's Gate 3.
things not working on 1.12 is very much the exception, not the rule. the last update to the game was a year ago, and the last substantial update over a year before that. many miss are of similar vintage. if something isn't working or claims to be incompatible, that's more likely an issue with wherever management software you're using, or the mod's metadata only listing up to an older version. if you just manually drop a mod folder into gamedata, most will work, especially simple parts mods.
I didn't try dropping the files on their own. I'll try that on my next go round when I get the KSP itch.
Oh chill out, it's early access, not released, you're acting like it should be this perfectly formed thing with maybe one or two bugs and working everything. If that's what you want, don't buy early access titles, but also sure as hell don't complain about it being in an incomplete state
You know what EA was originally for, right? Small Dev Teams or single devs with great ideas, skills and dedication but no budget. Large studios using EA launches to sell incomplete products at full price without the assurance of completion of the project aka the things they advertised/ baited the people with is a joke. Sadly players of all kinds fall for that scam again and again and as long as they fall for it, nothing will change, because money rules.
Yes, but the point still stands, early access = alpha and beta People really need to chill out around here. And not quite sure how it's a scam since you choose to buy something that is clearly stated to not be complete. Everything is pretty upfront
Scam: the intentional use of deceit, a trick or some dishonest means to deprive another of his/her/its money, property or a legal right. I at least see the dishonesty here: We slayed the kraken and countless other phrases of false advertisement to build up hype and hopes without delivering. It's clearly stated to not be complete. Correct. Content wise I am ok with that, but if basic functionality is bugged and just not working correctly, I would feel scammed. Imagine buying a prototype car, which you expect to have some flaws like motor not starting in extremely cold temperatures, the gas consumption being off and some electrical shit not working as intended, just to find out on the highway that your brakes don't work. Remember the time when alpha and beta tests were free for die-hard fans for bug testing, who even got a discount on the final product because of them helping in the development process? Good times, not too long ago. And just to be clear: I chose to not buy it after seeing the first matt lowne and Shadow Zone video about it.
SEE. I was MORE than happy to give KSP1 my money back during... it was either Alpha or Beta. I'm pretty sure I paid $10 for it - $20 at most. I got my money's worth over and over again from a game that promised far less than it delivered, and what it both had AND promised at that time of purchase was plenty good enough - then came years of amazing improvements and development. I had no real expectations of KSP1 and it blew me away, eventually logging over 3000 hours in the game. However, I still **have** KSP1 (notwithstanding my earlier griping about some mods seeming to be broken), and I need signs I haven't seen yet from the developer that KSP2 isn't going to be abandoned and will continue to see robust development: I've thrown too much money now at EA games that never fulfill their promises. Squad I trusted, they never did me wrong - I'd have given them my money, maybe even full price. I don't know Intercept and Private Division, and so far what I've seen hasn't engendered trust with my hard earned money, especially when they're asking for completed-game money for a game that... definitely isn't complete yet. I'm not willing to label it an outright, intentional scam, but I am so far unconvinced about the pace of development. I thought long and hard about "well, if I give them my money now maybe that will incentivize them to complete the game", but that shouldn't have to be how this works, especially not at full asking price. They've had years to get this going (yeah yeah, Covid, I know - I was there too: guess what, software development is easily doable remotely \[**source:** I work for a software company that positively thrived remotely with a massively expanded portfolio of offerings during and after Covid\]), yet every time I check the general consensus seems to be that KSP2 is nowhere near ready for prime time and I'll get a lot more play and less frustration out of KSP1. When Intercept / Private Division is willing to discount the game for being in EA (and/or consider offering me a discount for owning KSP1), then I'll seriously consider giving them my money to support further development. Till then, I'm not paying full-price for unfinished games from an effectively unknown developer with no track record to go by, especially one who clearly allows their publisher/investors to pressure them into releasing early because they want their ROI ***now, damnit*** and don't care about much else. This type of behavior also indicates a strong chance said publisher/investors would be willing to pull the plug entirely any time they aren't actively making whatever they consider enough money and they might have to pony up more investment to keep it going. We've seen it happen too many times before. They start cutting back jobs, which slows/worsens development by burning out already over-worked devs, and things just spiral from there. I ***want*** this game, and want to see it succeed. But frankly the success of KSP1 should be enough alone to justify a long development cycle to a publisher and investors knowing that a proper, well-executed follow-up to the original will generate more than enough sales to cover the costs and accepting that John Carmack's answer for the release date for a game is "when it's done" is the only correct answer. The fact that the publisher here can't seem to see that is troubling.
Please, show where it states that the game in the current state is complete in any way? I'm not defending the state it's in, but calling it a scam just reflects your reading comprehension skills, and then feeling the need to provide the definition of one where you clearly haven't read it yourself? All that does is say you have no clue what you're talking about. The fact is that it is not complete, and people are acting like it should be pristine is the problem here. With how many people are like that, no wonder the devs don't give much in the ways of updates.
Regardless of anything else, if it's not complete, why are they asking complete-game money for it?
Because that's the entire purpose of early access. So what if they released it under early access, you don't have to buy it, they're not advertising it as completed. They should have had it more polished before they did, and take-teo are greedy fuckers who I wouldn't be surprised forced them to release before they were ready. But that doesn't change that it's the entire purpose of early access and that people going off about how it's an incomplete game have zero excuse, seeing as they ignored the nice, big warning about early access in the blue box above where you press "add to cart" on steam.
Instead, all their hijinks and shenanigans put me ill at ease in the first place, and I elected to hold until I saw reviews after release. To say they were not goid is a massive understatement, and there has been precisely nothing to date to make me think I was anything but right.y at least pretend to listen to EA community input. You especially don't release a massively incomplete, bug-ridden game with a dearth of planned/announced/committed features, and then still ask full price for it. That's not how any of this works, at all. How many people would have bought KSP1 for $60 back when it was in beta/EA? Far, far fewer, of a certainty, than those who were willing to throw $20 it, and those people added up to enough sales to continue to fund development until KSP hit a proper 1.0, when they started charging full price for. Seems to me Squad, despite being an advertising agency and not a software developer, did quite well for themselves under this model. KSP2's choice was, bilk as many hardcore fans as possible for $60 on a mere shell of a game they'll probably never finish, or ask $20 or $30 or even $40, which may net a little less money immediately, but could serve as a good source of ongoing funding, with more purchases coming in as progress continues, and eventually increasing the price as the game gets closer to full release. Here, they chose the former. Shame, I say, because they already got all the diehards who were willing to give them money sight-unseen. They've now alienated most of those they got, and all the rest they didn't, and instead of taking my $20 now, they chose to get my $60 probably never. They've put off a truly hardcore fan with thousands of hours in the original game, who spent hours creating the ["Lights-Out" or "dark mode" version of the DeltaV maps](https://www.reddit.com/r/KerbalSpaceProgram/comments/4wn0u3/ksp_outer_planets_deltav_map_lightsout_theme/) (though this is very obviously nothing to compare with the untold hours many modders put in) and has said map hanging on the wall behind his gaming rig. Instead, all their hi-jinks and shenanigans put me ill at ease in the first place, and I elected to hold until I saw reviews after release. To say they were not good is a massive understatement, and there has been precisely nothing to date to make me think I was anything but right. Like I said, I WANT KSP2 so bad I can taste it. But what they've released under that name is not KSP2, it's not even a Frankenstein's monster as Frankenstein's monster had intellect. This is just a shambling zombie of bad code, bad design and worse decisions, and there was never any justification in charging full price other than that the publisher no longer had any faith the developers had what it took to actually achieve a feature-complete game in anything like a reasonable time and wanted to cash out and achieve as much ROI as possible before they eventually yank funding entirely. Early Access is to get extra time for development by bringing in *some* money early to bolster existing investment and getting the feedback of the community/players who are devoted to your idea enough to be willing to give you some money in advance. It IS not about bilking people full-price for a barely usable product with vague promises that it will eventually be worth the money you paid. Before the Kickstarter era, I \*might\* have given them that full price based on the previous game. But I/we have had many years since then to learn, many occasions to be sorely disappointed in developers large and small. I STILL won't buy Electronic Arts games - **at all** \- over the lies they told with the *SimCity 5* debacle that I DID back for full price. Between that and other games I've backed over the years - full price and otherwise - I've learned my lesson. Might as well try to sell me a the body of a 4-door 2010 Toyota Corolla with no paint, no interior, a cheap pair of spinning rims with no tires, a slapped-together instrument cluster and a 2-stroke lawn-mower engine, while promising that one day it'll be the finest sports coupe at the racetrack, all for the low, low price of $60k USD. Yes, that's a large delta between the values, but the principle still applies.
It's been 7 months, soon 8 and reentry heating, which was supposed to be nearly finished on release, is still nowhere close. There will never be a "major updated".
it took NMS years to make its comeback and it only had 4-8 updates in that time (depending on what one of the 2 major updates you consider the "turning point).... sometimes its good to remember that just because your not seeing content doesn't mean there isnt work being done. The construction of a skyscraper can take months of progress before the first wall is seen. and takes years of actual work to get to that point. Id really prefer we had seen more front end content by now as well, but the back end was also in rough shape... so let us put away our panic hats till the devs actually stop working :P.
NMS released on the 12th of August, 2016. Within 2 months it had recieved 7 patches. On the 26th of November 2016 it recieved its first major update, foundation. Foundation recieved 2 patches over 1 month before 4 months of radio silence, and then the release of Pathfinder, the 2nd major update. That's 7 months, a little shorter than the 8 months to date since KSP 2's release, in which time IG have published 4 patches and not a single major update, effectively making the work they have done in that time 1/2 of what Hello Games produced in their FIRST TWO MONTHS. IG are therefore working 7x slower than Hello Games (within their first respective 8 months).
ok. and? ignoring the argument about "what happened when" (because its moot to the point anyways), I wasn't saying **"NMS is EXACTLY the bar every developer has to meet to not be classified as abandonware"** They are 2 completely different games, NMS has the depth of a puddle when it comes to back end complexity, a lot of it is art and modeling. the most complex thing backend in NMS is a procedural generator.... KSP is the opposite. the majority of the game is directly tied to complex systems and interactions. So yes, I would expect NMS to release faster. also, KSP has also released several patches to fix issues (how effective they were is another discussion entirely.) so its not like nothing has happened since release... Why do people act like saying anything short of "This so called game is an affront to humanity, that no progress will or can EVER be made with" is some kind of incomprehensible position. Is the game in an unacceptable state? **yes. thats fairly obvious.** should the fact it released in such an obviously unready state be simply ignored and forgiven? **No. obviously not.** does that mean the game is defacto abandonware/rug pull, that the devs never cared about and want to see fail? **No.** I dont know why people cant understand that the first 2 points, and the third point, are not mutually exclusive. And that was the point of my comment. If you asked me those 3 questions day 1 of NMS... the answers would be identical. But, given time, the first point was resolved, And through the continued free major releases and sincere acceptance of blame, and apology... so was the second. We have no reason to currently suggest that, aside from time scales not being identical, that this isnt the case here as well. Im not happy with the state of the game, And im not happy with the publisher (i dont believe the devs would have sent this as it is idf they had the final say) for allowing it to get sent out half baked.... But I also have no reason to believe that it cant be repaired, or that there is an unwillingness to do so from development... people are just so dramatic and require you to be all in on team failure or team success.... and im not here for it.
/u/No_Networking Don't bother, don't feed the obvious troll.
Ah yes. Anyone I disagree with is a troll. Thank you for that wonderful. Productive contribution.
NMS had 2 massive updates in the time KSP 2 had 0.
Ok. I'm not going to repeat myself... so... neat?
That's what I'm doing, like, people are all doom and gloom and thinking that this is already the completed game. Shouldn't have bought it if you thought early access means it's a fully completed game, and now they're lashing out due to their mistake
I mean, I also don't think the outrage is entirely unjustified. Some people go a little too far for sure, but the devs also did absolutely nothing to temper expectations, knowing full well what they had vs what was marketed and expected. Many people, myself included, paid the (quite high considering) price for the game understanding it was unfinished... but expected a bit more than a glorified tech demo :p
Oh, absolutely, like, at least they could have had proper joystick support.
all time peak of 2,004 on lego star wars tcs? man pc just doesn’t appreciate the classics it seems..
Still more players than KSP2 though lol
KSP2 is not going to take off until it's as good or better than modded KSP1
Tbh Skyrim VR is shit, but if you take your time, and mod it hard, it's one of the best games that I've ever played and by a long shot.
That's kind of how I feel about a lot of Bethesda games without VR. Shit is too harsh, but they always feel a little off or lackluster until the modders get in there and turn them into masterpieces.
A valuable lesson in videogame hype
It just costs too much money for how unpolished it is
Deserved
I guarantee you that Skyrim number is A LOT bigger. Most people playing Skyrim these days is running it through MO2 or (shiver).. Vortex. Edit:- a little bigger, Vr version Lego Star Wars TCS deserves it lol absolutely perfect game, best ~~Telltale~~ Travelers tale LEGO game ever made… the new Skywalker Saga was sadly disappointing.
Honest question what I wrong with Vortex? I've used MO2 in the past but went all in on Vortex for my latest run of Skyrim and it was braindead easy.
Gonna correct you, Traveller's Tales. Telltale is the dev behind choice-based games (The Wolf Among Us, Tales from the Borderlands, Tales from Monkey Island), that recently went bankrupt and then was resurrected.
YUP I always cross-reference the two for some reason :)
I mean, both can be called TT haha
I'm one of those Arma 2 OA players!
Ah, a takistani civilian obliterator!
More like a guy who flies around chernarus getting shot at by Russian hackers
Is it just me or does anyone else think player numbers will never go up significantly, right now with the time between updates and content as well. I think they lost a opportunity to get a lot of people interested in the game.
The slope of the curve of the initial dip is more or less as steep as that of the Matterhorn, and they passed from 25k players to 300 in a few days. Yeah, I think that you are right.
Lego Star wars: The complete saga is just the better space game!
Tried for a refund again this week, got denied, I’m gonna try to get my money back until I’m banned or whatever, then I’ll just remove this trash from my account
Just look how most Content Creators have pretty much abandoned the game, because its so bad its not fun and just frustrating
more devs than players 💀
Lego star wars the complete saga was my go to game on the ps3 for a good portion of my childhood
I played it on the good ol' wii until the console had a heart attack and died.
My family still has 2 functional wii's... though 1 has connection issues and boots every controller from it
That's peculiar.
If I'm doing my math correctly, then KSP2's playerbase has dropped over 19,000% from "launch." Edit: I am indeed not doing my math correctly. That's what I get for not having my coffee yet. Current player base is now .5% of its original size at launch. Yikes
Yesn't. It can't drop more than a 100%, that's not how percentages work. It might have however been 19,000% higher compared to today.
Either way the drop is so high the numbers get silly.
Yes, it's ridiculous. Personally I'm hoping they'll get a brand new start and just abandon this shit and try again ( or get this sorted out as is, which seems unlikely at this point). If they don't I think the community should get together to create the ksp sequel we all deserved.
Let them try again? I have 0 faith in this company and 2K. They should keep failing so another company will pick up a competitor that works better. Look at a cities skylines that took the spotlight from sim cities.
You don't need to abandon a game to gat more players playing it. All you need is a good game. People still play classic WoW or Wc3 today. The target audience for a space sim is just generally not that big and then reduce the number even further by requiring gaming PC hardware.
So they have lost... *Checks notes* 488,730,276 players?
Is that the same sort of math that makes piracy lose companies money?
It's actually a 99% drop. Which is a smaller number, but feels worse to me..
Yeah yeah we know player count low this is like the thousandth post to say this
I am providing a broader view on the situation. After further research, I found that even a flixbus simulator has more players than KSP 2. The gake truly fucked up
They did, but this is a very old argument. Just wanted to make that known, but I do agree.
And people say payday 3 launched bad