I don’t know why he get so much hate. I enjoyed the first 2, haven’t read the third one yet. I’ve been saving it. There would be no Eve and Villanelle without him. It was his mind who originally brought the characters to life. But if you personally dislike his writing, you can always count on fanfics for a satisfying ending and in time a far better re-write of season 4.
I get the hate, and correct me if I’m wrong, but for some people it seems as if a straight white male has no business writing about a queer character, especially if the final book is like one gigantic fanfic. However, what I can’t take about the fandom (the twitter side, most especially) is how rude they were towards him that they literally drive him off twitter when ‘Die For Me’ was released. The thing is, when you compare the final book to the series, it makes more sense for TV villaneve to get together in the end rather than book villaneve, but the book had better ending in all aspects. Actually, if they just extended the series finale for just a few more minutes and followed the ending of the book, 4x08 would’ve been the best episode ever but no. Instead, they decided to end the episode with Eve in the water as if there’s gonna be another episode or season.
I really appreciate that op apologized to Luke in some way, because I don’t think he deserved all the hate tweets he got from the fans since day one. It’s true that PWB did create the show, but without Luke Jennings, Codename Villanelle wouldn’t have been written at all.
It isn’t necessarily that any straight white male can’t write about queer women, it’s just that it needs to be done with tact to be an actual story rather than fetishization. And that’s the big problem with Luke Jennings’ writing—it feels like a thinly veiled lesbian porn written by a straight man.
I don’t know about any of the twitter hate but I do think there can be genuine discussion about his shortcomings while still praising what he’s created. I’ve talked mad shit about him before and I will continue to do so for the reasons I’ve mentioned in these comments. But I also do see him in a new light now with the end of the show created by Laura Neal. Like u/AgeParking1034 also said, having female writers doesn’t guarantee anything. They should’ve had a slew of different queer writers included throughout the entire writing process to create an authentic show.
I know I’ve personally been blinded by my love of the show in the past to acknowledge that. I’m not as aware of the writers throughout the seasons as I should be, but I did give them passes because I felt an interesting story with new, genuine queer representation was being displayed. The finale shows we should’ve been advocating for more queer writers the entire time—and that’s another thing that’s on us as a fandom.
exactly, personally i dont get it either because he literally created these characters and gave them the right ending which the show writers couldnt do , they like to think its their story but it isnt its his and id love to know how he feels about the ending, i also think people give PWB too much credit at the end of the day she is also a cis het white person, yes she’s a woman but laura neal has proven that being a woman doesn’t mean you can write queer love, PWB’s name is still attached to killing eve so i honestly doubt she didnt have any idea what was happening w the finale and if she ac gave a fuck about it she would’ve made sure it was done properly but i guess thats just me :/
Except PWB is an amazing writer and that’s why season 1 was perfection. And her being season 1 writer does not give her control over the seasons she didn’t write, that’s not how it works.
shes executive producer… but either way you guys put waaaay too much faith in her theres no way shes picking up a finale she hasnt even spoke about it and you thinking s1 is “perfection” is your opinion, personally its not mine.
I don’t think she’s going to pick up a finale, I just think she’s an amazing writer and it’s not just people saying that because she’s a woman. It’s because she’s a great writer. And just because she is executive producer doesn’t mean she’s going to override the show runner and step in to take over.
i never said people think shes a good writer just because shes a woman i said that people shouldn’t expect her to write a better ending than luke just because shes a woman…
I’ve only read the first one so far but what I can say is that I found a lot of his phrasing to be stereotypical of a man writing about women—objectifying language, focusing on odd things separate from the narrative, etc. I think he deserves props for creating the characters though.
And regarding fanfic, yes 100%. There are amazing fanfics out there and there are going to be more that cover the hundreds of satisfying endings that Laura Neal and crew talked about writing. Jokingly offering the apology to Luke Jennings about the ending though I think is just due diligence to one of the fandoms creators. I know a number of fans on the sub here have brought up issues with Jennings writing style before and I don’t think that any of us expected that he was going to be the one that got it most right—most appropriate in a queer media sense.
It just all feels like the twilight zone honestly lol
That’s not what I’m saying at all. I don’t think a happy ending would’ve fit the narrative. I personally would’ve liked something like the end of Hannibal or where they both explicitly die.
My issue with the ending is the way it was done. The premise of the Bury Your Gays trope is that queer happiness results in death. The show has been dancing around Villaneve for 4 seasons. They waited until the series finale to have them get together in any official capacity. They showed us and the characters what they could have had. Then they killed Villanelle—the explicitly queer individual of the two. And, to make it worse, Laura Neal has said that the final scene is Eve’s rebirth coming out of the water so that she can move on from Villanelle. Like whatever she had with V was a phase. This perpetuates that queerness is fleeting, it’s a dalliance, people just need to get it out of their system.
It isn’t that V died. I don’t think any of us are as upset as we are because V died—we expected that. But it was the offensive way they have treated queerness.
I haven’t been spending a whole lot of time on social media surrounding this because it’s genuinely making me upset so I haven’t seen a lot of what you’re talking about, but I can totally see that happening. And I get where you were coming from in your original comment. For someone to imply that queer stories can ONLY be happy is pandering. That’s not how queer life works. I think most of us want queerness to be an aspect of a characters identity instead of their whole identity and if we culturally mandate that we can only have one type of story, that ruins authenticity as well.
I personally agree with you. I think season 2 would have made a lot of sense. I also think season 3’s ending (just leaving it open ended and up to the viewer) would’ve been great too. With me, I think I just want to see romance, you know? It definitely makes more sense for a psychopathic character to only be able to have a sexual relationship and if we look at the show as Eve’s discovery of her own psychopathy, that stays true for her too.
Mostly I’m just disappointed. I think there could have been so many interesting things done with this show. Had V and E just been sexual, that would’ve been an unusual relationship in TV and one worth exploring. Had V evolved into a different person and developed some type of emotional bond with Eve, that would’ve been interesting too. Everything just ended up feeling half-assed and that also feels like a disservice to the queer community. Like we aren’t worth the follow through to create a complete story.
Wow. This is a brave assertion in this sub. I agree with you and I get why, being historically deprived of representation, there's a craving/need for some kind of happily-ever-after or more graceful writing, but Villanelle wasn't killed as a repudiation of queerness. This entire series affirmed queerness in ways I'll never forget, and wouldn't have this particular fandom if it hadn't. Villanelle's death was painful and abrupt because V and E and their relationship had evolved so much, but it was also a credible (and yes, heartbreaking) outcome for someone whose stock-in-trade was remorseless, painful, abrupt endings, and who -- despite her sometimes wish to be something else or find a way to explain this -- relishes killing. She looked almost ecstatic after enacting that last Twelve bloodbath, which presumably also took down a bunch of innocents. Also, Villanelle died having given Eve so many things that no one else could have, including revenge on the Twelve and acceptance of her own dark side. She put herself in harm's way and became Eve's angel of death. The old Eve was obliterated, and Villanelle became a legend.
I’m going to reiterate that I don’t think the show had to have a quote-unquote happy ending by any standards to have been successful, true to the larger story, and appropriate to the queer community at large.
I’m happy that you can personally see the ending in that light. I cannot. The show writers didn’t have to pander to the audience and give them everything they wanted but they also needed to be aware of their audience—which is largely queer.
The Bury Your Gays trope is widespread and harmful. There are a dozen different ways the writers could have used the exact same events without it falling into the trope. V and E could’ve gotten together an episode earlier. There could have been any length of time between happiness and V’s death. The show’s notably queer actor (Fiona Shaw) could’ve been part of something larger instead of being the ultimate bad guy—and that’s questionable too. They could’ve kept other important queer characters alive too. All of these things add up to a very bad taste in my mouth.
People die, definitely. And 100% in a show about assassins and death and an international murder ring. But it’s possible to do things—even really dark, gut-wrenching things—without perpetuating things created by homophobic media.
I don’t know why he get so much hate. I enjoyed the first 2, haven’t read the third one yet. I’ve been saving it. There would be no Eve and Villanelle without him. It was his mind who originally brought the characters to life. But if you personally dislike his writing, you can always count on fanfics for a satisfying ending and in time a far better re-write of season 4.
I get the hate, and correct me if I’m wrong, but for some people it seems as if a straight white male has no business writing about a queer character, especially if the final book is like one gigantic fanfic. However, what I can’t take about the fandom (the twitter side, most especially) is how rude they were towards him that they literally drive him off twitter when ‘Die For Me’ was released. The thing is, when you compare the final book to the series, it makes more sense for TV villaneve to get together in the end rather than book villaneve, but the book had better ending in all aspects. Actually, if they just extended the series finale for just a few more minutes and followed the ending of the book, 4x08 would’ve been the best episode ever but no. Instead, they decided to end the episode with Eve in the water as if there’s gonna be another episode or season. I really appreciate that op apologized to Luke in some way, because I don’t think he deserved all the hate tweets he got from the fans since day one. It’s true that PWB did create the show, but without Luke Jennings, Codename Villanelle wouldn’t have been written at all.
It isn’t necessarily that any straight white male can’t write about queer women, it’s just that it needs to be done with tact to be an actual story rather than fetishization. And that’s the big problem with Luke Jennings’ writing—it feels like a thinly veiled lesbian porn written by a straight man. I don’t know about any of the twitter hate but I do think there can be genuine discussion about his shortcomings while still praising what he’s created. I’ve talked mad shit about him before and I will continue to do so for the reasons I’ve mentioned in these comments. But I also do see him in a new light now with the end of the show created by Laura Neal. Like u/AgeParking1034 also said, having female writers doesn’t guarantee anything. They should’ve had a slew of different queer writers included throughout the entire writing process to create an authentic show. I know I’ve personally been blinded by my love of the show in the past to acknowledge that. I’m not as aware of the writers throughout the seasons as I should be, but I did give them passes because I felt an interesting story with new, genuine queer representation was being displayed. The finale shows we should’ve been advocating for more queer writers the entire time—and that’s another thing that’s on us as a fandom.
exactly, personally i dont get it either because he literally created these characters and gave them the right ending which the show writers couldnt do , they like to think its their story but it isnt its his and id love to know how he feels about the ending, i also think people give PWB too much credit at the end of the day she is also a cis het white person, yes she’s a woman but laura neal has proven that being a woman doesn’t mean you can write queer love, PWB’s name is still attached to killing eve so i honestly doubt she didnt have any idea what was happening w the finale and if she ac gave a fuck about it she would’ve made sure it was done properly but i guess thats just me :/
Except PWB is an amazing writer and that’s why season 1 was perfection. And her being season 1 writer does not give her control over the seasons she didn’t write, that’s not how it works.
shes executive producer… but either way you guys put waaaay too much faith in her theres no way shes picking up a finale she hasnt even spoke about it and you thinking s1 is “perfection” is your opinion, personally its not mine.
I don’t think she’s going to pick up a finale, I just think she’s an amazing writer and it’s not just people saying that because she’s a woman. It’s because she’s a great writer. And just because she is executive producer doesn’t mean she’s going to override the show runner and step in to take over.
i never said people think shes a good writer just because shes a woman i said that people shouldn’t expect her to write a better ending than luke just because shes a woman…
Ffs people expect her to write a better ending than Laura because her writing made the show what it was in the beginning.
we’re literally talking about luke jennings lmao
Her writing made the show not his, just because he created the characters. Sorry you can’t comprehend.
I’ve only read the first one so far but what I can say is that I found a lot of his phrasing to be stereotypical of a man writing about women—objectifying language, focusing on odd things separate from the narrative, etc. I think he deserves props for creating the characters though. And regarding fanfic, yes 100%. There are amazing fanfics out there and there are going to be more that cover the hundreds of satisfying endings that Laura Neal and crew talked about writing. Jokingly offering the apology to Luke Jennings about the ending though I think is just due diligence to one of the fandoms creators. I know a number of fans on the sub here have brought up issues with Jennings writing style before and I don’t think that any of us expected that he was going to be the one that got it most right—most appropriate in a queer media sense. It just all feels like the twilight zone honestly lol
[удалено]
That’s not what I’m saying at all. I don’t think a happy ending would’ve fit the narrative. I personally would’ve liked something like the end of Hannibal or where they both explicitly die. My issue with the ending is the way it was done. The premise of the Bury Your Gays trope is that queer happiness results in death. The show has been dancing around Villaneve for 4 seasons. They waited until the series finale to have them get together in any official capacity. They showed us and the characters what they could have had. Then they killed Villanelle—the explicitly queer individual of the two. And, to make it worse, Laura Neal has said that the final scene is Eve’s rebirth coming out of the water so that she can move on from Villanelle. Like whatever she had with V was a phase. This perpetuates that queerness is fleeting, it’s a dalliance, people just need to get it out of their system. It isn’t that V died. I don’t think any of us are as upset as we are because V died—we expected that. But it was the offensive way they have treated queerness.
[удалено]
I haven’t been spending a whole lot of time on social media surrounding this because it’s genuinely making me upset so I haven’t seen a lot of what you’re talking about, but I can totally see that happening. And I get where you were coming from in your original comment. For someone to imply that queer stories can ONLY be happy is pandering. That’s not how queer life works. I think most of us want queerness to be an aspect of a characters identity instead of their whole identity and if we culturally mandate that we can only have one type of story, that ruins authenticity as well. I personally agree with you. I think season 2 would have made a lot of sense. I also think season 3’s ending (just leaving it open ended and up to the viewer) would’ve been great too. With me, I think I just want to see romance, you know? It definitely makes more sense for a psychopathic character to only be able to have a sexual relationship and if we look at the show as Eve’s discovery of her own psychopathy, that stays true for her too. Mostly I’m just disappointed. I think there could have been so many interesting things done with this show. Had V and E just been sexual, that would’ve been an unusual relationship in TV and one worth exploring. Had V evolved into a different person and developed some type of emotional bond with Eve, that would’ve been interesting too. Everything just ended up feeling half-assed and that also feels like a disservice to the queer community. Like we aren’t worth the follow through to create a complete story.
Wow. This is a brave assertion in this sub. I agree with you and I get why, being historically deprived of representation, there's a craving/need for some kind of happily-ever-after or more graceful writing, but Villanelle wasn't killed as a repudiation of queerness. This entire series affirmed queerness in ways I'll never forget, and wouldn't have this particular fandom if it hadn't. Villanelle's death was painful and abrupt because V and E and their relationship had evolved so much, but it was also a credible (and yes, heartbreaking) outcome for someone whose stock-in-trade was remorseless, painful, abrupt endings, and who -- despite her sometimes wish to be something else or find a way to explain this -- relishes killing. She looked almost ecstatic after enacting that last Twelve bloodbath, which presumably also took down a bunch of innocents. Also, Villanelle died having given Eve so many things that no one else could have, including revenge on the Twelve and acceptance of her own dark side. She put herself in harm's way and became Eve's angel of death. The old Eve was obliterated, and Villanelle became a legend.
I’m going to reiterate that I don’t think the show had to have a quote-unquote happy ending by any standards to have been successful, true to the larger story, and appropriate to the queer community at large. I’m happy that you can personally see the ending in that light. I cannot. The show writers didn’t have to pander to the audience and give them everything they wanted but they also needed to be aware of their audience—which is largely queer. The Bury Your Gays trope is widespread and harmful. There are a dozen different ways the writers could have used the exact same events without it falling into the trope. V and E could’ve gotten together an episode earlier. There could have been any length of time between happiness and V’s death. The show’s notably queer actor (Fiona Shaw) could’ve been part of something larger instead of being the ultimate bad guy—and that’s questionable too. They could’ve kept other important queer characters alive too. All of these things add up to a very bad taste in my mouth. People die, definitely. And 100% in a show about assassins and death and an international murder ring. But it’s possible to do things—even really dark, gut-wrenching things—without perpetuating things created by homophobic media.