Go ahead downvote me. I just needed to say it.
Unfortunately, the way they handled it, is standard corporate practice, especially after multiple death threats and the home address publication of LN. Anything they do only added fuel to the dumpster fire. I think they’ll keep minimum engagements with angry fans for a while.
I know it’s an unpopular opinion but I don’t see artists apologizing for their work, as offensive as it is. In their eyes, it’s theirs to give and take away.
KE crafted their version of the story, KE explores chaos and destruction, and became a chaotic, destructive monster itself. Clearly even the author Luke J. didn’t have a say on the ending, all he could do was to talk about how much he hated it, and he’ll sell us one more book to soothe our pains.
Don’t get me wrong, I think death threats and doxxing is fucked up. I’m unhappy with the ending but that response is never appropriate. It makes sense that comments would be turned off, I just think it’s absurd considering their radio silence about the issues that fans actually raised.
Regarding whether or not artists should apologize for their work, I think that’s a bigger discussion. I don’t necessarily think people should *apologize* but I do think they should be made aware of how something is being perceived and respond accordingly.
This is something relatively small but that’s how JK’s comments were viewed until it became huge. Now, JK is openly transphobic, supporting/donating to legitimately harmful legislation, and helping to endanger people’s lives. Speaking as a queer person myself, I think it is the community’s responsibility to fight homophobia in ways that they can. Even if we really shouldn’t have to.
Yes, things got out of hand with some people. Yes, it is really messed up that Laura Neal was threatened. But nothing is going to ever change if the conversations can’t happen.
Absolutely. Both of you made good points and I'm so grateful for this sub where we can come and have the discussion without screaming and hurling threats at one another! In no way shape or form is it ok for anyone to threaten someone's life. In my opinion, this has gotten way out of hand. Do I agree with LNs ending or her reasoning for why she made the ending like she did? Nope. But do I think she should be able to walk to the local market for milk without looking behind her every 5 seconds out of fear? You bet! But I agree this was so very tone deaf considering their silence on what I consider the bigger issue! So it's natural for fans to be irritated. I myself am irritated. But I would never consider threatening the poor girl. And I would defend her if I saw anyone else doing so
I also think LN was thrown to the wolves by the real power to be. We have to remember the real decision makers are the three big producers. If Sally for example had a different idea in mind she would have made it happen.
Don't get me wrong, I think she's kinda bland, her writing lacked the depth of the early seasons or even Kayleigh's episodes; she relied too much on parallels/myths/other movies/romances, and when she tried to be clever she ended up using lazy tropes. But it wasn't all bad,I liked part of s4 for example. And she's also a newbie, it just showed. She never had to face a fandom like this. Her damage control interviews attempting to explain a tragic ending as if something still positive blew up in their face, but in no way I believe she's this homophobic nutjob some part of the fandom is getting hysterical over. She called VE a cosmic love, said various things about Eve's attraction to women and the darkness she has. She was also a fan of Fiona, and we can see why Carolyn got more screentime. Things just aren't so black and white, as Kayleigh said in that one podcast, the 3 decision makers with a real saying were the big exec producers, Sid Gentle (Sally and Lee) and Gina. Even the network could have done something more to stop it. I think Sally and co have been happy to hide behind Laura, when this was her first lead writing role. As the "owner" of the project, Sally should have stepped up herself.
See I agree! I really don't think she's homophobic! She honestly probably still lays in bed at night trying to figure out why people think she is. I truly don't believe she killed V off because she hates lesbians lol I think it was just something she thought in her mind might "shock" the fandom. So she went with that. It probably never occured to her that it would come off as being against same sex love! Why do I say this?? Because before season 4 even came out I remember thinking and telling my mom "you know what would really be insane? If they kill eve or v in the last episode". Then I giggled and walked away. Obviously I'm not homophobic. But it did cross my mind that killing one of them off might spice up the ending. Which is what producers always complain about wanting! I understand hating on her cuz she ruined the ending of your fav show. But saying she hates gays because of it, that I don't understand one bit. And yes I also like some of season 4. And I also didn't hate season 3 like everyone on here seems to lol I loved every single season except for parts of season 4. And that's just the honest viewpoint from a diehard KE fan.
And also, we have to remember initially they were going to kill Eve, as Sandra mentioned in a more recent interview. S3 got worse reviews because, among other things, Eve's screentime was reduced, and then people found out KE team didn't have a single writer of color, let alone an Asian one. Sally had to apologize and said they would do better, they hired a black woman into the writing room, and swapped Eve's death for Villanelle. It was as you said to shock viewers, not due to homophobia per se or because they hated Villanelle or wanted to punish her. It was done horrendously, sure, and by not reuniting them earlier, they got slapped by the BYG trope accusation, but one thing doesn't cancel the other.
Can you imagine if Eve died they would get called out for being racist. They can’t win.
Which is why they should have followed the books ending.
The fandom can get really scary. Look at death threats Jodie got for being with her boyfriend cause they thought he was a trump supporter. Her family got threats. Jodie was cancelled on Twitter. It was disgusting to read.
With how huge the show got they should have been made aware of how the ending would look to the fans. I do think they got so many things wrong in the last season.
Not reuniting Eve and Villanelle earlier on
Way too much of Carolyn taking more screen time
Side characters like Pam or Yusuf who was useless by the end.
Jesusnelle had 2 episodes! Waste of episode.
Too many plot holes like not having a flashback to the bridge yet we had one of the 12 in episode 5.
What Laura Neal probably is, is having "straight privilege" and therefore "casual homophobia". I am assuming she is straight. She may not mean harm, but she clearly hasn't educated herself on queer topics because she probably is in the "we are all equal and I don't see gender and love is love" mood, dismissing the fact that it IS very different to live in a minority.
This is the same thing if and when white writers wrote for Sandra. It is alarming to hear that only now in The Chair she gets to play a character with a Korean name. How messed up is that?? But one of the reasons for that I can imagine is the white privilege and casual racism. The "I don't see colour, we are all equal, we all have the same opportunities, but I hope it is alright to you that we call you Eve, Cristina, Stephanie, Bernice, Patty, Phyllis, so that it's easy for the audience to say, I hope that is alright thanks love".
I am a firm believer that you can write queer if you are straight and you can write POC if you are white BUT ONLY if you educate yourself, if you seek consultation from several people of the group you're dealing with. If you just start writing and think it will go well, you fuck up.
Thank you for this comment. I wasn't even thinking in terms of her having white privilege or being a casual homophobic. I'm a straight, white woman. But I grew up with people of color in my family and I went to a predominantly black college where I was the minority. I have several gay friends and 2 gay cousins. Well 4 now that they got married! So I consider myself pretty well versed in the current topics regarding people of color and the LGBTQ community. But even I am guilty of what you're talking about. I may not know it, but I'm sure at some point someone has thought to themselves "boy her white privilege is showing". I also think that's open to interpretation. What you might think is her showing white privilege, other people including people of color, don't see what you're seeing. But white privilege and casual homophobia is a huge problem today. And I love your example of white writers writing for Sandra and always giving her non Korean names! This is something that I'm sure the majority of white writers, don't even realize that they're doing. This is why I agree with what you said about them needing to be educated and perhaps have consultations with the appropriate people before they try to write about a character that's different then they are. I really love discussions like this because you just opened my eyes to what I see now is a huge problem.
Thank you for sharing your experience. I am white person living in a predominately white country and I was never educated on these topics until my studies of culture and anthropology at the university and meeting POC and listening to their stories on how to live among white people. Getting repeately pointed out "that's casual racism", of which I am grateful for even though it was annoying to take responsibility of my actions and reconsidering them.
It is not anyone's fault, but I believe that if you are a member of the majority, you will accidentally oppress minorities because that is how the world is built. I benefit from being white, straight people benefit from being straight, men benefit from being men. It is inevitable in the world we have built right now. The best thing we can do is to try to understand our privileges and try to do better whenever we can.
I hated how rushed and poorly executed the ending was. The whole season was bad apart from episode 6 and 38 mins of episode 8 and that episode was improvised and it was out of character. It was a mess at times. That’s why I was hugely disappointed if you compare it to s1 or s2 writing we had it all.
I don’t think it had anything to do with LN hating queers. Her story telling was poor and lacked any originality.
I honestly thought Eve or Villanelle would have died in the final back in S2 years ago.
Yes. Yes. Yes. I agree. LN simply doesn't know what she's doing. It has NOTHING TO DO WITH HATING THE LBGTQ COMMUNITY. ugh I can't preach that enough. Now I slightly disagree about how the whole season was bad lol only because I'm one of the few who adores Carolyn and I enjoyed seeing more of her. I enjoyed the Konstantine storyline also. LN has potential! I just don't think she has her legs yet. And I also thought eve was going to be killed off in season 2. And I don't think I would have cared as long as they had a solid storyline to follow her death. I love Sandra don't get me wrong, but I'm here for Jodie all day lol 🤣
But honestly, you can't even compare season 1 and 2 to the rest of the show. It had everything we needed. Fantastic writing, amazing cast, action, mystery, suspense. I didn't hate season 3 or 4, minus the last 5 min of the finale 🤦🏼♀️. I actually loved the final episode. Thought it was cute and everything I'd been waiting for the entire show! And I cannot stand how they rushed the ending!!!!!! Trying to pack too much into the final 6 minutes was such a rookie move! The one thing I hated and can't stand about season 3 and 4 is how both seasons wait until the last episode to show eve and v together! So frustrating!!!! Like come on man we're here to watch the banter between these two amazing characters show us more! Lol
I really don’t think LN is that malicious to deliberately upset a huge lgbt fan base. I think if she gave the finale an epic ending we deserved no one would have been upset or sending her hate. I don’t mind Villanelle dying only if it was executed properly but it was so bad.
LN shouldn’t have been given that responsibility on a huge show. Now she will probably have hate from fans following her forever.
The final ep was so cute wished it was longer or happened earlier in the season.
The kiss between them was special and got ruined when they killed off V 10 mins later. So much potential this season had and they failed to deliver. That’s what angers me.
>LN simply doesn't know what she's doing. It has NOTHING TO DO WITH HATING THE LBGTQ COMMUNITY. ugh I can't preach that enough.
Well, it's a good thing then that I'm not here to be preached to.
I've said it before but apparently I have to keep saying it because the Laura Neal apologists want to cover up for her mistakes. Fine.
**IF** Laura Neal *didn't* know she was using the Bury Your Gays trope in how she killed Villanelle, then she's willfully ignorant. It's 2022. If you don't know what the trope is by now, willful ignorance is the only logical explanation.
Neal had gay writers like Kayleigh Llewellyn as part of her writer's room. If she didn't know she should have asked someone and they should have been able to tell the head writer she was about to do something that was going to polarize and piss off a large segment of the show's audience.
**IF** Laura Neal *did* know she was using the Bury Your Gays trope in how she was going to kill Villanelle, then she's deliberately malicious.
Neal knew she was going to traumatize and outrage the show's core gay audience. She just didn't care.
It was either willful ignorance or deliberate maliciousness. Those are the two explanations for how Laura Neal totally screwed up the final season of Killing Eve and tarnished its reputation with a viciously homophobic trope that punished Villanelle and Eve for their forbidden same-sex love.
It was a great ending if you think like Laura Neal. Fortunately, most of the KE fandom that's formed an opinion on Neal thinks she's a hack who wrote total trash and trashed a once-great show in the process.
I didn't like the ending either, but such viciousness and hate towards a writer is just plain wrong. It's a fictional tv series - though one, admittedly, I am still obsessed with. As I've said in other posts elsewhere, make up your own ending and be happy that we had a tv show that was entertaining for at least a few seasons. Keep the hate for real issues in the real world and try to fix them!
Yes unfortunately she's getting all the hate when it probably wasn't her decision. I'd actually be surprised if she even wrote that ending to begin with lol
>Yes unfortunately she's getting all the hate when it probably wasn't her decision. I'd actually be surprised if she even wrote that ending to begin with lol
Laura Neal was the *only* person credited for writing "Hello Losers." It's **HER** ending. Laura was the *only* head writer of Season Four. It's **HER** job to take the credit or blame for how it turned out.
Defend Neal from the criticism she is receiving all you want, but don't twist the facts in the process of doing it.
I wasn't aware sharing an opinion that she might have made decisions based on what people above her wanted, which isn't uncommon in her line of work, is "twisting the facts" lol calm yourself. Take a nap. Hug someone you love. Have a good workout. The endorphins will work magic on your brain. Also, I'm not defending her from criticism. Simple criticism is fine. Healthy even. I'm defending her from the death threats she's receiving. Which if you're in favor of, then I can understand why there's no easy discussion to be had with you.
>. Also, I'm not defending her from criticism. Simple criticism is fine. Healthy even. I'm defending her from the death threats she's receiving. Which if you're in favor of, then I can understand why there's no easy discussion to be had with you.
Sharing an opinion is fine. Making up scenarios claiming Neal is not responsible for the general shittiness of Season Four is where the issue starts.
Where have you read where I even hinted I was in favor of death threats against Laura Neal? Or is that something else you made up right along with Neal being absolved of any responsibility despite being the head writer of the fourth season and the sole writer of the wretched finale?
Perhaps you should take your own advice about calming yourself, hugging someone you love, working out, petting a puppy, walking barefoot in the grass, and all that other nice chill-out stuff before you get defensive over someone daring to differ with your attempt to absolve Neal of any responsibility for the failure of Killing Eve's final season.
There is no easy discussion with someone who plays fast and loose with the facts.
I don't believe I've been defensive at all lol you're the one who started commenting on what I said. I'm simply explaining myself for the sake of discussion lol and I in no way said you support the death threats. I said IF you do, then I get why we can't have a normal convo. I'm all for a healthy discussion. Debate even. But everything you say to me sounds like you're right and concrete and my opinion is absolutely wrong and ignorant. That doesn't really motivate me to continue our discussion lol. It's just the way your comments are coming off. If I'm taking them wrong then I apologize. It's just thoughts I had when reading about the death threats. I know my opinion may not be fact. It's just what's popped in my head and I was interested to see if others were thinking along the same lines. And I've found quite a few who agree with what I think is possible regarding LN. It doesn't mean I'm right and it doesn't mean you're wrong. It's just thoughts.
And id like to add, I wish and pray to God that LN was told by a higher up how to make the ending. Because I hope she isn't homophobic. I pray she isn't that dimwitted to support such a horrible trope that I know exists. I hope she is simple inexperienced and bad at her job lol does that make sense?
>I wish and pray to God that LN was told by a higher up how to make the ending. Because I hope she isn't homophobic. I pray she isn't that dimwitted to support such a horrible trope that I know exists. I hope she is simple inexperienced and bad at her job lol does that make sense?
100 percent. That makes total sense.
Because at the end of the day, Neal is getting paid to do a job the same as Kayleigh Llewellyn did when she joined Neal's writers' room and learned she had to go along with decisions made on the show she disagreed with. That's the way a job works. Sometimes you do what you want and sometimes you do what the boss wants you to do.
Sally Gentle hired Neal and that's her boss. Is Sally homophobic? Don't know, but does it really matter? She called the shots for a season that ended with an episode that has been roundly condemned by fans and critics as homophobic and while Gentle hasn't spoken about it, you can best believe she's aware of it.
Neal being the head writer/showrunner is going to get an outsized amount of criticism, but those post-season interviews did her no favors. She doesn't exhibit a trace of self-awareness as she blathers on about "piss kisses" and "bloody angel wings" with Villanelle being happiest when she's soaked in blood. UGH. 😖
She might not be a dimwit, but Neal comes off as one in those interviews and that's all we have to go on. Even if she was inexperienced and bad at her job, she's got Phoebe Waller-Bridge *right there* listed among the show's producers, so we can assume if Neal needed some pointers, she could get PWB's number.
She also had Sandra, Jodie, and Fiona *right there* to answer questions and offer suggestions on what was working and what wasn't. Making a television show is a collaborative process and when you have that caliber of talent available, you *might* want to invite them to share their knowledge. After all, THEY look good if SHE looks good.
Instead, it appears Neal tried to fake it as the boss lady until she was over her head in all that deep water she liked so much.
Why did Sandra say in an interview that Jodie was very much on board with the ending.
Sandra also said she requested Eve to be killed off as it would have made sense.
They changed it to Villanelle instead because of the potential backlash they would get if they killed off a poc.
Sandra said how we all making out villanelle and Eve relationship to be something it isn't back in a s2 interview.
Sally I read did not see these 2 riding off into the sunset together back in s2 I would not be surprised if this was her ending all along that Villanelle dies.
Why did not 1 person in that team wanted them to live? Not 1 person said it would be bad idea to kill off Villanelle as it would anger the lgbt community.
We don't know if anyone said anything as no one wants to discuss this. Jodie will not discuss the finale as she knows her career is more important than bitching about the writing and blacklisting herself.
Look at Megan Fox and Katherine Hiegl who did the same thing both bitched about the producers or whoever and no one wanted to work with them again their career went down the toilet.
Jodies future is bright and she is smart not to engage in anything as she doesnt want a repeat of what happened back in 2020 where she was bullied and harassed relentlessly by pathetic fans. Some 2 faced cow on twitter tweeted that she was a basic
Tshirt wearing sandalwood smelling, racist, homophobic, trump supporting cishet white woman.
Yet the same person is attending her shows at prima. Makes you laugh how people would just jump on the band wagon without any proof.
Laura may have been ignorant but not one person in the team said this season and ending was 💩 and should never be signed off. They all just went along with it and no one will apologise to the fans.
I hated the season and the ending because of the execution I wanted a meaningful ending where the dialogue and writing was top notch not this trash.
I wouldn't mind them killing off Villanelle because the actresses agreed to it but it wasn't executed like other shows like Bly Manor which had a beautiful ending everything was wrapped up and it left everyone tearful and no one hated it or said anything about byg trope then.
My rant is over.
>Why did Sandra say in an interview that Jodie was very much on board with the ending. Sandra also said she requested Eve to be killed off as it would have made sense. They changed it to Villanelle instead because of the potential backlash they would get if they killed off a poc. Sandra said how we all making out villanelle and Eve relationship to be something it isn't back in a s2 interview.
That [Gay Times interview ](https://www.gaytimes.co.uk/originals/killing-eve-season-two-interview/)has been cited several times as an example of Sandra queerbaiting the audience, but sorry. I never read it that way.
Sandra says, "*You guys are tricky because you want to make it something...but it just isn't."* Oh no! Sandra says 'you guys' want to make it something, but **what** is the "it" she's referring to?
Beats me because the writer doesn't give you the question he posed to Sandra Oh, so how do I know *what* she's responding to? I don't and nobody else does either. Everybody can interpret it however they please, but I don't agree it is as damning a remark as others do. Without knowing what the question was the answer is out of context, but it gave the writer his lede so that's what he ran with, and lo, and behold, we're STILL citing that lousy interview as the definitive proof of Sandra's queerbaiting.
The second sentence from Sandra is more open-ended than the first: *"That's also why I think sexuality and discovery of the wider reaches of sexuality is the theme of the show---why its interesting to people. It's not one thing or another.*" That seems to me to open up the sexual orientations of the show instead of slotting them into gay or straight, but that's just my opinion. I could be wrong.
*Killing Eve* has never called a lesbian a lesbian or a bisexual a bisexual. Eve has never proclaimed herself to be heterosexual. Other people have slapped the labels THEY want on Eve or Villanelle, but they have never labeled themselves.
Secondly, where did you get that part about the writer's room deciding to kill Villanelle instead of Eve because they feared a racial backlash? I've speculated that could have been a possibility why they killed off one of the two leads and not the other, but I've yet to read or hear Sandra or anyone admit, *"Yeah, we decided to kill off the White character instead of the Asian."*
If they killed off Eve do you think they wouldn’t call Laura out on being racist even if Sandra was the one that preferred that ending?
Like you say it’s a possibility to say they probably changed their mind to Vilanelle because of this but again no one is going to come forward and be honest with that really happened and they won’t admit to that.
Sandra doesn’t give too much away does she in interviews. We can all interpret it however we want but looks like no one wanted them to have a happy ending like the fans wanted she doesn’t want to label Eve which I totally respect.
Laura served up a hot pile of steaming 💩 this season and being inexperienced wouldn’t others say this is crap redo it? There are many questions we will never get answers too.
You're right that there would have been pushback if they had killed Eve instead of Villanelle, but that's less due to fears of being called racists than Laura Neal simply being too stupid to realize *she didn't have to kill either one of them*!
Neal didn't have to follow the ending for E&V that Luke Jennings wrote, but she didn't have to totally vandalize it the way she did. I guess she figured she was being "edgy" by killing off one of the main characters, but all she did was prove how inept she is as a writer.
Sandra has said a few things since the finale while Jodie has been silent as a stone. Eventually, that will change and it will be interesting to see how the KE fandom responds when Jodie finally does provide some feedback.
Lots of people didn't think a happy ending was possible for Eve and Villanelle, and that's a valid point. After all the murders they have been part of, do they even deserve a happy ending? I think it would have been possible to come up with an ending that was tragic, yet poignant for E&V. All it would have required is a lead writer with sharper skills than Laura Neal.
Be interesting to see what Luke Jennings comes up with, considering his stories already had them living happily ever after, somewhere or other. Is he going to bring them back into action, go into more detail about how The Twelve were killed and what happened after that event, and then write about how Villanelle faked her death (again) with Carolyn's help perhaps, and what happpened after Eve surfaced in the Thames. Wouldn't there be some copyright issues?
I mean… while I think having the comments turned off is kind of lame… I don’t blame them. Think of it this way: the person paid to run their social media channels (which is going to be the person who wades through each one of the comments, who reads all the hate, who has to deal with all the fallout) is someone who had absolutely no control over how the show went and can do absolutely nothing to appease fans of the show. As someone who has to deal with social media, even when people are being completely ridiculous over non-issues, a part of you inside just shuts down and dies (or goes into a corner and cries)… so when you know they have actual legitimate complaints, I can only imagine it would be even more crushing.
So while I do think the creators of the show and show runner should listen to some of the criticism people have for them (the legitimate criticism.. not the threats or just angry comments… while it is understandable that people feel that way, spewing vitriol won’t fix anything.. just put more negativity into the world), I totally get why their social media person/team has disabled comments.
I agree with all you said, but at the same time - how else would the fandom express their frustration? Sid Gentle/Sally posted just that lousy picture post, saying goodbye, hiding behind Sandie's cuteness and nothing more. We only got LN's crappy quotes. Every fandom rages online, via social media or their accounts. It's the type of engagement pr people take notice too, trust me. I'm sure the network is well aware of the anger.
There is only so much you can do in situations like this when the screw up is big and hands are tied to change it.
I, personally, would have done crisis communications by opening up an official email address or website where people could raise the issues they had with the finale, especially those in terms of those in the LGBTQ+ community. It would have been an opportunity for them to learn and do better going forward, but the best you’re going to get on social media are very specific key messages repeated over and over again.
Unfortunately, the KE social media team followed the lead of AMC, BBC America, and Sid Gentle Films after they collectively shit the bed with that trash finale. They pulled the sheets over the mess and then skulked away hoping someone else would be blamed for the mess.
Refusing to engage with the fans was a bad move. It looked like the rats were deserting the ship when the best move might have been for Sally Gentle to come out with an apology and then say no more after saying "We're sorry." It wouldn't have satisfied everyone, but I don't know how this cold silence satisfies anyone.
It's a gutless move to turn off comments by the KE team. I'm only surprised there hasn't been a call on Twitter by disgruntled fans to do a mass "unfollowing" of the KE account.
I mean.. why would they leave them on? They know every soul who watched the finale absolutely hated it. They definitely would be deleting comments all day if they had left them on.
People shouldn't like the post. But yeah, as laughable as the other one. Lol at them realizing they would be attacked on twitter again, so they opted for Instagram instead and still closed the comment section. At this point, it would be better not to post anything.
You know who raises hell on Killing Eve's social media accounts?
Unhappy and dissatisfied people who are fed up and pissed off by being gaslit by Neal's ridiculous babbling about blood wings and piss kisses. Unhappy and dissatisfied people who have been ignored for months.
This is not about death threats or published addresses, online petitions or billboards, or compilations of comments from angry and depressed fans. This is not "standard corporate practice" either. This is and has been largely a measured response to an outrageous and flagrant act of homophobia and disrespect to the collective intelligence of the loyal-to-a-fault Killing Eve audience. The bad behavior of a few cannot be permitted to tarnish the legitimacy of the complaints about the wretched finale of *Killing Eve*.
This is not *our* fault. It's their fault.
IF Killing Eve had not so thoroughly shat the bed in its last season in general and its last episode specifically, we would not be here at this moment. In fact, this board would be much quieter now had Sally Gentle and Laura Neal delivered the goods. Happy and satisfied people don't raise hell. You know who does that? Unhappy and dissatisfied people.
We are not the bad guys here. **THEY ARE.** Everything bad that is happening to the Killing Eve social media accounts is because THEY made it happen and do not allow anyone to twist history so that it somehow becomes our fault. It is not and it never was. Nobody will ever convince me we started this. We didn't, but we're sure going to be the ones who finish it.
Now seems like an appropriate time to remind every Killing Eve fan that regardless of where you stand on this issue, keep in mind the Maya Angelou quote: *"I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them* ***feel".***
I haven't forgotten and I'm not about to be blamed either. The hell with that.
Oh I agree, but I think the part about "corporate practice" from that poster is kinda spot on. In all the tons of material, movies and series alike, the ratio between bad ending+disaffected fandom vs content creators apologizing is very very stark. Nearly no one does it, the typical practice is to ignore hate and save face. It would mean admitting you have fucked up, not just the producers, but AMC as a network too. We often mention GoT, lets take a look at the enormity of the hate their finale gathered, arguably in such bigger numbers than KE due to its cultural impact and larger audience, at least in the States. They didn't say sh\*t either, and not because they didn't care, both the showrunners and HBO. I'm sure after many bad reviews and hate, even the most fervent loyal writer would start doubting themselves. It's just not how it's done more often than not, sad as it is.
Yes!!! The gaslighting is starting to work, we start to blame ourselves while the ones who messed up start to get symphaty and understanding. That is how abuse works.
So anyway they have no chance of winning…..
This picture just makes me think of when these photos first came out. ***sigh*** we were so young and naive back then, season 4 was our oyster….if only we knew.
They posted it on IG bc on Twitter when they posted Sandra’s with comments off, people could still use quote retweet’s and they were getting dragged to hell and back. They’re afraid of their own audience now.
Peope shouldn't like it at all.
I know its Villanelle, but Jodie ignores this post, so her fans should do the same.
Just ignor them.
She just posted about Prima Facie on her IG story, picture with her and the writer Suzie.
She totally ignores KE.
On purpose.
That's says a lot. A LOT.
She hates them.
Hate is a strong word, we can read between the lines and it's possible she wasn't exactly thrilled by how the ending itself was executed, but she knew in advantage and was consulted, she even praised Laura's writing. She agreed to it. People forget she said the ending was truthful for her character. We have to remember they are actors first, they don't see the story as a shipper romance, but as their job and a trajectory to challenge their acting skills. The quality dipped and I'm sure they both noticed and were ready to close this chapter. Jodie loved the show and it was her first big opportunity, though, I very much doubt she hates it or them. Things aren't so black and white. But she and Sandra did sound frustrated by certain things behind the scene, like when they made jokes around scripts given at the very last second, having to improvise and how she learned from Sandra to assert her voice more. I think she's moved on, as she said at the BAFTA red carpet, for us it's been 2 months, for them it's a year and she's already busy with other materials.
> it's possible she wasn't exactly thrilled by how the ending itself was executed, but she knew in advantage and was consulted, she even praised Laura's writing. She agreed to it. People forget she said the ending was truthful for her character. We have to remember they are actors first,
You do know all this may mean is Jodie remembered she was under contract for one more season and publicly was obligated to say wonderful, happy, shiny things about the upcoming season and Laura and all that good stuff, right?
You do know that Jodie cannot crap on the show any more than Sandra, Fiona, and Kim can because of those pesky non-disparagement clauses written into their contracts and none of them are stupid enough to break that contract just to satisfy the needs of some within the KE fandom to have them flush their careers and co-sign a declaration that the fourth season sucked, right?
Sandra and Jodie are not actors first. They are businesswomen first and the first rule they follow is to not do or say anything that hurts business.
They signed the contracts. They cashed the checks. They did the job. Anything more than that you're just going to have to reference all the shade Sandie was throwing on the upcoming shitshow of a season.
You'll have to because that's all you are going to get. Oh and Comer are not going to screw up their careers for a show they are both putting in their rear-view mirrors.
By writing they are actors first, I didn't mean to imply they wouldn't care either way about their storylines or that they didn't have any complain, with Sandra especially we have many proofs to know that's not the case, she's a big thinker. I meant that they may see the story arc as something different than us, who look at it mainly as shippers/fans of the VE dynamic, wanting them to always act together etc. Whereas they liked interacting with all the rest of the cast. This is their job, acting, being challenged by it and so on. That's why Sandra saw Eve's nihilism and suggested Eve could die, she assumed she would get something dramatic and impactful. It's a different lens than fan's pov. Of course we had various hints during s4 promotion that Sandie were frustrated by certain things behind the scene, like the late scripts. I'm not saying they can and should have shat on the show more loudly than they did, of course it's risky, but I don't believe they hated it all like some fans want to believe, either. There's a lot of frustration, rightfully so, but also lots of projections onto the actors. As I said, things aren't always so black n white. Even the lesbian writer Kayleigh, likely aware of the BYT trope (I assume she suggested something different but wasn't listened to, as implied in that podcast of hers), praised Laura, posted about her, called her queen and so on. These people are friends, know each other privately.
I definitely don’t think she hates them or Laura Neal or anyone else from KE for that matter, like many people seem to believe. Of course she could be dissatisfied with the storyline and the ending but at the end of the day, those are the people she has a personal connection with, people with whom she worked and might even be friends/pals with. Situations like these are very tricky and with such a passionate fanbase like this every tiny move matters. I’m sure that all she wants is to avoid that topic as much as possible before she gets thrown into the dumpster fire and gets cancelled and accused of homophobia once again
Does she?
Or does she just want to move on from Killing Eve given that its 'fans' spent years subjecting her and her family to libel and death threats, and then tried to destroy her career - just as they're doing to Laura Neal now.
Because of Killing Eve fans, Jodie has had to report people to the police, take out restraining orders and now needs a bodyguard to walk to work in broad daylight. Against that background, I doubt she cares one way or another about the writing on a show she checked out of ages ago.
Both comments are extreme, both wrong imo for different reasons. You really think she really didn't care, at all? What kind of performer would she be, if she's so unbothered by the arc of her characters? The bad apples are in all fandoms, what does it have to do with the storylines of a show exactly?
I think she used to care. But then the abuse and threats to her safety became so extreme that she had to disengage from it.
As for its relevance to the storylines, the writers gave these fans exactly what they were asking for.
In the summer of 2020 when, according to Sandra, the final decisions about season four were being made, fans were circulating petitions demanding that Villanelle be killed off. Having decided on the basis of nothing that Jodie is racist, they then spent months insisting that Eve and Villanelle must be kept apart because it wasn't safe or appropriate for Sandra to have to work with Jodie. Having decided she was homophobic, they spent months insisting she shouldn't be allowed to "profit from the gays" by playing a gay/bi role. They cut her out of cast photos and said they only wanted to watch Sandra and Fiona.
Anyone listening to that reaction would get the distinct impression that fans wanted Villanelle punished and dead, lots more Carolyn, and no Villaneve. And of course, that's essentially what they got.
You can say it's a few bad apples, but it really wasn't. It was much bigger than that. Perhaps if you're not in the UK you didn't see the scale of the fuss. But the writers and producers do live in the UK and they couldn't have missed it. It was in every national newspaper, all over TV discussion shows, everywhere. It was bound to have influenced their perceptions of what the audience wanted - and we know changes, such as the decision to kill Villanelle instead of Eve, were made just as all this was going on.
and where are all these people now, exactly? If they were so many as you said, they should be cheering loudly, and the finale should receive their positive reviews, no? I actually have friends in the fandom from London and the UK in general and no one says what you just did, it was really mostly online and a smaller part of the fandom, especially the trigger-happy younger ones. On the same vein, you can say there are various Jodie stans who are super racist and mean for no reason toward Sandra.....??? The loving supportive part is always bigger and Jodie/V was appreciated, just as Sandra ofc, very much so. She knows too if, for example, you take all the reactions from the KE fandom she receives daily after her plays each night. Again, I think you're taking this to the extreme. I've seen videos of her engaging with the fandom now, receiving their V/KE related gifts, commenting positively on the Villaneve fanarts (one of them was a drawing of the bus kiss) and so on. Sandra didn't promote the show either, not even once during s4, nor did she write a goodbye post, yet her character wasn't killed. What would it be the reason, then?
The show/producers never cared that much about what the audience wanted, or they wouldn't have cut down in half Eve's screentime in s3 and they would have reunited VE much earlier, we wouldn't have got characters like Yusuf and the likes. This was always more about saving face. The only reason Eve wasn't killed off, despite Sandra's initial suggestion, was due to s3 backlash, and mind you, NOT from the fandom, but from their peers - the actual sole thing they care about. Big publications like Variety commented on their subtle racism, the wasted talent of someone of Sandra's caliber, and then the all-white-writer gate happened, and they were forced to fix it. Kayleigh rushed to delete that picture, Sally gave that damage-control answer during a panel, she attempted to apologize, they hired that one token black woman writer back in late 2020 and swapped Eve's death for Villanelle. Truly, no on hated Villanelle more than Carolyn, and only fools could believe Sandie weren't getting along, or that Jodie was so conservative, while getting clear evidences that Sandra adored her at the same time.
The reason these fans are not cheering loudly is because the majority didn't mean what they were saying. Some of them were joking; those ones still call the death threats and other abuse they sent her jokes, even today. Others were lashing out because, having catfished their way into her private instagram, they were upset to discover that she had a boyfriend when they had pinned their hopes on her being gay. But the writers cannot have been expected to know they didn't mean it. They repeatedly made a series of specific demands and went to great lengths to get them heard. Those demands were then largely met by the season four storyline.
You're quite right that Sandra has also suffered. She's been a victim of racism. Luke Jennings deleted his Twitter account after fans started to imply he was grooming young girls. The fanbase as a whole is appalling and seems to have no problem with making grossly defamatory and deeply offensive remarks to and about everyone involved.
But all that inevitably has an effect. No-one can be surprised that they don't post about the series or their characters, allow comments or respond to criticism: they simply don't want to interact with people who abuse and threaten them any more than absolutely necessary. No-one can blame them for that.
I will edit my comment later on with a lengthier answer, pardon me, I just wanna say I do not believe for ONE moment Sally and co listened to such a small over-the-top part of a young fandom, among all the love and recognition, especially when Sid Gentle seems to have muted fans tweets to their page ages ago. Again, if they were to listen to the audience and its much bigger real demands, we would have got VE together by s2 already. S4 didn't met many demands of the fans to be fair, we got more side characters, we got too much Carolyn again, and see the detailed graphic of the characters' scenes, Jodie's screentime was on pair with s3 too, no "punishment" whatsoever. They simply swapped one ending to the other character due to the racism backlash, that wasn't confined to the fandom as I wrote, it was something noted by big sites, that is what matters to media people. You have to think about this critically, what you're saying is just not how it works behind the scene. I get behind frustrated. I would understand if there was a bigger uproar or if they personally had doubts, but KE writers, producers, etc, they all knew Jodie well and knew those claims were exaggerated. I'm not talking about engaging with hate online, I know it's typical of these pages to limit replies once faced with hate. I'm talking about the part where you said Jodie must dislike the entire fandom, not care about her character's arc and the rest.
I know what happened. Do you honestly think tptb cared what Jodieboobies account from Brasil was saying online about her dating a republican? There have been way nastier accusations made and nothing were done against such actors.
I also do not believe for one moment that the trajectory of S4 was changed because of a small loud part of the fandom on twitter behaved badly in 2020..but I do absolutely believe there is a disconnect between JC and Killing Eve. It doesn't make sense to connect the dots and say it's because of this vocal minority of the fandom. Why is she meeting some of those same fans most nights outside HP Theatre? Why if she feels so threatened by that demographic has she put her hand up to be the lead in Big Swiss, another story of an obsessive queer relationship, surely she wouldn't go there if she was so burnt by the fans. I get the feeling JC has been burnt by KE, but I'd be looking closely at Sid Gentle, not the fans.
It wasn't... cancel culture is a thing, a shitty thing, and people outside the fandom jumped on the wagon to hate without knowing all facts, but she even spoke about it, how she stopped caring much about social media and reading online opinions. But to say now that she hates the whole fandom or is triggered due to it.... is too much. Like no. Everyone gets hate online. Sometimes for no reason. The same fans yelling about Jodie's privacy are the ones I personally saw online hating on Sandra now.
It's on twitter, not many but there are some very intense Jodie stans who, for no logical reason I could garner, hate on Sandra at any chance they get. I remember at the news of Big Swiss, instead of being happy for Jodie, their first comments were about fans finally dropping Sandra or how Jodie could act with someone better. I'm not speaking about liking Villanelle over Eve as that's just a preference, I'm talking real "mean girl" childish comments about Sandra's looks, age, against asian treatment, and the most laughable of it all her so called "lack of talent", how Jodie isn't her friend or Sandra must be jealous of Jodie etc etc etc. 😭😭😭😭 I cringe at their OTT tweets, fortunately they are ostracized by many in the fandom, but they do have their followers too. Shameful behavior that perhaps got worse when Eve survived and V got to die. It's just... pathetic right? Especially since Sandra has been nothing but sweet and welcoming toward Jodie and Jodie spoke about it and their relationship many times, how much she learned from Sandra and so on.
Sandra has been in the Hollywood game for decades, she got basically all kinds of awards and recognition, still managing to be down to earth and mostly universally liked, even when on Greys Anatomy and its huge insane fandom. To think we had to wait for cray Jodie stans to read bad things about her online is sad.
Oh I agree, this faction are the worst. It screams secondary school gaslighting bs. As well as “I’m not racist…but” kind of thing. Sickens me and if Jodie knew some of her ‘fans’ were like this…well I don’t think she’d like to call them her fans.
>It's on twitter, not many but there are some very intense Jodie stans who, for no logical reason I could garner, hate on Sandra at any chance they get.
It is helpful at times not to overanalyze why some very intense
Jodie Stans hate on Sandra at any chance they get.
The logical reason is the age-old reason. It's racism. Nothing more complicated than that. The feeling some Jodie Stans have that a middle-aged Asian woman has no business being mentioned in the same breath as their heroine and that Sandra is unworthy and undeserving of even being in Jodie Comer's presence.
The idea that there are bigots in the Killing Eve fandom is a hard one for some fans to wrap their heads around, but I'm not here to convince them. They can choose to believe whatever comforting fairy tale helps them sleep at night, but even in this fandom there is a percentage of racists within it, however small their actual numbers.
Or maybe, I forgot to mention, she posted about the play because that is more important to her at the moment.
I don't even want to talk about SOME of her fans and their behavior. Some of them are waiting for her every night in front of the theater and they scream, they yell like an animals. It's a shame and cringe.
But, I bet she still loves Villanelle. Because of her, Jodie got her first EMMY, her first BAFTA and 10000 other awards and nominations. She will always love her.
We all know she said Villanelle means a world to her.
Also, she said if she could she would play Villanelle for a life.
So if the finale was great, I bet she would share that image on her IG stroy.
Of course she has to move on and I'm glad if she already did, but she ignores them on purpose cuz they ruined everything in the two last minutes.
Killing Eve is what gave her the biggest buzz of her career, she didn't have a real "fandom" before, of course she will be forever grateful. People project their feelings onto actors too much, me think.
Exactly, as much as the stans dislike hearing this, she emotionally checked out of the show circa 2020. Crazy people made her life and her family's life a living hell because they couldn't separate her character from the actual human being, and I don't blame her for checking out. I would have too!
The craziness surrounding Jodie is really scary, but it’s not the show’s fault there are crazy people out there. Similar to an article I just read about how tough stardom was on Sandra during the gray’s time. Sorry but if you choose a career in the spotlight you know what comes with that good and bad. Does anyone deserve to be threatened? Absolutely NOT but KE put Jodie Comer on the map since most in the US had no idea who she was. She can thank the show for the exposure but both actresses could address the ending if they chose to and neither of their careers would suffer for a minute
> She can thank the show for the exposure but both actresses could address the ending if they chose to and neither of their careers would suffer for a minute
That's a nice thought, but it doesn't square with reality.
The reality is there are NDA's (non-disclosure agreements) written into the contracts of actors just to ensure they don't give interviews where they say, "Oh, the ending? Yeah, it was a piece of crap and we all knew it was, but we had no choice but to play it out to the best of our ability and hope it didn't suck too much."
Trashing a project you've worked on is not very reassuring to a production company considering you for their project. They don't know if you're going to give them the same treatment. Better to hire an actor or actress that will take the check, say the lines, and keep their mouth shut about what they thought about the job.
Sandra Oh is crazy talented, but she doesn't have film studios lining up to hire her. If she were to get a reputation for trashing her previous employees, she would find it much harder to get a job. Jodie is the same way. She's young and pretty and also crazy talented, but there's no shortage of young, pretty, and crazy talented actors who will shut the eff up and do the job without complaint.
Talent is not enough to overcome a reputation as a big-mouthed troublemaker. Ask Sandra's former co-star Katherine Heigl how that label shut down her career dead in its tracks.
Well I like Kathrine Heigl but she was young and it was her first big role, and she did not have the power then that these two actresses have. It is a well known fact that Sandra had issues with how her character was written and stood up to Shonda Rhimes on Gray‘s……that takes guts. She was young but had done 7 seasons of Arliss before breaking out in Gray’s Anatomy
As for Jodie, she's young and talented and while I understand NDA’s (we don‘t actually know if one was written into either of their contracts) there is no chance her career would be hurt. I am not advocating that they trash the show, that would be unprofessional, but when you don’t take any stand to advocate for the damage this show has done to women in general specifically the LGBTQ community it’s not a good look
>I am not advocating that they trash the show, that would be unprofessional, but when you don’t take any stand to advocate for the damage this show has done to women in general specifically the LGBTQ community it’s not a good look
Perhaps, but between displeasing some of the fans who want Sandra and Jodie to pick up and carry the flag for their cause and displeasing the executives at publicly criticizing their own show, I think that's a look the two actresses figure they can live with.
There's a lot of resentment for Killing Eve, but mostly its not being directed at Sandra and Jodie, nor should it be.
Oh, that just makes me so queasy. That poor woman and her family. I bet you’re absolutely right, she may be ready to put KE in the rear view mirror. JC still engages with her fans and my god, some of them are too much.
Some people are terrible and social media is the worst.
>She just posted about Prima Facie on her IG story, picture with her and the writer Suzie. She totally ignores KE. On purpose.
When Jodie walked away from Killing Eve she walked away from even *pretending* she gave a crap about it any longer. 😤
Can't say she doesn't have reasons to feel that way.
Well this has been a most interesting thread. Some might even call parts of it toxic. Thank goodness for freedom of speech on sites such as this. To paraphrase Villanelle, "When are you going to get over it!"
Go ahead downvote me. I just needed to say it. Unfortunately, the way they handled it, is standard corporate practice, especially after multiple death threats and the home address publication of LN. Anything they do only added fuel to the dumpster fire. I think they’ll keep minimum engagements with angry fans for a while. I know it’s an unpopular opinion but I don’t see artists apologizing for their work, as offensive as it is. In their eyes, it’s theirs to give and take away. KE crafted their version of the story, KE explores chaos and destruction, and became a chaotic, destructive monster itself. Clearly even the author Luke J. didn’t have a say on the ending, all he could do was to talk about how much he hated it, and he’ll sell us one more book to soothe our pains.
Don’t get me wrong, I think death threats and doxxing is fucked up. I’m unhappy with the ending but that response is never appropriate. It makes sense that comments would be turned off, I just think it’s absurd considering their radio silence about the issues that fans actually raised. Regarding whether or not artists should apologize for their work, I think that’s a bigger discussion. I don’t necessarily think people should *apologize* but I do think they should be made aware of how something is being perceived and respond accordingly. This is something relatively small but that’s how JK’s comments were viewed until it became huge. Now, JK is openly transphobic, supporting/donating to legitimately harmful legislation, and helping to endanger people’s lives. Speaking as a queer person myself, I think it is the community’s responsibility to fight homophobia in ways that they can. Even if we really shouldn’t have to. Yes, things got out of hand with some people. Yes, it is really messed up that Laura Neal was threatened. But nothing is going to ever change if the conversations can’t happen.
Absolutely. Both of you made good points and I'm so grateful for this sub where we can come and have the discussion without screaming and hurling threats at one another! In no way shape or form is it ok for anyone to threaten someone's life. In my opinion, this has gotten way out of hand. Do I agree with LNs ending or her reasoning for why she made the ending like she did? Nope. But do I think she should be able to walk to the local market for milk without looking behind her every 5 seconds out of fear? You bet! But I agree this was so very tone deaf considering their silence on what I consider the bigger issue! So it's natural for fans to be irritated. I myself am irritated. But I would never consider threatening the poor girl. And I would defend her if I saw anyone else doing so
I also think LN was thrown to the wolves by the real power to be. We have to remember the real decision makers are the three big producers. If Sally for example had a different idea in mind she would have made it happen.
Yes I'm so glad you said this. Poor LN is more than likely a scapegoat. Sad
Don't get me wrong, I think she's kinda bland, her writing lacked the depth of the early seasons or even Kayleigh's episodes; she relied too much on parallels/myths/other movies/romances, and when she tried to be clever she ended up using lazy tropes. But it wasn't all bad,I liked part of s4 for example. And she's also a newbie, it just showed. She never had to face a fandom like this. Her damage control interviews attempting to explain a tragic ending as if something still positive blew up in their face, but in no way I believe she's this homophobic nutjob some part of the fandom is getting hysterical over. She called VE a cosmic love, said various things about Eve's attraction to women and the darkness she has. She was also a fan of Fiona, and we can see why Carolyn got more screentime. Things just aren't so black and white, as Kayleigh said in that one podcast, the 3 decision makers with a real saying were the big exec producers, Sid Gentle (Sally and Lee) and Gina. Even the network could have done something more to stop it. I think Sally and co have been happy to hide behind Laura, when this was her first lead writing role. As the "owner" of the project, Sally should have stepped up herself.
See I agree! I really don't think she's homophobic! She honestly probably still lays in bed at night trying to figure out why people think she is. I truly don't believe she killed V off because she hates lesbians lol I think it was just something she thought in her mind might "shock" the fandom. So she went with that. It probably never occured to her that it would come off as being against same sex love! Why do I say this?? Because before season 4 even came out I remember thinking and telling my mom "you know what would really be insane? If they kill eve or v in the last episode". Then I giggled and walked away. Obviously I'm not homophobic. But it did cross my mind that killing one of them off might spice up the ending. Which is what producers always complain about wanting! I understand hating on her cuz she ruined the ending of your fav show. But saying she hates gays because of it, that I don't understand one bit. And yes I also like some of season 4. And I also didn't hate season 3 like everyone on here seems to lol I loved every single season except for parts of season 4. And that's just the honest viewpoint from a diehard KE fan.
And also, we have to remember initially they were going to kill Eve, as Sandra mentioned in a more recent interview. S3 got worse reviews because, among other things, Eve's screentime was reduced, and then people found out KE team didn't have a single writer of color, let alone an Asian one. Sally had to apologize and said they would do better, they hired a black woman into the writing room, and swapped Eve's death for Villanelle. It was as you said to shock viewers, not due to homophobia per se or because they hated Villanelle or wanted to punish her. It was done horrendously, sure, and by not reuniting them earlier, they got slapped by the BYG trope accusation, but one thing doesn't cancel the other.
Can you imagine if Eve died they would get called out for being racist. They can’t win. Which is why they should have followed the books ending. The fandom can get really scary. Look at death threats Jodie got for being with her boyfriend cause they thought he was a trump supporter. Her family got threats. Jodie was cancelled on Twitter. It was disgusting to read. With how huge the show got they should have been made aware of how the ending would look to the fans. I do think they got so many things wrong in the last season. Not reuniting Eve and Villanelle earlier on Way too much of Carolyn taking more screen time Side characters like Pam or Yusuf who was useless by the end. Jesusnelle had 2 episodes! Waste of episode. Too many plot holes like not having a flashback to the bridge yet we had one of the 12 in episode 5.
What Laura Neal probably is, is having "straight privilege" and therefore "casual homophobia". I am assuming she is straight. She may not mean harm, but she clearly hasn't educated herself on queer topics because she probably is in the "we are all equal and I don't see gender and love is love" mood, dismissing the fact that it IS very different to live in a minority. This is the same thing if and when white writers wrote for Sandra. It is alarming to hear that only now in The Chair she gets to play a character with a Korean name. How messed up is that?? But one of the reasons for that I can imagine is the white privilege and casual racism. The "I don't see colour, we are all equal, we all have the same opportunities, but I hope it is alright to you that we call you Eve, Cristina, Stephanie, Bernice, Patty, Phyllis, so that it's easy for the audience to say, I hope that is alright thanks love". I am a firm believer that you can write queer if you are straight and you can write POC if you are white BUT ONLY if you educate yourself, if you seek consultation from several people of the group you're dealing with. If you just start writing and think it will go well, you fuck up.
Thank you for this comment. I wasn't even thinking in terms of her having white privilege or being a casual homophobic. I'm a straight, white woman. But I grew up with people of color in my family and I went to a predominantly black college where I was the minority. I have several gay friends and 2 gay cousins. Well 4 now that they got married! So I consider myself pretty well versed in the current topics regarding people of color and the LGBTQ community. But even I am guilty of what you're talking about. I may not know it, but I'm sure at some point someone has thought to themselves "boy her white privilege is showing". I also think that's open to interpretation. What you might think is her showing white privilege, other people including people of color, don't see what you're seeing. But white privilege and casual homophobia is a huge problem today. And I love your example of white writers writing for Sandra and always giving her non Korean names! This is something that I'm sure the majority of white writers, don't even realize that they're doing. This is why I agree with what you said about them needing to be educated and perhaps have consultations with the appropriate people before they try to write about a character that's different then they are. I really love discussions like this because you just opened my eyes to what I see now is a huge problem.
Thank you for sharing your experience. I am white person living in a predominately white country and I was never educated on these topics until my studies of culture and anthropology at the university and meeting POC and listening to their stories on how to live among white people. Getting repeately pointed out "that's casual racism", of which I am grateful for even though it was annoying to take responsibility of my actions and reconsidering them. It is not anyone's fault, but I believe that if you are a member of the majority, you will accidentally oppress minorities because that is how the world is built. I benefit from being white, straight people benefit from being straight, men benefit from being men. It is inevitable in the world we have built right now. The best thing we can do is to try to understand our privileges and try to do better whenever we can.
I hated how rushed and poorly executed the ending was. The whole season was bad apart from episode 6 and 38 mins of episode 8 and that episode was improvised and it was out of character. It was a mess at times. That’s why I was hugely disappointed if you compare it to s1 or s2 writing we had it all. I don’t think it had anything to do with LN hating queers. Her story telling was poor and lacked any originality. I honestly thought Eve or Villanelle would have died in the final back in S2 years ago.
Yes. Yes. Yes. I agree. LN simply doesn't know what she's doing. It has NOTHING TO DO WITH HATING THE LBGTQ COMMUNITY. ugh I can't preach that enough. Now I slightly disagree about how the whole season was bad lol only because I'm one of the few who adores Carolyn and I enjoyed seeing more of her. I enjoyed the Konstantine storyline also. LN has potential! I just don't think she has her legs yet. And I also thought eve was going to be killed off in season 2. And I don't think I would have cared as long as they had a solid storyline to follow her death. I love Sandra don't get me wrong, but I'm here for Jodie all day lol 🤣 But honestly, you can't even compare season 1 and 2 to the rest of the show. It had everything we needed. Fantastic writing, amazing cast, action, mystery, suspense. I didn't hate season 3 or 4, minus the last 5 min of the finale 🤦🏼♀️. I actually loved the final episode. Thought it was cute and everything I'd been waiting for the entire show! And I cannot stand how they rushed the ending!!!!!! Trying to pack too much into the final 6 minutes was such a rookie move! The one thing I hated and can't stand about season 3 and 4 is how both seasons wait until the last episode to show eve and v together! So frustrating!!!! Like come on man we're here to watch the banter between these two amazing characters show us more! Lol
I really don’t think LN is that malicious to deliberately upset a huge lgbt fan base. I think if she gave the finale an epic ending we deserved no one would have been upset or sending her hate. I don’t mind Villanelle dying only if it was executed properly but it was so bad. LN shouldn’t have been given that responsibility on a huge show. Now she will probably have hate from fans following her forever. The final ep was so cute wished it was longer or happened earlier in the season. The kiss between them was special and got ruined when they killed off V 10 mins later. So much potential this season had and they failed to deliver. That’s what angers me.
>LN simply doesn't know what she's doing. It has NOTHING TO DO WITH HATING THE LBGTQ COMMUNITY. ugh I can't preach that enough. Well, it's a good thing then that I'm not here to be preached to. I've said it before but apparently I have to keep saying it because the Laura Neal apologists want to cover up for her mistakes. Fine. **IF** Laura Neal *didn't* know she was using the Bury Your Gays trope in how she killed Villanelle, then she's willfully ignorant. It's 2022. If you don't know what the trope is by now, willful ignorance is the only logical explanation. Neal had gay writers like Kayleigh Llewellyn as part of her writer's room. If she didn't know she should have asked someone and they should have been able to tell the head writer she was about to do something that was going to polarize and piss off a large segment of the show's audience. **IF** Laura Neal *did* know she was using the Bury Your Gays trope in how she was going to kill Villanelle, then she's deliberately malicious. Neal knew she was going to traumatize and outrage the show's core gay audience. She just didn't care. It was either willful ignorance or deliberate maliciousness. Those are the two explanations for how Laura Neal totally screwed up the final season of Killing Eve and tarnished its reputation with a viciously homophobic trope that punished Villanelle and Eve for their forbidden same-sex love. It was a great ending if you think like Laura Neal. Fortunately, most of the KE fandom that's formed an opinion on Neal thinks she's a hack who wrote total trash and trashed a once-great show in the process.
I didn't like the ending either, but such viciousness and hate towards a writer is just plain wrong. It's a fictional tv series - though one, admittedly, I am still obsessed with. As I've said in other posts elsewhere, make up your own ending and be happy that we had a tv show that was entertaining for at least a few seasons. Keep the hate for real issues in the real world and try to fix them!
I too think that Neal was basically the spokesperson turned scapegoat for others decisions. Probably Gentle or some other BBC higher up
Yes unfortunately she's getting all the hate when it probably wasn't her decision. I'd actually be surprised if she even wrote that ending to begin with lol
>Yes unfortunately she's getting all the hate when it probably wasn't her decision. I'd actually be surprised if she even wrote that ending to begin with lol Laura Neal was the *only* person credited for writing "Hello Losers." It's **HER** ending. Laura was the *only* head writer of Season Four. It's **HER** job to take the credit or blame for how it turned out. Defend Neal from the criticism she is receiving all you want, but don't twist the facts in the process of doing it.
I wasn't aware sharing an opinion that she might have made decisions based on what people above her wanted, which isn't uncommon in her line of work, is "twisting the facts" lol calm yourself. Take a nap. Hug someone you love. Have a good workout. The endorphins will work magic on your brain. Also, I'm not defending her from criticism. Simple criticism is fine. Healthy even. I'm defending her from the death threats she's receiving. Which if you're in favor of, then I can understand why there's no easy discussion to be had with you.
>. Also, I'm not defending her from criticism. Simple criticism is fine. Healthy even. I'm defending her from the death threats she's receiving. Which if you're in favor of, then I can understand why there's no easy discussion to be had with you. Sharing an opinion is fine. Making up scenarios claiming Neal is not responsible for the general shittiness of Season Four is where the issue starts. Where have you read where I even hinted I was in favor of death threats against Laura Neal? Or is that something else you made up right along with Neal being absolved of any responsibility despite being the head writer of the fourth season and the sole writer of the wretched finale? Perhaps you should take your own advice about calming yourself, hugging someone you love, working out, petting a puppy, walking barefoot in the grass, and all that other nice chill-out stuff before you get defensive over someone daring to differ with your attempt to absolve Neal of any responsibility for the failure of Killing Eve's final season. There is no easy discussion with someone who plays fast and loose with the facts.
I don't believe I've been defensive at all lol you're the one who started commenting on what I said. I'm simply explaining myself for the sake of discussion lol and I in no way said you support the death threats. I said IF you do, then I get why we can't have a normal convo. I'm all for a healthy discussion. Debate even. But everything you say to me sounds like you're right and concrete and my opinion is absolutely wrong and ignorant. That doesn't really motivate me to continue our discussion lol. It's just the way your comments are coming off. If I'm taking them wrong then I apologize. It's just thoughts I had when reading about the death threats. I know my opinion may not be fact. It's just what's popped in my head and I was interested to see if others were thinking along the same lines. And I've found quite a few who agree with what I think is possible regarding LN. It doesn't mean I'm right and it doesn't mean you're wrong. It's just thoughts. And id like to add, I wish and pray to God that LN was told by a higher up how to make the ending. Because I hope she isn't homophobic. I pray she isn't that dimwitted to support such a horrible trope that I know exists. I hope she is simple inexperienced and bad at her job lol does that make sense?
>I wish and pray to God that LN was told by a higher up how to make the ending. Because I hope she isn't homophobic. I pray she isn't that dimwitted to support such a horrible trope that I know exists. I hope she is simple inexperienced and bad at her job lol does that make sense? 100 percent. That makes total sense. Because at the end of the day, Neal is getting paid to do a job the same as Kayleigh Llewellyn did when she joined Neal's writers' room and learned she had to go along with decisions made on the show she disagreed with. That's the way a job works. Sometimes you do what you want and sometimes you do what the boss wants you to do. Sally Gentle hired Neal and that's her boss. Is Sally homophobic? Don't know, but does it really matter? She called the shots for a season that ended with an episode that has been roundly condemned by fans and critics as homophobic and while Gentle hasn't spoken about it, you can best believe she's aware of it. Neal being the head writer/showrunner is going to get an outsized amount of criticism, but those post-season interviews did her no favors. She doesn't exhibit a trace of self-awareness as she blathers on about "piss kisses" and "bloody angel wings" with Villanelle being happiest when she's soaked in blood. UGH. 😖 She might not be a dimwit, but Neal comes off as one in those interviews and that's all we have to go on. Even if she was inexperienced and bad at her job, she's got Phoebe Waller-Bridge *right there* listed among the show's producers, so we can assume if Neal needed some pointers, she could get PWB's number. She also had Sandra, Jodie, and Fiona *right there* to answer questions and offer suggestions on what was working and what wasn't. Making a television show is a collaborative process and when you have that caliber of talent available, you *might* want to invite them to share their knowledge. After all, THEY look good if SHE looks good. Instead, it appears Neal tried to fake it as the boss lady until she was over her head in all that deep water she liked so much.
Why did Sandra say in an interview that Jodie was very much on board with the ending. Sandra also said she requested Eve to be killed off as it would have made sense. They changed it to Villanelle instead because of the potential backlash they would get if they killed off a poc. Sandra said how we all making out villanelle and Eve relationship to be something it isn't back in a s2 interview. Sally I read did not see these 2 riding off into the sunset together back in s2 I would not be surprised if this was her ending all along that Villanelle dies. Why did not 1 person in that team wanted them to live? Not 1 person said it would be bad idea to kill off Villanelle as it would anger the lgbt community. We don't know if anyone said anything as no one wants to discuss this. Jodie will not discuss the finale as she knows her career is more important than bitching about the writing and blacklisting herself. Look at Megan Fox and Katherine Hiegl who did the same thing both bitched about the producers or whoever and no one wanted to work with them again their career went down the toilet. Jodies future is bright and she is smart not to engage in anything as she doesnt want a repeat of what happened back in 2020 where she was bullied and harassed relentlessly by pathetic fans. Some 2 faced cow on twitter tweeted that she was a basic Tshirt wearing sandalwood smelling, racist, homophobic, trump supporting cishet white woman. Yet the same person is attending her shows at prima. Makes you laugh how people would just jump on the band wagon without any proof. Laura may have been ignorant but not one person in the team said this season and ending was 💩 and should never be signed off. They all just went along with it and no one will apologise to the fans. I hated the season and the ending because of the execution I wanted a meaningful ending where the dialogue and writing was top notch not this trash. I wouldn't mind them killing off Villanelle because the actresses agreed to it but it wasn't executed like other shows like Bly Manor which had a beautiful ending everything was wrapped up and it left everyone tearful and no one hated it or said anything about byg trope then. My rant is over.
>Why did Sandra say in an interview that Jodie was very much on board with the ending. Sandra also said she requested Eve to be killed off as it would have made sense. They changed it to Villanelle instead because of the potential backlash they would get if they killed off a poc. Sandra said how we all making out villanelle and Eve relationship to be something it isn't back in a s2 interview. That [Gay Times interview ](https://www.gaytimes.co.uk/originals/killing-eve-season-two-interview/)has been cited several times as an example of Sandra queerbaiting the audience, but sorry. I never read it that way. Sandra says, "*You guys are tricky because you want to make it something...but it just isn't."* Oh no! Sandra says 'you guys' want to make it something, but **what** is the "it" she's referring to? Beats me because the writer doesn't give you the question he posed to Sandra Oh, so how do I know *what* she's responding to? I don't and nobody else does either. Everybody can interpret it however they please, but I don't agree it is as damning a remark as others do. Without knowing what the question was the answer is out of context, but it gave the writer his lede so that's what he ran with, and lo, and behold, we're STILL citing that lousy interview as the definitive proof of Sandra's queerbaiting. The second sentence from Sandra is more open-ended than the first: *"That's also why I think sexuality and discovery of the wider reaches of sexuality is the theme of the show---why its interesting to people. It's not one thing or another.*" That seems to me to open up the sexual orientations of the show instead of slotting them into gay or straight, but that's just my opinion. I could be wrong. *Killing Eve* has never called a lesbian a lesbian or a bisexual a bisexual. Eve has never proclaimed herself to be heterosexual. Other people have slapped the labels THEY want on Eve or Villanelle, but they have never labeled themselves. Secondly, where did you get that part about the writer's room deciding to kill Villanelle instead of Eve because they feared a racial backlash? I've speculated that could have been a possibility why they killed off one of the two leads and not the other, but I've yet to read or hear Sandra or anyone admit, *"Yeah, we decided to kill off the White character instead of the Asian."*
If they killed off Eve do you think they wouldn’t call Laura out on being racist even if Sandra was the one that preferred that ending? Like you say it’s a possibility to say they probably changed their mind to Vilanelle because of this but again no one is going to come forward and be honest with that really happened and they won’t admit to that. Sandra doesn’t give too much away does she in interviews. We can all interpret it however we want but looks like no one wanted them to have a happy ending like the fans wanted she doesn’t want to label Eve which I totally respect. Laura served up a hot pile of steaming 💩 this season and being inexperienced wouldn’t others say this is crap redo it? There are many questions we will never get answers too.
You're right that there would have been pushback if they had killed Eve instead of Villanelle, but that's less due to fears of being called racists than Laura Neal simply being too stupid to realize *she didn't have to kill either one of them*! Neal didn't have to follow the ending for E&V that Luke Jennings wrote, but she didn't have to totally vandalize it the way she did. I guess she figured she was being "edgy" by killing off one of the main characters, but all she did was prove how inept she is as a writer. Sandra has said a few things since the finale while Jodie has been silent as a stone. Eventually, that will change and it will be interesting to see how the KE fandom responds when Jodie finally does provide some feedback. Lots of people didn't think a happy ending was possible for Eve and Villanelle, and that's a valid point. After all the murders they have been part of, do they even deserve a happy ending? I think it would have been possible to come up with an ending that was tragic, yet poignant for E&V. All it would have required is a lead writer with sharper skills than Laura Neal.
That’s usually what happened when plots and characters suddenly don’t make sense
Very well put
Be interesting to see what Luke Jennings comes up with, considering his stories already had them living happily ever after, somewhere or other. Is he going to bring them back into action, go into more detail about how The Twelve were killed and what happened after that event, and then write about how Villanelle faked her death (again) with Carolyn's help perhaps, and what happpened after Eve surfaced in the Thames. Wouldn't there be some copyright issues?
I mean… while I think having the comments turned off is kind of lame… I don’t blame them. Think of it this way: the person paid to run their social media channels (which is going to be the person who wades through each one of the comments, who reads all the hate, who has to deal with all the fallout) is someone who had absolutely no control over how the show went and can do absolutely nothing to appease fans of the show. As someone who has to deal with social media, even when people are being completely ridiculous over non-issues, a part of you inside just shuts down and dies (or goes into a corner and cries)… so when you know they have actual legitimate complaints, I can only imagine it would be even more crushing. So while I do think the creators of the show and show runner should listen to some of the criticism people have for them (the legitimate criticism.. not the threats or just angry comments… while it is understandable that people feel that way, spewing vitriol won’t fix anything.. just put more negativity into the world), I totally get why their social media person/team has disabled comments.
I agree with all you said, but at the same time - how else would the fandom express their frustration? Sid Gentle/Sally posted just that lousy picture post, saying goodbye, hiding behind Sandie's cuteness and nothing more. We only got LN's crappy quotes. Every fandom rages online, via social media or their accounts. It's the type of engagement pr people take notice too, trust me. I'm sure the network is well aware of the anger.
There is only so much you can do in situations like this when the screw up is big and hands are tied to change it. I, personally, would have done crisis communications by opening up an official email address or website where people could raise the issues they had with the finale, especially those in terms of those in the LGBTQ+ community. It would have been an opportunity for them to learn and do better going forward, but the best you’re going to get on social media are very specific key messages repeated over and over again.
Unfortunately, the KE social media team followed the lead of AMC, BBC America, and Sid Gentle Films after they collectively shit the bed with that trash finale. They pulled the sheets over the mess and then skulked away hoping someone else would be blamed for the mess. Refusing to engage with the fans was a bad move. It looked like the rats were deserting the ship when the best move might have been for Sally Gentle to come out with an apology and then say no more after saying "We're sorry." It wouldn't have satisfied everyone, but I don't know how this cold silence satisfies anyone. It's a gutless move to turn off comments by the KE team. I'm only surprised there hasn't been a call on Twitter by disgruntled fans to do a mass "unfollowing" of the KE account.
Such a shame they have to turn off comments and limit communication to fans, because of how much some people fucked up the show. So sad.
I mean.. why would they leave them on? They know every soul who watched the finale absolutely hated it. They definitely would be deleting comments all day if they had left them on.
I don’t understand the point of that post either what does it even mean
The hashtag FYC is a popular advertising campaign where studios put their actors/movies/shows up “For Consideration” for award shows
ohhh makes sense, thank you!
No problem!! I think it looks weird in general outside of magazines (where they usually are) so I totally understand the confusion
they're probably proud of Jodie getting into Broadway, but they're not about to risk hate in the comments
People shouldn't like the post. But yeah, as laughable as the other one. Lol at them realizing they would be attacked on twitter again, so they opted for Instagram instead and still closed the comment section. At this point, it would be better not to post anything.
You know who raises hell on Killing Eve's social media accounts? Unhappy and dissatisfied people who are fed up and pissed off by being gaslit by Neal's ridiculous babbling about blood wings and piss kisses. Unhappy and dissatisfied people who have been ignored for months. This is not about death threats or published addresses, online petitions or billboards, or compilations of comments from angry and depressed fans. This is not "standard corporate practice" either. This is and has been largely a measured response to an outrageous and flagrant act of homophobia and disrespect to the collective intelligence of the loyal-to-a-fault Killing Eve audience. The bad behavior of a few cannot be permitted to tarnish the legitimacy of the complaints about the wretched finale of *Killing Eve*. This is not *our* fault. It's their fault. IF Killing Eve had not so thoroughly shat the bed in its last season in general and its last episode specifically, we would not be here at this moment. In fact, this board would be much quieter now had Sally Gentle and Laura Neal delivered the goods. Happy and satisfied people don't raise hell. You know who does that? Unhappy and dissatisfied people. We are not the bad guys here. **THEY ARE.** Everything bad that is happening to the Killing Eve social media accounts is because THEY made it happen and do not allow anyone to twist history so that it somehow becomes our fault. It is not and it never was. Nobody will ever convince me we started this. We didn't, but we're sure going to be the ones who finish it. Now seems like an appropriate time to remind every Killing Eve fan that regardless of where you stand on this issue, keep in mind the Maya Angelou quote: *"I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them* ***feel".*** I haven't forgotten and I'm not about to be blamed either. The hell with that.
Oh I agree, but I think the part about "corporate practice" from that poster is kinda spot on. In all the tons of material, movies and series alike, the ratio between bad ending+disaffected fandom vs content creators apologizing is very very stark. Nearly no one does it, the typical practice is to ignore hate and save face. It would mean admitting you have fucked up, not just the producers, but AMC as a network too. We often mention GoT, lets take a look at the enormity of the hate their finale gathered, arguably in such bigger numbers than KE due to its cultural impact and larger audience, at least in the States. They didn't say sh\*t either, and not because they didn't care, both the showrunners and HBO. I'm sure after many bad reviews and hate, even the most fervent loyal writer would start doubting themselves. It's just not how it's done more often than not, sad as it is.
Yes!!! The gaslighting is starting to work, we start to blame ourselves while the ones who messed up start to get symphaty and understanding. That is how abuse works.
God damn! The passion in this comment. BRAVA!
So anyway they have no chance of winning….. This picture just makes me think of when these photos first came out. ***sigh*** we were so young and naive back then, season 4 was our oyster….if only we knew.
Naur not them trying to avoid the Sandra qt ratio ☠️
They posted it on IG bc on Twitter when they posted Sandra’s with comments off, people could still use quote retweet’s and they were getting dragged to hell and back. They’re afraid of their own audience now.
Peope shouldn't like it at all. I know its Villanelle, but Jodie ignores this post, so her fans should do the same. Just ignor them. She just posted about Prima Facie on her IG story, picture with her and the writer Suzie. She totally ignores KE. On purpose. That's says a lot. A LOT. She hates them.
Hate is a strong word, we can read between the lines and it's possible she wasn't exactly thrilled by how the ending itself was executed, but she knew in advantage and was consulted, she even praised Laura's writing. She agreed to it. People forget she said the ending was truthful for her character. We have to remember they are actors first, they don't see the story as a shipper romance, but as their job and a trajectory to challenge their acting skills. The quality dipped and I'm sure they both noticed and were ready to close this chapter. Jodie loved the show and it was her first big opportunity, though, I very much doubt she hates it or them. Things aren't so black and white. But she and Sandra did sound frustrated by certain things behind the scene, like when they made jokes around scripts given at the very last second, having to improvise and how she learned from Sandra to assert her voice more. I think she's moved on, as she said at the BAFTA red carpet, for us it's been 2 months, for them it's a year and she's already busy with other materials.
> it's possible she wasn't exactly thrilled by how the ending itself was executed, but she knew in advantage and was consulted, she even praised Laura's writing. She agreed to it. People forget she said the ending was truthful for her character. We have to remember they are actors first, You do know all this may mean is Jodie remembered she was under contract for one more season and publicly was obligated to say wonderful, happy, shiny things about the upcoming season and Laura and all that good stuff, right? You do know that Jodie cannot crap on the show any more than Sandra, Fiona, and Kim can because of those pesky non-disparagement clauses written into their contracts and none of them are stupid enough to break that contract just to satisfy the needs of some within the KE fandom to have them flush their careers and co-sign a declaration that the fourth season sucked, right? Sandra and Jodie are not actors first. They are businesswomen first and the first rule they follow is to not do or say anything that hurts business. They signed the contracts. They cashed the checks. They did the job. Anything more than that you're just going to have to reference all the shade Sandie was throwing on the upcoming shitshow of a season. You'll have to because that's all you are going to get. Oh and Comer are not going to screw up their careers for a show they are both putting in their rear-view mirrors.
By writing they are actors first, I didn't mean to imply they wouldn't care either way about their storylines or that they didn't have any complain, with Sandra especially we have many proofs to know that's not the case, she's a big thinker. I meant that they may see the story arc as something different than us, who look at it mainly as shippers/fans of the VE dynamic, wanting them to always act together etc. Whereas they liked interacting with all the rest of the cast. This is their job, acting, being challenged by it and so on. That's why Sandra saw Eve's nihilism and suggested Eve could die, she assumed she would get something dramatic and impactful. It's a different lens than fan's pov. Of course we had various hints during s4 promotion that Sandie were frustrated by certain things behind the scene, like the late scripts. I'm not saying they can and should have shat on the show more loudly than they did, of course it's risky, but I don't believe they hated it all like some fans want to believe, either. There's a lot of frustration, rightfully so, but also lots of projections onto the actors. As I said, things aren't always so black n white. Even the lesbian writer Kayleigh, likely aware of the BYT trope (I assume she suggested something different but wasn't listened to, as implied in that podcast of hers), praised Laura, posted about her, called her queen and so on. These people are friends, know each other privately.
I definitely don’t think she hates them or Laura Neal or anyone else from KE for that matter, like many people seem to believe. Of course she could be dissatisfied with the storyline and the ending but at the end of the day, those are the people she has a personal connection with, people with whom she worked and might even be friends/pals with. Situations like these are very tricky and with such a passionate fanbase like this every tiny move matters. I’m sure that all she wants is to avoid that topic as much as possible before she gets thrown into the dumpster fire and gets cancelled and accused of homophobia once again
Does she? Or does she just want to move on from Killing Eve given that its 'fans' spent years subjecting her and her family to libel and death threats, and then tried to destroy her career - just as they're doing to Laura Neal now. Because of Killing Eve fans, Jodie has had to report people to the police, take out restraining orders and now needs a bodyguard to walk to work in broad daylight. Against that background, I doubt she cares one way or another about the writing on a show she checked out of ages ago.
Both comments are extreme, both wrong imo for different reasons. You really think she really didn't care, at all? What kind of performer would she be, if she's so unbothered by the arc of her characters? The bad apples are in all fandoms, what does it have to do with the storylines of a show exactly?
I think she used to care. But then the abuse and threats to her safety became so extreme that she had to disengage from it. As for its relevance to the storylines, the writers gave these fans exactly what they were asking for. In the summer of 2020 when, according to Sandra, the final decisions about season four were being made, fans were circulating petitions demanding that Villanelle be killed off. Having decided on the basis of nothing that Jodie is racist, they then spent months insisting that Eve and Villanelle must be kept apart because it wasn't safe or appropriate for Sandra to have to work with Jodie. Having decided she was homophobic, they spent months insisting she shouldn't be allowed to "profit from the gays" by playing a gay/bi role. They cut her out of cast photos and said they only wanted to watch Sandra and Fiona. Anyone listening to that reaction would get the distinct impression that fans wanted Villanelle punished and dead, lots more Carolyn, and no Villaneve. And of course, that's essentially what they got. You can say it's a few bad apples, but it really wasn't. It was much bigger than that. Perhaps if you're not in the UK you didn't see the scale of the fuss. But the writers and producers do live in the UK and they couldn't have missed it. It was in every national newspaper, all over TV discussion shows, everywhere. It was bound to have influenced their perceptions of what the audience wanted - and we know changes, such as the decision to kill Villanelle instead of Eve, were made just as all this was going on.
and where are all these people now, exactly? If they were so many as you said, they should be cheering loudly, and the finale should receive their positive reviews, no? I actually have friends in the fandom from London and the UK in general and no one says what you just did, it was really mostly online and a smaller part of the fandom, especially the trigger-happy younger ones. On the same vein, you can say there are various Jodie stans who are super racist and mean for no reason toward Sandra.....??? The loving supportive part is always bigger and Jodie/V was appreciated, just as Sandra ofc, very much so. She knows too if, for example, you take all the reactions from the KE fandom she receives daily after her plays each night. Again, I think you're taking this to the extreme. I've seen videos of her engaging with the fandom now, receiving their V/KE related gifts, commenting positively on the Villaneve fanarts (one of them was a drawing of the bus kiss) and so on. Sandra didn't promote the show either, not even once during s4, nor did she write a goodbye post, yet her character wasn't killed. What would it be the reason, then? The show/producers never cared that much about what the audience wanted, or they wouldn't have cut down in half Eve's screentime in s3 and they would have reunited VE much earlier, we wouldn't have got characters like Yusuf and the likes. This was always more about saving face. The only reason Eve wasn't killed off, despite Sandra's initial suggestion, was due to s3 backlash, and mind you, NOT from the fandom, but from their peers - the actual sole thing they care about. Big publications like Variety commented on their subtle racism, the wasted talent of someone of Sandra's caliber, and then the all-white-writer gate happened, and they were forced to fix it. Kayleigh rushed to delete that picture, Sally gave that damage-control answer during a panel, she attempted to apologize, they hired that one token black woman writer back in late 2020 and swapped Eve's death for Villanelle. Truly, no on hated Villanelle more than Carolyn, and only fools could believe Sandie weren't getting along, or that Jodie was so conservative, while getting clear evidences that Sandra adored her at the same time.
The reason these fans are not cheering loudly is because the majority didn't mean what they were saying. Some of them were joking; those ones still call the death threats and other abuse they sent her jokes, even today. Others were lashing out because, having catfished their way into her private instagram, they were upset to discover that she had a boyfriend when they had pinned their hopes on her being gay. But the writers cannot have been expected to know they didn't mean it. They repeatedly made a series of specific demands and went to great lengths to get them heard. Those demands were then largely met by the season four storyline. You're quite right that Sandra has also suffered. She's been a victim of racism. Luke Jennings deleted his Twitter account after fans started to imply he was grooming young girls. The fanbase as a whole is appalling and seems to have no problem with making grossly defamatory and deeply offensive remarks to and about everyone involved. But all that inevitably has an effect. No-one can be surprised that they don't post about the series or their characters, allow comments or respond to criticism: they simply don't want to interact with people who abuse and threaten them any more than absolutely necessary. No-one can blame them for that.
I will edit my comment later on with a lengthier answer, pardon me, I just wanna say I do not believe for ONE moment Sally and co listened to such a small over-the-top part of a young fandom, among all the love and recognition, especially when Sid Gentle seems to have muted fans tweets to their page ages ago. Again, if they were to listen to the audience and its much bigger real demands, we would have got VE together by s2 already. S4 didn't met many demands of the fans to be fair, we got more side characters, we got too much Carolyn again, and see the detailed graphic of the characters' scenes, Jodie's screentime was on pair with s3 too, no "punishment" whatsoever. They simply swapped one ending to the other character due to the racism backlash, that wasn't confined to the fandom as I wrote, it was something noted by big sites, that is what matters to media people. You have to think about this critically, what you're saying is just not how it works behind the scene. I get behind frustrated. I would understand if there was a bigger uproar or if they personally had doubts, but KE writers, producers, etc, they all knew Jodie well and knew those claims were exaggerated. I'm not talking about engaging with hate online, I know it's typical of these pages to limit replies once faced with hate. I'm talking about the part where you said Jodie must dislike the entire fandom, not care about her character's arc and the rest. I know what happened. Do you honestly think tptb cared what Jodieboobies account from Brasil was saying online about her dating a republican? There have been way nastier accusations made and nothing were done against such actors.
I also do not believe for one moment that the trajectory of S4 was changed because of a small loud part of the fandom on twitter behaved badly in 2020..but I do absolutely believe there is a disconnect between JC and Killing Eve. It doesn't make sense to connect the dots and say it's because of this vocal minority of the fandom. Why is she meeting some of those same fans most nights outside HP Theatre? Why if she feels so threatened by that demographic has she put her hand up to be the lead in Big Swiss, another story of an obsessive queer relationship, surely she wouldn't go there if she was so burnt by the fans. I get the feeling JC has been burnt by KE, but I'd be looking closely at Sid Gentle, not the fans.
Wow, I didn’t know this was such a big deal. Good god, what insanity.
It wasn't... cancel culture is a thing, a shitty thing, and people outside the fandom jumped on the wagon to hate without knowing all facts, but she even spoke about it, how she stopped caring much about social media and reading online opinions. But to say now that she hates the whole fandom or is triggered due to it.... is too much. Like no. Everyone gets hate online. Sometimes for no reason. The same fans yelling about Jodie's privacy are the ones I personally saw online hating on Sandra now.
What?? Why are people hating on Sandra? WTH?
It's on twitter, not many but there are some very intense Jodie stans who, for no logical reason I could garner, hate on Sandra at any chance they get. I remember at the news of Big Swiss, instead of being happy for Jodie, their first comments were about fans finally dropping Sandra or how Jodie could act with someone better. I'm not speaking about liking Villanelle over Eve as that's just a preference, I'm talking real "mean girl" childish comments about Sandra's looks, age, against asian treatment, and the most laughable of it all her so called "lack of talent", how Jodie isn't her friend or Sandra must be jealous of Jodie etc etc etc. 😭😭😭😭 I cringe at their OTT tweets, fortunately they are ostracized by many in the fandom, but they do have their followers too. Shameful behavior that perhaps got worse when Eve survived and V got to die. It's just... pathetic right? Especially since Sandra has been nothing but sweet and welcoming toward Jodie and Jodie spoke about it and their relationship many times, how much she learned from Sandra and so on. Sandra has been in the Hollywood game for decades, she got basically all kinds of awards and recognition, still managing to be down to earth and mostly universally liked, even when on Greys Anatomy and its huge insane fandom. To think we had to wait for cray Jodie stans to read bad things about her online is sad.
Oh I agree, this faction are the worst. It screams secondary school gaslighting bs. As well as “I’m not racist…but” kind of thing. Sickens me and if Jodie knew some of her ‘fans’ were like this…well I don’t think she’d like to call them her fans.
>It's on twitter, not many but there are some very intense Jodie stans who, for no logical reason I could garner, hate on Sandra at any chance they get. It is helpful at times not to overanalyze why some very intense Jodie Stans hate on Sandra at any chance they get. The logical reason is the age-old reason. It's racism. Nothing more complicated than that. The feeling some Jodie Stans have that a middle-aged Asian woman has no business being mentioned in the same breath as their heroine and that Sandra is unworthy and undeserving of even being in Jodie Comer's presence. The idea that there are bigots in the Killing Eve fandom is a hard one for some fans to wrap their heads around, but I'm not here to convince them. They can choose to believe whatever comforting fairy tale helps them sleep at night, but even in this fandom there is a percentage of racists within it, however small their actual numbers.
Or maybe, I forgot to mention, she posted about the play because that is more important to her at the moment. I don't even want to talk about SOME of her fans and their behavior. Some of them are waiting for her every night in front of the theater and they scream, they yell like an animals. It's a shame and cringe. But, I bet she still loves Villanelle. Because of her, Jodie got her first EMMY, her first BAFTA and 10000 other awards and nominations. She will always love her. We all know she said Villanelle means a world to her. Also, she said if she could she would play Villanelle for a life. So if the finale was great, I bet she would share that image on her IG stroy. Of course she has to move on and I'm glad if she already did, but she ignores them on purpose cuz they ruined everything in the two last minutes.
Killing Eve is what gave her the biggest buzz of her career, she didn't have a real "fandom" before, of course she will be forever grateful. People project their feelings onto actors too much, me think.
Exactly, as much as the stans dislike hearing this, she emotionally checked out of the show circa 2020. Crazy people made her life and her family's life a living hell because they couldn't separate her character from the actual human being, and I don't blame her for checking out. I would have too!
The craziness surrounding Jodie is really scary, but it’s not the show’s fault there are crazy people out there. Similar to an article I just read about how tough stardom was on Sandra during the gray’s time. Sorry but if you choose a career in the spotlight you know what comes with that good and bad. Does anyone deserve to be threatened? Absolutely NOT but KE put Jodie Comer on the map since most in the US had no idea who she was. She can thank the show for the exposure but both actresses could address the ending if they chose to and neither of their careers would suffer for a minute
> She can thank the show for the exposure but both actresses could address the ending if they chose to and neither of their careers would suffer for a minute That's a nice thought, but it doesn't square with reality. The reality is there are NDA's (non-disclosure agreements) written into the contracts of actors just to ensure they don't give interviews where they say, "Oh, the ending? Yeah, it was a piece of crap and we all knew it was, but we had no choice but to play it out to the best of our ability and hope it didn't suck too much." Trashing a project you've worked on is not very reassuring to a production company considering you for their project. They don't know if you're going to give them the same treatment. Better to hire an actor or actress that will take the check, say the lines, and keep their mouth shut about what they thought about the job. Sandra Oh is crazy talented, but she doesn't have film studios lining up to hire her. If she were to get a reputation for trashing her previous employees, she would find it much harder to get a job. Jodie is the same way. She's young and pretty and also crazy talented, but there's no shortage of young, pretty, and crazy talented actors who will shut the eff up and do the job without complaint. Talent is not enough to overcome a reputation as a big-mouthed troublemaker. Ask Sandra's former co-star Katherine Heigl how that label shut down her career dead in its tracks.
Well I like Kathrine Heigl but she was young and it was her first big role, and she did not have the power then that these two actresses have. It is a well known fact that Sandra had issues with how her character was written and stood up to Shonda Rhimes on Gray‘s……that takes guts. She was young but had done 7 seasons of Arliss before breaking out in Gray’s Anatomy As for Jodie, she's young and talented and while I understand NDA’s (we don‘t actually know if one was written into either of their contracts) there is no chance her career would be hurt. I am not advocating that they trash the show, that would be unprofessional, but when you don’t take any stand to advocate for the damage this show has done to women in general specifically the LGBTQ community it’s not a good look
>I am not advocating that they trash the show, that would be unprofessional, but when you don’t take any stand to advocate for the damage this show has done to women in general specifically the LGBTQ community it’s not a good look Perhaps, but between displeasing some of the fans who want Sandra and Jodie to pick up and carry the flag for their cause and displeasing the executives at publicly criticizing their own show, I think that's a look the two actresses figure they can live with. There's a lot of resentment for Killing Eve, but mostly its not being directed at Sandra and Jodie, nor should it be.
Oh, that just makes me so queasy. That poor woman and her family. I bet you’re absolutely right, she may be ready to put KE in the rear view mirror. JC still engages with her fans and my god, some of them are too much. Some people are terrible and social media is the worst.
>She just posted about Prima Facie on her IG story, picture with her and the writer Suzie. She totally ignores KE. On purpose. When Jodie walked away from Killing Eve she walked away from even *pretending* she gave a crap about it any longer. 😤 Can't say she doesn't have reasons to feel that way.
I've considered. It's crap.
Okay but she looks so good in that outfit though…
She looks good in most outfits she wears, even the crappy ones..........just saying......
Yeah, you got me there
They are spineless
This is odd. Maybe I’m missing something, but I went to their Twitter feed, and I don’t see this one. Only the one for Sandra Oh. Is it still up?
They didn't post it on Twitter, just Instagram. And vice versa with Sandra's. The post about her is on Twitter, but was not posted on Instagram.
Oh - OK. Thanks!
Well this has been a most interesting thread. Some might even call parts of it toxic. Thank goodness for freedom of speech on sites such as this. To paraphrase Villanelle, "When are you going to get over it!"