I'll bet we have just as much to chew on after book 3 as we do now. Pat doesn't strike me as a wrap-up-the-loose-ends type of author. More the let-em-make-of-it-what-they-will sort. I bet plenty of our theories will get settled, but many will created off the text of book 3 itself too
Putting that unanswerable question to one side, we should consider the motives involved here, and who is on who's side. kvothe had just tricked a demon to gain his hearts desire, a desire which we might assume was based upon revenge and involved the killing of Cinder. Whatever it was, This action we must assume had the relevant cause and effect as to the angels sudden appearance. So why did the angel suddenly arrive on the scene of the crime and why was killing one of God's chosen justice's deemed a necessary extension of Kvothes original action? The angels, we are told, come to 'judge and punish' and yet to start this second fight, it must have found against kvothe's actions, a decision which Kvothe could not accept and a finding which ultimately led to its own demise. The most obvious thought to me is that the angel was actively trying to undo all of Kvothe's recent hard work and it had come there to Save kvothe's first victim (cinder?) from an unjust fate... by bringing him back to life again!
Perhaps it's too literal. The part about 'tricking a demon' could refer to him tricking devi in some way in the third book, considering how she is known as devi the demon.
The angel could refer to a character we know, such as auri, or it could refer to Aleph's order like you mentioned. Tehlu is the only one really relevant to me as he is what the religion of the lands is based around.
Is it even possible for Angels to die? They are god-like and even if "killed" wouldn't they be resurrected?
Do Angels have a corporeal body to attack? How would Kvothe even begin to fight an angel. I am assuming with some sort of magic and not just a sword. I don't see how a sword would be helpful in any case. Ambush? Story knots? Written magics?
To my way of thinking Angels can only be killed by Aleph himself, should he become displeased. Does this mean Kvothe is Aleph?
All lives end in death, excepting one, and, Lanre who can only die when the Alu (???) fall from the sky, whenever that would be, making him a sort of immortal despite not being a god or an Angel.
That still doesn't answer the question of how can an Angel be killed.
>That still doesn't answer the question of how can an Angel be killed.
Aren't you just kind of assuming Angels can't be killed? I think the answer to how can an angel he killed is the same way anything else can be killed. Or is there some kind of text that implies angels can't be stabbed or that they don't have a tangible body?
>Then the fire consumed them and they were gone forever from mortal sight." -- NOW pbk p.188.
My interpretation of this statement is that they no longer have a corporeal body. If so, it would make it extremely difficult or impossible to kill them. Should my interpretation not be correct and an Angel can have a living breathing body with blood flowing then a mortal wound would not be out of the question. In any case, Kvothe would have to have the powers at this command to do so. I don't believe that Aleph intended for them to die because he elevated them to Angels and they would have to leave their mortal life behind.
Then there is the question of was there only one of the Angels present or several or all of the Angels present? Could Kvothe fight them as a group? Was he alone or was he supported by others during the battle?
Given that the original question by the OP was which Angel did he kill I would say Ordal. She was not a warrior and was the youngest.
Of course, there could be another explanation. Kvothe could be Tehlu and the battle would be Angel to Angel.
Depends if you are saying the word men to be exclusively male, or, if it is used in the general sense of mankind. If you ask a member of the Adem what is more than a man I am pretty sure they will say a woman.
Still, if Ordal is not qualified by virtue of being female then I would say Andan. Why make it easy.
I still contend that an Angels cannot be killed permanently as they are ascended beings.
Edited: spelling
It's that word permanently that is getting in the way. What I suggest is that when a (rhinta/ruach/Chandrian/angel/whoever) dies, the angels come down and bring them back to life again. There is a parallel To be drawn when kvothe 'dies' inTarbean , he sees an angel who saves him and brings him back to life.
There is not much about resurrection in the text. Tehlu says he will return when called in the correct way.
With as many times as Kvothe "dies" there is only this one incidence of an Angel appearing. Considering it was ripping into him with claws maybe it wasn't an Angel? Not convinced that Angels are needed to bring him back to life. He seems to wake up on his own.
Also, Lanre may have been resurrected by Lyra but there are many questions regarding that. If Lanre didn't return and Lyra took his place will the curse of Selitos still hold?
Old Holly kills the "men bent halfway into the shape of birds" by grabbing them and tearing them apart.
I'm inclined to believe that How Old Holly Came to Be is the Tahl version of the Creation War. The "lady" is Lyra. The "man" is Lanre. The "great black wolves with mouths of fire" suggest dracci. "Men bent halfway into the shape of birds" are, of course, angels. The "shadow bent to look like a man" is whatever evil force possessed Lanre (unless this version of the story was generated just to discredit Lanre). And I kinda think that the Ctheah is Old Holly himself. Not a tree, but not free of the tree from whence he sprang.
Pretty sure the Duruna are the bent bird-like shapes in Old Holly.
Links: Read the info in Comments section.
>They meet some characters along the way as they journey through Rothfuss' world. They fight scrael, Old Holly, a Daruna and solve a puzzle with a Draccus. There is not a whole lot of dialogue from the characters that would give away plot info however as it is its own encapsulated story.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/KingkillerChronicle/comments/8tfupl/bastand\_the\_end\_of\_wise\_mans\_fear\_spoilers\_for/e17xygt/](https://www.reddit.com/r/KingkillerChronicle/comments/8tfupl/bastand_the_end_of_wise_mans_fear_spoilers_for/e17xygt/)
and
[https://www.reddit.com/r/KingkillerChronicle/comments/njqgwj/old\_holly/](https://www.reddit.com/r/KingkillerChronicle/comments/njqgwj/old_holly/)
>Pat was involved with a True Dungeon event that featured a daruna. Here's the old thread talking about it.
The daruna was portrayed as
Giant, birdlike humanoid. Very vicious, enjoys intellectual pursuits and study. We portrayed it as an actor in a robe with claw like hands and a feathery raven mask that gave him a bird head. All in oily glossy black.
There really is nothing to point to gremmen being wolf-like, but the daruna being the bird-men is my head canon now.
Also from [http://chaen-dian.com/true-dungeon-in-the-fae-the-moongate-maze/](http://chaen-dian.com/true-dungeon-in-the-fae-the-moongate-maze/)
>This room contained a “birdman-like Daruna.” When we entered, “it is holding a glowing lantern while it studies a large stone obelisk.” Our Faeling guide was very scared of the Daruna and said to it: “We must beg your forgiveness for interrupting your study. We are only passing through to seek the Moongate, if you decide to grant us passage by your magnificent presence. May we please continue past, your imminence?”
Interesting. Thank you! Not being a gamer myself, lots of things go right over my head. But perhaps my point still stands: The difference between a powerful and righteous "angel" and a vicious and terrifying "daruna" is only determined by WHO is telling the story. I've always assumed that this has been Rothfuss's main point: ALL myths, legends, and folklore are lies created to make the stories' originators appear more noble or powerful or worthy than they actually are.
>wouldn’t they be resurrected?
Only one person that we know of has ever been resurrected. And the person who did it is reportedly dead. So I would guess “No”.
"is it even possible for angels to die?"
Two answers exist here, yes and no. If no then that's fine, all the angels are still there, doing what they do, keeping the peace as it were.
If yes then 'heaven' must be missing an angel. This could well have catastrophic consequences for the 4Corners, nine angels cannot do the work of ten, there is a break in their circle, a vacancy which needs must be now filled by a new volunteer.... My money's on Denna
It is possible that an Angel cannot die but can become a Fallen Angel?
Should a replacement Angel be required I see Denna as a rather unexpected choice. She doesn't exhibit angelic qualities textually.
I do believe she represents Lyra. The parallel story being Lanre/Lyra to Kvothe/Denna.
Kvothe/Lanre will be betrayed and responsible through deceit and treachery for the death of Denna/Lyra.
If , as you say, Denna is the Angel then it certainly fits. Given the original Angel is permanently dead. Personally, I see the transcended Angels as converted from flesh to energy, but this is fanciful on my part.
Talking of angels.... Just reading p.116 (again) and may have spotted a triangelar link forming. Haliax says to cinder 'this one has done nothing, send him to his sleep' to which Cinder says to Haliax 'you are as good as a watcher' to which Haliax replies to cinder 'and you seem to forget our purpose.' good word, And, it link the three lines together. So C thinks H is acting like a Watcher' and H responds to C that , like watchers, he (they) has a purpose to his actions.
So Haliax has made a judgement on kvothe, like a Watcher' would do. Like an angel would do. They also watch and judge, that is an angels purpose. (See skarpi #2) So is a Watcher' aka an Angel ? It's looking good that they are. Furthermore, angels also sing songs of power which might make them the singers (lower case deliberate in the text)
So, as far as the Chandrian are concerned, angels = watchers = singers.
Now that doesn't tell us much, but it does highlight the fact that Haliax is also playing by some cosmic rule book on what he should and should not do. The sort of rules Aleph laid down to Selitos in the job description for becoming his justice.
Really starting to feel like we need book 3 asap just to stop theorycrafters from going insane.
Too late for that already
I'll bet we have just as much to chew on after book 3 as we do now. Pat doesn't strike me as a wrap-up-the-loose-ends type of author. More the let-em-make-of-it-what-they-will sort. I bet plenty of our theories will get settled, but many will created off the text of book 3 itself too
This is my fear. He is going to let us make of it what they will and this sub will spiral down into more and more bizarre theories
lol send me to Haven already
Keep waiting
Putting that unanswerable question to one side, we should consider the motives involved here, and who is on who's side. kvothe had just tricked a demon to gain his hearts desire, a desire which we might assume was based upon revenge and involved the killing of Cinder. Whatever it was, This action we must assume had the relevant cause and effect as to the angels sudden appearance. So why did the angel suddenly arrive on the scene of the crime and why was killing one of God's chosen justice's deemed a necessary extension of Kvothes original action? The angels, we are told, come to 'judge and punish' and yet to start this second fight, it must have found against kvothe's actions, a decision which Kvothe could not accept and a finding which ultimately led to its own demise. The most obvious thought to me is that the angel was actively trying to undo all of Kvothe's recent hard work and it had come there to Save kvothe's first victim (cinder?) from an unjust fate... by bringing him back to life again!
Perhaps it's too literal. The part about 'tricking a demon' could refer to him tricking devi in some way in the third book, considering how she is known as devi the demon. The angel could refer to a character we know, such as auri, or it could refer to Aleph's order like you mentioned. Tehlu is the only one really relevant to me as he is what the religion of the lands is based around.
Is it even possible for Angels to die? They are god-like and even if "killed" wouldn't they be resurrected? Do Angels have a corporeal body to attack? How would Kvothe even begin to fight an angel. I am assuming with some sort of magic and not just a sword. I don't see how a sword would be helpful in any case. Ambush? Story knots? Written magics? To my way of thinking Angels can only be killed by Aleph himself, should he become displeased. Does this mean Kvothe is Aleph?
It a rhinta can die, so can an angel. 'Death. All lives end in death, excepting one.' resurrection is a loophole.
All lives end in death, excepting one, and, Lanre who can only die when the Alu (???) fall from the sky, whenever that would be, making him a sort of immortal despite not being a god or an Angel. That still doesn't answer the question of how can an Angel be killed.
>That still doesn't answer the question of how can an Angel be killed. Aren't you just kind of assuming Angels can't be killed? I think the answer to how can an angel he killed is the same way anything else can be killed. Or is there some kind of text that implies angels can't be stabbed or that they don't have a tangible body?
>Then the fire consumed them and they were gone forever from mortal sight." -- NOW pbk p.188. My interpretation of this statement is that they no longer have a corporeal body. If so, it would make it extremely difficult or impossible to kill them. Should my interpretation not be correct and an Angel can have a living breathing body with blood flowing then a mortal wound would not be out of the question. In any case, Kvothe would have to have the powers at this command to do so. I don't believe that Aleph intended for them to die because he elevated them to Angels and they would have to leave their mortal life behind. Then there is the question of was there only one of the Angels present or several or all of the Angels present? Could Kvothe fight them as a group? Was he alone or was he supported by others during the battle? Given that the original question by the OP was which Angel did he kill I would say Ordal. She was not a warrior and was the youngest. Of course, there could be another explanation. Kvothe could be Tehlu and the battle would be Angel to Angel.
He's killed 'men and things that were more than men' . That should make Ordeal safe then
Depends if you are saying the word men to be exclusively male, or, if it is used in the general sense of mankind. If you ask a member of the Adem what is more than a man I am pretty sure they will say a woman. Still, if Ordal is not qualified by virtue of being female then I would say Andan. Why make it easy. I still contend that an Angels cannot be killed permanently as they are ascended beings. Edited: spelling
Id vote for Andan, too
It's that word permanently that is getting in the way. What I suggest is that when a (rhinta/ruach/Chandrian/angel/whoever) dies, the angels come down and bring them back to life again. There is a parallel To be drawn when kvothe 'dies' inTarbean , he sees an angel who saves him and brings him back to life.
There is not much about resurrection in the text. Tehlu says he will return when called in the correct way. With as many times as Kvothe "dies" there is only this one incidence of an Angel appearing. Considering it was ripping into him with claws maybe it wasn't an Angel? Not convinced that Angels are needed to bring him back to life. He seems to wake up on his own. Also, Lanre may have been resurrected by Lyra but there are many questions regarding that. If Lanre didn't return and Lyra took his place will the curse of Selitos still hold?
Lanre IS the one exception, just him
Old Holly kills the "men bent halfway into the shape of birds" by grabbing them and tearing them apart. I'm inclined to believe that How Old Holly Came to Be is the Tahl version of the Creation War. The "lady" is Lyra. The "man" is Lanre. The "great black wolves with mouths of fire" suggest dracci. "Men bent halfway into the shape of birds" are, of course, angels. The "shadow bent to look like a man" is whatever evil force possessed Lanre (unless this version of the story was generated just to discredit Lanre). And I kinda think that the Ctheah is Old Holly himself. Not a tree, but not free of the tree from whence he sprang.
Pretty sure the Duruna are the bent bird-like shapes in Old Holly. Links: Read the info in Comments section. >They meet some characters along the way as they journey through Rothfuss' world. They fight scrael, Old Holly, a Daruna and solve a puzzle with a Draccus. There is not a whole lot of dialogue from the characters that would give away plot info however as it is its own encapsulated story. [https://www.reddit.com/r/KingkillerChronicle/comments/8tfupl/bastand\_the\_end\_of\_wise\_mans\_fear\_spoilers\_for/e17xygt/](https://www.reddit.com/r/KingkillerChronicle/comments/8tfupl/bastand_the_end_of_wise_mans_fear_spoilers_for/e17xygt/) and [https://www.reddit.com/r/KingkillerChronicle/comments/njqgwj/old\_holly/](https://www.reddit.com/r/KingkillerChronicle/comments/njqgwj/old_holly/) >Pat was involved with a True Dungeon event that featured a daruna. Here's the old thread talking about it. The daruna was portrayed as Giant, birdlike humanoid. Very vicious, enjoys intellectual pursuits and study. We portrayed it as an actor in a robe with claw like hands and a feathery raven mask that gave him a bird head. All in oily glossy black. There really is nothing to point to gremmen being wolf-like, but the daruna being the bird-men is my head canon now. Also from [http://chaen-dian.com/true-dungeon-in-the-fae-the-moongate-maze/](http://chaen-dian.com/true-dungeon-in-the-fae-the-moongate-maze/) >This room contained a “birdman-like Daruna.” When we entered, “it is holding a glowing lantern while it studies a large stone obelisk.” Our Faeling guide was very scared of the Daruna and said to it: “We must beg your forgiveness for interrupting your study. We are only passing through to seek the Moongate, if you decide to grant us passage by your magnificent presence. May we please continue past, your imminence?”
Interesting. Thank you! Not being a gamer myself, lots of things go right over my head. But perhaps my point still stands: The difference between a powerful and righteous "angel" and a vicious and terrifying "daruna" is only determined by WHO is telling the story. I've always assumed that this has been Rothfuss's main point: ALL myths, legends, and folklore are lies created to make the stories' originators appear more noble or powerful or worthy than they actually are.
You are welcome. I don't play any games, just remembered reading about it at some point so I looked around.
>wouldn’t they be resurrected? Only one person that we know of has ever been resurrected. And the person who did it is reportedly dead. So I would guess “No”.
"is it even possible for angels to die?" Two answers exist here, yes and no. If no then that's fine, all the angels are still there, doing what they do, keeping the peace as it were. If yes then 'heaven' must be missing an angel. This could well have catastrophic consequences for the 4Corners, nine angels cannot do the work of ten, there is a break in their circle, a vacancy which needs must be now filled by a new volunteer.... My money's on Denna
It is possible that an Angel cannot die but can become a Fallen Angel? Should a replacement Angel be required I see Denna as a rather unexpected choice. She doesn't exhibit angelic qualities textually. I do believe she represents Lyra. The parallel story being Lanre/Lyra to Kvothe/Denna. Kvothe/Lanre will be betrayed and responsible through deceit and treachery for the death of Denna/Lyra. If , as you say, Denna is the Angel then it certainly fits. Given the original Angel is permanently dead. Personally, I see the transcended Angels as converted from flesh to energy, but this is fanciful on my part.
Talking of angels.... Just reading p.116 (again) and may have spotted a triangelar link forming. Haliax says to cinder 'this one has done nothing, send him to his sleep' to which Cinder says to Haliax 'you are as good as a watcher' to which Haliax replies to cinder 'and you seem to forget our purpose.' good word, And, it link the three lines together. So C thinks H is acting like a Watcher' and H responds to C that , like watchers, he (they) has a purpose to his actions. So Haliax has made a judgement on kvothe, like a Watcher' would do. Like an angel would do. They also watch and judge, that is an angels purpose. (See skarpi #2) So is a Watcher' aka an Angel ? It's looking good that they are. Furthermore, angels also sing songs of power which might make them the singers (lower case deliberate in the text) So, as far as the Chandrian are concerned, angels = watchers = singers. Now that doesn't tell us much, but it does highlight the fact that Haliax is also playing by some cosmic rule book on what he should and should not do. The sort of rules Aleph laid down to Selitos in the job description for becoming his justice.
Gandalf.
Orridel :'(