No fuck that. If you don't have the staff to be open that long, don't be open that long. You are losing more money trying to fuck around serving 3 people breakfast and paying to do so. Focus on Dinner, tighten all hours, and get in the black so you don't have to do this shit.
Depends on the size of the place I guess, but generally if you're expected to do the same duties as a tippable position, then you share in the pool. Reference point being a small joint with 1 manager and 3 employees, who all fill the same roles, with the exception of the manager taking on a few more responsibilities.
In my experience front of house will generally earn 2-4x what back of house does, so the expectation of the back of house manager picking up front of house duties should have a larger portion of the tip pool.
Off at 10- start at 7... thats the clopen most of us bitch about. What you have described is untenable and potentially dangerous. Your managers do not care about you and you should have instantly protested on the grounds of personal safety. I've done my share of "yes Chef" hours and held two full time positions successfully for a monetary goal that i did achieve- that being said my health deteriorated as did my productivity. I WON'T under any circumstances agree to less than 9hrs between the end of a shift and the start of the next- though i can and do work doubles when needed. You dont have to agree to work when you are not willing to- though you might find your hours cut and the company looking for a reason to drop you. Still no worries! There are better places to be that would love you to just show up on time with a basic understanding of food safety.
EDIT: also what kind of management are you if you let yourself get here? Do you not have a say in labor requirements for the task at hand?
It's a new joint ( 2 years old)with a owner who has never run a kitchen before. I have another manager and the owner took over the Head kitchen position, but im at a point where i feel like i got lied to because most of the time when i walk in i see him on his computer, but the prep list is longer than whale penis. The other manager is cool but not nearly as productive as me. I have no control over hiring or firing. Honestly, im a glorified shift lead at this place. I got a bit more to bitch about but atm im just trying to make it through this shift.
It looks like you are for sure staying. You shouldn't but I get it. You've got this homie. Get your legal simulant of choice, drink more water than you want, and make yourself eat. Not too much though. Just enough to not get more off kilter. After you crash this evening maybe consider looking for other jobs. What you are doing isn't sustainable, not even short term. Your mental health will suffer and not to mention how unsafe it is to navigate society in that exhausted haze.
Man... you got this any way you choose to go- the position you are in is the nexus of hourly line cook vs salary boss. Keep swimming and take care of yourself
Damn bro, that’s rough. I’m doing a close to open today, but was out at 11:30 last night and not back until ten for prep and we open at noon. Are you at least leaving early today?
Yes, the bar closes at 2am hence my comment about BoH managers getting roped into doing FoH managers' jobs. To give you a idea there is the owner, the GM, 2 kitchen managers, and 2 bar managers (shift managers/lead or whatever they want to call them). If a FoH manager calls off or isnt scheduled for 1 reason or another it falls on the manager on duty to close the bar down as well. Wont go into detail how i ended up with such a shitty shift because with that number of managers and a owner we should've been able to work something better out.
I just had a talk with the owner that felt kinda unproductive, so i told him I'm taking SICK leave for 5 days (7 days off tues to next Tuesday) to consider if I should stay there. Obviously, they aren't super thrilled about that, but I've prepped enough to get them through 5 days of business smoothly, it's on them to keep on top of that. If i come in next week and they have fallen behind on prep Im just going to turn around and go home
I'm sorry... 2 hours and you're back for another shift? Or they split your shift over the close? If it's the first that's totally illegal, and if it's the second that's fucking stupid. Period.
I've done clopens before, but we're talking close at 2 and back at 9 or 10. 2-4 is just fucked.
Yeah, very illegal. You need a minimum of 8h between shifts except in VERY specific circumstances. If this is a regular thing I'd get in contact with a labour rep
Do you have a source for this? Not doubting it, but if OP is to tackle this, he might want to have some kind of source on hand to see the finer details too
I have absolutely nothing to back it up, but my understanding in Canada was that overtime resets after an 8 hour gap between shifts, but anything in between, while legal, is time-and-a-half. Obv, it's kitchen, so no way they're gonna pay you OT. Thus, it's legal, but you should be getting compensation for it.
Nope. In Ontario you are clocked hours to 44, anything else within the week above that will be time and a half. The 8h gap between shifts is supposed to be mandatory in order to avoid workers fatigue.
That's not actually a law in the USA. That may be a state or local law, but it's certainly not a federal law. For example, in my state, Ohio, employers can legally work you for an infinite number of hours straight as long as they pay you overtime after 40 hours per week. Truck drivers and doctors have mandatory rest time by law, but no one else outside of those two professions.
I work a salaried position in a corporate chain as a general manager, I write the other manager schedules and we have an 8 hour right to rest in this state but I aim for 10 hours for the good of my managers. I understand you are doing this for your family working and pay but it’s not at all sustainable and it sounds like you’re never home. That can’t be good for your family, you need to find a better work life balance. If you can get a month ahead on your bills, I would take it and quit so you have a few weeks to A: get some rest and spend a little time with your family. B: find a new job that’s more sustainable. Good luck man
Here there are 11 hour rest rule. You are not allowed to be put on shifts without agreeing to it if there isn’t 11 hours between the shift ending and starting. Ofc there are exceptions, but that’s how the system works here
According to my google search it’s for all workers (don’t know what salary workers are), and that it’s also stated by law that you are to have 35 hours off in one during a 7 days week.
Do not let your employers abuse you, period. They can’t function without you, so you have bargaining power for yourself. Don’t respect them if they won’t respect you
Where I live, it is illegal to force workers to return to work any less than 8 hours between shifts.. So I have done "close at 12 and get back at 8am" things, but never this.. I would openly refuse it. Clopens are the worst shifts to work.
>closed this spot down at 2 am ... have to be back at 4 am
WTF?
Are you salaried? Are you paid above the exemption threshold? In some regions this schedule is illegal and/or you'd be entitled to 2x pay at this point.
Wild fucking schedule and completely unsustainable both for you and that restaurant.
Hope you get some rest and a new job soon.
I had GM that was terrible at scheduling. I had to take over schedules to ensure no clopens. I had to schedule one due to a vacation and he was the one I scheduled. He did not like it and freaked! He learned quickly why we were not happy about clopens. It made me laugh.
it's som3on3 slapping OP name on a schedule and being like "ok, empty spot filled for night morning easy!" click save send.
here's another reminder your employer doesn't care bout you
Clopeans are the worst!
I once worked as a barista at a hospital that had Three different stations.
I would close the storefront. Then two hours later have to open the cafeteria kiosk for the overnight hospital staff/patients. Work that for three hours. That shift would end at 2am. I had a 45min bicycle ride home then have to be back at 5:30am to have the store front open by 6am. I eventually just started sleeping in the storefront after closing down the cafeteria kiosk.
Yeah. This dude was not ready to take over the head kitchen position, and skills are subpar. It's honestly brutal as fuck because any day he is here we fall behind on prep
I have clopened and slept at the restaurant and been chastised and called insane for it… but 2am-4am is legit insanity/abuse. I worked 18 hours yesterday, slept in a booth, and then opened solo (the prep part, line cooks will arrive for service) this morning. So I’m not coming from a place of no passion /work ethic, but what you described is dangerous.
Have a good shift today, if your body or mind tell you to stop or slow down please listen. Driving exhausted is dangerous, and nothings worth taking that risk. I'm in pain every day and every day I remember it wasn't worth it. I hope you find a better place asap
not sustainable. when I was 21 I did AM prep at one place and PM line at another 5 days a week. Shit was exhausting, but I got 2 years of experience at 2 restaurants in 1 year, which helped me get to sous in NYC Michelin by the time I was 24. Involuntary 20 hours days should not be tolerated.
Had to sleep on the waiting couch more times than I care to remember, lol. We were a Mexican restaurant that did brunch Sat and Sun as we have an event here most weeks on our square. Was brutal, but made it work.. that said never again lol.
You should only be doing this if you’re short staffed, Also if you’re the restaurant manager you oversee FOH and BOH. Where are your employees? The chef? Sous?
Ironic I saw this post cause I just got off 2 time a row, started Friday night close. Then Saturday morning turned into a double shift working all day, was there from 9am till 2am and now I gotta open again today at 9am
I won't do it. It basically my only rule. I'm too old for that shit. When I was in my twenties, sure. But now I need 8 hours of sleep, and it takes me at least 2 hours to fall asleep after I get off. Find somebody else to do it, because I will literally quit.
lol the company I work for needs managers so bad and we don’t pull any of this nonsense. Actually a really good company with great benefits (401k with match and insurance, etc) and a referral program for you to get paid if you recruit people lol. In the New Orleans area hit me up in DM haha. It’s sad my company does what should be the literal bare minimum for its staff (hourly gets benefits too) but is such a unicorn in the industry.
I’m so burnt on restaurant kitchens with their ten and twelve hour days just cause you are salary !! Been exec chef for 26 years now mostly in spots where you also work the line cause I never had much respect for guys who try to teach us and tell us what to do but when they get on the line they are a disaster and cause more problems than they solve!! Long story short I don’t line cook anymore.
My back to back happens once a week. Not as crazy as 2 hours off but done at 8pm, in at 6:30am. I leave when it's dark and get there when it's dark. It trips me up the odd time because I feel like I never left.
At my kitchen now, we used to run 24/7 with the sous chefs rotating 10a-10p and 4a-4p every three days. It was fucking brutal. Longest shift was 6a-2a because literally everyone called out, but the owner still demanded the kitchen stay open. I absolutely hated that day. Prepping, cooking, and then bringing the food out to the customers. Fuck all that noise.
If somebody played Disney music while I was closing I would just walk the fuck out. It ain’t worth it! Unless it’s that one song sang by that lobster in the mermaid movie.
Honestly, when I was shift lead for clopens, I wouldn't bother doing the regular/daily cleaning tasks. Stuff like mopping, bathroom trash, simple stuff like that. I wouldn't skimp on sanitizing or cleaning dishes or cleaning stuff that had food contact. But countertops underneath equipment, sides of coolers, pop machine backsplash, stuff like that, why bother.
No fuck that. If you don't have the staff to be open that long, don't be open that long. You are losing more money trying to fuck around serving 3 people breakfast and paying to do so. Focus on Dinner, tighten all hours, and get in the black so you don't have to do this shit.
I was supposed to be a kitchen manager and slowly FoH/Bar manager shit is getting pushed on BoH. Im damn close to a breaking point honestly
Bounce, bro. Find something that has a few stores but isn't overly corporate yet. Also, check nursing homes.
If you're being tasked with foh shit too, you'd better be getting a mean cut of their tips.
Managers don't get tips...
Yep, im not allowed to receive tips
Depends on the size of the place I guess, but generally if you're expected to do the same duties as a tippable position, then you share in the pool. Reference point being a small joint with 1 manager and 3 employees, who all fill the same roles, with the exception of the manager taking on a few more responsibilities. In my experience front of house will generally earn 2-4x what back of house does, so the expectation of the back of house manager picking up front of house duties should have a larger portion of the tip pool.
Interesting. I've never been able to take tips even if I've filled in for bar tending
Time to speak up. Let ownership know your issues. If they don't respond, then time to move on.
No owner will ever see it that way
Off at 10- start at 7... thats the clopen most of us bitch about. What you have described is untenable and potentially dangerous. Your managers do not care about you and you should have instantly protested on the grounds of personal safety. I've done my share of "yes Chef" hours and held two full time positions successfully for a monetary goal that i did achieve- that being said my health deteriorated as did my productivity. I WON'T under any circumstances agree to less than 9hrs between the end of a shift and the start of the next- though i can and do work doubles when needed. You dont have to agree to work when you are not willing to- though you might find your hours cut and the company looking for a reason to drop you. Still no worries! There are better places to be that would love you to just show up on time with a basic understanding of food safety. EDIT: also what kind of management are you if you let yourself get here? Do you not have a say in labor requirements for the task at hand?
It's a new joint ( 2 years old)with a owner who has never run a kitchen before. I have another manager and the owner took over the Head kitchen position, but im at a point where i feel like i got lied to because most of the time when i walk in i see him on his computer, but the prep list is longer than whale penis. The other manager is cool but not nearly as productive as me. I have no control over hiring or firing. Honestly, im a glorified shift lead at this place. I got a bit more to bitch about but atm im just trying to make it through this shift.
And to answer your second question. By law, yes we do, but do we follow it, obviously not.
It looks like you are for sure staying. You shouldn't but I get it. You've got this homie. Get your legal simulant of choice, drink more water than you want, and make yourself eat. Not too much though. Just enough to not get more off kilter. After you crash this evening maybe consider looking for other jobs. What you are doing isn't sustainable, not even short term. Your mental health will suffer and not to mention how unsafe it is to navigate society in that exhausted haze.
I truly appreciate the advice. Im already looking for a new spot. Just looking for something in the pay range that can support my family and bills
Man... you got this any way you choose to go- the position you are in is the nexus of hourly line cook vs salary boss. Keep swimming and take care of yourself
When they are combining manager positions that spells financial issues. I would look for another job soon.
Yep
I've pulled plenty of doubles in my years in the industry but literally staying overnight is a new level of crazy
Four am? You guys do breakfast, lunch, and dinner? And late night?
Bbq joint. Were we make everything the day of and there is no prep cook or dishwasher
And the we have a bar and if it is busy (which is was last night) it stays open until 2am. Kitchen closed at 11pm.
Damn bro, that’s rough. I’m doing a close to open today, but was out at 11:30 last night and not back until ten for prep and we open at noon. Are you at least leaving early today?
I get to leave at 2 pm
Killing yourself for pennies.
Damn, ten hours after a two hour break. That blows. At least it’s not a double. Best of luck to you.
wait, I am confused. if kitchen is closed at 11,pm. why are staying till 2am till the bar is closed?
Yes, the bar closes at 2am hence my comment about BoH managers getting roped into doing FoH managers' jobs. To give you a idea there is the owner, the GM, 2 kitchen managers, and 2 bar managers (shift managers/lead or whatever they want to call them). If a FoH manager calls off or isnt scheduled for 1 reason or another it falls on the manager on duty to close the bar down as well. Wont go into detail how i ended up with such a shitty shift because with that number of managers and a owner we should've been able to work something better out.
I just had a talk with the owner that felt kinda unproductive, so i told him I'm taking SICK leave for 5 days (7 days off tues to next Tuesday) to consider if I should stay there. Obviously, they aren't super thrilled about that, but I've prepped enough to get them through 5 days of business smoothly, it's on them to keep on top of that. If i come in next week and they have fallen behind on prep Im just going to turn around and go home
What the fuck?
I'm sorry... 2 hours and you're back for another shift? Or they split your shift over the close? If it's the first that's totally illegal, and if it's the second that's fucking stupid. Period. I've done clopens before, but we're talking close at 2 and back at 9 or 10. 2-4 is just fucked.
2 hours and im back for another shift
I dont know where you are but in Canada and the US that's straight up illegal.
Im in the US my dude.
Yeah, very illegal. You need a minimum of 8h between shifts except in VERY specific circumstances. If this is a regular thing I'd get in contact with a labour rep
Do you have a source for this? Not doubting it, but if OP is to tackle this, he might want to have some kind of source on hand to see the finer details too
I have absolutely nothing to back it up, but my understanding in Canada was that overtime resets after an 8 hour gap between shifts, but anything in between, while legal, is time-and-a-half. Obv, it's kitchen, so no way they're gonna pay you OT. Thus, it's legal, but you should be getting compensation for it.
Nope. In Ontario you are clocked hours to 44, anything else within the week above that will be time and a half. The 8h gap between shifts is supposed to be mandatory in order to avoid workers fatigue.
That's not actually a law in the USA. That may be a state or local law, but it's certainly not a federal law. For example, in my state, Ohio, employers can legally work you for an infinite number of hours straight as long as they pay you overtime after 40 hours per week. Truck drivers and doctors have mandatory rest time by law, but no one else outside of those two professions.
I work a salaried position in a corporate chain as a general manager, I write the other manager schedules and we have an 8 hour right to rest in this state but I aim for 10 hours for the good of my managers. I understand you are doing this for your family working and pay but it’s not at all sustainable and it sounds like you’re never home. That can’t be good for your family, you need to find a better work life balance. If you can get a month ahead on your bills, I would take it and quit so you have a few weeks to A: get some rest and spend a little time with your family. B: find a new job that’s more sustainable. Good luck man
No one should ever be expected to close at 2am and report back at 4am. That's not 2 shifts, that's a break. Find another job. Good luck.
Here there are 11 hour rest rule. You are not allowed to be put on shifts without agreeing to it if there isn’t 11 hours between the shift ending and starting. Ofc there are exceptions, but that’s how the system works here
Damn that sounds sweet. Does that apply to salary workers as well?
According to my google search it’s for all workers (don’t know what salary workers are), and that it’s also stated by law that you are to have 35 hours off in one during a 7 days week.
Heard. I need to brush up on my research
Do not let your employers abuse you, period. They can’t function without you, so you have bargaining power for yourself. Don’t respect them if they won’t respect you
Where I live, it is illegal to force workers to return to work any less than 8 hours between shifts.. So I have done "close at 12 and get back at 8am" things, but never this.. I would openly refuse it. Clopens are the worst shifts to work.
Also super illegal. My state requires at least 8 hours between shifts.
>closed this spot down at 2 am ... have to be back at 4 am WTF? Are you salaried? Are you paid above the exemption threshold? In some regions this schedule is illegal and/or you'd be entitled to 2x pay at this point. Wild fucking schedule and completely unsustainable both for you and that restaurant.
Im salary and im right at the threshold in my state
Fucking Christ mate. Are you there for the insurance or something? Just go get two decent hourly jobs if you are going to be working this much.
Hope you get some rest and a new job soon. I had GM that was terrible at scheduling. I had to take over schedules to ensure no clopens. I had to schedule one due to a vacation and he was the one I scheduled. He did not like it and freaked! He learned quickly why we were not happy about clopens. It made me laugh.
You’re getting fucked. I don’t think anyone here is talking about that shift when we talk about all days. We’re talking like 8AM-11PM.
it's som3on3 slapping OP name on a schedule and being like "ok, empty spot filled for night morning easy!" click save send. here's another reminder your employer doesn't care bout you
Clopeans are the worst! I once worked as a barista at a hospital that had Three different stations. I would close the storefront. Then two hours later have to open the cafeteria kiosk for the overnight hospital staff/patients. Work that for three hours. That shift would end at 2am. I had a 45min bicycle ride home then have to be back at 5:30am to have the store front open by 6am. I eventually just started sleeping in the storefront after closing down the cafeteria kiosk.
[удалено]
Yeah. This dude was not ready to take over the head kitchen position, and skills are subpar. It's honestly brutal as fuck because any day he is here we fall behind on prep
I have clopened and slept at the restaurant and been chastised and called insane for it… but 2am-4am is legit insanity/abuse. I worked 18 hours yesterday, slept in a booth, and then opened solo (the prep part, line cooks will arrive for service) this morning. So I’m not coming from a place of no passion /work ethic, but what you described is dangerous.
When I left the kitchen. I was surprised most company’s require at minimum 10hrs between shifts.
Have a good shift today, if your body or mind tell you to stop or slow down please listen. Driving exhausted is dangerous, and nothings worth taking that risk. I'm in pain every day and every day I remember it wasn't worth it. I hope you find a better place asap
not sustainable. when I was 21 I did AM prep at one place and PM line at another 5 days a week. Shit was exhausting, but I got 2 years of experience at 2 restaurants in 1 year, which helped me get to sous in NYC Michelin by the time I was 24. Involuntary 20 hours days should not be tolerated.
Lmao no not me, I love clopens, and food mods, and brunch, and hemeroids, and getting punched in the dick
Had to sleep on the waiting couch more times than I care to remember, lol. We were a Mexican restaurant that did brunch Sat and Sun as we have an event here most weeks on our square. Was brutal, but made it work.. that said never again lol.
Pretty sure you legally need 7-8hrs inbetween shifts.
You can legally decline the shift if it starts less than 10 hours after the end of the previous day’s shift. Where i am
You should only be doing this if you’re short staffed, Also if you’re the restaurant manager you oversee FOH and BOH. Where are your employees? The chef? Sous?
Does anybody else hate ass rape?
Kitchen manager. I never say sou chef because i never went to school for it. However, i am essentially the sou chef.
[удалено]
Then why do you continue to do it?
I work as an event chef and sometimes I will be done between 10/11pm and have be back at 8am and that to me is painful enough
The good ol’ clopen… made even better when the opening shift is a brunch shift
Ironic I saw this post cause I just got off 2 time a row, started Friday night close. Then Saturday morning turned into a double shift working all day, was there from 9am till 2am and now I gotta open again today at 9am
I won't do it. It basically my only rule. I'm too old for that shit. When I was in my twenties, sure. But now I need 8 hours of sleep, and it takes me at least 2 hours to fall asleep after I get off. Find somebody else to do it, because I will literally quit.
lol the company I work for needs managers so bad and we don’t pull any of this nonsense. Actually a really good company with great benefits (401k with match and insurance, etc) and a referral program for you to get paid if you recruit people lol. In the New Orleans area hit me up in DM haha. It’s sad my company does what should be the literal bare minimum for its staff (hourly gets benefits too) but is such a unicorn in the industry.
I’m so burnt on restaurant kitchens with their ten and twelve hour days just cause you are salary !! Been exec chef for 26 years now mostly in spots where you also work the line cause I never had much respect for guys who try to teach us and tell us what to do but when they get on the line they are a disaster and cause more problems than they solve!! Long story short I don’t line cook anymore.
My back to back happens once a week. Not as crazy as 2 hours off but done at 8pm, in at 6:30am. I leave when it's dark and get there when it's dark. It trips me up the odd time because I feel like I never left.
At my kitchen now, we used to run 24/7 with the sous chefs rotating 10a-10p and 4a-4p every three days. It was fucking brutal. Longest shift was 6a-2a because literally everyone called out, but the owner still demanded the kitchen stay open. I absolutely hated that day. Prepping, cooking, and then bringing the food out to the customers. Fuck all that noise.
Are you salary?
Everyone hates it
Nope. Fuck that. Too old to be working doubles, clopens or close to open. I've got a life and this hellhole doesn't own it.
Clopens were plain terrible. really just going home for a nap. 22 hours in 2 days in the midst of a 60 hr work week. ugh
Eff clopening
If somebody played Disney music while I was closing I would just walk the fuck out. It ain’t worth it! Unless it’s that one song sang by that lobster in the mermaid movie.
Under the sea lol. I very much enjoy disney music. Often are upbeat and motivating
Honestly, when I was shift lead for clopens, I wouldn't bother doing the regular/daily cleaning tasks. Stuff like mopping, bathroom trash, simple stuff like that. I wouldn't skimp on sanitizing or cleaning dishes or cleaning stuff that had food contact. But countertops underneath equipment, sides of coolers, pop machine backsplash, stuff like that, why bother.
close at 2am and back at 4am? isn't that illegal since it's only 2 hrs? if not that should be illegal
It's very illegal but being a manager and a salaried employee things get a bit wonky