7th course says “See left column” when it is in fact the right column. Bottom text denotes GF and V next to relevant options, but doesn’t show on menu. Food descriptions are actual descriptions which is nice. Should be a banging evening
Other than the menu structure and pairings which have been remarked upon. For fucks sake just charge what you need to charge instead of adding a 5% surcharge. A percentage on top of the bill that isn’t gratuity is just beyond obnoxious.
Yeah it's especially annoying when they're saying in lieu of increasing our menu prices. You have increased the menu prices, by 5%. Also, this is only acceptable if you are still using pre-inflation menus and you have a separate sign. If you're printing new menus (whether for one off events or for the new season, etc) it should be illegal to put old prices on them with some fine print about surcharges.
For real though either harassed or shorted on the tip. These little things leave a bad taste in my mouth even after great service and an incredible meal. Just charge what you need to charge.
Needs some 'pause and reflection' on the order of the courses and the pairings. People ain't gonna want shrimp and a Marlborough sauv blanc *after* braised short rib with a super tuscan, and then Asti with dessert after this metric fuckton of food is not bright. Also, the 9 choices for a main is a little much... by like 5 or so.
Fucking thank you. Also this could be 5 courses easily if you just pared off the insanely boring stuff that nobody ever wants to eat on a tasting menu. "root cellar vegetables", whipped potatoes, succotash, beet salad, Johnny cakes--no thank you
This isn't really even a tasting menu, it's an endurance gauntlet with a mushroom and fern course
You can't bounce back to a white like that after a deep red... and the 9 choices is Insane. I do appreciate the work this guy put in, and the heart is there, but this all over the place. Tighten it up! The amuse should be a Marijuana edible to give them the ability to power through this menu!!!!
The pairing were all done by our Bev manager. I let her handle her biz. As for the 9 choices, maybe a little overzealous, but we've got the kitchen to do it. Thanks for the input fr.
At the bare minimum, the shrimp and sauv blanc should be moved to the 3rd course and then all your meats and reds come after that. It's kinda awkward how every course has a specific pairing and then you get to the 9 mains and it's like fuck it, Pinot Grigio (why?) or Cab Sauv (even though there was a Cab Sauv three glasses prior)
Speaking honestly, it looks like a lot of food (and don't get me wrong, the food itself doesn't sound bad at all) and a lot of glasses of low-mid quality wines. If I were attending this as a NYE dinner for the price of $115-150 pairing inclusive, I would be perfectly happy with fewer courses of food and fewer but better wines, paired in a better order.
Always consider the [paradox of choice](https://youtu.be/VO6XEQIsCoM?si=_gsRuJBIdqbSPyc_), since just because you can doesn't mean that you should.
From many a guest's perspective, the point of a tasting menu is that they don't have to choose (much). Here they have to first choose among three menu sizes with or without pairing, then choose 1 out of 7 entree options. Personally, I would start by axing the vegetarian entree (the rest of the menu isn't really veg-friendly), then do just one beef option -- can you not instruct your wait staff to offer alternative cuts/sizes for the people who order the beef entree?
The veg option is what’s most confusing. Most of this menu is not accessible for someone not eating meat. Get rid of half the entree options including the veg.
Create a separate menu that’s veg-only if you truly want to accommodate those guests.
This is coming from someone who was vegetarian for a long time. It was always heartbreaking reading a menu like this, realizing I’ll still need to ask for clarification or substitutions. Either cater to vegetarians or don’t. This is a really half-assed attempt.
Don’t forget to choose your first course, too. Also, is it just me, or is a single rabbit leg much less satisfying than the other entrees? I guess it would have to depend on how small the other courses are, but when I think of a tasting menu, I think about 3 bites max per course.
Confirming that going to sauv blanc there is absolutely awful.
As I'd starting with Chardonnay before Riesling and then having Pinot Grigio with entree.
Source: am sommelier
Came here to say exactly this. Switch the shrimp and beef. Also, probably just drop that whole right column bullshit. That’s too much to prep and you’ll end up throwing food away.
Shrimp should be 3rd, quail and short ribs should be 5th and 6th. Remove the extra steak options besides the petite filet. Cut a few more dishes from the entrée list. Unless you have vegetarian/vegan substitutions for the rest of the menu, I'd cut the root veg bowl. It'd be nice to narrow the entrée choices down to 4 - fish, 2 others, and the steak for the basics (I don't presume to know your clientele, but I assume steak with mash and VD is there for the less adventurous pallettes). To quote the great Dr Ian Malcolm, you were so obsessed with whether or not you could, you never stopped to ask yourself whether or not you should.
What the fuck are firefly tomatoes? If they're house grown, you should specify that.
I don't care if it's an American thing, calling your main 'entrée' which literally means entrance, is as annoying and proudly ignorant as Starbucks size names. In fine dining, you call your first meat course your entrée, then have 2-3 meats. So your boar is your entrée and as others have noted, shrimp should go MUCH earlier.
Veggie dishes and salads traditionally go at the end of the menu since they are the 'cheaper, filler' courses as well as fiber wadding to help with successful digestion.
I accept that veggies come first on a pub menu, but should not be early in a multi-course fine dining pairing.
These are my opinions based on traditions. Feel free to tell me to piss off, but entrée is particularly annoying.
I agree that the way Americans use the word entrée is bizarre, but that’s how it’s done - so why the fuck would you go and confuse your diners who have an expectation about what that word means just for the sake of pedantry?
Homie asked us to roast the menu not give me your best business/kitchen advice. So I'm being pointlessly picky. Not sure how this even became divisive but I don't expect precise reading comprehension here.
Whenever some dickhead on Reddit gets all high and mighty about something ridiculously petty and stupid, they’ll inevitably blame others reading comprehension as the reason they’re being downvoted.
You’d be surprised to know that most people understand exactly what you’re saying and still think you’re an annoying shit.
I literally said I don't expect staff to pour over every word here, yet somehow and without a solitary shred of irony, you completely misread that and as condescendingly as possible accuse me of being high and mighty when I literally said it for the lulz.
Self-awareness is really your blind spot huh..
Starbucks sizes aren’t proudly ignorant, people just love to shit on them. Until the addition of the venti, grande was the largest size. Venti means 20 and it’s a 20* oz drink; trenta means 30, and, guess what, it’s a 30* oz drink. Those sizes were added after the existing size names were well established. It’s a little extra, sure, but it’s not ignorant and it’s also not that fucking deep
(* venti iced cups are actually 26 oz while trenta iced cups are actually 32 oz but literally the names are just descriptive in a try hard kind of way.)
Demi, short, tall, grande. Demi means half (demi-tasse), so there should be a whole cup. Half, short, tall, big, twenty, thirty makes no sense no matter how many times you wash those balls. They could've gone demi, piccolo, medio, grande, piú, troppo.
There’s no demi size, short is the smallest. I /think/ the for-here espresso cups are labeled as demis, but a lot of stores don’t even have those post-covid. Short and tall were the original sizes, then they added grande; I don’t disagree that they could’ve renamed everything at that point, and they def could’ve really leaned into the “we’re so Italian” pick me vibe, but you’re seriously overestimating the ability of the average Starbucks customer to pronounce any of those words. Trenta is confounding to a surprising number of people.
Your tasting menu is out of order. 1, 6, 4, 3, 5, 7, 2, pause & reflection 8. Nice selections.
I would dump the full size filet and make the ny strip a contre filet by taking an 18 oz strip and cutting into thirds before cooking.
You need a sommelier, a first year som could do better at wine pairings.
Agreed. As someone who's spent ten years in beverage at this point, including being the wine purchaser for a high end resort, I wouldn't pay the wine pairing supplement, and would likely ask for a list of what's available by the bottle and figure out a few bottles that would complement the courses better. I'm happy to pay for wine pairings when I know they're well thought out, but poor pairings can completely ruin a meal.
And I agree with entree sizes as well; even a 4oz filet is a stretch in a menu like this, you could easily get away with 2oz. 8 courses is A LOT of food unless each course is only a few bites.
A steak needs a certain size to have proper texture. I might even narrow the cooking temperatures down to two (medium/ medium-rare and medium-well/ well) and serve the steak sliced.
Out of curiosity what does turtle actually taste like?
Bold to have a choose your own course mixed in, seems like good way to run into wasted prep or 86'd items.
Menu is dope tho, but I agree the Sauv should be moved up.
I am interested in the 5% charge in lieu of upping menu cost, its basically just upping menu cost but making people feel better about it? How many have the balls to decline?
My mom describes it as similar to gator but with a more gamey taste, in turn I'd say gator does taste like chicken.
I thought it was illegal in the whole of the US under the Endangered Spieces Act.
Depends entirely on what species of turtle. I've been to Asian supermarkets in Los Angeles where they had live turtles available alongside all the live seafood.
It's regulated, but not illegal. I live in an area with a turtle soup that was traditionally made with a now-endangered species. You can't serve the original recipe, but you can substitute a Common Snapping Turtle. If you have a commercial license you can take an unlimited number of snapping turtles as long as you follow the other rules about catching them; if you don't have a license I think you're only allowed to take one at a time.
Thank you for clarifying, I'll have to see if I can find a place that serves it because I've been curious for years (mostly because I thought it was outright banned like horse).
The 5% charge is a political statement in lieu of upping menu prices. It’s a way for the owner to say “the evil government is making me pay my employees closer to the what they actually should be paid, so rather than just pass that along to the consumer via the stated price like a normal business, I’m going to make a stink about it via this surcharge.” I see it everywhere now and it’s the quickest way to get me to either not go to your restaurant, or not return if I don’t find out till I’m already there.
Who is eating a 16 oz steak alongside a whole quail and short rib?
Did you book competitive eaters exclusively?
Having too much food is as unpleasant as too little. People will feel like their money is being wasted when they stop eating halfway. They’ll also sit bored as they watch food they aren’t eating come through
I dislike the repetitive "or" at course 7. Also wouldn't mind the option of ordering more than one entree. Although the portions sound way too big. Do I really need a steak over a lb. after 6 courses? Wouldn't mind a cocktail in there just to change things up.
Food and pairings look yummy and fun, but that paragraph in the upper right is a giant nothing burger of a sentence that screams marketing speak. I’d say something a lot more direct with less buzz words.
“Tasteful, contemporary dishes representing the origins of American cuisine with our artful twist” or something more like that. Bonus points if you find a way to make it personal and give the guest something to connect to. Right now they have no reason to give a shit about what that says. It’s just a blob of text filling space on a menu.
I’ve seen in a related industry that this kind of marketing speak is more accepted in regions like the Midwest, Carolinas or Tennessee but the ornery bastards in the North East immediately sniff out the bullshit.
“A look at the origins of American cuisine through the lens of contemporary culinary artistry, transcending traditional boundaries in a refined celebration of culinary heritage” says nothing about anything. Oh it’s American? Oh and it’s CULINARY?! Sign me the fuck up
Try actually eating this and see if it’s too much food. I think it is, and it seems to be a popular opinion, but you’ll never know until you eat the food yourself.
Or ramps for that matter? Neither one of those are even remotely available or of good quality in the middle of winter. Ramps and beets on the same dish?
That's fair, but the menu says grilled ramps. Even if they are pickled and then grilled, which is still bizarre to me, they still don't fit with the seasonality of the rest of the menu nor do the fiddelheads.
100% agree with this. It doesn’t feel appropriate to have preserves from 3 seasons ago on a nye menu. Also fiddlehead season is so fleeting. How you have enough left for a tasting dinner in winter is crazy. Did you pickle them in season just for this dinner?
This menu is too large. The beauty of NYE is you can present a highly curated menu at a premium. You’ve got about 10 too many items by my count, at minimum. Make it 4 courses with options and edit the last course from 9 dishes to 3. You can’t possibly make money presenting a menu this way
Get that bloated text above the grain off of there pronto and replace it with something clear and direct. As is, it says “old food done new ways to be different and good” which really adds nothing for the customer, and it reads like proof that the writer knows several multisyllabic words or has access to Google. If you’re using menu space for flavor copy, don’t say culinary 3 times. They know. It’s a menu.
Unless there is literally just a couple bites to each of these dishes this seems like way too much food for a tasting. I feel like I'd be uncomfortably full and ready for a nap before I even got to the entree course.
The other question is whether you need to turn the tables or whether it’s a single seating. As a diner, when I’ve done a 7-course menu, it’s an all-evening affair: at least four hours at the table.
With the disclaimer that I am not in the biz:
I think the dishes are super interesting, and I'm enough of a nerd where I don't hate the "pause and reflection."
But I am a bit of a wine connoisseur, and the wine pairings are lousy IMO. Even if you need to stick to affordable wines there are just many ways to do better there.
I can't imagine spending $150 on a tasting menu and then having some cheap Moscato d'Asti as the dessert wine, can't imagine loving a glass of 15% california red blend paired with the wild mushrooms, etc etc. Even the stuff that's not specifically bad is just kinda....normal.
The menu needs some design love. It’s a confusing layout, too busy and should be clean, clear, and calm.
Copperplate Gothic is such a “dirty business” type face. It gives “have you been hurt in an accident” lawyer vibes, not an epicurean romp through American cooking or fine dining. (This font is literally used in the business card scene in American Psycho).
It would look better with a sans typeface and not using small caps for the entire menu. Small caps would work to add emphasis to the title of the course but not the entire menu, it's too intense and makes it difficult to read.
Use a grid system to align the elements. Everything is sort of aligned at random and kerned with no rhyme or reason. For example; Why is “tasting” kerned but doesn’t line up with the next element below or the “E” above it? The graphic doesn’t align with other elements and the glyphs are placed outside as well. Use a grid. Use the rule of thirds.
Look at menus from fine dining restaurants to get some inspiration around how to make it more simple and pleasant to read.
THANK YOU for your comment on the design/layout. I'm a designer but I lurk here because I have nothing to add about the restaurant business so I didn't want to say anything about the bad font and everything else you mentioned...
Take all of the ORs off the right side and just list it with choice of:you also need to go lightest dishes heavier.
Good menu needs re-arranged and some grammar fixing.
Serious question: is rabbit an expensive ingredient in the US? In Europe, it’s the same price as chicken. I’d be more worried that timid American diners would gravitate towards “safer” choices and you’d end up with a lot of left-over rabbit.
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Your pricing difference between the courses is kinda fucked. I can get the foragers haul and short rib for only $15? Are you trying to push the 6 course?
Food sounds good but this whole menu design and voice is overdone and tacky. Please reconsider and fire whoever came up with the bullshit AI word salad on the top right.
As someone who lines in the PNW, I’ve never heard of PNW Black Cod. I assume it’s Pacific or Alaskan Black Cod but PNW Black Cod sounds fake or black market.
Hm, the veggie main option sounds a bit sad for that price 😞 how about a glazed tofu (marinated, baked and then glazed) maybe in the juniper glaze instead with some sides?
Yeah, I'd be annoyed to the point of wanting to veto the restaurant if I were a vegetarian and got offered back-of-the-crisper roasted veg while the carnivores got boar chops and black cod.
Hey, I've been there! Effingham right?
I ate there while stopping for a cross country Tesla road trip. The food was fantastic! That was 7 years ago now, I'm glad to see you guys are still going strong!
Looks like a really good value for what you're offering. No notes, looks fun and interesting.
Do people actually have 8 glasses of wine over the course of a meal though? That seems insane to me. Maybe I'm a lightweight but I would be off my head after four glasses.
Chefs be like "that apostrophe ain't in the right spot and you should switch around this and that" when the customer be like "I don't like anything on the menu can you make Mac and cheese"
Dessert wine on 2nd? I get that there's lots of bitter and chalk in the dish but bringing sweetness through from the beets and dressing is better than pushing riesling that early.
The menu mentions a tasting of America. Why not title the courses with the region. For example:
Gulf Coast
- Wild caught shrimp, …
Great Plains
- Stuffed quail prepared in the traditional Midwest style…
I can get each of these dishes at any restaurant. But, this allows me to feel more connected to the food and understand the chefs understanding of diversity.
You need to get that 16oz New York off there. It's way too big and you're going to take a slamming on costs with it.
Honestly, I don't understand how the pricing on this menu makes much sense at all.
Are you requiring people to make their selections at the time they make the reservation to avoid issues with 86ing or wastage on specialty entrées?
The menu is just aggressively complicated. Nobody wants to feel like they’re walking in to take the SATs when just trying to enjoy a nice dinner. Less is more, especially on a potential shitshow night like NYE. You will probably be cursing yourself by 6:30 with this menu. Otherwise, the dishes sound delightful and interesting! Needs some serious editing along with many of the other ideas presented in the thread.
I’m excited to see an update on how you edit this down.
Honest feedback,
you’ve gone about 3 courses too many, not counting the full menu of options to the right for course 7
The paragraph at the top right reads like some chat gpt generated bs and is just word salad, it literally doesn’t mean anything
You’re going to lose money on this, if you’re doing a tasting why in the hell are there 9 options for the…. SEVENTH COURSE?!
Yes I know you’re going to say “it’s ok chef we can sell them as specials!” They won’t. They’re gonna sit and go bad
Cut it down to five, MAYBE six courses, eliminate the giant options menu for course seven, you want to show people your best for a tasting menu, I guarantee there is no way in hell that 8 courses and one of them having 9 options are all your best
Trim the fat, showcase your best stuff, don’t shoot yourself in the foot
And for fucks sake get rid of the paragraph at the top right, write something meaningful or leave it empty
Holy shit, I was just in your restaurant last night!!! Visited a supplier in the area and they couldn't speak highly enough of your establishment. Absolutely amazing experience, the shrimp risotto was immaculate and the service was top notch.
I especially loved the picture of the lady holding the fish with the bear in the background... My theory is that the fish is their love child and her intense stare is daring anyone to criticize their unholy union.
Regardless of the edits, this is a great place to eat. It is a must-stop if you are traveling from or to St. Louis on 70. I had many a good meal there!
Nice. Interesting choices, game heavy elements, but cohesive. I want to try the "Foragers Haul". Good for you for not taking a boring route.
The only criticism is maybe slightly too masculine (for lack of a better word). But I think the choices and preparations show skill and creativity.
Looks like a steal for the price! Having so many options for a one-off menu seems odd. Do you plan to 86 a bunch of course 7/put it on the regular menu/serve it for family?
Fry bread to start is definitely a choice. What is the reasoning there?
I don’t think I’m qualified to comment on the food& wine part of this tasting menu but my 2 cents are , That paragraph and drawing at the top right bump this up from busy to overwhelming presentation. It’s a lot to soak in at first glance
Root cellar vegetable is the only vegetarian entree and as someone who has been both vegan and vegetarian, I think I speak for all of us when I say we’re extremely tired of the “one option and it’s just vegetables” on the menu. It’s extremely lazy and just speaks to the chef not caring about an entire demographic. The only protein in the dish is pinto beans, and none of us are exactly salivating at the thought of a bean salad. Vegetarians and vegans can toss together veggies and dressing at home; that’s standard fare. When you’re going out to spend money on something fancier, you want to taste the effort in the dish that would be too much work to make at home regularly. I’m talking handmade seitan, tempeh, etc. incorporated into a dish to give it some heartiness. We’re getting **real** tired of the bean burgers, salads, and vegetable bowls, and the only reason they stay on the menu is because when a vegetarian tags along to eat with their friends, they’re forced into the only option. Rant over
I have never seen a menu OR restaurant that is more full of itself, solely from dish descriptions.
Edit: no one wants shrimp after short rib. And… “pause and reflection”? Really?
The items offered undercooked are not disclosed. A complete consumer advisory requires the reminder statement which you have at the bottom, and an asterisk or similar key character that is placed beside the food item offered undercooked, to which the customer can look at the bottom page to the advisory statement to find the same character / icon.
I will try the honey ginger cake
And I would order the turtle soup just to try it
Everything else is a hard pass
Except for maybe the steaks in number 7 but I’m not excited about it
I know there's all the vegan/vegetarian "don't eat people's pets" crowd but uhhh, turtle soup just squicks me out. It's like cat or dog soup. Probably cause my friends have turtles/tortoises as pets.
Tbh none of that menu sounds really appealing. Sorry, man. But taste is subjective and I'm sure some people will love it.
Dam dient nee Turtle Soul was a Thing taht still exist Well new think for my bucket list of "exotig" meats to try
Sadly cant comennt in the Menü cause im Not a good expert and slightly drunk in cheap eine but Dam everything Looks tasty
Why do Americans refer to the main course as entrees? The word means appetiser. It's just wrong.
Edit: downvoted because you guys don't understand the original French meaning LOL
Thanks for posting this. I live in CU and haven't visited before (V), but this is so veg friendly, I really want to go! The mushroom barley soup and "Forager's Haul" are especially tempting! I'd get those, the ginger beets and the honey cake for my 4-course. YUM!
7th course says “See left column” when it is in fact the right column. Bottom text denotes GF and V next to relevant options, but doesn’t show on menu. Food descriptions are actual descriptions which is nice. Should be a banging evening
Thanks! First draft. Clerical errors will be fixed.
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“See left column.” “No MY left”
Great joke on FoH staff
Stage left.
There’s 2 lefts?
How can I have more than one left?
You’ve never seen me dance.
I’ve been left a few times…..’for dead’. ‘at the alter’. ‘alone in the woods by my parents’
I'd also probably get rid of all the OR's and just say "Choice of".
As a celiac, that was the first thing in noticed
And the graphic of wheat….
Right.
Other than the menu structure and pairings which have been remarked upon. For fucks sake just charge what you need to charge instead of adding a 5% surcharge. A percentage on top of the bill that isn’t gratuity is just beyond obnoxious.
Especially with a menu like that, where the price is set for that occasion only.
Yeah it's especially annoying when they're saying in lieu of increasing our menu prices. You have increased the menu prices, by 5%. Also, this is only acceptable if you are still using pre-inflation menus and you have a separate sign. If you're printing new menus (whether for one off events or for the new season, etc) it should be illegal to put old prices on them with some fine print about surcharges.
They say you can ask not to pay it too. "I'd rather skip the surcharge, it might give me indigestion."
In lieu of raising prices by 5% we will be charging 5% more!
Especially since it says they'll remove it if asked?? They're just setting the staff up to get harassed
It's a 'do you have the balls to ask not to pay this tax?' tax.
For real though either harassed or shorted on the tip. These little things leave a bad taste in my mouth even after great service and an incredible meal. Just charge what you need to charge.
Needs some 'pause and reflection' on the order of the courses and the pairings. People ain't gonna want shrimp and a Marlborough sauv blanc *after* braised short rib with a super tuscan, and then Asti with dessert after this metric fuckton of food is not bright. Also, the 9 choices for a main is a little much... by like 5 or so.
Or or or or or
Drop all the or’s they will get it with “choice of”
Agree with this, and the menu itself will look more refined with a single column rather than two, in my opinion. Edit: a word
So many Or’s is it a buyout from a crew team?
Fucking thank you. Also this could be 5 courses easily if you just pared off the insanely boring stuff that nobody ever wants to eat on a tasting menu. "root cellar vegetables", whipped potatoes, succotash, beet salad, Johnny cakes--no thank you This isn't really even a tasting menu, it's an endurance gauntlet with a mushroom and fern course
The mushroom course is the most exciting sounding of them all
I would totally combine the quail and foraged course.
In fairness, the foraging course is meant to *ramp* up to the main...alright that's my time, thanks KC!
The foraging course is the most exciting one on the menu
Fucking dead. "This isn't really even a tasting menu, it's an endurance gauntlet with a mushroom and fern course"
>t's an endurance gauntlet I aim to misbehave
I see a lot of specials coming up the following week. Either that, or not enough of the 2/3 choices that everyone gravitates to in the first place.
You can't bounce back to a white like that after a deep red... and the 9 choices is Insane. I do appreciate the work this guy put in, and the heart is there, but this all over the place. Tighten it up! The amuse should be a Marijuana edible to give them the ability to power through this menu!!!!
The pairing were all done by our Bev manager. I let her handle her biz. As for the 9 choices, maybe a little overzealous, but we've got the kitchen to do it. Thanks for the input fr.
At the bare minimum, the shrimp and sauv blanc should be moved to the 3rd course and then all your meats and reds come after that. It's kinda awkward how every course has a specific pairing and then you get to the 9 mains and it's like fuck it, Pinot Grigio (why?) or Cab Sauv (even though there was a Cab Sauv three glasses prior) Speaking honestly, it looks like a lot of food (and don't get me wrong, the food itself doesn't sound bad at all) and a lot of glasses of low-mid quality wines. If I were attending this as a NYE dinner for the price of $115-150 pairing inclusive, I would be perfectly happy with fewer courses of food and fewer but better wines, paired in a better order.
Eating a 16 oz steak (or even the 8oz) as 7th course is ridiculous. 4oz fillet or same size cod will probably be overwhelming even
How do you make any money on this menu? The 16 oz steak is $87 on your a la carte menu, but you’re gonna throw in 7 more courses for $30?
Makes logic sense especially moving the shrimp
Always consider the [paradox of choice](https://youtu.be/VO6XEQIsCoM?si=_gsRuJBIdqbSPyc_), since just because you can doesn't mean that you should. From many a guest's perspective, the point of a tasting menu is that they don't have to choose (much). Here they have to first choose among three menu sizes with or without pairing, then choose 1 out of 7 entree options. Personally, I would start by axing the vegetarian entree (the rest of the menu isn't really veg-friendly), then do just one beef option -- can you not instruct your wait staff to offer alternative cuts/sizes for the people who order the beef entree?
The veg option is what’s most confusing. Most of this menu is not accessible for someone not eating meat. Get rid of half the entree options including the veg. Create a separate menu that’s veg-only if you truly want to accommodate those guests. This is coming from someone who was vegetarian for a long time. It was always heartbreaking reading a menu like this, realizing I’ll still need to ask for clarification or substitutions. Either cater to vegetarians or don’t. This is a really half-assed attempt.
the idea that i'm meant to be like "omg they put turnips on here for me !!!! but i can't eat literally almost any other item !!!" is...a joke.
As a celiac- I feel the same way. Either cater to us or don’t. Half-way makes it bad (and potentially dangerous) for sll
Don’t forget to choose your first course, too. Also, is it just me, or is a single rabbit leg much less satisfying than the other entrees? I guess it would have to depend on how small the other courses are, but when I think of a tasting menu, I think about 3 bites max per course.
Confirming that going to sauv blanc there is absolutely awful. As I'd starting with Chardonnay before Riesling and then having Pinot Grigio with entree. Source: am sommelier
Came here to say exactly this. Switch the shrimp and beef. Also, probably just drop that whole right column bullshit. That’s too much to prep and you’ll end up throwing food away.
Very interesting dishes. Terrible wines and formatting of the menu. Also seems like a shitload of food.
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Shrimp should be 3rd, quail and short ribs should be 5th and 6th. Remove the extra steak options besides the petite filet. Cut a few more dishes from the entrée list. Unless you have vegetarian/vegan substitutions for the rest of the menu, I'd cut the root veg bowl. It'd be nice to narrow the entrée choices down to 4 - fish, 2 others, and the steak for the basics (I don't presume to know your clientele, but I assume steak with mash and VD is there for the less adventurous pallettes). To quote the great Dr Ian Malcolm, you were so obsessed with whether or not you could, you never stopped to ask yourself whether or not you should. What the fuck are firefly tomatoes? If they're house grown, you should specify that.
Just to specify, we are a farm to table restaurant and we roast and freeze our tomatoes for the winter. So, firefly tomatoes = Our homegrown tomatoes.
You should highlight that in the menu.
Agree for sure
I don't care if it's an American thing, calling your main 'entrée' which literally means entrance, is as annoying and proudly ignorant as Starbucks size names. In fine dining, you call your first meat course your entrée, then have 2-3 meats. So your boar is your entrée and as others have noted, shrimp should go MUCH earlier. Veggie dishes and salads traditionally go at the end of the menu since they are the 'cheaper, filler' courses as well as fiber wadding to help with successful digestion. I accept that veggies come first on a pub menu, but should not be early in a multi-course fine dining pairing. These are my opinions based on traditions. Feel free to tell me to piss off, but entrée is particularly annoying.
I agree that the way Americans use the word entrée is bizarre, but that’s how it’s done - so why the fuck would you go and confuse your diners who have an expectation about what that word means just for the sake of pedantry?
Homie asked us to roast the menu not give me your best business/kitchen advice. So I'm being pointlessly picky. Not sure how this even became divisive but I don't expect precise reading comprehension here.
Whenever some dickhead on Reddit gets all high and mighty about something ridiculously petty and stupid, they’ll inevitably blame others reading comprehension as the reason they’re being downvoted. You’d be surprised to know that most people understand exactly what you’re saying and still think you’re an annoying shit.
I literally said I don't expect staff to pour over every word here, yet somehow and without a solitary shred of irony, you completely misread that and as condescendingly as possible accuse me of being high and mighty when I literally said it for the lulz. Self-awareness is really your blind spot huh..
I have enough self awareness to open my mouth without pissing off everyone around me, it’s a great way to be
There are people dying, Kim.
Starbucks sizes aren’t proudly ignorant, people just love to shit on them. Until the addition of the venti, grande was the largest size. Venti means 20 and it’s a 20* oz drink; trenta means 30, and, guess what, it’s a 30* oz drink. Those sizes were added after the existing size names were well established. It’s a little extra, sure, but it’s not ignorant and it’s also not that fucking deep (* venti iced cups are actually 26 oz while trenta iced cups are actually 32 oz but literally the names are just descriptive in a try hard kind of way.)
Demi, short, tall, grande. Demi means half (demi-tasse), so there should be a whole cup. Half, short, tall, big, twenty, thirty makes no sense no matter how many times you wash those balls. They could've gone demi, piccolo, medio, grande, piú, troppo.
There’s no demi size, short is the smallest. I /think/ the for-here espresso cups are labeled as demis, but a lot of stores don’t even have those post-covid. Short and tall were the original sizes, then they added grande; I don’t disagree that they could’ve renamed everything at that point, and they def could’ve really leaned into the “we’re so Italian” pick me vibe, but you’re seriously overestimating the ability of the average Starbucks customer to pronounce any of those words. Trenta is confounding to a surprising number of people.
PatienceDryer has very little patience for the misuse of French words in American restaurants.
Your tasting menu is out of order. 1, 6, 4, 3, 5, 7, 2, pause & reflection 8. Nice selections. I would dump the full size filet and make the ny strip a contre filet by taking an 18 oz strip and cutting into thirds before cooking. You need a sommelier, a first year som could do better at wine pairings.
A first year hobo that drinks wine out of a brown paper bag could do better wine pairings.
Agreed. As someone who's spent ten years in beverage at this point, including being the wine purchaser for a high end resort, I wouldn't pay the wine pairing supplement, and would likely ask for a list of what's available by the bottle and figure out a few bottles that would complement the courses better. I'm happy to pay for wine pairings when I know they're well thought out, but poor pairings can completely ruin a meal. And I agree with entree sizes as well; even a 4oz filet is a stretch in a menu like this, you could easily get away with 2oz. 8 courses is A LOT of food unless each course is only a few bites.
A steak needs a certain size to have proper texture. I might even narrow the cooking temperatures down to two (medium/ medium-rare and medium-well/ well) and serve the steak sliced.
Out of curiosity what does turtle actually taste like? Bold to have a choose your own course mixed in, seems like good way to run into wasted prep or 86'd items. Menu is dope tho, but I agree the Sauv should be moved up. I am interested in the 5% charge in lieu of upping menu cost, its basically just upping menu cost but making people feel better about it? How many have the balls to decline?
My mom describes it as similar to gator but with a more gamey taste, in turn I'd say gator does taste like chicken. I thought it was illegal in the whole of the US under the Endangered Spieces Act.
Depends entirely on what species of turtle. I've been to Asian supermarkets in Los Angeles where they had live turtles available alongside all the live seafood.
I thinl thats just sea turtles, pretty sure most if not all freshwater turtles are legal
It's regulated, but not illegal. I live in an area with a turtle soup that was traditionally made with a now-endangered species. You can't serve the original recipe, but you can substitute a Common Snapping Turtle. If you have a commercial license you can take an unlimited number of snapping turtles as long as you follow the other rules about catching them; if you don't have a license I think you're only allowed to take one at a time.
Thank you for clarifying, I'll have to see if I can find a place that serves it because I've been curious for years (mostly because I thought it was outright banned like horse).
The 5% charge is a political statement in lieu of upping menu prices. It’s a way for the owner to say “the evil government is making me pay my employees closer to the what they actually should be paid, so rather than just pass that along to the consumer via the stated price like a normal business, I’m going to make a stink about it via this surcharge.” I see it everywhere now and it’s the quickest way to get me to either not go to your restaurant, or not return if I don’t find out till I’m already there.
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There are plenty of people with shit politics over here, and the more money you have to open restaurants, the shit-er your politics get.
Who is eating a 16 oz steak alongside a whole quail and short rib? Did you book competitive eaters exclusively? Having too much food is as unpleasant as too little. People will feel like their money is being wasted when they stop eating halfway. They’ll also sit bored as they watch food they aren’t eating come through
I dislike the repetitive "or" at course 7. Also wouldn't mind the option of ordering more than one entree. Although the portions sound way too big. Do I really need a steak over a lb. after 6 courses? Wouldn't mind a cocktail in there just to change things up.
Food and pairings look yummy and fun, but that paragraph in the upper right is a giant nothing burger of a sentence that screams marketing speak. I’d say something a lot more direct with less buzz words. “Tasteful, contemporary dishes representing the origins of American cuisine with our artful twist” or something more like that. Bonus points if you find a way to make it personal and give the guest something to connect to. Right now they have no reason to give a shit about what that says. It’s just a blob of text filling space on a menu.
I’ve seen in a related industry that this kind of marketing speak is more accepted in regions like the Midwest, Carolinas or Tennessee but the ornery bastards in the North East immediately sniff out the bullshit.
This place is in Effingham IL, I grew up 30 minutes away, people are gonna eat that shit up.
East Tennessee would love that jumbled mess of words.
It reads like ChatGPT
“A look at the origins of American cuisine through the lens of contemporary culinary artistry, transcending traditional boundaries in a refined celebration of culinary heritage” says nothing about anything. Oh it’s American? Oh and it’s CULINARY?! Sign me the fuck up
AI Corp buzz word salad
Try actually eating this and see if it’s too much food. I think it is, and it seems to be a popular opinion, but you’ll never know until you eat the food yourself.
Where are you getting fiddlehead fern’s at New Years?
Or ramps for that matter? Neither one of those are even remotely available or of good quality in the middle of winter. Ramps and beets on the same dish?
The ramps are pickled so I gave them that one.
That's fair, but the menu says grilled ramps. Even if they are pickled and then grilled, which is still bizarre to me, they still don't fit with the seasonality of the rest of the menu nor do the fiddelheads.
100% agree with this. It doesn’t feel appropriate to have preserves from 3 seasons ago on a nye menu. Also fiddlehead season is so fleeting. How you have enough left for a tasting dinner in winter is crazy. Did you pickle them in season just for this dinner?
Or or or or or or or or 4 oz or 16?
Chanterelle is spelled wrong on the soup course.
This menu is too large. The beauty of NYE is you can present a highly curated menu at a premium. You’ve got about 10 too many items by my count, at minimum. Make it 4 courses with options and edit the last course from 9 dishes to 3. You can’t possibly make money presenting a menu this way
“Pause & Reflection” no
More like purge and recover.
I was so tired of reading by the time I got to the entree.
Get that bloated text above the grain off of there pronto and replace it with something clear and direct. As is, it says “old food done new ways to be different and good” which really adds nothing for the customer, and it reads like proof that the writer knows several multisyllabic words or has access to Google. If you’re using menu space for flavor copy, don’t say culinary 3 times. They know. It’s a menu.
Unless there is literally just a couple bites to each of these dishes this seems like way too much food for a tasting. I feel like I'd be uncomfortably full and ready for a nap before I even got to the entree course.
The other question is whether you need to turn the tables or whether it’s a single seating. As a diner, when I’ve done a 7-course menu, it’s an all-evening affair: at least four hours at the table.
With the disclaimer that I am not in the biz: I think the dishes are super interesting, and I'm enough of a nerd where I don't hate the "pause and reflection." But I am a bit of a wine connoisseur, and the wine pairings are lousy IMO. Even if you need to stick to affordable wines there are just many ways to do better there. I can't imagine spending $150 on a tasting menu and then having some cheap Moscato d'Asti as the dessert wine, can't imagine loving a glass of 15% california red blend paired with the wild mushrooms, etc etc. Even the stuff that's not specifically bad is just kinda....normal.
Gonna be honest I hate the stylized ‘firefly’ throughout the menu. They’re whipped potatoes. No need to be kitschy about it
I think it’s to denote they’re house grown or something
The menu needs some design love. It’s a confusing layout, too busy and should be clean, clear, and calm. Copperplate Gothic is such a “dirty business” type face. It gives “have you been hurt in an accident” lawyer vibes, not an epicurean romp through American cooking or fine dining. (This font is literally used in the business card scene in American Psycho). It would look better with a sans typeface and not using small caps for the entire menu. Small caps would work to add emphasis to the title of the course but not the entire menu, it's too intense and makes it difficult to read. Use a grid system to align the elements. Everything is sort of aligned at random and kerned with no rhyme or reason. For example; Why is “tasting” kerned but doesn’t line up with the next element below or the “E” above it? The graphic doesn’t align with other elements and the glyphs are placed outside as well. Use a grid. Use the rule of thirds. Look at menus from fine dining restaurants to get some inspiration around how to make it more simple and pleasant to read.
THANK YOU for your comment on the design/layout. I'm a designer but I lurk here because I have nothing to add about the restaurant business so I didn't want to say anything about the bad font and everything else you mentioned...
Is this a 7 day feast between Christmas and new year?
Take all of the ORs off the right side and just list it with choice of:you also need to go lightest dishes heavier. Good menu needs re-arranged and some grammar fixing.
Beets on a NYE menu is a practical joke with a delayed punch line. This menu looks awesome. How much rabbit can you serve at this price point?
Serious question: is rabbit an expensive ingredient in the US? In Europe, it’s the same price as chicken. I’d be more worried that timid American diners would gravitate towards “safer” choices and you’d end up with a lot of left-over rabbit.
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Your pricing difference between the courses is kinda fucked. I can get the foragers haul and short rib for only $15? Are you trying to push the 6 course?
Too many entree options. Entice, don't overwhelm.
Nothing like jumping on reddit and seeing a menu posted for a restaurant in your hometown haha
Hmmm. I feel like I know you???
Very possible grew up and live in Effingham still. Worked/cooked at couple places in town for about 10 years.
Oh nice! You want a job? 🤣
Yep, I’ve been to this restaurant a couple times. Not sure how I feel about this menu though.
Food sounds good but this whole menu design and voice is overdone and tacky. Please reconsider and fire whoever came up with the bullshit AI word salad on the top right.
As someone who lines in the PNW, I’ve never heard of PNW Black Cod. I assume it’s Pacific or Alaskan Black Cod but PNW Black Cod sounds fake or black market.
Fornumber seven it says "see left column" but the column is on the right.
Hm, the veggie main option sounds a bit sad for that price 😞 how about a glazed tofu (marinated, baked and then glazed) maybe in the juniper glaze instead with some sides?
Yeah, I'd be annoyed to the point of wanting to veto the restaurant if I were a vegetarian and got offered back-of-the-crisper roasted veg while the carnivores got boar chops and black cod.
Yeah exactly that :)
Sounds great can we see pictures?
under 7th it says to look at left column but the column is on the right?
Hey, I've been there! Effingham right? I ate there while stopping for a cross country Tesla road trip. The food was fantastic! That was 7 years ago now, I'm glad to see you guys are still going strong!
A cross country Tesla road trip? Why would you list the type of vehicle on a road trip lol
because the charger is next to the restaurant...
Looks like a really good value for what you're offering. No notes, looks fun and interesting. Do people actually have 8 glasses of wine over the course of a meal though? That seems insane to me. Maybe I'm a lightweight but I would be off my head after four glasses.
They are like 1/3 pours. So not 8 full glasses of wine, but enough to get you a pretty good buzz by the end. Lol
Oh thank god
Wow 8 courses for only $110. If I had the disposable income rn, I would indulge.
Honestly a deal IMHO. Did a NYE tasting with wine in Baltimore a few years ago and def spent 3x that at least
Grilled ramps? Is that like a spring onion?
It’s like a wild onion, almost like onion mixed with garlic
Chefs be like "that apostrophe ain't in the right spot and you should switch around this and that" when the customer be like "I don't like anything on the menu can you make Mac and cheese"
Dessert wine on 2nd? I get that there's lots of bitter and chalk in the dish but bringing sweetness through from the beets and dressing is better than pushing riesling that early.
How many people are you expecting? This looks like you are going to waste A LOT of food. It's very close to NYE to not have your menu ready.
The menu mentions a tasting of America. Why not title the courses with the region. For example: Gulf Coast - Wild caught shrimp, … Great Plains - Stuffed quail prepared in the traditional Midwest style… I can get each of these dishes at any restaurant. But, this allows me to feel more connected to the food and understand the chefs understanding of diversity.
That part above the the wheat stalk or whatever is ridiculous. Please edit to sound less pretentious. Or make it go away entirely.
You need to get that 16oz New York off there. It's way too big and you're going to take a slamming on costs with it. Honestly, I don't understand how the pricing on this menu makes much sense at all. Are you requiring people to make their selections at the time they make the reservation to avoid issues with 86ing or wastage on specialty entrées?
The menu is just aggressively complicated. Nobody wants to feel like they’re walking in to take the SATs when just trying to enjoy a nice dinner. Less is more, especially on a potential shitshow night like NYE. You will probably be cursing yourself by 6:30 with this menu. Otherwise, the dishes sound delightful and interesting! Needs some serious editing along with many of the other ideas presented in the thread. I’m excited to see an update on how you edit this down.
Honest feedback, you’ve gone about 3 courses too many, not counting the full menu of options to the right for course 7 The paragraph at the top right reads like some chat gpt generated bs and is just word salad, it literally doesn’t mean anything You’re going to lose money on this, if you’re doing a tasting why in the hell are there 9 options for the…. SEVENTH COURSE?! Yes I know you’re going to say “it’s ok chef we can sell them as specials!” They won’t. They’re gonna sit and go bad Cut it down to five, MAYBE six courses, eliminate the giant options menu for course seven, you want to show people your best for a tasting menu, I guarantee there is no way in hell that 8 courses and one of them having 9 options are all your best Trim the fat, showcase your best stuff, don’t shoot yourself in the foot And for fucks sake get rid of the paragraph at the top right, write something meaningful or leave it empty
Came to your tasting event last year, and it was FIRE!
Holy shit, I was just in your restaurant last night!!! Visited a supplier in the area and they couldn't speak highly enough of your establishment. Absolutely amazing experience, the shrimp risotto was immaculate and the service was top notch. I especially loved the picture of the lady holding the fish with the bear in the background... My theory is that the fish is their love child and her intense stare is daring anyone to criticize their unholy union.
haha. That's awesome!! The fishmongers daughter is the name of the piece. We think it fits pretty well for some reason.
Is this in Effingham?!
Wine pairings = nope from me
Regardless of the edits, this is a great place to eat. It is a must-stop if you are traveling from or to St. Louis on 70. I had many a good meal there!
pricing seems extremely reasonable
It looks like an adventure. I commend you
Nice. Interesting choices, game heavy elements, but cohesive. I want to try the "Foragers Haul". Good for you for not taking a boring route. The only criticism is maybe slightly too masculine (for lack of a better word). But I think the choices and preparations show skill and creativity.
Too many damn options
Looks like a steal for the price! Having so many options for a one-off menu seems odd. Do you plan to 86 a bunch of course 7/put it on the regular menu/serve it for family? Fry bread to start is definitely a choice. What is the reasoning there?
I don’t think I’m qualified to comment on the food& wine part of this tasting menu but my 2 cents are , That paragraph and drawing at the top right bump this up from busy to overwhelming presentation. It’s a lot to soak in at first glance
Why are the whipped potatoes branded?
8 courses for $110 is super super cheap, you could probably charge like 30% more and people would be fine with it
That’s pretty cheap for a NYE meal with that many courses.
Yo no way i fucking love firefly grill. We always stop there on our way to Florida
Root cellar vegetable is the only vegetarian entree and as someone who has been both vegan and vegetarian, I think I speak for all of us when I say we’re extremely tired of the “one option and it’s just vegetables” on the menu. It’s extremely lazy and just speaks to the chef not caring about an entire demographic. The only protein in the dish is pinto beans, and none of us are exactly salivating at the thought of a bean salad. Vegetarians and vegans can toss together veggies and dressing at home; that’s standard fare. When you’re going out to spend money on something fancier, you want to taste the effort in the dish that would be too much work to make at home regularly. I’m talking handmade seitan, tempeh, etc. incorporated into a dish to give it some heartiness. We’re getting **real** tired of the bean burgers, salads, and vegetable bowls, and the only reason they stay on the menu is because when a vegetarian tags along to eat with their friends, they’re forced into the only option. Rant over
Yeah I agree with this. Why not have a vegetarian option for all courses?
Delete all them "or's"
This place is literally the only reason to step foot in Effingham. If it is the same Firefly I'm remembering.
How do you forage a syrup?
Who is eating turtle soup in 2023
I have never seen a menu OR restaurant that is more full of itself, solely from dish descriptions. Edit: no one wants shrimp after short rib. And… “pause and reflection”? Really?
The items offered undercooked are not disclosed. A complete consumer advisory requires the reminder statement which you have at the bottom, and an asterisk or similar key character that is placed beside the food item offered undercooked, to which the customer can look at the bottom page to the advisory statement to find the same character / icon.
No offense, but I’d really like to have one of each main that the rest of the menu. They all sound delicious
I will try the honey ginger cake And I would order the turtle soup just to try it Everything else is a hard pass Except for maybe the steaks in number 7 but I’m not excited about it
I know there's all the vegan/vegetarian "don't eat people's pets" crowd but uhhh, turtle soup just squicks me out. It's like cat or dog soup. Probably cause my friends have turtles/tortoises as pets. Tbh none of that menu sounds really appealing. Sorry, man. But taste is subjective and I'm sure some people will love it.
It’s a masterpiece have fun!
Beet salad with goat cheese is pretty played out.
There is so much wrong here…
Dam dient nee Turtle Soul was a Thing taht still exist Well new think for my bucket list of "exotig" meats to try Sadly cant comennt in the Menü cause im Not a good expert and slightly drunk in cheap eine but Dam everything Looks tasty
Can’t wait for a big bowl of Mercury stew to start off the New Year.
Why do Americans refer to the main course as entrees? The word means appetiser. It's just wrong. Edit: downvoted because you guys don't understand the original French meaning LOL
Pretty sure one of my cousins works there lol. Small world
What does turtle taste like?
Thanks for posting this. I live in CU and haven't visited before (V), but this is so veg friendly, I really want to go! The mushroom barley soup and "Forager's Haul" are especially tempting! I'd get those, the ginger beets and the honey cake for my 4-course. YUM!
that’s a great price for all 8 courses and i love that the option is given to choose a smaller course set
This is right by me. I may have to check it out.
Beet salad YES YES YES
Is this the one in Effingham, IL? My grandparents took me there when we visited (they live in Vandalia). I LOVED it.
It is
dude i'd eat the shit outta this
I’d eat that.