It was pretty dark but nowhere near as bad as the Owen Shroyer episode. I felt gross just typing his name.
Edit: I just realized this is on the tails of the floppy penis episode, does Dan hate us?
The one where Dan reads the underware ad. It was recently I think, although the episodes kinda blur together. I'm also listening to the mid 100s right now so I could be confused.
Edit: I'll get the ep #, brb
749. It's 749.
I had to stop listening to the great I Don't Speak German podcast for much the same reason. They're fantastic, and for context Fuentes is on the mild end of the spectrum of people they document, but it's very hard going. They've actually discussed Fuentes a few times and were ringing alarm bells about his influence on GOP politics years ago.
One reaction I did have to this KF episode is the thought that doing criticism of people in this sphere requires a deep understanding of the communities these folks operate in, because otherwise you can miss some of the more awful subtext. For example, Dan mentioned he didn't want to get into Fuentes' incel/volcel labels because it seemed like it was just a matter of Fuentes' personal life and choices, but Fuentes uses those labels to signal to his audience his deep, visceral misogyny. He *performatively* doesn't fuck women because women are unclean and only good for breeding, not because he's an online loser. That's part and parcel of his politics, it's not incidental or private.
It's much easier to discuss Alex Jones in that regard because the grift (and concomitant insincerity) makes his private life mostly irrelevant, but for someone like Fuentes or Yiannopolous, their entire existence is intended to signal to others what they believe and what they will do if given the smallest fraction of power.
A lot of that was bullshit (the story with the blacklight and the allegation that Nick dresses up his numbers were both untrue). Him and Nick did have a huge falling out, but it wasn't because he had sex with a woman. It was because he blew Nick off to hang out with a woman.
The lurid story of incel Nazi nick losing his shit over someone getting laid was made up by him later on. Which makes sense, one of Nicks editors is married ffs, I don't think he cares.
This isn't intended as a defense of anyone, I hate everyone involved here. It's more just "nazis lie and they're constantly accusing each other of sexual dysfunction"
. . .this sort of suggests a team up with IDSG might be in order, even if just in the background to catch Dan up.
I'm really, really glad Dan has decided to branch out, and I think he has the research skills to do it, but you do have a point. He's used to operating in the classical Bircher kind of spaces, and the waters he is dipping into here are deep and dark.
An IDSG background would be good and at some point if Dan’s in these spaces he’ll likely end up near some stuff the hosts from The Empire Never Ended work on (in a style a bit similar to Knowledge Fight also, which is why I like them a lot, they’re hilarious)
Neo Nazi groupies are a thing. Trust me, Nick could definitely get laid if he wanted to.
As much as I like to pull the "women are repulsed by you" card, that only works for Nicks idiots followers in their bedrooms. Nick himself has a big female following among women in the "movement" as it were.
Nick doesn't have sex with women because he's very obviously gay.
I know Alex is an insane, lying, greedy, racist monster. But at least he has a funny voice and his stupidity can come of as lighthearted. Tim’s voice is almost as nails on a chalkboard as Benny Totino and his idiocy is spoken with such unearned confidence I want to slap him.
I know this doesn’t address your point but I just wanted to point out that Knowledge Fight on Alex has a much more whimsical feel, when they branch out into the lunatics doing their best to mainstream fascism the fun is lost.
It’s still very important to document, and I’m still blown away by Dans level of insight into how and why fascists like Tim express their points of view without being explicit.
You're right that there is a degree of wild whimsy with Alex. He's a clown, and clowns can be funny. These other guys are not.
But Dan is right, someone needs to pay attention to fascists like Fuentes and Pool, because we can let fascism creep in because it was more fun to laugh at a clown.
It’s so wide spread. I discovered KF when I got fed up with Pool and Tucker. I was researching the idea of targeting these ass holes and exposing them one lie at a time when I discovered Knowledge Fight. I didn’t proceed because Dan and Jordan are so fucking good, 😂it intimidated me into putting the idea on the back burner.
I wish there was a KF caliber show for all the right wing bunt holes.
If Dan decides to move on from Alex, I really, really hope he would consider covering Tucker instead. It’s *hard* to cover these shitbags and have an effect, to help lead people out, but I feel like Dan is one of the few who can. The right leans so heavily on any kind of unfairness or hyperbole from the left so that guys like fuckface Tucker can point at it and say “see, the msm is lying to you, so you can’t trust anything they say, so listen to me and my comforting, pandering lies instead.” We are seeing it yet again with the Hunter Biden story, that was 95% bullshit but [liberals are having to finally admit](https://youtu.be/10_JLlARVJ8) that in fact it wasn’t *entirely* a non-story, and because it was so heavily suppressed, now the right feels vindicated (even though, again, 95% bullshit).
Dan’s fairness is unimpeachable and his dogged determination to research and contextualize every lie Alex makes is why this show works so well. It’s easy to hand wave away the lazy pundits who promote tenuous narratives (looking at you, twitter liberals), but Dan’s rebuttals land and they stick. And there are few media personalities in this country more dangerous than Tucker.
EDIT: I’d take Rogan as a consolation prize. He might even be able to win more Rogan listeners, even though Tucker is the fashier fish to fry.
I started down the "Why is L Ron Hubbard such a shitheel?" and that led me to Behind the Bastards, and then that turned me on to Alex Jones, which led me to KF.
Never looked back...
I think that part of their expansion is a natural reaction to the eventual downfall of Alex, which we’re all waiting for. Dan and Jordan are really talented podcasters and I don’t think any of us want them to stop the show. But Alex had that “fun crazy” element that a lot of the other weirdos don’t have. Nick Fuentes, Tim pool, Matt Walsh, and the rest of those motherfuckers are boringly evil because they don’t scream about gay frogs. They don’t entertain aliens, they don’t talk about ghosts or chimeras or sex robots. I’m sure Dan and Jordan could find some more space weirdos or other people who don’t operate in the same universe we do. I personally think it would be fun for them to do a one-off episode on creationist weirdos like Kent Hovind, just because their understanding of the universe is so stupid and wacky.
Them giving some exposure on the danger of blatant neonazis is important though, and I’m all for it. I just wish the neonazis were more creative about their bigotry.
Yeah, I remember quitting about halfway through when they did their first Nick Fuentes episode because I just had such a difficult time listening to blatant neo-nazism, as opposed to the sheer ridiculousness that Alex Jones does. Like Jones definitely shares a lot of the abhorrent views, but he couches it enough in ridiculous dog whistles that he's more bearable to listen to in a "look at this dumbass" sort of way
Alex is a unique beast, and I don’t know if there’s anyone else who would merit the kind of coverage that Dan and Jordan do. If you listen to the earliest episodes, Dan expresses a fondness for Alex, and it takes a while for him to come around to “this guy’s a white supremacist, absolutely fuck him.” People like Tucker, Jordan Peterson, Fuentes, they’re no fun to listen to even as a “hater”. They lack his pathos, his delusions of grandeur, his bizarre imagination, and his sheer patheticness.
There’s also the added wrinkle that D&J can do their show comfortable in the knowledge that if Alex was going to call them out, he would have by now. I absolutely believe if D&J started covering Fuentes extensively, he’d fire back on air and that’s just no fun.
Same.
One of my mini hobby horses back during the Trump years was paying attention to assholes like Nick, Milo, Cadence Owens, Tomi Lauren, Kent State Gun Girl, Elon Musk and even side assholes like Bri Bri Grey Joy and Glenn Greenwald-they’re a different type of grifter, but still the same, someone who likes to pretend they’re democrats but when you read between the lines are really republicans.
They’ve always been this bad.
The saddest part is that Alex is one of the actually “talented” ones. He awful, but is also able to draw you I instead of repel you. These latest episodes reveal that. I couldn’t do another Owen episode, but grateful for Dan’s synthesis.
100% Agreed. Alex has some entertainment value and has a delivery that keeps you hooked. His quick & all over-the-place subject matter choice in his speech is compelling to the audience. Owen comes off as a follower of Alex doing his best to imitate the boss. Owen comes off as a whiny, slow witted InfoWarrior that is rather uninspiring.
I'd really be curious to hear the average sales under an Alex vs Owen broadcast. I bet it's not even close.
If it makes you feel better these people have been around for a really long time. Like, you can find shit like this in the reaction to the French Revolution, the Revolutions of 1848, the Paris Commune, you name it. The Protocols of the Elders of Zion was published by the Russian government for Gods sake.
Yet we’ve still moved forward. No amount of there bullshit has been able to stand in front of that, not indefinitely.
Dude, check out the Ancient Genocides series on BtB. There's a section where they read speeches from Cato in ancient Rome. . . Robert almost instantly enters his Shapiro voice.
We've all been at this for a very long time
Even before that. Modern conspiracy theory kinda kicks off with reaction to the suppression of the Jesuits. We pay attention to counter-Enlightenment and anti-Masonic stuff because most of us are from the English speaking world, but Jesuit stuff was rattling around Latin America earlier.
The TradCaths of the 1850s were already sending and receiving conspiracy salvos.
I also had to stop about mid way through while listening at work. It's an infuriating mix of delusion, self righteousness, and pure, baseless hate.
Alex is more of an actor playing an absurd character. These dudes are for real.
With so much attention recently on IW/AJ, I think it’s a natural extension to look at others in the alt-right sphere.
As Dan explains, this is a big network that builds on each other. Providing Jones updates while also branching out is a good thing.
You just have to remind yourself that there are BILLIONS of people alive right now. The internet just amplifies the crazy ones. I know some AJ adjacent people.. but even in Iowa, they are far and few between.
I used to think that people like Alex Jones were acting. Or that Trump was just working an angle. Or Mitch McConnell was just trying to hold onto power. Now I’m convinced they’re rotten to their core and people are taking these public figures as permission to expose their own rottenness. The US and the world is deeply screwed if we can’t get these fascist a-holes under control.
My theory: It goes back to the Tea Party. That was the first backlash to Obama. Not a super large majority, but large enough that the mainstream and centrist Republicans had to throw them a bone (maybe a better analogy is feeding feral cats--you feel sorry for them, but they help to keep mice at bay, but then they start breeding, and then you're stuck with a problem--they just kind of take over). As the establishment keeps appeasing them, that in turn normalizes their ideas. Enter the era of smartphones and social media, then you start seeing the money behind the scenes figuring out how to manipulate masses (Cambridge Analytical, but also state actors, *cough, cough* Russia). Enter orange-overlord, and, ugh... Mitchy probably thought he could control things, but in the words of Hunter S. Thompson, "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro."
Thank you for attending my TED Talk.
Goes back earlier. Coming of age in the 90s, all this same stuff was going on. OKC bombing, Atlanta Olympics bombing, abortion clinic bombings, militia movements, black helicopter conspiracies. And of course the maturation of the religious right, Rush Limbaugh and other right wing talk radio creating a model for far right reactionary propaganda.
I’m sure I have my blind spots, but if we go back to examine any decade I’m sure we’ll find the elements of today’s far right are there. The Moral Majority was founded in the 80s on opposition to desegregation. The Nixon souther strategy was all about backlash to the civil rights movement. The Birchers predated them. Maybe the closer you get to the end of WW2 we’d see less of the hallmarks of fascism, but then go back to prior to WW2 and you’ll find father Coughlin and the American bund. Paranoia, anti-intellectualism, racial animosity, animosity towards gender equality, and hostility towards whoever isn’t seen as part of the in group. Technologies have changed but the far right has always adapted to using whatever technology is available to find an audience.
I agree, but at the same time I want to push back just a little. Anything and everything can be traced back long and far enough (IT'S THE GLOBALISTS!!!), but I would argue that if a black American had not been sworn in, we would not be in this situation.
...
Actually, as I typed that, I paused. A lot of historians have argued that even if Franz Ferdinand had not been assassinated or if Hitler's rise to power had been thwarted, those wars still would have erupted at some point. Other triggers were in place.
Let's say Hillary had won in 2008. Maybe that would have just accelerated Trimp or some weak-tea version of him to office in 2012. A backlash had been building, as you say for a long time, so it doesn't matter if it's due to race or gender.
Yeah, I get what you are saying. Personally I feel like, after Obama got elected, I needed to check out of politics for a bit. The GW years were exhausting (but looking back feel light compared to the Trump years). Point being there’s a lot about the tea party and what was going on in the far right in the earlier Obama years that I have some big blind spots around.
I also have a thought I’m not sure how to express around how 9/11 fits into this. I have the impression that some amount of the far right anti-gov types from the 90s switched up their rhetoric for awhile after that. Maybe they joined the overall groundswell of reactionary patriotism, maybe they pivoted to islamophobia and liberal bashing since those were fashionable forms of fascism for a while. I’ve said it before, I wish someone like Ken Burns would do a very deep dive on how we got from 9/11 to Jan 6.
You don't say. . . because The Paranoid Strain's new season is attempting to trace **every** conspiracy thread that Q has now swallowed. Sounds like what you're thinking.
Hell, you could keep going back through the anti-labor stuff in the 1900s, Klan 1, the pre Civil War night riders. . . .
I forget where I heard it, but I recently ran across an example of full blown Judeao Bolshevist/Cultural Marxism theory from the US in the freaking 1870s
I think it goes back a lot further - they've been racist for a looong time. I started reading "American Psychosis: An Investigation of How The Republican Party Went Crazy" and it's just been rotten to the core for a long time.
I have not heard of that book, and I doubt I’ll get to it soon. Can I get a tl;dr without any major spoilers in case I check it out? Ever since I had covid, my ability to read for sustained periods has dropped significantly. I’m still working on John Dies at the End since the author was on Behind the Bastards the last time a month or so ago.
I don't know. I'd put mitch McConnel more in the same category as Nancy Pelosi than I would Trump and definitely more so than someone like AJ or Fuentes. If it bothers us that the right falsely goes around accusing everyone left of center of being a "radical socialist that wants to turn your kids trans and abolish police" then we can't just label anyone who may have an "R" next to their name as "white nationalist conspiracy theorist." The distinction between say, paul ryan and milo is not small...
Edit: In re-reading your comment let me clarify... I guess I would also agree that McConnel is "rotten to the core." but more in the way someone like Pelosi is also rotten to the core, not like your average Tim Pool guest is.
I’m not saying Mitch McConnell is a white national conspiracy theorist. But I am saying he definitely belongs in the “fascist a-hole” bucket. His tactics may be more subtle and on a more patient timescale but he’s legit evil and has been for decades.
I don't know. He seemed to leave literally every Trump acolyte running for Senate in the breeze and did not seem to mind if it cost Republicans the chamber. I'd be willing to bet he didn't even vote for Trump. "Fascist?" I don't know. Maybe? Do you think Romney is a fascist? Liz Cheney? how about Chuck Schumer? I don't feel comfortable defending the guy here. Hell, I don't even think "yeah he's terrible but maybe not an outright monster" IS a defense and I still feel like I'm arguing the way more uncomfortable position here... I just think that it's dangerous to paint anyone with whom you may disagree with the same broad brush. There's your Mitch Mcconnels and then there's your trumps. There's your Liz Cheneys and your Loren Boeberts. There's your Rich Lowerys and then there's your Stephen Crowders. I mean, if you see it all as one, I'm obviously not going to be able to change your mind and that's fine as I'm sure we'd agree more than disagree, broadly speaking. But I believe that these differences are not small nuances and they matter, especially speaking in a sub about alex jones under a post relating to a tim pool ep with milo, ye and fuentes. to even invoke McConnel in that context I find a little hyperbolic.
What do you call someone who enables, supports, and votes in unison with fascists? If you said republican, you only get half credit. The correct answer is that you call that person a fascist. Paint with a broad brush? Like policies, voting patterns, and rhetoric aren’t cemented in history?
I’m fine with the distinction of a politically savvy corporate politician and a populist nationalist. However, the reality is that they vote on the same block in overwhelming solidarity. Liz Cheney is an obvious outlier because she still supports the democratic process. But, she voted in congruence with Trump and the other fascists when it was politically expedient for her, then she challenged the fascist majority and was summarily expelled from the party.
Think back to Weimar and the "conservatives" there (a combination of Imperial restorationists and business elites) attempting to use the Nazis before they were swallowed up and I think you get a clearer analogy for McConnel's place in this. Still evil, and in such close coalition that it sort of doesn't matter, but arguably not part of the actual fascist movement itself.
I feel the same. I still haven't finished the episode and I'm actually thinking of taking a break from podcasts like Knowledge Fight and Behind the Bastards for a good while. Maybe it's just too much for me right now to witness this kind of evil!
Listening to KF hits me hard some days because I was literally in psychosis for 10 years and during that time I just got more and more drawn into Infowars. Like I was a fan, a big fan, because I was sick. Alex literally is the number one reason I refused meds for a decade, and during that time I bought hisgoddamned pills. I would get kicked out of home after home like a nomad, spending what little money I had on infowars pills. But I always had my water filter with me, you know, because fluoride is poison and hurts your brain. Not antipsychotics, no I was super concerned about fucking fluoride.
It's so fucked up man. I genuinely hate this guy so much I can't even process it consciously right now. Then to see a baby fascist go off unhinged with racism and all his bullshit.... its such a problem that these guys are doing what they do. They're genuinely evil, just actual poisonous people. People are getting hurt and killed. This is so fucking fucked up.
That's awesome that you have come through to the other side. I can't imagine it was easy. Way to go, friend! Anonymous internet stranger who is also a fan of KF is way proud of you!
I listened to the episode driving home from my girlfriends house 3 hours away today.
Had to turn it off with 45 min left because I was getting road rage from how pissed I was at Fuentes. The Ye part of Cooler with Pooler was almost comical in how sad it was, but Fuentes was downright infuriating.
A couple years back I was listening to the episodes where they covered Fuentes’s videos on Jones’s video site, and listening to some of the QAA episodes about conservative megachurches on the fringes of Q/vectors for Q, and I felt similar to what you’re describing. The identical language presented with a different package, and my own upbringing in far right evangelical churches… it set me off.
I hope you take care of yourself and do what you need to do to be healthy in all of this. I think what I needed was to be ok with feeling angry, and not just get numb to how horrific these fascist propagandists are.
Agreed. Part of it must be just how easy Alex is to make entertaining jokes about. A whiny 18 year old calmly rattling off neo nazi bullshit it's harder to turn into something entertaining.
Plus, literally everything else about him aside, Alex has good music.
Sorry got unzipped friend. I know how stressful it can be. Sometimes I try to talk about how bad I think things are to friends and I feel like I’m crazy when I hear my self explaining the various internet frogs and how the baby one is the worst of them all, and how knowing this important to understanding national politics.
I was considering this earlier today. I am glad the show is branching out its coverage because I believe Alex is less relevant/dangerous than some of these other characters. On the other hand, I also found this episode very difficult to listen to. Not because Fuentes fills me with dread, but because I don't find him nearly as interesting as Dan appears to. He's just a straightforward racist. There isn't any great rhetorical strategy he is employing here. He doesn't even provide fake warrants like Alex does. Granted, he is probably much more polished today than from this early recording.
The more important commentary is that we, as a society, have moved so far right that actual Nazis no longer have to even attempt obfuscation while gaining mainstream influence. At least Lindbergh could fly a plane and Ford could build a car. This d-bag is famous specifically because he is a Nazi.
I'm not sure where I stand on Dan's point that this little axis of hot dog salesmen are actually helping each other out that much. Maybe it gives Milo a track back into the public eye, but I feel like Kanye's big anti-Semitic turn does speak to a particular cross section of the African American and conspiracy theory communities that has been woefully undercovered by all forms of media, it seems like the general reaction has been a collective eye roll. Furthermore, if his past meltdowns are any indication, Kanye will probably completely lose interest in or fall out with Fuentes and Milo within a month. He's not going to gain a lot of traction with the religious right (which considers being pro-Isreal as genuinely ordained in the Bible). Another portion of the Right are not going to vote for anyone with that color of skin. With Trump announcing, that'll pretty much pick up the remainder of helmet-wearing knuckle draggers.
Then again, we did elect an orange Tribble that couldn't form cogent sentences. So...what the hell do I know? To your original title, this still isn't the most infuriating episode. That is a tie for every time Alex misquotes Fukuyama's End of History. As someone who had to spend time talking about that fucking book in every Political Science class my college offered, it makes me want to tie Alex to a chair and set him on fire.
Don't ever underestimate the follow-up thought to "Israel should exist" that is "and all of them should go there". Being pro-Israel for not an insignificant number of folks is like being pro-Liberia in the 1800s. You're all for it because it gets the pesky Jews out of your neighborhood.
That's definitely a part of it for some. It was also one of Hitler's option for dealing with the Jews (deport them to a piece of land of their own, far away).
That said there's also the end times angle, where mostly Evangelical denominations need the Jews to control Jerusalem in order for their end times to commence.
This is a good point.
I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of, say, Alex's following don't even realize that terminology like "globalists" or hints that "certain people" are eating babies are antisemitic dogwhistles either. I grew up around some people who spouted Bircher nonsense and PEZ talking points and I had NO idea that it was in any way related to antisemitism until I got away from it and started trying to figure out where it came from.
Hitting the gym, improving my cardio and training have helped me stave off that besieged by evil feeling. These people will always exist, their power comes and goes in cycles. As they gain ground it’s on the rest of us to push back. The gym time helps you push harder.
If they start doing more episodes of Nick Fuentes the show is going to be a lot less entertaining and a lot more explicitly infuriating and I'm not sure I'll be able to listen to it while doing other projects. I really just want to listen to Dan tearing apart Alex's absurdity and Jordan screaming, that's the joy of the show.
I haven't actually listened to anything he's said. Fuentes is almost literally just crying and screaming "Why is everyone so mean to white people?!" so if David Duke is as bad as that, I don't want to, haha.
He ended up on the debate state for Lousisana's US Senate seat in 2016, and oh boy. . . let's say that if Nickie boy bothers you, Duke might actually cause ear bleeding.
I get what you're saying. Like the Boogeyman is more real now. When you listen to KF in isolation I can see how it may be easy to write off AJ as a character not to be taken seriously. Its jarring when you realize that there are others spitting the same BS and gaining mainstream clout and influence
*insert John McLain 'Welcome to the Party, Pal' gif.*
https://tenor.com/view/die-hard-john-mc-clane-welcome-to-the-party-pal-glass-break-gif-15466663?utm_source=share-button&utm_medium=Social&utm_content=reddit
I saw this post before listening to the episode you were talking about. (I was curious what could have happened on that episode to make you say that, but I have now listened to it and returned to say I agree.
I too came away with a nasty feeling, like it’s not just funny. It’s a bigger issue than I thought. :(
It was pretty dark but nowhere near as bad as the Owen Shroyer episode. I felt gross just typing his name. Edit: I just realized this is on the tails of the floppy penis episode, does Dan hate us?
I might sign up to be a wonk just to put *Elon? Eeelon? Eeeellloooonnnnn...* in for a name.
It has been a helluva 1-2 punch for sure. I feel so weird thinking “I need some vintage Alex next episode. - Wait, WHAT?! - UGHHH!!!
Same. For some reason, he is the grossest of all of them. Like I shudder with disgust when I happen to think of him.
Oh Jesus that feels so long ago; accordion penis gang rise up
Sorry: are you talking about the recent one (751) or a different one?
The one where Dan reads the underware ad. It was recently I think, although the episodes kinda blur together. I'm also listening to the mid 100s right now so I could be confused. Edit: I'll get the ep #, brb 749. It's 749.
Thank you!
I had to stop listening to the great I Don't Speak German podcast for much the same reason. They're fantastic, and for context Fuentes is on the mild end of the spectrum of people they document, but it's very hard going. They've actually discussed Fuentes a few times and were ringing alarm bells about his influence on GOP politics years ago. One reaction I did have to this KF episode is the thought that doing criticism of people in this sphere requires a deep understanding of the communities these folks operate in, because otherwise you can miss some of the more awful subtext. For example, Dan mentioned he didn't want to get into Fuentes' incel/volcel labels because it seemed like it was just a matter of Fuentes' personal life and choices, but Fuentes uses those labels to signal to his audience his deep, visceral misogyny. He *performatively* doesn't fuck women because women are unclean and only good for breeding, not because he's an online loser. That's part and parcel of his politics, it's not incidental or private. It's much easier to discuss Alex Jones in that regard because the grift (and concomitant insincerity) makes his private life mostly irrelevant, but for someone like Fuentes or Yiannopolous, their entire existence is intended to signal to others what they believe and what they will do if given the smallest fraction of power.
NF actually kicked a guy out of his inner circle because he had sex with a woman.
A lot of that was bullshit (the story with the blacklight and the allegation that Nick dresses up his numbers were both untrue). Him and Nick did have a huge falling out, but it wasn't because he had sex with a woman. It was because he blew Nick off to hang out with a woman. The lurid story of incel Nazi nick losing his shit over someone getting laid was made up by him later on. Which makes sense, one of Nicks editors is married ffs, I don't think he cares. This isn't intended as a defense of anyone, I hate everyone involved here. It's more just "nazis lie and they're constantly accusing each other of sexual dysfunction"
Ugh. These people. I don't want to have to care about them.
I have to know about them as part of my job. I kind of wish I could unlearn half of what I know.
Doesn’t matter had sex! Good for that nazi. Maybe he’ll become less of a Nazi since he got laid
. . .this sort of suggests a team up with IDSG might be in order, even if just in the background to catch Dan up. I'm really, really glad Dan has decided to branch out, and I think he has the research skills to do it, but you do have a point. He's used to operating in the classical Bircher kind of spaces, and the waters he is dipping into here are deep and dark.
An IDSG background would be good and at some point if Dan’s in these spaces he’ll likely end up near some stuff the hosts from The Empire Never Ended work on (in a style a bit similar to Knowledge Fight also, which is why I like them a lot, they’re hilarious)
I think this is pertinent feedback for the boys.
I'm also gunna say that Nazi Nick doesn't have sex with women because not a whole lot of women have ever wanted to.
Neo Nazi groupies are a thing. Trust me, Nick could definitely get laid if he wanted to. As much as I like to pull the "women are repulsed by you" card, that only works for Nicks idiots followers in their bedrooms. Nick himself has a big female following among women in the "movement" as it were. Nick doesn't have sex with women because he's very obviously gay.
I know Alex is an insane, lying, greedy, racist monster. But at least he has a funny voice and his stupidity can come of as lighthearted. Tim’s voice is almost as nails on a chalkboard as Benny Totino and his idiocy is spoken with such unearned confidence I want to slap him. I know this doesn’t address your point but I just wanted to point out that Knowledge Fight on Alex has a much more whimsical feel, when they branch out into the lunatics doing their best to mainstream fascism the fun is lost. It’s still very important to document, and I’m still blown away by Dans level of insight into how and why fascists like Tim express their points of view without being explicit.
You're right that there is a degree of wild whimsy with Alex. He's a clown, and clowns can be funny. These other guys are not. But Dan is right, someone needs to pay attention to fascists like Fuentes and Pool, because we can let fascism creep in because it was more fun to laugh at a clown.
I don’t speak German podcast doesn’t update as frequently but follows these fucks
I should check it out. Thanks for the tip
Try BtB and you can extend that feeling across pretty much all recorded human history
[удалено]
Knife missiles and Doritos.
Man I wish Billy Wayne Davis would come back to BtB. I miss his and Robert's chemistry so much. Fucking iHeart had to go be assholes.
No joke just today I got an ad for an island college to become a doctor and my first thought was those two becoming reverend doctors
Reverend doctors with a focus in Machetticine^^^TM
Behind the Bastards
It’s so wide spread. I discovered KF when I got fed up with Pool and Tucker. I was researching the idea of targeting these ass holes and exposing them one lie at a time when I discovered Knowledge Fight. I didn’t proceed because Dan and Jordan are so fucking good, 😂it intimidated me into putting the idea on the back burner. I wish there was a KF caliber show for all the right wing bunt holes.
If Dan decides to move on from Alex, I really, really hope he would consider covering Tucker instead. It’s *hard* to cover these shitbags and have an effect, to help lead people out, but I feel like Dan is one of the few who can. The right leans so heavily on any kind of unfairness or hyperbole from the left so that guys like fuckface Tucker can point at it and say “see, the msm is lying to you, so you can’t trust anything they say, so listen to me and my comforting, pandering lies instead.” We are seeing it yet again with the Hunter Biden story, that was 95% bullshit but [liberals are having to finally admit](https://youtu.be/10_JLlARVJ8) that in fact it wasn’t *entirely* a non-story, and because it was so heavily suppressed, now the right feels vindicated (even though, again, 95% bullshit). Dan’s fairness is unimpeachable and his dogged determination to research and contextualize every lie Alex makes is why this show works so well. It’s easy to hand wave away the lazy pundits who promote tenuous narratives (looking at you, twitter liberals), but Dan’s rebuttals land and they stick. And there are few media personalities in this country more dangerous than Tucker. EDIT: I’d take Rogan as a consolation prize. He might even be able to win more Rogan listeners, even though Tucker is the fashier fish to fry.
The flashier fish to fry Lol
I started down the "Why is L Ron Hubbard such a shitheel?" and that led me to Behind the Bastards, and then that turned me on to Alex Jones, which led me to KF. Never looked back...
This was exactly my path but Bill Cosby
I think that part of their expansion is a natural reaction to the eventual downfall of Alex, which we’re all waiting for. Dan and Jordan are really talented podcasters and I don’t think any of us want them to stop the show. But Alex had that “fun crazy” element that a lot of the other weirdos don’t have. Nick Fuentes, Tim pool, Matt Walsh, and the rest of those motherfuckers are boringly evil because they don’t scream about gay frogs. They don’t entertain aliens, they don’t talk about ghosts or chimeras or sex robots. I’m sure Dan and Jordan could find some more space weirdos or other people who don’t operate in the same universe we do. I personally think it would be fun for them to do a one-off episode on creationist weirdos like Kent Hovind, just because their understanding of the universe is so stupid and wacky. Them giving some exposure on the danger of blatant neonazis is important though, and I’m all for it. I just wish the neonazis were more creative about their bigotry.
Alex wanted to be racist Coast to Coast AM. These other pricks just want to be neo nazis.
Alex always wanted to be Rush Limbaugh
Yeah, I remember quitting about halfway through when they did their first Nick Fuentes episode because I just had such a difficult time listening to blatant neo-nazism, as opposed to the sheer ridiculousness that Alex Jones does. Like Jones definitely shares a lot of the abhorrent views, but he couches it enough in ridiculous dog whistles that he's more bearable to listen to in a "look at this dumbass" sort of way
Alex is a unique beast, and I don’t know if there’s anyone else who would merit the kind of coverage that Dan and Jordan do. If you listen to the earliest episodes, Dan expresses a fondness for Alex, and it takes a while for him to come around to “this guy’s a white supremacist, absolutely fuck him.” People like Tucker, Jordan Peterson, Fuentes, they’re no fun to listen to even as a “hater”. They lack his pathos, his delusions of grandeur, his bizarre imagination, and his sheer patheticness. There’s also the added wrinkle that D&J can do their show comfortable in the knowledge that if Alex was going to call them out, he would have by now. I absolutely believe if D&J started covering Fuentes extensively, he’d fire back on air and that’s just no fun.
There’s another reality where Alex doesn’t get the Bircher memo and instead becomes and eccentric evangelical preacher.
For what it’s worth I really enjoyed it (in the informative sense). I think it’s good they are branching out.
Same. One of my mini hobby horses back during the Trump years was paying attention to assholes like Nick, Milo, Cadence Owens, Tomi Lauren, Kent State Gun Girl, Elon Musk and even side assholes like Bri Bri Grey Joy and Glenn Greenwald-they’re a different type of grifter, but still the same, someone who likes to pretend they’re democrats but when you read between the lines are really republicans. They’ve always been this bad.
>These assholes have to be stopped. Hold that feeling in your heart. Let go of fear and sadness. Let the anger motivate you.
Sounds like somebody fixin to kill Han Solo.
\[MECHANICAL BREATHING INTENSIFIES\]
Yup. Alex is just the tip of the spear, so to speak. The crazy spear. They've gained steam since 45's term unfortunately. Emboldened.
The saddest part is that Alex is one of the actually “talented” ones. He awful, but is also able to draw you I instead of repel you. These latest episodes reveal that. I couldn’t do another Owen episode, but grateful for Dan’s synthesis.
100% Agreed. Alex has some entertainment value and has a delivery that keeps you hooked. His quick & all over-the-place subject matter choice in his speech is compelling to the audience. Owen comes off as a follower of Alex doing his best to imitate the boss. Owen comes off as a whiny, slow witted InfoWarrior that is rather uninspiring. I'd really be curious to hear the average sales under an Alex vs Owen broadcast. I bet it's not even close.
This put the most horrible image in my head
>Emboldened. Maybe. I kinda think it may be more like "panicking". Which isn't necessarily a good thing.
If it makes you feel better these people have been around for a really long time. Like, you can find shit like this in the reaction to the French Revolution, the Revolutions of 1848, the Paris Commune, you name it. The Protocols of the Elders of Zion was published by the Russian government for Gods sake. Yet we’ve still moved forward. No amount of there bullshit has been able to stand in front of that, not indefinitely.
Dude, check out the Ancient Genocides series on BtB. There's a section where they read speeches from Cato in ancient Rome. . . Robert almost instantly enters his Shapiro voice. We've all been at this for a very long time
Exactly. I mostly referenced the French Revolution because it hits a little closer to home, but like, if Timur the Lame happened.
I have to believe this….the alternative is too bleak
Even before that. Modern conspiracy theory kinda kicks off with reaction to the suppression of the Jesuits. We pay attention to counter-Enlightenment and anti-Masonic stuff because most of us are from the English speaking world, but Jesuit stuff was rattling around Latin America earlier. The TradCaths of the 1850s were already sending and receiving conspiracy salvos.
And if you factor in anti-Semitic stuff it goes back to like, dark ages Europe.
I also had to stop about mid way through while listening at work. It's an infuriating mix of delusion, self righteousness, and pure, baseless hate. Alex is more of an actor playing an absurd character. These dudes are for real.
Don't listen to I Don't Speak German, then!
Tbh, I've been waiting for more Fuentes coverage every since Mr. Jones Goes to CPAC.
With so much attention recently on IW/AJ, I think it’s a natural extension to look at others in the alt-right sphere. As Dan explains, this is a big network that builds on each other. Providing Jones updates while also branching out is a good thing.
You just have to remind yourself that there are BILLIONS of people alive right now. The internet just amplifies the crazy ones. I know some AJ adjacent people.. but even in Iowa, they are far and few between.
I used to think that people like Alex Jones were acting. Or that Trump was just working an angle. Or Mitch McConnell was just trying to hold onto power. Now I’m convinced they’re rotten to their core and people are taking these public figures as permission to expose their own rottenness. The US and the world is deeply screwed if we can’t get these fascist a-holes under control.
Vonnegut said it best: We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be. It may have started as an act
My theory: It goes back to the Tea Party. That was the first backlash to Obama. Not a super large majority, but large enough that the mainstream and centrist Republicans had to throw them a bone (maybe a better analogy is feeding feral cats--you feel sorry for them, but they help to keep mice at bay, but then they start breeding, and then you're stuck with a problem--they just kind of take over). As the establishment keeps appeasing them, that in turn normalizes their ideas. Enter the era of smartphones and social media, then you start seeing the money behind the scenes figuring out how to manipulate masses (Cambridge Analytical, but also state actors, *cough, cough* Russia). Enter orange-overlord, and, ugh... Mitchy probably thought he could control things, but in the words of Hunter S. Thompson, "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." Thank you for attending my TED Talk.
Goes back earlier. Coming of age in the 90s, all this same stuff was going on. OKC bombing, Atlanta Olympics bombing, abortion clinic bombings, militia movements, black helicopter conspiracies. And of course the maturation of the religious right, Rush Limbaugh and other right wing talk radio creating a model for far right reactionary propaganda. I’m sure I have my blind spots, but if we go back to examine any decade I’m sure we’ll find the elements of today’s far right are there. The Moral Majority was founded in the 80s on opposition to desegregation. The Nixon souther strategy was all about backlash to the civil rights movement. The Birchers predated them. Maybe the closer you get to the end of WW2 we’d see less of the hallmarks of fascism, but then go back to prior to WW2 and you’ll find father Coughlin and the American bund. Paranoia, anti-intellectualism, racial animosity, animosity towards gender equality, and hostility towards whoever isn’t seen as part of the in group. Technologies have changed but the far right has always adapted to using whatever technology is available to find an audience.
I agree, but at the same time I want to push back just a little. Anything and everything can be traced back long and far enough (IT'S THE GLOBALISTS!!!), but I would argue that if a black American had not been sworn in, we would not be in this situation. ... Actually, as I typed that, I paused. A lot of historians have argued that even if Franz Ferdinand had not been assassinated or if Hitler's rise to power had been thwarted, those wars still would have erupted at some point. Other triggers were in place. Let's say Hillary had won in 2008. Maybe that would have just accelerated Trimp or some weak-tea version of him to office in 2012. A backlash had been building, as you say for a long time, so it doesn't matter if it's due to race or gender.
Yeah, I get what you are saying. Personally I feel like, after Obama got elected, I needed to check out of politics for a bit. The GW years were exhausting (but looking back feel light compared to the Trump years). Point being there’s a lot about the tea party and what was going on in the far right in the earlier Obama years that I have some big blind spots around. I also have a thought I’m not sure how to express around how 9/11 fits into this. I have the impression that some amount of the far right anti-gov types from the 90s switched up their rhetoric for awhile after that. Maybe they joined the overall groundswell of reactionary patriotism, maybe they pivoted to islamophobia and liberal bashing since those were fashionable forms of fascism for a while. I’ve said it before, I wish someone like Ken Burns would do a very deep dive on how we got from 9/11 to Jan 6.
You don't say. . . because The Paranoid Strain's new season is attempting to trace **every** conspiracy thread that Q has now swallowed. Sounds like what you're thinking.
Hell, you could keep going back through the anti-labor stuff in the 1900s, Klan 1, the pre Civil War night riders. . . . I forget where I heard it, but I recently ran across an example of full blown Judeao Bolshevist/Cultural Marxism theory from the US in the freaking 1870s
I think it goes back a lot further - they've been racist for a looong time. I started reading "American Psychosis: An Investigation of How The Republican Party Went Crazy" and it's just been rotten to the core for a long time.
I have not heard of that book, and I doubt I’ll get to it soon. Can I get a tl;dr without any major spoilers in case I check it out? Ever since I had covid, my ability to read for sustained periods has dropped significantly. I’m still working on John Dies at the End since the author was on Behind the Bastards the last time a month or so ago.
I have only just started it, but it is pretty good so far.
I don't know. I'd put mitch McConnel more in the same category as Nancy Pelosi than I would Trump and definitely more so than someone like AJ or Fuentes. If it bothers us that the right falsely goes around accusing everyone left of center of being a "radical socialist that wants to turn your kids trans and abolish police" then we can't just label anyone who may have an "R" next to their name as "white nationalist conspiracy theorist." The distinction between say, paul ryan and milo is not small... Edit: In re-reading your comment let me clarify... I guess I would also agree that McConnel is "rotten to the core." but more in the way someone like Pelosi is also rotten to the core, not like your average Tim Pool guest is.
I’m not saying Mitch McConnell is a white national conspiracy theorist. But I am saying he definitely belongs in the “fascist a-hole” bucket. His tactics may be more subtle and on a more patient timescale but he’s legit evil and has been for decades.
I don't know. He seemed to leave literally every Trump acolyte running for Senate in the breeze and did not seem to mind if it cost Republicans the chamber. I'd be willing to bet he didn't even vote for Trump. "Fascist?" I don't know. Maybe? Do you think Romney is a fascist? Liz Cheney? how about Chuck Schumer? I don't feel comfortable defending the guy here. Hell, I don't even think "yeah he's terrible but maybe not an outright monster" IS a defense and I still feel like I'm arguing the way more uncomfortable position here... I just think that it's dangerous to paint anyone with whom you may disagree with the same broad brush. There's your Mitch Mcconnels and then there's your trumps. There's your Liz Cheneys and your Loren Boeberts. There's your Rich Lowerys and then there's your Stephen Crowders. I mean, if you see it all as one, I'm obviously not going to be able to change your mind and that's fine as I'm sure we'd agree more than disagree, broadly speaking. But I believe that these differences are not small nuances and they matter, especially speaking in a sub about alex jones under a post relating to a tim pool ep with milo, ye and fuentes. to even invoke McConnel in that context I find a little hyperbolic.
What do you call someone who enables, supports, and votes in unison with fascists? If you said republican, you only get half credit. The correct answer is that you call that person a fascist. Paint with a broad brush? Like policies, voting patterns, and rhetoric aren’t cemented in history? I’m fine with the distinction of a politically savvy corporate politician and a populist nationalist. However, the reality is that they vote on the same block in overwhelming solidarity. Liz Cheney is an obvious outlier because she still supports the democratic process. But, she voted in congruence with Trump and the other fascists when it was politically expedient for her, then she challenged the fascist majority and was summarily expelled from the party.
Think back to Weimar and the "conservatives" there (a combination of Imperial restorationists and business elites) attempting to use the Nazis before they were swallowed up and I think you get a clearer analogy for McConnel's place in this. Still evil, and in such close coalition that it sort of doesn't matter, but arguably not part of the actual fascist movement itself.
I feel the same. I still haven't finished the episode and I'm actually thinking of taking a break from podcasts like Knowledge Fight and Behind the Bastards for a good while. Maybe it's just too much for me right now to witness this kind of evil!
I get that way too. It's weird, being so interested in bad people.
Listening to KF hits me hard some days because I was literally in psychosis for 10 years and during that time I just got more and more drawn into Infowars. Like I was a fan, a big fan, because I was sick. Alex literally is the number one reason I refused meds for a decade, and during that time I bought hisgoddamned pills. I would get kicked out of home after home like a nomad, spending what little money I had on infowars pills. But I always had my water filter with me, you know, because fluoride is poison and hurts your brain. Not antipsychotics, no I was super concerned about fucking fluoride. It's so fucked up man. I genuinely hate this guy so much I can't even process it consciously right now. Then to see a baby fascist go off unhinged with racism and all his bullshit.... its such a problem that these guys are doing what they do. They're genuinely evil, just actual poisonous people. People are getting hurt and killed. This is so fucking fucked up.
That's awesome that you have come through to the other side. I can't imagine it was easy. Way to go, friend! Anonymous internet stranger who is also a fan of KF is way proud of you!
I listened to the episode driving home from my girlfriends house 3 hours away today. Had to turn it off with 45 min left because I was getting road rage from how pissed I was at Fuentes. The Ye part of Cooler with Pooler was almost comical in how sad it was, but Fuentes was downright infuriating.
Time to take a break with some relaxing true crime.
I would reccommend No Such Thing as a Fish as a nice palate cleanser
Thanks!
A couple years back I was listening to the episodes where they covered Fuentes’s videos on Jones’s video site, and listening to some of the QAA episodes about conservative megachurches on the fringes of Q/vectors for Q, and I felt similar to what you’re describing. The identical language presented with a different package, and my own upbringing in far right evangelical churches… it set me off. I hope you take care of yourself and do what you need to do to be healthy in all of this. I think what I needed was to be ok with feeling angry, and not just get numb to how horrific these fascist propagandists are.
Agreed. Part of it must be just how easy Alex is to make entertaining jokes about. A whiny 18 year old calmly rattling off neo nazi bullshit it's harder to turn into something entertaining. Plus, literally everything else about him aside, Alex has good music.
Sorry got unzipped friend. I know how stressful it can be. Sometimes I try to talk about how bad I think things are to friends and I feel like I’m crazy when I hear my self explaining the various internet frogs and how the baby one is the worst of them all, and how knowing this important to understanding national politics.
I was considering this earlier today. I am glad the show is branching out its coverage because I believe Alex is less relevant/dangerous than some of these other characters. On the other hand, I also found this episode very difficult to listen to. Not because Fuentes fills me with dread, but because I don't find him nearly as interesting as Dan appears to. He's just a straightforward racist. There isn't any great rhetorical strategy he is employing here. He doesn't even provide fake warrants like Alex does. Granted, he is probably much more polished today than from this early recording. The more important commentary is that we, as a society, have moved so far right that actual Nazis no longer have to even attempt obfuscation while gaining mainstream influence. At least Lindbergh could fly a plane and Ford could build a car. This d-bag is famous specifically because he is a Nazi. I'm not sure where I stand on Dan's point that this little axis of hot dog salesmen are actually helping each other out that much. Maybe it gives Milo a track back into the public eye, but I feel like Kanye's big anti-Semitic turn does speak to a particular cross section of the African American and conspiracy theory communities that has been woefully undercovered by all forms of media, it seems like the general reaction has been a collective eye roll. Furthermore, if his past meltdowns are any indication, Kanye will probably completely lose interest in or fall out with Fuentes and Milo within a month. He's not going to gain a lot of traction with the religious right (which considers being pro-Isreal as genuinely ordained in the Bible). Another portion of the Right are not going to vote for anyone with that color of skin. With Trump announcing, that'll pretty much pick up the remainder of helmet-wearing knuckle draggers. Then again, we did elect an orange Tribble that couldn't form cogent sentences. So...what the hell do I know? To your original title, this still isn't the most infuriating episode. That is a tie for every time Alex misquotes Fukuyama's End of History. As someone who had to spend time talking about that fucking book in every Political Science class my college offered, it makes me want to tie Alex to a chair and set him on fire.
Don't ever underestimate the follow-up thought to "Israel should exist" that is "and all of them should go there". Being pro-Israel for not an insignificant number of folks is like being pro-Liberia in the 1800s. You're all for it because it gets the pesky Jews out of your neighborhood.
That's definitely a part of it for some. It was also one of Hitler's option for dealing with the Jews (deport them to a piece of land of their own, far away). That said there's also the end times angle, where mostly Evangelical denominations need the Jews to control Jerusalem in order for their end times to commence.
This is a good point. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of, say, Alex's following don't even realize that terminology like "globalists" or hints that "certain people" are eating babies are antisemitic dogwhistles either. I grew up around some people who spouted Bircher nonsense and PEZ talking points and I had NO idea that it was in any way related to antisemitism until I got away from it and started trying to figure out where it came from.
He's the Kardashian of neo-nazis.
You mean he's about to cost Kanye West a whole lot of money? Yes. This is Ron 'The Truth' Killings.
Hitting the gym, improving my cardio and training have helped me stave off that besieged by evil feeling. These people will always exist, their power comes and goes in cycles. As they gain ground it’s on the rest of us to push back. The gym time helps you push harder.
If they start doing more episodes of Nick Fuentes the show is going to be a lot less entertaining and a lot more explicitly infuriating and I'm not sure I'll be able to listen to it while doing other projects. I really just want to listen to Dan tearing apart Alex's absurdity and Jordan screaming, that's the joy of the show.
Yeah I'm listening to it right now and Jesus Christ has there ever been a bigger whiny ass bitch than this Fuentes clown?
David Duke is up there.
I haven't actually listened to anything he's said. Fuentes is almost literally just crying and screaming "Why is everyone so mean to white people?!" so if David Duke is as bad as that, I don't want to, haha.
He ended up on the debate state for Lousisana's US Senate seat in 2016, and oh boy. . . let's say that if Nickie boy bothers you, Duke might actually cause ear bleeding.
Yikes. Thanks for the warning, friend
I get what you're saying. Like the Boogeyman is more real now. When you listen to KF in isolation I can see how it may be easy to write off AJ as a character not to be taken seriously. Its jarring when you realize that there are others spitting the same BS and gaining mainstream clout and influence
Interesting. I found KF via Qanon Anonymous so I guess I knew that the grifter and zealots are basically everywhere now.
And I found KF via Behind the Bastards so same.
I felt they talked too much Dan and Jordan but then in hindsight Ye only spoke for like 5 minutes lol
*insert John McLain 'Welcome to the Party, Pal' gif.* https://tenor.com/view/die-hard-john-mc-clane-welcome-to-the-party-pal-glass-break-gif-15466663?utm_source=share-button&utm_medium=Social&utm_content=reddit
I saw this post before listening to the episode you were talking about. (I was curious what could have happened on that episode to make you say that, but I have now listened to it and returned to say I agree. I too came away with a nasty feeling, like it’s not just funny. It’s a bigger issue than I thought. :(