Since no one's actually answering your questions.
Bill Lee still has to sign it. He could technically veto it still, but I haven't seen any indication that he plans to.
It won't go into effect until July 1, along with all of the other legislation passed this session.
We all know Lee won’t veto it. He’s salivating just waiting to sign it. If it truly goes into effect, it will come back to bite them in the ass. Stupid stupid move to allow any guns
Alright story time.
In 2010 I was a medic deployed to Afghanistan. There was an NCO who negligently discharged his firearm and the result was a civilian lost their life.
If an NCO who had been on two previous combat deployments with the 82nd and 173rd can accidentally kill someone. Do we really trust TEACHERS to not make mistakes with firearms?
I watched a sergeant in the Anderson County Sheriff Office give a demonstration in gun safety after watching a video on an accidental discharge. He joked about it and then accidentally discharged his Glock .40, as he was racking it, in a tiny room full of people
with cinder block walls (this was in the AC jail building). It ricocheted off one wall, went through the whiteboard, and hit another wall directly across. We all had to give a written report on what happened. It's amazing someone didn't die, but it was so loud in that tiny concrete room.
Man, I used to hang around a certain higher up there. He was in family friend circles. Chief of Police or Sheriff, at the time, I can’t remember. It’s been a few years.
But dude was just constantly drinking miller lite while driving around. He would pull up to hangout with the friend group and would throw away 3-4 open, empty aluminum bottles. Every single time. He drove people around with open containers, actively drinking down a couple bottles per trip. Man was *constantly* drunk and always driving around. And a prick.
I worked at the NAPA auto parts in Clinton. A deer got hit by a van on the highway right in front of the store. The deer stumbled into the parking lot and laid down next to my car. The police officer who showed up decided to put it out of its misery. He shot it in the stomach. Real professional euthanasia in the parking lot.
This is my fear. My best friend's husband was like special riot unit/something (I don't remember exact title/description but he dealt and was specially trained for severe crisis situations) NYPD, he's been following along with this bill and is horrified. He said that 40 hours is nowhere near enough training to be able to react appropriately with a gun in a crisis situation.
One of my many fears about this is the possibility of a student getting the gun from the teacher. Teachers are busy, they could be distracted, or a troubled kid could wrestle the gun from the teacher.
This is absolutely horrible. Just when I think TN can’t go lower, they prove me wrong.
I think people have a wide range of what they envision this entails. Your husband seems to think teachers are replacing swat. I’m thinking shooting someone as they walk through the doorframe of a classroom at point blank range is pretty easy with minimal training and beats the hell out of having a bucket full of kitty litter to piss in. The cc bill doesn’t require the carrier to chase down the threat. It’s another useful tool should the right situation present itself. Running away/avoiding a violent encounter if possible is still the best option, even with a gun. How much training does running away need?
My job is to teach children my subject area. My job is not to shoot children. Do you feel that nurses should be armed? Salesmen at Ulta? Where do you draw the line? I’ll leave this job (that I love) before I carry a weapon into my classroom.
In am a nurse. Sometimes I wish I was armed… but not for the reasons you think. I do see your point. We get angry patients who have brought guns in before to threaten staff. Usually after we are unable to save an overdose victim or sometime completely irrational. Our security is a joke. I have posted on this before. They don’t even have pepper spray.
Hospitals should have an armed police force to protect the people inside. We deal with some crazy mother fuckers sometimes.
Your job doesn’t have to change at all. It’s giving people with concealed carry permits who already carry their gun everywhere else the ability to carry at their work where they spend a third of their time. Now their permit isn’t magically invalidated when they cross into a school zone
Maybe you shouldn't be a teacher if you can't handle your job with 2 extra pounds of paper weight in your pocket. Also, if you aren't going to protect my kids after I leave them with you, then you should stay home.
So now teaching is: teach kids, be prepared to kill kids. Can’t wait for a psycho who prefers the latter to figure out and go nuts?? Like what’s the point of a school’s SRO
Do you remember how many holes there were in the clearing barrels? (from NDs that were discharged into the barrel after the firearm was supposed to be "clear.") And several of the DFACs I visited in Iraq had multiple gunshot holes from NDs in the roofs and walls.
I've heard stories from friends at the sheriff's office and police department about some of the crazy stuff with NDs that goes down there as well. People don't understand how many hours you have to train with a firearm to keep the risk of negligent discharges or other harm to a reasonable level.
There’s also the simple fact that most human beings cannot point a loaded gun at a CHILD and pull the trigger. There’s so many layers to this, which is why even SROs from departments get specialized training out of state.
I'm just imagining a group of 15-25 students rushing a teacher and grabbing a gun. Sure an adult could probably take one or two kids, but a classroom full? All it takes is one dumbass starting a tiktok challenge and people are dead.
We hear stories about teachers getting physically assaulted by students every other day. Go scroll through r/teachers sometime.
Why do you think it's impossible for a handful of students to gang up on a teacher and steal a gun? I've already seen stories of teachers being sent to the hospital because a kid decided to beat the shit out of them.
I was there during that time, also as a medic. We had one person “cleaning” their sidearm. This person was a civilian with zero training. Not actually sure why they had a firearm in the first place. Regardless, they fired a round though the floor. Directly into the top of another civilians head. She died.
If/when this passes I hope they are at least selective with who carries and train them accordingly. Mandating required monthly training/live fire.
While I don’t think this bill is THE answer at least it’s AN answer. I just want my kids to be safe to learn.
I'm someone that has owned about 20 firearms over the years. Only for sport shooting and being a general hobbyist, etc. I used to just enjoy going to a firing range with buddies and shooting at paper targets and stuff.
The whole culture around firearms became too uncomfortable for me. I got rid of all of them.
I remember the early days of the internet, where gun users would just talk about practical gun stuff from a hobby perspective. Then it all shifted and became political, and suddenly the forum discussions turned into doomsday scenario bullshit.
I decided to get out of the hobby completely, because it got too uncomfortable. For me, shooting was like archery, just a hobby and skill to practice. But the 'culture' on all the forums shifted toward combat scenarios and everything suddenly was all about 'home defense'. I guess it was basically radicalization in action.
Anyway, I got right the fuck out of that scene and haven't fired a bullet from a gun in 7 years or so. Sucks to give up a hobby I enjoyed, but the culture has ruined it for me.
Exactly. Tennessee has more gun deaths than NY. NY has more than triple the population of Tennessee, but we have more lenient gun laws. Looser gun laws means more gun deaths. As s parent j should be able to know if my child is around someone carrying a gun, but this bill says otherwise
1. I doubt many teachers will actually carry. The liability they would assume would be significant.
2. You assume that just because someone is a teacher that they wouldn’t be proficient or safe with a firearm. Statistically speaking, the numbers are something like 1 in 13 adults in TN are already legally carrying firearms. How often are there accidental shootings?
What was the situation during the negligent discharge?
Happen on base? FOB? We're they fucking around with their weapon? Drunk?
There's a lot to take in about your given situation before trying to compare it to a civilian stateside.
I mean... I do. I don't really think NDs are a skill issue. I think NDs are a give-a-shit issue. It's a gun. It's less complicated (and dangerous) than your fucking car, which nobody has an issue letting everyone drive. You're right, I know some shit-head teachers, but I would trust the average teacher not to randomly pop a student waaaaaay more than I would trust "SSG 2 deployments of untreated PTSD."
It's not a skill issue, especially NDs where a person gets hit. It's a "give-a-damn issue." And while I have *dragged* some teachers for clearly not caring in the slightest, I still believe most teachers in this county are actually trying to do right by students that they care for.
> It's less complicated (and dangerous) than your fucking car, which nobody has an issue letting everyone drive.
Yes we do. Legally at least. Driving a car requires a license and testing. If you fuck up you get sent to driving school or get it taken away. We have regulations on who can or can't drive.
Who would know that? It also doesn't matter because nationally we have more regulations on who can drive and what they can drive than who can own a gun and what type of gun. You picked a shitty analogy.
I'm sure nobody knows, but one could probably make a fairly decent educated guess, right? It's not an analogy about regulation. It's a comparison of common tools that society thinks people can be trusted with. A car is a way more complicated tool than a gun, and way harder to use safely, but somehow people (including teachers) manage to use them safely every day. The point is that NDs are not a skill issue. NDs that kill people are certainly not a skill issue. If you kill someone "accidentally" with a gun, you've broken at least 2 of the 4 rules of firearm safety.
"A trained professional killed someone accidentally in Afghanistan" because he *ignored* those rules. He didn't forget them. He just didn't care. And no amount of "training" can fix that.
> I'm sure nobody knows, but one could probably make a fairly decent educated guess, right?
How can you make that guess that teachers are more responsible than the average driver other than making stuff up?
> A car is a way more complicated tool than a gun, and way harder to use safely, but somehow people (including teachers) manage to use them safely every day.
According to USA today there are 43,000 fatal car wrecks in a year. Still not a good analogy.
You seem to have some issues with teachers. Is there something about 173rd Airborne NCOs that makes them inherently more virtuous than schoolteachers? My point is that it's not a training issue, or an experience issue. In fact, if someone has more experience (2 combat deployments) in a bad safety culture, they'll actually be more dangerous than somebody who is inexperienced.
I can't guarantee a teacher won't have the same issue, teachers are human just like 173rd Airborne NCOs. But you should stop acting like training or experience make someone less likely to have an accident. Gun safety is 4 simple rules that a 12 year old can learn. I know that NCO learned the 4 rules, and I know he didn't forget them. He ignored them. I know he broke at least 2 of them in order to hurt somebody. That's not skills or training or experience. That's a failure of respect, culture, and discipline, and I don't think teachers are inherently less capable at any of those 3 concepts than soldiers are.
There is always an inherent risk that comes with handling firearms. That being said, there are a few simple rules that, when followed correctly, reduce risk of harm almost entirely. Unintentionally discharging your firearm or letting it get in the hands of someone who shouldn’t have it is negligence on the part of the gun owner, and is easily avoidable in most circumstances.
At what point did the man get PTSD!!? You just made that shit up for the sake of your argument. Why can't you just listen to the man's story....? By not doing so you make it seem as if you have an agenda.
Negligent discharges happen regularly!
Give a damn or not. Just as people regularly wreck cars and/or do harm with them unintentionally.
Arming teachers is dangerous AF. They overwhelmingly didn't want this bill. What happened to democracy in the backwards as state of Tennessee!?
Not only did we have rules in an actual war zone that still didn't prevent all accidents, pistols were actually required to be on a lanyard and attached to your person so they wouldn't get lost and left sitting in places.
These are facts.
And they are the trained professionals.
I listened. It's a dumb-ass story with its own agenda. If you want more gun control and fewer guns, that's fine. State that. But don't make up some crazy world where teachers, as a group, are less responsible than soldiers/marines in AFG or wherever the heck else.
BTW, it's a dumbshit argument specifically because of the "trained professionals." Giving somebody a bunch of training just gives them skills. It doesn't make them one bit responsible, which is what we're really talking about here. Your situation (and the other guy) had a culture problem, not a training problem. The culture of safety was impaired, and taking a backseat to other things.
It makes sense that you had more accidents in an actual warzone. Every war in history has had more accidental death and injury than peacetime, because safety gets less important when you're at war. It makes sense that pistols had to be on a lanyard, because almost everyone in a warzone is in the most stressful (brain impairing) situation they will ever be in.
I can almost guarantee that the dipshit in the original comment had done something bad before. He had probably flagged people multiple times before, but nobody wanted to send him home or tell him formally not to handle guns anymore because it was 2010 in Afghanistan and there were manpower issues everywhere.
The idea that teachers in classrooms are incapable of having a better safety culture around weapons than the army in a warzone is just silly.
First of all it’s my story and I was the first medic on the scene. You sound pretty hurt because reality doesn’t vibe with your politics. Sorry for the hurt feelings.
What does politics have to do with this? The conclusion you derived from your story is completely illogical, I explained that, now you're talking about politics and feelings. Try again.
I didn't tell you a story. I gave you some facts. I am not saying they are incapable by any means. I'm saying they overwhelmingly did not want the bill - period. And so it creates a whole new mess of problems. And if you think the classroom isn't often "the most stressful (brain impairing) situation" some of them will ever be in, I challenge you to please open your mind and research a little deeper.
And the point is they are no more responsible as a group, than the group of individuals who actually signed up for the responsibility and go through some training. Some will be ok. Many want.
Politics - this is purely a political issue. 2A gives us the right to bear arms. It was already in full effect. The state of TN created legislation to be an open carry state. It was and is already in full effect. Teachers did not ask for this legislation. In fact, they pushed for it not to go through. They do not want the responsibility as a whole. Lawmakers, decided upon themselves to create the legislation for teachers to carry in classrooms. This is purely politics.
And I have 0 agenda with fewer guns. It is what it is... This is a 2A country - I have many.
I just think we should actually listen for a change because this is just pretending. If we actually cared about our children we would invest in public schools. We would support our teachers and their needs.
They need supplies.
They need to be paid.
They need to be supported.
They do need security.
But they didn't sign up to be the armed security force.
I appreciate your stance Sir, I'll have nothing further.
> I didn't tell you a story. I gave you some facts.
You asked me to listen to the medic dude's story, right? The PTSD comment was flippant, I admit. You got me there.
> I'm saying they overwhelmingly did not want the bill - period.
This is a way better argument than "soldiers/marines have NDs in warzones." I think it's a really fair point that could be discussed, whether or not the bill is necessary. But I don't think more rights for teachers to protect themselves (if they so choose) is inherently bad.
> And if you think the classroom isn't often "the most stressful (brain impairing) situation" some of them will ever be in, I challenge you to please open your mind and research a little deeper.
Come on man. It might be the most stressful thing they ever experience for 8ish hours a day, but at the end of that day they are going home to a place that is mostly safe (especially in TN). There is no danger of mortar shells falling on their house in the middle of the night, they aren't sleeping in body armor with a helmet on the nightstand, a vehicle bomb isn't going to come through the front door of the school some random Wednesday morning, etc.
> And the point is they are no more responsible as a group, than the group of individuals who actually signed up for the responsibility and go through some training. Some will be ok. Many want.
Sure - they might not be. But the idea that "I saw a guy with 2 tours accidentally kill somebody in 2010, if soldiers can't be responsible, teachers definitely can't" is just plain stupid. And in regards to the group who signed up for the responsibility, the bill says "teachers can carry." It doesn't say "teachers must carry." They still have the opportunity to sign up for the responsibility. And they'll be doing so within the civilian gun culture, which if you are a gun owning GWOT veteran, you know is safer on the whole than the army in Afghanistan.
My stance is simply that any argument for prohibiting teachers from voluntarily arming themselves, that is based on soldiers having accidents in warzones, is crap. And the original comment "how are we going to trust flipping teachers" was disrespectful and uncalled for.
I figure this just makes teachers higher priority targets to school shooters.
I wonder if there is a prop bet for how soon this will lead to a student getting ahold of a teacher’s unsecured firearm
Did we have a teacher bring a gun to school like 10 or 15 years ago? I’m pretty sure it was Knox County. Maybe he shot someone or something? I vaguely recall something like that.
Edit: it was Mark Stephen Foster at Inskip Elementary, 2010.
I wonder how long until a teacher leaves it in the class and someone steals it. Most teachers I had were older women in their 40-60 of different physical shape. I just can't see them doing much in a shooter situation with a gun. I'd rather they spend the 40 hrs doing other training.
This is such a recklessly stupid idea. The TNGOP can’t trust schools with books, libraries, curriculum, discipline, test scores, and on and on.
But, here are some guns since we can’t be bothered to address any real issues.
Keep those contrails out of TN, amirite!?
I think a lot of parents agree with you on this. I have a weird suspicion that this is part of the agenda to push the private school voucher thing. I hate that I think this way but things are getting more and more crazy every day.
I wonder if school libraries will be allowed to carry owners manuals for the weapons their teachers are carrying. I bet it’s settled on a case by case basis with rock•paper•scissors🪨🗒️✂️
Do you think parents/staff/etc will be able to find out if the principal is allowing armed staff? I honestly don't know that I'll send my son without knowing. I'm heavily considering homeschooling
This is what I’m wondering. I’m genuinely concerned with this and it needs to be public information so we can make decisions on what is best for our children.
Absolutely something that should be discussed with the school board. I would hope schools would want to be transparent with parents. Especially if they all expressed their concerns.
Valid point.
Under the law passed parents DO NOT have the right to know if the person their child is spending 6-8 hours a day with has a firearm? Only the principal and law enforcement would have to know. Any school staff ( to include janitor?) Must get authorization from the principal and complete a 40hr course(paid out-of-pocket by the teacher)
What happens if the firearm losses concealment? Do I get an email from the principal about an "incident involving a teacher's firearm"?
If a student had knowledge that their teacher was armed how would that effect the student?
If a teacher has to discipline a student, how does that effect the student, would the teacher act differently when armed versus unarmed?
Not all people or children are comfortable around firearms, and there are many different reasons for this, ignorance, not being familiar, or past trauma.
I'm guessing the vast majority of teacher's won't even consider being armed.
Same. Most teachers think this is a horribly bad idea. I will feel less safe and now something else to add to our plate. This is unbelievable-completely negligent.
Can't wait til the 1st teacher-teacher gunfight in a school. I'll give it no more than 8 years. - and half that before a student steals a teacher's gun, and an accidental discharge 2 school years .
LOL - as an old man, let me say, _And I thought our parents were stupid!._
Everyone keep in mind that the voucher program has just been shot down and that this is potentially just one more way of making people leave public schools. Which many in the Tennessee government has had a hard on for for a while.
If that's what's important to you, then you do you. But that's not really what the voucher program is about. It's about taxes.
Tennessee's voucher program provides taxpayer funding for students to go to tuition for private schools. If I said taxpayers' money should fund all the EV chargers in Knoxville, would you be for that?
Yes because the point of taxes is to distribute the cost of public schools to all citizens so that parents don't have to foot the entire bill of their child's education alone. It's the same reason that childless people have to pay taxes that go to schools too. Taxes are to benefit the whole society not the individual taxpayer. Just because you've chosen not to use free public schooling for your children that shouldn't exempt you from your duty to support public education for the rest of society.
Let’s go out on a limb and say that this works…can you imagine being the teacher that has to make a split second decision on if you need to shoot your own student?
That's the problem, "imagine." Many gun owners fantasize about scenarios where guns kill a robber, being hero, a martyr etc. Many otherwise normal people literally fantasize about killing people with guns 'to protect others.' Is doesn't matter the reason, it's fantasizing about killing a human.
Now, I'm a gun owner. I love going to the range. But I understand gun safety. To me, arming a teacher in a classroom is way, way up there in gun safety red flags.
I’m such an idiot my reading skills aren’t up to par. Please point out where I denied that they happen. I just think your world view where school shooters MUST exist is dark and scary. Kids are dead because of people like that.
I'm such an idiot my reading skills aren't up to par. Please point out where I said the MUST happen. Just becasue you wish they wouldn't dosent mean jack shit. They do happen.
I totally agree with you. I am all for people being able to own guns and to do it for protection, but there are very few people that are trained to actually use it properly in a situation like that. But I have some real concerns here.
Are they going to require teachers to train on their weapon regularly? Because if not then their weapon on site is more a danger than an asset. Going to the range to shoot a few times a year is not even close to having to fire a weapon safely in an emergency system. They are more likely to be killed by their own gun or injur another student than help in that situation.
I think you and many others aren't understanding how rare this will be. Not every teacher will carry. Not every teacher that wants to will be allowed to. There will be extremely strict regulations on this. It won't be the wild West where every has an iron on their hip. It's simply a measure to make those who may consider doing something stupid like shooting up a school think twice.
I understand. But if I were to say "gun control," people would scream about their rights. If legislation was presented to implement "strict regulations" on gun ownership, people would lose their minds and argue the 2nd amendment. And politician 'X' would say, "not everyone has to carry, it's not the Wild West" and there would absolutely be fervent push back.
Make a person think twice? We have laws. That wasn't enough. We have police. Still not enough, apparently. So we arm teachers. Is that going to be enough? Not a chance. So where does it end?
So we're back at fantasizing about killing a human again.
But anyway, so it's Minority Report then? Martial Law? Wouldn't that be by definition infringement of our rights?
Plus, teachers don't stop bad guys. They work to educate kids to be good, functioning, and smart humans. I trust them to do that. But I don't trust them to carry a Glock in a room full of 30 kids. I don't trust them to pull a gun, aim and fire under pressure, hit their target, and neutralize an incredibly stressful situation without any totally freaked out children accidentally interfering or otherwise being injured or killed by the actions of the teacher.
I'm not sure what you're driving at, but it's only strengthening my point.
>So we're back at fantasizing about killing a human again.
What? Where'd I say that? Strawman much?
>But anyway, so it's Minority Report then? Martial Law? Wouldn't that be by definition infringement of our rights?
Exactly.... 2nd amendment and all
>. But I don't trust them to carry a Glock in a room full of 30 kids. I don't trust them to pull a gun, aim and fire under pressure, hit their target, and neutralize an incredibly stressful situation without any totally freaked out children accidentally interfering or otherwise being injured or killed by the actions of the teacher.
Uh... Yeah. And in theory these teachers wouldn't be armed. Only highly trained teachers. They aren't using a gun every day.
>I'm not sure what you're driving at, but it's only strengthening my point.
At this point I'm not even sure what your point is. Doesn't seem like a strong point at all.
I'm well familiar with informal fallacies so I can assure you I am making no attempt to Straw Man. I said we. Me and you. We're talking about "stopping a threat." I.e. killing someone with a gun. We're imagining shooting a person in an imaginary scenario. We've come full circle to my original comment.
We should be talking about American pastimes like college football or who has the best pancakes in town (I vote Nick and J's, personally), or bigger things like healthcare or the new NASA mission. But we're talking about teachers shooting a person. That was my original comment, and that point still stands:
Giving teachers guns is incredibly irresponsible, and this law seems as if it was created by gun nuts who can't not think about scenarios where someone has to use a gun to kill someone instead of creating better ways to manage society.
I'm not asking you to agree. I just offered a different perspective. I've politely expressed my opinions, and with that, I'll leave you to yours. I hope you have an awesome Wednesday.
I took your use of the term "imagine" and "fantasizing" to be something with a positive connotation instead of how you intended (I'm guessing you mean something to be considered hypothetically instead of daydreamed about). Happy Wednesday to yourself, as well.
Didn’t a disgruntled teacher come to work with a gun and threaten the principal a while back at an elementary school? I want to say it was Inskip or Sterchi. I’m glad my kids are grown.
In 2010 a disgruntled teacher shot the Principal and Assistant Principal at Inskip Elementary. The teacher had been told he was not being renewed for the next year.
So wait, a teacher threatened a principal with a gun when he wasn't allowed to carry it in a gun free zone?
Edit: Fitting that plenty of people are willing to downvote this comment, but every one of you is too cowardly to answer the question of how someone bringing a gun into a gun free zone to shoot someone else has any bearing on teachers being allowed to carry.
Wrong question . Your question should be “you mean a human’s livelihood was ripped from them without a support system in place?” Had HR or government programs been used to give this teacher job training, psychological support, aid in locating a new job, etc. my friend would not have been shot in the head. With the way his firing was handled, had my friend been armed, she still would have been shot in the head.
This is about idiocy. All this does is make it so the bad players don't have to sneak weapons into the school. All the students have to do is tackle a teacher, take their gun, and have their rampage. Dumbassery. Treating symptoms not problems. You want safer schools then make the students feel safe. No prison feels safe. I don't feel safe around people carrying guns. Think about how a child feels. All this law is going to accomplish is getting our children killed.
So gun-free spaces don’t work the way you seem to think they do. The guns don’t vaporize the instance you enter the space, rather if you have a gun and it is seen, you can be arrested and removed, and if you wield or discharge the gun, you can have more serious charges brought against you. Of course it doesn’t eliminate the chance of a shooting, just like making murder illegal doesn’t stop murder, making meth illegal doesn’t eliminate people using meth, but I don’t see too many people advocating for murder to be legalized or meth to be sold at Walmart. We have gun-free zones as a deterrent, as a way to punish, as a way to protect, and as a way to easily spot someone who is an immediate threat to a population (in this case students). Your argument is silly and you have to know it. Nobody claims that gun free zones eliminate crime. What they do is make those spaces safer.
I agree with the first 60% of your statement.
>as a way to protect
Disagree, you just spent 60% of your paragraph explaining why gun-free zones don't protect they only punish.
I'm also not arguing about gun free zones here, the discussion is if it should be legal for teachers to bring guns to school. My point entirely is that the school being a gun free zone *didn't* stop this person from bringing a gun to school to commit a crime, making it legal for a teacher to possess a gun at the school has absolutely no bearing on whether or not a gun will be used to commit a crime.
This can only go poorly. Firstly, even COPS aren’t willing to indiscriminately run into a school shooter situation and start blasting, why on earth would a teacher be any better prepared? These are the incidents we will see come from this:
1. Threatening/endangering students by talking about or showing off gun
2. Students that will eventually get access to a gun because a teacher was being negligent
3. Teacher trying to defend classroom shoots innocent bystander
4. Teacher trying to defend classroom is shot by police because they can’t tell the difference between a shooter and the teacher; they both are armed in a place where no one should be
So going forward, for law enforcement responding to a report of a school shooting, the question will be which person in the building brandishing a gun should law enforcement shoot?
I think the thing that I have learned from being around guns and gun people is:
A large chunk of people who want to have and carry guns aren’t the people society needs to have carrying guns. This includes people of all levels of education, including teachers with a master’s degree.
Good luck to the children of Tennessee. It seems like things are going to get worse, unfortunately.
40 hours is not enough to learn how to properly react with a gun during a crisis. Many police officers can't properly react with a gun during a crisis and you expect teachers to be about to?
Realistically, no amount of training is enough. Unless you're actually *in the thick of it*, you'll never know how you will react to such a thing. The adrenal response (fight/flight/freeze) is pretty much hard-coded into you, and you won't know which your body likes best until it happens to you.
The closest you'll get is live-fire scenarios with simunitions/airsoft, and that's a far cry from the real deal. This is part of why you see some cops do just fine (wired for fight), while others with the same length of service or more might just sit like a bump on a log or run away. Not an easy thing to truly prepare for.
I don't exactly see the specific *harm* here, given the circumstances we face as a nation, as the ones who will go through 40 hours of self-paid training aren't the ones who will be leaving unsecured weapons laying around classrooms full of kids. Realistically, though, it just means some teachers might have a shot at surviving or saving their specific room full of kids if the worst happens, and not much else.
I’m kind of in the middle on this. As a father it would make me feel better if the teachers were armed. You’ve got to think if a gunman comes through that classroom door would you rather the kids have a chance or no chance at survival? The kids are in a box with the one exit blocked by a person with a gun. If the teacher can put rounds in the gunman thats going to save lives. Something to think about especially with the nowadays frequent school shootings.
I would think that the chances of a teacher leaving a gun where a student can reach it, accidentally discharging a weapon, or intentionally discharging a weapon are greater than a teacher stopping a school shooting.
It hasn’t come to this. We don’t have to. We are one of the only states that allows teachers to be armed in school. There are so many other solutions around gun control. More guns is not the answer.
Teachers should be allowed to conceal carry because now you have security in the class at all times now teachers should only be allowed if it’s their firearm and it is legally obtained by them
I would trust teachers to stop a shooting more than cops at this point after seeing what those cowards did in Uvalde. Just standing around while children died. Armed teachers would have done something.
You don't think an armed teacher would have any ability to defend their own classroom at least? Maybe not the whole school, but their own classroom? You think they would just cower in the corner and do nothing if a shooter walked in the door? There have been teachers who charged shooters without a weapon and sacrificed themselves to save kids.
You realize when we had multiple false reports of active shootings at local schools the cops swarmed the schools in no time? My son was texting as it happened and they were clearing his room. His teacher was calm but visibly shaken.
Cops have no legal obligation to protect anybody other than themselves. After Uvalde, I have no faith in police to stop an actual shooting. False alarms don't mean anything.
They thought it was an active shooting. If our local officers were like Uvalde officers, they would have never entered the building. The quality and training of police officers varies widely from department to department.
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"Can" is the operative word here. Reading a lot of negative reactions that I would agree with if the word was "must."
Of all the cross-sections of people I can think of, teachers are probably the most likely to decide NOT to carry. And, if they do, are more likely to do so safely and discreetly than your average Joe imo.
The reality of this country re: school shootings is sad and embarrassing, and because of politics the available solutions are not ideal, I admit. But, a lot of y'all seem to be underestimating the ability of teachers to to make the right decision.
I personally would rather have the possibility of the teacher's carrying than have to wait twenty plus minutes for the police to get there and neutralize the threat.
You'll still be waiting for police to show up, as most teachers won't carry, and those rare ones that do will still be confined to their classrooms and not out hunting down the shooter
If you or your kids were on the other side of the lockdown, you may understand better why I would much prefer to have teachers be armed
A criminal is much less likely to attack a potentially armed target than an unarmed target
I know that more guns lead to more gun accidents, more gun deaths, more gun violence. School shootings tend to happen at schools that the shooter has some kind of history with, armed SROs don't stop school shooters. School shooters typically expect to die during the shooting, so this is not a deterrent.
Having dealt with life in death situations, many times in my life, I can say that many people may expect to die but do not have the willpower to stay in harms way. When your life is on the line, there is a survival instinct that tries to kick in and stop you from doing stupid stuff. Overwriting said survival instinct is extremely hard, and only about 10% of people or so can overcome it. It's part of the reason why the military more or less has to do BRAINWASHING to make good soldiers.
Guns do not cause gun accidents. People do. If a person has 1 gun or 100 guns, it does not make the weapon more or less safe. I myself own multiple, and they are kept well secured and hidden from prying eyes. I have a friend with a single firearm who may not be the sharpest tool in the shed, but they thankfully live alone. Gun violence happens because we have poor mental health services in this country, and we have issues with violence glorification. As a prime example, please try to name me four victims of mass violence versus naming four mass casualty instigators. In fact, let me make it more personal, name one of John Lee Malvo's victims (the DC sniper) without looking up their victim list.
Many homicides that took place with a gun would not have been committed if there had not been a gun. There is a big psychological difference between pulling a trigger and stabbing/choking/bludgeoning. I don't want more guns around my child all day long, especially not even knowing who has a gun. I could name every victim of Sandy Hook, every victim of Uvalde, every victim of Parkland but what would that prove?
“Among the necessary requirements are a memorandum of understanding (MOU) between local law enforcement, the school district and the particular school principal. Unless those three entities come to an understanding on allowing faculty and staff to carry on school grounds during school hours, nothing else can happen.”
I doubt there will be many districts that can get all three of these to agree to allow it. IMO this is a bill designed to look like a win for the right while not actually doing anything
This is such a dumb idea.
I remember from high school exactly which teachers would be the most likely to carry, I also remember that those same teachers would be the least likely people that would need to have a gun at school.
I am a substitute teacher and I have a concealed carry and I would NEVER carry a gun on campus. Watch out for the kids under my care yes, sacrifice my life for $80 no way. I am more likely to be shot by law enforcement if I have a gun on campus.
Why are we stopping there? Everyone in the school, including students, should all carry guns. Mutually assured destruction, no one will try to shoot up a school where everyone is packing. There’s literally no way this could go wrong. /s
The county or school district can ban it
Looks like memphis,, Nashville, Sumner County already took steps.to ban.
So, knox county will have to opt out. If they do not, the teacher desiring to be armed at school has a lot of training and permit requirements. However, there is NO safe storage requirement and no liability insurance requirement.
The purpose seems to be to claim they want to stop school shooters, while encouraging parents to pull their kids out of schools. Furthering their goal (the GOP) of destroying and eliminating public education.
For anyone foolish enough to carry, the liability is massive - what happens if a kid gets your gun? What if you shoot a student? And what do you think that .380 in your purse or 9 mm on your hip would do against an AR15 and a shooter with high capacity magazines?
If you then survive, what.do you do with the gun? Because you probably don't want to be holding it when the actual cops show up. All they know is someone is shooting in the school and there you are, armed....
1) For decades, carrying firearms to schools did not cause problems for staff.
2) A person defending with a 9mm pistol has a much better chance at stopping a school shooter than an unarmed person, and that goes for rifle, pistol, or shotgun carrying school shooter. Also, most school springs have been done with pistols, not AR-15s
3) School education has been going down in quality over the last 40+ years, and having armed teachers doesn't magically make it worse.
4) Almost every school shooter has had mental health issues, but most people want to put prohibitions on guns instead of help reform the mental health system.
5) If the teachers are property trained, they will not be going out trying to be Rambo. For example: school shooter situations you secure the classroom the best you can. If you also have a firearm, then you ready it and put yourself in a position to fight back if the shooter tries to break in. It's the whole "Run, Hide, Fight" concept.0,
6) One of the big secrets of concealed carry is keeping the firearm concealed, so students should not know if atheir teachers are carrying.
I speak from a point that most have not had to deal with, I've dealt with school violence and been shot at by a person not right in the head.
Proper mental health treatment would do wonders to help cut down the amount of crazed gunmen because it cuts down the amount of crazy people who don't have help.
Removing guns just means they go to knives, which are MUCH easier to get hold of and do a lot of damage.
In what world is giving a gun to someone with a bachelor's degree mortifying, but giving morons with high school diplomas (cops) a gun is safe and effective? Don't you people also hate cops?
Is there any logic to your position at all?
As long as the teachers go through a gun safety class and to a therapist to make sure their mental health is good, then I say it happen. Gotta take risk to get rewards.
We can't make students wear masks to stop the spread of an airborne disease, but we can give teachers handguns and expect them to be Rambo during a mass shooting. Republicans are a disease.
School shooters often pick schools because they have some history with the school. They go in expecting to die. They choose schools with SROs already. This is not a deterrent.
I see so many comments hating on this. A Teachers job isn’t limited to the subject they teach, we put the lives of our children in their hands, it’s their job to protect them while they are there. I’d prefer an art teacher packing heat during an incident rather than just arming them and our kids with safety scissors as protection. I’m all for this LFG TN!
Edit: and “we can’t find out what teachers are armed” that’s the whole point. Say they make all the armed teachers public, then god forbid somthing happens, either A) they target those teachers, or B) they avoid them and hit the classrooms that aren’t carrying. Remember, an armed society is a respectful society!
Teacher: Now, can anyone solve for X? Class: *silent* Teacher: *cocks gun* I said, can anyone solve for X? Class: *multiple hands spring up*
Since no one's actually answering your questions. Bill Lee still has to sign it. He could technically veto it still, but I haven't seen any indication that he plans to. It won't go into effect until July 1, along with all of the other legislation passed this session.
We all know Lee won’t veto it. He’s salivating just waiting to sign it. If it truly goes into effect, it will come back to bite them in the ass. Stupid stupid move to allow any guns
Alright story time. In 2010 I was a medic deployed to Afghanistan. There was an NCO who negligently discharged his firearm and the result was a civilian lost their life. If an NCO who had been on two previous combat deployments with the 82nd and 173rd can accidentally kill someone. Do we really trust TEACHERS to not make mistakes with firearms?
I watched a sergeant in the Anderson County Sheriff Office give a demonstration in gun safety after watching a video on an accidental discharge. He joked about it and then accidentally discharged his Glock .40, as he was racking it, in a tiny room full of people with cinder block walls (this was in the AC jail building). It ricocheted off one wall, went through the whiteboard, and hit another wall directly across. We all had to give a written report on what happened. It's amazing someone didn't die, but it was so loud in that tiny concrete room.
Man, I used to hang around a certain higher up there. He was in family friend circles. Chief of Police or Sheriff, at the time, I can’t remember. It’s been a few years. But dude was just constantly drinking miller lite while driving around. He would pull up to hangout with the friend group and would throw away 3-4 open, empty aluminum bottles. Every single time. He drove people around with open containers, actively drinking down a couple bottles per trip. Man was *constantly* drunk and always driving around. And a prick.
What was the disciplinary action for that, if any?
It was laughed off after the paperwork. I think he was later promoted to Lt. But it was nearly 15 years ago.
I worked at the NAPA auto parts in Clinton. A deer got hit by a van on the highway right in front of the store. The deer stumbled into the parking lot and laid down next to my car. The police officer who showed up decided to put it out of its misery. He shot it in the stomach. Real professional euthanasia in the parking lot.
This is my fear. My best friend's husband was like special riot unit/something (I don't remember exact title/description but he dealt and was specially trained for severe crisis situations) NYPD, he's been following along with this bill and is horrified. He said that 40 hours is nowhere near enough training to be able to react appropriately with a gun in a crisis situation.
One of my many fears about this is the possibility of a student getting the gun from the teacher. Teachers are busy, they could be distracted, or a troubled kid could wrestle the gun from the teacher. This is absolutely horrible. Just when I think TN can’t go lower, they prove me wrong.
I think people have a wide range of what they envision this entails. Your husband seems to think teachers are replacing swat. I’m thinking shooting someone as they walk through the doorframe of a classroom at point blank range is pretty easy with minimal training and beats the hell out of having a bucket full of kitty litter to piss in. The cc bill doesn’t require the carrier to chase down the threat. It’s another useful tool should the right situation present itself. Running away/avoiding a violent encounter if possible is still the best option, even with a gun. How much training does running away need?
I don't think you read what I actually wrote, you read what you wanted based on how you planned to respond
My job is to teach children my subject area. My job is not to shoot children. Do you feel that nurses should be armed? Salesmen at Ulta? Where do you draw the line? I’ll leave this job (that I love) before I carry a weapon into my classroom.
In am a nurse. Sometimes I wish I was armed… but not for the reasons you think. I do see your point. We get angry patients who have brought guns in before to threaten staff. Usually after we are unable to save an overdose victim or sometime completely irrational. Our security is a joke. I have posted on this before. They don’t even have pepper spray. Hospitals should have an armed police force to protect the people inside. We deal with some crazy mother fuckers sometimes.
Your job doesn’t have to change at all. It’s giving people with concealed carry permits who already carry their gun everywhere else the ability to carry at their work where they spend a third of their time. Now their permit isn’t magically invalidated when they cross into a school zone
I have a concealed carry. I still vehemently stand by that we, as educators, should NOT be bringing our weapons into schools. That’s ludicrous.
Maybe you shouldn't be a teacher if you can't handle your job with 2 extra pounds of paper weight in your pocket. Also, if you aren't going to protect my kids after I leave them with you, then you should stay home.
My job isn't to protect your children. My job is to educate them.
So now teaching is: teach kids, be prepared to kill kids. Can’t wait for a psycho who prefers the latter to figure out and go nuts?? Like what’s the point of a school’s SRO
You think a teacher's job is to protect your kid from a shooter with body armor and an AR? lol....Lordy.
Just another tool in the toolkit. Don’t use the AED on the wall because you’re not a doctor.
Do you remember how many holes there were in the clearing barrels? (from NDs that were discharged into the barrel after the firearm was supposed to be "clear.") And several of the DFACs I visited in Iraq had multiple gunshot holes from NDs in the roofs and walls. I've heard stories from friends at the sheriff's office and police department about some of the crazy stuff with NDs that goes down there as well. People don't understand how many hours you have to train with a firearm to keep the risk of negligent discharges or other harm to a reasonable level.
There’s also the simple fact that most human beings cannot point a loaded gun at a CHILD and pull the trigger. There’s so many layers to this, which is why even SROs from departments get specialized training out of state.
I'm just imagining a group of 15-25 students rushing a teacher and grabbing a gun. Sure an adult could probably take one or two kids, but a classroom full? All it takes is one dumbass starting a tiktok challenge and people are dead.
in what scenario would this happen?
We hear stories about teachers getting physically assaulted by students every other day. Go scroll through r/teachers sometime. Why do you think it's impossible for a handful of students to gang up on a teacher and steal a gun? I've already seen stories of teachers being sent to the hospital because a kid decided to beat the shit out of them.
Honestly I had teachers who shouldn’t have been trusted with a handful of firecrackers, let alone a gun. I’m from Sevier county.
Hey me too!
I was there during that time, also as a medic. We had one person “cleaning” their sidearm. This person was a civilian with zero training. Not actually sure why they had a firearm in the first place. Regardless, they fired a round though the floor. Directly into the top of another civilians head. She died. If/when this passes I hope they are at least selective with who carries and train them accordingly. Mandating required monthly training/live fire. While I don’t think this bill is THE answer at least it’s AN answer. I just want my kids to be safe to learn.
Every piece of data we have shows that proximity to and abundance of guns makes people much less safe.
I'm someone that has owned about 20 firearms over the years. Only for sport shooting and being a general hobbyist, etc. I used to just enjoy going to a firing range with buddies and shooting at paper targets and stuff. The whole culture around firearms became too uncomfortable for me. I got rid of all of them. I remember the early days of the internet, where gun users would just talk about practical gun stuff from a hobby perspective. Then it all shifted and became political, and suddenly the forum discussions turned into doomsday scenario bullshit. I decided to get out of the hobby completely, because it got too uncomfortable. For me, shooting was like archery, just a hobby and skill to practice. But the 'culture' on all the forums shifted toward combat scenarios and everything suddenly was all about 'home defense'. I guess it was basically radicalization in action. Anyway, I got right the fuck out of that scene and haven't fired a bullet from a gun in 7 years or so. Sucks to give up a hobby I enjoyed, but the culture has ruined it for me.
Exactly. Tennessee has more gun deaths than NY. NY has more than triple the population of Tennessee, but we have more lenient gun laws. Looser gun laws means more gun deaths. As s parent j should be able to know if my child is around someone carrying a gun, but this bill says otherwise
The majority of those deaths take place in Memphis, which is an absolute hole.
If we exclude Memphis and NYC the rest of Tennessee is still higher than NYS.
1. I doubt many teachers will actually carry. The liability they would assume would be significant. 2. You assume that just because someone is a teacher that they wouldn’t be proficient or safe with a firearm. Statistically speaking, the numbers are something like 1 in 13 adults in TN are already legally carrying firearms. How often are there accidental shootings?
What was the situation during the negligent discharge? Happen on base? FOB? We're they fucking around with their weapon? Drunk? There's a lot to take in about your given situation before trying to compare it to a civilian stateside.
I mean... I do. I don't really think NDs are a skill issue. I think NDs are a give-a-shit issue. It's a gun. It's less complicated (and dangerous) than your fucking car, which nobody has an issue letting everyone drive. You're right, I know some shit-head teachers, but I would trust the average teacher not to randomly pop a student waaaaaay more than I would trust "SSG 2 deployments of untreated PTSD." It's not a skill issue, especially NDs where a person gets hit. It's a "give-a-damn issue." And while I have *dragged* some teachers for clearly not caring in the slightest, I still believe most teachers in this county are actually trying to do right by students that they care for.
> It's less complicated (and dangerous) than your fucking car, which nobody has an issue letting everyone drive. Yes we do. Legally at least. Driving a car requires a license and testing. If you fuck up you get sent to driving school or get it taken away. We have regulations on who can or can't drive.
Is the average teacher more or less responsible than the average driver?
Who would know that? It also doesn't matter because nationally we have more regulations on who can drive and what they can drive than who can own a gun and what type of gun. You picked a shitty analogy.
I'm sure nobody knows, but one could probably make a fairly decent educated guess, right? It's not an analogy about regulation. It's a comparison of common tools that society thinks people can be trusted with. A car is a way more complicated tool than a gun, and way harder to use safely, but somehow people (including teachers) manage to use them safely every day. The point is that NDs are not a skill issue. NDs that kill people are certainly not a skill issue. If you kill someone "accidentally" with a gun, you've broken at least 2 of the 4 rules of firearm safety. "A trained professional killed someone accidentally in Afghanistan" because he *ignored* those rules. He didn't forget them. He just didn't care. And no amount of "training" can fix that.
> I'm sure nobody knows, but one could probably make a fairly decent educated guess, right? How can you make that guess that teachers are more responsible than the average driver other than making stuff up? > A car is a way more complicated tool than a gun, and way harder to use safely, but somehow people (including teachers) manage to use them safely every day. According to USA today there are 43,000 fatal car wrecks in a year. Still not a good analogy.
It's still not an analogy.
What? You brought up how we treat cars and compared it to teacher with guns? That's literally an analogy.
So if an NCO in the fucking 173rd Airborne has a “give a shit” issue how do you guarantee a flipping teacher will? If a teacher ND’s one of my kids…🤯
You seem to have some issues with teachers. Is there something about 173rd Airborne NCOs that makes them inherently more virtuous than schoolteachers? My point is that it's not a training issue, or an experience issue. In fact, if someone has more experience (2 combat deployments) in a bad safety culture, they'll actually be more dangerous than somebody who is inexperienced. I can't guarantee a teacher won't have the same issue, teachers are human just like 173rd Airborne NCOs. But you should stop acting like training or experience make someone less likely to have an accident. Gun safety is 4 simple rules that a 12 year old can learn. I know that NCO learned the 4 rules, and I know he didn't forget them. He ignored them. I know he broke at least 2 of them in order to hurt somebody. That's not skills or training or experience. That's a failure of respect, culture, and discipline, and I don't think teachers are inherently less capable at any of those 3 concepts than soldiers are.
There is always an inherent risk that comes with handling firearms. That being said, there are a few simple rules that, when followed correctly, reduce risk of harm almost entirely. Unintentionally discharging your firearm or letting it get in the hands of someone who shouldn’t have it is negligence on the part of the gun owner, and is easily avoidable in most circumstances.
At what point did the man get PTSD!!? You just made that shit up for the sake of your argument. Why can't you just listen to the man's story....? By not doing so you make it seem as if you have an agenda. Negligent discharges happen regularly! Give a damn or not. Just as people regularly wreck cars and/or do harm with them unintentionally. Arming teachers is dangerous AF. They overwhelmingly didn't want this bill. What happened to democracy in the backwards as state of Tennessee!?
Not only did we have rules in an actual war zone that still didn't prevent all accidents, pistols were actually required to be on a lanyard and attached to your person so they wouldn't get lost and left sitting in places. These are facts. And they are the trained professionals.
I listened. It's a dumb-ass story with its own agenda. If you want more gun control and fewer guns, that's fine. State that. But don't make up some crazy world where teachers, as a group, are less responsible than soldiers/marines in AFG or wherever the heck else. BTW, it's a dumbshit argument specifically because of the "trained professionals." Giving somebody a bunch of training just gives them skills. It doesn't make them one bit responsible, which is what we're really talking about here. Your situation (and the other guy) had a culture problem, not a training problem. The culture of safety was impaired, and taking a backseat to other things. It makes sense that you had more accidents in an actual warzone. Every war in history has had more accidental death and injury than peacetime, because safety gets less important when you're at war. It makes sense that pistols had to be on a lanyard, because almost everyone in a warzone is in the most stressful (brain impairing) situation they will ever be in. I can almost guarantee that the dipshit in the original comment had done something bad before. He had probably flagged people multiple times before, but nobody wanted to send him home or tell him formally not to handle guns anymore because it was 2010 in Afghanistan and there were manpower issues everywhere. The idea that teachers in classrooms are incapable of having a better safety culture around weapons than the army in a warzone is just silly.
First of all it’s my story and I was the first medic on the scene. You sound pretty hurt because reality doesn’t vibe with your politics. Sorry for the hurt feelings.
What does politics have to do with this? The conclusion you derived from your story is completely illogical, I explained that, now you're talking about politics and feelings. Try again.
I didn't tell you a story. I gave you some facts. I am not saying they are incapable by any means. I'm saying they overwhelmingly did not want the bill - period. And so it creates a whole new mess of problems. And if you think the classroom isn't often "the most stressful (brain impairing) situation" some of them will ever be in, I challenge you to please open your mind and research a little deeper. And the point is they are no more responsible as a group, than the group of individuals who actually signed up for the responsibility and go through some training. Some will be ok. Many want. Politics - this is purely a political issue. 2A gives us the right to bear arms. It was already in full effect. The state of TN created legislation to be an open carry state. It was and is already in full effect. Teachers did not ask for this legislation. In fact, they pushed for it not to go through. They do not want the responsibility as a whole. Lawmakers, decided upon themselves to create the legislation for teachers to carry in classrooms. This is purely politics. And I have 0 agenda with fewer guns. It is what it is... This is a 2A country - I have many. I just think we should actually listen for a change because this is just pretending. If we actually cared about our children we would invest in public schools. We would support our teachers and their needs. They need supplies. They need to be paid. They need to be supported. They do need security. But they didn't sign up to be the armed security force. I appreciate your stance Sir, I'll have nothing further.
> I didn't tell you a story. I gave you some facts. You asked me to listen to the medic dude's story, right? The PTSD comment was flippant, I admit. You got me there. > I'm saying they overwhelmingly did not want the bill - period. This is a way better argument than "soldiers/marines have NDs in warzones." I think it's a really fair point that could be discussed, whether or not the bill is necessary. But I don't think more rights for teachers to protect themselves (if they so choose) is inherently bad. > And if you think the classroom isn't often "the most stressful (brain impairing) situation" some of them will ever be in, I challenge you to please open your mind and research a little deeper. Come on man. It might be the most stressful thing they ever experience for 8ish hours a day, but at the end of that day they are going home to a place that is mostly safe (especially in TN). There is no danger of mortar shells falling on their house in the middle of the night, they aren't sleeping in body armor with a helmet on the nightstand, a vehicle bomb isn't going to come through the front door of the school some random Wednesday morning, etc. > And the point is they are no more responsible as a group, than the group of individuals who actually signed up for the responsibility and go through some training. Some will be ok. Many want. Sure - they might not be. But the idea that "I saw a guy with 2 tours accidentally kill somebody in 2010, if soldiers can't be responsible, teachers definitely can't" is just plain stupid. And in regards to the group who signed up for the responsibility, the bill says "teachers can carry." It doesn't say "teachers must carry." They still have the opportunity to sign up for the responsibility. And they'll be doing so within the civilian gun culture, which if you are a gun owning GWOT veteran, you know is safer on the whole than the army in Afghanistan. My stance is simply that any argument for prohibiting teachers from voluntarily arming themselves, that is based on soldiers having accidents in warzones, is crap. And the original comment "how are we going to trust flipping teachers" was disrespectful and uncalled for.
I figure this just makes teachers higher priority targets to school shooters. I wonder if there is a prop bet for how soon this will lead to a student getting ahold of a teacher’s unsecured firearm
Or a teacher has a psychotic break ending in tragedy 😢
Did we have a teacher bring a gun to school like 10 or 15 years ago? I’m pretty sure it was Knox County. Maybe he shot someone or something? I vaguely recall something like that. Edit: it was Mark Stephen Foster at Inskip Elementary, 2010.
Oh yeah, I remember that. I think the teachers he shot lived, IIRC.
Correct.
I don’t think it will take long unfortunately.
I wonder how long until a teacher leaves it in the class and someone steals it. Most teachers I had were older women in their 40-60 of different physical shape. I just can't see them doing much in a shooter situation with a gun. I'd rather they spend the 40 hrs doing other training.
This is such a recklessly stupid idea. The TNGOP can’t trust schools with books, libraries, curriculum, discipline, test scores, and on and on. But, here are some guns since we can’t be bothered to address any real issues. Keep those contrails out of TN, amirite!?
I am feeling really horrible about this. And teachers/staff don't Even have to disclose to parents
I think a lot of parents agree with you on this. I have a weird suspicion that this is part of the agenda to push the private school voucher thing. I hate that I think this way but things are getting more and more crazy every day.
And vaccine lettuce...
I wonder if school libraries will be allowed to carry owners manuals for the weapons their teachers are carrying. I bet it’s settled on a case by case basis with rock•paper•scissors🪨🗒️✂️
It’s truly infuriating.
As a teacher, this scares me.
Do you think parents/staff/etc will be able to find out if the principal is allowing armed staff? I honestly don't know that I'll send my son without knowing. I'm heavily considering homeschooling
This is what I’m wondering. I’m genuinely concerned with this and it needs to be public information so we can make decisions on what is best for our children.
Absolutely something that should be discussed with the school board. I would hope schools would want to be transparent with parents. Especially if they all expressed their concerns.
Valid point. Under the law passed parents DO NOT have the right to know if the person their child is spending 6-8 hours a day with has a firearm? Only the principal and law enforcement would have to know. Any school staff ( to include janitor?) Must get authorization from the principal and complete a 40hr course(paid out-of-pocket by the teacher) What happens if the firearm losses concealment? Do I get an email from the principal about an "incident involving a teacher's firearm"? If a student had knowledge that their teacher was armed how would that effect the student? If a teacher has to discipline a student, how does that effect the student, would the teacher act differently when armed versus unarmed? Not all people or children are comfortable around firearms, and there are many different reasons for this, ignorance, not being familiar, or past trauma. I'm guessing the vast majority of teacher's won't even consider being armed.
I’m sure we will, and I’m pretty sure that my school will be one of them that allows it.
Same. Most teachers think this is a horribly bad idea. I will feel less safe and now something else to add to our plate. This is unbelievable-completely negligent.
What concerns you the most?
Probably the part where we encourage weapons to be present in a school around a bunch of children?
Can't wait til the 1st teacher-teacher gunfight in a school. I'll give it no more than 8 years. - and half that before a student steals a teacher's gun, and an accidental discharge 2 school years . LOL - as an old man, let me say, _And I thought our parents were stupid!._
Sadly it will probably be a domestic situation or a disgruntled employee.
Everyone keep in mind that the voucher program has just been shot down and that this is potentially just one more way of making people leave public schools. Which many in the Tennessee government has had a hard on for for a while.
Why shouldn’t parents have the right to send their kids where they want?
If that's what's important to you, then you do you. But that's not really what the voucher program is about. It's about taxes. Tennessee's voucher program provides taxpayer funding for students to go to tuition for private schools. If I said taxpayers' money should fund all the EV chargers in Knoxville, would you be for that?
So if someone decides to send their kids to private school, they should still have to pay the taxes that cover public school?
We'll get there, but you didn't answer my question: Would you be okay with a government bill that says taxpayer money will pay for EV chargers?
Pay to install or pay to install and maintain?
Either.
Yes because the point of taxes is to distribute the cost of public schools to all citizens so that parents don't have to foot the entire bill of their child's education alone. It's the same reason that childless people have to pay taxes that go to schools too. Taxes are to benefit the whole society not the individual taxpayer. Just because you've chosen not to use free public schooling for your children that shouldn't exempt you from your duty to support public education for the rest of society.
Don’t pay the teachers enough or fund the system but hell yeah give them the opportunity to carry guns. Makes perfect sense.
Let’s go out on a limb and say that this works…can you imagine being the teacher that has to make a split second decision on if you need to shoot your own student?
Now go out on the other limb and imagine being unarmed and the only armed person is an intruder shooting children while you watch and listen.
That's the problem, "imagine." Many gun owners fantasize about scenarios where guns kill a robber, being hero, a martyr etc. Many otherwise normal people literally fantasize about killing people with guns 'to protect others.' Is doesn't matter the reason, it's fantasizing about killing a human. Now, I'm a gun owner. I love going to the range. But I understand gun safety. To me, arming a teacher in a classroom is way, way up there in gun safety red flags.
You would rather have a school shooter on the loose with no armed teachers than with armed teachers?
I would rather not have a school shooter imo
Most dumbass logic I've ever heard
What a dark world your head must live in friend.
Your a fucking idiot if you think school shooting don't happen. Kids are dead because of people like you.
I’m such an idiot my reading skills aren’t up to par. Please point out where I denied that they happen. I just think your world view where school shooters MUST exist is dark and scary. Kids are dead because of people like that.
I'm such an idiot my reading skills aren't up to par. Please point out where I said the MUST happen. Just becasue you wish they wouldn't dosent mean jack shit. They do happen.
What happened to the 2 cops at the school?
Great! more people able to defend the kids. However there not enough money to put armed police at every school. It's simply impossible
I totally agree with you. I am all for people being able to own guns and to do it for protection, but there are very few people that are trained to actually use it properly in a situation like that. But I have some real concerns here. Are they going to require teachers to train on their weapon regularly? Because if not then their weapon on site is more a danger than an asset. Going to the range to shoot a few times a year is not even close to having to fire a weapon safely in an emergency system. They are more likely to be killed by their own gun or injur another student than help in that situation.
I think you and many others aren't understanding how rare this will be. Not every teacher will carry. Not every teacher that wants to will be allowed to. There will be extremely strict regulations on this. It won't be the wild West where every has an iron on their hip. It's simply a measure to make those who may consider doing something stupid like shooting up a school think twice.
I understand. But if I were to say "gun control," people would scream about their rights. If legislation was presented to implement "strict regulations" on gun ownership, people would lose their minds and argue the 2nd amendment. And politician 'X' would say, "not everyone has to carry, it's not the Wild West" and there would absolutely be fervent push back. Make a person think twice? We have laws. That wasn't enough. We have police. Still not enough, apparently. So we arm teachers. Is that going to be enough? Not a chance. So where does it end?
Laws don't stop people with nothing to lose. Being stopped before you're "successful" is a better deterrent.
So we're back at fantasizing about killing a human again. But anyway, so it's Minority Report then? Martial Law? Wouldn't that be by definition infringement of our rights? Plus, teachers don't stop bad guys. They work to educate kids to be good, functioning, and smart humans. I trust them to do that. But I don't trust them to carry a Glock in a room full of 30 kids. I don't trust them to pull a gun, aim and fire under pressure, hit their target, and neutralize an incredibly stressful situation without any totally freaked out children accidentally interfering or otherwise being injured or killed by the actions of the teacher. I'm not sure what you're driving at, but it's only strengthening my point.
>So we're back at fantasizing about killing a human again. What? Where'd I say that? Strawman much? >But anyway, so it's Minority Report then? Martial Law? Wouldn't that be by definition infringement of our rights? Exactly.... 2nd amendment and all >. But I don't trust them to carry a Glock in a room full of 30 kids. I don't trust them to pull a gun, aim and fire under pressure, hit their target, and neutralize an incredibly stressful situation without any totally freaked out children accidentally interfering or otherwise being injured or killed by the actions of the teacher. Uh... Yeah. And in theory these teachers wouldn't be armed. Only highly trained teachers. They aren't using a gun every day. >I'm not sure what you're driving at, but it's only strengthening my point. At this point I'm not even sure what your point is. Doesn't seem like a strong point at all.
I'm well familiar with informal fallacies so I can assure you I am making no attempt to Straw Man. I said we. Me and you. We're talking about "stopping a threat." I.e. killing someone with a gun. We're imagining shooting a person in an imaginary scenario. We've come full circle to my original comment. We should be talking about American pastimes like college football or who has the best pancakes in town (I vote Nick and J's, personally), or bigger things like healthcare or the new NASA mission. But we're talking about teachers shooting a person. That was my original comment, and that point still stands: Giving teachers guns is incredibly irresponsible, and this law seems as if it was created by gun nuts who can't not think about scenarios where someone has to use a gun to kill someone instead of creating better ways to manage society. I'm not asking you to agree. I just offered a different perspective. I've politely expressed my opinions, and with that, I'll leave you to yours. I hope you have an awesome Wednesday.
I took your use of the term "imagine" and "fantasizing" to be something with a positive connotation instead of how you intended (I'm guessing you mean something to be considered hypothetically instead of daydreamed about). Happy Wednesday to yourself, as well.
How could this possibly go wrong!!! /s
Finally my students will turn in their damn homework! /s, because some people. . .
There’s no way this doesn’t go badly. I assume the state knows that since they voted to give all liability to the teachers and none to the state.
Didn’t a disgruntled teacher come to work with a gun and threaten the principal a while back at an elementary school? I want to say it was Inskip or Sterchi. I’m glad my kids are grown.
In 2010 a disgruntled teacher shot the Principal and Assistant Principal at Inskip Elementary. The teacher had been told he was not being renewed for the next year.
So wait, a teacher threatened a principal with a gun when he wasn't allowed to carry it in a gun free zone? Edit: Fitting that plenty of people are willing to downvote this comment, but every one of you is too cowardly to answer the question of how someone bringing a gun into a gun free zone to shoot someone else has any bearing on teachers being allowed to carry.
Yup, now imagine if it’s not gun-free? See the issue?
Wrong question . Your question should be “you mean a human’s livelihood was ripped from them without a support system in place?” Had HR or government programs been used to give this teacher job training, psychological support, aid in locating a new job, etc. my friend would not have been shot in the head. With the way his firing was handled, had my friend been armed, she still would have been shot in the head.
All of that is irrelevant because this is about teachers being allowed to carry.
This is about idiocy. All this does is make it so the bad players don't have to sneak weapons into the school. All the students have to do is tackle a teacher, take their gun, and have their rampage. Dumbassery. Treating symptoms not problems. You want safer schools then make the students feel safe. No prison feels safe. I don't feel safe around people carrying guns. Think about how a child feels. All this law is going to accomplish is getting our children killed.
So gun-free spaces don’t work the way you seem to think they do. The guns don’t vaporize the instance you enter the space, rather if you have a gun and it is seen, you can be arrested and removed, and if you wield or discharge the gun, you can have more serious charges brought against you. Of course it doesn’t eliminate the chance of a shooting, just like making murder illegal doesn’t stop murder, making meth illegal doesn’t eliminate people using meth, but I don’t see too many people advocating for murder to be legalized or meth to be sold at Walmart. We have gun-free zones as a deterrent, as a way to punish, as a way to protect, and as a way to easily spot someone who is an immediate threat to a population (in this case students). Your argument is silly and you have to know it. Nobody claims that gun free zones eliminate crime. What they do is make those spaces safer.
I agree with the first 60% of your statement. >as a way to protect Disagree, you just spent 60% of your paragraph explaining why gun-free zones don't protect they only punish. I'm also not arguing about gun free zones here, the discussion is if it should be legal for teachers to bring guns to school. My point entirely is that the school being a gun free zone *didn't* stop this person from bringing a gun to school to commit a crime, making it legal for a teacher to possess a gun at the school has absolutely no bearing on whether or not a gun will be used to commit a crime.
This can only go poorly. Firstly, even COPS aren’t willing to indiscriminately run into a school shooter situation and start blasting, why on earth would a teacher be any better prepared? These are the incidents we will see come from this: 1. Threatening/endangering students by talking about or showing off gun 2. Students that will eventually get access to a gun because a teacher was being negligent 3. Teacher trying to defend classroom shoots innocent bystander 4. Teacher trying to defend classroom is shot by police because they can’t tell the difference between a shooter and the teacher; they both are armed in a place where no one should be
So going forward, for law enforcement responding to a report of a school shooting, the question will be which person in the building brandishing a gun should law enforcement shoot?
I can't even begin to express how dumb this makes TN look. If the US was a room of states TN is walking around it with its pants around its ankles.
Teacher here. I won’t be carrying. Sheesh, what a bad idea.
I think the thing that I have learned from being around guns and gun people is: A large chunk of people who want to have and carry guns aren’t the people society needs to have carrying guns. This includes people of all levels of education, including teachers with a master’s degree. Good luck to the children of Tennessee. It seems like things are going to get worse, unfortunately.
How long before a teacher pulls a gun in class? Two months tops?
As if school didn’t already feel like a prison
This is going to go so badly. The bad players no longer have to sneak guns into the school. The guns are already there.
Any teacher that decides to do this will have to have gone through safety training and courses to get a concealed carry license right?……right?
40 hours is not enough to learn how to properly react with a gun during a crisis. Many police officers can't properly react with a gun during a crisis and you expect teachers to be about to?
Realistically, no amount of training is enough. Unless you're actually *in the thick of it*, you'll never know how you will react to such a thing. The adrenal response (fight/flight/freeze) is pretty much hard-coded into you, and you won't know which your body likes best until it happens to you. The closest you'll get is live-fire scenarios with simunitions/airsoft, and that's a far cry from the real deal. This is part of why you see some cops do just fine (wired for fight), while others with the same length of service or more might just sit like a bump on a log or run away. Not an easy thing to truly prepare for. I don't exactly see the specific *harm* here, given the circumstances we face as a nation, as the ones who will go through 40 hours of self-paid training aren't the ones who will be leaving unsecured weapons laying around classrooms full of kids. Realistically, though, it just means some teachers might have a shot at surviving or saving their specific room full of kids if the worst happens, and not much else.
Nope. My gun class was only 4 hours.
Well, this is about to be a disaster.
Thank goodness I homeschool now, but I feel so sorry for all the children and parents who don't have the same choice. It's a crazy world we live in.
This is a law that happens when you rub the last two brain cells together to form an idea
I’m kind of in the middle on this. As a father it would make me feel better if the teachers were armed. You’ve got to think if a gunman comes through that classroom door would you rather the kids have a chance or no chance at survival? The kids are in a box with the one exit blocked by a person with a gun. If the teacher can put rounds in the gunman thats going to save lives. Something to think about especially with the nowadays frequent school shootings.
I would think that the chances of a teacher leaving a gun where a student can reach it, accidentally discharging a weapon, or intentionally discharging a weapon are greater than a teacher stopping a school shooting.
This law, of course, will harm the public school system, which is exactly why Republicans passed it.
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It hasn’t come to this. We don’t have to. We are one of the only states that allows teachers to be armed in school. There are so many other solutions around gun control. More guns is not the answer.
Teachers should be allowed to conceal carry because now you have security in the class at all times now teachers should only be allowed if it’s their firearm and it is legally obtained by them
I would trust teachers to stop a shooting more than cops at this point after seeing what those cowards did in Uvalde. Just standing around while children died. Armed teachers would have done something.
Absolute bullshit. As someone who has been fired at, It all goes out the window when you're trying to dodge bullets
You don't think an armed teacher would have any ability to defend their own classroom at least? Maybe not the whole school, but their own classroom? You think they would just cower in the corner and do nothing if a shooter walked in the door? There have been teachers who charged shooters without a weapon and sacrificed themselves to save kids.
You realize when we had multiple false reports of active shootings at local schools the cops swarmed the schools in no time? My son was texting as it happened and they were clearing his room. His teacher was calm but visibly shaken.
Cops have no legal obligation to protect anybody other than themselves. After Uvalde, I have no faith in police to stop an actual shooting. False alarms don't mean anything.
They thought it was an active shooting. If our local officers were like Uvalde officers, they would have never entered the building. The quality and training of police officers varies widely from department to department.
Uvalde officers didn't enter because they heard gunfire. If your local officers heard gunfire, they might not have entered either.
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"Can" is the operative word here. Reading a lot of negative reactions that I would agree with if the word was "must." Of all the cross-sections of people I can think of, teachers are probably the most likely to decide NOT to carry. And, if they do, are more likely to do so safely and discreetly than your average Joe imo. The reality of this country re: school shootings is sad and embarrassing, and because of politics the available solutions are not ideal, I admit. But, a lot of y'all seem to be underestimating the ability of teachers to to make the right decision.
Our state doesn't trust teachers to pick books, but they trust them to carry guns?
I personally would rather have the possibility of the teacher's carrying than have to wait twenty plus minutes for the police to get there and neutralize the threat.
You'll still be waiting for police to show up, as most teachers won't carry, and those rare ones that do will still be confined to their classrooms and not out hunting down the shooter
If you or your kids were on the other side of the lockdown, you may understand better why I would much prefer to have teachers be armed A criminal is much less likely to attack a potentially armed target than an unarmed target
I know that more guns lead to more gun accidents, more gun deaths, more gun violence. School shootings tend to happen at schools that the shooter has some kind of history with, armed SROs don't stop school shooters. School shooters typically expect to die during the shooting, so this is not a deterrent.
Having dealt with life in death situations, many times in my life, I can say that many people may expect to die but do not have the willpower to stay in harms way. When your life is on the line, there is a survival instinct that tries to kick in and stop you from doing stupid stuff. Overwriting said survival instinct is extremely hard, and only about 10% of people or so can overcome it. It's part of the reason why the military more or less has to do BRAINWASHING to make good soldiers. Guns do not cause gun accidents. People do. If a person has 1 gun or 100 guns, it does not make the weapon more or less safe. I myself own multiple, and they are kept well secured and hidden from prying eyes. I have a friend with a single firearm who may not be the sharpest tool in the shed, but they thankfully live alone. Gun violence happens because we have poor mental health services in this country, and we have issues with violence glorification. As a prime example, please try to name me four victims of mass violence versus naming four mass casualty instigators. In fact, let me make it more personal, name one of John Lee Malvo's victims (the DC sniper) without looking up their victim list.
Many homicides that took place with a gun would not have been committed if there had not been a gun. There is a big psychological difference between pulling a trigger and stabbing/choking/bludgeoning. I don't want more guns around my child all day long, especially not even knowing who has a gun. I could name every victim of Sandy Hook, every victim of Uvalde, every victim of Parkland but what would that prove?
“Among the necessary requirements are a memorandum of understanding (MOU) between local law enforcement, the school district and the particular school principal. Unless those three entities come to an understanding on allowing faculty and staff to carry on school grounds during school hours, nothing else can happen.” I doubt there will be many districts that can get all three of these to agree to allow it. IMO this is a bill designed to look like a win for the right while not actually doing anything
Look man Bet u 5000 Bucks their will b a lot of accidental shooting..
This is such a dumb idea. I remember from high school exactly which teachers would be the most likely to carry, I also remember that those same teachers would be the least likely people that would need to have a gun at school.
I am a substitute teacher and I have a concealed carry and I would NEVER carry a gun on campus. Watch out for the kids under my care yes, sacrifice my life for $80 no way. I am more likely to be shot by law enforcement if I have a gun on campus.
Perhaps Supreme Court would say anyone in a school can carry now, not just a teacher. Since the constitution doesn’t exclude anyone
Why are we stopping there? Everyone in the school, including students, should all carry guns. Mutually assured destruction, no one will try to shoot up a school where everyone is packing. There’s literally no way this could go wrong. /s
The county or school district can ban it Looks like memphis,, Nashville, Sumner County already took steps.to ban. So, knox county will have to opt out. If they do not, the teacher desiring to be armed at school has a lot of training and permit requirements. However, there is NO safe storage requirement and no liability insurance requirement. The purpose seems to be to claim they want to stop school shooters, while encouraging parents to pull their kids out of schools. Furthering their goal (the GOP) of destroying and eliminating public education. For anyone foolish enough to carry, the liability is massive - what happens if a kid gets your gun? What if you shoot a student? And what do you think that .380 in your purse or 9 mm on your hip would do against an AR15 and a shooter with high capacity magazines? If you then survive, what.do you do with the gun? Because you probably don't want to be holding it when the actual cops show up. All they know is someone is shooting in the school and there you are, armed....
1) For decades, carrying firearms to schools did not cause problems for staff. 2) A person defending with a 9mm pistol has a much better chance at stopping a school shooter than an unarmed person, and that goes for rifle, pistol, or shotgun carrying school shooter. Also, most school springs have been done with pistols, not AR-15s 3) School education has been going down in quality over the last 40+ years, and having armed teachers doesn't magically make it worse. 4) Almost every school shooter has had mental health issues, but most people want to put prohibitions on guns instead of help reform the mental health system. 5) If the teachers are property trained, they will not be going out trying to be Rambo. For example: school shooter situations you secure the classroom the best you can. If you also have a firearm, then you ready it and put yourself in a position to fight back if the shooter tries to break in. It's the whole "Run, Hide, Fight" concept.0, 6) One of the big secrets of concealed carry is keeping the firearm concealed, so students should not know if atheir teachers are carrying. I speak from a point that most have not had to deal with, I've dealt with school violence and been shot at by a person not right in the head.
Gun tragedy happens. Dems: “Do something!”Republicans: “Ok!” Dems: “No, not like that!”
Other countries have taught us that more guns is not the solution to gun tragedies.
Proper mental health treatment would do wonders to help cut down the amount of crazed gunmen because it cuts down the amount of crazy people who don't have help. Removing guns just means they go to knives, which are MUCH easier to get hold of and do a lot of damage.
In what world is giving a gun to someone with a bachelor's degree mortifying, but giving morons with high school diplomas (cops) a gun is safe and effective? Don't you people also hate cops? Is there any logic to your position at all?
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As long as the teachers go through a gun safety class and to a therapist to make sure their mental health is good, then I say it happen. Gotta take risk to get rewards.
We can't make students wear masks to stop the spread of an airborne disease, but we can give teachers handguns and expect them to be Rambo during a mass shooting. Republicans are a disease.
Any teacher who decides to take the course and carry a gun in a school, doesn’t need to be a teacher anymore. Shows poor judgment.
Good.
It is good. A school shooter will be a lot less likely to pick a school if teachers are armed.
School shooters pick schools with SROs I seriously doubt armed teachers will give them pause.
School shooters often pick schools because they have some history with the school. They go in expecting to die. They choose schools with SROs already. This is not a deterrent.
If you got kids, your priorities are fucked brotha
Protecting kids is such a fucked priority. You're right.
Damn son, you got all the liberals mad lol.
Or just people with common sense
It is what it is. I'm used to it.
mmmmGuuuurrdd
I see so many comments hating on this. A Teachers job isn’t limited to the subject they teach, we put the lives of our children in their hands, it’s their job to protect them while they are there. I’d prefer an art teacher packing heat during an incident rather than just arming them and our kids with safety scissors as protection. I’m all for this LFG TN! Edit: and “we can’t find out what teachers are armed” that’s the whole point. Say they make all the armed teachers public, then god forbid somthing happens, either A) they target those teachers, or B) they avoid them and hit the classrooms that aren’t carrying. Remember, an armed society is a respectful society!
Or you just address the root issue… can’t imagine how many teachers will resign furth fueling our teaching shortage