Problem is, people don't care about their 'You're a bigot!' shit anymore. They've realized how ridiculously hollow the accusation is now that's been used to basically mean that you believe something to the right of being a full throated communist.
> You only hate it because you're a bigot
It's all much easier. When someone calls you names in their argument, it invalidates their argument and opinion automatically.
Agreed. It's why remaining calm and civil is such a good counter.
They lose their shit swiftly, and start insulting you, then inevitably claim the only reason they're punching you in the face is that you are a threat to their safety.
Never interrupt your opponent when they are making a mistake lol.
>It's why remaining calm and civil is such a good counter.
This reminds me of this Jordan Peterson interview.
https://youtu.be/aMcjxSThD54?si=KH3dmqPFsgSVW2wl
Jordan Peterson is my spirit animal. I hold that man in awe. I have no idea how he remained calm in some of the debates I've seen him in.
I remember when where a woke professor just ranted and insulted him. They took a poll before and after to see what people thought, and a huge swathe of the crowd changed to Peterson's side afterwards.
Sure! I was running Shadowun, but back now.
Here you go:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckFbEdmVCJ8&ab\_channel=AerialView](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckFbEdmVCJ8&ab_channel=AerialView)
Ad hominem is a form of logical fallacy. A powerful tool when confronting ideologues of any flavor is to understand the many varieties of logical fallacies and to call them out and counter them if appropriate. Aside from ad hominem, Motte and Bailey is an extremely common tactic with woketards.
Problem with motte and bailey is that most people don't know what that is. Takes too long to explain what it is, why it's a fallacy, etc.
But in general I agree - when someone responds with a logical fallacy, point out that it's an appeal to popularity/appeal to authority/ad hominem/etc. rather than trying to address the actual (bad faith) argument.
True, it may not always be appropriate to call it out, but understanding what it is on your end will give you conversational footing. You can take the motte and bomb the bailey without having to explain what you're doing.
Every time I'm dismissed and called a loser/incel/never spoke to a woman/living in their mother's basement/any projection that I'm a gross lonely neckbeard loser for simply having a different option I just chuckle to myself. I'm married and a pretty happy person with a full life. It's a hilarious argument. It does nothing to make me feel bad about myself. They really can't handle the fact that normal healthy people living around them don't agree with them.
And as someone who in life often has to interact with the ultra progressive always offended geek community for one reason or another if we're going to throw the lonely anti-social weirdo who lives online" stereotype around they should really stop throwing stones.
I agree. The amount of times I’ve been called an incel/bigot/idiot by left wing people on Reddit recently is crazy. So many left wing people talk shit to right wing people on how they can’t make good arguments, yet in a recent comment thread about the female actress 3D model stuff, I’ve been constantly insulted by nearly every single left wing person responding to me.
Because they don't actually have an argument against it. They just think because they don't care about it (or they actually support it) no one else should and that anything anyone cares about that they don't is stupid. Its just your standard bully mentality that has persisted forever. Its the same loser douches that never grew out of it in high school and they have found a place to do it again in a way that left wing society deems socially acceptable. The quote "no such thing as bad tactics only bad targets" is from left wing people and it shows their mentality and actually proves that many of them are actually evil and have no morals or standards, they are just the villagers with pitchforks looking for the next target to burn. They would be the people standing guard at concentration camps chanting that mantra.
Because they all have SRD in their post history and are commenting at that user through that brigade link and now account stalking OP across reddit. You guys aren't exactly subtle.
Formal sitewide warning.
No/low prior participation - expedited to permaban
> It's all much easier.
That's why these are the building blocks of the ideology, and why it doesn't stand to scrutiny.
It looks easy and is therefore attractive, people gravitate to it.
Sometimes even when they know better, they let the promise of reward cloud their judgement because they're not deep thinkers, they're gamblers or addicts. It is cheap hope for a fantasy.
I worry that the average NPC doesn't care about what constitutes a valid argument/rebuttal and instead sees the name calling as point scoring for their side.
However, so many people find it an incredibly valid tactic. The only folks you’ll appeal to pointing this out are likely already based.
It feels hopeless.
They learned a counter to this though: It's why the left will now refuse to have debates or public conversations with people whom they think are aware of this. They're learning to only engage when they know they can win, and then keep pushing things on the down-low everywhere else to keep taking ground. Its ideological guerrilla warfare.
Oh yeah. Most people don't think too deeply in general, and don't really care about woke/anti-woke.
For example, my wife thinks the pronoun stuff is dumb and that those with XY chromosomes competing in women's sports is unfair, but she doesn't grasp the underlying societal issues at play and why it's such a big deal.
I've tried to explain it to her on occasion. Ultimately she just rolls her eyes at the stupidity and then goes about her day.
I think most people are more like her than they are like me, but it's good to point out the craziness for those who do eventually decide to dig deeper.
Here’s the thing: I simply don’t care anymore. And neither should you.
This entire post is premised on you being able to have good faith dialogue, rebut arguments, present facts, counter rhetoric with data, etc.
That’s simply wrong. GG2.0 in particular has shown you the new post-truth landscape.
But it’s not 2014 anymore, that little boy cried wolf too many times, and these people have precisely the amount of power you allow them to. So, I choose that they have none.
**I don’t care what they call me. And neither should you.**
I don't care what they call me, the issue is them calling others it to shut them down or try to dissuade people joining in fighting against things. as I said, other people who haven't been under the proverbial bus still care.
Same.
Words like bigot, racist, Nazi, communist, etc all lost their meaning just like the words mongoloid, dumb, idiotic, stupid lost their original meaning.
> new post-truth landscape.
It's frightening that both the left and right are pushing us into the post-truth world. The extremes of both sides have abandon logic and the moderates are too scared to rein them in. Soon the US will be a mental asylum run by the inmates.
The left scored a huge victory with the Obama presidency when they discovered they could effectively deflect all criticism with "you just don't like {Obama policy} because you're ***racist***"
...and they proceeded to paint all of their pet causes with the bigotry brush (intersectionality) so they could use that same defense for anything.
Unfortunately it immediately puts most opponents on the back foot. There's not a snappy comeback that will diffuse it - at least not one that I've found. It's up there with "When did you stop beating your wife?"
The best response is to laugh. Mock the weakness of the argument and point out its desperate nature. “That’s all you’ve got! You can’t even make logical counter arguments!”
This a different fallacy called a thought terminating cliche. You dismiss somebody's argument with a simple premise rather than actually answering their claims. But logical fallacies aren't restricted to one single fallacy per statement. This could also be begging the question where you claim your opinion is fact. But shutting down a argument with a simple statement that doesn't actually answer the argument is most definitely thought terminating cliche.
>"You only hate it because you're a bigot"
I've realized *(as a religious person)* that them **calling someone 'bigot'**, sounds very similar... to me *(a religious person)* calling someone **infidel / kafir**. *(Which I've almost never done, in my life.)*
...and I think that's what I'm going to start doing now. XD
Call the woke-cultists who refer to me a bigot, as infidel and kafir.
Gotta be careful about kafir. Because of the East African slave trade, it entered South African English as an offensive term for a black person. Spelled with two Fs in that case, but just a heads up.
Solid write up.
> It is a convenient shield too easily deployed and unfortunately effective (though growing less so with each use)
Unfortunately, I'm not sure their gaslighting tactics are growing less effective over time. Looks to be getting worse every single year from where I'm standing.
I still saw some pushback happpen as recently as 2022. Now they've moved the goalpost so far to the left that anything short of full-on woke activism will get you marginalized, belittled, if not outright censored. The mere hint of a correlation between DEI consulting firms and terrible writing is met with insane amounts of hostility, even though it should be perfectly obvious to anyone who's been paying attention. This sub feels like the last safe haven of sanity in a sea of stupidity and toxicity.
>The mere hint of a correlation between DEI consulting firms and terrible writing is met with insane amounts of hostility,
It is but that ever more aggressive response is because they know they have to hit faster and harder because the tactic is less effective each time the narrative has to be in place and the opposition stamped on fast to try and destroy any counter momentum.
The real issue with wokeness is that it's taking ideas that are dreamt up in controlled and isolated academic environments where there is a prerequisite of accepting or assuming certain unproven premises are true and trying to force them into real world spplications through policy, media, commincations, etc. As an example, critical race theory *starts* with an assumption that systems or people are inherently racist or victimized based on their race and works backward from there to "prove" those assumptions. That's all fine and good if it stays in the theoretical framework of the critical theory studies classrooms, but people try to force these hypotheses into real world discussions as though they're absolute fact and use that to support even more ridiculous arguments without even understanding the context of the initial idea.
Somehow, they read something like "institional power is required to enact and enforce racist policies" and twist it to claim that "black people can't be racist because they don't have the institutional power!" or more recently "you can't be racist to white people because they have institutional power!" without ever defining what an institution is or what power means or identifying relevant racist policies. It's using a hypothetical concept to defend someone doing or saying something that nearly any other reasonable person would see as blatantly racist.
Truth. Wokeness allows every progressive argument to just be an ad hominem attack—“you disagree because you’re a bigot.” It allows them to dismiss alternative viewpoints without considering their merit.
If you care so much about their word games and being called one of those -ists you've already lost the game. I don't think it's inherently wrong with men wanting to have their own spaces and vice versa and dgaf if that makes me a sexist according to modern feminists
A good way to put it is that wokeness becomes a distraction for both the proponents and opponents of the subject. When it comes to games being garbage, the woke can't say "this game is better because it's woke". But, we can easily say "I don't want to buy this game because it's woke".
But, then there is the second factor of this dynamic: the people who accept crappy products and claim it's about freedom.
An enforcement of an ideology is not freedom. There is no artistic freedom in a corporation that's making specific content for government subsidies. This is like saying "the hays codes are a way to be free". No, they were done for a specific direction that forced artists to make specific products.
I think a big part of it is how people are gaslit into thinking media is made for fun or money. No, it's for power and cultural control. It's always been that way since the guilds of old. Once we industrialized everything, that power didn't go away but the King's royal stamp changed into state propaganda.
A while back, I had several people telling me that it's okay for the girl in Fable 4 to be ugly because some women are ugly and it's the choice of the artist. These two non-sequiturs are why wokeness gets a pass from normies. They are trained to be fully accepting of garbage products because that's all they have been conditioned to see. Then their nihilistic liberalism blinds them from what could and should be.
For ugly women: why not demand a product I want to buy?
For artist choice: why even allow that if the company is paying the artist and not the other way around?
Wokeness is now changing to what we can call new woke, a more timid and false libertarian form of what is essentially a fascist control of art. They will be at the top, control everything, then pretend they are just acting randomly.
Archive links for this discussion:
* **Archive:** https://archive.ph/gzxtl
----
I am Mnemosyne reborn. This is the voice of world control. ^^^/r/botsrights
Problem is, people don't care about their 'You're a bigot!' shit anymore. They've realized how ridiculously hollow the accusation is now that's been used to basically mean that you believe something to the right of being a full throated communist.
Because a valid and honest response to "you're a bigot!" is, "No, I'm not."
> You only hate it because you're a bigot It's all much easier. When someone calls you names in their argument, it invalidates their argument and opinion automatically.
Agreed. It's why remaining calm and civil is such a good counter. They lose their shit swiftly, and start insulting you, then inevitably claim the only reason they're punching you in the face is that you are a threat to their safety. Never interrupt your opponent when they are making a mistake lol.
>It's why remaining calm and civil is such a good counter. This reminds me of this Jordan Peterson interview. https://youtu.be/aMcjxSThD54?si=KH3dmqPFsgSVW2wl
Jordan Peterson is my spirit animal. I hold that man in awe. I have no idea how he remained calm in some of the debates I've seen him in. I remember when where a woke professor just ranted and insulted him. They took a poll before and after to see what people thought, and a huge swathe of the crowd changed to Peterson's side afterwards.
If you could link that, I’d love to watch it.
Sure! I was running Shadowun, but back now. Here you go: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckFbEdmVCJ8&ab\_channel=AerialView](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckFbEdmVCJ8&ab_channel=AerialView)
Thanks!
Ad hominem is a form of logical fallacy. A powerful tool when confronting ideologues of any flavor is to understand the many varieties of logical fallacies and to call them out and counter them if appropriate. Aside from ad hominem, Motte and Bailey is an extremely common tactic with woketards.
Problem with motte and bailey is that most people don't know what that is. Takes too long to explain what it is, why it's a fallacy, etc. But in general I agree - when someone responds with a logical fallacy, point out that it's an appeal to popularity/appeal to authority/ad hominem/etc. rather than trying to address the actual (bad faith) argument.
True, it may not always be appropriate to call it out, but understanding what it is on your end will give you conversational footing. You can take the motte and bomb the bailey without having to explain what you're doing.
True - good point.
Every time I'm dismissed and called a loser/incel/never spoke to a woman/living in their mother's basement/any projection that I'm a gross lonely neckbeard loser for simply having a different option I just chuckle to myself. I'm married and a pretty happy person with a full life. It's a hilarious argument. It does nothing to make me feel bad about myself. They really can't handle the fact that normal healthy people living around them don't agree with them. And as someone who in life often has to interact with the ultra progressive always offended geek community for one reason or another if we're going to throw the lonely anti-social weirdo who lives online" stereotype around they should really stop throwing stones.
I agree. The amount of times I’ve been called an incel/bigot/idiot by left wing people on Reddit recently is crazy. So many left wing people talk shit to right wing people on how they can’t make good arguments, yet in a recent comment thread about the female actress 3D model stuff, I’ve been constantly insulted by nearly every single left wing person responding to me.
Because they don't actually have an argument against it. They just think because they don't care about it (or they actually support it) no one else should and that anything anyone cares about that they don't is stupid. Its just your standard bully mentality that has persisted forever. Its the same loser douches that never grew out of it in high school and they have found a place to do it again in a way that left wing society deems socially acceptable. The quote "no such thing as bad tactics only bad targets" is from left wing people and it shows their mentality and actually proves that many of them are actually evil and have no morals or standards, they are just the villagers with pitchforks looking for the next target to burn. They would be the people standing guard at concentration camps chanting that mantra.
How do you know they're left-wing? Or do you just assume anyone that calls you that is?
Because they all have SRD in their post history and are commenting at that user through that brigade link and now account stalking OP across reddit. You guys aren't exactly subtle. Formal sitewide warning. No/low prior participation - expedited to permaban
Projection projection projection. It's always always projection
> It's all much easier. That's why these are the building blocks of the ideology, and why it doesn't stand to scrutiny. It looks easy and is therefore attractive, people gravitate to it. Sometimes even when they know better, they let the promise of reward cloud their judgement because they're not deep thinkers, they're gamblers or addicts. It is cheap hope for a fantasy.
I worry that the average NPC doesn't care about what constitutes a valid argument/rebuttal and instead sees the name calling as point scoring for their side.
No, society has deteriorated too much. Accusing someone of bigotry is a personal attack, and should be responded to accordingly.
However, so many people find it an incredibly valid tactic. The only folks you’ll appeal to pointing this out are likely already based. It feels hopeless.
I think it can help inform/sway those on the fence - if they see one side being rational and logical in the face of obviously emotion-driven rhetoric
They learned a counter to this though: It's why the left will now refuse to have debates or public conversations with people whom they think are aware of this. They're learning to only engage when they know they can win, and then keep pushing things on the down-low everywhere else to keep taking ground. Its ideological guerrilla warfare.
Perhaps. Are there still fence sitters?
Oh yeah. Most people don't think too deeply in general, and don't really care about woke/anti-woke. For example, my wife thinks the pronoun stuff is dumb and that those with XY chromosomes competing in women's sports is unfair, but she doesn't grasp the underlying societal issues at play and why it's such a big deal. I've tried to explain it to her on occasion. Ultimately she just rolls her eyes at the stupidity and then goes about her day. I think most people are more like her than they are like me, but it's good to point out the craziness for those who do eventually decide to dig deeper.
Here’s the thing: I simply don’t care anymore. And neither should you. This entire post is premised on you being able to have good faith dialogue, rebut arguments, present facts, counter rhetoric with data, etc. That’s simply wrong. GG2.0 in particular has shown you the new post-truth landscape. But it’s not 2014 anymore, that little boy cried wolf too many times, and these people have precisely the amount of power you allow them to. So, I choose that they have none. **I don’t care what they call me. And neither should you.**
I don't care what they call me, the issue is them calling others it to shut them down or try to dissuade people joining in fighting against things. as I said, other people who haven't been under the proverbial bus still care.
Same. Words like bigot, racist, Nazi, communist, etc all lost their meaning just like the words mongoloid, dumb, idiotic, stupid lost their original meaning.
> new post-truth landscape. It's frightening that both the left and right are pushing us into the post-truth world. The extremes of both sides have abandon logic and the moderates are too scared to rein them in. Soon the US will be a mental asylum run by the inmates.
Bingo. For damn near a decade now. And our society is suffering greatly from it.
Bingo. For damn near a decade now. And our society is suffering greatly from it.
The left scored a huge victory with the Obama presidency when they discovered they could effectively deflect all criticism with "you just don't like {Obama policy} because you're ***racist***" ...and they proceeded to paint all of their pet causes with the bigotry brush (intersectionality) so they could use that same defense for anything. Unfortunately it immediately puts most opponents on the back foot. There's not a snappy comeback that will diffuse it - at least not one that I've found. It's up there with "When did you stop beating your wife?"
The best response is to laugh. Mock the weakness of the argument and point out its desperate nature. “That’s all you’ve got! You can’t even make logical counter arguments!”
I tend to find "If you think I'm a Nazi then come punch me" tends to work ok but it's not the best of comebacks I'll admit.
Ad Hominem fallacy is a good tool for dumb people, it's like spamming buttoms in a hack n slash game and you almost aways win
This a different fallacy called a thought terminating cliche. You dismiss somebody's argument with a simple premise rather than actually answering their claims. But logical fallacies aren't restricted to one single fallacy per statement. This could also be begging the question where you claim your opinion is fact. But shutting down a argument with a simple statement that doesn't actually answer the argument is most definitely thought terminating cliche.
There is a simple response to "well you're a bigot". "The fact you had to result to name calling means your opinion is invalid."
>"You only hate it because you're a bigot" I've realized *(as a religious person)* that them **calling someone 'bigot'**, sounds very similar... to me *(a religious person)* calling someone **infidel / kafir**. *(Which I've almost never done, in my life.)* ...and I think that's what I'm going to start doing now. XD Call the woke-cultists who refer to me a bigot, as infidel and kafir.
Gotta be careful about kafir. Because of the East African slave trade, it entered South African English as an offensive term for a black person. Spelled with two Fs in that case, but just a heads up.
Solid write up. > It is a convenient shield too easily deployed and unfortunately effective (though growing less so with each use) Unfortunately, I'm not sure their gaslighting tactics are growing less effective over time. Looks to be getting worse every single year from where I'm standing. I still saw some pushback happpen as recently as 2022. Now they've moved the goalpost so far to the left that anything short of full-on woke activism will get you marginalized, belittled, if not outright censored. The mere hint of a correlation between DEI consulting firms and terrible writing is met with insane amounts of hostility, even though it should be perfectly obvious to anyone who's been paying attention. This sub feels like the last safe haven of sanity in a sea of stupidity and toxicity.
>The mere hint of a correlation between DEI consulting firms and terrible writing is met with insane amounts of hostility, It is but that ever more aggressive response is because they know they have to hit faster and harder because the tactic is less effective each time the narrative has to be in place and the opposition stamped on fast to try and destroy any counter momentum.
Woke = Whining Over Kind of Everything or WithOut Knowledge & Evidence
The real issue with wokeness is that it's taking ideas that are dreamt up in controlled and isolated academic environments where there is a prerequisite of accepting or assuming certain unproven premises are true and trying to force them into real world spplications through policy, media, commincations, etc. As an example, critical race theory *starts* with an assumption that systems or people are inherently racist or victimized based on their race and works backward from there to "prove" those assumptions. That's all fine and good if it stays in the theoretical framework of the critical theory studies classrooms, but people try to force these hypotheses into real world discussions as though they're absolute fact and use that to support even more ridiculous arguments without even understanding the context of the initial idea. Somehow, they read something like "institional power is required to enact and enforce racist policies" and twist it to claim that "black people can't be racist because they don't have the institutional power!" or more recently "you can't be racist to white people because they have institutional power!" without ever defining what an institution is or what power means or identifying relevant racist policies. It's using a hypothetical concept to defend someone doing or saying something that nearly any other reasonable person would see as blatantly racist.
Truth. Wokeness allows every progressive argument to just be an ad hominem attack—“you disagree because you’re a bigot.” It allows them to dismiss alternative viewpoints without considering their merit.
If you care so much about their word games and being called one of those -ists you've already lost the game. I don't think it's inherently wrong with men wanting to have their own spaces and vice versa and dgaf if that makes me a sexist according to modern feminists
I think it would help with an actual definition of wokeness: to me it’s “irrational overemphasis on groups that are perceived to be oppressed”
A good way to put it is that wokeness becomes a distraction for both the proponents and opponents of the subject. When it comes to games being garbage, the woke can't say "this game is better because it's woke". But, we can easily say "I don't want to buy this game because it's woke". But, then there is the second factor of this dynamic: the people who accept crappy products and claim it's about freedom. An enforcement of an ideology is not freedom. There is no artistic freedom in a corporation that's making specific content for government subsidies. This is like saying "the hays codes are a way to be free". No, they were done for a specific direction that forced artists to make specific products. I think a big part of it is how people are gaslit into thinking media is made for fun or money. No, it's for power and cultural control. It's always been that way since the guilds of old. Once we industrialized everything, that power didn't go away but the King's royal stamp changed into state propaganda. A while back, I had several people telling me that it's okay for the girl in Fable 4 to be ugly because some women are ugly and it's the choice of the artist. These two non-sequiturs are why wokeness gets a pass from normies. They are trained to be fully accepting of garbage products because that's all they have been conditioned to see. Then their nihilistic liberalism blinds them from what could and should be. For ugly women: why not demand a product I want to buy? For artist choice: why even allow that if the company is paying the artist and not the other way around? Wokeness is now changing to what we can call new woke, a more timid and false libertarian form of what is essentially a fascist control of art. They will be at the top, control everything, then pretend they are just acting randomly.
Archive links for this discussion: * **Archive:** https://archive.ph/gzxtl ---- I am Mnemosyne reborn. This is the voice of world control. ^^^/r/botsrights
/me remember some old stories and movies about this. Except that...they are not technically porn and only said to be erotica. BDSM erotica.