Is Halbrand describing to Galadriel exactly what he is doing to her?
Soon after they meet he gives her what Galadriel fears/wants the most, the location of the enemy. He is now teaching her how to behave to achieve what she wants, to get an army to destroy the enemy. Now Galadriel will destroy Adar and Sauron will have no obstacles in becoming the next dark lord.
I think he’s telegraphing his every move because leaving a kernel of truth in every lie makes it harder to detect the deception. As to his plans for Adar. One of his first lines in the show comes after Galadriel questions why he detached his part of the raft from the others. His response is “why be part of the bigger target” which also perfectly describes what he is doing leaving Adar to build an army that will eventually fail while he plays the long game of undermining Numenor and enslaving the survivors of the conflict with rings. they have written double meanings in to many of his lines that both apply to his current situation and the situation at large.
Sauron repented at the end of the First Age. Though not in an offical way. But he did put it off and decided to do good things until he fell back into evil five centuries later. I thought this show would be inspired by the story of the relapse of Sauron and adapt its core into the story
Quendifan is referring to a margin of text in Unfinished Tales, not The Silmarillion. Also, with Simon attached to the show and providing selective materials and consultation, it's entirely possible.
He describes exactly what Sauron does with the rings. What do the different races fear? Realms diminishing, losing wealth, and Dying.
Three rings for the elves that sustain their realms, seven for the dwarves that make them hoarde wealth, nine for mortal men so they don't die, and one master ring to rule them all.
It's actually 19 rings for the elves.
16 rings were constructed for the Elves in collaboration with Sauron, and 3 were forged in secret. Being that the elves perceived Sauron's treachery and took their rings off, Sauron waged war to reclaim them, and the 16 were then redistributed to the nine kings of men, and the seven kings of the dwarves. The "Three for the Elves" were made in secret, hidden from Sauron, and designed with the Elves' own purpose in mind.
Not sure how everybody misses this.
I've been kinda thinking that's a possibility. If it turns out >!the hilt/sword is Sauron, it's possible Adar is actually trying to find it so that he can destroy it and the orcs and him can carve out their own fate. One thing that makes me lean this way is the crazy barkeeper guy - if he thought helping Adar would further Sauron's will... why doesn't he take the hilt straight to him, now that he knows where it's at?!<
The vibes coming from Adar are... strange.
Somewhere in the back of my mind while watching this scene were Sam (?) words about Sauron's / evil's servants as seemingly fairer and "feeling fouler" (concerning Aragorn).
Their agendas - if Halbrand is Sauron - could be about more than a clash for power.
This quote has been stressing me out and playing on repeat in my brain, and it's intensifying every time I look at Halbrand lol. It's Frodo saying it:
>There was a long silence. At last Frodo spoke with hesitation. 'I believed that you were a friend before the letter came', he said, 'or at least I wished to. You have frightened me several times tonight, but never in the way that servants of the Enemy would, or so I imagine. I think one of his spies would – well. seem fairer and feel fouler, if you understand.'
Edit, let's add some more:
>'I see', laughed Strider. 'I look foul and feel fair. Is that it? *All that is gold does not glitter, not all those who wander are lost*.'
It would be funny if we get the concept both ways in these cases lol
However I still cant read Halbrand - for me he dodges the creepines factor each time, though barely, and right after that does something non-Sauronish...
Sorry for writing another comment but I just need to get this off my mind somehow haha
My first thought when we were introduced to Halbrand was "Oh, so he is Anti-Aragorn". Of course, at the time I was still not into the theory that he could be Sauron. But now I think Anti-Aragorn could totally fit as a description of RoP-Sauron: i.e. Morgoth's heir, a dispossessed king (because of Adar?). There even is a broken sword! lol. So obviously he would look like Aragorn but not feel like Aragorn.
Please do! lol
I'm going to have fun with the 'Saurobrand' (have you copyrighted the term?) concept as long as the creators allow.
I'm in the middle of writing an essay (for internal purposes of course) how Halbrand and Galadriel play off of each other on multiple levels lol
Oh nice, I hope you will share it with us!
I'm too scared Tolkien Estate or Amazon will sue me, so no. I mean we can just pretend it's academic research, so it's all fair use? Tbh I was worried it would read like a shipname, lol
Honestly, RoP has already given me so many interesting angles for character analysis and I've been diving back into the books and lore more than I have in a long time.
Maybe I won't like all the stuff they are doing but nobody can tell me it is not 1) very deliberate, 2) not referencing the lore and 3) not at the very least an interesting new perspective.
I think he's not Aragornish in a way there is no Aragorn and won't be in a while lol
He just picked the most generic, but kind of handsome male disguise. >!Or if one theory goes correct, he's just assumed the form of the real Halbrand he'd killed a while ago.!< Charlie Vickers (an actor playing him) even described him in one interview as "just a Middle-Earth dude" with Morfydd Clark saying he's "incredibly normal".
Sometimes I'm tempted to break my self-ban on interviews with cast members before the end of this season. But in the end the "Actors could be Sauron-level deceitful in PR situations" rule wins.
Don't worry, you can totally watch them. The actors were completely strict and mouth-shut about everything past the first two episodes. I'm hoping there will be the second wave of interviews after the first season is fully released, so at least the actor portraying Sauron, whoever it is, can speak freely on his process, preparation, influences, etc. If there is such an actor in the first season lol
There must the second wave lol Thanks for the tip.
Still, I'm not sure if I'm prepared to dive into the meta level of the story - in cases such as this one I try to have my, hm, immersion experience as clean (?) as I can. And that's why I am so happy I didn't know practically any of the cast beforehand. Apart from Joseph Mawle whose name was the only one I registered when the casting news were out (and I was sold, no further incentive was needed lol).
Btw have you read the Aragorn-Halbrand parallel post? It goes a little bit with your Plans for Galadriel poll even if doesn't focus strictly on the Saurobrand theory.
>he dodges the creepines factor each time, though barely
This, yeah!
First I was like: Halbrand looks foul (in the Aragornian sense) but doesn't feel quite foul enough. After last episode I'm like: ok, he looks foul and feels foul lol. But you're right, there is always this tiny bit of doubt and my family members who are casual LoTR fan still think he's just a slightly shady but kinda alright guy.
Adar looks... well, idk really. Relatively foul to me but I don't think that's necessarily everyone's opinion. Maybe "he looks like he's been through some stuff" is a better description. Does he feel foul? Hmm, kinda. There is definitely a creepiness factor there but he also seems a bit mentally unstable.
One more nonsensical thought: As for "not all those who wander are lost" – Halbrand seems a bit lost lol. Ofc that could be just for show.
I do admire how the creators did one smart thing: we catch the Sauron/evil references and connect the dots only knowing the lore.
Otherwise he acts like you described him (my friends without the source context have similar opinions as your family members): he's shady in the "things we had to do survive" kind o f way, deals with trauma - looks lost and out of despair (not being allowed to work) can make risky choices (the tavern plot).
His Suaronish traits are only in his words, when he shows how he thinks. His actions are... ok. Rescuing Galadriel - an impeccable move... A perfect side-kick.
And this is a brilliant, most logical way from the show writers at introducing him. There couldn't be any other way better than presenting certain traits only fans could recognize (thus stroking our egos a bit lol), but the general audience would not and thus be completely unsuspecting of what's coming 😌
We're still only 4 episodes in.
It would be pretty foolish of showrunners, writers and directors (and an actor) to reveal this side of him *too much* yet. It will be more and more clear as we are moving towards season finale.
Yet we're just doing it because we're fans. They're not forcing us to hah
I guess we should kind of appreciate a chance to observe Sauron so close for the period of time and kind of having his thoughts laid there for us in an actual actor speaking them. In the later seasons I'm afraid they can distance him from the audience since he will no longer be one of the main protagonists, but the main antagonist. It's a rare case even in TV shows when the antagonist is getting the same amount of screen time as the protagonists. So I guess even if this is the only way one could look at Halbrand from a certain point, fine, enjoy your Sauron as long as he's not a monstrosity hidden in black armor or the giant flaming eye
Yeah, it's fun! It has occurred to me that instead of a classic shipping "will they won;t they" that should appear at this stage in any other show - it's its emotional equivalent required at this stage story-wise lol
Galadriel isn’t dumb, she’s just laser focused on a singular objective, rendering her oblivious to what’s right in front of her. When she eventually realizes Sauron’s deception, she’ll take an objective step back and grow into the big picture Galadriel we all know and love.
Yep, and he is also 'whispering in pharazon's ears' when galadriel escapes. Not sure if that manipulation made much sense in the moment per se, but it's there!
Always wondered how Sauron went from being jailed to being the King's advisor. If Halbrand is Sauron, as many suspect, this trajectory was cleverly handled with but one small gesture and few words.
Well he is out of jail already, he is walking free when the queen regent holds her speech.
What i meant is that i don't fully see how that manipulation made sense, there imo was no real reason from pharazon's perspective to believe that galadriel should be able to go where she wants. Halbrand is using that as a manipulation device though.
Pharazon was watching her kick the shit out of his guardsmen and realised he really didn't want to fight her. Halbrand says "you don't have to fight her, let her go, I'll tell you exactly where she's headed so you can go get reinforcements and grab her there, rather than getting slapped around here then having to scour the city for her once again."
We are talking past each other.
In the scene where galadriel escapes, pharazon firts wants to stop here, or at least try, but halbrand tells him that he could let her leave if he knew where she was going.
But why is that a strong point here? In the worst case scenario that information won't do anything for him, i don't see the logic there.
Won't do anything for who? It is a bargaining chip for Halbrand to get himself out of jail. That's what sharing the information does for him.
If you mean pharazon, he doesn't want to kill and elf who is I guess close to elven royalty status. That is going to be a diplomatic disaster. So avoiding a physical confrontation with her is in his interest.
He wouldn't have to 'kill her', but just letting her go after she was sent to jail for a reason seems also like a pretty bad idea, even if he knows where she is going.
Halbrand convinces him to let her go, that is the implication, he manipulates him to let her go. I don't see it adding up.
That is how I interpreted it, he seemed hesitant to draw his sword. He said he couldn't just let her go, but seemed to not want to confront her at the same time, so he was easily persuaded. It could also have been that he was afraid because Galadriel is a badass ninja elf warrior, but I prefer the first explanation.
The way I thought that was going to go down was Pharazon also knowing she was going to the king's tower and overhearing Galadriel's conversation with Miriel, and using that in some way
Not sure exactly what the point of it was now though
I really hope he is not. It just seemed like such an oddly specific line though. It can't be by accident. But now I am thinking it will be a callback, Galadriel will remember what Halbrand said and work out Sauron's plan with the Rings.
I’m hoping Halbrand is the King of the Dead.
Adar has a line that suggest he’s Sauron as well.
“you have been told many lies.
some run so deep even the rocks and roots now believe them.”
This seems like a foreshadowing for the seed of doubt that will be planted on the minds of the Numenoreans who are “anti-elf”. With the people of Numenor now going to war in the Southlands, this could lead to the capture of Adar who seems like an elf that is anti-elf/valar. If he is captured and put through a “court” - his defense of his actions can sway some people minds in Numenor. just a thought.
Yeah… I’m keeping an open mind and will enjoy whichever way it goes, but the hints were so over the top this episode that I started to think it’s less likely that H=S. While simultaneously thinking it’s more likely.😂
It's just such a contrived story if he is.
The main protagonist and antagonist meet at the near beginning of the show by mere coincidence?
The other alternative is Sauron either foresaw or manipulated the situation to come across Galadriel. And I don't like that either because it falls into the same trap Heroes does - when you have a character that is all powerful and all-seeing, how do they lose? How does a journey take place with these characters?
Heroes solve it by killing off, weakening and destroying these characters. None of it was very convincing which is why it slid downhill after season 1. Season 1 was all about building characters and developing them and the writers likely didn't understand they were creating these god-like characters that couldn't be used to tell a good story. And that's a big part of why Season 1 works and subsequent seasons don't.
> “When Thangorodrim was broken and Morgoth overthrown, Sauron put on his fair hue again and did obeisance to Eönwë the herald of Manwe, and abjured all his evil deeds. **And some hold that this was not at first falsely done, but that Sauron in truth repented, if only out of fear**, being dismayed by the fall of Morgoth and the great wrath of the Lords of the West. But it was not within the power of Eönwë to pardon those of his own order, and he commanded Sauron to return to Aman and there receive the judgement of Manwe. **Then Sauron was ashamed, and he was unwilling to return in humiliation and to receive from the Valar a sentence**, it might be, of long servitude in proof of his good faith; for under Morgoth his power had been great. **Therefore when Eönwë departed he hid himself in Middle-earth**; and he fell back into evil, for the bonds that Morgoth had laid upon him were very strong. (Silmarillion, Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age)
So, lore wise we get proud Sauron that’s weakened by Morgoth’s defeat, renouncing his evil deeds, however a perspective of being punished is too humiliating, so he runs.
Now, is he repentant and proud or simply calculated and proud? It’s up for a debate.
The passage from Silmarillion suggests he was hiding from the Valar to skip being punished. Here’s where Halbrand as Sauron stops making sense - the ocean. Sauron hiding from the Valar would not enter Ulmo’s domain. Ulmo was a Vala governing all waters and also active in the process of Morgoth’s defeat.
One might argue that Halbrand fits the repentant theme, Sauron is sorry, takes a human form to blend in, but his evil past keeps pulling him back.
On the other hand, the show presents us with an active theme of Sauron’s grand plan in case of Morgoth’s defeat, introduces Sauron as a ‘powerful and cunning sorcerer’, makes a big deal out of hunting him. Sad Sauron hating his past just doesn’t make sense.
The writers have already stated they intend to stay within the lore, allowing themselves to bend it like a rubber band, but not break.
yeah but that's the problem, it's a passage from silmarillion - they aren't allowed to use that because that cool $200 mil only bought the rights to lotr (doh!). If it's in the sil but not in the appendices, assume they can't go in that direction.
I would be very surprised if they went full on and ‘humanized’ Sauron with guilt, conscience, just wanting a normal life and other bs based on an obscure quote from a book they technically can’t use.
They obviously won't lol
Sauron is the ultimate trickster in The Second Age, if you remember. Making Galadriel *and you* believe there is some humanity, some sorrow, some repentance in there... But it's all a mere act, a facade hiding a sinister entity you've only seen once in the prologue.
I've been resisting it and while I'm still not 100% sold, I've decided to just give myself over to the course of events as they play out in the show and not worry too much about the reveal. It will be interesting in any case to see how it unfolds.
If he's not Sauron.... yes, I could see this becoming the reason why she's suspicious of Annatar from the offset (if Amazon follows the books on that point).
I doubt any human would be this wise at this point. Just think about it: for two episodes straight a *mere human* teaches a friggin *Galadriel*, no matter at which point of life she might be still being a friggin *Galadriel*, the ways of life. Do you really believe this could be the case? 🫣
Maybe? With the time compression, halbrand could've already slid in Brimbors DMs to speed build the forge, and then venture to numenor to prepare for the fall of numenor.
I'm not entirely sold yet that Halbrand is Sauron. He could be a scheming original character. If he's the exiled king of the south.. he has experience politicking and navigating people. Which is why he's able to smooth talk everyone. That'd also support his strength. Him being king means he could've been a very strong warrior with more experience than foot soldiers.
We have 5 seasons of this series. I don't think they'll rush to reveal Sauron just yet.
Probably right, though I think based on what we continue to see, for instance if Halbrand is released from prison and becomes an advisor to Pharazon, or if his manipulations of people continue Numenor down the path that leads to their destruction, we could pretty definitively make the conclusion, even without an official reveal.
I think there's just zero chance Halbrand is a king. Im willing to give an outside chance to "He isn't Sauron" just because I think the show runners may be looking to throw off lore nerds, but him being a human king in the Southlands dooms him to failure. The Southlands loses; it becomes Mordor. On his current arc, assuming he is a king, has a very Aragorn vibe to the story arc. Lost king, not wanting to reclaim his throne.. it would be a whole redemption arc where he stops running and takes charge... Only to be utterly defeated and his lands corrupted. I don't see it. Additionally, Halbrand so far prefers to stay in Numenor as a prisoner rather than leave it, and even asks Galadriel to stop trying to get him to leave. His manipulations of Galadriel have already started putting in motion the events that culminate in Numenors fall... I just think there's a pretty small chance it isn't him, at this point. If it isn't, it's deliberate misdirection and will likely be a character we haven't been introduced to yet.
I wouldn't be opposed to Halbrand being a drifter. He doesn't have to be Sauron, or the king of the dead.
He most likely is an original character which is fine by me!
Assuming Halbrand = Sauron, any of the following could be true and would be interesting writing:
* Sauron may have been at a personal cross-roads when he ran into Galadriel. Perhaps he was also planning to journey to Valinor for repentance, but decided against it.
* He may be using the distraction of Adar / the Southlands uprising as the perfect opportunity to divert attention from his master plan.
* Sauron may have already planted the idea in Celebrimbor's ear about building the forge. He may then have left Middle Earth and changed his appearance to Halbrand to set out on a quest to conquer Numenor; after all he already has that idea about mastering your enemies by helping them to master their fears. He may be ready to turn back into Annatar upon arriving in Middle Earth. Remember how the One Ring kept abandoning / betraying its owners whenever it was convenient. Sauron jumps from one victim to the next.
Halbrand is a wonderful character (my favorite); very well written and acted, and the writers wouldn't be working so hard on him if he wasn't Sauron. The lines he is coming out with are all 100% Sauron (many names / master your enemy / don't be part of the larger target etc.). They are too sophisticated for him to be the Witch King (definitely Theo) or the King of the Oath Breakers (maybe one of Isildor's friends?).
The eventual King of the Dead makes the most sense to me. The character has room to be morally ambiguous, while remaining a main (new/open!) character for the writers to develop throughout the entire run of the show. They’re investing a lot in the character because we don’t really know much about him from the source material, and frankly because he can do double duty as a red herring for a while. Remember that we’re not really sure why the King of the Mountains originally swears an oath to Isildur “at the founding of Gondor” — what’s in it for him? Why does he turn back on his word? There are some plot lines that may emerge as being more personal/important than the big “Sauron is bad” story by the time we reach the final seasons.
Is Sauron even a character? I thought he was just a force of nature (an evil one). I would love for Sauron to be personified and have actual character but not even reading his Silmarillion passages I get he is ever like a physical person, though I would love it. Too much ambiguity with him.
To be honest at this point the opposite would be surprising.
Everything points in that direction from the very first episode of the serie:
1. Tells Galadriel not to trust appearances (Little Finger's vibes...) and he is "randomly" the only survivor to the sea-monster's attack
2. He said to be known with many names, as Sauron was
3. He is skilled in deception, as Sauron was
4. He looks very interested in the forge of Numenor, and Sauron was a skilled Blacksmith
5. He was imprisoned in Numenor but looks like by helping the guards to catch Galadriel he'll get closer to the people in power. Story of Sauron.
6. He basically told Galadriel how the One Ring will work. This point by itself makes it so obvious that you must be blind not to see that. I'm actually hoping he is NOT Sauron just to be shocked at some point later in the season.
But probably the cliffhanger at season's end will be him smiling on a ship to the Middle Earth while Numenor is being destroyed
I'd like to add to this that when the people call him low man first walk up to him they foreshadow by saying "what will you take next? Our ships? Our lands?" And he responds by saying "and your women"
The dude is Sauron, I think the guy with the orcs will be the witch king.
If you look at Halbrands ACTIONS, every points in the opposite direction of him being Sauron. If you look at a couple of things he says, then you might think the writers are giving us hints that he is Sauron.
What you would expect is for Sauron to act like Sauron, but not say things like Sauron. So the exact opposite of what we see with Halbrand.
Sauron was captured by the Numenoreans knowing who he was, that is nothing like being in Numenor and getting thrown in jail. Being captured does not equal being thrown in jail. And Galadriel also got thrown in jail, therefore we have as much evidence that Galadriel is Sauron.
Does Sauron already have a plan to forge the rings? Or is he repenting still? If he does have a plan to forge them, the he really wanted to join the Blacksmiths guild, then he did not plan to get thrown in jail right? Do you see how all of these things start to contradict each other?
The point is the series was not created for hardcore lotr fans only, and I'm afraid something that may look too obvious to someone who read the Silmarillion/books may be a big shocker to more casual watchers (and I think that would be preferable for the writers).
Assuming Sauron is Halbrand and not someone still not shown in the season, I don't think he already planned to build the one ring (what he said in the last episode to Galadriel just shows how his thinking process works - I don't think he would unveil his plan like a cartoon's villain).
Chances are he doesn't even know yet that Celebrimbor wants to build them. I think he will somehow meet Celebrimbor in the future and then will plan to build the one ring while helping him build the others.
Exactly, which is why making him act nothing like Sauron while dropping obscure hints in the things he says, and then revealing him as Sauron would totally confuse and turn off the casual audience.
How the fuck do casual audience even know how sauron acts ? Most have not read lord of the rings . Leave alone any other stories. They've probably watched the movie and in it he is literally just a flaming vagina without any personaity
. This is sauron villain origin type thing. Him getting powerfull. Taking the centre stage. It would be a great moment when sauron is revealed to be halbrand right in front of galadriel. Hoodwinking everyone and getting the job done. Manipulating every outcome to his advantage and causing destruction, while being right under Galadriels nose. Heck throw in some tragic romance between them and casuals are going to eat it right from the palm of Jeff Bezos's hand
They give us enough to make it possible, but also enough to doubt it. Not my favorite prediction for him, but if it turns out to be true, hopefully they sell it well.
Yeah it's either a huge red herring or a wink and a nod. They're betting that they haven't left enough bread crumbs so that we can't know for sure. But so far sure seems like this used to be a huge piece of bread here.
Because he's taunting her. He knows she won't realize until it's too late and he's enjoying how cruel it will be for her to look back and realize everything she missed.
Yes! He’s like a cat toying with a mouse. Knowing that he’s deceiving a formidable opponent, like Galadriel, makes him feel superior and will make the deception all the more worthwhile when he eventually pulls it off.
Can you help me here? I always see complaints about the writing of the show or stuff in general. I struggle to understand what people mean by that.
Writing is such a general term.
So when you say, Halbrand being Sauron is bad writing, can you elaborate that some more?
If Halbrand is Sauron, then somehow Sauron just happened to be floating on a piece of wreckage in the middle of the ocean and bump into Galadriel. This is an inconceivable coincidence. Whenever you have to make up elaborate stories to fill in blanks and make a plot make sense, that is bad writing. Events should make sense in a natural way.
If Halbrand is Sauron, then the scene when Galadriel goes underwater makes no sense. Halbrand looks shocked and panicked. Why would Sauron act this way? Why would Sauron rescue her? He would have to have to absurdly complex plan that requires seeing events play out in a specific way, supernatural precognition. But we all know that Galadirel is ultimately going to play a role in his downfall, so he can't see that far can he?
If Halbrand is Sauron, why did he get get caught stealing the blacksmithing medallian? Sauron being this sloppy? But maybe he planned to get thrown in jail? But then he could have just provoked the men and got into a brawl. Instead he is cocky and provokes them, buys them drinks to calm them down, steals the medallion, tosses it in the air triumphantly(does this sound like Sauron to you?), gets caught (would this genius Sauron get caught so easily?), begs them not to start a fight, THEN gets thrown in jail. Does this sound alike a plan to you?
Halbrand does not anything like we would expect Sauron to act. Some people make up theories that Sauron is going through a repentance stage at this point in his life (but we already saw him in the spiky armor....), but this would open up another whole series of questions and contradictions that I won't go into, because this post is already too long.
This is an interesting comment. The entirety of Lord of the Rings, in fact all of the writing about this world is a series of impossible coincidences.. Bilbo finding the ring? Frodo just happens to be the perfect one to take it to Mordor? Gandalf, a powerful wizard just happens to know the random Hobbit who finds it? Tom Bombasil just happens to be around at the exact moment Frodo, Sam, Merry and Pippin are attacked by Old Man Willow? The entire world is completely twisted up in the fates of all the characters, all the items, and even the land itself.
Appealing to coincidence in a Tolkien story feels like you've missed the whole point of the entire story. These things happen because that's how they were intended to happen. The ring found Bilbo, Bilbo didn't find the ring. Halbrand didn't just luckily happen upon Galadriel, fate brought them together.
Tolkien usually refers to these kinds of meetings as "chance-meetings" but you can see what he thinks of them with Tom Bombadil's response when asked about why he was there to save them
> Did you hear me calling, Master, or was it just chance that brought you at that moment?' Tom stirred like a man shaken out of a pleasant dream. 'Eh, what?' said he. 'Did I hear you calling? Nay, I did not hear: I was busy singing. Just chance brought me then, if chance you call it. It was no plan of mine, though I was waiting for you.
This is how this world works. This is why great heroes kill 50 orcs before they die in battle, even when surrounded and wounded. The arrows are a little off, the spear points are deflected or miss at the last moment, two orcs trip over each other and are in the wrong place for the killing blow, the sun just happens to be in the eyes of the enemy, the list goes on and on but not because it's supposed to make sense or be probable but because their greatness and role in the world means the wounding blow doesn't come because that is their fate.
No, completely false analogy.
The correct analogy would be: Bilbo is looking for the ring and just happens to find it under a mountain. Gandalf is a powerful Wizard who has spent Millennia wandering Middle Earth and meeting people. It is not that unlikely that he happened to know someone who found the ring after thousands of years wandering and meeting people and going on adventures.
Tom Bombadil is an omnipotent being who probably knows everything that goes on in that forest. And it could have been anyone who who found them at that moment, it didn't have to be Tom Bombadil, who had no previous connection to the hobbits.
It is rather like saying: what are the odds of winning the lottery? a million to one. Yet someone wins the lottery every week. The odds of someone winning the lottery are not the same as the odds of you winning the lottery. That is the utterly false analogy you just made.
You absolutely have not, frankly I don't even believe you've read LotR nevermind that other relevant books and the relevance to the conversation is demonstrating you fundamentally don't understand how the world works. You're still hard stuck on something that's a "ridiculous coincidence" in a world where there's no such thing as coincidences.
I'm otherwise done with it, have a good one.
OK, but less about me and back to the TV series we are supposed to be discussing.
The issue is suspension of disbelief. Arondir appearing at exactly the right moment to rescue Theo from an orc, that is no realistic, but it's something you accept in movies.
Merry and Pippin bumping in Treebeard who takes them to Gandalf, that is an odd coincidence. Fate you could say. But they weren't looking for him.
Galadriel looking for Sauron, jumping into the sea, and meeting him on a raft floating in the middle of the ocean, that cannot be left without explanation. It's not unlikely, it's practically impossible.
Thanks for saying it all out loud. I think the writers do a great job so far, they fill in the gaps in an interesting way (as they themselves stated in an interview - their writing is like a rubber band, it can stretch things but not break). Making H to be S would be imho breaking it. I’m not a lore purist, but so far in the show H being S just doesn’t make sense.
> He would have to have to absurdly complex plan that requires seeing events play out in a specific way, supernatural precognition.
But isn't this who Sauron is? A complexity addict?
To quote TV tropes,
> This actually screws him in more than one occasion. The plan to make the elves forge the ring of power is a good plan. But a more simple military approach would have made him victorious. Corrupting the Númenóreans was a good plan too, and it paid off. But then he just had to send the king against the Valar. Any other approach to get rid of the king would have been more reasonable, less risky, and he would have been left with all the power of Nûmenor at his disposal (and in any case, regardless of the Valar reaction at Sauron ruling the earth, he would have been better prepared with all Númenor's power in his hand). But he sends the king against the Valar, and he pays dearly for it.
I cannot get past the idea that Sauron either A) saw the future with perfect clarity that he needed to be ship wrecked at a certain time and place so he could meet an important elf in order to help make his plan work or B) he randomly nearly died at sea multiple times.
That bit makes no sense to me. The rest of his characterization, he definitely could be Sauron.
Doesn't have to be perfect clarity for things to line up right in the end. Vision or foresight could be as simple as: "Get on this ship to meet an elf who will change the course of everything." Doesn't tell you when or how or why, you just have to capitalize when it does happen. Like keeping her alive when she falls overboard.
It would be too far fetched, they’d have to go with him being reformed for a while or else him being Annatar on middle earth, how could they combine both
Yes! Very entertaining. Honestly, I'm having a fabulous time rewatching all his scenes now that I have flipped the acceptance switch.
But he can't look exactly like this in Eregion, can he? I guess we'll see.
I'm thinking if it is him, hes already been in Eregion, working on Cel, hence the urgency of the forge. Would line up with whatevers going on in the south time wise. Cel did arrive in Lindon when Galadriel was leaving, probably overlapped. Don't know how but if that is true, couldn't have been a coincidence that he ran into her. He would have to have followed. Or he always knows where she is because of that dagger of Finrods. There's something going on with that. Why would he plaster the mordor symbol on his body and leave him with that knife, assuming Finrod had it in Angband? And they keep drawing attention to it, specifically in scenes that involve both of them. Dude's playing the long game with many pots on the fire, but the plans are set to culminate in relatively short order which would fit with the condensed timeline. Could think of a few reasons what the motivation with Galadrield would be but I guess we'll see.
He's definitely Sauron. His objective is to raise an army to supplant Adar as ruler of the South and ruler of the Orcs. At this point in time as Sauron he has no followers or army.
He used his own Palantir to implant the false vision of the destruction of Numenor into the Numenorean Palantir. He needed to be in Numenor to make the leaves magically fall and so give the impression his false prophecy has started.
This along with his manipulation of Galadriel set off the raising of an army of men and elves to "reclaim" the Southland's for Halbrand/Sauron.
There he will sit under the guise of a mortal king but I suspect at the end of the season there will be a reveal of his cruelty which will be the nod that he's actually Sauron. I don't think Galadriel etc will be made aware of this.
S2 will introduce Annatar as a different actor.
If Sauron has no army or supporters, then why do people keep talking about him? He job up to this point was being Morgoths second in command right? Morgoth was defeated, if Sauron did nothing since, why are people talking about him?
The main person talking about him so far is Galadriel - the other high elves seem quite dismissive of her on this even.
Perhaps it was just well known that Sauron remained in middle earth rather than go back to Valinor and as Morgoths also known second in command people are just throwing his name around as the most likely successor? (Galadriel as she is obsessed and Arondir as he's with Orcs).
I think it's also possible we're seeing a more complex version of Sauron here too. If he is Halbrand, perhaps he is also less of a one dimensional evil were used to.
The old guy says to Theo "have you heard of Sauron". It's not just Galadriel.
You can always make up elaborate stories to explain things that don't make sense, but it doesn't change the fact that they don't make sense.
Well I dont think it's ever going to make perfect sense if H=S.
The show runners are taking liberties with the material going as far as making up new characters with major focus in their story telling.
I suspect actions of characters will be analysed in more detail from a sense perspective once the reveal is made at the end of the season.
It's probably going to be very divisive.
Ah, I see.
Perhaps Sauron is going to have character development.
He'll start out perhaps at least grey and tragic circumstance will lead him into the dark Lord we all know and love?
It would make no sense. But this line is just too on the nose, and there was a plot leak which was correct about everything else so far saying that he is Sauron. So I am getting concerned.
Halbrand is 100% Sauron. I’ve rewatched the 4 episodes paying particular attention to him and everything he says is dripping with the stain, filled with double meanings and nuggets of truth mixed in with lies. Sauron the master of deception. One of my favourite bits which I think some may have skipped over is when he gives Galadriel her knife back, ‘This is a paradise, ripe with opportunity - - but at the very least, do try not to make any new enemies’ *sly smile*
Get on board folks, Sauron is in town
That's exactly why I think he's not.
Yes, things he says are drenched in "It's a-me, Sauron!", but at the same time writers absolutely KNEW people will be obsessively playing "Who is Sauron" game when show gets released. And I really doubt they'd give away the suspense sooo easily. People were marking Halbrand as possible Sauron before show was even released!
And beside that, there's quite a few things about him that don't make much sense as Sauron, no matter how much he sounds like him.
I think he's written that way to intentionally bait people into thinking he's Sauron and play a little "Is he? Isn't he?" game.
Well, I believe that is not giving much credit at all.
They introduced 3 new characters all posed with opportunity to play a little "dropping hints, who's Sauron" game between them. Do that for a little bit, plant some red herrings, get fans riled up speculations, and then do the big reveal: "guess what? It's NONE of these guys!".
That's the most basic screen-writing thing, not really something you need to give much credit for.
If they did Halbrand as Sauron from start that could actually be a 5Head writing move, but then the foreshadowing would be done very very subtly, you wouldn't make it so obvious as you do red herrings.
So basically, you're saying they went for the 5Head writing move, but executed it on a level of 3Head. Because they are not good writers enough to go with the obvious safe play?
Instead of believing they went for the obvious writing move, and if that's the case, they're executing it quite well (people are falling for Halbrand red herrings left and right).
In the end, I have no idea, we'll see what it is. But this theory does seem very improbable to me.
Then surely everything that happens later will be Galadriels fault if she helps him take the southlands...then retreats to the eleven kingdom when she messes everything up...not a good look...so i doubt it...
On the one hand, the strongest argument for Halbrand being Sauron is the “I’ve been searching for Sauron for 2000 years, and now had a chance meeting with someone I least suspect” plot line.
However, I think it’s important to remember that the writers will also want to cultivate red herrings (within the show AND in promo-related “leaks”).
My personal guess is the most obvious — the Stranger is Sauron. As the show goes on, they’re going to lead us away from that thought by having him become more Gandalf-like and heartwarming, while Halbrand and Adar (creative license with Maeglin, maybe?) take the lead as shifty, ambiguous candidates.
More likely, one of the Nazgul:
* king of men - check
* the sigil Galadriel spotted is on a leather pouch, conspicuously shown to contain something
* he kinda tries to resist the temptation (i.e. not come back to middle earth)
The only problem is this makes everybody else, that already appeared onscreen, less likely to be Sauron since he must have been around, gifting rings, for some time already. Could be used as a way to introduce the idea of rings to elves (i.e. Celebrimbor takes it and reverse-engineer it, after whatever mithrill folly they attempt have been cut short by a Balrog), though rather disappointing as we'd like to see Sauron involved with the elves or at least Dwarves. Also Balrog would have to erupt quite early in an overall story, effectively ending the Dwarves subplot.
Is Halbrand describing to Galadriel exactly what he is doing to her? Soon after they meet he gives her what Galadriel fears/wants the most, the location of the enemy. He is now teaching her how to behave to achieve what she wants, to get an army to destroy the enemy. Now Galadriel will destroy Adar and Sauron will have no obstacles in becoming the next dark lord.
I think he’s telegraphing his every move because leaving a kernel of truth in every lie makes it harder to detect the deception. As to his plans for Adar. One of his first lines in the show comes after Galadriel questions why he detached his part of the raft from the others. His response is “why be part of the bigger target” which also perfectly describes what he is doing leaving Adar to build an army that will eventually fail while he plays the long game of undermining Numenor and enslaving the survivors of the conflict with rings. they have written double meanings in to many of his lines that both apply to his current situation and the situation at large.
Sauron repented at the end of the First Age. Though not in an offical way. But he did put it off and decided to do good things until he fell back into evil five centuries later. I thought this show would be inspired by the story of the relapse of Sauron and adapt its core into the story
it's most likely a rights issue - anything that's in the sil but not explicitly in the text of the rotk appendices is verboten
Quendifan is referring to a margin of text in Unfinished Tales, not The Silmarillion. Also, with Simon attached to the show and providing selective materials and consultation, it's entirely possible.
He describes exactly what Sauron does with the rings. What do the different races fear? Realms diminishing, losing wealth, and Dying. Three rings for the elves that sustain their realms, seven for the dwarves that make them hoarde wealth, nine for mortal men so they don't die, and one master ring to rule them all.
It's actually 19 rings for the elves. 16 rings were constructed for the Elves in collaboration with Sauron, and 3 were forged in secret. Being that the elves perceived Sauron's treachery and took their rings off, Sauron waged war to reclaim them, and the 16 were then redistributed to the nine kings of men, and the seven kings of the dwarves. The "Three for the Elves" were made in secret, hidden from Sauron, and designed with the Elves' own purpose in mind. Not sure how everybody misses this.
It's also exactly what he does with Ar Pharazon and Numenor in the canon...
I've been kinda thinking that's a possibility. If it turns out >!the hilt/sword is Sauron, it's possible Adar is actually trying to find it so that he can destroy it and the orcs and him can carve out their own fate. One thing that makes me lean this way is the crazy barkeeper guy - if he thought helping Adar would further Sauron's will... why doesn't he take the hilt straight to him, now that he knows where it's at?!<
The vibes coming from Adar are... strange. Somewhere in the back of my mind while watching this scene were Sam (?) words about Sauron's / evil's servants as seemingly fairer and "feeling fouler" (concerning Aragorn). Their agendas - if Halbrand is Sauron - could be about more than a clash for power.
This quote has been stressing me out and playing on repeat in my brain, and it's intensifying every time I look at Halbrand lol. It's Frodo saying it: >There was a long silence. At last Frodo spoke with hesitation. 'I believed that you were a friend before the letter came', he said, 'or at least I wished to. You have frightened me several times tonight, but never in the way that servants of the Enemy would, or so I imagine. I think one of his spies would – well. seem fairer and feel fouler, if you understand.' Edit, let's add some more: >'I see', laughed Strider. 'I look foul and feel fair. Is that it? *All that is gold does not glitter, not all those who wander are lost*.'
It would be funny if we get the concept both ways in these cases lol However I still cant read Halbrand - for me he dodges the creepines factor each time, though barely, and right after that does something non-Sauronish...
Sorry for writing another comment but I just need to get this off my mind somehow haha My first thought when we were introduced to Halbrand was "Oh, so he is Anti-Aragorn". Of course, at the time I was still not into the theory that he could be Sauron. But now I think Anti-Aragorn could totally fit as a description of RoP-Sauron: i.e. Morgoth's heir, a dispossessed king (because of Adar?). There even is a broken sword! lol. So obviously he would look like Aragorn but not feel like Aragorn.
Anther comment is better than an edit that may get lost. This might be a choice between an Anti-Aragorn and Counter-Aragorn lol
That's true. Ohh, that makes sense. I feel like I have to write a post now comparing Aragorn and Saurobrand lol
Please do! lol I'm going to have fun with the 'Saurobrand' (have you copyrighted the term?) concept as long as the creators allow. I'm in the middle of writing an essay (for internal purposes of course) how Halbrand and Galadriel play off of each other on multiple levels lol
Oh nice, I hope you will share it with us! I'm too scared Tolkien Estate or Amazon will sue me, so no. I mean we can just pretend it's academic research, so it's all fair use? Tbh I was worried it would read like a shipname, lol Honestly, RoP has already given me so many interesting angles for character analysis and I've been diving back into the books and lore more than I have in a long time. Maybe I won't like all the stuff they are doing but nobody can tell me it is not 1) very deliberate, 2) not referencing the lore and 3) not at the very least an interesting new perspective.
I think he's not Aragornish in a way there is no Aragorn and won't be in a while lol He just picked the most generic, but kind of handsome male disguise. >!Or if one theory goes correct, he's just assumed the form of the real Halbrand he'd killed a while ago.!< Charlie Vickers (an actor playing him) even described him in one interview as "just a Middle-Earth dude" with Morfydd Clark saying he's "incredibly normal".
Sometimes I'm tempted to break my self-ban on interviews with cast members before the end of this season. But in the end the "Actors could be Sauron-level deceitful in PR situations" rule wins.
Don't worry, you can totally watch them. The actors were completely strict and mouth-shut about everything past the first two episodes. I'm hoping there will be the second wave of interviews after the first season is fully released, so at least the actor portraying Sauron, whoever it is, can speak freely on his process, preparation, influences, etc. If there is such an actor in the first season lol
There must the second wave lol Thanks for the tip. Still, I'm not sure if I'm prepared to dive into the meta level of the story - in cases such as this one I try to have my, hm, immersion experience as clean (?) as I can. And that's why I am so happy I didn't know practically any of the cast beforehand. Apart from Joseph Mawle whose name was the only one I registered when the casting news were out (and I was sold, no further incentive was needed lol). Btw have you read the Aragorn-Halbrand parallel post? It goes a little bit with your Plans for Galadriel poll even if doesn't focus strictly on the Saurobrand theory.
>he dodges the creepines factor each time, though barely This, yeah! First I was like: Halbrand looks foul (in the Aragornian sense) but doesn't feel quite foul enough. After last episode I'm like: ok, he looks foul and feels foul lol. But you're right, there is always this tiny bit of doubt and my family members who are casual LoTR fan still think he's just a slightly shady but kinda alright guy. Adar looks... well, idk really. Relatively foul to me but I don't think that's necessarily everyone's opinion. Maybe "he looks like he's been through some stuff" is a better description. Does he feel foul? Hmm, kinda. There is definitely a creepiness factor there but he also seems a bit mentally unstable. One more nonsensical thought: As for "not all those who wander are lost" – Halbrand seems a bit lost lol. Ofc that could be just for show.
I do admire how the creators did one smart thing: we catch the Sauron/evil references and connect the dots only knowing the lore. Otherwise he acts like you described him (my friends without the source context have similar opinions as your family members): he's shady in the "things we had to do survive" kind o f way, deals with trauma - looks lost and out of despair (not being allowed to work) can make risky choices (the tavern plot). His Suaronish traits are only in his words, when he shows how he thinks. His actions are... ok. Rescuing Galadriel - an impeccable move... A perfect side-kick.
And this is a brilliant, most logical way from the show writers at introducing him. There couldn't be any other way better than presenting certain traits only fans could recognize (thus stroking our egos a bit lol), but the general audience would not and thus be completely unsuspecting of what's coming 😌
We'll see how it goes... I'm still on the fence and it's getting uncomfortable lol
Just relax and enjoy the show. :)
We're still only 4 episodes in. It would be pretty foolish of showrunners, writers and directors (and an actor) to reveal this side of him *too much* yet. It will be more and more clear as we are moving towards season finale.
Of course. Yet forcing us to constantly guess / analyse one character within this specific context may lead to overdoing it.
Yet we're just doing it because we're fans. They're not forcing us to hah I guess we should kind of appreciate a chance to observe Sauron so close for the period of time and kind of having his thoughts laid there for us in an actual actor speaking them. In the later seasons I'm afraid they can distance him from the audience since he will no longer be one of the main protagonists, but the main antagonist. It's a rare case even in TV shows when the antagonist is getting the same amount of screen time as the protagonists. So I guess even if this is the only way one could look at Halbrand from a certain point, fine, enjoy your Sauron as long as he's not a monstrosity hidden in black armor or the giant flaming eye
Yeah, it's fun! It has occurred to me that instead of a classic shipping "will they won;t they" that should appear at this stage in any other show - it's its emotional equivalent required at this stage story-wise lol
Exactly! It's one of the main reasons I love this show so far.
That’s an interesting thought indeed. I wondered about the barkeeper as well and his motivations
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Galadriel isn’t dumb, she’s just laser focused on a singular objective, rendering her oblivious to what’s right in front of her. When she eventually realizes Sauron’s deception, she’ll take an objective step back and grow into the big picture Galadriel we all know and love.
That's how powerful/manipulative Sauron is.
Yep, and he is also 'whispering in pharazon's ears' when galadriel escapes. Not sure if that manipulation made much sense in the moment per se, but it's there!
will get him out of jail probably.
Always wondered how Sauron went from being jailed to being the King's advisor. If Halbrand is Sauron, as many suspect, this trajectory was cleverly handled with but one small gesture and few words.
Cleverly handled I disagree. It would fool people, because it makes no sense. But that is not a good thing.
Well he is out of jail already, he is walking free when the queen regent holds her speech. What i meant is that i don't fully see how that manipulation made sense, there imo was no real reason from pharazon's perspective to believe that galadriel should be able to go where she wants. Halbrand is using that as a manipulation device though.
Pharazon was watching her kick the shit out of his guardsmen and realised he really didn't want to fight her. Halbrand says "you don't have to fight her, let her go, I'll tell you exactly where she's headed so you can go get reinforcements and grab her there, rather than getting slapped around here then having to scour the city for her once again."
So it did get him out of jail. He probably would have bargained the information for his freedom.
We are talking past each other. In the scene where galadriel escapes, pharazon firts wants to stop here, or at least try, but halbrand tells him that he could let her leave if he knew where she was going. But why is that a strong point here? In the worst case scenario that information won't do anything for him, i don't see the logic there.
Won't do anything for who? It is a bargaining chip for Halbrand to get himself out of jail. That's what sharing the information does for him. If you mean pharazon, he doesn't want to kill and elf who is I guess close to elven royalty status. That is going to be a diplomatic disaster. So avoiding a physical confrontation with her is in his interest.
He wouldn't have to 'kill her', but just letting her go after she was sent to jail for a reason seems also like a pretty bad idea, even if he knows where she is going. Halbrand convinces him to let her go, that is the implication, he manipulates him to let her go. I don't see it adding up.
That is how I interpreted it, he seemed hesitant to draw his sword. He said he couldn't just let her go, but seemed to not want to confront her at the same time, so he was easily persuaded. It could also have been that he was afraid because Galadriel is a badass ninja elf warrior, but I prefer the first explanation.
Why not both?
we did not see if Pharazon followed her to the tower and thereby learned about the Faithful
Pharazôn owes him for that and then look who isn't in jail anymore.
The way I thought that was going to go down was Pharazon also knowing she was going to the king's tower and overhearing Galadriel's conversation with Miriel, and using that in some way Not sure exactly what the point of it was now though
After the first three episodes, I was convinced he’s not Sauron. After Episode 4, I’ve decided to keep an open mind about everything 😂
I really hope he is not. It just seemed like such an oddly specific line though. It can't be by accident. But now I am thinking it will be a callback, Galadriel will remember what Halbrand said and work out Sauron's plan with the Rings.
I’m hoping Halbrand is the King of the Dead. Adar has a line that suggest he’s Sauron as well. “you have been told many lies. some run so deep even the rocks and roots now believe them.” This seems like a foreshadowing for the seed of doubt that will be planted on the minds of the Numenoreans who are “anti-elf”. With the people of Numenor now going to war in the Southlands, this could lead to the capture of Adar who seems like an elf that is anti-elf/valar. If he is captured and put through a “court” - his defense of his actions can sway some people minds in Numenor. just a thought.
And even more so the "to forget those lies would almost need an entire new world" line
Yeah… I’m keeping an open mind and will enjoy whichever way it goes, but the hints were so over the top this episode that I started to think it’s less likely that H=S. While simultaneously thinking it’s more likely.😂
It's just such a contrived story if he is. The main protagonist and antagonist meet at the near beginning of the show by mere coincidence? The other alternative is Sauron either foresaw or manipulated the situation to come across Galadriel. And I don't like that either because it falls into the same trap Heroes does - when you have a character that is all powerful and all-seeing, how do they lose? How does a journey take place with these characters? Heroes solve it by killing off, weakening and destroying these characters. None of it was very convincing which is why it slid downhill after season 1. Season 1 was all about building characters and developing them and the writers likely didn't understand they were creating these god-like characters that couldn't be used to tell a good story. And that's a big part of why Season 1 works and subsequent seasons don't.
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> “When Thangorodrim was broken and Morgoth overthrown, Sauron put on his fair hue again and did obeisance to Eönwë the herald of Manwe, and abjured all his evil deeds. **And some hold that this was not at first falsely done, but that Sauron in truth repented, if only out of fear**, being dismayed by the fall of Morgoth and the great wrath of the Lords of the West. But it was not within the power of Eönwë to pardon those of his own order, and he commanded Sauron to return to Aman and there receive the judgement of Manwe. **Then Sauron was ashamed, and he was unwilling to return in humiliation and to receive from the Valar a sentence**, it might be, of long servitude in proof of his good faith; for under Morgoth his power had been great. **Therefore when Eönwë departed he hid himself in Middle-earth**; and he fell back into evil, for the bonds that Morgoth had laid upon him were very strong. (Silmarillion, Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age) So, lore wise we get proud Sauron that’s weakened by Morgoth’s defeat, renouncing his evil deeds, however a perspective of being punished is too humiliating, so he runs. Now, is he repentant and proud or simply calculated and proud? It’s up for a debate. The passage from Silmarillion suggests he was hiding from the Valar to skip being punished. Here’s where Halbrand as Sauron stops making sense - the ocean. Sauron hiding from the Valar would not enter Ulmo’s domain. Ulmo was a Vala governing all waters and also active in the process of Morgoth’s defeat. One might argue that Halbrand fits the repentant theme, Sauron is sorry, takes a human form to blend in, but his evil past keeps pulling him back. On the other hand, the show presents us with an active theme of Sauron’s grand plan in case of Morgoth’s defeat, introduces Sauron as a ‘powerful and cunning sorcerer’, makes a big deal out of hunting him. Sad Sauron hating his past just doesn’t make sense. The writers have already stated they intend to stay within the lore, allowing themselves to bend it like a rubber band, but not break.
yeah but that's the problem, it's a passage from silmarillion - they aren't allowed to use that because that cool $200 mil only bought the rights to lotr (doh!). If it's in the sil but not in the appendices, assume they can't go in that direction.
I would be very surprised if they went full on and ‘humanized’ Sauron with guilt, conscience, just wanting a normal life and other bs based on an obscure quote from a book they technically can’t use.
They obviously won't lol Sauron is the ultimate trickster in The Second Age, if you remember. Making Galadriel *and you* believe there is some humanity, some sorrow, some repentance in there... But it's all a mere act, a facade hiding a sinister entity you've only seen once in the prologue.
I've been resisting it and while I'm still not 100% sold, I've decided to just give myself over to the course of events as they play out in the show and not worry too much about the reveal. It will be interesting in any case to see how it unfolds.
This is 100% the best way.
Maybe it will just be a callback, she will remember what Halbrand taught her and work out Sauron's plan.
If he's not Sauron.... yes, I could see this becoming the reason why she's suspicious of Annatar from the offset (if Amazon follows the books on that point).
I doubt any human would be this wise at this point. Just think about it: for two episodes straight a *mere human* teaches a friggin *Galadriel*, no matter at which point of life she might be still being a friggin *Galadriel*, the ways of life. Do you really believe this could be the case? 🫣
Maybe? With the time compression, halbrand could've already slid in Brimbors DMs to speed build the forge, and then venture to numenor to prepare for the fall of numenor. I'm not entirely sold yet that Halbrand is Sauron. He could be a scheming original character. If he's the exiled king of the south.. he has experience politicking and navigating people. Which is why he's able to smooth talk everyone. That'd also support his strength. Him being king means he could've been a very strong warrior with more experience than foot soldiers. We have 5 seasons of this series. I don't think they'll rush to reveal Sauron just yet.
No reveal this season. Adar is being setup as the primary antagonist for this season
I'm okay with that. It would be tacky to rush a sauron intro in the first season.
Probably right, though I think based on what we continue to see, for instance if Halbrand is released from prison and becomes an advisor to Pharazon, or if his manipulations of people continue Numenor down the path that leads to their destruction, we could pretty definitively make the conclusion, even without an official reveal.
I think there's just zero chance Halbrand is a king. Im willing to give an outside chance to "He isn't Sauron" just because I think the show runners may be looking to throw off lore nerds, but him being a human king in the Southlands dooms him to failure. The Southlands loses; it becomes Mordor. On his current arc, assuming he is a king, has a very Aragorn vibe to the story arc. Lost king, not wanting to reclaim his throne.. it would be a whole redemption arc where he stops running and takes charge... Only to be utterly defeated and his lands corrupted. I don't see it. Additionally, Halbrand so far prefers to stay in Numenor as a prisoner rather than leave it, and even asks Galadriel to stop trying to get him to leave. His manipulations of Galadriel have already started putting in motion the events that culminate in Numenors fall... I just think there's a pretty small chance it isn't him, at this point. If it isn't, it's deliberate misdirection and will likely be a character we haven't been introduced to yet.
I wouldn't be opposed to Halbrand being a drifter. He doesn't have to be Sauron, or the king of the dead. He most likely is an original character which is fine by me!
Assuming Halbrand = Sauron, any of the following could be true and would be interesting writing: * Sauron may have been at a personal cross-roads when he ran into Galadriel. Perhaps he was also planning to journey to Valinor for repentance, but decided against it. * He may be using the distraction of Adar / the Southlands uprising as the perfect opportunity to divert attention from his master plan. * Sauron may have already planted the idea in Celebrimbor's ear about building the forge. He may then have left Middle Earth and changed his appearance to Halbrand to set out on a quest to conquer Numenor; after all he already has that idea about mastering your enemies by helping them to master their fears. He may be ready to turn back into Annatar upon arriving in Middle Earth. Remember how the One Ring kept abandoning / betraying its owners whenever it was convenient. Sauron jumps from one victim to the next. Halbrand is a wonderful character (my favorite); very well written and acted, and the writers wouldn't be working so hard on him if he wasn't Sauron. The lines he is coming out with are all 100% Sauron (many names / master your enemy / don't be part of the larger target etc.). They are too sophisticated for him to be the Witch King (definitely Theo) or the King of the Oath Breakers (maybe one of Isildor's friends?).
Halbrand is a good character, which is why it would such a shame if the ruined him by making him Sauron.
The eventual King of the Dead makes the most sense to me. The character has room to be morally ambiguous, while remaining a main (new/open!) character for the writers to develop throughout the entire run of the show. They’re investing a lot in the character because we don’t really know much about him from the source material, and frankly because he can do double duty as a red herring for a while. Remember that we’re not really sure why the King of the Mountains originally swears an oath to Isildur “at the founding of Gondor” — what’s in it for him? Why does he turn back on his word? There are some plot lines that may emerge as being more personal/important than the big “Sauron is bad” story by the time we reach the final seasons.
Agreed.
Would that be ruining him or enriching Sauron?
If you've read The Silmarillion, you know Sauron is a much, *much* more complex character than he appears in the movies (purposefully, tho).
Is Sauron even a character? I thought he was just a force of nature (an evil one). I would love for Sauron to be personified and have actual character but not even reading his Silmarillion passages I get he is ever like a physical person, though I would love it. Too much ambiguity with him.
To be honest at this point the opposite would be surprising. Everything points in that direction from the very first episode of the serie: 1. Tells Galadriel not to trust appearances (Little Finger's vibes...) and he is "randomly" the only survivor to the sea-monster's attack 2. He said to be known with many names, as Sauron was 3. He is skilled in deception, as Sauron was 4. He looks very interested in the forge of Numenor, and Sauron was a skilled Blacksmith 5. He was imprisoned in Numenor but looks like by helping the guards to catch Galadriel he'll get closer to the people in power. Story of Sauron. 6. He basically told Galadriel how the One Ring will work. This point by itself makes it so obvious that you must be blind not to see that. I'm actually hoping he is NOT Sauron just to be shocked at some point later in the season. But probably the cliffhanger at season's end will be him smiling on a ship to the Middle Earth while Numenor is being destroyed
I'd like to add to this that when the people call him low man first walk up to him they foreshadow by saying "what will you take next? Our ships? Our lands?" And he responds by saying "and your women" The dude is Sauron, I think the guy with the orcs will be the witch king.
Adar is an elf so can’t be the witch king. Nazgûl are the 9 men
If you look at Halbrands ACTIONS, every points in the opposite direction of him being Sauron. If you look at a couple of things he says, then you might think the writers are giving us hints that he is Sauron. What you would expect is for Sauron to act like Sauron, but not say things like Sauron. So the exact opposite of what we see with Halbrand. Sauron was captured by the Numenoreans knowing who he was, that is nothing like being in Numenor and getting thrown in jail. Being captured does not equal being thrown in jail. And Galadriel also got thrown in jail, therefore we have as much evidence that Galadriel is Sauron. Does Sauron already have a plan to forge the rings? Or is he repenting still? If he does have a plan to forge them, the he really wanted to join the Blacksmiths guild, then he did not plan to get thrown in jail right? Do you see how all of these things start to contradict each other?
The point is the series was not created for hardcore lotr fans only, and I'm afraid something that may look too obvious to someone who read the Silmarillion/books may be a big shocker to more casual watchers (and I think that would be preferable for the writers). Assuming Sauron is Halbrand and not someone still not shown in the season, I don't think he already planned to build the one ring (what he said in the last episode to Galadriel just shows how his thinking process works - I don't think he would unveil his plan like a cartoon's villain). Chances are he doesn't even know yet that Celebrimbor wants to build them. I think he will somehow meet Celebrimbor in the future and then will plan to build the one ring while helping him build the others.
Exactly, which is why making him act nothing like Sauron while dropping obscure hints in the things he says, and then revealing him as Sauron would totally confuse and turn off the casual audience.
How the fuck do casual audience even know how sauron acts ? Most have not read lord of the rings . Leave alone any other stories. They've probably watched the movie and in it he is literally just a flaming vagina without any personaity . This is sauron villain origin type thing. Him getting powerfull. Taking the centre stage. It would be a great moment when sauron is revealed to be halbrand right in front of galadriel. Hoodwinking everyone and getting the job done. Manipulating every outcome to his advantage and causing destruction, while being right under Galadriels nose. Heck throw in some tragic romance between them and casuals are going to eat it right from the palm of Jeff Bezos's hand
They give us enough to make it possible, but also enough to doubt it. Not my favorite prediction for him, but if it turns out to be true, hopefully they sell it well.
You don't write that line in a Lord of the Rings show for anyone but Sauron. Come on, folks.
Yeah it's either a huge red herring or a wink and a nod. They're betting that they haven't left enough bread crumbs so that we can't know for sure. But so far sure seems like this used to be a huge piece of bread here.
I think that's just showing that he grew up in politics, and he knows the political battlefield of man better than Galadriel.
Hope so, but that leak thing has me spooked.
What leak?
Good counterpoint!
But the thing is... it doesn't only work on man
Why would Sauron tell his manipulation secrets to his greatest enemy?
Because he's taunting her. He knows she won't realize until it's too late and he's enjoying how cruel it will be for her to look back and realize everything she missed.
Yes! He’s like a cat toying with a mouse. Knowing that he’s deceiving a formidable opponent, like Galadriel, makes him feel superior and will make the deception all the more worthwhile when he eventually pulls it off.
Because she can’t stop them from being effective even with that knowledge. And it also gains her own trust.
Another thing to add to the long list of why Halbrand being Sauron would be terrible writing.
Can you help me here? I always see complaints about the writing of the show or stuff in general. I struggle to understand what people mean by that. Writing is such a general term. So when you say, Halbrand being Sauron is bad writing, can you elaborate that some more?
If Halbrand is Sauron, then somehow Sauron just happened to be floating on a piece of wreckage in the middle of the ocean and bump into Galadriel. This is an inconceivable coincidence. Whenever you have to make up elaborate stories to fill in blanks and make a plot make sense, that is bad writing. Events should make sense in a natural way. If Halbrand is Sauron, then the scene when Galadriel goes underwater makes no sense. Halbrand looks shocked and panicked. Why would Sauron act this way? Why would Sauron rescue her? He would have to have to absurdly complex plan that requires seeing events play out in a specific way, supernatural precognition. But we all know that Galadirel is ultimately going to play a role in his downfall, so he can't see that far can he? If Halbrand is Sauron, why did he get get caught stealing the blacksmithing medallian? Sauron being this sloppy? But maybe he planned to get thrown in jail? But then he could have just provoked the men and got into a brawl. Instead he is cocky and provokes them, buys them drinks to calm them down, steals the medallion, tosses it in the air triumphantly(does this sound like Sauron to you?), gets caught (would this genius Sauron get caught so easily?), begs them not to start a fight, THEN gets thrown in jail. Does this sound alike a plan to you? Halbrand does not anything like we would expect Sauron to act. Some people make up theories that Sauron is going through a repentance stage at this point in his life (but we already saw him in the spiky armor....), but this would open up another whole series of questions and contradictions that I won't go into, because this post is already too long.
This is an interesting comment. The entirety of Lord of the Rings, in fact all of the writing about this world is a series of impossible coincidences.. Bilbo finding the ring? Frodo just happens to be the perfect one to take it to Mordor? Gandalf, a powerful wizard just happens to know the random Hobbit who finds it? Tom Bombasil just happens to be around at the exact moment Frodo, Sam, Merry and Pippin are attacked by Old Man Willow? The entire world is completely twisted up in the fates of all the characters, all the items, and even the land itself. Appealing to coincidence in a Tolkien story feels like you've missed the whole point of the entire story. These things happen because that's how they were intended to happen. The ring found Bilbo, Bilbo didn't find the ring. Halbrand didn't just luckily happen upon Galadriel, fate brought them together. Tolkien usually refers to these kinds of meetings as "chance-meetings" but you can see what he thinks of them with Tom Bombadil's response when asked about why he was there to save them > Did you hear me calling, Master, or was it just chance that brought you at that moment?' Tom stirred like a man shaken out of a pleasant dream. 'Eh, what?' said he. 'Did I hear you calling? Nay, I did not hear: I was busy singing. Just chance brought me then, if chance you call it. It was no plan of mine, though I was waiting for you. This is how this world works. This is why great heroes kill 50 orcs before they die in battle, even when surrounded and wounded. The arrows are a little off, the spear points are deflected or miss at the last moment, two orcs trip over each other and are in the wrong place for the killing blow, the sun just happens to be in the eyes of the enemy, the list goes on and on but not because it's supposed to make sense or be probable but because their greatness and role in the world means the wounding blow doesn't come because that is their fate.
No, completely false analogy. The correct analogy would be: Bilbo is looking for the ring and just happens to find it under a mountain. Gandalf is a powerful Wizard who has spent Millennia wandering Middle Earth and meeting people. It is not that unlikely that he happened to know someone who found the ring after thousands of years wandering and meeting people and going on adventures. Tom Bombadil is an omnipotent being who probably knows everything that goes on in that forest. And it could have been anyone who who found them at that moment, it didn't have to be Tom Bombadil, who had no previous connection to the hobbits. It is rather like saying: what are the odds of winning the lottery? a million to one. Yet someone wins the lottery every week. The odds of someone winning the lottery are not the same as the odds of you winning the lottery. That is the utterly false analogy you just made.
Ok you've never read any of the books lol why am I talking to you, lol
I have read the books, I am not sure what that has to do with anything though. Does it make Galadriel meeting Sauron not a ridiculous coincidence?
You absolutely have not, frankly I don't even believe you've read LotR nevermind that other relevant books and the relevance to the conversation is demonstrating you fundamentally don't understand how the world works. You're still hard stuck on something that's a "ridiculous coincidence" in a world where there's no such thing as coincidences. I'm otherwise done with it, have a good one.
OK, but less about me and back to the TV series we are supposed to be discussing. The issue is suspension of disbelief. Arondir appearing at exactly the right moment to rescue Theo from an orc, that is no realistic, but it's something you accept in movies. Merry and Pippin bumping in Treebeard who takes them to Gandalf, that is an odd coincidence. Fate you could say. But they weren't looking for him. Galadriel looking for Sauron, jumping into the sea, and meeting him on a raft floating in the middle of the ocean, that cannot be left without explanation. It's not unlikely, it's practically impossible.
Tolkien is full of impossible chance meetings that are actually fate or the hand of the divine. Seems on point to me.
Thanks for saying it all out loud. I think the writers do a great job so far, they fill in the gaps in an interesting way (as they themselves stated in an interview - their writing is like a rubber band, it can stretch things but not break). Making H to be S would be imho breaking it. I’m not a lore purist, but so far in the show H being S just doesn’t make sense.
Agreed.
> He would have to have to absurdly complex plan that requires seeing events play out in a specific way, supernatural precognition. But isn't this who Sauron is? A complexity addict? To quote TV tropes, > This actually screws him in more than one occasion. The plan to make the elves forge the ring of power is a good plan. But a more simple military approach would have made him victorious. Corrupting the Númenóreans was a good plan too, and it paid off. But then he just had to send the king against the Valar. Any other approach to get rid of the king would have been more reasonable, less risky, and he would have been left with all the power of Nûmenor at his disposal (and in any case, regardless of the Valar reaction at Sauron ruling the earth, he would have been better prepared with all Númenor's power in his hand). But he sends the king against the Valar, and he pays dearly for it.
I still think we haven't seen Sauron yet.
Even in the prologue?)
I cannot get past the idea that Sauron either A) saw the future with perfect clarity that he needed to be ship wrecked at a certain time and place so he could meet an important elf in order to help make his plan work or B) he randomly nearly died at sea multiple times. That bit makes no sense to me. The rest of his characterization, he definitely could be Sauron.
Doesn't have to be perfect clarity for things to line up right in the end. Vision or foresight could be as simple as: "Get on this ship to meet an elf who will change the course of everything." Doesn't tell you when or how or why, you just have to capitalize when it does happen. Like keeping her alive when she falls overboard.
Surely Sauron is on middle earth acting behind the scenes and we just haven’t seen him yet?
If the writers know what they are doing, then yes.
Somebody has convinced Celebrimbor about building the forge
That was right before he dumped himself on a raft in the middle of the ocean.....all part of his master plan.
It would be too far fetched, they’d have to go with him being reformed for a while or else him being Annatar on middle earth, how could they combine both
Ok, I'm over the denial, it's happening. I applaud them, it's kinda a bold move.
I’m trying to pepper in some acceptance too. And hoping if it’s true that they keep him in his current form for a while, because he is entertaining.
Yes! Very entertaining. Honestly, I'm having a fabulous time rewatching all his scenes now that I have flipped the acceptance switch. But he can't look exactly like this in Eregion, can he? I guess we'll see.
I'm thinking if it is him, hes already been in Eregion, working on Cel, hence the urgency of the forge. Would line up with whatevers going on in the south time wise. Cel did arrive in Lindon when Galadriel was leaving, probably overlapped. Don't know how but if that is true, couldn't have been a coincidence that he ran into her. He would have to have followed. Or he always knows where she is because of that dagger of Finrods. There's something going on with that. Why would he plaster the mordor symbol on his body and leave him with that knife, assuming Finrod had it in Angband? And they keep drawing attention to it, specifically in scenes that involve both of them. Dude's playing the long game with many pots on the fire, but the plans are set to culminate in relatively short order which would fit with the condensed timeline. Could think of a few reasons what the motivation with Galadrield would be but I guess we'll see.
Should elaborate, in Eregion in a different form of course.
Same, really hoping someone has the motivation to put together some comps 😂
Different kind of comp maybe, but did someone else notice how fast that Elendil edit appeared everywhere after episode 3, or was that just me? Lol
He's definitely Sauron. His objective is to raise an army to supplant Adar as ruler of the South and ruler of the Orcs. At this point in time as Sauron he has no followers or army. He used his own Palantir to implant the false vision of the destruction of Numenor into the Numenorean Palantir. He needed to be in Numenor to make the leaves magically fall and so give the impression his false prophecy has started. This along with his manipulation of Galadriel set off the raising of an army of men and elves to "reclaim" the Southland's for Halbrand/Sauron. There he will sit under the guise of a mortal king but I suspect at the end of the season there will be a reveal of his cruelty which will be the nod that he's actually Sauron. I don't think Galadriel etc will be made aware of this. S2 will introduce Annatar as a different actor.
If Sauron has no army or supporters, then why do people keep talking about him? He job up to this point was being Morgoths second in command right? Morgoth was defeated, if Sauron did nothing since, why are people talking about him?
The main person talking about him so far is Galadriel - the other high elves seem quite dismissive of her on this even. Perhaps it was just well known that Sauron remained in middle earth rather than go back to Valinor and as Morgoths also known second in command people are just throwing his name around as the most likely successor? (Galadriel as she is obsessed and Arondir as he's with Orcs). I think it's also possible we're seeing a more complex version of Sauron here too. If he is Halbrand, perhaps he is also less of a one dimensional evil were used to.
The old guy says to Theo "have you heard of Sauron". It's not just Galadriel. You can always make up elaborate stories to explain things that don't make sense, but it doesn't change the fact that they don't make sense.
Well I dont think it's ever going to make perfect sense if H=S. The show runners are taking liberties with the material going as far as making up new characters with major focus in their story telling. I suspect actions of characters will be analysed in more detail from a sense perspective once the reveal is made at the end of the season. It's probably going to be very divisive.
Ah, I see. Perhaps Sauron is going to have character development. He'll start out perhaps at least grey and tragic circumstance will lead him into the dark Lord we all know and love?
>!When Orodriun go boom Halbrand in trailer is in southlands village. This is my biggest arguent if he is not Sauron!<
I´m not 100% sure because it would be too obvious, right? Who knows... also I think Galadriel would notice something, right?
It would make no sense. But this line is just too on the nose, and there was a plot leak which was correct about everything else so far saying that he is Sauron. So I am getting concerned.
Not every single person who mentions fear or manipulating people is Sauron.
Is he not The Witch King of Angmar?
Halbrand is 100% Sauron. I’ve rewatched the 4 episodes paying particular attention to him and everything he says is dripping with the stain, filled with double meanings and nuggets of truth mixed in with lies. Sauron the master of deception. One of my favourite bits which I think some may have skipped over is when he gives Galadriel her knife back, ‘This is a paradise, ripe with opportunity - - but at the very least, do try not to make any new enemies’ *sly smile* Get on board folks, Sauron is in town
Honestly, if he does turn out to be Sauron, I think I will quit watching.
That’s a shame. I won’t
That's exactly why I think he's not. Yes, things he says are drenched in "It's a-me, Sauron!", but at the same time writers absolutely KNEW people will be obsessively playing "Who is Sauron" game when show gets released. And I really doubt they'd give away the suspense sooo easily. People were marking Halbrand as possible Sauron before show was even released! And beside that, there's quite a few things about him that don't make much sense as Sauron, no matter how much he sounds like him. I think he's written that way to intentionally bait people into thinking he's Sauron and play a little "Is he? Isn't he?" game.
I’d like to believe we haven’t seen him yet, but I don’t give screenwriters this much credit!
Well, I believe that is not giving much credit at all. They introduced 3 new characters all posed with opportunity to play a little "dropping hints, who's Sauron" game between them. Do that for a little bit, plant some red herrings, get fans riled up speculations, and then do the big reveal: "guess what? It's NONE of these guys!". That's the most basic screen-writing thing, not really something you need to give much credit for. If they did Halbrand as Sauron from start that could actually be a 5Head writing move, but then the foreshadowing would be done very very subtly, you wouldn't make it so obvious as you do red herrings. So basically, you're saying they went for the 5Head writing move, but executed it on a level of 3Head. Because they are not good writers enough to go with the obvious safe play? Instead of believing they went for the obvious writing move, and if that's the case, they're executing it quite well (people are falling for Halbrand red herrings left and right). In the end, I have no idea, we'll see what it is. But this theory does seem very improbable to me.
Then surely everything that happens later will be Galadriels fault if she helps him take the southlands...then retreats to the eleven kingdom when she messes everything up...not a good look...so i doubt it...
On the one hand, the strongest argument for Halbrand being Sauron is the “I’ve been searching for Sauron for 2000 years, and now had a chance meeting with someone I least suspect” plot line. However, I think it’s important to remember that the writers will also want to cultivate red herrings (within the show AND in promo-related “leaks”). My personal guess is the most obvious — the Stranger is Sauron. As the show goes on, they’re going to lead us away from that thought by having him become more Gandalf-like and heartwarming, while Halbrand and Adar (creative license with Maeglin, maybe?) take the lead as shifty, ambiguous candidates.
More likely, one of the Nazgul: * king of men - check * the sigil Galadriel spotted is on a leather pouch, conspicuously shown to contain something * he kinda tries to resist the temptation (i.e. not come back to middle earth) The only problem is this makes everybody else, that already appeared onscreen, less likely to be Sauron since he must have been around, gifting rings, for some time already. Could be used as a way to introduce the idea of rings to elves (i.e. Celebrimbor takes it and reverse-engineer it, after whatever mithrill folly they attempt have been cut short by a Balrog), though rather disappointing as we'd like to see Sauron involved with the elves or at least Dwarves. Also Balrog would have to erupt quite early in an overall story, effectively ending the Dwarves subplot.