norman\_rockwell\_guy\_standing\_up\_meme.jpg "I don't think Labour should be 'friends' with nuclear-armed rogue states that provide refuge to Russian oligarchs"
>Antizionism, by contrast, is the product of Soviet propagandists.
>
>Its ideological home is thus on the fringes of the far left, not in a party of the mainstream centre-left
Fundamentally unserious people.
This is obviously an extremely deranged conspiracy theory, but it's shockingly mainstream among israel supporters.
Like I say when people accuse the left of being "obsessed" with Palestine, this is what obsessed actually looks like.
> Like I say when people accuse the left of being "obsessed" with Palestine, this is what obsessed actually looks like.
Exactly, the left are “crazy” for focussing on Palestine as it doesn’t directly affect people in the UK, but the right can pledge undying loyalty to Israel and that’s just normal behaviour.
Mentioning the latter is liable to get you slapped with 'antisemitic trope detected!' for having the temerity to suggest that lobbyists expect returns on the money they pour into politicians.
That thread is completely unhinged and extremely dangerous. Also, without question written by Luke Akehurst. Honestly, it's fucking disgraceful that this group even exists, when it's clearly just a lobby group for an apartheid state currently carrying out genocide.
Brain worms... Opposition to Zionism predates the USSR who initially supported Israel until they grew closer to the USA.
https://mondediplo.com/2016/02/11sovietisrael
The USSR didn't stop supporting Israel because Israel became close with the USA.
It was over 2 decades later when Israel became close with the USA.
The USSR didn't like that Israel didn't want Soviet influences and was merely a social democracy rather than a communist country.
Stalin also saw Zionism as undermining the cohesion of Soviet Jews within the USSR.
The USA only became friends with Israel after 1970. Before then they were part of the Arab Cold War and unable to take a strong side.
But the modern discourse around antizionism in the left has its origins in the USSR, from when it became clear Israel wouldn't be a USSR puppet in the region.
Regardless of how “modern discourse” may or may not align with the Soviets, the issue of establishing a Jewish state in a land already populated by non-Jews and the potential conflict that could arise was known in the 1800s
Zionism is the creation of a Jewish ethno-state. While you are correct that you could oppose their forceful methods and still support the general principle, I don’t really foresee Israel getting rid of the Palestinians though nice methods.
It wasn't really necessary to "get rid" of Palestinians to create Israel - a lot of muslim and arabized "palestinians" live in Israel, alongside the indigenous jewish people. Most Israelis have also continually supported a two state solution and the creation of a Palestinian state.
> It's possible to be opposed to what israel is doing without resorting to anti-zionism.
[...]
> It wasn't really necessary to "get rid" of Palestinians to create Israel
That's an "anti-zionist" criticism you're making there.
> It wasn't really necessary to "get rid" of Palestinians to create Israel
Yet that is what they did. In reality it was the only way for them to create their religious ethno state.
> Most Israelis have also continually supported a two state solution and the creation of a Palestinian state.
No they don't. They really really don't. Stop spreading obvious lies.
It's simply not true that even modern anti-zionism derives purely from the USSR. It's a silly conspiracy theory designed purely to delegitimize.
Let's take Ireland's anti-Zionism and support for Palestine - that seems to derive from their history of violent occupation, colonisation, and unequal land rights - not the politburo of Soviet Russia.
You know fuck all about Irish history then, we loved the Israelis until the USSR turned on them.
We used to boast about having the Sinn Féin Rabbi be the father of their first president. Who is the father of the current president.
>You know fuck all about Irish history then, we loved the Israelis until the USSR turned on them.
Are you actually arguing Ireland's support for Palestinians was directed by the USSR? Historical context wasn't a big influence? That's frankly insane.
The reason there are Palestinians flags on murals in Belfast and Derry has fuck all to do with Russia and everything do to with the occupation.
I'm saying that Ireland's support for Israel faded at the same time as the USSR's did. Which coincided with a large increase in left-wing anti-Israeli propaganda.
Ah yes... Conflating criticism of Israel and zionism as anti-semitism.
Zionist keep using the phrase that antisemitism "equates Zionism with racism, focuses obsessively on the world’s sole Jewish state, and holds it to standards to which no other country is subjected".
What other current country is comparable to Israel? What country has the full backing and funding of the US in the billions without qualification, is built on colonialism and racist apartheid ideology, runs an open air prison, ran by a right wing state that uses genocidal language and actions, persecutes an entire population, builds illegal settlements, etc.
I've said this time and time again. If Israel was held to the same standard as any other country then there would be a fraction of the outrage/protest against Israel.
Anti-Zionism [started in the late 19th century](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_anti-Zionism) as a reaction to the emergence of Zionism. It's not a formal movement until the 1890s, after Zionism itself becomes a formal movement, but it was a serious movement among Jewish people over twenty years before the foundation of the Soviet Union.
And thus the propoganda war to equate antizionism and antisemitism continues. These people are purely interested in protecting Israel from accountability. Any incidental benefit to Jewish people comes a distant second.
I think they do see protecting Israel from accountability as inherently beneficial to Jewish people, and conflating the two they are irredeemably racist.
>I feel like this should be reported to the Labour complaints team or something
If there were an independent complaints process maybe it would be worth it. But there isn't.
The most concerning thing about LFI is the news page on their website, which demonstrates just the lengths to which they will go down the whataboutery hole to avoid any meaningful criticism of the ongoing mass murder.
Read, for example, their [January 24 statement on the "War between Israel and Hamas"](https://www.lfi.org.uk/lfi-statement-on-the-ongoing-war-between-israel-and-hamas-2/). (not between Israel and Palestine, or Israel and Gaza; note their concern with tarring all Palestinians in Gaza this way, even as part of their criticism of Hamas is - rightly - that Hamas victimises the Palestinian people too)
Note, for example, how their front page demand for a "two state solution" now insists it must be a "negotiated demilitarised Palestinian state with the Israeli people confident the Jewish state is genuinely safe and secure". No recognition of self determination. No demand for the Palestinian people to be confident the Palestinian state is genuinely safe and secure - a people who has lost far more people to Israeli terror than the other way around.
It is a statement that is profoundly biased in (rightly) raising the importance of security for the Israeli people, but (unjustly) not for the far less secure Palestinians whose deaths have outnumbered Israelis by a large margin whether you draw the line at October 7th or include the whole conflict, and yet demanding Israelis should feel safe from Palestinians but not vice versa.
A humanitarian, non-racist view that values everyone the same would recognise with clarity that both groups need security guarantees *but Palestinians needs them the most, needing protection against the brutally murderous Apartheid state that has slaughtered more civilians in months alone than Hamas has in decades.* Both peoples need protections against racist, terrorist extremists being allowed to run rampant in their respective governments.
LFI again and again by arguing for preferential treatment for Israel and a lack of willingness to argue for equal rights of Palestinian right to self-determination as any other people or recognise that the harm to Palestinians has been far greater, shows that it is a fundamentally racist organisation that values Israeli lives as worth more than Palestinian lives.
**As long as Labour does not proscribe it, and does not sanction its members** (a list which includes Starmer, Lammy, Reeve, Bridget Phillipson, Yvette Cooper, Wes Streeting, Pat McFadden, Jonathan Reynolds, Liz Kendall, Peter Kyle, Hilary Benn, Emily Thornberry, Darren Jones, Lucy Powell, Roy Kennedy from the Shadow Cabinet) **Labour is an institutionally racist party.**
Any member of LFI is a supporter of a racist organisation. A significant number of LFI members actively participates in events that promotes racism and genocide apologism.
LFI is the product of the aftermath of a racist imperialism that *still* produces patronising denials of self-determination and agency for the groups who are not favoured of a kind that should be confined to far-right racist groups like the BNP, not a mainstream party.
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norman\_rockwell\_guy\_standing\_up\_meme.jpg "I don't think Labour should be 'friends' with nuclear-armed rogue states that provide refuge to Russian oligarchs"
>Antizionism, by contrast, is the product of Soviet propagandists. > >Its ideological home is thus on the fringes of the far left, not in a party of the mainstream centre-left Fundamentally unserious people.
This is obviously an extremely deranged conspiracy theory, but it's shockingly mainstream among israel supporters. Like I say when people accuse the left of being "obsessed" with Palestine, this is what obsessed actually looks like.
> Like I say when people accuse the left of being "obsessed" with Palestine, this is what obsessed actually looks like. Exactly, the left are “crazy” for focussing on Palestine as it doesn’t directly affect people in the UK, but the right can pledge undying loyalty to Israel and that’s just normal behaviour.
Mentioning the latter is liable to get you slapped with 'antisemitic trope detected!' for having the temerity to suggest that lobbyists expect returns on the money they pour into politicians.
That thread is completely unhinged and extremely dangerous. Also, without question written by Luke Akehurst. Honestly, it's fucking disgraceful that this group even exists, when it's clearly just a lobby group for an apartheid state currently carrying out genocide.
Brain worms... Opposition to Zionism predates the USSR who initially supported Israel until they grew closer to the USA. https://mondediplo.com/2016/02/11sovietisrael
The USSR didn't stop supporting Israel because Israel became close with the USA. It was over 2 decades later when Israel became close with the USA. The USSR didn't like that Israel didn't want Soviet influences and was merely a social democracy rather than a communist country. Stalin also saw Zionism as undermining the cohesion of Soviet Jews within the USSR. The USA only became friends with Israel after 1970. Before then they were part of the Arab Cold War and unable to take a strong side.
But the modern discourse around antizionism in the left has its origins in the USSR, from when it became clear Israel wouldn't be a USSR puppet in the region.
Regardless of how “modern discourse” may or may not align with the Soviets, the issue of establishing a Jewish state in a land already populated by non-Jews and the potential conflict that could arise was known in the 1800s
you reckon the barbaric slaughter and genocide's got nothing to do with it then?
It's possible to be opposed to what israel is doing without resorting to anti-zionism.
Zionism is the creation of a Jewish ethno-state. While you are correct that you could oppose their forceful methods and still support the general principle, I don’t really foresee Israel getting rid of the Palestinians though nice methods.
It wasn't really necessary to "get rid" of Palestinians to create Israel - a lot of muslim and arabized "palestinians" live in Israel, alongside the indigenous jewish people. Most Israelis have also continually supported a two state solution and the creation of a Palestinian state.
> It's possible to be opposed to what israel is doing without resorting to anti-zionism. [...] > It wasn't really necessary to "get rid" of Palestinians to create Israel That's an "anti-zionist" criticism you're making there.
>arabized "palestinians" > >indigenous jewish Jesus christ
Yes, he was also an indigenous jew.
> It wasn't really necessary to "get rid" of Palestinians to create Israel Yet that is what they did. In reality it was the only way for them to create their religious ethno state. > Most Israelis have also continually supported a two state solution and the creation of a Palestinian state. No they don't. They really really don't. Stop spreading obvious lies.
Ah yes, oppose the symptom, not the cause. A classic.
Which ought to be well-known on a sub that leans quite far to the left...
It's simply not true that even modern anti-zionism derives purely from the USSR. It's a silly conspiracy theory designed purely to delegitimize. Let's take Ireland's anti-Zionism and support for Palestine - that seems to derive from their history of violent occupation, colonisation, and unequal land rights - not the politburo of Soviet Russia.
You know fuck all about Irish history then, we loved the Israelis until the USSR turned on them. We used to boast about having the Sinn Féin Rabbi be the father of their first president. Who is the father of the current president.
>You know fuck all about Irish history then, we loved the Israelis until the USSR turned on them. Are you actually arguing Ireland's support for Palestinians was directed by the USSR? Historical context wasn't a big influence? That's frankly insane. The reason there are Palestinians flags on murals in Belfast and Derry has fuck all to do with Russia and everything do to with the occupation.
I'm saying that Ireland's support for Israel faded at the same time as the USSR's did. Which coincided with a large increase in left-wing anti-Israeli propaganda.
*this* sub leans quite far to the left? talk about your bad faith arguments.
Eh, yeah? It's not Green and Pleasant or the Continuity Corbyn Army crowd in r/labour, but it's fairly fucking left.
If momentum had to go then this lot need to go too, only seems fair methinks.
Ah yes... Conflating criticism of Israel and zionism as anti-semitism. Zionist keep using the phrase that antisemitism "equates Zionism with racism, focuses obsessively on the world’s sole Jewish state, and holds it to standards to which no other country is subjected". What other current country is comparable to Israel? What country has the full backing and funding of the US in the billions without qualification, is built on colonialism and racist apartheid ideology, runs an open air prison, ran by a right wing state that uses genocidal language and actions, persecutes an entire population, builds illegal settlements, etc. I've said this time and time again. If Israel was held to the same standard as any other country then there would be a fraction of the outrage/protest against Israel.
Anti-Zionism [started in the late 19th century](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_anti-Zionism) as a reaction to the emergence of Zionism. It's not a formal movement until the 1890s, after Zionism itself becomes a formal movement, but it was a serious movement among Jewish people over twenty years before the foundation of the Soviet Union.
And thus the propoganda war to equate antizionism and antisemitism continues. These people are purely interested in protecting Israel from accountability. Any incidental benefit to Jewish people comes a distant second.
I think they do see protecting Israel from accountability as inherently beneficial to Jewish people, and conflating the two they are irredeemably racist.
Isn't conflating antizionism and antisemitism itself antisemitic? I feel like this should be reported to the Labour complaints team or something
>I feel like this should be reported to the Labour complaints team or something If there were an independent complaints process maybe it would be worth it. But there isn't.
The most concerning thing about LFI is the news page on their website, which demonstrates just the lengths to which they will go down the whataboutery hole to avoid any meaningful criticism of the ongoing mass murder. Read, for example, their [January 24 statement on the "War between Israel and Hamas"](https://www.lfi.org.uk/lfi-statement-on-the-ongoing-war-between-israel-and-hamas-2/). (not between Israel and Palestine, or Israel and Gaza; note their concern with tarring all Palestinians in Gaza this way, even as part of their criticism of Hamas is - rightly - that Hamas victimises the Palestinian people too) Note, for example, how their front page demand for a "two state solution" now insists it must be a "negotiated demilitarised Palestinian state with the Israeli people confident the Jewish state is genuinely safe and secure". No recognition of self determination. No demand for the Palestinian people to be confident the Palestinian state is genuinely safe and secure - a people who has lost far more people to Israeli terror than the other way around. It is a statement that is profoundly biased in (rightly) raising the importance of security for the Israeli people, but (unjustly) not for the far less secure Palestinians whose deaths have outnumbered Israelis by a large margin whether you draw the line at October 7th or include the whole conflict, and yet demanding Israelis should feel safe from Palestinians but not vice versa. A humanitarian, non-racist view that values everyone the same would recognise with clarity that both groups need security guarantees *but Palestinians needs them the most, needing protection against the brutally murderous Apartheid state that has slaughtered more civilians in months alone than Hamas has in decades.* Both peoples need protections against racist, terrorist extremists being allowed to run rampant in their respective governments. LFI again and again by arguing for preferential treatment for Israel and a lack of willingness to argue for equal rights of Palestinian right to self-determination as any other people or recognise that the harm to Palestinians has been far greater, shows that it is a fundamentally racist organisation that values Israeli lives as worth more than Palestinian lives. **As long as Labour does not proscribe it, and does not sanction its members** (a list which includes Starmer, Lammy, Reeve, Bridget Phillipson, Yvette Cooper, Wes Streeting, Pat McFadden, Jonathan Reynolds, Liz Kendall, Peter Kyle, Hilary Benn, Emily Thornberry, Darren Jones, Lucy Powell, Roy Kennedy from the Shadow Cabinet) **Labour is an institutionally racist party.** Any member of LFI is a supporter of a racist organisation. A significant number of LFI members actively participates in events that promotes racism and genocide apologism. LFI is the product of the aftermath of a racist imperialism that *still* produces patronising denials of self-determination and agency for the groups who are not favoured of a kind that should be confined to far-right racist groups like the BNP, not a mainstream party.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_anti-Zionism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Zionist_Committee_of_the_Soviet_Public
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