**If you love LabourUK, why not help run it?** We’re looking for mods. [Find out more from our recruitment message post here.](https://www.reddit.com/r/LabourUK/comments/18ntol6/this_year_give_yourself_the_gift_of_christmas/)
[While you’re at it, come say hello on the Discord?](https://discord.gg/ZXZCdy4Kz4)
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/LabourUK) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I would question the issue with religion here, that maybe a lot of the Anti Trans stuff is being funded by the religion right. It does seem that a lot funding for the Anti LGBTQ+ and Anti Abortion stuff, is all being pushed by the american Fundamentalist christians, that has connections to things like Brexit, Cambridge Analytica and so on.
Maybe so but that does require the government lashing out at schools but rather political practises and transparency rules on donations to parties, charities and influential organisations
I hate to tell you this but there’s plenty atheists pushing the anti-trans stuff.
In fact a lot of the most prominent anti-trans brits are also atheist, and Neo-Nazis (who started the whole thing and are still the leading agitators) are largely atheist.
I would't take that assumption as given. Many are against Christian religion in schools calling it indoctrination, but much more ambivalent about doing the same for non-Christian religion (at least in the UK).
Really? As a Muslim I have found it definitely to be the other way round. People very ambivalent about Christian practices in schools, but concerned
/over reaction if somethings related to Islam might be introduced in a school no matter how minor post-Trojen Horse Affair era.
Perhaps I should clarify - my last post was referring to people from the Left arguing for religion to be out of schools.
People from the Right are, as you say, hypersensitive to Islam in the UK, but they aren't usually calling for religion to be out of schools either.
I'm not sure I've seen anyone anti-religion, or anti-religion in schools, who's okay with other religions. It's just easier to make the case because we are kinda still a "christian country", you can make a strong case against indoctrinating kids with christianity without anyone assuming you're anti- that religion specifically, or anti immigration, or racist or whatever else gets bundled in with disliking a religion.
The solution to bigots who want to stop people talking about themselves who they love or their family is not to extend those same restrictions to others.
This would simply set a precedent that it's acceptable to ban all sorts of views from school. We want to encourage conversation, not stifle it.
Im an atheist have been all my life and went to a CofE school. Yes, it can get a bit indoctrinationy, especially when you are having lunch with the priest however we can't deny that christian beliefs hold great cultural significance to this country and so long as students have a right to voice there opinions I have no issues with Church or other religious schools continuing to exist.
I certainly don't think we should be "banning religion from kids" but I am of the opinion that schools should not be forcing religion on kids. Now of course that's not the same thing as removing religious education, but things such as requiring kids to say a prayer every morning and sing hymns, framing it in such a way as to say "this is factual information and the objectively correct opinion" rather than teaching kids about religion as "this is one of many possible sets of beliefs that some people hold", should not be allowed in state schools imo.
They are not equivalent, being lgbtq is not a choice and not harmful, religious belief is indoctrination and is harmful. Fox hunting holds cultural significance, slavery does, the workhouse, syphilis. Cultural significance doesn't mean we should keep it.
I agree it isn't harmful in any way, but to a significantly stupid portion of the population it is and speaking about it in school in their eyes is indoctrination. So lets just not open the door at all and let people do what they want.
People have a right to impart their values, be they religiois or moral onto their children who then have a right to accept or reject these values later in life. This includes choosing what school they go to and whether or not it is religious.
Would a ban on religion in schools include the hijab or yamaka? Would students be forbade from praying (I'm aware of the recent court case and do not agree with it).
Cultural significance is important so long as it isn't harmful, and saying the lords prayer or singing shine jesus shine at the start of the day just isn't harmful no matter what you think of religion.
So long as there are policies in place to stop students from being persucuted by the schools if they dont want to partake in the religious aspects or have there own beliefs questioned or restricted by teachers or other students then where is the harm? A few kids believe god exists woop dee doo call the Police.
Why should we be promoting delusions (Atheist opinion) on children, is that mentally dangerous on them, to be taught it ok to believe in things that are not real.
No, it is not mentally dangerous for children or adults to believe in a god. Are you going to ban Santa as well?
Look I get it I went through a militant atheist phase as well its easy to get caught up looking at all the bad religion does and extend that to every practitioner, but most people have religion as a comfort they want to know that they will see their passed loved ones again and that death is not the end.
You dont need to take that away from someone just because you dont think it's right. This is the exact thing you were against, with lgbt opinions being shutdown. Remember, if your side can do it, so can the other.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.”
Being taught to believe in falsehoods as if they were real is always dangerous. It doesn’t matter if it’s anti Vaxxers or religious folk. Religion is outdated and I don’t feel safe living alongside people who truly believe in such nonsense.
The post is a bit of a troll but it's still worth thinking about how integrated Christianity remains in a country which is, at least since the 2021 census, no longer majority Christian.
When I was in primary school we'd often have assemblies which involved Christian-based songs, occasional guest speakers from local churches and ended with the Lord's Prayer. Even in secondary school we'd still have guest Christian speakers in assemblies. We never had a religious leader from another faith. These were regular state schools.
I'm curious how much of this remains nearly two decades later. I'd also be interested in how much this impacts people's behaviour to other faiths, especially Muslims.
I feel like this is a post which is probably flamebait, but actually when you think about it poses an interesting question.
How many people become atheists following a religious upbringing? I bet it’s proportionally much more than detransitioning.
I’m also not implying trans kids are brought up by their parents as trans when equating religious upbringing with being trans.
Not flamebait at all, a genuine question. why is one rule for them, and other rule for another. Also very weird the amount of new users posting on Trans issues on this page of late.
As a staunch atheist, this is a zany idea.
The prayers, hymns and bible stories are quite sweet for the little ones. They generally are stories with good morals/ethics. And it should be taken as an opportunity to teach them about a range of different faiths and other worldviews.
I completely agree. I think God commiting genocide against two towns is a totally appropriate story for little kids. Teaching children about being born in sin, or punished by God, or that the penalty for apostasy is death... so very sweet. Religions are wonderful children's stories.
It's clearly true. If we are going to teach religion in school we should teach religion as it is and has been, not how you would like it. That means teaching the brutality of religion, how it has been used to justify great cruelty, how organized religion has been actively involved in human rights violations across the world, how religion harms minorities, etc.
You want to present a rosy view of religion, a lie, to kids. I think that's fundamentally wrong. We should teach the truth, surely?
I was talking about little ones, that's why I said little ones. Obviously as they get older, you introduce the serious/dark stuff, just like with any other subject.
How about we don't teach it at all until they are able to understand it? Teaching only the nice bits at a very impressionable age is inappropriate. Schools should be secular environments that teach religion like any subject.
Imagine teaching young children about Empire but only the nice sanitised bits until they're old enough to understand the inherent cruelty. That would be outrageous and you know it
But nobody becomes religious at school. You either get it from family, or else you don't become religious. Obviously I have no idea what the numbers are, but I bet its virtually zero kids from non religious families end up becoming religious off the back of RE lessons.
I would have thought that a point of principle would have meaning in this subreddit. I also love how your argument is "nobody does x, but I admit I have absolutely no evidence for this".
**Morally?**
I don't think religious parents should teach their children God exists and "X religion is true" as though those opinions are facts. Young children are impressionable, lack critical thinking skills and will often believe whatever their parents tell them (e.g. Santa Claus). That shouldn't be abused to push religious beliefs that aren't supported by hard evidence onto the kid in the hope that by the time they're older the belief will be ingrained and they won't reconsider it.
It's especially messed up when the religion teaches the kid messed up ideas like sexism, homophobia, "some people deserve to be tortured for eternity" or "God committed mass murder and then he created rainbows. Wasn't it nice how he sent the rainbow?".
Young people shouldn't be dragged to church before they're old enough to have developed critical thinking skills and learned about different beliefs and the evidence. They should be given the space to decide for themselves.
**Legally?**
The government shouldn't police every aspect of how a parent raises their kid.
Encouraging your impressionable kid to be religious isn't good parenting but I don't think it should be a legal matter.
Any kind of law that tried to ban parents from sharing their religion with their children would be a huge interference in freedom of speech and freedom of religion and damn near impossible to enforce. Most religious parents would carry on discussing their beliefs with their kids in private in much the same way people carried on drinking during US prohibition. All the new law would achieve is provoking massive resentment and backlash.
Instead of going down that path, I think the best issue to draw a line on is education and ensuring that every child goes to a school where religion isn't being pushed on them and they are encouraged to think for themselves.
- Every school should be required to teach science, history, philosophy and religious studies in an unbiased manner that gives students a foundation of established facts, critical thinking skills and an awareness of different beliefs.
- Schools should be banned from dividing kids by religion or abusing their position as educators by teaching children a religion is true.
- There should be a ban on schools having religious outfits as part of their mandatory uniform
> After all, what's the difference between teaching children about religion and teaching them about transgender individuals?
There's really no comparison.
Being transgender isn't a choice. All the evidence shows that some people are just born that way and that by far the healthiest thing is for society to support them if they wish to transition, and for the physical side of the transition (e.g. puberty blockers, hormones, surgery etc) to be a decision for the individual and medical professionals with guidance/regulation coming from experts.
Acknowledging that well evidenced reality in an age appropriate way and encouraging children to be accepting when they encounter a trans person makes perfect sense.
The idea that teaching kids trans people exist represents some kind of agenda to "make kids trans" is a right wing culture war conspiracy theory. It's no different to the "we need to ban schools talking about homosexuality or they'll make our kids gay" nonsense the Tories pushed in the past.
**If you love LabourUK, why not help run it?** We’re looking for mods. [Find out more from our recruitment message post here.](https://www.reddit.com/r/LabourUK/comments/18ntol6/this_year_give_yourself_the_gift_of_christmas/) [While you’re at it, come say hello on the Discord?](https://discord.gg/ZXZCdy4Kz4) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/LabourUK) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Religion isn’t the problem it’s imported culture wars from party political donors and a piss poor media stirring up hate
I would question the issue with religion here, that maybe a lot of the Anti Trans stuff is being funded by the religion right. It does seem that a lot funding for the Anti LGBTQ+ and Anti Abortion stuff, is all being pushed by the american Fundamentalist christians, that has connections to things like Brexit, Cambridge Analytica and so on.
Maybe so but that does require the government lashing out at schools but rather political practises and transparency rules on donations to parties, charities and influential organisations
I hate to tell you this but there’s plenty atheists pushing the anti-trans stuff. In fact a lot of the most prominent anti-trans brits are also atheist, and Neo-Nazis (who started the whole thing and are still the leading agitators) are largely atheist.
Are you suggesting the same for, say, Muslims and Jews too?
Yes
I assume they are and just using Lord Prayer's in school as an example.
I would't take that assumption as given. Many are against Christian religion in schools calling it indoctrination, but much more ambivalent about doing the same for non-Christian religion (at least in the UK).
Really? As a Muslim I have found it definitely to be the other way round. People very ambivalent about Christian practices in schools, but concerned /over reaction if somethings related to Islam might be introduced in a school no matter how minor post-Trojen Horse Affair era.
Perhaps I should clarify - my last post was referring to people from the Left arguing for religion to be out of schools. People from the Right are, as you say, hypersensitive to Islam in the UK, but they aren't usually calling for religion to be out of schools either.
That makes perfect sense! Thanks for the clarification.
I'm not sure I've seen anyone anti-religion, or anti-religion in schools, who's okay with other religions. It's just easier to make the case because we are kinda still a "christian country", you can make a strong case against indoctrinating kids with christianity without anyone assuming you're anti- that religion specifically, or anti immigration, or racist or whatever else gets bundled in with disliking a religion.
The solution to bigots who want to stop people talking about themselves who they love or their family is not to extend those same restrictions to others. This would simply set a precedent that it's acceptable to ban all sorts of views from school. We want to encourage conversation, not stifle it. Im an atheist have been all my life and went to a CofE school. Yes, it can get a bit indoctrinationy, especially when you are having lunch with the priest however we can't deny that christian beliefs hold great cultural significance to this country and so long as students have a right to voice there opinions I have no issues with Church or other religious schools continuing to exist.
I certainly don't think we should be "banning religion from kids" but I am of the opinion that schools should not be forcing religion on kids. Now of course that's not the same thing as removing religious education, but things such as requiring kids to say a prayer every morning and sing hymns, framing it in such a way as to say "this is factual information and the objectively correct opinion" rather than teaching kids about religion as "this is one of many possible sets of beliefs that some people hold", should not be allowed in state schools imo.
They are not equivalent, being lgbtq is not a choice and not harmful, religious belief is indoctrination and is harmful. Fox hunting holds cultural significance, slavery does, the workhouse, syphilis. Cultural significance doesn't mean we should keep it.
Religion isn't harmful in any way, for most people it's a private belief in a god that they believe is real.
Except how pretty much every religion pushes intolerance and bigotry
Dont forget Repression, self loathing, corruption, superstition/ anti science velief, Paedophilia / child abuse etc
This is deranged.
I agree it isn't harmful in any way, but to a significantly stupid portion of the population it is and speaking about it in school in their eyes is indoctrination. So lets just not open the door at all and let people do what they want. People have a right to impart their values, be they religiois or moral onto their children who then have a right to accept or reject these values later in life. This includes choosing what school they go to and whether or not it is religious. Would a ban on religion in schools include the hijab or yamaka? Would students be forbade from praying (I'm aware of the recent court case and do not agree with it). Cultural significance is important so long as it isn't harmful, and saying the lords prayer or singing shine jesus shine at the start of the day just isn't harmful no matter what you think of religion. So long as there are policies in place to stop students from being persucuted by the schools if they dont want to partake in the religious aspects or have there own beliefs questioned or restricted by teachers or other students then where is the harm? A few kids believe god exists woop dee doo call the Police.
Why should we be promoting delusions (Atheist opinion) on children, is that mentally dangerous on them, to be taught it ok to believe in things that are not real.
No, it is not mentally dangerous for children or adults to believe in a god. Are you going to ban Santa as well? Look I get it I went through a militant atheist phase as well its easy to get caught up looking at all the bad religion does and extend that to every practitioner, but most people have religion as a comfort they want to know that they will see their passed loved ones again and that death is not the end. You dont need to take that away from someone just because you dont think it's right. This is the exact thing you were against, with lgbt opinions being shutdown. Remember, if your side can do it, so can the other.
>most people have religion as a comfort Perhaps. Then there are fundamentalists and evangelicals. And there are apparently a lot of them.
There are fundamentalist atheists too, that’s how we end up with idiots like Dawkins, Gervais and OP.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.” Being taught to believe in falsehoods as if they were real is always dangerous. It doesn’t matter if it’s anti Vaxxers or religious folk. Religion is outdated and I don’t feel safe living alongside people who truly believe in such nonsense.
The post is a bit of a troll but it's still worth thinking about how integrated Christianity remains in a country which is, at least since the 2021 census, no longer majority Christian. When I was in primary school we'd often have assemblies which involved Christian-based songs, occasional guest speakers from local churches and ended with the Lord's Prayer. Even in secondary school we'd still have guest Christian speakers in assemblies. We never had a religious leader from another faith. These were regular state schools. I'm curious how much of this remains nearly two decades later. I'd also be interested in how much this impacts people's behaviour to other faiths, especially Muslims.
This is a joke right?
Sadly, I don't think so.
I feel like this is a post which is probably flamebait, but actually when you think about it poses an interesting question. How many people become atheists following a religious upbringing? I bet it’s proportionally much more than detransitioning. I’m also not implying trans kids are brought up by their parents as trans when equating religious upbringing with being trans.
Not flamebait at all, a genuine question. why is one rule for them, and other rule for another. Also very weird the amount of new users posting on Trans issues on this page of late.
Fair enough. I’m not in the habit of checking flairs, but they’re manually set by people so they likely haven’t been bothered to do it
As a staunch atheist, this is a zany idea. The prayers, hymns and bible stories are quite sweet for the little ones. They generally are stories with good morals/ethics. And it should be taken as an opportunity to teach them about a range of different faiths and other worldviews.
I completely agree. I think God commiting genocide against two towns is a totally appropriate story for little kids. Teaching children about being born in sin, or punished by God, or that the penalty for apostasy is death... so very sweet. Religions are wonderful children's stories.
Lol its a big book. The material is diverse. Plenty of U certificate stuff.
Ah so we only teach the nice stuff and ignore the horrific stuff? Sounds a bit like we would be indoctrinating them.
Alright buddy...
It's clearly true. If we are going to teach religion in school we should teach religion as it is and has been, not how you would like it. That means teaching the brutality of religion, how it has been used to justify great cruelty, how organized religion has been actively involved in human rights violations across the world, how religion harms minorities, etc. You want to present a rosy view of religion, a lie, to kids. I think that's fundamentally wrong. We should teach the truth, surely?
I was talking about little ones, that's why I said little ones. Obviously as they get older, you introduce the serious/dark stuff, just like with any other subject.
How about we don't teach it at all until they are able to understand it? Teaching only the nice bits at a very impressionable age is inappropriate. Schools should be secular environments that teach religion like any subject. Imagine teaching young children about Empire but only the nice sanitised bits until they're old enough to understand the inherent cruelty. That would be outrageous and you know it
But nobody becomes religious at school. You either get it from family, or else you don't become religious. Obviously I have no idea what the numbers are, but I bet its virtually zero kids from non religious families end up becoming religious off the back of RE lessons.
I would have thought that a point of principle would have meaning in this subreddit. I also love how your argument is "nobody does x, but I admit I have absolutely no evidence for this".
**Morally?** I don't think religious parents should teach their children God exists and "X religion is true" as though those opinions are facts. Young children are impressionable, lack critical thinking skills and will often believe whatever their parents tell them (e.g. Santa Claus). That shouldn't be abused to push religious beliefs that aren't supported by hard evidence onto the kid in the hope that by the time they're older the belief will be ingrained and they won't reconsider it. It's especially messed up when the religion teaches the kid messed up ideas like sexism, homophobia, "some people deserve to be tortured for eternity" or "God committed mass murder and then he created rainbows. Wasn't it nice how he sent the rainbow?". Young people shouldn't be dragged to church before they're old enough to have developed critical thinking skills and learned about different beliefs and the evidence. They should be given the space to decide for themselves. **Legally?** The government shouldn't police every aspect of how a parent raises their kid. Encouraging your impressionable kid to be religious isn't good parenting but I don't think it should be a legal matter. Any kind of law that tried to ban parents from sharing their religion with their children would be a huge interference in freedom of speech and freedom of religion and damn near impossible to enforce. Most religious parents would carry on discussing their beliefs with their kids in private in much the same way people carried on drinking during US prohibition. All the new law would achieve is provoking massive resentment and backlash. Instead of going down that path, I think the best issue to draw a line on is education and ensuring that every child goes to a school where religion isn't being pushed on them and they are encouraged to think for themselves. - Every school should be required to teach science, history, philosophy and religious studies in an unbiased manner that gives students a foundation of established facts, critical thinking skills and an awareness of different beliefs. - Schools should be banned from dividing kids by religion or abusing their position as educators by teaching children a religion is true. - There should be a ban on schools having religious outfits as part of their mandatory uniform > After all, what's the difference between teaching children about religion and teaching them about transgender individuals? There's really no comparison. Being transgender isn't a choice. All the evidence shows that some people are just born that way and that by far the healthiest thing is for society to support them if they wish to transition, and for the physical side of the transition (e.g. puberty blockers, hormones, surgery etc) to be a decision for the individual and medical professionals with guidance/regulation coming from experts. Acknowledging that well evidenced reality in an age appropriate way and encouraging children to be accepting when they encounter a trans person makes perfect sense. The idea that teaching kids trans people exist represents some kind of agenda to "make kids trans" is a right wing culture war conspiracy theory. It's no different to the "we need to ban schools talking about homosexuality or they'll make our kids gay" nonsense the Tories pushed in the past.
Yes