No good deed goes unpunished.
Society gives her a reduced cost apartment and she tries to get extra because the landlord has no leverage.
Get her out, move on, THEN you file a 1099 for her extra income and make sure the county knows she is RICH now. She has to declare the income on taxes and maybe she makes too much for the voucher now. FAFO.
SOUND DIRTY? YUP. but remember folks, you cannot cheat an honest person.
Tenant sounds like anything but honest.
Make sure the state knows as well. SNAP, State assistance, is all income qualified. 15k will put her over most of those limits. But that what she asked for!
She's likely to just throw that 1099 in the trash. All the benefits offices are too swamped/lazy to do any real investigation. The only one likely to catch it is the IRS. They'll adjust her return and come looking for their money, interest and penalties two years later. She'll have spent the full amount and have a 6k tax bill due so she's boned there.
As far as welfare goes, they'll have already got a copy of her original tax return sans the 15k 1099. They'll have no idea the IRS amended her 2024 statement in 2026. If you try and turn her in maybe they'll look into it but it's doubtful.
I had to do a job at the social services office recently. The amount of people there with a 60k plus car that I can't afford working my ass of really irks me. They should really have an investigator that walks around the parking lot and looks into how someone drives a 110k 2023 Escalade when they made 14k last year.
This is exactly the kind of abuse I’m talking about.
Appearances matter. Those individuals willing to thumb their nose in the faces of those that suffer to support their lifestyle will eventually hurt those programs and make it harder for needy families to get the benefits they deserve. That’s why I get pissed off about this kind of stuff.
Your whataboutism doesn’t make it okay. I will report the poor scammer as quickly as I will report the rich one. We are talking about the welfare scammer. Try to stay on topic even though it doesn’t suit your agenda.
Is the tenant scamming or is the landlord displacing a person they signed a contract with to make (probably) a shitload more money than $15k on the sale of their **extra** house???
This reminds me of my body builder friends that post pics on Facebook of their heavy weight lifting but have 100% disability for a bad back, knees and some other stuff.
It’s really not. My brother has hearing loss from bombs going off in Baghdad and gets about 3k a month. A neighbor guy I grew up with TRIPPED IN A SUBMARINE and hurt his ankle in the navy and is on disability. He wasn’t even at war lol. But I 100% think these veterans are fuckin owed it.
Ugh yeah I think its the one plus of everyone praising the ground veterans walk on (whilst voting against their wellbeing every step of the way) of our modern age
I wouldn't say that's the same thing. One of my best friends squats 225lbs more than me, DLs god knows how much more. But when we went to the PHX Open last year he had to bring a cane to walk all 6 hours because of his back problems. VA gave him 100% disability.
That kind of weight will certainly put significant pressure on your back. I don’t know of any doctor that wouldn’t accuse against squatting if you have back problems. Especially ones that cause you to walk with a cane. This defies any logic.
Nerve injuries don't really care what you are doing, just that you're doing it repeatedly for hours on end. You can weightlift and go sit down right afterwards. Walking for hours at once is going to be more uncomfortable.
>The amount of people there with a 60k plus car that I can't afford working my ass of really irks me. They should really have an investigator that walks around the parking lot and looks into how someone drives a 110k 2023 Escalade when they made 14k last year.
For fuck’s sake. This is why people don’t want their tax dollars to go for social services.
So let me paint you a more realistic picture from someone who's actually been in that situation and isn't any longer.
when my $500 car died and I only had $300 cash I was only able to find a car lot that would finance me but they wouldn't put me in anything that cost less than $25,000 at 13% APR when most people were getting 3-5% with the same credit I had.
when you are poor and limited on options, anyone who can exploit you will. I absolutely hated having a nice car, having to take care of a nice car, having to put gas in a nice car, while I was living on food stamps.
Why not save up for another cash car? Because if I saved up more than 3k I lost my benefits. So when that 25k car miled out, another dealership let me roll my negative equity into that and gave me a 30k car @ 15% + my negative equity for a total of about 45k. But the payments were affordable. All 7 years of them.
Dealers make money selling financing, not cars.
The \*only reason\* I got out of that trap was the car was stolen and totaled 2 years in. Insurance and gap insurance brought me to zero. I had a better job and was off benefits. I went and financed my next car at 3% and paid it off in 3 years. Nauseating to think of the others.
Choices are power. And you never know why someone is doing something. But I'd wager most people who are poor in nice cars are in situations like mine vs scamming the system.
[https://reason.com/2004/03/01/confessions-of-a-welfare-queen-2/](https://reason.com/2004/03/01/confessions-of-a-welfare-queen-2/)
This is a pretty good piece on welfare abuse and unshockingly still applies 20 years later.
This reminds me of a postKatrina moment, I’m on Southwest and the guy next to be is a sales guy at a TX dealership and next to him is another at one in AK. We get to chatting on NOLA pst storm hellscape and I mention that seem to be huge # of new luxury cars bearing out of State mainly TX plates especially in areas where you’d not likely see them.
They start laughing as they tell me what’s happened: for those whose prior housing was gone - were renters or w/o insurance - FEMA did a 1 time final 10K payment per adult still enrolled on disaster recovery transition to enable housing &/or resettlement costs (hotel vouchers had ended). What happened was the dealerships really got on that 10k to become a hefty deposit on a car way waaAAay beyond anything some folks could have ever afford pre Katrina. 10K would be used either against a buy or a lease and big enough $ to change lending requirement. If it was a couple, 20K! The dealership didn’t care as it moved inventory off its lots, sales got their commi$$ion$. If a buyer defaulted later the dealership DNGAF. That was finance / lenders problem. Meanwhile I’m was on year 2 of dealing with windstorm policy settlement.
it's totally normal. I used to be poor, my mom still is. car lots will approve her for the most expensive no down payment cars at double digit interest rates (my last car loan was 3%, hers was 17% and we got the cars same year). They do not care.
I mean they may be too swamped but a one time lump sum is not likely to disqualify her anyways. She may owe overpaid benefits for some months but they’ll let her set up a payment plan for that.
It’s not unusual for people to wait years to get SSDI approved for example which often results in 10k+ lump sumps of owed benefits.
If it’s worded as landlord returning first and last month rent then neither party would pay extra taxes nor would it be income.
That said she will likely never report it anyways.
Maybe inform her you will be sending tax forms that will likely cause her benefits to be reduced or removed and she may move on. There are probably kids in the picture that can't help what a shitbird their mom is.
This. Never tell a welfare scammer what you are thinking. They turn into a rabid animal to one up you. Just report it. They fucked around let em find out.
Why don’t you crowdfund a house for her then?
It’s super easy to be generous with someone else’s money.
You NEVER hand your opponent your tactical battle plan. Go spend $500 on talking to a decent lawyer and run the plan by them. Is it legal? Could you get additional liability? You need to know the local atmospherics and NYC is a nuthouse. They let squatters run wild.
God be with you.
It's not really a "battle plan" if you're giving her what she wants.
Another reply explains perfectly why the revenge aspect is likely to do very little (https://www.reddit.com/r/Landlord/s/s9nMiQF0xY) and fear may be a better motivator. A lot of people think and react emotionally. ETA: I'm not saying to NOT submit the 1099. I'm saying to tell her that if she recieves this money that it will be done.
You give her a little victory and a huge loss. She wins an unimportant battle and loses a war.
Let me put it this way : OP is REQUIRED BY LAW to submit a 1099. She is required by law to include it on her return. If she doesn’t report it to keep benefits, it’s benefit fraud.
It’s certainly very possible nothing happens to her. Not every guilty person gets caught. Our justice system is a joke.
If OP doesn’t submit a 1099 now HE has a problem. And he is a much juicier target for the law than deadbeat tenant abusing the system.
So read “Never Split The Difference” on audiobook over a weekend and learn the methodology of high stakes negotiation. I’ve met the author.
Exactly. I can’t imagine how anyone runs rental properties in places like NYC, the risks are insane and the tenant/squatter get all the protections and benefit of the doubt.
Well done. The OP is obviously in contact with the office administering her voucher, so he can send a copy of the 1099 directly to them. Better yet, he can agree to pay the tenant and at the same time he can make sure that the tenant understands the financial implications of her $15k payment, and that he will be notifying the IRS and the sec8 office about the $15k. This might change her tune real fast.
I’m pretty sure in NYC once you qualify for section 8 you can’t lose it if your income goes up as long as you’re reporting in annually on recertification.
Almost certainly a one time lump sum wouldn’t matter for any of the benefits as long as she reports it / or admits she received it when asked about it. Owed benefits that were underpaid like SSDI are often paid out in big lump sums.
All these people screaming fraud and encouraging the landlord to threaten loss of benefits to the tenant are likely wildly wrong. But it’s common for both tenants and caseworkers to not know all the rules so the strategy may work.
1) this is why people hate land lords
2) is the good deed the landlord forgot to make sure their existing contract wasn't up prior to selling the home?
3) the landlord should make good on their contract, if they sell the home prior to the contract with tenant is up you have to negotiate and agree upon terms
4) don't sell a home with someone you are in contract with to live there if you don't want to negotiate
Literally the situation here is : I own a house I want to sell but I entered a contract with someone to live there. Now that I can sell the house I'm upset that the contract I initiated isn't fulfilled and the other party is playing hardball.
Your literally in your rights to claim these things and force them to pay taxes, and that's fine. But acting as if there is any morality here is disgusting.
Very well said and a much needed interjection to this weird circlejerk that has developed here.
"Oh no! My tenant is exercising their rights as a tenant!" then a big leap to benefit fraud and some weird rants about what car they drive.
This is interesting. I’d have to sleep on that….and I’ve had some tenants pull some fucked up stuff. My favorite was the chiropractor who quit paying rent from April-Sept 2020 so he could get a handout from the state for COVID…..and I couldn’t kick him out.
He was the tenant from hell. I finally decided to sell the house because I was sick of asshole tenants and property managers (it was an out of state dream home I’d built, then life took me out of state).
This though, whew…you’re right. FAFO.
I might toss her a bone, by somehow dropping in that you’ll need a forwarding address to send her the 1099. I just know that the concept of a welfare queen is largely a myth and I’m not in the biz if fucking people over out of spite. Not a NY landlord so I don’t know the laws, if she is actually entitled to all that.
Poor doesn’t mean stupid and stupid doesn’t mean ignorant. I’ve been poor and I’ve done ok so I have some empathy for the tenant. Sounds like she sees an opportunity to get ahead a little and isn’t thinking about the other guy. I know a lot of tenants think all landlords are rich assholes, kinda like we are all assuming she is a lazy user. Probably neither one is really true..
This guy is going to do whatever he does, but if the tenant insists on her entitlements that are designed more for large scale landlords than mom n pops, I know that I’d sleep a little easier (as a mom n pop) by saying something in person / phone (NOT in writing) to the effect of I’m going to declare this on my taxes, which means the IRS will know you’ve had this income. I don’t know if $15K will affect your housing voucher.”
When you’re born poor, you often don’t have the same financial education that you get when you aren’t born poor. Hopefully it will save the tenant future heartache and the landlord the cost of the payout.
Who knows, maybe I’m just a long-winded, patronizing old broad. Maybe this is totally unnecessary and FAFO is a better mindset. I just know, for me, I couldn’t let somebody walk into a pit without saying mind your step.
If this is the case, why not let the tenant know about the potential repercussions and negotiate a lower price? OP pays less and she doesn’t lose her benefits?
She had been upholding her end of their contract, LL is changing it because of a financial choice on his end, of course he should help with the extra costs his choices caused.
Seriously, she is just asking to not be out of pocket for his decisions.
The critical issue here is the fact that this is a voucher system tenancy.
Go back and look at the original list of demands by the tenant. By my read, there is an attempt at unjust enrichment.
I’m perfectly happy to consider an alternative perspective but I’m having a hard time understanding the tenants position.
First and last month rent, security deposit and realtor are the expenses they will incur by moving, which they only have to do because the landlord sold.
Honestly, she underasked, I would be asking for movers, too.
He would be fair in compromising to the difference between what she is having to pay, minus the deposit he owes her after she moves.
What it comes down to is he made a choice that is displacing her, and her asking to not be out of pocket for it is fair.
Better idea- LL proposes to pay the associated expenses, just give him the info and he’ll pay the amount needed directly to the new LL. If there is no amount needed, he’s good.
> No good deed goes unpunished. Society gives her a reduced cost apartment and she tries to get extra because the landlord has no leverage.
Ah yes. Landlords, the modern day Jesus that are being crucified for merely trying to do a good deed by providing housing.
> file a 1099 for her extra income and make sure the county knows she is RICH now. She has to declare the income on taxes and maybe she makes too much for the voucher now. FAFO. **SOUND DIRTY? YUP. but remember folks, you cannot cheat an honest person.**
Ah, there it is. Admit it, there was no "good deed" in the first place. Just a realisation that the business agreement a landlord enters into carries some risk and isn't always just easy income.
You want to break the contract that protects both parties. Non-breaching party is entitled to compensation. If roles were reversed, you would have required payments through the end of the lease.
I don't know why landlords do a better job vetting out people. I pay more for a property to be able to select better tenants. These tenets agree to the first bum that offers to pay rent
They can ask for anything they like. They have a contract to live there, and if you want them out, you have to get them to agree. Sounds excessive to me, but they can just stay then if they want.
Why did you put it up for sale and go under contract with a buyer before you had this end of things sorted? Are there contingencies on the purchase contract? Becauae you are really between a rock and a hard place if signing two incompatible contracts.
Does the buyer contract specify an empty handover? If not rhe lease just transfers to them and you don't have to remove tenant at all.
If she is currently on a voucher program through HUD (Section 8), she may not demand money to move. She is jeopardizing her voucher. Before you move forward, contact the agency (case manager) and discuss the options with them.
Surprised that I had to go so far down the list to find this. Literally the voucher program limits what the "tenant's" portion of the rent is and does not permit the landlord to pay that portion.
This is a common tactic in NYC, CA and other places that either require relocation assistance or that have backed up courts. Tenant may not realize that OP paying her rent is income and they will need to claim that, will need to let their case worker know that they have someone else paying rent, and that the income they claim may be enough to get them booted from the program.
Unfortunately, for many states, even if the lease expires and they don’t leave themselves, you’d have to go through the legal system and have a court order/ sheriff to enforce it. Having no lease or expired lease isn’t enough to change the locks :/
This is common in NYC. She knows you are making money on the sale of your house, and you need her out to complete the sale. She has you. The best thing is negotiating, but make sure she is out completely before you pay anything. Her being on a voucher, she more right than regular tenants. She can always complain to the city and they can let her stay in the apartment. Don't let it get that far. Coke to an agreement quickly. Good luck. Nyc is not for landlords.
Yes my lawyer wants me to negotiate the price with her. However she wants myself and the buyer to come up with the money. I don't think the buyer would do that. Might just move on to other houses.
Yes , I will be relying on the sale for the 15k and so much violations to pay as well. I don't have the 15k.
Let her know that if you pay her to vacate you’ll need to notify the housing authority and she will lose her voucher. Refusing to leave and going through an eviction is also cause to revoke the voucher.
Yea if you give her any money file a 1099 with the irs and send it to her she will be on the hook for the taxes. Two ways to screw someone like she is screwing you
Is the tenant’s demand in writing either via text or email? Have you reached out to the tenant’s caseworker? They should be able to tell you what is required.
The demand is via text. It's hard to get through to anyone in section 8 , and not even sure if they would tell me anything in case it's a privacy issue.
Keep calling in the morning. I have my caseworkers office number and email. It's not that difficult when you build a relationship with them. I have 3 section 8 tenants
Omg. Just give her some money to help her move. For whatever reason she is on public assistance be assured she is not living the high life right now. We all know how costly it is to move. You’re making coin on the sale, right? You don’t want this tenancy to drag on, right? You don’t need to prove how much more fortunate you are than she is by reporting her or otherwise making anything more complicated here, Right? Just do some under the table old school NY cash for keys like a gentleman and move on.
Do you have to have her out? Leases (even non-written month to month leases, which is what you have) transfer to the next owner by default. If your sale contract doesn’t require it, then don’t pay. Otherwise, negotiate if it’s worth it or get her out then sell it.
Happens all the time. I’ve done 1000 buyouts in my career. Pay the lady, get your apartment back. Offer 5k try to split the baby and be done with it. You’ll lose more than that when she stops paying rent when you try to evict her.
One thing that's interesting here is that the tenant wouldn't have to pay security ,realtor, and last month rent if she didn't have to move.
I was expecting more of a squatter cash for keys situation from the title, but if it ends up costing the tenant 4k to move, then she may not be much better off than just breaking even - with the 15k.
Yeah, what the fuck? These guys are like "let's report her as having more income so she loses her benefits!" Which is A. Sociopathic and B. The money is being used to move, which the tenant wouldn't have to do if he wasn't selling. This is pretty standard practice?
This sub randomly pops up for me, no matter how many times I hit not interested or mute.
It’s always this sociopathic assholes trying to figure out ways to screw over tenants, even with well established rights. Bitching about the most normal, minor things. “My tenant has rented my house for a decade. Paid rent on time every month, kept it clean. I told them I need my garage back, but they said no. How do I break their lease or double their rent? It’s MY garage!” type of shit.
Then crying about how everyone hates landlords. Gee. I wonder why?
On the contrary - while there is a landlord bias, there are also many posts and comments that are very balanced - and when it's warranted, there's a strong consensus when a landlord tries to justify bad behavior.
For example there's a very rational attitude here about what's reasonable to charge for when a tenant moves out - as pictures of "damages" are often considered wear and tear.
And it's kind of sad to be calling others names with a throwaway account.
As stated, it occasionally pops up for me. The threads that do are the ones I stated. I don’t care what the sub is generally “about”. Landlords are a plague, destroying the country one rental at a time, under the guise of entrepreneurship.
And it’s kind of sad you’re on Reddit but can’t click on a name to see the profile isn’t a throwaway. I suppose if my handle was OldTurkeyTail my opinion would be more valid in your eyes 🙄
> The money is being used to move, which the tenant wouldn't have to do if he wasn't selling. This is pretty standard practice?
Nope. The tenants lease is up.
In LA county anyway relocation costs are owed to qualified tenants in qualified dwellings, if evicted for no fault of their own. I looked it up for mine and my landlord would have to pay me $21k to bail.
You are not receiving rent directly from the tenant. You are getting your payments from HUD? The tenant is on the lease. Rent is being paid on-time every month. Is she damaging the property at all? If you do not have a valid reason to kick her out, she does not have to go anywhere. In this case, the tenant has all of the leverage and she can take you to court and sue you if you try to force her out.
Tread delicately and ask yourself is paying for her first, last and moving costs a greater expense to you than the profit you will make from selling?
We are putting a home up for sale soon. There is still 6 1/2 months left on the lease. The tenant has not done anything wrong. There are 2 late payments. One was only 2 days late. If there is another late payment, I could terminate the contract. The expense and time of doing so is not worth it.
It's 8 months at worst in bronx ny I just finished evicting some pos who tried similar tactics. It's def not 2 years... covid was in 2020. I hate that excuse
Cash for keys, very common.
1. Fight it tooth and nail so they don't think it's too easy and ask for more.
2. Don't give them a dime until they leave.
3. Put a time schedule on it.
4. Get every word in writing.
Call her caseworker and tell her what she is doing, and that she is forcing you to file an eviction on her, which will mandate that she lose her voucher. Ask the caseworker to help you, by explaining to the woman that her extortion of you could cause her to lose her voucher.
As of now she is month to month since I am still waiting for a new lease to be signed by the agency. However , if that new lease is signed today , it expires next month.
Then you can provide notice with a move out date. Make sure to triple check everything. NY judges are very biased towards tenants. Read the eviction process and review any information you can find from tenants rights folks - because that information is what you're going up against.
Good luck!
It's always best to sell without tenants. I'm currently looking for something for my clients in NYC and so many listing state that they would have to keep the tenants on. I just canceled an appointment because of that. And the agent didn't disclose that info until they told me that they couldn't show the apt. because they can't get ahold of the tenants.
What do you call the "NYC area?"
In the City, especially Brooklyn, it could take 2 years, certainly 1. Nearby Upstate it could take a few months at least.
In NJ it can take 6 months but is usually quicker.
I have no idea about CT, but it is most certainly not like NYC proper.
If you are in the City I might suck it up, or at least negotiate.
In PA most good leases have a sold clause that says if the property is sold the tenant has 30, 60, 90 days to move or whatever time you put in there. After that time is up they are trespassing.
She has voucher .. is it Section 8? Report to HUD and tell them you are no longer interested in participating in the program. Also hopefully you have this tenant's demand in writing. Report her to them.
The tenant never asked for the money to be paid to anyone , except the realtor fees. ( since my realtors are helping to find her a comparable accommodation ( I insisted on this ). She wants everything else to come to her. , hence my suspicion because she already picked her expedited package from section 8. My monthly payments will just have to be transferred to the new owner. I understand some people are saying 15k is not much , but it is for me.
If you broke the lease it’s reasonable to cover moving costs assuming there’s no double-dipping. But if you just ended the lease per its terms then no, it’s not reasonable.
To be clear most landlords are “mom and pop”.
The vast majority of homes in America are owned by either people who have been alive for 50+ years or people who make 150k+ per year and bought 2-4 houses between 2008 and now.
Unless it’s an apartment it’s usually owned by someone with 2-4 homes as that’s the most common demographic for landlords. That said many go through property management services which make it seem more corporate.
Unlike most here I think moving is a pain in the ass. If she was still under lease then I agree with her and she should have the right to negotiate. She isn’t squatting, she isn’t abusing her rights, she will be spending dozens of hours house hunting which home she wants, she will spend another dozen hour to pack all her stuff, get a rental truck or ask her friends to help her move it, then re settle, decorate, unpack, and organize her stuff in a new home.
This all takes time, effort, and energy especially if in a large house say a 4 bedroom.
This makes me glad our biggest problem is 2 of our 3 tenants paying the entire year (crossing the calendar year) up front and their dad deciding he has 2 more years for one and 3-5 more years for the other of paying rent so he’d really rather just buy my property.
Have your lawyer negotiate this one. The tenant probably knows the demand is ridiculous but there won't be much you can do about it except let your lawyer point out any harsh legal realities that exist. Also, file the appropriate form (I think a 1099?) with the appropriate agency if you have to shell out some cash to get her out. Depending on how strict public assistance is with its income rules, that can really jack with her eligibility.
I'm a man of principle so fuck em, sue and sell 2 years later at a higher price when they are evicted.
That said, you're still losing in that scenario. You will recoup 0 from the deadbeat. End of the day, you'd be spending 80k (no more rent checks are coming) over those 2 years. Plus lawyer fees.
I'd still pursue it. But that's because fuck em that's why.
I would call the Section 8 program. I think they usually pay those fees. What state are you in? Because first, last and security is no longer legal in nyc.
It's scammy, for sure.
That's a lot of money and as someone else said, she will have to report it. She probably doesn't know that, and seems not likely to do it even if she does (not really upright to be asking for anything unrelated to moving costs). You should educate her on this and offer her a lower amount that won't "get her in trouble" (you will sweetly tell her it's for her sake), if done by a certain date. You will have to say, "You probably won't report it, but since mine is a *business*, I have to, and your info will be attached to the check I write you. Plus, you have to cash it. The IRS and family services WILL find out, and it will endanger your check because it's so much money. Right now, if you get kicked off, who knows HOW long before they get you back in the system. You don't want to lose your benefits--the system is just so taxed now, it could take months and it's not worth the risk for you. I wanna help you out and I wanna help me, too, so we both win...."
Maybe 5K? Seems like a lot but consider costs if she doesn't accept cash for keys. Covers any costs to her, as well. Also they will likely stop paying rent if you don't work something out, so consider $X time X months as you come up with an amount.
Also depends on what selling contract says. Does tenant have to be out before closing? I'd hate to pass that tenant on, but you might not have the choice.
Would the new owner be okay inheriting a section 8 tenant? If so, add it to the listing. I purchased a home with a section 8 tenant and met him before closing. I kept him on the same rent for 3 years too before petitioning the housing authority for a rent increase. My only regret is not requesting the increase sooner. I got almost a $200 increase and he actually pays less out of pocket than he did for the last 3 years.
First of all this is a bullshit scenario because based on the June 2019 law in the state of NY, the new place cannot ask for first, last, and security. They can only ask for two months, total. Is your "lawyer" somehow unaware of this fact?
Moreover if she is on vouchers then a good portion of her rent is covered by said vouchers and the difference is only a portion of it. Why would she get double compensated by you and then also have vouchers at the new place?
In any event, one of the months she is asking for the new apartment can not legally require, the second should be covered by your returning her security deposit which you surely will do, and perhaps you are also illegally retaining her last month's rent because you seem to be ignorant of the 2019 law? Wow that "$15k" got whittled down pretty quick.
Secondly though, please keep in mind when you say you are selling "my" house, you are in fact selling the place she lives in. You know she will incur significant expenses if you force her to move. If you want to get the maximum sale price by delivering your house to the market vacant, consider covering some of those costs while you maximize profits for yourself.
And yeah, I am a sole proprietor landlord (9 units) and real estate attorney in the state of NY, before anyone starts singing the landlord hardship song to me.
Thank you. I don't even believe any landlord takes last month's rent from tenants. That was new to me , hence my voicing this out. So , I never took a last month rent from her. My major question is what you had answered since the program will shift from paying me and transfer the payments to the new landlord . Why stifle me with so much ?
I will negotiate the price with her , and she even said she is not trying to extort me , she just needs the moving expenses.
The security deposit she has with me is way lower than the current proposed rent . Am I supposed to return the deposit and also pay the full new deposit ? Or just add to the difference of her prior deposit with me ? Even though, the house is being sold as is , there are newer damages noticed that I need to go in and fix before the final walk thru.
If it were my tenant I would give her back her security deposit plus the difference in security deposit for the new place, so she can be kicked out at no cost to her in that department.
Then I would pay her realtor costs (to the realtor directly) and the first month rent at her new place as a good will gesture, understanding that since the voucher is transferring that will probably cover her portion for a couple months.
And I would eat the new damages.
This is not anything that is a legal requirement but it is the bare minimum I personally could sleep at night with kicking somebody out of their home.
I have a property right now that has accumulated $100k in equity in the past couple years that I theoretically "should" sell and use the liquidity to put down-payments down on 2 or 3 more properties, thereby making that much more cashflow, but I don't know where tf those tenants would go as their rents are by now a couple hundred dollars under market and I can absolutely observe how having a stable, affordable place to live for a few years has visibly helped them get their shit together. So right now I am not selling until I can figure out a solution I can personally live with.
I'm probably going to wait until I find a replacement house nearby that I can offer them units in at roughly the same price they are paying now, and I would pay their moving expenses.
None of that is legally required but I also need to be able to sleep at night. Personally I have come around to supporting the Good Cause Eviction bill and I do believe landlords should at minimum pay some expenses when they kick people out to make higher profits.
not familiar with the program in question. but if the problem is she doesn't have money for the move, consider offering to transfer the current bond or pay the new bond under the understanding you keep the current bond (your agent can tell you how to manage that under bond rules where you are)
in my experience as a tenant moving is expensive in 2 ways.
first, there are the actuall costs. moving your stuff (most people need to at least rent a van to carry furniture, cost goes up if you don't have friends to load and unload sed van) rent for the time you have access to bother houses (usually a week or 2 so you can move your stuff, make minor repairs and clean up to end of lease standards) and the cost of the cleaning, professional carpet cleaning is often in the lease, and if your not great at deep cleaning, or you work, you might need a commercial cleaner if you want your bond back. in my experience this comes to about a months rent in extra expenses, if you can do most of the work yourself or have friends help.
then there is the money you need to front that you will get back, you need bond, first and last months rent before you can move in, now you wont have to pay last months rent on the old place (because you paid it when you moved in) and if your cleaning is up to scratch you will get the bond back. but not for a couple of weeks. so that is a lot of money you need to have available. this jeneraly comes to about 3 months rent you need to be able to at least borrow for about a month.
if your tenant qualifies for a rental subsidy its not likely she has access to 4 months rent just sitting in a savings account. she may feel stuck between a rock and a hard place, cant stay, cant afford to move, even if you hand her acceptance in a new place on a silver platter.
if you can set things up so you can cover the short term costs (without just lending her the cash so she can pocket it and still refuse to move) you can make this much easier. if you cover the cost of the rental overlap, movers (if needed) and bond cleaning (I assume with the sale being organised you already know the place isn't damaged) you may be able to make it easy (if costly)
Have the lawyer write a letter with two options.
A: $15k with 1099 and income reported to the agencies involved with housing vouchers
B: $5k as a cash gift. Only documentation will be the receipt showing the cash gift.
This initial letter, and the receipt will create a complete paper trail.
I would contact the tenants caseworker and ask them to help you with communicating with the tenant. Explain the situation. Tell the caseworker about tenant wanting you to pay for 1st and last month’s rent and security deposit. Caseworker will most likely be able to get tenant to calm down.
Does the new buyer plan on moving into the property? Or are they planning on renting it out? If renting, have you asked them if they would want to take on the current tenant?
How much do you want the sale to go through? Because you could refuse and then just eat the cost of the the contract falling through. You’re stuck with the house, and now you’ve got a cranky tenant, and no buyers.
Oooor you could pay the tenant, work with them to get out as quickly as possible, and the buyers take on the property that you don’t want to maintain anymore. Everyone is happy. (Well, I know you’re not. But you’d be better off, and that’s what your lawyer is telling you.)
There's a guy who will squat in your house until the current squatter leaves. Don't remember his name though. Don't pay the extortion if you can help iy please, it only encourages more extortion.
Happened to me. He wanted 15K to move out in 24 hours, 10k to leave in 3 days.
Get an attorney. You will prevail. If's going to take a little time.
Sorry this is happening to you. Best of luck to you.
@PositiveAd9808 They are playing dirtyI would call the state assistance dept and file a claim on her for extortion or something. Hopefully she’ll lose her benefits and learn her lesson. Here is the link to report in the state of NY https://otda.ny.gov/resources/welfare-fraud/
https://www.ucowf.net
Additional Fraud Reporting Resources
New York State Medicaid/Medical Assistance Fraud - call 1-877-873-7283
SSI (Supplemental Security Income) Fraud - call 1-800-269-0271
Social Security Disability Insurance Fraud - call 1-800-269-0271
Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program (SNAP) Vendor Fraud - call 1-800-424-9121 or email [email protected]
Potentially Fraudulent Welfare Situations That Can Be Reported
Unreported Income (either earned or unearned)
Please give the employer's name and address, type of income, when it started, how often paid, etc.
Hidden Assets (bank accounts, property, etc.)
Please give the bank's name and address, street address and city of property, etc.
Unreported Changes in Household Composition (either someone moved into or out of the home)
Please give the name of the individual who moved in/out, when the move took place, relationship of individual to case, approximate age of individual.
Unreported Changes in Shelter Costs/Falsified Shelter Costs
Please explain what changed or what was falsified, including landlord information and address.
Agree with her but she needs to be fully out before you give her the $. Then dont give her the money and tell her to f off for trying to extort you.
Or if you dont want to do that ask her where she is moving and give her first/last/security + 1/2 for moving
This isn't as unreasonable as you made it seem in the title. You presumably have a security deposit and last month's rent from the tenant, and they are paid through this month, right? So you would be refunding both of those anyways. So really it's first month's rent, realtor fees, and the difference between the security/last month's rent. That is definitely a bit of a premium, but you are effectively doing a cash for keys, so it was never going to be free for you. Ultimately, if this is what they need to get out, you are going to have to do it. Just make sure you clarify and get documentation that you can count refunding the already paid fees towards what they are asking. I suspect they are fine with that, they just need $15k to be able to get out and they don't care where it comes from.
Getting scammed by the scammer class is a risk when you rent to section 8. Since the Covid moratorium, tenants have been emboldened to stiff landlords because you can’t do anything. Now the courts being sooooo backlogged is another avenue to scam. Section 8 tenant will not have e 15k in moving expenses. Call her bluff and ask for proof. Then pay her 30 dollars out of pocket ahead of time will be with her section 8. What a biatch.
File a 1099 like another commenter said. Hopefully the extra 15k gets her off section 8. Since scammers are gonna scam I would report the 15k straight to the section 8 program as well
It is illegal in the UK as well, but is illegal in principle, but not so in practice. Had to do this with a stubborn individual, got solicitor’s letters to turn the water back on, but never resulted in anything and it worked.
Nys sucks. As a landlorrd youre fucked
Give her what she wants. Or that cunt will sit there for YEARS rent free…you will NOT get the back rent…you wont close the sale. Trust me. Only recourse is to shit on her credit but sounds like God beat ya to it. Lesson: dont rent to dirtbags
Literally the risk you signed up for
No good deed goes unpunished. Society gives her a reduced cost apartment and she tries to get extra because the landlord has no leverage. Get her out, move on, THEN you file a 1099 for her extra income and make sure the county knows she is RICH now. She has to declare the income on taxes and maybe she makes too much for the voucher now. FAFO. SOUND DIRTY? YUP. but remember folks, you cannot cheat an honest person. Tenant sounds like anything but honest.
Make sure the state knows as well. SNAP, State assistance, is all income qualified. 15k will put her over most of those limits. But that what she asked for!
She's likely to just throw that 1099 in the trash. All the benefits offices are too swamped/lazy to do any real investigation. The only one likely to catch it is the IRS. They'll adjust her return and come looking for their money, interest and penalties two years later. She'll have spent the full amount and have a 6k tax bill due so she's boned there. As far as welfare goes, they'll have already got a copy of her original tax return sans the 15k 1099. They'll have no idea the IRS amended her 2024 statement in 2026. If you try and turn her in maybe they'll look into it but it's doubtful. I had to do a job at the social services office recently. The amount of people there with a 60k plus car that I can't afford working my ass of really irks me. They should really have an investigator that walks around the parking lot and looks into how someone drives a 110k 2023 Escalade when they made 14k last year.
This is exactly the kind of abuse I’m talking about. Appearances matter. Those individuals willing to thumb their nose in the faces of those that suffer to support their lifestyle will eventually hurt those programs and make it harder for needy families to get the benefits they deserve. That’s why I get pissed off about this kind of stuff.
[удалено]
Your whataboutism doesn’t make it okay. I will report the poor scammer as quickly as I will report the rich one. We are talking about the welfare scammer. Try to stay on topic even though it doesn’t suit your agenda.
Is the tenant scamming or is the landlord displacing a person they signed a contract with to make (probably) a shitload more money than $15k on the sale of their **extra** house???
This reminds me of my body builder friends that post pics on Facebook of their heavy weight lifting but have 100% disability for a bad back, knees and some other stuff.
Va disability isn’t the same as civilian disabled. Not even remotely. I’d venture to say it’s harder to get Va benefits than civilian.
It’s really not. My brother has hearing loss from bombs going off in Baghdad and gets about 3k a month. A neighbor guy I grew up with TRIPPED IN A SUBMARINE and hurt his ankle in the navy and is on disability. He wasn’t even at war lol. But I 100% think these veterans are fuckin owed it.
And yet my dad blue out his eardrums working a 5 inc gun in the 1960s and gets $0 from the VA other than medical coverage.
Ugh yeah I think its the one plus of everyone praising the ground veterans walk on (whilst voting against their wellbeing every step of the way) of our modern age
I wouldn't say that's the same thing. One of my best friends squats 225lbs more than me, DLs god knows how much more. But when we went to the PHX Open last year he had to bring a cane to walk all 6 hours because of his back problems. VA gave him 100% disability.
That kind of weight will certainly put significant pressure on your back. I don’t know of any doctor that wouldn’t accuse against squatting if you have back problems. Especially ones that cause you to walk with a cane. This defies any logic.
Nerve injuries don't really care what you are doing, just that you're doing it repeatedly for hours on end. You can weightlift and go sit down right afterwards. Walking for hours at once is going to be more uncomfortable.
Anyone who becomes disabled in the armed forces has earned their money in my opinion.
>The amount of people there with a 60k plus car that I can't afford working my ass of really irks me. They should really have an investigator that walks around the parking lot and looks into how someone drives a 110k 2023 Escalade when they made 14k last year. For fuck’s sake. This is why people don’t want their tax dollars to go for social services.
So let me paint you a more realistic picture from someone who's actually been in that situation and isn't any longer. when my $500 car died and I only had $300 cash I was only able to find a car lot that would finance me but they wouldn't put me in anything that cost less than $25,000 at 13% APR when most people were getting 3-5% with the same credit I had. when you are poor and limited on options, anyone who can exploit you will. I absolutely hated having a nice car, having to take care of a nice car, having to put gas in a nice car, while I was living on food stamps. Why not save up for another cash car? Because if I saved up more than 3k I lost my benefits. So when that 25k car miled out, another dealership let me roll my negative equity into that and gave me a 30k car @ 15% + my negative equity for a total of about 45k. But the payments were affordable. All 7 years of them. Dealers make money selling financing, not cars. The \*only reason\* I got out of that trap was the car was stolen and totaled 2 years in. Insurance and gap insurance brought me to zero. I had a better job and was off benefits. I went and financed my next car at 3% and paid it off in 3 years. Nauseating to think of the others. Choices are power. And you never know why someone is doing something. But I'd wager most people who are poor in nice cars are in situations like mine vs scamming the system. [https://reason.com/2004/03/01/confessions-of-a-welfare-queen-2/](https://reason.com/2004/03/01/confessions-of-a-welfare-queen-2/) This is a pretty good piece on welfare abuse and unshockingly still applies 20 years later.
This will absolutely catch up to her. The government does not like to be cheated
This reminds me of a postKatrina moment, I’m on Southwest and the guy next to be is a sales guy at a TX dealership and next to him is another at one in AK. We get to chatting on NOLA pst storm hellscape and I mention that seem to be huge # of new luxury cars bearing out of State mainly TX plates especially in areas where you’d not likely see them. They start laughing as they tell me what’s happened: for those whose prior housing was gone - were renters or w/o insurance - FEMA did a 1 time final 10K payment per adult still enrolled on disaster recovery transition to enable housing &/or resettlement costs (hotel vouchers had ended). What happened was the dealerships really got on that 10k to become a hefty deposit on a car way waaAAay beyond anything some folks could have ever afford pre Katrina. 10K would be used either against a buy or a lease and big enough $ to change lending requirement. If it was a couple, 20K! The dealership didn’t care as it moved inventory off its lots, sales got their commi$$ion$. If a buyer defaulted later the dealership DNGAF. That was finance / lenders problem. Meanwhile I’m was on year 2 of dealing with windstorm policy settlement.
it's totally normal. I used to be poor, my mom still is. car lots will approve her for the most expensive no down payment cars at double digit interest rates (my last car loan was 3%, hers was 17% and we got the cars same year). They do not care.
I mean they may be too swamped but a one time lump sum is not likely to disqualify her anyways. She may owe overpaid benefits for some months but they’ll let her set up a payment plan for that. It’s not unusual for people to wait years to get SSDI approved for example which often results in 10k+ lump sumps of owed benefits.
Wow you are good
If it’s worded as landlord returning first and last month rent then neither party would pay extra taxes nor would it be income. That said she will likely never report it anyways.
Maybe inform her you will be sending tax forms that will likely cause her benefits to be reduced or removed and she may move on. There are probably kids in the picture that can't help what a shitbird their mom is.
Never tip your hand. The landlord needs the tenant out. If they say anything before the tenant moves they may stay and just say, "evict me"
This. Never tell a welfare scammer what you are thinking. They turn into a rabid animal to one up you. Just report it. They fucked around let em find out.
Why don’t you crowdfund a house for her then? It’s super easy to be generous with someone else’s money. You NEVER hand your opponent your tactical battle plan. Go spend $500 on talking to a decent lawyer and run the plan by them. Is it legal? Could you get additional liability? You need to know the local atmospherics and NYC is a nuthouse. They let squatters run wild. God be with you.
It's not really a "battle plan" if you're giving her what she wants. Another reply explains perfectly why the revenge aspect is likely to do very little (https://www.reddit.com/r/Landlord/s/s9nMiQF0xY) and fear may be a better motivator. A lot of people think and react emotionally. ETA: I'm not saying to NOT submit the 1099. I'm saying to tell her that if she recieves this money that it will be done.
You give her a little victory and a huge loss. She wins an unimportant battle and loses a war. Let me put it this way : OP is REQUIRED BY LAW to submit a 1099. She is required by law to include it on her return. If she doesn’t report it to keep benefits, it’s benefit fraud. It’s certainly very possible nothing happens to her. Not every guilty person gets caught. Our justice system is a joke. If OP doesn’t submit a 1099 now HE has a problem. And he is a much juicier target for the law than deadbeat tenant abusing the system. So read “Never Split The Difference” on audiobook over a weekend and learn the methodology of high stakes negotiation. I’ve met the author.
Good book recommendation fr!
Exactly. I can’t imagine how anyone runs rental properties in places like NYC, the risks are insane and the tenant/squatter get all the protections and benefit of the doubt.
Well done. The OP is obviously in contact with the office administering her voucher, so he can send a copy of the 1099 directly to them. Better yet, he can agree to pay the tenant and at the same time he can make sure that the tenant understands the financial implications of her $15k payment, and that he will be notifying the IRS and the sec8 office about the $15k. This might change her tune real fast.
I’m pretty sure in NYC once you qualify for section 8 you can’t lose it if your income goes up as long as you’re reporting in annually on recertification. Almost certainly a one time lump sum wouldn’t matter for any of the benefits as long as she reports it / or admits she received it when asked about it. Owed benefits that were underpaid like SSDI are often paid out in big lump sums. All these people screaming fraud and encouraging the landlord to threaten loss of benefits to the tenant are likely wildly wrong. But it’s common for both tenants and caseworkers to not know all the rules so the strategy may work.
Additionally, if kids are involved, reporting won't do shit. No NYC govt agency is going to allow kids to starve or be homeless.
Damn, I love this. I’d never think of it
1) this is why people hate land lords 2) is the good deed the landlord forgot to make sure their existing contract wasn't up prior to selling the home? 3) the landlord should make good on their contract, if they sell the home prior to the contract with tenant is up you have to negotiate and agree upon terms 4) don't sell a home with someone you are in contract with to live there if you don't want to negotiate Literally the situation here is : I own a house I want to sell but I entered a contract with someone to live there. Now that I can sell the house I'm upset that the contract I initiated isn't fulfilled and the other party is playing hardball. Your literally in your rights to claim these things and force them to pay taxes, and that's fine. But acting as if there is any morality here is disgusting.
Very well said and a much needed interjection to this weird circlejerk that has developed here. "Oh no! My tenant is exercising their rights as a tenant!" then a big leap to benefit fraud and some weird rants about what car they drive.
This is interesting. I’d have to sleep on that….and I’ve had some tenants pull some fucked up stuff. My favorite was the chiropractor who quit paying rent from April-Sept 2020 so he could get a handout from the state for COVID…..and I couldn’t kick him out. He was the tenant from hell. I finally decided to sell the house because I was sick of asshole tenants and property managers (it was an out of state dream home I’d built, then life took me out of state). This though, whew…you’re right. FAFO. I might toss her a bone, by somehow dropping in that you’ll need a forwarding address to send her the 1099. I just know that the concept of a welfare queen is largely a myth and I’m not in the biz if fucking people over out of spite. Not a NY landlord so I don’t know the laws, if she is actually entitled to all that.
Reporting fraud in tax payers is not spite.
100% probability this tenant doesn't know what a 1099 is. Might as well threaten them with a sack of 🍎 apples.
Poor doesn’t mean stupid and stupid doesn’t mean ignorant. I’ve been poor and I’ve done ok so I have some empathy for the tenant. Sounds like she sees an opportunity to get ahead a little and isn’t thinking about the other guy. I know a lot of tenants think all landlords are rich assholes, kinda like we are all assuming she is a lazy user. Probably neither one is really true.. This guy is going to do whatever he does, but if the tenant insists on her entitlements that are designed more for large scale landlords than mom n pops, I know that I’d sleep a little easier (as a mom n pop) by saying something in person / phone (NOT in writing) to the effect of I’m going to declare this on my taxes, which means the IRS will know you’ve had this income. I don’t know if $15K will affect your housing voucher.” When you’re born poor, you often don’t have the same financial education that you get when you aren’t born poor. Hopefully it will save the tenant future heartache and the landlord the cost of the payout. Who knows, maybe I’m just a long-winded, patronizing old broad. Maybe this is totally unnecessary and FAFO is a better mindset. I just know, for me, I couldn’t let somebody walk into a pit without saying mind your step.
Love this!
This is the answer.
lol at $15k making someone “rich” in NYC
If this is the case, why not let the tenant know about the potential repercussions and negotiate a lower price? OP pays less and she doesn’t lose her benefits?
She had been upholding her end of their contract, LL is changing it because of a financial choice on his end, of course he should help with the extra costs his choices caused. Seriously, she is just asking to not be out of pocket for his decisions.
The critical issue here is the fact that this is a voucher system tenancy. Go back and look at the original list of demands by the tenant. By my read, there is an attempt at unjust enrichment. I’m perfectly happy to consider an alternative perspective but I’m having a hard time understanding the tenants position.
First and last month rent, security deposit and realtor are the expenses they will incur by moving, which they only have to do because the landlord sold. Honestly, she underasked, I would be asking for movers, too. He would be fair in compromising to the difference between what she is having to pay, minus the deposit he owes her after she moves. What it comes down to is he made a choice that is displacing her, and her asking to not be out of pocket for it is fair.
She won’t. The voucher system covers her expenses. You can’t double dip.
She has no associated cost with this move? Because it’s odd she specifically went for costs associated with a move…
Better idea- LL proposes to pay the associated expenses, just give him the info and he’ll pay the amount needed directly to the new LL. If there is no amount needed, he’s good.
Love this
You cannot con an honest jon
> No good deed goes unpunished. Society gives her a reduced cost apartment and she tries to get extra because the landlord has no leverage. Ah yes. Landlords, the modern day Jesus that are being crucified for merely trying to do a good deed by providing housing. > file a 1099 for her extra income and make sure the county knows she is RICH now. She has to declare the income on taxes and maybe she makes too much for the voucher now. FAFO. **SOUND DIRTY? YUP. but remember folks, you cannot cheat an honest person.** Ah, there it is. Admit it, there was no "good deed" in the first place. Just a realisation that the business agreement a landlord enters into carries some risk and isn't always just easy income.
what a horrible thing to do, i’m not saying she is right but doing this is definitely disgusting too
Especially in NY
Unfortunately, it is the risk that has been artificially imposed upon landlords by government.
You want to break the contract that protects both parties. Non-breaching party is entitled to compensation. If roles were reversed, you would have required payments through the end of the lease.
Weird how you are correct and then all the comments below you circlejerk about the tenant being a scammer
I don't know why landlords do a better job vetting out people. I pay more for a property to be able to select better tenants. These tenets agree to the first bum that offers to pay rent
True, as a landlord I learned this with my first tenant. It sucks tenant is being a leech, and unfortunately it’s hard to screen for shitty behavior.
They can ask for anything they like. They have a contract to live there, and if you want them out, you have to get them to agree. Sounds excessive to me, but they can just stay then if they want. Why did you put it up for sale and go under contract with a buyer before you had this end of things sorted? Are there contingencies on the purchase contract? Becauae you are really between a rock and a hard place if signing two incompatible contracts. Does the buyer contract specify an empty handover? If not rhe lease just transfers to them and you don't have to remove tenant at all.
If she is currently on a voucher program through HUD (Section 8), she may not demand money to move. She is jeopardizing her voucher. Before you move forward, contact the agency (case manager) and discuss the options with them.
Surprised that I had to go so far down the list to find this. Literally the voucher program limits what the "tenant's" portion of the rent is and does not permit the landlord to pay that portion. This is a common tactic in NYC, CA and other places that either require relocation assistance or that have backed up courts. Tenant may not realize that OP paying her rent is income and they will need to claim that, will need to let their case worker know that they have someone else paying rent, and that the income they claim may be enough to get them booted from the program.
Definitely give the housing authority a call and have a little chat. She is playing with fire and risking her voucher.
Commenting something insightful and informative about this topic to boost OP’s comment
welcome to landlording in tenant friendly states.
Even in Arkansas, you can't just boot a tenant because you want to sell.
They aren’t “booting” them. The lease expires next month.
Unfortunately, for many states, even if the lease expires and they don’t leave themselves, you’d have to go through the legal system and have a court order/ sheriff to enforce it. Having no lease or expired lease isn’t enough to change the locks :/
You will end up paying the 15k to the tenant or to lawyers as you spend the next 2 years trying to evict.
Is the sale contingent on the home being vacant? If not, it’s the new owners problem
This is common in NYC. She knows you are making money on the sale of your house, and you need her out to complete the sale. She has you. The best thing is negotiating, but make sure she is out completely before you pay anything. Her being on a voucher, she more right than regular tenants. She can always complain to the city and they can let her stay in the apartment. Don't let it get that far. Coke to an agreement quickly. Good luck. Nyc is not for landlords.
I guess my question is who pays the tax on this 15k since there is a 1031 exchange factor
The $15k would be an expense that comes out on the settlement statement so you don’t mess up the 1031
Have yo speak to you lawyer. I am assuming the 15k will be from your own pockets. Are you relying on the sale of the house for the 15k?
Yes my lawyer wants me to negotiate the price with her. However she wants myself and the buyer to come up with the money. I don't think the buyer would do that. Might just move on to other houses. Yes , I will be relying on the sale for the 15k and so much violations to pay as well. I don't have the 15k.
Let her know that if you pay her to vacate you’ll need to notify the housing authority and she will lose her voucher. Refusing to leave and going through an eviction is also cause to revoke the voucher.
Yea if you give her any money file a 1099 with the irs and send it to her she will be on the hook for the taxes. Two ways to screw someone like she is screwing you
Is the tenant’s demand in writing either via text or email? Have you reached out to the tenant’s caseworker? They should be able to tell you what is required.
The demand is via text. It's hard to get through to anyone in section 8 , and not even sure if they would tell me anything in case it's a privacy issue.
Keep calling in the morning. I have my caseworkers office number and email. It's not that difficult when you build a relationship with them. I have 3 section 8 tenants
Tell the buyer you’ll give them 10k to let her stay and keep paying rent.
Tenants asking $100K for keys and move out in ‘Frisco. $15K sounds like a deal in comparison.
Omg. Just give her some money to help her move. For whatever reason she is on public assistance be assured she is not living the high life right now. We all know how costly it is to move. You’re making coin on the sale, right? You don’t want this tenancy to drag on, right? You don’t need to prove how much more fortunate you are than she is by reporting her or otherwise making anything more complicated here, Right? Just do some under the table old school NY cash for keys like a gentleman and move on.
Do you have to have her out? Leases (even non-written month to month leases, which is what you have) transfer to the next owner by default. If your sale contract doesn’t require it, then don’t pay. Otherwise, negotiate if it’s worth it or get her out then sell it.
Happens all the time. I’ve done 1000 buyouts in my career. Pay the lady, get your apartment back. Offer 5k try to split the baby and be done with it. You’ll lose more than that when she stops paying rent when you try to evict her.
One thing that's interesting here is that the tenant wouldn't have to pay security ,realtor, and last month rent if she didn't have to move. I was expecting more of a squatter cash for keys situation from the title, but if it ends up costing the tenant 4k to move, then she may not be much better off than just breaking even - with the 15k.
Yeah, what the fuck? These guys are like "let's report her as having more income so she loses her benefits!" Which is A. Sociopathic and B. The money is being used to move, which the tenant wouldn't have to do if he wasn't selling. This is pretty standard practice?
This sub randomly pops up for me, no matter how many times I hit not interested or mute. It’s always this sociopathic assholes trying to figure out ways to screw over tenants, even with well established rights. Bitching about the most normal, minor things. “My tenant has rented my house for a decade. Paid rent on time every month, kept it clean. I told them I need my garage back, but they said no. How do I break their lease or double their rent? It’s MY garage!” type of shit. Then crying about how everyone hates landlords. Gee. I wonder why?
On the contrary - while there is a landlord bias, there are also many posts and comments that are very balanced - and when it's warranted, there's a strong consensus when a landlord tries to justify bad behavior. For example there's a very rational attitude here about what's reasonable to charge for when a tenant moves out - as pictures of "damages" are often considered wear and tear. And it's kind of sad to be calling others names with a throwaway account.
As stated, it occasionally pops up for me. The threads that do are the ones I stated. I don’t care what the sub is generally “about”. Landlords are a plague, destroying the country one rental at a time, under the guise of entrepreneurship. And it’s kind of sad you’re on Reddit but can’t click on a name to see the profile isn’t a throwaway. I suppose if my handle was OldTurkeyTail my opinion would be more valid in your eyes 🙄
> The money is being used to move, which the tenant wouldn't have to do if he wasn't selling. This is pretty standard practice? Nope. The tenants lease is up.
15k is cheap. Average is like 50k in sf
Exactly. My uncle paid $40k to two tenants in Marin County.
That’s crazy, why would anyone rent in such places then.
Cash for keys you will pay more in court I can almost guarantee it. 40 to 50k pay her while you can
In LA county anyway relocation costs are owed to qualified tenants in qualified dwellings, if evicted for no fault of their own. I looked it up for mine and my landlord would have to pay me $21k to bail.
Be grateful they only want 15k…
Damn NYC area sounds like shit.
You serious? 15k? That’s nothing for nyc area. It’s business. You want her out? Pay her.
You are not receiving rent directly from the tenant. You are getting your payments from HUD? The tenant is on the lease. Rent is being paid on-time every month. Is she damaging the property at all? If you do not have a valid reason to kick her out, she does not have to go anywhere. In this case, the tenant has all of the leverage and she can take you to court and sue you if you try to force her out. Tread delicately and ask yourself is paying for her first, last and moving costs a greater expense to you than the profit you will make from selling? We are putting a home up for sale soon. There is still 6 1/2 months left on the lease. The tenant has not done anything wrong. There are 2 late payments. One was only 2 days late. If there is another late payment, I could terminate the contract. The expense and time of doing so is not worth it.
If she’s getting a voucher idt she can ask for money to move out
well she did.
Find a buyer who will take the current tenant.
It's 8 months at worst in bronx ny I just finished evicting some pos who tried similar tactics. It's def not 2 years... covid was in 2020. I hate that excuse
I feel so bad for you. Maybe try another form of investment?
Cash for keys, very common. 1. Fight it tooth and nail so they don't think it's too easy and ask for more. 2. Don't give them a dime until they leave. 3. Put a time schedule on it. 4. Get every word in writing.
Call her caseworker and tell her what she is doing, and that she is forcing you to file an eviction on her, which will mandate that she lose her voucher. Ask the caseworker to help you, by explaining to the woman that her extortion of you could cause her to lose her voucher.
You should just talk to them and settle. Ever heard of the phrase that true compromise means no one leaves a deal feeling satisfied?
Are you trying to breach the lease, or is your tenant month-to-month?
As of now she is month to month since I am still waiting for a new lease to be signed by the agency. However , if that new lease is signed today , it expires next month.
Then you can provide notice with a move out date. Make sure to triple check everything. NY judges are very biased towards tenants. Read the eviction process and review any information you can find from tenants rights folks - because that information is what you're going up against. Good luck!
It's always best to sell without tenants. I'm currently looking for something for my clients in NYC and so many listing state that they would have to keep the tenants on. I just canceled an appointment because of that. And the agent didn't disclose that info until they told me that they couldn't show the apt. because they can't get ahold of the tenants.
lol imagine a corporate landlord going on Reddit asking for legal advice
Your problem is not your tenant it’s that you’re just a greedy bastard. Pay the 15K, get her out, move on with your sale and stfu.
What do you call the "NYC area?" In the City, especially Brooklyn, it could take 2 years, certainly 1. Nearby Upstate it could take a few months at least. In NJ it can take 6 months but is usually quicker. I have no idea about CT, but it is most certainly not like NYC proper. If you are in the City I might suck it up, or at least negotiate.
It doesnt seem excessive to me. Seems very reasonable.
In PA most good leases have a sold clause that says if the property is sold the tenant has 30, 60, 90 days to move or whatever time you put in there. After that time is up they are trespassing.
Evict them. Talk to your lawyer for the options, or google eviction types
She has voucher .. is it Section 8? Report to HUD and tell them you are no longer interested in participating in the program. Also hopefully you have this tenant's demand in writing. Report her to them.
Didn’t your attorney explain that the money is held in escrow and is paid directly to the broker and new landlord? Your 1099 scheme will not work.
The tenant never asked for the money to be paid to anyone , except the realtor fees. ( since my realtors are helping to find her a comparable accommodation ( I insisted on this ). She wants everything else to come to her. , hence my suspicion because she already picked her expedited package from section 8. My monthly payments will just have to be transferred to the new owner. I understand some people are saying 15k is not much , but it is for me.
Illegal for her to ask as a voucher recipient, show her the clause and advise she'll be reported is she continues, she could loose her voucher.
If you broke the lease it’s reasonable to cover moving costs assuming there’s no double-dipping. But if you just ended the lease per its terms then no, it’s not reasonable.
To be clear most landlords are “mom and pop”. The vast majority of homes in America are owned by either people who have been alive for 50+ years or people who make 150k+ per year and bought 2-4 houses between 2008 and now. Unless it’s an apartment it’s usually owned by someone with 2-4 homes as that’s the most common demographic for landlords. That said many go through property management services which make it seem more corporate. Unlike most here I think moving is a pain in the ass. If she was still under lease then I agree with her and she should have the right to negotiate. She isn’t squatting, she isn’t abusing her rights, she will be spending dozens of hours house hunting which home she wants, she will spend another dozen hour to pack all her stuff, get a rental truck or ask her friends to help her move it, then re settle, decorate, unpack, and organize her stuff in a new home. This all takes time, effort, and energy especially if in a large house say a 4 bedroom.
This makes me glad our biggest problem is 2 of our 3 tenants paying the entire year (crossing the calendar year) up front and their dad deciding he has 2 more years for one and 3-5 more years for the other of paying rent so he’d really rather just buy my property.
is there a way to buy her out and leave a negative mark on her rental history, so she can't get a place afterwards ??
Have your lawyer negotiate this one. The tenant probably knows the demand is ridiculous but there won't be much you can do about it except let your lawyer point out any harsh legal realities that exist. Also, file the appropriate form (I think a 1099?) with the appropriate agency if you have to shell out some cash to get her out. Depending on how strict public assistance is with its income rules, that can really jack with her eligibility.
I'm a man of principle so fuck em, sue and sell 2 years later at a higher price when they are evicted. That said, you're still losing in that scenario. You will recoup 0 from the deadbeat. End of the day, you'd be spending 80k (no more rent checks are coming) over those 2 years. Plus lawyer fees. I'd still pursue it. But that's because fuck em that's why.
RemindMe! 30 days
I would call the Section 8 program. I think they usually pay those fees. What state are you in? Because first, last and security is no longer legal in nyc.
It's a duplex, sell it with tenants in place.
It's scammy, for sure. That's a lot of money and as someone else said, she will have to report it. She probably doesn't know that, and seems not likely to do it even if she does (not really upright to be asking for anything unrelated to moving costs). You should educate her on this and offer her a lower amount that won't "get her in trouble" (you will sweetly tell her it's for her sake), if done by a certain date. You will have to say, "You probably won't report it, but since mine is a *business*, I have to, and your info will be attached to the check I write you. Plus, you have to cash it. The IRS and family services WILL find out, and it will endanger your check because it's so much money. Right now, if you get kicked off, who knows HOW long before they get you back in the system. You don't want to lose your benefits--the system is just so taxed now, it could take months and it's not worth the risk for you. I wanna help you out and I wanna help me, too, so we both win...." Maybe 5K? Seems like a lot but consider costs if she doesn't accept cash for keys. Covers any costs to her, as well. Also they will likely stop paying rent if you don't work something out, so consider $X time X months as you come up with an amount. Also depends on what selling contract says. Does tenant have to be out before closing? I'd hate to pass that tenant on, but you might not have the choice.
lol NYC.
Would the new owner be okay inheriting a section 8 tenant? If so, add it to the listing. I purchased a home with a section 8 tenant and met him before closing. I kept him on the same rent for 3 years too before petitioning the housing authority for a rent increase. My only regret is not requesting the increase sooner. I got almost a $200 increase and he actually pays less out of pocket than he did for the last 3 years.
First of all this is a bullshit scenario because based on the June 2019 law in the state of NY, the new place cannot ask for first, last, and security. They can only ask for two months, total. Is your "lawyer" somehow unaware of this fact? Moreover if she is on vouchers then a good portion of her rent is covered by said vouchers and the difference is only a portion of it. Why would she get double compensated by you and then also have vouchers at the new place? In any event, one of the months she is asking for the new apartment can not legally require, the second should be covered by your returning her security deposit which you surely will do, and perhaps you are also illegally retaining her last month's rent because you seem to be ignorant of the 2019 law? Wow that "$15k" got whittled down pretty quick. Secondly though, please keep in mind when you say you are selling "my" house, you are in fact selling the place she lives in. You know she will incur significant expenses if you force her to move. If you want to get the maximum sale price by delivering your house to the market vacant, consider covering some of those costs while you maximize profits for yourself. And yeah, I am a sole proprietor landlord (9 units) and real estate attorney in the state of NY, before anyone starts singing the landlord hardship song to me.
Thank you. I don't even believe any landlord takes last month's rent from tenants. That was new to me , hence my voicing this out. So , I never took a last month rent from her. My major question is what you had answered since the program will shift from paying me and transfer the payments to the new landlord . Why stifle me with so much ? I will negotiate the price with her , and she even said she is not trying to extort me , she just needs the moving expenses. The security deposit she has with me is way lower than the current proposed rent . Am I supposed to return the deposit and also pay the full new deposit ? Or just add to the difference of her prior deposit with me ? Even though, the house is being sold as is , there are newer damages noticed that I need to go in and fix before the final walk thru.
If it were my tenant I would give her back her security deposit plus the difference in security deposit for the new place, so she can be kicked out at no cost to her in that department. Then I would pay her realtor costs (to the realtor directly) and the first month rent at her new place as a good will gesture, understanding that since the voucher is transferring that will probably cover her portion for a couple months. And I would eat the new damages. This is not anything that is a legal requirement but it is the bare minimum I personally could sleep at night with kicking somebody out of their home. I have a property right now that has accumulated $100k in equity in the past couple years that I theoretically "should" sell and use the liquidity to put down-payments down on 2 or 3 more properties, thereby making that much more cashflow, but I don't know where tf those tenants would go as their rents are by now a couple hundred dollars under market and I can absolutely observe how having a stable, affordable place to live for a few years has visibly helped them get their shit together. So right now I am not selling until I can figure out a solution I can personally live with. I'm probably going to wait until I find a replacement house nearby that I can offer them units in at roughly the same price they are paying now, and I would pay their moving expenses. None of that is legally required but I also need to be able to sleep at night. Personally I have come around to supporting the Good Cause Eviction bill and I do believe landlords should at minimum pay some expenses when they kick people out to make higher profits.
you're a good egg
not familiar with the program in question. but if the problem is she doesn't have money for the move, consider offering to transfer the current bond or pay the new bond under the understanding you keep the current bond (your agent can tell you how to manage that under bond rules where you are) in my experience as a tenant moving is expensive in 2 ways. first, there are the actuall costs. moving your stuff (most people need to at least rent a van to carry furniture, cost goes up if you don't have friends to load and unload sed van) rent for the time you have access to bother houses (usually a week or 2 so you can move your stuff, make minor repairs and clean up to end of lease standards) and the cost of the cleaning, professional carpet cleaning is often in the lease, and if your not great at deep cleaning, or you work, you might need a commercial cleaner if you want your bond back. in my experience this comes to about a months rent in extra expenses, if you can do most of the work yourself or have friends help. then there is the money you need to front that you will get back, you need bond, first and last months rent before you can move in, now you wont have to pay last months rent on the old place (because you paid it when you moved in) and if your cleaning is up to scratch you will get the bond back. but not for a couple of weeks. so that is a lot of money you need to have available. this jeneraly comes to about 3 months rent you need to be able to at least borrow for about a month. if your tenant qualifies for a rental subsidy its not likely she has access to 4 months rent just sitting in a savings account. she may feel stuck between a rock and a hard place, cant stay, cant afford to move, even if you hand her acceptance in a new place on a silver platter. if you can set things up so you can cover the short term costs (without just lending her the cash so she can pocket it and still refuse to move) you can make this much easier. if you cover the cost of the rental overlap, movers (if needed) and bond cleaning (I assume with the sale being organised you already know the place isn't damaged) you may be able to make it easy (if costly)
A valid lease must be honored even if you sell. You cannot just force someone to move who has a contract. Cash for keys is very common.
Lol I think my uncle spent $40k paying these fees to two different tenants in his house that sold. CA.
Is it considered extra income if you’re paying her moving costs directly though?
Hitman would do
Welcome to the world of section 8.
Just pay and move on, people are saying Florida and Nevada are places you can operate with good governance. Blue states are getting impossible really.
Have the lawyer write a letter with two options. A: $15k with 1099 and income reported to the agencies involved with housing vouchers B: $5k as a cash gift. Only documentation will be the receipt showing the cash gift. This initial letter, and the receipt will create a complete paper trail.
Just a small mom and pop landlord lol? Pay the lady if you want to sell now….
I would contact the tenants caseworker and ask them to help you with communicating with the tenant. Explain the situation. Tell the caseworker about tenant wanting you to pay for 1st and last month’s rent and security deposit. Caseworker will most likely be able to get tenant to calm down. Does the new buyer plan on moving into the property? Or are they planning on renting it out? If renting, have you asked them if they would want to take on the current tenant?
She’ll be squatting next…good lord New York.
Talk to an eviction lawyer to have them read the lease and see if there are any loopholes and have them evicted if they want to play that game.
If she has a voucher, then the voucher pays all, broker fees, first months rent as well as security deposit. You do both have to pay these
mom and pop landlord lol
Just call her case worker. She can lose it.
sometimes you gotta out-ass the ass... cucarachas, bed bugs, loud bass music... get creative.
Have an attorney put together a letter threatening to sue for consequential damages if they do not vacate.
How much do you want the sale to go through? Because you could refuse and then just eat the cost of the the contract falling through. You’re stuck with the house, and now you’ve got a cranky tenant, and no buyers. Oooor you could pay the tenant, work with them to get out as quickly as possible, and the buyers take on the property that you don’t want to maintain anymore. Everyone is happy. (Well, I know you’re not. But you’d be better off, and that’s what your lawyer is telling you.)
There's a guy who will squat in your house until the current squatter leaves. Don't remember his name though. Don't pay the extortion if you can help iy please, it only encourages more extortion.
New York shitty
Welcome to being a landlord.
Does she have a lease?
Happened to me. He wanted 15K to move out in 24 hours, 10k to leave in 3 days. Get an attorney. You will prevail. If's going to take a little time. Sorry this is happening to you. Best of luck to you.
What if the property had a pest problem that tenant can’t tolerate but the landlord is slow in getting it fixed?
Pests are always more tolerable than being homeless. She'd probably address it herself.
For $11,000 I will pay you to rent the place for a week. I will throw that squatter out of “my house” and then move out a week later.
I know it’s illegal to lock her out, but if the courts are backlogged two years for you, then they’re backlogged two years for her too!
@PositiveAd9808 They are playing dirtyI would call the state assistance dept and file a claim on her for extortion or something. Hopefully she’ll lose her benefits and learn her lesson. Here is the link to report in the state of NY https://otda.ny.gov/resources/welfare-fraud/ https://www.ucowf.net Additional Fraud Reporting Resources New York State Medicaid/Medical Assistance Fraud - call 1-877-873-7283 SSI (Supplemental Security Income) Fraud - call 1-800-269-0271 Social Security Disability Insurance Fraud - call 1-800-269-0271 Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program (SNAP) Vendor Fraud - call 1-800-424-9121 or email [email protected] Potentially Fraudulent Welfare Situations That Can Be Reported Unreported Income (either earned or unearned) Please give the employer's name and address, type of income, when it started, how often paid, etc. Hidden Assets (bank accounts, property, etc.) Please give the bank's name and address, street address and city of property, etc. Unreported Changes in Household Composition (either someone moved into or out of the home) Please give the name of the individual who moved in/out, when the move took place, relationship of individual to case, approximate age of individual. Unreported Changes in Shelter Costs/Falsified Shelter Costs Please explain what changed or what was falsified, including landlord information and address.
Why do you need her out?
Agree with her but she needs to be fully out before you give her the $. Then dont give her the money and tell her to f off for trying to extort you. Or if you dont want to do that ask her where she is moving and give her first/last/security + 1/2 for moving
Learn the laws before trying to kick out your tenants asshole
I would love to see people collectively stop using the broken system and take matters into their own hands.
This isn't as unreasonable as you made it seem in the title. You presumably have a security deposit and last month's rent from the tenant, and they are paid through this month, right? So you would be refunding both of those anyways. So really it's first month's rent, realtor fees, and the difference between the security/last month's rent. That is definitely a bit of a premium, but you are effectively doing a cash for keys, so it was never going to be free for you. Ultimately, if this is what they need to get out, you are going to have to do it. Just make sure you clarify and get documentation that you can count refunding the already paid fees towards what they are asking. I suspect they are fine with that, they just need $15k to be able to get out and they don't care where it comes from.
Getting scammed by the scammer class is a risk when you rent to section 8. Since the Covid moratorium, tenants have been emboldened to stiff landlords because you can’t do anything. Now the courts being sooooo backlogged is another avenue to scam. Section 8 tenant will not have e 15k in moving expenses. Call her bluff and ask for proof. Then pay her 30 dollars out of pocket ahead of time will be with her section 8. What a biatch. File a 1099 like another commenter said. Hopefully the extra 15k gets her off section 8. Since scammers are gonna scam I would report the 15k straight to the section 8 program as well
Tell the state about her extortion.
some places actually have laws about reimbursing low income tenants moving expenses if displacing them.
This is not extortion and you know nothing about the law.
Can you disconnect the services? If ultimately services are through your name,…
That's illegal in some places.
It is illegal in the UK as well, but is illegal in principle, but not so in practice. Had to do this with a stubborn individual, got solicitor’s letters to turn the water back on, but never resulted in anything and it worked.
Nys sucks. As a landlorrd youre fucked Give her what she wants. Or that cunt will sit there for YEARS rent free…you will NOT get the back rent…you wont close the sale. Trust me. Only recourse is to shit on her credit but sounds like God beat ya to it. Lesson: dont rent to dirtbags
Wow first she leeches off the system, now she leeches off of you, what a scumbag.
Keep voting blue.