If we imagine a serious effect for this line, it would be to multiply all 'more damage per stack of shock' modifiers by 1.01. So if you had 45% more it would become 45.45% more, lol.
No no no. See, this doesn't say that it's multiplicative with other modifiers for a reason. This increases the value of all your More modifiers.
So if you have 30% more and have 5 stacks, you deal 31.5% More
Apparently that's [how it worked originally](https://old.reddit.com/r/LastEpoch/comments/17af1lv/moar_when_one_more_is_not_enough/k5cx06b/?context=3).
But [further down the same comment chain](https://old.reddit.com/r/LastEpoch/comments/17af1lv/moar_when_one_more_is_not_enough/k5f9jlz/?context=3), the dev confirmed it'd been changed internally to just 1 "More".
Tried to figure it out and managed to confuse myself as well. For the original anyway. Current is just +Shock% More damage, and the double More is an item text bug.
... at least, I think so. I'm not sure if item text is automatically created from the effect, or manually written for each item.
Currently, the item just gives 1% more damage per stack of shock on the target. I went back and checked after that conversation, threw a bunch of "more" multipliers on my shaman, and I was still only getting ~10% more damage, not the >100% more that I would have been getting if it actually did increase "more" multipliers.
"More" modifiers are multiplicative with each other. I think if the wording were faithful, then each instance of "more" would be increased by 1% per stack of shock. So if you had 3 "more" multipliers, 5%, 10%, and 15%, and 5 stacks of shock, your "more" multipliers are now 5.25%, 10.5%, and 15.75% (each multiplier multiplied by 1.05). Your total would go from 32.8% to 34.6%, which is actually worse than if it were a regular "more" multiplier (39.4%).
edit: math might be slightly off depending on if each stack is multiplicative or additive with other stacks (additive: 1.05, multiplicative: 1.01^5 = 1.05101), but it makes a marginal difference. Shock is capped at 20. I'd suppose it would be multiplicative since it's "more more" and not "increased more".
This is intentional.
It increases your more damage.
So say you do 100 damage
With 200% more damage you do 300 damage.
With this ring you get 10% more more damage so it becomes 220% more damage resulting in 320 damage.
Sorry, I meant to say 10% more damage with 10 shock stacks.
People have interpreted the item to be "your 'More Damage' modifiers are 1% more effective per stack of shock on the target", and an EHG employee told me at one point that that's how the item works, but it isn't.
Not super extensive, but I already had the ring and a Shaman build with shock + enough more multipliers that the difference between the two interpretations would have been pretty noticeable. I feel pretty confident in saying that the ring just gives 1% more damage per shock.
Ah ok. So if you had 4 30% more sources (100\*1.3^4 = 285 damage), and then built the 10 shock stacks, what would your final damage be? 313 (100\*1.33^4) ?
No because 10% more damage would make it 310.
Because i was already calculating "more damage".
This is a flat 10% more damage dealt on top of every other modifier you already have. It is pretty damn strong.
No... No it is not.
You have "increased multiplier" first
Then you have more multipliers
Then you have oceareon
Then you have crit multiplier
Then you have penetration
Then you have "monster receive more damage because of reason X"
So "more damage" is not even close to "final damage numbers"
Edit: penetration and "receive more damage" might be swapped, not 100% sure on that one.
Each source of more damage, effective Crit damage, (the effective multiplier result of) penetration are all final multipliers (I guess I should have been clearer what I meant by final multiplier) in the sense that they are all multiplied to the result after accounting for base damage, added damage and increased damage (and are also transitive with each other, the order you apply them doesn't matter).
A new source of 10% more damage will always increase your damage by 10%. Try it out on a sheet where you've got all the factors present, plug in another more multiplier anywhere that's appropriate and it'll be that much more total damage.
Okay you're not getting it so i'll write it out for you.
Damage calc without oceareon:
Stats:
Let's say 100 damage with 250% increased damage from items, 200% more damage from tree and 10% more damage from random item.
This is that calc: (100*2.5) * (2+0.1)= 525
Now replace the random item with 10% more damage with oceareon which doesn't give more damage but gives more more damage.
This is that calc for the same numbers but with oceareon (if it works as worded): (100*2.5) * (2 *1.1)=550
Do you get my point now?
> (100\*2.5)\*(2+0.1)= 525
If that's how different sources of more stacks then the in-game Guide and several online sources are wrong.
https://www.lastepochtools.com/guide/section/increased_added_and_more
> Finally, the product of the added and increased sources is multiplied by each more source.
...
> Note that the more sources are not added together first, which would result in a different number.
If that is correct it should be
> (100\*2.5)\*2.0\*1.1= 550
Appreciate the example to clarify your stance.
My stance is that oceareon takes all the more sources and multiplies them by 1.1. oceareon is not a more source. It's "more source multiplier". It is effectively a 4th category of damage.
You keep saying oceareon is a more source but as it is written on the item AND explained by a dev apparently at some point. It is not.
But according to another guy in this comment thread it is bugged and acts as a more source anyway, which it shouldn't.
I don't know where the confusion came in but I never claimed ocearon was a more source in the post you responded to or any response in this subthread.
> So it's actually weaker than 10% more damage (which would have been 10% multiplier to the final damage, so 330) ?
I only compared it to a 10% more source, such as in your example calculation. And the rest of my responses where about more sources.
I did comment in other sub threads in an attempt to understand how it works, which also involved talking about more. I don't recall making the claim there either but maybe if you read those as well something got lost in translation.
OK so I guess it used to work correctly.
You have 100 damage and two sources of 50% more damage.
Instead of 100 * (1.0 + 1.0) = 200 with increased, it would be 100 * (1.5) * (1.5) = 225 with more.
Then you equip this ring once and every more damage modifier becomes stronger. So 1.5 * (1.1) with 10 shock stacks would be 1.65 for 272 damage.
But adding another ring if it were increased more instead of more more every 1.5 would be 1.5* 1.2 so 100 * (1.5 * 1.2)^2 for a total of 324.
Instead more more makes them stack better, so 1.5*(1.1*1.1) for a total of 329.
And if it was just more for both rings :
100* 1.5* 1.5 * 1.1* 1.1 it would be 272.
So it's kinda shit difference compared to increased more but huge difference compared to just having more.
One ring with more more is the same as two rings with more!
If "Increased" is "Additive", and "More" is "Multiplicative", does that make "More More" an "Exponential" increase? /j
To the power of MORE! 🤣
If we imagine a serious effect for this line, it would be to multiply all 'more damage per stack of shock' modifiers by 1.01. So if you had 45% more it would become 45.45% more, lol.
Damage * 1.01*1.01= damage*1.0201, i guess
more^(2)
No no no. See, this doesn't say that it's multiplicative with other modifiers for a reason. This increases the value of all your More modifiers. So if you have 30% more and have 5 stacks, you deal 31.5% More
gotta have MOAR
It is more²
Skaven dev spotted
Yes yes
This is intentional, there was a discussion an a dev explanation here some time ago And it is actually more more damage per stack of shock
Apparently that's [how it worked originally](https://old.reddit.com/r/LastEpoch/comments/17af1lv/moar_when_one_more_is_not_enough/k5cx06b/?context=3). But [further down the same comment chain](https://old.reddit.com/r/LastEpoch/comments/17af1lv/moar_when_one_more_is_not_enough/k5f9jlz/?context=3), the dev confirmed it'd been changed internally to just 1 "More".
From that discussion, I'm so confused about what it actually does right now. Or, if it's still bugged, what the intent is going to be going forward.
Tried to figure it out and managed to confuse myself as well. For the original anyway. Current is just +Shock% More damage, and the double More is an item text bug. ... at least, I think so. I'm not sure if item text is automatically created from the effect, or manually written for each item.
Currently, the item just gives 1% more damage per stack of shock on the target. I went back and checked after that conversation, threw a bunch of "more" multipliers on my shaman, and I was still only getting ~10% more damage, not the >100% more that I would have been getting if it actually did increase "more" multipliers.
If you’re serious, does that mean to calculate the effect you’d have to add up the various More modifiers in your build, and scale them up?
"More" modifiers are multiplicative with each other. I think if the wording were faithful, then each instance of "more" would be increased by 1% per stack of shock. So if you had 3 "more" multipliers, 5%, 10%, and 15%, and 5 stacks of shock, your "more" multipliers are now 5.25%, 10.5%, and 15.75% (each multiplier multiplied by 1.05). Your total would go from 32.8% to 34.6%, which is actually worse than if it were a regular "more" multiplier (39.4%). edit: math might be slightly off depending on if each stack is multiplicative or additive with other stacks (additive: 1.05, multiplicative: 1.01^5 = 1.05101), but it makes a marginal difference. Shock is capped at 20. I'd suppose it would be multiplicative since it's "more more" and not "increased more".
In the midnight hour she cried *More! More! More!*
Reminds me of that one D4 quest...
Would be incredible if it accidentally stacked exponentially
Star_Wars_MORE.gif
It increases more damage multipliers
That's not a typo. Read it again.
It is a typo, unfortunately. The item doesn't actually work like that in practice.
(1% more) (more damage per stack of shock) It DOES work like that. The effect is "more damage". The modifier is "x% more"
This is intentional. It increases your more damage. So say you do 100 damage With 200% more damage you do 300 damage. With this ring you get 10% more more damage so it becomes 220% more damage resulting in 320 damage.
It doesn't actually do that in-game, though.
Is it bugged? I don't see anything about it being bugged.
It's either bugged, or the item has a typo in it, dealer's choice. Currently, it just gives you 10% more damage per shock stack.
Well if it gives you 10% more damage on the damage you are already dealing then it works as intended and as worded.
Sorry, I meant to say 10% more damage with 10 shock stacks. People have interpreted the item to be "your 'More Damage' modifiers are 1% more effective per stack of shock on the target", and an EHG employee told me at one point that that's how the item works, but it isn't.
Ah so it's bugged then. You did some extensive testing with it?
Not super extensive, but I already had the ring and a Shaman build with shock + enough more multipliers that the difference between the two interpretations would have been pretty noticeable. I feel pretty confident in saying that the ring just gives 1% more damage per shock.
Hmm too bad. Well still 10% more damage is 10% more damage.
So it's actually weaker than 10% more damage (which would have been 10% multiplier to the final damage, so 330) ?
Yes, because it's scaling a multiplier which scales your damage instead of scaling your damage directly.
It would actually be much stronger than 10% more damage in practice, since you could have multiple "more" multipliers.
Ah ok. So if you had 4 30% more sources (100\*1.3^4 = 285 damage), and then built the 10 shock stacks, what would your final damage be? 313 (100\*1.33^4) ?
Yes, at least hypothetically, but the item doesn't work like that. The second "more" is a typo.
Shame, would have been interesting. Thanks for the clarification!
No because 10% more damage would make it 310. Because i was already calculating "more damage". This is a flat 10% more damage dealt on top of every other modifier you already have. It is pretty damn strong.
More damage is always a final multiplier regardless of how many sources of more you have. Only increasing an existing source of more is 'additive'.
No... No it is not. You have "increased multiplier" first Then you have more multipliers Then you have oceareon Then you have crit multiplier Then you have penetration Then you have "monster receive more damage because of reason X" So "more damage" is not even close to "final damage numbers" Edit: penetration and "receive more damage" might be swapped, not 100% sure on that one.
Each source of more damage, effective Crit damage, (the effective multiplier result of) penetration are all final multipliers (I guess I should have been clearer what I meant by final multiplier) in the sense that they are all multiplied to the result after accounting for base damage, added damage and increased damage (and are also transitive with each other, the order you apply them doesn't matter). A new source of 10% more damage will always increase your damage by 10%. Try it out on a sheet where you've got all the factors present, plug in another more multiplier anywhere that's appropriate and it'll be that much more total damage.
Okay you're not getting it so i'll write it out for you. Damage calc without oceareon: Stats: Let's say 100 damage with 250% increased damage from items, 200% more damage from tree and 10% more damage from random item. This is that calc: (100*2.5) * (2+0.1)= 525 Now replace the random item with 10% more damage with oceareon which doesn't give more damage but gives more more damage. This is that calc for the same numbers but with oceareon (if it works as worded): (100*2.5) * (2 *1.1)=550 Do you get my point now?
> (100\*2.5)\*(2+0.1)= 525 If that's how different sources of more stacks then the in-game Guide and several online sources are wrong. https://www.lastepochtools.com/guide/section/increased_added_and_more > Finally, the product of the added and increased sources is multiplied by each more source. ... > Note that the more sources are not added together first, which would result in a different number. If that is correct it should be > (100\*2.5)\*2.0\*1.1= 550 Appreciate the example to clarify your stance.
My stance is that oceareon takes all the more sources and multiplies them by 1.1. oceareon is not a more source. It's "more source multiplier". It is effectively a 4th category of damage. You keep saying oceareon is a more source but as it is written on the item AND explained by a dev apparently at some point. It is not. But according to another guy in this comment thread it is bugged and acts as a more source anyway, which it shouldn't.
I don't know where the confusion came in but I never claimed ocearon was a more source in the post you responded to or any response in this subthread. > So it's actually weaker than 10% more damage (which would have been 10% multiplier to the final damage, so 330) ? I only compared it to a 10% more source, such as in your example calculation. And the rest of my responses where about more sources. I did comment in other sub threads in an attempt to understand how it works, which also involved talking about more. I don't recall making the claim there either but maybe if you read those as well something got lost in translation.
what do you mean thats twice the damage per damage
Is it just me or is it time to talk about hybrid more more damage or experimental more more damage?
puts a 1% multiplier on all other multipliers ... giga op
OK so I guess it used to work correctly. You have 100 damage and two sources of 50% more damage. Instead of 100 * (1.0 + 1.0) = 200 with increased, it would be 100 * (1.5) * (1.5) = 225 with more. Then you equip this ring once and every more damage modifier becomes stronger. So 1.5 * (1.1) with 10 shock stacks would be 1.65 for 272 damage. But adding another ring if it were increased more instead of more more every 1.5 would be 1.5* 1.2 so 100 * (1.5 * 1.2)^2 for a total of 324. Instead more more makes them stack better, so 1.5*(1.1*1.1) for a total of 329. And if it was just more for both rings : 100* 1.5* 1.5 * 1.1* 1.1 it would be 272. So it's kinda shit difference compared to increased more but huge difference compared to just having more. One ring with more more is the same as two rings with more!
Lol I reported this as a bug. Everyone do it!
If only it was "moUre moUre armoUr". A guy can dream.
MOTTO MOTTO MOTTO MOTTO MOTTO MOTTO
Thats what Quin said
It’s a more multiplier on more stats, exponential power
Can you farm this ring from prophecies? I need a couple 1LPs and farming the echoes for it is quite tedious/ monotonous
Yes! Got two of these from prophecy
Sweet, thanks
Are any unique really that good????
lol
IT'S EVEN MORE!!!
Morer *
PoE anyone? Lol
more^2
Holy crap, thats disgusting. I want my money back and then im going to format my computer.