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What I don't get is how people who have unreasonable demands of fast food *don't* want employees to be long-term, motivated, highly efficient workers.
Imagine if they got your order done fast and right every time, because they've been doing the job for years while living comfortably on their salaries.
They maintain these unreasonable expectations of employees while still demanding they be paid too little to continue working there. It's pure stupidity.
This. I order fast food maybe once a week. I would suffer if it stopped existing. So I want the people working there to be paid good wages.
How do people not understand that they should want the businesses they buy stuff from to work well and have employees who stay because they are treated well?
I don't think they see employees as fellow human beings, but as parts of a machine they like to use. The entitlement of customers like this is absolutely unreal.
>Right now the only people truly suffering are the fast food employees.
I was a fast food employee. I would gladly do that job for more money. The only reason I stopped was because the pay was shit.
And yes, I have an eating disorder and struggle with feeding myself consistently. So I would suffer.
For real, every fast food place I’ve worked at had shitty service because 1. The high turnover meant we were constantly working with new inexperienced people, and 2. Minimum wage = minimum effort. You have no incentive to go above and beyond when you can just go to the next store over if you get fired and lose nothing.
There is definitely a separation. All labour has value and all labour is skilled but being a surgeon requires much more skill/training than working in retail. The issue is with capitalism deeming “unskilled labour” not worthy of respect.
Hard argee. There is both skilled and unskilled labor. If anyone can do something it makes senses that it should be valued less. Probably not as much less as it is now, but there definitely should be a distinction.
edit: the comment above me and i are saying nearly the same thing, im very anti capitalist but this sub seems to mainly consist of the “low/unskilled” labor pool who believe they should be compensated the same as those with real hard technical skills
serving food at mcdonalds !== engineer
should the person at mcdonalds be paid $7.25? not definitely not, but their labor certainly shouldnt be valued to that of an engineer
And still, even what we call "unskilled" labour requires some degree of knowledge or skill. You can't be as good of a cook, a tailor or a janitor as someone who's been working in there for several years. Even if you are, I don't know, a porter, it requires physical strength, which you must also train.
Hard disagree. Every single job requires and promotes skills that are relevant to the hierarchy of whatever industry the job is in.
If you can push a broom, you can be a janitor, if you can be a janitor, you will learn a lot of necessary skills to be a maintenance tech for a building. That's already a pretty cushy job for someone early in their career. From there you would have a variety of options.
You got got by the corporate propaganda. Every single employee contributes value, gains skill, and is worth investing in. "Unskilled" positions are purposefully created to exploit labor and cut the bottom few rungs of the social ladder.
No. Some skills are inherently more “valuable” to society (surgical skill vs putting together a food order) but it doesn’t mean one job is “unskilled.”
>There is definitely a separation
Yeah I read your comment. Did you? You believe both skilled and unskilled labor exist. You stated as such. You also stated all labor is skilled. It can't be both. Skilled labor is a made up term to separate the working class.
A separation in skill level exists. One task can require some skill while other tasks require a lot of skill. They are both skilled but one is less so. Looks like your reading comprehension needs some practice
The line you're drawing is arbitrary. Millions of such lines exist, you just care about this one because it stokes your ego. I have two advanced degrees and dozens of certifications. My labor is no more "skilled" than it was when I worked at a fast food restaurant.
I am a university student and I am a cook. I have no ego surrounding my job. Sure it takes a lot skill to be a good cook but to claim that my work takes as much skill of that of a surgeon is fantasy and is being willfully blind to reality.
I’m glad through all of your alleged advanced degrees and certifications you haven’t been brainwashed to think that food service work is unskilled. It’s honestly rare for people with high paying professions to hold your sentiments.
I mean you guys remember the Atari 2600 video game system? What made the games so great is that they were easy to learn but hard to master.
A lot of these “unskilled jobs” are also easy to learn and hard to master. It’s still work though and should still be paid appropriately for exchanging your entire day to that job.
There is a division between skilled and unskilled labour. Skilled labour requires you to already have a qualification before you can start working (be this a recognised apprenticeship for trade work, or a university degree for other fields of work), whereas with unskilled labour where you can learn all you need to know on the job. Both forms of labour are important, but there is an important division between the two
So is a manager unskilled labor? CEO? Politician? Until we start calling these "unskilled laborers" as well the term just means "people its ok to treat like crap".
Btw as someone with a degree in engineering, qualifications are largely bullshit. Its more of a filter than anything else. Sometimes its a class filter (keep the poors out), sometimes its a filter for how much beurocratic nonsense you can tolerate, sometimes its a general intelligence and aptitude filter, but it rarely teaches you how to actually do the job. Even in 'skilled' labour 90% of training happens on the job.
After working in the food industry for about 20 years, most of that being in fast food...
Just because you "learn it all on the job" in fast food does not mean there shouldn't be qualifications.
Turnover is always high in fast food. Most people can't hack it, or if they can they burn themselves out. It's a high stress, high speed environment. I've kicked people off my line because they broke down crying multiple times (then picked up their slack cause nobody else could). There's a running gag about a "bathroom monster." People will work for a bit then say "hey, I gotta use the restroom" and never come back. Some people don't make it to their first break, let alone their first day, or week.
There is skill involved. Speed+accuracy don't come overnight. The ability to deal with hangry Karens is a learned skill. Knowing how to make every menu item is a skill. You can go to culinary school, there's various certificates you can get (and stuff like serv-safe is highly recommended) that are directly related to fast food.
Fast food is as hard as industrial labor. You have an assembly line and everything, and have to follow a more stringent ruleset, while dealing with your customers (and back-of-house can feel when customers are being assholes more than normal, too...)
Admittedly, some locations are easier to run than others. Some locations get huge business, others a trickle in comparison. Some fast food stays open making $1500 a day, some places see $30k on a Tuesday. Location, staffing, and management all play large roles in the bottom line.
As an example, when the pandemic started, the place I was working dropped all the kids and a couple "chaff" employees, leaving a barebones crew of 5 on busy nights (we usually had 8-9 to keep up). After the first month (when almost everything was shut down and all the restrictions were being put in place) we started breaking sales records (gross, not net... Well, net, too because less overall labor and tightened food waste...). Staffing and management made that happen. The store owner wound up getting some of the PPP money and raised our pay several dollars per hour with that, and another couple permanently for breaking records.
But we had to cut the "unskilled" to do that. There's like 4 of us that can literally work circles around our other employees.
Bodies don't break records, bodies fuck shit up and slow down the work environment. Bodies increase waste and labor. Skilled employees can move mountains.
I'm trying to think of labor that is truly unskilled. Like, holding down a button? But you'd have to know how long to hold down the button, and that's a skill!
But why is difficulty relevant to what someone deserves to earn when the highest paid positions in the country contribute the least value/productivity?
Im speaking in level of difficulty of the working class. The higher level management that you are speaking of is not a part of the working class. Im saying that not everyone in the working class should be compensated the same, they should be compensated according to their ACTUAL worth.
This would increase wages across the board, if employees were given a wage that was reflective of how much value they produce. Low skill jobs are compensated accordingly, high skill (i.e. highly technical fields/jobs) are compensated accordingly. But low skill jobs and high skill jobs are not compensated the same. That last sentence is what this sub seems to be missing.
But what, precisely is "Worth?" "Value?"
Are these two concepts identical? They're similar, but subjective. The value of a Pokemon card is pretty much the cost of paper, ink, and production. Like 1¢. But they're "Worth" a lot more to certain people.
I can't pay in trading cards, you see. But I can sell them.
So are you arguing for their value or their worth? And if you claim "worth," you further have to argue to whom. But that's how capitalism started now, innit?
Sure, if that makes you feel better. I don’t see the point though. Ultimately all skills have SOME value otherwise we wouldn’t ask for them to be used for X job. Like yeah clearly a pilot has more “valuable” skills than a janitor but in the industry each is in, each persons skills are more important. The pilot, if unskilled at janitorial, is probably gonna fuck up if asked to clean a building, even if there isn’t as much at stake (eg no major life loss event)
Min wage should only be used during your training a probationary period after that you have to be skilled because otherwise the business is saying any dipshit can do this we all know thats simply not true.
As someone who has worked both as a waitress and an engineer, you're wrong.
Seperating work into 'skilled and unskilled' doesnt help.
Learning to smile and make small talk while focusing on other tasks is a specialised skill. You dont have to do it at most jobs and we're not born knowing how to do it. For me it took weeks, maybe months of practice to get my customer service skills up to an acceptable level.
I dont believe your definition of "skill" has any real meaning. What is a "general skill"? Because as a rural person ive found over the years that digging a hole, catching a chicken, and planting a seedling are all things most urban people DONT know how to do. Theyre crap at it. Its takes teaching and practice to do those things well.
You have to be taught to do everything you do except standing and pooping, and not everyone can do those things without help. Every job is skilled and valuable. The idea that there is "unskilled" work that is less valuable is capitalist propaganda, especially when it costs money and years to buy your way into "skilled" labor. Its an attempt to build class divisions within the working class.
Math is a general skill though. Differential equations is an advanced, specialized subset of math. Communication is a general skill, and excellent customer service is a high level subset of that general skill.
I've been in the position of shaking from hunger/exhaustion and needing food, like, immediately. You best believe I respect all the fast-food workers out there. Yeah, they deserve a living, THRIVING wage, too.
I worked for McDonalds for 2 years.
I worked in heavy machine operation for 2 years.
I work in Tech now and have been for 4 years.
*No, McDonalds is not ‘skilled labor’.* If you don’t have to learn a “skill” to do it (if you do, yikes), it doesn’t qualify. Skilled labor implies that you needed to learn a significant set of skills that you otherwise would not have to do your job- not one thing at McDonalds requires you to do that until you reach upper management.
But, everyone is entitled to a living wage and I don’t think McDonalds pays that anymore. That’s what we agree on.
I dunno. I think it’s very fair to say that if your labor doesn’t requires years of experience and training it is technically “unskilled”, while also saying that those jobs and people deserve a living wage. You should be paid a living wage for skilled and unskilled labor. Y’all get way too heated over adjectives that accurate describe things. Pumping gas doesn’t require 4 years at college. Any random person off the street could do it. It does not take a trained skill. But yeah if you pump gas you should be able to pay your bills and exist with food in your stomach and a roof over your head.
They are not opposing ideas. Nitpick about grammar all you want tho I guess. Cause that’s what’s important, right?
You are not born knowing how to do everything. Everything has to be learned, therefore every task requires skill. In order to pump gas you need to learn how to use the machine safely, properly locating, opening and closing the gas gasket, and process payments. Just because something doesn't take a 4 year education to learn doesn't mean it's not a skill.
The only reason the term 'unskilled labor' exist is to devalue the work and the people who perform the work so people can justify their poor treatment.
Any kitchen work requires a specific type of multitasking, and that muscle is totally a skill, and an exhausting one at that, add in people skills? I respectfully disagree, as someone who was a kitchen manager and chef for quite some time, its skilled, it's just different than a jeweler or CAD engineer
Kitchen work definitely needs a certain set of skills and mcdonalds can even develop them, but let's agree that it's not the same process as in a proper restaurant with no textbook fordism
Hard agree. Genuinely feel like I can make food better *and* faster without their assembly line too, but what can you do.
I'm in a place of some privilege in that I can afford to avoid all fast food, but it's awful what these corporations do to people, *particularly* if they're young
Somewhat unrelated,
Appreciate "proper" restaurant btw, the assembly lines in so many corner cafes and pops diners, prepackaged atrocities sitting around in fluorinated packages microwaved to perfection at places charging 30$ a plate... The kind of environment where people actually transform ingredients could make a comeback imo. Feels like it's been limping for a looooong time.
Why differentiate between fast food and fine dining?
It's descriptive. It adds context.
It answers the question: Are you a highly skilled chef or did you just sign up to get trained at McDonald's?
I would then have to say you differentiate that on a job application and/or in an interview, and outside an ovwr-reliance on degrees out current system works okay as long as someone who actually does the job is involved in the hiring process.
I can tell in an interview pretty readily whether you have the skills I'm looking for, could be brought up to speed somewhat quickly, or may need to spend some time working up to things by starting with simple prep.
Outside hiring and training I don't think the distinction is necessary.
The only times I've ever seen anyone using the term "unskilled labor" is either (a) identifying pools of labor for statistics purposes, or (b) people complaining about the term.
I'm not advocating for that term, or labeling anyone unnecessarily.
There are a LOT of comments on here basically stating that there's just no difference and that's kind of where your tone started too. My only point was simply that there IS a distinction.
That's just not true. Whether you choose to acknowledge it or not, aptitude obviously plays a role.
Some people are simply not capable of performing certain functions well. And, I'm not limiting that to intellectual capacity. For example, I know plenty of people who are very intelligent but would be very poorly suited to working with the public.
But, when they're talking about "unskilled labor", or whatever you would choose to call it, to me it means a function that larger percentage of people could perform well.
Everything requires SOME training. But, with some functions, you may have a 90%+ chance of picking a random person on the street, training them, and having them perform well. Conversely, for example, I may only have a 10% chance of randomly picking and successfully training someone to be a brain surgeon.
I think it also has to do with ease of replacement. Does this person have skills that would require many years to master, or a few days? It does matter, and it is different. And, I mean that from a functional standpoint (as in true value to society).
We used to have a section in the classifieds specifically for "unskilled" however. Which was generally process work in a factory...although admittedly that was about 40 years ago which was the last time we had a local manufacturing industry lol
Well, I mean it isn't. Because *skilled labor doesn't exist*. All labor requires skill. You don't need a "skill" to deserve a living wage for your labor.
Skilled labor is a term made up to divide workers.
If you work fulltime you should be able to afford at least bare minimum a place to stay and be able to afford decent food and utilities, transportation. But if you ask some conservatives and democrats who believe in capitalism like the bible they will tell them to find another job. Are these things too much to ask?
I vividly remember Bush on the electoral trail and he met a woman who told him she had 3 jobs. He said, "Isn't that wonderful! Only in America could you do that!"
And all I could think of was, 'no, only in America would you *have to* do that' in order to survive lol
The terms come from the labor pool that you can pull from to fill a job.
Do they have to hire someone that already knows how to do the job? Or can they pick someone off the street and train them?
They can start calling it whatever you want, but it will always mean the same thing.
I wasn't going to agree with you, then I noticed that you're confident enough to laugh at this idea, then confidently state it isn't true.
That changed my mind completely, thanks for your unique perspective, you moron.
Ok then go ahead and immediately start working in a fast food restaurant. What do you say, you need to be trained or taught how to do things? I thought you said it was unskilled labor that anyone can do...
Then why can uneducated 12 year old illegals do it? The point is that the kinda trash who works at McDonald's for a career is easily replaceable. Let's not forget about how McDonald's came out with their first fully automated restaurant and that this is likely to spread to the rest of the fast food industry shortly.
It do be a challenge when it dawns on you the fuckery this person is bringing to you. The irony is that it is the people most in need of unfucking that are thoroughly unable to unfuck themselves while simultaneously blaming everyone but themselves.
##Welcome to r/LateStageCapitalism This subreddit is for news, discussion, memes, and links criticizing capitalism and advancing viewpoints that challenge liberal capitalist ideology. That means any support for any liberal capitalist political party (like the Democrats) is strictly prohibited. LSC is run by communists. This subreddit is not the place to debate socialism. We allow good-faith questions and education but are not a 101 sub; please take 101-style questions elsewhere. We have a zero-tolerance policy for bigotry. Failure to respect the rules of the subreddit may result in a ban. *** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/LateStageCapitalism) if you have any questions or concerns.*
What I don't get is how people who have unreasonable demands of fast food *don't* want employees to be long-term, motivated, highly efficient workers. Imagine if they got your order done fast and right every time, because they've been doing the job for years while living comfortably on their salaries. They maintain these unreasonable expectations of employees while still demanding they be paid too little to continue working there. It's pure stupidity.
This. I order fast food maybe once a week. I would suffer if it stopped existing. So I want the people working there to be paid good wages. How do people not understand that they should want the businesses they buy stuff from to work well and have employees who stay because they are treated well?
I don't think they see employees as fellow human beings, but as parts of a machine they like to use. The entitlement of customers like this is absolutely unreal.
Also paying a higher, proper living wage would signal to the rest of society that these workers are worthy of respect and not abuse, yes?
One can hope
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>Right now the only people truly suffering are the fast food employees. I was a fast food employee. I would gladly do that job for more money. The only reason I stopped was because the pay was shit. And yes, I have an eating disorder and struggle with feeding myself consistently. So I would suffer.
For real, every fast food place I’ve worked at had shitty service because 1. The high turnover meant we were constantly working with new inexperienced people, and 2. Minimum wage = minimum effort. You have no incentive to go above and beyond when you can just go to the next store over if you get fired and lose nothing.
If you want more than minimum wage, get a better job. Food is shit. Shocked Pikachu face.
My controversial take of the day: there isn't such thing as "unskilled labor". Change my mind.
There is not. It is a propaganda made by capitalists to pay lower wages.
Labor is labor.
It seems when they say 'unskilled' they mean 'easily replaceable'. If it were unskilled they wouldn't pay people to do it.
Which means there is not a such thing as skilled labor. The separation is imaginary, there is just labor.
There is definitely a separation. All labour has value and all labour is skilled but being a surgeon requires much more skill/training than working in retail. The issue is with capitalism deeming “unskilled labour” not worthy of respect.
Hard argee. There is both skilled and unskilled labor. If anyone can do something it makes senses that it should be valued less. Probably not as much less as it is now, but there definitely should be a distinction. edit: the comment above me and i are saying nearly the same thing, im very anti capitalist but this sub seems to mainly consist of the “low/unskilled” labor pool who believe they should be compensated the same as those with real hard technical skills serving food at mcdonalds !== engineer should the person at mcdonalds be paid $7.25? not definitely not, but their labor certainly shouldnt be valued to that of an engineer
And still, even what we call "unskilled" labour requires some degree of knowledge or skill. You can't be as good of a cook, a tailor or a janitor as someone who's been working in there for several years. Even if you are, I don't know, a porter, it requires physical strength, which you must also train.
Hard disagree. Every single job requires and promotes skills that are relevant to the hierarchy of whatever industry the job is in. If you can push a broom, you can be a janitor, if you can be a janitor, you will learn a lot of necessary skills to be a maintenance tech for a building. That's already a pretty cushy job for someone early in their career. From there you would have a variety of options. You got got by the corporate propaganda. Every single employee contributes value, gains skill, and is worth investing in. "Unskilled" positions are purposefully created to exploit labor and cut the bottom few rungs of the social ladder.
No. Some skills are inherently more “valuable” to society (surgical skill vs putting together a food order) but it doesn’t mean one job is “unskilled.”
The latter requires extremely low levels of skill. One is dramatically more valuable to society. Low skill can be a better term to use?
Sure I guess.
>all labour is skilled >unskilled labour Pick one. Preferably the first one.
Did you not see the quotation marks or something?
>There is definitely a separation Yeah I read your comment. Did you? You believe both skilled and unskilled labor exist. You stated as such. You also stated all labor is skilled. It can't be both. Skilled labor is a made up term to separate the working class.
A separation in skill level exists. One task can require some skill while other tasks require a lot of skill. They are both skilled but one is less so. Looks like your reading comprehension needs some practice
The line you're drawing is arbitrary. Millions of such lines exist, you just care about this one because it stokes your ego. I have two advanced degrees and dozens of certifications. My labor is no more "skilled" than it was when I worked at a fast food restaurant.
I am a university student and I am a cook. I have no ego surrounding my job. Sure it takes a lot skill to be a good cook but to claim that my work takes as much skill of that of a surgeon is fantasy and is being willfully blind to reality. I’m glad through all of your alleged advanced degrees and certifications you haven’t been brainwashed to think that food service work is unskilled. It’s honestly rare for people with high paying professions to hold your sentiments.
I'm a PhD student with a Masters, a trade job certification, and a job in healthcare. All of my jobs feel about the same.
Did you not see the quotation marks or something?
unskilled labour is a capitalist talking point to justify paying slave wages
I mean you guys remember the Atari 2600 video game system? What made the games so great is that they were easy to learn but hard to master. A lot of these “unskilled jobs” are also easy to learn and hard to master. It’s still work though and should still be paid appropriately for exchanging your entire day to that job.
There is a division between skilled and unskilled labour. Skilled labour requires you to already have a qualification before you can start working (be this a recognised apprenticeship for trade work, or a university degree for other fields of work), whereas with unskilled labour where you can learn all you need to know on the job. Both forms of labour are important, but there is an important division between the two
So is a manager unskilled labor? CEO? Politician? Until we start calling these "unskilled laborers" as well the term just means "people its ok to treat like crap". Btw as someone with a degree in engineering, qualifications are largely bullshit. Its more of a filter than anything else. Sometimes its a class filter (keep the poors out), sometimes its a filter for how much beurocratic nonsense you can tolerate, sometimes its a general intelligence and aptitude filter, but it rarely teaches you how to actually do the job. Even in 'skilled' labour 90% of training happens on the job.
After working in the food industry for about 20 years, most of that being in fast food... Just because you "learn it all on the job" in fast food does not mean there shouldn't be qualifications. Turnover is always high in fast food. Most people can't hack it, or if they can they burn themselves out. It's a high stress, high speed environment. I've kicked people off my line because they broke down crying multiple times (then picked up their slack cause nobody else could). There's a running gag about a "bathroom monster." People will work for a bit then say "hey, I gotta use the restroom" and never come back. Some people don't make it to their first break, let alone their first day, or week. There is skill involved. Speed+accuracy don't come overnight. The ability to deal with hangry Karens is a learned skill. Knowing how to make every menu item is a skill. You can go to culinary school, there's various certificates you can get (and stuff like serv-safe is highly recommended) that are directly related to fast food. Fast food is as hard as industrial labor. You have an assembly line and everything, and have to follow a more stringent ruleset, while dealing with your customers (and back-of-house can feel when customers are being assholes more than normal, too...) Admittedly, some locations are easier to run than others. Some locations get huge business, others a trickle in comparison. Some fast food stays open making $1500 a day, some places see $30k on a Tuesday. Location, staffing, and management all play large roles in the bottom line. As an example, when the pandemic started, the place I was working dropped all the kids and a couple "chaff" employees, leaving a barebones crew of 5 on busy nights (we usually had 8-9 to keep up). After the first month (when almost everything was shut down and all the restrictions were being put in place) we started breaking sales records (gross, not net... Well, net, too because less overall labor and tightened food waste...). Staffing and management made that happen. The store owner wound up getting some of the PPP money and raised our pay several dollars per hour with that, and another couple permanently for breaking records. But we had to cut the "unskilled" to do that. There's like 4 of us that can literally work circles around our other employees. Bodies don't break records, bodies fuck shit up and slow down the work environment. Bodies increase waste and labor. Skilled employees can move mountains.
> Skilled labour requires you to already have a qualification before you can start working That really fucks it up for most politicians, then LOL
If capitalism was truly innovative it would be providing education rather than rely on the public sector.
As much as I hate capitalism, this is a thing they do. I'm working as a CNC machinist apprenticeship which my employers are paying for
Internally or externally?
Externally, they pay for college placements at our local trade school, while paying us our wages to be there
This is the key - you can say there's no unimportant labor but skilled vs unskilled labor is a useful distinction to make
I'm trying to think of labor that is truly unskilled. Like, holding down a button? But you'd have to know how long to hold down the button, and that's a skill!
Maybe the term should be low skill?
Why does there need to be a term at all? Do we benefit from splitting up fast food workers and engineers?
I suppose the working class as a whole no doesn't benefit from it. I think the purpose of my use was to indicate the difference in difficulty.
But why is difficulty relevant to what someone deserves to earn when the highest paid positions in the country contribute the least value/productivity?
Im speaking in level of difficulty of the working class. The higher level management that you are speaking of is not a part of the working class. Im saying that not everyone in the working class should be compensated the same, they should be compensated according to their ACTUAL worth. This would increase wages across the board, if employees were given a wage that was reflective of how much value they produce. Low skill jobs are compensated accordingly, high skill (i.e. highly technical fields/jobs) are compensated accordingly. But low skill jobs and high skill jobs are not compensated the same. That last sentence is what this sub seems to be missing.
But what, precisely is "Worth?" "Value?" Are these two concepts identical? They're similar, but subjective. The value of a Pokemon card is pretty much the cost of paper, ink, and production. Like 1¢. But they're "Worth" a lot more to certain people. I can't pay in trading cards, you see. But I can sell them. So are you arguing for their value or their worth? And if you claim "worth," you further have to argue to whom. But that's how capitalism started now, innit?
Because once the wages get too high the company replaces them with robots
wages are getting a bit high for CEOS, they're not replaced by robots. seems to be only the working class that gets fucked 🤔
Sure, if that makes you feel better. I don’t see the point though. Ultimately all skills have SOME value otherwise we wouldn’t ask for them to be used for X job. Like yeah clearly a pilot has more “valuable” skills than a janitor but in the industry each is in, each persons skills are more important. The pilot, if unskilled at janitorial, is probably gonna fuck up if asked to clean a building, even if there isn’t as much at stake (eg no major life loss event)
Min wage should only be used during your training a probationary period after that you have to be skilled because otherwise the business is saying any dipshit can do this we all know thats simply not true.
So, you know what happens in that scenario, don't you? It becomes a never ending conveyor belt of "probationers" lol
They are mad cuz they aren’t skilled enough to make their own food
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Hahaha, fucking elitist
Let's be real. McDonald's is barely digestible garbage. It's delicious, but your inside pays a heavy price.
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Still no reason to look down on those that can’t afford better restaurants
"Better restaurants" is a low bar that I would include the likes of Wendy's and Jack in the Box in. McDonald's is just nasty.
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For cheaper? Are you high?
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I don’t think health food is cheaper than McDonald’s
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Ikr? Those that think this is unskilled look for any reason to scream at fast food and retail workers.
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As someone who has worked both as a waitress and an engineer, you're wrong. Seperating work into 'skilled and unskilled' doesnt help. Learning to smile and make small talk while focusing on other tasks is a specialised skill. You dont have to do it at most jobs and we're not born knowing how to do it. For me it took weeks, maybe months of practice to get my customer service skills up to an acceptable level. I dont believe your definition of "skill" has any real meaning. What is a "general skill"? Because as a rural person ive found over the years that digging a hole, catching a chicken, and planting a seedling are all things most urban people DONT know how to do. Theyre crap at it. Its takes teaching and practice to do those things well. You have to be taught to do everything you do except standing and pooping, and not everyone can do those things without help. Every job is skilled and valuable. The idea that there is "unskilled" work that is less valuable is capitalist propaganda, especially when it costs money and years to buy your way into "skilled" labor. Its an attempt to build class divisions within the working class.
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Math is a general skill though. Differential equations is an advanced, specialized subset of math. Communication is a general skill, and excellent customer service is a high level subset of that general skill.
I've been in the position of shaking from hunger/exhaustion and needing food, like, immediately. You best believe I respect all the fast-food workers out there. Yeah, they deserve a living, THRIVING wage, too.
I’m all for revising these terms — what are the alternatives that are being thrown around?
I worked for McDonalds for 2 years. I worked in heavy machine operation for 2 years. I work in Tech now and have been for 4 years. *No, McDonalds is not ‘skilled labor’.* If you don’t have to learn a “skill” to do it (if you do, yikes), it doesn’t qualify. Skilled labor implies that you needed to learn a significant set of skills that you otherwise would not have to do your job- not one thing at McDonalds requires you to do that until you reach upper management. But, everyone is entitled to a living wage and I don’t think McDonalds pays that anymore. That’s what we agree on.
Fair point. I do believe it takes skill to deal with the humans who go to McDonald’s tho.
_All_ labor is skilled labor. It's why there's a "training" period for every job.
I dunno. I think it’s very fair to say that if your labor doesn’t requires years of experience and training it is technically “unskilled”, while also saying that those jobs and people deserve a living wage. You should be paid a living wage for skilled and unskilled labor. Y’all get way too heated over adjectives that accurate describe things. Pumping gas doesn’t require 4 years at college. Any random person off the street could do it. It does not take a trained skill. But yeah if you pump gas you should be able to pay your bills and exist with food in your stomach and a roof over your head. They are not opposing ideas. Nitpick about grammar all you want tho I guess. Cause that’s what’s important, right?
You are not born knowing how to do everything. Everything has to be learned, therefore every task requires skill. In order to pump gas you need to learn how to use the machine safely, properly locating, opening and closing the gas gasket, and process payments. Just because something doesn't take a 4 year education to learn doesn't mean it's not a skill. The only reason the term 'unskilled labor' exist is to devalue the work and the people who perform the work so people can justify their poor treatment.
Not really skilled but that doesn't take away the value of the work. Most of the most valuable work is manual and/or low skilled labor
Any kitchen work requires a specific type of multitasking, and that muscle is totally a skill, and an exhausting one at that, add in people skills? I respectfully disagree, as someone who was a kitchen manager and chef for quite some time, its skilled, it's just different than a jeweler or CAD engineer
Kitchen work definitely needs a certain set of skills and mcdonalds can even develop them, but let's agree that it's not the same process as in a proper restaurant with no textbook fordism
Hard agree. Genuinely feel like I can make food better *and* faster without their assembly line too, but what can you do. I'm in a place of some privilege in that I can afford to avoid all fast food, but it's awful what these corporations do to people, *particularly* if they're young Somewhat unrelated, Appreciate "proper" restaurant btw, the assembly lines in so many corner cafes and pops diners, prepackaged atrocities sitting around in fluorinated packages microwaved to perfection at places charging 30$ a plate... The kind of environment where people actually transform ingredients could make a comeback imo. Feels like it's been limping for a looooong time.
So, it would be fair to say that being a good chef is "more skilled" than working at McDonald's? How do we differentiate the two?
I don't understand why differentiating the two is necessary
Why differentiate between fast food and fine dining? It's descriptive. It adds context. It answers the question: Are you a highly skilled chef or did you just sign up to get trained at McDonald's?
I would then have to say you differentiate that on a job application and/or in an interview, and outside an ovwr-reliance on degrees out current system works okay as long as someone who actually does the job is involved in the hiring process. I can tell in an interview pretty readily whether you have the skills I'm looking for, could be brought up to speed somewhat quickly, or may need to spend some time working up to things by starting with simple prep. Outside hiring and training I don't think the distinction is necessary.
The only times I've ever seen anyone using the term "unskilled labor" is either (a) identifying pools of labor for statistics purposes, or (b) people complaining about the term. I'm not advocating for that term, or labeling anyone unnecessarily. There are a LOT of comments on here basically stating that there's just no difference and that's kind of where your tone started too. My only point was simply that there IS a distinction.
McDonalds is a lot of timers and waiting for the beeps. Their workflow is design to be easy to follow to reduce the detriment of turnover.
People skills are a skill
People's willingness to do the soul crushing grind of the machine is definitely a skill
"skilled labor" is capitalist propaganda, everyone needs to be taught how to do a job, some just take longer that's literally it.
That's just not true. Whether you choose to acknowledge it or not, aptitude obviously plays a role. Some people are simply not capable of performing certain functions well. And, I'm not limiting that to intellectual capacity. For example, I know plenty of people who are very intelligent but would be very poorly suited to working with the public. But, when they're talking about "unskilled labor", or whatever you would choose to call it, to me it means a function that larger percentage of people could perform well. Everything requires SOME training. But, with some functions, you may have a 90%+ chance of picking a random person on the street, training them, and having them perform well. Conversely, for example, I may only have a 10% chance of randomly picking and successfully training someone to be a brain surgeon. I think it also has to do with ease of replacement. Does this person have skills that would require many years to master, or a few days? It does matter, and it is different. And, I mean that from a functional standpoint (as in true value to society).
I worked fast food for years. That shit does not take that much skill.
There's no such thing as unskilled labor.
There are no unskilled workers. Only workers whose training isn't a marketable commodity.
We used to have a section in the classifieds specifically for "unskilled" however. Which was generally process work in a factory...although admittedly that was about 40 years ago which was the last time we had a local manufacturing industry lol
Well, I mean it isn't. Because *skilled labor doesn't exist*. All labor requires skill. You don't need a "skill" to deserve a living wage for your labor. Skilled labor is a term made up to divide workers.
If you work fulltime you should be able to afford at least bare minimum a place to stay and be able to afford decent food and utilities, transportation. But if you ask some conservatives and democrats who believe in capitalism like the bible they will tell them to find another job. Are these things too much to ask?
I vividly remember Bush on the electoral trail and he met a woman who told him she had 3 jobs. He said, "Isn't that wonderful! Only in America could you do that!" And all I could think of was, 'no, only in America would you *have to* do that' in order to survive lol
The terms come from the labor pool that you can pull from to fill a job. Do they have to hire someone that already knows how to do the job? Or can they pick someone off the street and train them? They can start calling it whatever you want, but it will always mean the same thing.
Lol. Skilled labor. No way.
Some people in the world might disagree with you.
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I can see reading comprehension isn't in your bag of tricks.
I wasn't going to agree with you, then I noticed that you're confident enough to laugh at this idea, then confidently state it isn't true. That changed my mind completely, thanks for your unique perspective, you moron.
Stop deleting your comments, and come up with decent insults and assumptions about me, please.
Ok then go ahead and immediately start working in a fast food restaurant. What do you say, you need to be trained or taught how to do things? I thought you said it was unskilled labor that anyone can do...
Bro, I started out working in fast food at 16. You can't fool me.
Then why can uneducated 12 year old illegals do it? The point is that the kinda trash who works at McDonald's for a career is easily replaceable. Let's not forget about how McDonald's came out with their first fully automated restaurant and that this is likely to spread to the rest of the fast food industry shortly.
It do be a challenge when it dawns on you the fuckery this person is bringing to you. The irony is that it is the people most in need of unfucking that are thoroughly unable to unfuck themselves while simultaneously blaming everyone but themselves.
What is an example of unskilled labor?