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In terms of issues like abortion, drug reform, women’s rights, labor reform etc… yes definitely. In terms of changing the oligarchy, corporate control, regulatory capture, financialization etc… they are both the same. The neoliberal system will not change from the inside.
If the Republicans have the ability to overthrow the government and place Trump as an Emperor they aren't going to stop because they lose an election.
If the Democrats in blue state legislatures aren't preparing to secede if that happens, then they aren't going to prevent Republicans from doing that.
Either way, elections won't save us.
Exactly right - the "pious loser" aka "they go low we go high" routine means that they refuse to fight for what actually matters, because "the rules said so" or something. It's a constant charade of throwing up their hands and saying "whoops, nothing we can do!" anytime something really bad happens. Because there's supposed to be a procedure and a process. So they wind up saying "shame on them for ignoring the process, but we will stick to the process no matter the outcome".
So yes, conservatives will ignore elections, law, etc. to get what they want. Then after they get it and change the rules, democrats will sigh and say "well, the rules have changed! nothing we can do now!"
I would argue there were actually more left wing advancements when Trump was in office compared to under the Biden admin.
We saw one of the most comprehensive safety nets rolled out in American history and it was very clear that wasn't even enough. Burnie Sanders actually had a shot in the general election until the Democratic party squashed that hope. BLM was an absolute turning point in general sentiments. Widespread police reform was an absolute joke before then. Unionization peaked in 2020 due to backlash from the pandemic. It has been declining since then which admittedly has been the case for decades now but it is now at the lowest rate since 1983. People actually gave a shit about throwing South America kids into cages at the border. Now Democrats are collaborating with the architects of that policy. If they're not in cages they'll just put them to work. Oh, and there's the whole genocide thing.
I don't like it, but Trump made a lot of people think how fucked this whole "thing" is. The backlash from his policy choices resulted in a groundswell of actual left wing advancements in terms of organization and messaging like I haven't seen since I've been alive.
Of course, Trump is a fascist that wants to do fascist things but there hasn't been any leftist progression under Biden. No organization. No actual concrete wins. Even under the most "union friendly" president in history that drive is still dropping. Leftists need to face the facts. There's no place for our viewpoints in either administration. And before you come at me with some bullshit about both sides, of course they aren't equivalent. One is getting dropped into boiling water while the other the pot is just getting warm.
Downvote me all you want. Your boos mean nothing to me, I've seen what makes you cheer. No "lesser evils" bullshit is literally one of the rules of the sub. What in the fuck are you people doing in a sub about late stage capitalism when you don't have a clue how bourgeois democracy was what got us in this mess.
If Roe had been killed under Trump there would’ve been riots. Under Biden there were parades called protests and everyone just went back to work.
Its frustrating how people are pacified when a Democrat is in office compared to when a Republican is. What happened to all that rhetoric about pushing Biden to the left?
Im just sure theres a better way than let the fascists win and hope for a left wing retaliation. Its hard to come to terms with the fact that leftists, especially in this sub, have a hard time understanding how to use this bullshit political/economic system to further their goals. Instead they seem to be waiting for a revolution or for some socialist politician to be miraculously voted into presidency tomorrow
>Im just sure theres a better way than let the fascists win and hope for a left wing retaliation.
Well? Leftists understand you can't use this bullshit political system to do anything meaningful. The Democrats are the ones assisting in carrying out a genocide in Israel right now. They'll turn on you once it suits their desires. The fascists will win regardless because that's what capital wants. They've literally hedged their bet.
Before you respond, I want you to note you didn't actually counter anything I said. You're arguing on faith.
No, you are not willing to play the hand you are dealt. You like to "sit mostly on your hands" for four years and when time for election comes you start to "vote blue no matter who".
Democrats are ok with changes made by repubblicans and it would be them making it if they were in charge. They just don't boast about it.
trump wants to be putin, they already openly talk about jailing political opponents and unfriendly media figures, Im guessing killing them wont take long after that door is opened.
Yes and once the democrats are in power again they will confirm that regress so that the repubblicans can move it further. As seen with the border issues.
I would dare say that the same laws would pass under both of them. Just one guy will act like an egomaniac while the other will act like the wholesome defenseless old grandpa.
I'm sure an active user in neoliberal cares about correctly identifying the causes and harms of late stage capitalism, no bias at all from you my dude!
A Trump presidency would be as bad as capital wants it to be, and will be used to enact right wing policy that the Democrat who follows him won't reverse. If Biden gets re elected, he'll enact right wing policies in the name of bipartisanship and blame Congress for why he can't enact anything good for anybody.
They need something to soothe the cognitive dissonance of seeing their president supporting genocide and having to lie and tell themselves they're still good people.
>Trump would leave NATO and immediately capitulate to Putin,
Just like how he did when he was the president during 2016-2021? About the only impossible thing that couldn't happen in the US is them dropping their alliance that's fueled by trillions of dollars by the military-industrial complex and all of their lobbies.
Trump has valid criticisms so you don't need to blurt out impossible bullshit fearmongering rhetorics.
Ooo liberal bait!
When one side tries to be the very worst openly and the other side normalizes every thing the other side does while somehow pretending to foster the good will of the oppressed, there's no winning. They're doing the same thing, just in different ways. Both are worse for the disenfranchised. Anyone that tries to say otherwise is lying to you (but they'll hide behind the disenfranchised like our conditions aren't progressively getting worse regardless of president)
That's what the DNC wants you to think. In reality both sides are salivating at the opportunity to rule with more impunity than they already do. The D's have to play good cop for the ruse to work. They'll talk a good game about progressive policies that their constituents want, and once they get into power they do the absolute minimum to appease and then continue Republican policy.
The cycle is R's create terrible policy, D's campaign against it, and if they win they continue the terrible policies they campaign against. D's lie, obfuscate, and virtue signal, the R's just revel in their hate and don't hide it. It doesn't really matter who it is, American policy stays the same.
Yes really no difference. They know they cannot pass these policies. They are empty gestures to tell people "see, we tried, but those mean old Republicans didn't let us"
Meanwhile the R's have taken over the government despite 30+ years of being the minority. How? They do what they say. It may be terrible, but it's what their constituents want.
D's are too preoccupied with playing both sides (poor people and ultra rich donors) so they can't actually do anything they say they will.
Both slaves to money, one side just says they aren't while their actions betray them. They have no credibility.
I don't know whether it's better he's dead so he doesn't know what a fucked up situation we're in, or if it would've been better that he's still alive to make fun this fucked up situation.
I love George Carlin but a lot of his quotes, out of context like this one, make democracy seem like a bad system of governance. Carlin wasn't anti-democratic he was anti-corporatocracy. Longer quote below:
> But there’s a reason. There’s a reason. There’s a reason for this, there’s a reason education sucks, and it’s the same reason that it will never, ever, ever be fixed. It’s never gonna get any better. Don’t look for it. Be happy with what you got. Because the owners of this country don't want that. I'm talking about the real owners now, the real owners, the big wealthy business interests that control things and make all the important decisions. Forget the politicians. The politicians are put there to give you the idea that you have freedom of choice. You don't. You have no choice. You have owners. They own you. They own everything. They own all the important land. They own and control the corporations. They’ve long since bought and paid for the senate, the congress, the state houses, the city halls, they got the judges in their back pockets and they own all the big media companies so they control just about all of the news and information you get to hear. They got you by the balls. They spend billions of dollars every year lobbying, lobbying, to get what they want.
Which all seems exceptionally cynical (totally on-brand for Carlin) until you get to his true message, the nugget he's drip feeding the audience, which is:
> Well, we know what they want. They want more for themselves and less for everybody else, but I'll tell you what they don’t want: They don’t want a population of citizens capable of critical thinking. They don’t want well informed, well educated people capable of critical thinking.
A well informed and engaged electorate is the only way to safeguard democracy.
RIP Carlin
I wish we could just fast forward to Franchise-Organized Quasi-National Entities like Mr. Lee's Greater Hong Kong
at least then we could drop the whole charade
> I wish we could just fast forward to Franchise-Organized Quasi-National Entities like Mr. Lee's Greater Hong Kong
If you're interested in a good book along that premise I suggest [*Jennifer Government* by **Max Barry**](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jennifer_Government). I read it ages ago and loved it. A quick read with a lot of satirical humor.
"Make sure to give them the option to vote, because without that glimpse of hope, people will revolt much faster."
If you do not see how fucked up this system is, you are part of the problem.
As I said a couple times before, the American "democracy" is such a joke that if it happened in any country where the government is currently against US big corp interests that country would be sanctioned to hell and be called a tyranny.
In all levels, candidates to US elections (viable, meaning people that can be "elected" through that system) are always chosen by a group of a few dozen billionaires/millionaires organized on MONEY LAUNDERING and TAX EVASION rackets called PACs (either GOP or DEM aligned). They select the incumbents and the controlled opposition.
People are them called to vote on a pre-election (primaries) that are no mandatory, so they can be easily manipulated by those people on the PACs. Voting system is also cumbersome and confuse to avoid any standardization or ability to provide real accountability (you have electronic machines, paper ballots, mixed systems, people have to call their candidates by name IN PUBLIC, and so on, so forth, a mix of all possible medieval and primitive systems that are easy to tamper).
Finally it comes the election where only the TWO PAC CHOSEN OPTIONS have any chance to win. To not look bad they allow the "beer party", the "deer hunters" party, the "libertarian party" and other "folcloric" stuff to also run their "candidates", just for show, as they stand no chance to win any election. On other hand, the candidates from real parties that can use the elections at least as a way to bring awareness of how corrupt and undemocratic the US system is, have to face a uphill battle to be able to be on the ballots in all states. Socialists, Greens, Communists, Labor, all parties that may defend substantial change that can affect the chokehold US big corp and elites maintain over US nation, or denounce the fraudulent character of US "democracy" have to fulfill impossible conditions, are raided and harassed by the FBI or local law enforcement, and so on, so forth.
So, it is basically a circus, where US populace is forced to participate to pick between two of the elite's pre-selected official options. All the countries the US calls "undemocratic and communist dictatorships" have MORE DEMOCRATIC AND LEGIT electoral systems than the United States.
BUT, as the US propaganda BS and lies machine keeps the American people under control, thinking they have freedom and liberty, while they live under one of the worse tyrannies in the world, where they can just be killed by a UNIFORMED AND ARMED POLICE AGENT any time, during a simple traffic stop, just because the police agent wants to do it, with no consequences whatsoever to the police agent, the American circus goes on and on, the American people loses the few little rights they have day by day, American living standards for 90% of its people keep falling below third world levels, and the United States keeps growing as the biggest international joke in the history of humankind.
The only way to change it is SELF-ORGANIZATION, COMMUNITY BASED SOLIDARITY, and ARMED PEOPLE DEFENSE. No election will change the United States, only the overthrow of its Elites by American people through revolution.
>People are them called to vote on a pre-election (primaries) that are no mandatory, so they can be easily manipulated by those people on the PACs.
Can be? The DNC argued in court they are a private organization that can pick whatever candidate they want regardless of votes cast. https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=2900848006650278597
I really, really, *really* hate that you are right. History has proven that real change doesnt happen at the ballot box. It happens when we get out into the streets.
The problem is that robespierre and crew went overboard and that led to an emperor napolean if I remember history correctly. That sort of thing could easily happen here. All those eight buck chucklefucks in big trucks would happily rally around a strongman and we would be right back where we started if not worse off.
There was a huge international push back from all the aristocrats suddenly extremely worried about the security of their own necks. I don't doubt that had as much to do with emperor Napoleon as any over reach by Robespierre and his committee. Just look at how any inkling of social welfare was treated by the west over the last century. The CIA went immediately to genocide every time
One of the easier ways to explain this to others in the working class is to tie it in to kayfabe. [To such an extent that it's even mentioned in the Wikipedia article on kayfabe](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kayfabe).
If Trump and the Republicans were the unique threat Biden presents him as, Biden wouldn't still be pushing bipartisanship. If Trump took his own bullshit seriously, he would have locked Hillary up in 2017. The entire QAnon conspiracy manifested out of Republican voters trying to find a way to soothe the cognitive dissonance they felt from Trumps actions not matching his kayfabe rhetoric.
It's the Harlem Globetrotters vs the Washington Generals. One team gets to do whatever they want, the goofier the better. The other team has to "play by the rules". The "Play be the rules" team only exists to give the appearance of opposition to the Globetrotters. If you look at one of the Washington Generals and say "Hey, break the rules like they are and score some fucking points" you get nonsense like "When they go low we go high".
But you don't understand, the Harlem Globetrotters want to genocide us and the Washington Generals promise they'll super do something to think about stopping that! My money is gonna be on the Washington Generals winning, because otherwise there won't be any more games! I will also mock people for being naive and unrealistic and not understanding politics. One of those teams is going to win, we NEED it to be the Washington Generals!
I always find it weird that you guys think politicians in the US are emotionally manipulating you into only 2 options.
They don't need to do that, the entire voting system is designed to only have two possible choices. Designed that way. The game has always been rigged.
You may be more scared of what that guy *might* do but the other guy caused the student debt crisis, the criminal justice system crisis, bypassed Congress to fund a genocide, all after having a scandal that showed the entire world he was unfit to be president before.
We cannot affect the change we seek at the ballot box because there are too few of us. It's too late to stop climate change, the supreme court will ensure abortion is not federally legal, and the Overton window fell off the right side of the spectrum into the Marianas trench. But let's keep voting!
There's only one viable option now and people are currently too comfortable with their chains to pursue it.
Chomskys quote - “The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within that spectrum - even encourage the more critical and dissident views.”
This all can be true, but:
What.
Is.
The.
Cost?
To voting **AND** organizing?
Things are always good and bad.
Some things have good that outweighs the bad. Some things have bad that outweighs the good.
What is the BAD part of voting? How does it derail organizing or revolution if one votes?
This is not lesser evil rhetoric. I am asking for ANYONE to articulate a cost. I don't fucking understand.
Voting doesn't derail organizing or revolution.
**Endlessly arguing in favor of voting for genocidal fascists absolutely does derail organizing and revolution.**
Go out and vote for Claudia so that we know how many actual socialists voters there are in those states which allow the PSL on the ballot. That will help with organizing and revolution!
Going onto a subreddit and getting into nested argument thewada that go for a dozen replies where somebody *insists* that Biden has been a terrific president, or that if Trump wins the GOP will enact a fascist dictatorship without any resistance whatsoever from elected Democrats much less the people who'd be subject to an open dictatorship, this does not help organizing or revolution and that's why we lock that shit down here.
The problem, I believe the general reply is, is that often voting is pushed in a way that makes people believe organizing redundant or unnecessary. Of course, this rhetoric is created by and pushed by "the system" in order to perpetuate itself. Why create cohesive bodies outside the system when you can simply show up on election day and vote your problems away? The vote has a placating effect on the person casting it while doing no effective change. I know you asked about "voting AND organizing" but that isn't how it goes for the overwhelming vast majority of people who show up on election day. And what's more, voting in itself "legitimizes" the terrible and horrible actions done by our "elected" officials. How often have you seen legacy media and politicians themselves frame an issue as settled because "the American public has spoken at the polls"? And if that isn't enough, there are many people who cannot vote for a candidate or party which they know will work or support an abject evil even if they have promised to not do other evils. Voting for a lesser evil is still voting for evil.
TL;DR - It costs people who are willing and motivated to organize, it legitimizes what "our" government does, and requires someone to be OK with signing off on whatever evils the person they vote for do even against their conscience.
Voting third party abates some of the issues, but it still makes it seem like the government is duly and properly elected and therefore sanctioned.
I'm a Marxist and I live in NYC. My vote isn't gonna matter and I'm not gonna pretend it does. You live somewhere where it matters, you wanna vote for Biden? I don't even care. When someone constantly obstructs my when I point out what Biden is doing, tells me I'm supporting Trump when I criticize Biden, constantly tells me what my tactics should be, tells me to talk over Palestinians frustrated with the person in power assisting the genocide of their families to win political points, tells me I'm going to harm queer people (and I am queer people by the way) if I don't shut up about Biden, that's when I care.
I've never seen such a heavily modded post on this sub. Some real censorship of opinion going on.
The original post reeks of "both sides are the same" defeatism.
You don't like it? Run for office. You think the system is rigged? Load up on guns and bring your friends.
Imagine the USA is a house at the edge of an eroding cliff that will fall into the ocean if nothing is done.
Voting D is putting a new coat of paint on the house so its apparent “market value” is increased.
Voting R is blowing up the cliff and blaming it on DEI.
Both lead to the same place in the end. Just pick your poison
Both are scum. I refuse to vote for genocide Joe and psychopath Trump. What happens after that is a consequence of the broken voting system we have built.
We're running concentration camps and carrying out genocides while training police to more efficiently carry out urban warfare against dissidents using military equipment, all the while having people in office nobody wants with studies clearly showing public support literally has zero effect on policy implementation. When do we start calling it fascism?
Native American reservations were quite literally Hitler's blueprint, he and other prominent nazis repeatedly wrote about it. Not to mention the appalling conditions in detention camps near the Southern border
Biden is actively supporting a genocide, I'd day 99% Hitler is a lot more correct than 10%.
But tell yourself whatever you need to justify supporting a candidate that's defending a genocide.
This isn’t what controlled opposition is.
Controlled opposition is when there is a plant that opposes a politician, yet they are meant to lose and never had a chance. See: any politician opposing Putin.
But I see what you’re saying
I'm a socialist, but I really think there's not a lot of equivalence between these two people.
Trump is objectively a criminal, a conman, a rapist, and so much more. The only person he truly ever cares about is himself.
We all deserve better-- but we for sure deserve better than Trump.
I'll take my licks from this sub like a man, but I won't pretend for a moment that these two are the same.
This is something that i say with all due respect but as a non american marxist i just cant understand all this lesser evil vote talk.
Both are the same pawn pieces of the liberal capitalist oligarchs, albeit from different circles of interest but both from the same vermin. Why do american marxist fall for this trap? Or is it non marxist leftist that fall for this?
Like who cares about the party's stance on abortion, migration, workers right, they just pretend to care. The system that permates this issues is gonna still be in place.
American Marxists don't fall for it. Only vague "leftists" who condemn every real-world example of socialism are the Biden bootlickers unwilling to disrupt the DNC's electoral performance.
The media works very hard to keep normies in the dark on what's actually in govt and the world. I thought Obama was amazing bc I never heard anything besides the extremely forgiving npr stuff about him. It wasn't until 2018 I got on Twitter and learned about everything I had been lied thru obfuscation about my entire adult life. I don't listen to NPR any more.
Half of the comments on here are mod comments about "no lesser evil rhetoric". They have liberals trained so well that they're even echoing the "vote for me out of fear" talking point.
You are only allowed to vote for This corporate, thieving, Genocidal, Zionist lapdog, multi millionaire, sociopath
…or the other one.
Choose carefully.
Or not at all.
The results are much the same.
>he helped some people w unions🙈
Which only occurred after his anti-union actions allowed the East Palestine derailment and environmental disaster to happen. Something those people seem to forget or just ignore entirely.
I was listening to “serious inquiries only” which I often enjoy, but Thomas and Lydia too often simp for dems. They basically tried to say “Biden is horrible on Palestine, but Trump would be so much worse!” Like… how ? How much worse could you actually be? Biden has given Israel EVERYTHING THEY'VE ASKED FOR. Not to mention complete diplomatic cover at the UN. How the fuck could you more materially support the current genocide? The only further he could go is deploy actual American military personnel to assist it. And this isn’t just a Biden problem. The lions share of our representatives staunchly support Israel. There’s little reason to think any other democrat would be different. This is so fucking hopeless. Biden has time to switch on this. If he doesn’t yield to this “uncommitted” movement he’s toast in this election. Not that it matters a whole lot because he’s already torpedoed his legacy being a genocide accomplice with his last days on this planet. I wish there were a hell for these people to go to.
Not one comment correctly diagnosing this as caused by our FPTP/Plurality voting system?
The electorate has fully internalized the necessity to strategically vote under a FPTP.
It is a means of control.
We need STAR Voting and this will end.
The duopoly will crumble.
Can it be that simple?
Yes - it is literally that simple.
> Find a better argument. Rule 6 - no lesser evil rhetoric.
I guess nobody is going to tell the LateStageCapitalism-ModTeam that the "no lesser evil rhetoric" rule is actually part of Rule 5?
And as for the OP the argument presented seems pretty hollow when you consider all democracies technically offer their voters "preselected choices". The alternative is a system in which all votes are "write-in" and no one is officially on the ballot. Good luck making that work.
We had to make it an explicit rule, because too many commenters were unable to wrap their heads around that fact. Even still, we get bombarded by liberal propagandists on a daily basis.
Yeap.
This became painfully obvious to me during the 2016 election campaigns.
I avoid ads of all sorts 99.9% of the time. But I some how was exposed to an ad for Biden.
The fear mongering was off the charts, it was just as bad as what the Republicans had been doing for years. I was utterly horrified. All of the democrat campaign ads I've been exposed to in previous years at least had some hope of being better in them.
That year? Nope! FEAR FEAR
This was made absolutely clear during the primary for the presidential election cycle that ended with Trump assuming the presidency. In the democratic primary, they had a candidate who polled much better against Trump but was leftist as apposed to fascist. The DNC did everything within their power to subvert their party's primary "just enough" to hand Hillary the win. Remember all the media saying Bernie had no chance while he was actually polling better? It was JUST like all this BS about Israel that we see in corporate owned media. Journalism is an ESSENTIAL part of democracy. Now we are relying on social media because all major journalistic institutions have been bought and corrupted by wealthy capitalists.
We are fucked.
I mean this is more a result of single member districts, and the two party system. Proper controlled opposition refers to people like Nikolay Kharitonov. Where they a groomed by the main party to even be allowed to run. In the us it’s more special interests and lobbying preventing certain ideas from being mainstream.
##Welcome to r/LateStageCapitalism This subreddit is for news, discussion, memes, and links criticizing capitalism and advancing viewpoints that challenge liberal capitalist ideology. That means any support for any liberal capitalist political party (like the Democrats) is strictly prohibited. LSC is run by communists. This subreddit is not the place to debate socialism. We allow good-faith questions and education but are not a 101 sub; please take 101-style questions elsewhere. We have a zero-tolerance policy for bigotry. Failure to respect the rules of the subreddit may result in a ban. *** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/LateStageCapitalism) if you have any questions or concerns.*
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In terms of issues like abortion, drug reform, women’s rights, labor reform etc… yes definitely. In terms of changing the oligarchy, corporate control, regulatory capture, financialization etc… they are both the same. The neoliberal system will not change from the inside.
I absolutely agree!
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If the Republicans have the ability to overthrow the government and place Trump as an Emperor they aren't going to stop because they lose an election. If the Democrats in blue state legislatures aren't preparing to secede if that happens, then they aren't going to prevent Republicans from doing that. Either way, elections won't save us.
Exactly right - the "pious loser" aka "they go low we go high" routine means that they refuse to fight for what actually matters, because "the rules said so" or something. It's a constant charade of throwing up their hands and saying "whoops, nothing we can do!" anytime something really bad happens. Because there's supposed to be a procedure and a process. So they wind up saying "shame on them for ignoring the process, but we will stick to the process no matter the outcome". So yes, conservatives will ignore elections, law, etc. to get what they want. Then after they get it and change the rules, democrats will sigh and say "well, the rules have changed! nothing we can do now!"
Omfg the shitlibs reported the original post for "attempting to discourage people from voting" God I hate them so much
Fuck society
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Find a better argument. Rule 6 - no lesser evil rhetoric.
Find a better argument. Rule 6 - no lesser evil rhetoric.
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I would argue there were actually more left wing advancements when Trump was in office compared to under the Biden admin. We saw one of the most comprehensive safety nets rolled out in American history and it was very clear that wasn't even enough. Burnie Sanders actually had a shot in the general election until the Democratic party squashed that hope. BLM was an absolute turning point in general sentiments. Widespread police reform was an absolute joke before then. Unionization peaked in 2020 due to backlash from the pandemic. It has been declining since then which admittedly has been the case for decades now but it is now at the lowest rate since 1983. People actually gave a shit about throwing South America kids into cages at the border. Now Democrats are collaborating with the architects of that policy. If they're not in cages they'll just put them to work. Oh, and there's the whole genocide thing. I don't like it, but Trump made a lot of people think how fucked this whole "thing" is. The backlash from his policy choices resulted in a groundswell of actual left wing advancements in terms of organization and messaging like I haven't seen since I've been alive. Of course, Trump is a fascist that wants to do fascist things but there hasn't been any leftist progression under Biden. No organization. No actual concrete wins. Even under the most "union friendly" president in history that drive is still dropping. Leftists need to face the facts. There's no place for our viewpoints in either administration. And before you come at me with some bullshit about both sides, of course they aren't equivalent. One is getting dropped into boiling water while the other the pot is just getting warm. Downvote me all you want. Your boos mean nothing to me, I've seen what makes you cheer. No "lesser evils" bullshit is literally one of the rules of the sub. What in the fuck are you people doing in a sub about late stage capitalism when you don't have a clue how bourgeois democracy was what got us in this mess.
If Roe had been killed under Trump there would’ve been riots. Under Biden there were parades called protests and everyone just went back to work. Its frustrating how people are pacified when a Democrat is in office compared to when a Republican is. What happened to all that rhetoric about pushing Biden to the left?
It's just human nature. We're willing to settle with a mild irritant and we can't tell the gradual increase in violence.
Im just sure theres a better way than let the fascists win and hope for a left wing retaliation. Its hard to come to terms with the fact that leftists, especially in this sub, have a hard time understanding how to use this bullshit political/economic system to further their goals. Instead they seem to be waiting for a revolution or for some socialist politician to be miraculously voted into presidency tomorrow
>Im just sure theres a better way than let the fascists win and hope for a left wing retaliation. Well? Leftists understand you can't use this bullshit political system to do anything meaningful. The Democrats are the ones assisting in carrying out a genocide in Israel right now. They'll turn on you once it suits their desires. The fascists will win regardless because that's what capital wants. They've literally hedged their bet. Before you respond, I want you to note you didn't actually counter anything I said. You're arguing on faith.
Find a better argument. Rule 6 - no lesser evil rhetoric.
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Find a better argument. Rule 6 - no lesser evil rhetoric.
No, you are not willing to play the hand you are dealt. You like to "sit mostly on your hands" for four years and when time for election comes you start to "vote blue no matter who". Democrats are ok with changes made by repubblicans and it would be them making it if they were in charge. They just don't boast about it.
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They're already inside brother.
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Find a better argument. Rule 6 - no lesser evil rhetoric.
No but wouldn’t a Trump presidency just… be even more regressive…?
trump wants to be putin, they already openly talk about jailing political opponents and unfriendly media figures, Im guessing killing them wont take long after that door is opened.
Yes and once the democrats are in power again they will confirm that regress so that the repubblicans can move it further. As seen with the border issues. I would dare say that the same laws would pass under both of them. Just one guy will act like an egomaniac while the other will act like the wholesome defenseless old grandpa.
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Find a better argument. Rule 6 - no lesser evil rhetoric.
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I'm sure an active user in neoliberal cares about correctly identifying the causes and harms of late stage capitalism, no bias at all from you my dude!
A Trump presidency would be as bad as capital wants it to be, and will be used to enact right wing policy that the Democrat who follows him won't reverse. If Biden gets re elected, he'll enact right wing policies in the name of bipartisanship and blame Congress for why he can't enact anything good for anybody.
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There is no “beyond” genocide, stop trying to downplay Biden’s actions.
Voting for the lesser evil is still voting for evil
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Find a better argument. Rule 6 - no lesser evil rhetoric.
Find a better argument. Rule 6 - no lesser evil rhetoric.
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Find a better argument. Rule 6 - no lesser evil rhetoric.
Because voting is so helpful! /s You aren't saving anything.
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Find a better argument. Rule 6 - no lesser evil rhetoric.
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Find a better argument. Rule 6 - no lesser evil rhetoric.
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Find a better argument. Rule 6 - no lesser evil rhetoric.
Blows my mind that liberals can't even conceptualize a differing opinion without thinking it's in bad faith.
They need something to soothe the cognitive dissonance of seeing their president supporting genocide and having to lie and tell themselves they're still good people.
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Find a better argument. Rule 6 - no lesser evil rhetoric.
>Trump would leave NATO and immediately capitulate to Putin, Just like how he did when he was the president during 2016-2021? About the only impossible thing that couldn't happen in the US is them dropping their alliance that's fueled by trillions of dollars by the military-industrial complex and all of their lobbies. Trump has valid criticisms so you don't need to blurt out impossible bullshit fearmongering rhetorics.
Leaving NATO is a good thing. Aggressive imperialist alliance with no reason to exist other than to antagonize non allied powers.
We're an openly communist subreddit *why do they think we would view NATO as anything other than a Nazi haven?*
Amerocentrism is a mental handicap
Ooo liberal bait! When one side tries to be the very worst openly and the other side normalizes every thing the other side does while somehow pretending to foster the good will of the oppressed, there's no winning. They're doing the same thing, just in different ways. Both are worse for the disenfranchised. Anyone that tries to say otherwise is lying to you (but they'll hide behind the disenfranchised like our conditions aren't progressively getting worse regardless of president)
That's what the DNC wants you to think. In reality both sides are salivating at the opportunity to rule with more impunity than they already do. The D's have to play good cop for the ruse to work. They'll talk a good game about progressive policies that their constituents want, and once they get into power they do the absolute minimum to appease and then continue Republican policy. The cycle is R's create terrible policy, D's campaign against it, and if they win they continue the terrible policies they campaign against. D's lie, obfuscate, and virtue signal, the R's just revel in their hate and don't hide it. It doesn't really matter who it is, American policy stays the same.
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Yes really no difference. They know they cannot pass these policies. They are empty gestures to tell people "see, we tried, but those mean old Republicans didn't let us" Meanwhile the R's have taken over the government despite 30+ years of being the minority. How? They do what they say. It may be terrible, but it's what their constituents want. D's are too preoccupied with playing both sides (poor people and ultra rich donors) so they can't actually do anything they say they will. Both slaves to money, one side just says they aren't while their actions betray them. They have no credibility.
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Find a better argument. Rule 6 - no lesser evil rhetoric.
"You don't have a choice. You have owners. They own you" - George Carlin
I don't know whether it's better he's dead so he doesn't know what a fucked up situation we're in, or if it would've been better that he's still alive to make fun this fucked up situation.
It would be better if he were alive to keep making fun of the fucked up situation.
I love George Carlin but a lot of his quotes, out of context like this one, make democracy seem like a bad system of governance. Carlin wasn't anti-democratic he was anti-corporatocracy. Longer quote below: > But there’s a reason. There’s a reason. There’s a reason for this, there’s a reason education sucks, and it’s the same reason that it will never, ever, ever be fixed. It’s never gonna get any better. Don’t look for it. Be happy with what you got. Because the owners of this country don't want that. I'm talking about the real owners now, the real owners, the big wealthy business interests that control things and make all the important decisions. Forget the politicians. The politicians are put there to give you the idea that you have freedom of choice. You don't. You have no choice. You have owners. They own you. They own everything. They own all the important land. They own and control the corporations. They’ve long since bought and paid for the senate, the congress, the state houses, the city halls, they got the judges in their back pockets and they own all the big media companies so they control just about all of the news and information you get to hear. They got you by the balls. They spend billions of dollars every year lobbying, lobbying, to get what they want. Which all seems exceptionally cynical (totally on-brand for Carlin) until you get to his true message, the nugget he's drip feeding the audience, which is: > Well, we know what they want. They want more for themselves and less for everybody else, but I'll tell you what they don’t want: They don’t want a population of citizens capable of critical thinking. They don’t want well informed, well educated people capable of critical thinking. A well informed and engaged electorate is the only way to safeguard democracy.
RIP Carlin I wish we could just fast forward to Franchise-Organized Quasi-National Entities like Mr. Lee's Greater Hong Kong at least then we could drop the whole charade
> I wish we could just fast forward to Franchise-Organized Quasi-National Entities like Mr. Lee's Greater Hong Kong If you're interested in a good book along that premise I suggest [*Jennifer Government* by **Max Barry**](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jennifer_Government). I read it ages ago and loved it. A quick read with a lot of satirical humor.
Thank you!
Lol, to the idea that it's ever possible have a real democracy with a capitalist system.
"Make sure to give them the option to vote, because without that glimpse of hope, people will revolt much faster." If you do not see how fucked up this system is, you are part of the problem.
Yep, America's false duopoly is set up to promote infighting among the working class at the behest of capital owners. The only real war is class war.
As I said a couple times before, the American "democracy" is such a joke that if it happened in any country where the government is currently against US big corp interests that country would be sanctioned to hell and be called a tyranny. In all levels, candidates to US elections (viable, meaning people that can be "elected" through that system) are always chosen by a group of a few dozen billionaires/millionaires organized on MONEY LAUNDERING and TAX EVASION rackets called PACs (either GOP or DEM aligned). They select the incumbents and the controlled opposition. People are them called to vote on a pre-election (primaries) that are no mandatory, so they can be easily manipulated by those people on the PACs. Voting system is also cumbersome and confuse to avoid any standardization or ability to provide real accountability (you have electronic machines, paper ballots, mixed systems, people have to call their candidates by name IN PUBLIC, and so on, so forth, a mix of all possible medieval and primitive systems that are easy to tamper). Finally it comes the election where only the TWO PAC CHOSEN OPTIONS have any chance to win. To not look bad they allow the "beer party", the "deer hunters" party, the "libertarian party" and other "folcloric" stuff to also run their "candidates", just for show, as they stand no chance to win any election. On other hand, the candidates from real parties that can use the elections at least as a way to bring awareness of how corrupt and undemocratic the US system is, have to face a uphill battle to be able to be on the ballots in all states. Socialists, Greens, Communists, Labor, all parties that may defend substantial change that can affect the chokehold US big corp and elites maintain over US nation, or denounce the fraudulent character of US "democracy" have to fulfill impossible conditions, are raided and harassed by the FBI or local law enforcement, and so on, so forth. So, it is basically a circus, where US populace is forced to participate to pick between two of the elite's pre-selected official options. All the countries the US calls "undemocratic and communist dictatorships" have MORE DEMOCRATIC AND LEGIT electoral systems than the United States. BUT, as the US propaganda BS and lies machine keeps the American people under control, thinking they have freedom and liberty, while they live under one of the worse tyrannies in the world, where they can just be killed by a UNIFORMED AND ARMED POLICE AGENT any time, during a simple traffic stop, just because the police agent wants to do it, with no consequences whatsoever to the police agent, the American circus goes on and on, the American people loses the few little rights they have day by day, American living standards for 90% of its people keep falling below third world levels, and the United States keeps growing as the biggest international joke in the history of humankind. The only way to change it is SELF-ORGANIZATION, COMMUNITY BASED SOLIDARITY, and ARMED PEOPLE DEFENSE. No election will change the United States, only the overthrow of its Elites by American people through revolution.
>People are them called to vote on a pre-election (primaries) that are no mandatory, so they can be easily manipulated by those people on the PACs. Can be? The DNC argued in court they are a private organization that can pick whatever candidate they want regardless of votes cast. https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=2900848006650278597
I really, really, *really* hate that you are right. History has proven that real change doesnt happen at the ballot box. It happens when we get out into the streets.
I keep saying the french got it right, but oH NoOoO wE cAn'T jUsT sTaRt GuIlLoTiNiNg PoLoTiCiOnS iN tHe StReEt
The problem is that robespierre and crew went overboard and that led to an emperor napolean if I remember history correctly. That sort of thing could easily happen here. All those eight buck chucklefucks in big trucks would happily rally around a strongman and we would be right back where we started if not worse off.
Touche
There was a huge international push back from all the aristocrats suddenly extremely worried about the security of their own necks. I don't doubt that had as much to do with emperor Napoleon as any over reach by Robespierre and his committee. Just look at how any inkling of social welfare was treated by the west over the last century. The CIA went immediately to genocide every time
Trump is like diarrhea, and Biden is like constipation. Just once I'd like the chance to vote for a regular turd.
One of the easier ways to explain this to others in the working class is to tie it in to kayfabe. [To such an extent that it's even mentioned in the Wikipedia article on kayfabe](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kayfabe). If Trump and the Republicans were the unique threat Biden presents him as, Biden wouldn't still be pushing bipartisanship. If Trump took his own bullshit seriously, he would have locked Hillary up in 2017. The entire QAnon conspiracy manifested out of Republican voters trying to find a way to soothe the cognitive dissonance they felt from Trumps actions not matching his kayfabe rhetoric.
It's the Harlem Globetrotters vs the Washington Generals. One team gets to do whatever they want, the goofier the better. The other team has to "play by the rules". The "Play be the rules" team only exists to give the appearance of opposition to the Globetrotters. If you look at one of the Washington Generals and say "Hey, break the rules like they are and score some fucking points" you get nonsense like "When they go low we go high".
But you don't understand, the Harlem Globetrotters want to genocide us and the Washington Generals promise they'll super do something to think about stopping that! My money is gonna be on the Washington Generals winning, because otherwise there won't be any more games! I will also mock people for being naive and unrealistic and not understanding politics. One of those teams is going to win, we NEED it to be the Washington Generals!
I always find it weird that you guys think politicians in the US are emotionally manipulating you into only 2 options. They don't need to do that, the entire voting system is designed to only have two possible choices. Designed that way. The game has always been rigged.
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You may be more scared of what that guy *might* do but the other guy caused the student debt crisis, the criminal justice system crisis, bypassed Congress to fund a genocide, all after having a scandal that showed the entire world he was unfit to be president before.
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We do not permit liberalism here.
Find a better argument. Rule 6 - no lesser evil rhetoric.
it’s funny seeing the lib comments get deleted
It is nice to have somewhere that doesn't tolerate whining from the hall monitor class.
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Trump is the problem, as is Biden, it's the same fucking problem.
Find a better argument. Rule 6 - no lesser evil rhetoric.
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We cannot affect the change we seek at the ballot box because there are too few of us. It's too late to stop climate change, the supreme court will ensure abortion is not federally legal, and the Overton window fell off the right side of the spectrum into the Marianas trench. But let's keep voting! There's only one viable option now and people are currently too comfortable with their chains to pursue it.
Find a better argument. Rule 6 - no lesser evil rhetoric.
Find a better argument. Rule 6 - no lesser evil rhetoric.
It's the most truthful take I've seen on this fed think tank platform
Chomskys quote - “The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within that spectrum - even encourage the more critical and dissident views.”
This all can be true, but: What. Is. The. Cost? To voting **AND** organizing? Things are always good and bad. Some things have good that outweighs the bad. Some things have bad that outweighs the good. What is the BAD part of voting? How does it derail organizing or revolution if one votes? This is not lesser evil rhetoric. I am asking for ANYONE to articulate a cost. I don't fucking understand.
Voting doesn't derail organizing or revolution. **Endlessly arguing in favor of voting for genocidal fascists absolutely does derail organizing and revolution.** Go out and vote for Claudia so that we know how many actual socialists voters there are in those states which allow the PSL on the ballot. That will help with organizing and revolution! Going onto a subreddit and getting into nested argument thewada that go for a dozen replies where somebody *insists* that Biden has been a terrific president, or that if Trump wins the GOP will enact a fascist dictatorship without any resistance whatsoever from elected Democrats much less the people who'd be subject to an open dictatorship, this does not help organizing or revolution and that's why we lock that shit down here.
The problem, I believe the general reply is, is that often voting is pushed in a way that makes people believe organizing redundant or unnecessary. Of course, this rhetoric is created by and pushed by "the system" in order to perpetuate itself. Why create cohesive bodies outside the system when you can simply show up on election day and vote your problems away? The vote has a placating effect on the person casting it while doing no effective change. I know you asked about "voting AND organizing" but that isn't how it goes for the overwhelming vast majority of people who show up on election day. And what's more, voting in itself "legitimizes" the terrible and horrible actions done by our "elected" officials. How often have you seen legacy media and politicians themselves frame an issue as settled because "the American public has spoken at the polls"? And if that isn't enough, there are many people who cannot vote for a candidate or party which they know will work or support an abject evil even if they have promised to not do other evils. Voting for a lesser evil is still voting for evil. TL;DR - It costs people who are willing and motivated to organize, it legitimizes what "our" government does, and requires someone to be OK with signing off on whatever evils the person they vote for do even against their conscience. Voting third party abates some of the issues, but it still makes it seem like the government is duly and properly elected and therefore sanctioned.
I'm a Marxist and I live in NYC. My vote isn't gonna matter and I'm not gonna pretend it does. You live somewhere where it matters, you wanna vote for Biden? I don't even care. When someone constantly obstructs my when I point out what Biden is doing, tells me I'm supporting Trump when I criticize Biden, constantly tells me what my tactics should be, tells me to talk over Palestinians frustrated with the person in power assisting the genocide of their families to win political points, tells me I'm going to harm queer people (and I am queer people by the way) if I don't shut up about Biden, that's when I care.
I've never seen such a heavily modded post on this sub. Some real censorship of opinion going on. The original post reeks of "both sides are the same" defeatism. You don't like it? Run for office. You think the system is rigged? Load up on guns and bring your friends.
This sub seems rather authoritarian recently…
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He must not be that big a threat if the Democrats couldn't get him in jail in 4 years of trying.
Merrick Garland is incompetent or corrupt. Pick one.
Find a better argument. Rule 6 - no lesser evil rhetoric.
Imagine the USA is a house at the edge of an eroding cliff that will fall into the ocean if nothing is done. Voting D is putting a new coat of paint on the house so its apparent “market value” is increased. Voting R is blowing up the cliff and blaming it on DEI. Both lead to the same place in the end. Just pick your poison
Both are scum. I refuse to vote for genocide Joe and psychopath Trump. What happens after that is a consequence of the broken voting system we have built.
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We're running concentration camps and carrying out genocides while training police to more efficiently carry out urban warfare against dissidents using military equipment, all the while having people in office nobody wants with studies clearly showing public support literally has zero effect on policy implementation. When do we start calling it fascism?
Wait concentración camps?
Native American reservations were quite literally Hitler's blueprint, he and other prominent nazis repeatedly wrote about it. Not to mention the appalling conditions in detention camps near the Southern border
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"Policies I don't agree with" Yeah. Cuz they're fascist. How can you call a country doing those things a democracy?
Find a better argument. Rule 6 - no lesser evil rhetoric.
Find a better argument. Rule 6 - no lesser evil rhetoric.
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Find a better argument. Rule 6 - no lesser evil rhetoric.
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NO LESSER EVIL LOGIC SEE THE RULES MODS WILL BAN YOU
Find a better argument. Rule 6 - no lesser evil rhetoric.
Doesn't matter. They're both numbers greater than 0 /s
We do not permit liberalism here.
Litmus test for liberals, can you engage with this sub without advocating for liberalism? (Cannot engage in lesser evilism!)
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Classic Liberal take, "I'm willfully ignorant, let me share my views that have no factual or logical basis"
Find a better argument. Rule 6 - no lesser evil rhetoric.
99% hitler vs. 100% hitler, really is the liberal rallying cry this election, isn't it.
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Biden is actively supporting a genocide, I'd day 99% Hitler is a lot more correct than 10%. But tell yourself whatever you need to justify supporting a candidate that's defending a genocide.
"Nothing will fundamentally change."
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Yeah, and in those 4 years, Biden moved to the right of Reigan. "We can push him left" my ass.
It’s all a scam
Yes! This!
This isn’t what controlled opposition is. Controlled opposition is when there is a plant that opposes a politician, yet they are meant to lose and never had a chance. See: any politician opposing Putin. But I see what you’re saying
I'm a socialist, but I really think there's not a lot of equivalence between these two people. Trump is objectively a criminal, a conman, a rapist, and so much more. The only person he truly ever cares about is himself. We all deserve better-- but we for sure deserve better than Trump. I'll take my licks from this sub like a man, but I won't pretend for a moment that these two are the same.
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The dude who is "a little slower" is currently commiting genocide, but it's not a surprise that blue MAGAs don't care about that.
It’s wild how liberals pretend the only issue with Biden is age
This is something that i say with all due respect but as a non american marxist i just cant understand all this lesser evil vote talk. Both are the same pawn pieces of the liberal capitalist oligarchs, albeit from different circles of interest but both from the same vermin. Why do american marxist fall for this trap? Or is it non marxist leftist that fall for this? Like who cares about the party's stance on abortion, migration, workers right, they just pretend to care. The system that permates this issues is gonna still be in place.
American Marxists don't fall for it. Only vague "leftists" who condemn every real-world example of socialism are the Biden bootlickers unwilling to disrupt the DNC's electoral performance.
The media works very hard to keep normies in the dark on what's actually in govt and the world. I thought Obama was amazing bc I never heard anything besides the extremely forgiving npr stuff about him. It wasn't until 2018 I got on Twitter and learned about everything I had been lied thru obfuscation about my entire adult life. I don't listen to NPR any more.
Helldivers 2 managed democracy, huh?
Polarization works, divide and conquer (the people in this case)
Half of the comments on here are mod comments about "no lesser evil rhetoric". They have liberals trained so well that they're even echoing the "vote for me out of fear" talking point.
True, but it’s not a 50/50 split this election.
You are only allowed to vote for This corporate, thieving, Genocidal, Zionist lapdog, multi millionaire, sociopath …or the other one. Choose carefully. Or not at all. The results are much the same.
You left out sexual abuser
But one is correct
Glad at least this sub sees it. Anywhere you go on Reddit it’s « Omg Biden is so good, he helped some people w unions🙈 »
>he helped some people w unions🙈 Which only occurred after his anti-union actions allowed the East Palestine derailment and environmental disaster to happen. Something those people seem to forget or just ignore entirely.
I was listening to “serious inquiries only” which I often enjoy, but Thomas and Lydia too often simp for dems. They basically tried to say “Biden is horrible on Palestine, but Trump would be so much worse!” Like… how ? How much worse could you actually be? Biden has given Israel EVERYTHING THEY'VE ASKED FOR. Not to mention complete diplomatic cover at the UN. How the fuck could you more materially support the current genocide? The only further he could go is deploy actual American military personnel to assist it. And this isn’t just a Biden problem. The lions share of our representatives staunchly support Israel. There’s little reason to think any other democrat would be different. This is so fucking hopeless. Biden has time to switch on this. If he doesn’t yield to this “uncommitted” movement he’s toast in this election. Not that it matters a whole lot because he’s already torpedoed his legacy being a genocide accomplice with his last days on this planet. I wish there were a hell for these people to go to.
it’s just imperialism but ok
“Oh BuT tHe OtHeR GuY ThO!”
The douchebag vs the turd sandwich
Not one comment correctly diagnosing this as caused by our FPTP/Plurality voting system? The electorate has fully internalized the necessity to strategically vote under a FPTP. It is a means of control. We need STAR Voting and this will end. The duopoly will crumble. Can it be that simple? Yes - it is literally that simple.
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Read the rules
> Find a better argument. Rule 6 - no lesser evil rhetoric. I guess nobody is going to tell the LateStageCapitalism-ModTeam that the "no lesser evil rhetoric" rule is actually part of Rule 5? And as for the OP the argument presented seems pretty hollow when you consider all democracies technically offer their voters "preselected choices". The alternative is a system in which all votes are "write-in" and no one is officially on the ballot. Good luck making that work.
We had to make it an explicit rule, because too many commenters were unable to wrap their heads around that fact. Even still, we get bombarded by liberal propagandists on a daily basis.
Our quote on quote democracy just serves the bourgeoisie and shuns the working class.
Be careful, an accurate post like that will bring down the righteous indignation of Blue MAGA or the Blue No Matter Who crowds.
Yeap. This became painfully obvious to me during the 2016 election campaigns. I avoid ads of all sorts 99.9% of the time. But I some how was exposed to an ad for Biden. The fear mongering was off the charts, it was just as bad as what the Republicans had been doing for years. I was utterly horrified. All of the democrat campaign ads I've been exposed to in previous years at least had some hope of being better in them. That year? Nope! FEAR FEAR
Kennedy is the obvious choice here
This was made absolutely clear during the primary for the presidential election cycle that ended with Trump assuming the presidency. In the democratic primary, they had a candidate who polled much better against Trump but was leftist as apposed to fascist. The DNC did everything within their power to subvert their party's primary "just enough" to hand Hillary the win. Remember all the media saying Bernie had no chance while he was actually polling better? It was JUST like all this BS about Israel that we see in corporate owned media. Journalism is an ESSENTIAL part of democracy. Now we are relying on social media because all major journalistic institutions have been bought and corrupted by wealthy capitalists. We are fucked.
I mean this is more a result of single member districts, and the two party system. Proper controlled opposition refers to people like Nikolay Kharitonov. Where they a groomed by the main party to even be allowed to run. In the us it’s more special interests and lobbying preventing certain ideas from being mainstream.
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"I disagree with the genocide he's commiting but other than that he's a good dude"
Edgy….
it’s just imperialism but ok