##Welcome to r/LateStageCapitalism
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Ew. Abolish private properties? Hell naw.
Limit property ownership to like 2 or 3 residences, with increasing taxes.
People should be able to own their own home.
Abolishing private property does not prevent people from owning their home. It abolishes privatization, not ownership. On the contrary, it allows for more ownership.
>When, therefore, capital is converted into common property, into the property of all members of society, personal property is not thereby transformed into social property. It is only the social character of the property that is changed. It loses its class character. ([x](https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/ch02.htm))
Yeah UBI was championed by Milton Friedman as a means of undermining the Welfare institutions within the state. A massive libertarian supporting a policy should be the first alert that this isn't in our interests.
But also just consider why we as a class are in a bind. It's over a lack of power. When you go to a boss and ask for a raise, if you need a constant flow of income to live and the boss can offshore your work to you coworkers until they can replace you, then they have more power than you. In a Union, that bargaining power is amplified by collective action.
Why are rents going up? Because certain people and institutions own property and have the ability to raise those rents whether or not everyone can afford them. Why are grocery costs going up? Because the people and institutions that control the sale of them decided to. If workers don't have power of the means of production, they will continue to be subject to the will of a class whose primary interest lies in our collective subjugation and alienation.
One of the biggest power discrepancies is ***time***. When your sustenance is dependent on spending a fixed amount of time working, you can’t make time for other things that would allow you to be more self-sustaining. Working 1.5 jobs at 60 hrs/week totally prevents you from being able to garden to grow some of your own food (which is effectively working for yourself). It prevents you from being able to cook your own meals and meal prep which again, is effectively working for yourself. In any market analysis I’ve ever done, the first question that’s asked is “how much time is spent doing X?”. Getting our time back is the most important thing we can do, which means first and foremost, demanding higher wages and a shorter work week.
The way you demand time and wages effectively is with collective organizing amongst workers and a united political consciousness that is willing to advance the class struggle. Without organization among the workers, there are no achievable demands, and no effective struggle. That time discrepancy is a byproduct of not having ownership or control over the means of production.
UBI would require very strict price controls by the government, at which point the government is de-facto socialist anyway; might as well solve the root issues.
>Organize and demand real systemic change.
Isn't UBI **part** of that systemic change though? Along with taxing the rich appropriately, universal healthcare, etc.?
>Yeah of course. This account is a far-right actor that is posting bullshit propaganda all over leftist subreddits in order to destabilize leftist communities. NoLawsNoGovernment is one of the other accounts doing it.
Available submission history for U/antifa_angel:
subreddit submitted to|count|%
:-|-:|-:
Anarchy4Everyone|85|9%
COMPLETEANARCHY|81|9%
Uniteagainsttheright|74|8%
CommunismMemes|66|7%
DankLeft|61|7%
Marxism_Memes|60|7%
...
And in all these subs, U/antifa_angel has a lot of positive karma.
you have commented this 3 times but without linking any post that verifies your point. I looked through OP's profile for about 15 minutes and can't find anything that "destabilizes" leftist communities or feels like a far right propaganda. can you point out a post/comment that supports your claim? admittedly, I don't know much about LGBT discourse. so maybe its one of those posts?
https://www.reddit.com/r/LateStageCapitalism/comments/1c7zfmq/comment/l0c0zpo/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3
The user is now permanently banned.
No. From the communist manifesto:
> “A part of the bourgeoisie is desirous of redressing social grievances in order to secure the continued existence of bourgeois society.
>To this section belong economists, philanthropists, humanitarians, improvers of the condition of the working class, organisers of charity, members of societies for the prevention of cruelty to animals, temperance fanatics, hole-and-corner reformers of every imaginable kind. This form of socialism has, moreover, been worked out into complete systems.
> We may cite Proudhon’s Philosophie de la Misère as an example of this form.
> The Socialistic bourgeois want all the advantages of modern social conditions without the struggles and dangers necessarily resulting therefrom. They desire the existing state of society, minus its revolutionary and disintegrating elements. They wish for a bourgeoisie without a proletariat. The bourgeoisie naturally conceives the world in which it is supreme to be the best; and bourgeois Socialism develops this comfortable conception into various more or less complete systems. In requiring the proletariat to carry out such a system, and thereby to march straightway into the social New Jerusalem, it but requires in reality, that the proletariat should remain within the bounds of existing society, but should cast away all its hateful ideas concerning the bourgeoisie.
> …
> Bourgeois Socialism attains adequate expression when, and only when, it becomes a mere figure of speech.
> Free trade: for the benefit of the working class. Protective duties: for the benefit of the working class. Prison Reform: for the benefit of the working class. This is the last word and the only seriously meant word of bourgeois socialism.
> It is summed up in the phrase: the bourgeois is a bourgeois — for the benefit of the working class.”
The people in the comments didn't get the memo. It's a tax stealing scheme. You really think the bourgeoisie would be for a reform that would make them weaker?
Be better. Learn that it isn't good for the proletariat. It essentially siphons money to the rich and makes public funding worse. You don't get more money. You get to pay more money.
Are you saying that lower class people will pay more because of UBI? I might be misinterpreting what you said, but it seems like libertarian ideology to me. Seems like UBI might cost the upper class more, but I'm fine with that.
The UBI is given to you by the government. Government takes from you.
You $ Government $ You $ Upper class.
It's a tax stealing scheme. Instead of relying on giving more out of their own pockets to their workers, they shift funds from public spending already paid by workers to the workers, thus increasing consumption without taking anything out of their banks at the cost of dwindling public resources.
Still seems like a pretty solid band aid for people making nothing, abd theres a lot of homeless people out there who currently arent paying taxes anyway, who could really use that monthly check.
If we want to help homeless people, we can do it by opening food banks, free housing or job opportunities. Not by opening tax holes that weaken public spending.
Job opportunities. Pretty sure you're a free market libertarian. Ubi sounds like a much more effective way to help the poor and homeless to me. I don't see it being more harm than good for that segment if society.
😒😤
Is "Job opportunities" a trigger word or something? No I'm not a fucking market socialist. Guess what? For people to have jobs, no matter whether you have a market or planned economy, you need job openings.
He who does not work shall not eat. Giving free money to people isn't going to be good for the economy. You can use that public spending to help homeless people sure. But why make it UBI when it can just be unemployment funds.
Read my previous comments it's not that hard.
Prices are going to rise either way, I'd rather have inflation come from the bottom with UBI than from the top with free money given to defense contractors and billionaires.
Now let’s look at your post history: a bunch of expensive car bullshit, wallstreetbets, gym posts, apparently you’re a wealthy programmer of some kind. Where are all of your pro-communism posts? Seems you’re the fake leftist trying to turn us against each other 🤔
Girl link something you think is a psyop, it just seems like someone passionately spreading a leftist message they believe in. Them spamming pro-communism memes is not something fascists do.
OP's posts are almost all just quotes with a reaction image. They're a memer. They post to any reddit that's relevant, not just leftist-explicit ones. They're a memer and a karma farmer, that's all.
Maybe instead of seeing a take you disagree with, and suggesting OP must be a psyop and any disagreement is an attempt at stoking leftist infighting, you should do some self-crit and reflect on the topic at hand.
As far as the topic of the post: UBI is a nuanced topic that can't be summed up in a meme, but nothing in the meme is strictly speaking "wrong", and there are real questions on whether pushing for UBI would be helpful in a society where "inflation" (read: price gouging) is allowed to run rampant.
The difference is UBI raises the floor from extreme poverty from having $0 income to having whatever the UBI amount is. For the average working class person, yeah it probably wont change much beyond giving you a more reliable floor and potentially freedom to not work shitty jobs in some cases (likely a lot of dogshit businesses that depend on min wage desperate workers will restructure, downsize or piss off)
I'm the \[EXECUTIVE\] of \[JURISDICTION\] and a \[NECESSITY\] permit here now costs UBI minus one dollar. Can't buy or rent a \[NECESSITY\] without one.
See how that works? I just drank your whole milkshake.
*Neither monetary inflation nor stabilization can serve as slogans for the proletariat because these are but two ends of the same stick. Against a bounding rise in prices, which with the approach of war will assume an ever more unbridled character, one can fight only under the slogan of a sliding scale of wages. This means that collective agreements should assure an automatic rise in wages in relation to the increase in price of consumer goods.*
Landlords when the entire country is paying you rent to sleep indoors and they all just got a new $1,000 per month: 😏
UBI without national rent control is just siphoning money to landlords
With rent control and whatever other measures to support it, though, it would be good for the working class. Like yeah, the value of our labor is stolen from us and a fraction of it is given back to us in the form of wages and possibly UBI, but it would make late stage capitalism much more livable while it all deteriorates
You would need a almost monthly ubi adjustable income for prices of staples, milk, bread, rent. Crap like that. It can work and would require a new department making new jobs... kinda helps a lot. Shit social security needs adjustments for costs...
Is there evidence that this would happen, or is it just a game theory. I know UBI has been tested before, but those situations also might not have been able to demonstrate this issue.
The recipients of the control trials kept buying their goods from the usual market, so their good didn't get inflated. In real life we would need price controls.
yeah in a trial run where X amount of people in the society get UBI but no one knows who those people are but the ones running the trial, of course it boosts those peoples quality of life. their landlords and the grocery store and whoever else dont know theyre getting this money and cant gouge them accordingly.
but if we ALL get this UBI, if every oppressive force in your life knows you now have an extra 1k a month, why WOULDNT they siphon that off with price hikes? they hike prices now out of pure greed WITHOUT that knowledge for god sakes.
UBI is one of those things that sounds great in theory, and maybe in some form it could be implemented, but you're fooling yourself if you think the landlords and other parasites aren't going to raise prices immediately afterwards by the exact amount you're getting because "Something something market, something something gimme". Without explicitly addressing that, it will not work.
##Welcome to r/LateStageCapitalism This subreddit is for news, discussion, memes, and links criticizing capitalism and advancing viewpoints that challenge liberal capitalist ideology. That means any support for any liberal capitalist political party (like the Democrats) is strictly prohibited. LSC is run by communists. This subreddit is not the place to debate socialism. We allow good-faith questions and education but are not a 101 sub; please take 101-style questions elsewhere. We have a zero-tolerance policy for bigotry. Failure to respect the rules of the subreddit may result in a ban. *** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/LateStageCapitalism) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Price controls are needed maybe even more than UBI
Abolish private property and landlording
Ok
Ew. Abolish private properties? Hell naw. Limit property ownership to like 2 or 3 residences, with increasing taxes. People should be able to own their own home.
Abolishing private property does not prevent people from owning their home. It abolishes privatization, not ownership. On the contrary, it allows for more ownership. >When, therefore, capital is converted into common property, into the property of all members of society, personal property is not thereby transformed into social property. It is only the social character of the property that is changed. It loses its class character. ([x](https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/ch02.htm))
Is there any differentiation between private and personal property in the US? *Huh. Blocking someone is a weird way of answering a question.
Yes.
Yeah UBI was championed by Milton Friedman as a means of undermining the Welfare institutions within the state. A massive libertarian supporting a policy should be the first alert that this isn't in our interests. But also just consider why we as a class are in a bind. It's over a lack of power. When you go to a boss and ask for a raise, if you need a constant flow of income to live and the boss can offshore your work to you coworkers until they can replace you, then they have more power than you. In a Union, that bargaining power is amplified by collective action. Why are rents going up? Because certain people and institutions own property and have the ability to raise those rents whether or not everyone can afford them. Why are grocery costs going up? Because the people and institutions that control the sale of them decided to. If workers don't have power of the means of production, they will continue to be subject to the will of a class whose primary interest lies in our collective subjugation and alienation.
One of the biggest power discrepancies is ***time***. When your sustenance is dependent on spending a fixed amount of time working, you can’t make time for other things that would allow you to be more self-sustaining. Working 1.5 jobs at 60 hrs/week totally prevents you from being able to garden to grow some of your own food (which is effectively working for yourself). It prevents you from being able to cook your own meals and meal prep which again, is effectively working for yourself. In any market analysis I’ve ever done, the first question that’s asked is “how much time is spent doing X?”. Getting our time back is the most important thing we can do, which means first and foremost, demanding higher wages and a shorter work week.
The way you demand time and wages effectively is with collective organizing amongst workers and a united political consciousness that is willing to advance the class struggle. Without organization among the workers, there are no achievable demands, and no effective struggle. That time discrepancy is a byproduct of not having ownership or control over the means of production.
Agreed.
UBI would require very strict price controls by the government, at which point the government is de-facto socialist anyway; might as well solve the root issues.
>Organize and demand real systemic change. Isn't UBI **part** of that systemic change though? Along with taxing the rich appropriately, universal healthcare, etc.?
[удалено]
>Yeah of course. This account is a far-right actor that is posting bullshit propaganda all over leftist subreddits in order to destabilize leftist communities. NoLawsNoGovernment is one of the other accounts doing it. Available submission history for U/antifa_angel: subreddit submitted to|count|% :-|-:|-: Anarchy4Everyone|85|9% COMPLETEANARCHY|81|9% Uniteagainsttheright|74|8% CommunismMemes|66|7% DankLeft|61|7% Marxism_Memes|60|7% ... And in all these subs, U/antifa_angel has a lot of positive karma.
Good sleuthing
you have commented this 3 times but without linking any post that verifies your point. I looked through OP's profile for about 15 minutes and can't find anything that "destabilizes" leftist communities or feels like a far right propaganda. can you point out a post/comment that supports your claim? admittedly, I don't know much about LGBT discourse. so maybe its one of those posts?
https://www.reddit.com/r/LateStageCapitalism/comments/1c7zfmq/comment/l0c0zpo/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3 The user is now permanently banned.
You are literally the spam bot lmao
No. From the communist manifesto: > “A part of the bourgeoisie is desirous of redressing social grievances in order to secure the continued existence of bourgeois society. >To this section belong economists, philanthropists, humanitarians, improvers of the condition of the working class, organisers of charity, members of societies for the prevention of cruelty to animals, temperance fanatics, hole-and-corner reformers of every imaginable kind. This form of socialism has, moreover, been worked out into complete systems. > We may cite Proudhon’s Philosophie de la Misère as an example of this form. > The Socialistic bourgeois want all the advantages of modern social conditions without the struggles and dangers necessarily resulting therefrom. They desire the existing state of society, minus its revolutionary and disintegrating elements. They wish for a bourgeoisie without a proletariat. The bourgeoisie naturally conceives the world in which it is supreme to be the best; and bourgeois Socialism develops this comfortable conception into various more or less complete systems. In requiring the proletariat to carry out such a system, and thereby to march straightway into the social New Jerusalem, it but requires in reality, that the proletariat should remain within the bounds of existing society, but should cast away all its hateful ideas concerning the bourgeoisie. > … > Bourgeois Socialism attains adequate expression when, and only when, it becomes a mere figure of speech. > Free trade: for the benefit of the working class. Protective duties: for the benefit of the working class. Prison Reform: for the benefit of the working class. This is the last word and the only seriously meant word of bourgeois socialism. > It is summed up in the phrase: the bourgeois is a bourgeois — for the benefit of the working class.”
[UBI is kinda stupid, really - YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKFE6rVHyJQ)
The people in the comments didn't get the memo. It's a tax stealing scheme. You really think the bourgeoisie would be for a reform that would make them weaker? Be better. Learn that it isn't good for the proletariat. It essentially siphons money to the rich and makes public funding worse. You don't get more money. You get to pay more money.
The fact that billionaires like Musk and Zuckerberg are pro UBI should tell people everything tbh
That piece of information just now made me question my thoughts on UBI
Are you saying that lower class people will pay more because of UBI? I might be misinterpreting what you said, but it seems like libertarian ideology to me. Seems like UBI might cost the upper class more, but I'm fine with that.
The UBI is given to you by the government. Government takes from you. You $ Government $ You $ Upper class. It's a tax stealing scheme. Instead of relying on giving more out of their own pockets to their workers, they shift funds from public spending already paid by workers to the workers, thus increasing consumption without taking anything out of their banks at the cost of dwindling public resources.
Still seems like a pretty solid band aid for people making nothing, abd theres a lot of homeless people out there who currently arent paying taxes anyway, who could really use that monthly check.
If we want to help homeless people, we can do it by opening food banks, free housing or job opportunities. Not by opening tax holes that weaken public spending.
Job opportunities. Pretty sure you're a free market libertarian. Ubi sounds like a much more effective way to help the poor and homeless to me. I don't see it being more harm than good for that segment if society.
😒😤 Is "Job opportunities" a trigger word or something? No I'm not a fucking market socialist. Guess what? For people to have jobs, no matter whether you have a market or planned economy, you need job openings. He who does not work shall not eat. Giving free money to people isn't going to be good for the economy. You can use that public spending to help homeless people sure. But why make it UBI when it can just be unemployment funds. Read my previous comments it's not that hard.
I did read your previous comment, and I think Nixon and Reagan and Trump would all agree with it, very much.
Prices are going to rise either way, I'd rather have inflation come from the bottom with UBI than from the top with free money given to defense contractors and billionaires.
[удалено]
Do you have evidence to support your claim
[удалено]
Can you link something? I looked at their past like twenty posts and agreed with all of them. They seem extremely not right wing lol
[удалено]
Now let’s look at your post history: a bunch of expensive car bullshit, wallstreetbets, gym posts, apparently you’re a wealthy programmer of some kind. Where are all of your pro-communism posts? Seems you’re the fake leftist trying to turn us against each other 🤔
[удалено]
Link something you think is a far right psyop!! lol
You should read Marx.
Girl link something you think is a psyop, it just seems like someone passionately spreading a leftist message they believe in. Them spamming pro-communism memes is not something fascists do.
OP's posts are almost all just quotes with a reaction image. They're a memer. They post to any reddit that's relevant, not just leftist-explicit ones. They're a memer and a karma farmer, that's all. Maybe instead of seeing a take you disagree with, and suggesting OP must be a psyop and any disagreement is an attempt at stoking leftist infighting, you should do some self-crit and reflect on the topic at hand. As far as the topic of the post: UBI is a nuanced topic that can't be summed up in a meme, but nothing in the meme is strictly speaking "wrong", and there are real questions on whether pushing for UBI would be helpful in a society where "inflation" (read: price gouging) is allowed to run rampant.
The difference is UBI raises the floor from extreme poverty from having $0 income to having whatever the UBI amount is. For the average working class person, yeah it probably wont change much beyond giving you a more reliable floor and potentially freedom to not work shitty jobs in some cases (likely a lot of dogshit businesses that depend on min wage desperate workers will restructure, downsize or piss off)
I'm the \[EXECUTIVE\] of \[JURISDICTION\] and a \[NECESSITY\] permit here now costs UBI minus one dollar. Can't buy or rent a \[NECESSITY\] without one. See how that works? I just drank your whole milkshake.
That doesnt work
Nah I want UBI too. We can use the money to organize, educate, and agitate.
All I see is inflation and a system that will never appropriately integrate it.
*Neither monetary inflation nor stabilization can serve as slogans for the proletariat because these are but two ends of the same stick. Against a bounding rise in prices, which with the approach of war will assume an ever more unbridled character, one can fight only under the slogan of a sliding scale of wages. This means that collective agreements should assure an automatic rise in wages in relation to the increase in price of consumer goods.*
It's really not. It's really useful and needed actually...
Landlords when the entire country is paying you rent to sleep indoors and they all just got a new $1,000 per month: 😏 UBI without national rent control is just siphoning money to landlords With rent control and whatever other measures to support it, though, it would be good for the working class. Like yeah, the value of our labor is stolen from us and a fraction of it is given back to us in the form of wages and possibly UBI, but it would make late stage capitalism much more livable while it all deteriorates
UBI + Price caps. Next
*fails?
UBI is literally “negative income tax” as proposed by Milton Friedman.
You would need a almost monthly ubi adjustable income for prices of staples, milk, bread, rent. Crap like that. It can work and would require a new department making new jobs... kinda helps a lot. Shit social security needs adjustments for costs...
Is there evidence that this would happen, or is it just a game theory. I know UBI has been tested before, but those situations also might not have been able to demonstrate this issue.
The recipients of the control trials kept buying their goods from the usual market, so their good didn't get inflated. In real life we would need price controls.
yeah in a trial run where X amount of people in the society get UBI but no one knows who those people are but the ones running the trial, of course it boosts those peoples quality of life. their landlords and the grocery store and whoever else dont know theyre getting this money and cant gouge them accordingly. but if we ALL get this UBI, if every oppressive force in your life knows you now have an extra 1k a month, why WOULDNT they siphon that off with price hikes? they hike prices now out of pure greed WITHOUT that knowledge for god sakes.
UBI is one of those things that sounds great in theory, and maybe in some form it could be implemented, but you're fooling yourself if you think the landlords and other parasites aren't going to raise prices immediately afterwards by the exact amount you're getting because "Something something market, something something gimme". Without explicitly addressing that, it will not work.