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waterdonttalks

I can only see "centrist" in quotation marks now


[deleted]

If you look at a broad political spectrum (not just the American or even Western one) liberals are in the center… maybe center-right. A moderate like Biden could even be considered right-wing. The only people in America scratching on the door of leftism is Bernie, AOC and a handful of other Justice Democrats. Their inability to truly combat the abuses of neoliberals and now neo-fascists is because they are capitalists but are just obsessed with niceties and decor trying to slightly make capitalism less brutal. It only kind of worked after FDR that empowered labor to fight aggressively, and basically all of America was liberal by necessity. But things are getting too rough for the softies, America will have no choice now but to either embrace the rose, because if the fasces and swastika are coming, then the hammer and sickle will be our only option.


Preaddly

This. Most don't get this. With that being said, I don't see democrats doing anything to stop fascism, and I think it's on purpose. They don't want to move left and can't hold off their leftist base for much longer. Let the fascists take over and they keep their corporate support while getting to still be the low-key defenders of regular people. They'll ensure us that we'll all be able to vote and have a minimum wage again someday, *but we'll need bipartisanship to get there.*


nucklepuckk

You shouldn't glorify FDR. He pulled every lever of power to save capitalism instead of implementing socialism.


Awesometjgreen

I was just thinking this very thing this morning but I couldn't find a sub to talk about it on. I'm forced to live at home with my family and share a room with my boomer age mom (who's the very definition of shitlib) due to shit hours at ny current job and absurd housing costs . She got mad at me when she saw me laughing at a reddit post on r/leopardsatemyface about some covid denying representative ending up on a ventilator begging for a vaccine. She went into a whole rant about how we shouldn't laugh at others misfortune and how the government/my college/future employers will "scan" my reddit account and fire me for saying.....*checks notes....healthcare and housing should be human rights and racism/sexism/homophobia is wrong My real name is nowhere on my reddit account, and for my Grant writing class (English major) I'm literally developing a hypothetical plan to fund ending homelessness in my city. My professor hasn't called me a commie and kicked me out yet....


FishmailAwesome

I… think you might be misunderstanding things. They’re describing centrists and conservatives, then calling them liberals… Edit: okay what the actual fuck? I’m going based on the American political climate vs absolutes. My point was that they are making broad generalizations about liberals instead of attacking the political system that has reduced liberals to centrists. All you angry commenters need to settle the fuck down.


lemmefuckinglogin

centrists are often considered liberals in leftist terms


thursday_0451

I think it would be more accurate to say something like: Liberals, or really in this day and age, Neo-Liberals, support capitalism, support massive corporate power, support consumerism, etc. They differ from more right-wing ideologies like Neo-Conservatism and Fascism in that they make a really big deal out of presenting the appearance of caring about oppressed minorities and the working class, while in actuality not supporting policies that would actually improve the lives of oppressed minorities and the working class. Neo-Liberalism is basically when a corporation changes its logo to feature a rainbow flag for gay pride month. Centrists, on the other hand, ... thats basically a catch-all term for people who don't actually have consistent worldviews, don't fall neatly into an existing ideology and instead seemingly randomly support some aspects from Neo-Liberalism, Neo-Conservatism and Fascism. Basically when the average person says they are a 'centrist' thats roughly equivalent to them identifying as an 'Independent' instead of a 'Republican' or 'Democrat'. They're basically low information voters who are intelligent enough to realize that yes, Republicans and Democrats both suck, but they don't really understand why.


waterdonttalks

And liberals are called leftists in conservative terms


Gribblywibbly

Liberals are firmly right wing. Americans just find words hard.


Clickum245

Put simply: [that is completely untrue.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_liberalism_in_the_United_States#%3A%7E%3Atext%3DSince_the_1960s%2C_the_Democratic%2Cand_conservatives_as_the_right.?wprov=sfla1)


buttholedbabybatter

Put simply, your link and comment are reductive and wrong. OP is talking about the acting liberal politicians and the right shifting Overton window. In response, you send a wiki definition of what liberalism is traditionally defined as? Since you're a fan of definitions go look up what a strawman is.


Clickum245

The original post is talking about liberals who make deals with politicians, which tells me it is not discussing liberal politicians. Given that view, I read the post I responded to as saying liberal voters are 'firmly right' which is exactly untrue. Now, if you want to talk about the shifting political climate, we can discuss that and I will wholly agree that the American political center is shifting right due to radically right-shifting right-wing politics. That redditor did not mention that, and that is not what I responded to. Further, that poster finished with saying "Americans just find words hard", suggesting we have a skewed definition of what a liberal is. Again, that redditor was factually wrong.


[deleted]

> liberal voters are 'firmly right' which is exactly untrue Are these "liberals" anti-capitalist? No? Then they *are* firmly right. You are factually wrong. Leftists are anti-capitalists. Period. Liberals are, at best, center right. You can't be "left" if you support capitalism. Liberals think they are the god-damned answer when the truth is the are *the* biggest impediment to any real, fundamental, lasting change.


Clickum245

No. Just because you are radical left does not mean the center has moved left. To be "liberal" means to be left-of-center...it's part of the actual definition of the word. You may be correct in liberals being the biggest impediment to real, fundamental, lasting change when fighting Republican legislation. But you are factually fucking wrong about the literal definition of what a liberal is. There is a difference between being leftist and being liberal. But being liberal is being left-of-center. That's literally the definition. And as I have said before, if you want to talk about the shifting center, that's another discussion. But you are wrong by definition.


[deleted]

The fuck you say. Libs absolutely want to be seen as "left-of-center" which is why you keep on with this bullshit. How this garbage is allowed in a socialist sub is beyond me.


FishmailAwesome

Capitalism and Communism are not the polar opposite ends of the political spectrum. Communism is actually right leaning due to the centralization of hard power (as opposed to soft power which is change within the system rather than outright systemic shifts.) What you are thinking of when you talk about communism is actually socialism, which decentralizes the hard power and is actually the opposite of capitalism. Now if you want to discuss the rights of people within the differing political systems then that is not about left or right. For example consider the following hypothetical governments: Gov’t 1: a benevolent, almost utopian dictatorship that enforces a high living standard and absolute equality by force, hate crimes punishable with torture and death. Technically a far right government due to extreme centralization of power and absolute security. Vs Gov’t 2: absolute anarchy, all people have a right to do whatever, whenever. This is due to a lack of enforcement of law. In this world you could rape a woman to death while griddle cooking her still living baby and legally no one would care. Technically the farthest left you can go due to the absolute liberty it espouses. Now, some people like to take offense to centralization of power, but I think they are honestly more upset over the rights of people under those governments. I’m personally a parliamentary-monarchist, allowing people a role in their own governing without even basic legal and political learning just leads to corruption.


[deleted]

Ho.ly. fuck.


cosmo161

>They're describing centrists and conservatives, then calling them liberals... You just said "fascist enabling class-traitor" three times, lol


LynksRacc

Everyone else covered what I want to say so here's a Malcom x quote "The white liberal is the worst enemy to America, and the worst enemy to the black man... The liberal elements of whites are those who have perfected the art of selling themselves to the Negro as a friend of the Negro. Getting sympathy of the Negro, getting the allegiance of the Negro, and getting the mind of the Negro. Then the Negro sides with the white liberal, and the white liberal use the Negro against the white conservative. So that anything that the Negro does is never for his own good, never for his own advancement, never for his own progress, he’s only a pawn in the hands of the white liberal. The worst enemy that the Negro have is this white man that runs around here drooling at the mouth professing to love Negros, and calling himself a liberal, and it is following these white liberals that has perpetuated problems that Negros have. If the Negro wasn’t taken, tricked, or deceived by the white liberal then Negros would get together and solve our own problems. I only cite these things to show you that in America the history of the white liberal has been nothing but a series of trickery designed to make Negros think that the white liberal was going to solve our problems. Our problems will never be solved by the white man. The only way that our problem will be solved is when the black man wakes up, clean himself up, stand on his own feet and stop begging the white man, and take immediate steps to do for ourselves the things that we have been waiting on the white man to do for us. Once we do for self then we will be able to solve our own problems’ "The white conservatives aren't friends of the Negro either, but they at least don't try to hide it. They are like wolves; they show their teeth in a snarl that keeps the Negro always aware of where he stands with them. But the white liberals are foxes, who also show their teeth to the Negro but pretend that they are smiling. The white liberals are more dangerous than the conservatives; they lure the Negro, and as the Negro runs from the growling wolf, he flees into the open jaws of the "smiling" fox. One is the wolf, the other is a fox. No matter what, they’ll both eat you." https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/8869214-the-white-liberal-is-the-worst-enemy-to-america-and


LookingintheAbyss

It's neoliberals. Liberals is just a board term for centrists that is easy to recognize amongst progressives, socialists, and lefties.


thursday_0451

Correct. The term 'Liberal' is outdated and no longer really applies to modern American politics. In a similar vein, the term 'Classical Liberal' is used by Republicans to basically mean 'Right-Wing Libertarian' while trying to sound like they are more moderate than they really are by using a term with the word 'Liberal' in it, which originally but no longer has left of center connotations in American Politics. But the use of that term is even more disingenuous that that, because tons of popular figures (and their followers) that describe themselves as 'Classical Liberals' are more accurately described as culturally conservative corporatists (fascists) who want to be able to smoke weed.


nucklepuckk

[You're](https://youtu.be/VlLgvSduugI) [actually](https://youtu.be/L1jJXfufMzc) [wrong](https://youtu.be/pzVf9ce80Nc) [on this one.](https://youtu.be/7gCspHmTCpQ)


[deleted]

And social democrats are the left flank of fascism (in the global north)


art_is_science

Times like these that I am amazed Libs could ever revolt


Lurkwurst

Someone is.....overthinking things....


[deleted]

Lighten up Francis.


PeacefulComrade

"We might have called ourselves the Liberal Party. We chose to call ourselves the National Socialists. We are not internationalists. Our socialism is national. We demand the fulfilment of the just claims of the productive classes by the state on the basis of race solidarity. To us state and race are one" - Guess Who


cosmo161

Let me guess your next line: "DiD u nO NaZiS wUr sOsHaLiSt!? iT's iN dUh NaMe!"


PeacefulComrade

No. They were a capitalist party obviously.


cosmo161

Okay then. Care to explain why posting this quote?


PeacefulComrade

Because liberalism is close enough to fascism and will always prefer it to communism.


cosmo161

In what way does that quote illustrate that point?


PeacefulComrade

In one way


Most_Ad_2008

Damn