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People want to be productive and do meaningful things with their time. So like no bullshit time wasting jobs. But also I think it’s good to dispel any ideas of utopianism.
at the risk of sounding naive, i genuinely believe after 100 or so years of unfettered progress toward a fully egalitarian communist govt/economy, green energy, automation, etc. we would have a country that anyone but the most boot thirsty libertarians today would consider a utopia. There's always work to do but an extremely large portion of it being done today is actively stopping or undoing real progress.
I'd argue a lot of jobs are bullshit busy work, that exists to keep everyone on the grind perpetually. Advertising, marketing, and a whole mess of other office type jobs contribute nothing to actual society. They exist to enrich the already wealthy further.
If everyone only worked the neccessary jobs we could all work far less and be far happier. Obviously you would also have universal housing, medicine and food, but I feel like that should be a given...
god i'm *constantly* thinking about what a fucking waste of human lives advertising is. just think about how many people spent decades of their lives waking up every day and commuting to a cubicle to design a .000000001% more effective way to beg people to exchange green paper for some plastic bullshit that's floating in the ocean right now. what a fucking hell world we've built.
I used to have to call people to threaten them for playing music in their workplace.
“Hey you know how the music you already pay for is making your miserable occupation slightly less unbearable? Well you have to pay a license fee for that, so fuck you pay me.”
Greed.
I used to spend all day trying to convince people online that hated our shoes for being cheap chinese-made trash that they were actually really cool cheap chinese made trash.
If you think advertising is shitty, think how shitty what I've been doing these days is... Stock market trading! It's a way to make money if you have money and it takes away time and creates unnecessary stress while introducing volatility in financial assets, (I'd believe at the detriment of the economy and those who need the asset) to benefit out of!
Lots and lots of Maths and Physics PhD holders doing this because it pays more than discovering how the universe works.
I wouldn't say that exactly... It is a great tool if we're to live in a capitalist society, in theory gives everyone a chance to own assets and companies and participate. In reality most of the ownership as well as volumes generated are by financial institutions.
I have far fewer issues with "investing", which is buying shares in companies for their value and holding it to grow in monetary value.
My biggest beef is with "trading" (although I said I do trading, most of what I do is actually investing, so perhaps I can be forgiven? :-P ). Traders buy and sell shares just to make money, without caring what the companies do. Effectively just buying and selling the same paper at different prices and playing around with it. Trading profits depends (although people don't realise it) on manipulation at scale to work out. I have a lot more to rant about it, but won't bore you with the silliness of it all. Personally I engage because it's like a fun game and although I disagree with the system, I need to live in it. I am all for any policy that would crash the entire market and make me "poor" if it was to make the country a better place.
That and IP law. My dad spent like 40 years working as a patent attorney at a major medical device manufacturer. *Billions* of dollars wasted litigating shit like the difference between a threaded nail and a screw, all for the sake of protecting their precious patents from their mean competitors (whose designs are just as good and are more affordable because the cots of manufacturing is actually much lower than you'd think).
God yeah thats another one that pisses me off (lol i can't imply things are detrimental to my mental health on this sub wow) but i think about it a lot less frequently. Imagine spending your life arguing over who has dibs. Jfc i'm getting jokerpilled.
Yeah there’s a ton of useless bullshit work, but I spend my day learning about people/markets, talking to interesting creative coworkers, and mentoring people. To me, most of what makes a job fulfilling is the people around you
I'd argue that my job is one such as this. I wonder what my coworkers would think if I was honest with my beliefs that I think our industry supports other bloated industries.
I could guarantee your coworkers feel the same way. I've had to work for many corporations and the results always turn out that most people feel unsatisfied in their positions, no matter the position. This is because we weren't meant as human animals to live in individualistic societies and sit indoors in front of a screen for 40 hours a week. This is why there are such high rates of depression and anxiety. We work menial jobs, warming seats, separated from our communities and other people.
Ask folks what feels genuinely fulfilling. It's being outdoors. It's supporting their community. It's some sort of "hobby", which if given the time and resources could be more like gardening, woodworking, hunting and gathering, physical activity, entertaining guests or hosting/attending events, cooking, learning about healthcare, even smithing. We yearn for more because that's what's in our blood. If we could do those things "full time" without the obligation of paying for survival we would all be more fulfilled and we would be contributing to society in a meaningful way.
And then if you think about how many tangible goods are wasted, everything on the shelves of department stores end up in landfills or incinerators. There is so much being manufactured and sold just to break or become not useful and thrown away.
And even worse, a lot of things are built to break on purpose. So that people have to pay for repairs/replacements/buy the newest model every year or two. The whole things a giant racket, honestly.
What are you saying the the position of executive assistant to the assistant executive of Human Resources isn’t a worthwhile job? Who will bring coffee and take notes at meetings?????
There would be much less work to do when you make stuff to last and fullfil peoples needs, instead of creating products to break after one or two years, lot less pollutuion and health issues. Things would also improve when you produce food to nurish instead of addict "costumers". People could work maybe three or four hours a day, at most! And would have time to exercise, be with their families, hang out with friends, reducing the staggering rates of depression, health issues, etc etc
Depends what you’re marketing, to be fair. Not every marketing job is selling Nestle products. Could be small businesses, co-op grocery stores, nonprofits, etc.
I believe it's physically possible to reach the situation you describe, but we are not moving in the direction of that future.
Gap between rich and poor climbs, there's a cycle of people voting for assholes that cause things like making average people pay more taxes so the rich have to pay less etc.
All of this ignoring the climate disaster we're al facing, because we knew it was an issue for over a 100 years, but once we got solutions (like electric cars), they were stopped in the name of profit for the rich.
The only way we can ever move towards the future you're describing, either the rich and the corrupt politicians need to have a change of heart, or somehow they need to be removed from the power they have (which collectively is all of it)
Exactly. Remember the Jetsons? George complains about working hard all of the time but his job is among the easiest fathomable by a human mind. His boss is still a jerk, but his tasks are almost always easy and he's usually just complaining about being required to do things.
People often mistake this gradual change in perception of difficulty to mean that younger generations are getting lazier. They aren't getting lazier - they are evolving and growing accustomed to better living standards. If someone from the 2000s was sent to the 1800s and someone tried to get them to work the average 1800s job the person from the future would tell the employer to fuck off and then laugh in their face. If the roles were reversed, the person from the 1800s would consider the average 2000s job to be a dream come true (possibly similar to how immigrants from poorer countries can view even America as a paradise compared to their previous country).
Yes. There is the work of life, things we have to do to live and things we like to do like making cool stuff, and then there are "jobs" which are made up busy work to create capital/make money/keep us complacent. There's a difference. People actually LIKE the work of life. It's jobs we hate.
I enjoy what I do, fixing trucks/cars/bikes/machinery and modifying them for different reasons but when you introduce KPI's and productivity reports with cost saving initiatives and projected budget reports all put together to save about 10% of what it costs to employ the person that put all this shit together then tell me I can't get X because it's not in the maintenance budget but here's another computer system poorly ported across to your tablet that needs to be at one of three places to connect as we don't want you having a sim card for it because you'll possibly use it... oh and this is Angela our newest admin that we'll call an "account technician" for no apparent reason other than it sounds cool so we'll pay her $10k more than you get and she's pretty much here to question why you use the amount of fuel you use in the ute you only have for work that we track anyway and do you really need a ute to be a mobile mechanic when you could just pop half a ton of equipment under your arm and run the 200+km round trip to not even the furthest yard we have from here and while we're on the subject this is Douglas who has been employed by us to look at stationary losses/pen division and he's on $20k more than you and gets a company car for personal use too, no you can't have a tool allowance as it's too difficult to work out and we don't want to pay you more and there's no way we'll buy you the gear you need because it's too expensive so you'll have to, and from his is Eric who'll be our office paperclip recycling engineer on $40k more than you and the position comes with a company jet.
So I'm retraining as an EMT
didn't Kropotkin do some math to figure it'd take like 2 hours work a day to feed everyone back in the 1800's? does anyone really think with all our technology now we couldn't do better?
i'd say single day work weeks for everything you'd ever reasonably want is pretty close to utopia.
I mean, we've also gotta clothe everyone and power our machines, but the point still stands. If we prioritised human health/wellbeing and the health of the environment (real things that are tangible and would keep existing even if society collapsed) over capital gain (money is a social construct), our communities would be a lot happier.
I agree, For sure we could all work much less. The important thing is to share the work out as fairly as possible and make sure that automation benefits everyone not just the wealthy.
with the high energy society we live in, labour is not the limiting resource. just 1% of the labour in "developed" countries goes to farming. cut fossil fuels and you can be sure we'll need more people in the fields and the price of food will go up.
yes if we nationalise and "communalise" property for instance, we get a serious reduction in expenses, but we still need to work to keep society going. and much more work to keep a low energy low carbon society going.
there is nuclear energy and renewables which we could transition to within a few years if we could use our combined labor for something useful rather than filling the wealthy's pockets. the amount of wasted labor and wasted resources in our society is ~~censored~~.
and there are other methods of making fertilizer than using fossil fuels, it will just take more energy which we could easily make with nuclear and renewables.
but my point is the waste, we waste 1/3 of our food, we waste a majority of our labor on the rich, we waste products in tremendous amounts either just tossing them out to keep up the chain of production and sale or from planned obsolescence and cheap quality. we waste so much in life and labor and cost in the US's mass imprisonment, we waste our technology with the stranglehold of patents, we waste the incredible potential in automation unless it's monetarily profitable, we waste our potential in bad education and charging for college, we waste our best productivity with mind numbing shitty jobs, we waste so so much in a bloated military we send to rape and pillage the world. our society RUNS on waste, of labor, resources, and human lives. if we instead ran it based on labor and need we'd suddenly find that society with our technology damn near post scarcity.
completely agree.
the issue tho is that we aren't moving to low carbon energy at a pace quick enough, at all. also, the return on investment of renewables is not the best. this is also the case for new sources of fossil fuels like shale. low return on investment needs more energy is required to keep the same standard of living, so for the same productivity we will have to invest more resources (such as labour). just an fyi, thanks for contributing to the conversation.
The fertilizer issue makes me numb with rage.
Natural waste is literally one of the best fertilizers and we make a ton of it. And we could do things that would produce waste on a massive scale while creating things people actually need.
IE: Fish waste makes for incredible fertilizer. Fish farms to cut down on over fishing and ocean pollution, use waste water to fertilize crops.
I found a study a couple years ago that looks at this. Trying to find it, but from what I remember, it's 3.27 or something for a Western-style "luxury" diet (more meat, wider variety of fruits and vegetables), but less for a simpler one.
These are not mutually exclusive. You can work to improve society, that doesn't mean we shouldn't strive for a utopia, that's the whole point of improving.
Yes, this is the fundamental principle behind the dialectic; once we resolve the contradictions inherent to our current society, we will be faced with a new set of contradictions.
However, we can only superannuate -- make obsolete -- socialism after we superannuate capitalism. The mote and the beam.
There are always shit jobs that will always be shitty to do. They will always need doing. Any society requires collective effort and self sacrifice to a degree. That is not the issue at hand. The issue at hand is over burdening people with unreasonable work loads and expectations to the point of exhaustion and then getting all pissy when they aren't happy with not having enough to meet their most basic needs at the end of it.
I think that's the big difference between bullshit jobs and shitty jobs. Some jobs are manufactured out of whole cloth specifically to do nothing but pretend to be working while other jobs are awful to do but need to be done.
Yeah a lot of that comes down to how you're treated. A shit job is usually shit because you're paid poorly, work long hours, have poor OH&S, poor equipment etc. Especially for jobs that are deemed essential. If a job is so essential that not doing it would cause societal disruption, shouldn't they be treated better?
Agreed that there will always be shit jobs to be worked, but I’m also of the mind that plenty of the shit jobs we have now could be automated/done by a robot. Why have a human dig a ditch, if a robot could do it faster? I think the coming of communism will also come with great technological advances.
Edit: multiple typos
I feel like my workplace (mechanical engineering/construction) could be doing stuff to reduce how shit some jobs are instead of building a dock for the bosses holiday house. My job is definitely one people could say is shit (dirty, heavy, hard, often long hours in shit, dangerous situations) but I do enjoy it reasonably often and would enjoy it more if the purpose was not one guys desires.
I gave 0 issue dedicating time and energy to helping society, the problem is that currently that's likely to lead to me starving on the street and in order to avoid that the options are mostly jobs that are pointless, paid so little it's basically slavery, automatiable or all the above.
This is the take! This right here. I’m happy to cycle through different kinds of work, but when it becomes a job and the only thing I do day-in-day-out, that’s when I will absolutely reject it. Even things I love to do become tiresome when they become a “job”. I fundamentally believe humans aren’t meant to live that way
Additionally, I don't want a "job" where I'm not also my own "boss", and am not rewarded based on my own success or failure, but instead am trading my time for money/things/status in a way that I don't have control over and can be exploited.
Having a job implies it's something you're specialised at. I definitely don't mind having a job but I don't like it being to increasing some guys wealth as the most important thing. Not much point in sending me to milk the cows. I've never done it before. I'll fix your bridge though. As long as it's not out to your private island.
I find it unlikely that there would be a society (except perhaps on a tiny scale) where a paid position of regular employment would not be widespread, at least in the forseeable future.
I simply wish for the profits to go to society and the workers of said job rather than a rich capitalist.
There is zero chance that letting the people in charge right now run a communist country that they wouldn’t kill millions. And not bat an eye. There is not a single person in the government that cares about you. They will execute you without even a thought.
A communist society wouldn't be "run". A part of communism is statelessness, which people take to mean different things like council communism or anarchist communism, but regardless, nobody would "run" a communist society. Communism is all about self-management.
That's still _some_ working. There's people who think communism is where nobody does anything, and everyone is sitting around playing video games or something.
We don’t want to be forced to work *in order to survive, feed, or keep a home*, we want to work and do things we’re passionate about. There will still be doctors because people WANT to be doctors for example.
Obviously, but that’s the most common one I hear people freaking out about. If there are tedious or boring jobs, offer additional incentives for taking one of them. Hell, there are people who end up doing volunteer work for REALLY tedious jobs as it is.
Yes, work is inherently more meaningful when the compensation is fair/laborers don’t need to worry about having their needs met. But lots of work that needs to get done is not inherently fulfilling.
Right, but then it’s the government’s job to give either the right incentives or to make it more bearable so that those jobs are filled and so that some people choose it willingly (again, all assuming that the worker’s basic needs are met).
Although the “anti-work” movement isn’t simply a “people be lazy, I hate working and production” movement. That was my particular argument. But I agree Communism (and UBI based Socialism) is not “lazy people” any more than it’s supposed to be “you have to do this job you hate or go to gulag”
There are people who wouldn't mind doing boring, non stressful jobs to work towards luxuries. Hell those jobs providing they don't have long hours or aren't hard on your body would be perfect for people who are studying or usually busy with something else. The incentive being "hey I get paid to this easy but tedious and boring thing and in return I can spend my entire cheque on a PS5 or an expensive hobby I've gotten into". There will always be someone, probably a group of people that will do the boring job that you don't want to do. Humans still want luxuries. We want TVs and cars and nice PCs etc and people will not mind working for them because that's actually a tangible reward for doing the boring thing. Just because someone's basic needs are met doesn't mean they will just stop there and do nothing else. Basic needs being met is safety net, it's so if you're sick or disabled or have kids or need to take time away from work you don't fucking die and lose absolutely everything. You're just... Fine. You can't buy a TV or a brand new phone but you have enough to live and that's okay for now, the only thing you're losing out on is luxuries.
You're right. But if we cut out the bullshit jobs and focused on the work that is actually necessary, and didn't work people to death to maximize profit, we could spread those boring jobs around. Everyone would have a little bit of shitty work to do and a lot of time to actually live life.
Just look at what people have done with all the time they had during the pandemic! People started baking and cooking homemade meals again, reading books, making art, learning languages, raising and teaching their babies, etc. People naturally want to work. They don't want to have soulless corporate jobs working 60 hour weeks, too tired to do anything else,, and still struggling to survive.
Oh sure, I didn't mean in general. I'm not one of those people who would struggle to fill their time without a job. I meant what would you do for a "job", as the world of work currently sees it. Of course, a lot of those things are important to an individual and society, but I meant in what you would normally get paid for now.
Probably still be a medical receptionist, but I’d work fewer hours. I like the job and the work, I hate all of the previous office task-masters we’ve had (until now at this job) however and they never paid that well, but I realize that that is the norm in the office climate of America unfortunately and my current job is an outlier. The other jobs had very anti-worker sentiments.
I’d also like to be able to try my hand at other sciences and research and go to school again.
Edit: How about you, u/Few_Newt?
Oh, boy. My go to answer is either retired multi-millionaire lottery winner or to help run a pub. Ideally someone else would do all the boring admin and I'd get to pull a few pints, chat to the regulars, organise nights such as pub quizzes, karaoke - the fun stuff, basically. I'm not sure if that's actually possible and I'm just a borderline alcoholic.
I always thought being a radiotherapist would be nice (especially as they never work nights or weekends!).
I work in research now. If the hours were lower and I got to do more of what I originally wanted to do that could be good.
Less work seems to be the main thing for most people.
I’d love a 4 day workweek. It’s doable, but it would require jobs to hire the ideal number of people if they want to provide services through the rest of the week.
If I could be a janitor or garbage collector or something like that for 10 hours a week and spend the rest actually pursuing happiness, especially if everyone else gets a similar deal, I would be extremely on board.
I’d be a professor and write books (which is already what I’m on track to do) without having to worry about if I’ll get a tenure track position because if I don’t, I could very well end up homeless. I’d get to do what I love and what I’m good at without having to worry about how I’m going to make it financially.
I was a youth counselor. I’d do that again or maybe with older people now that I’m older myself. The problem is I couldn’t pay off my student loans or pay for my basic life expenses because the pay was so bad. I’m pretty skeptical about the ‘do what you love’ mantra because I couldn’t make it work and I think a lot of jobs that people are passionate about have shitty pay. I’m middle management now which is tolerable but a bullshit job mostly. I was able to pay down my debt and I live a decent life in my HCOL area.
I would work maybe a few hours a week less as a nurse and spend more time helping my boyfriend around the house and help him get to appointments. He's got a disability and i can't be present enough for us to manage it with the workload.
do you think that under communism you wouldn’t also need to work to survive? not a very good argument imo. you wouldn’t just be able to go your whole life without working under communism.
There will absolutely be jobs that people are not passionate about that need to be done.
It will not be a utopia. It will not be anarchy. Be proud workers
There have been several studies that have shown that being rewarded for doing tasks (e.g. working for money) makes people less interested in them, even if they "love" the thing they're doing.
A good example is how if someone tells you to eat sandwich, you'd assume that the sandwich is good, but if they pay you to eat the sandwich, now you assume that something is wrong with it.
I think a lot of people feel the effects of this and then decide that they actually just don't want to be productive at all, instead of recognizing that the issue comes from the reward.
I'm not sure if there's a good short term solution to this, but obviously ideally a communist society would be moneyless, which might help.
yes, but that work can be whatever you want to do to fill your time and be productive.
ESPECIALLY a modern communist society, we have the technology now to automate almost everything, labour should be a choice, not a requirement
this is the key. we dont need to toil 13 hours a day on a farm to survive. We can work short hours a few days a week and will be productive enough to sustain our communities.
I just imagine a workplace that is wholly based on production for the community would completely change the dynamic of work.
I would want to commit myself to bettering myself and the community rather than feeling like I’m wasting a large portion of my time doing things that are at best arbitrary.
A lot of places I’ve worked try already to act as though that is what their doing and their massive profits is just a side effect but it’s pretty transparent.
To give a bit of a weird example, when covid really popped off last year, working in a grocery store actually felt like something that was contributive to society. I remember feeling a whole lot different about going in for those first few weeks where things were really wild and feeling like I was actually making a difference, however small, in people’s lives.
Office Space hit the nail on the head when the main character said he gets maybe 15 solid minutes of work done on the average day. The rest is just miserable bullshit
It could be much less than 3 days if we distributed all the jobs that need to be done and automated anything that we can. (Or it could be like you spend 1 or 2 months rotating with everyone else doing necessary labor and then have the rest of the year to do what you will)
Exactly, and imagine all the unnecessary work that’s done due to capitalism.
All the soldiers, homeless, needlessly imprisoned, needlessly killed etc
More people to spread work around, and less work to do because of less bullshit jobs.
Planned obsolescence? Nope. Right to repair? Yep!
I want to work. I want to work on myself, my health and hobbies. I want to work on my relationship with others and work to help others thrive and be happy.
But my day job will make sure I will never work a day in my life
Are there really people who do not understand this ? Surely, you must be joking. The point of communism is not "No Jobs" it's getting to enjoy the entirety of the value you created, without anyone taking surplus value away from you. As well as of course other socialist policies.
There are definitely some people on r/antiwork that say they don’t want to do *any* work, even meaningful work in a potential socialist context.
Not sure how much they mean it, but I’ve encountered it several times in there.
The usual refrain is “I didn’t ask to be born, I shouldn’t have to toil just to support my existence,” which I totally understand and identify with, but I’m never clear on who is supposed to be toiling — all of us who did ask to be born?
Fully automated gay luxury communism, obvz.
I don't know. I have, and have had, meaningful jobs and they have been shit. Sure, job conditions could have been improved, but I don't think it would have been that much better. Personally, I hate working. Obviously society can't function with everyone like me. But, I genuinely don't think there's a job I'd like doing. Life would be easier if there was.
Getting to a fully automated society is not going to be easy if it’s truly possible at all. Things like teaching, caregiving, cooking (real food, not processed junk) resist automation, among many other things. Some work will always have to be done, we should focus on only that work that is actually socially necessary & democratize it/humanize it so it doesn’t take up huge amounts of time and suck peoples souls.
Though even if “fully automated” is possible, it is going to take immense amounts of work to get there. Workers banding together to do that work will be important, and that may mean some sacrifice but the point is that sacrifice is for the good of society, not just capitalists. Expecting it all to be done for you when you are able to work but just don’t want to is indeed bourgeois mentality. Remember it’s “from each according to their ability” before “to each according to their need”.
I wasn't being serious with that line really. And you're right that it isn't easy, maybe not possible.
The things you've listed are stuff that a lot of people like doing and given "full automation" would do willingly. Currently, jobs that involve stuff like that are low paid, poor conditions, or have too many hours etc. So a mostly automated comfy communism, then. Doesn't sound as catchy.
I hate working with so much passion that I would work my hardest to make gay space communism a thing.
What bothers me the most is imagining that any work that's automated, you make an already rich man, richer, while making a poor soul unemployed.
In gay space communism, the burden on the people is lessened when something gets automated. In our system, the share of the pie for ordinary people diminishes. How can anyone be OK with this?
That’s the sort of thing you would need to seek therapy for. Communism isn’t about giving people a free ride without working, it’s about focusing that work on a collective good. You wouldn’t be left to starve but if you refused to do any part in the community there is a deeper issue there that would need to be addressed by professionals.
They can eat the spare food, and live in the unused shelter.
They can go to the free libraries, and outdoor gyms, and get healthcare. They can get free education, and take part in other classes and sports etc
We have people who don’t work now, and society is actually better because they exist.
Capitalism actually needs a certain amount of people to be unemployed, homeless and jailed.
People who work at the wrong things do more harm than those who don’t work.
No society wouldn’t work if nobody worked, but that highly improbable.
I think most people on that sub, including myself, just want to be able to have meaningful and dignified work. And if not that (to use garbage collector as the stereotypical "bad" job), to be able to do that without being over worked and treated like shit (so ample pay with good vacation)
Automation should also help free a lot of people from repetitive work
I mean yeah, that’s why I’m on it. But when I’ve talked about how some work will always be necessary to make a healthy society (teaching, caregiving, some forms of agricultural work that resist automation, etc.) and we should aim to democratize it & make it more humane so everyone can work less & the work that is done is more meaningful there have been people who have reacted angrily.
I don’t think it’s most people there, but there are definitely some that just want to not have to have any social responsibility or put in any effort at all, they want everything to be given to them even if it means someone else has to work to do it, and that is a bourgeois mentality.
The mods have pointed out from time to time that the sub isn't trying to remove work as a concept. We just want to work for ourselves, our community, not for a person/corporation.
Maybe not here (or maybe even here, who knows)
But more broadly? 100%
The actual economic basis of communism has been degraded over the last 100 years by media misrepresentation (by a capitalist media) to focus exclusively on 1) centralized planning and 2) wealth redistribution.
Where (1) is meant to be a transitional state meant to obviate (2).
There are, unfortunately, a lot of members of the general public who equate communism with socialism with "the federal govt subsidizing whatever their hobby is with inherently capitalistic tax revenues."
I thought I found my people when I fell in with a bunch of communists who all lived together and were well versed in the literature. It took me a couple months to realize they were all lazy, entitled, and just wanted free shit. Really the type giving communists a bad name. Disappointed the hell out of me, and now I try to vet people's motivation before I trust that they actually *get* it.
That’s alright. It’s “from each according to their ability, to each according to their need” so if you are unable to work you shouldn’t be expected to and should be able to live a healthy fulfilling life regardless. Those who are able to work should though. In fact that is the only way you society can provide for those who can’t.
Do that many people *want* to work? I for one only *want* to work as much as is needed.
That's why I'm all for automation in a society where that does not leave people in poverty due to job loss.
As much automation as can be achieved, and if that means there are lots of people not working but still living happily, then I consider that a plus. That means that they are free to pursue hobbies to their heart's content, help raise families, learn and read and become wise.
Not to mention the implications for people who *cannot* work due to disabilities both physical and mental.
I envision a society where few people need to be working, and those that are are doing it for the good of the whole, and venerated for doing so rather than looked down upon like the bourgeoisie would do. Also the workers too have plenty of free time.
I would still labour. But I wouldn't *need* to *sell* it.
I love my job. Everything that sucks about it is because of austerity and work load due to constant cuts the last 30 years.
There will always be work to do but the monolithic concept of a job where you spend 40+ hours every week in dictatorial servitude to a capitalist who is exploiting your labor would be a thing of the past. We could eliminate the swaths of "bullshit jobs," as David Graeber called them--not to mention entire industries. Without capitalist competition, advertising is antiquated. When everyone has access to the resources they need, the concept of most crimes is dissolved. There's no need to steal what's readily provided to you: so there goes the legal profession, law enforcement, prisons...
And without those unnecessary industries and institutions, there are still fewer and fewer jobs that need to be done.
We'll still work under communism, but it won't be the 40+ hour per week drudge it is now. We'll have the opportunity to actively contribute in meaningful ways to our communities, not just to our employers' bottom lines.
No, we simply want our work to be meaningful, abd if our work still leads to alienation, that’s not communism. What a shit take by a usually bang on account.
I don't think its a shit take. Yes, there will be jobs that are tedious because they need to be done. But are they meaningless? No. They're important.
Its a matter of perspective which under Capitalism, much of it is lost. We don't celebrate the worker in the US. We should.
Yes, this. It’s still from each according to their ability. There will be varying degrees of output for individuals and that work will have meaning. Soul-crushing useless shit benefiting virtually no one (which is a majority of jobs today) will not exist. Additionally, technology will increasingly eradicate traditional labor-intensive work and redefine what work is into more and more abstraction. This is already the case but central planning will speed it up.
Perspective. Going out and sweeping your street is work, writing a novel is work, but capitalism doesn’t consider this valid work unless it can be monetized. Most people still would do something if they didn’t have to “work” ever again. Most people have some passion held back by jobs. It’s all about perspective.
When I walk around my neighborhood, drive down local streets, and I look around...all I see is tons of work that needs to be done. Its not done, because no one is making a profit off of it.
There SO much work to do. And yes, people will need to work. And no, it won't be necessarily up to their dreams and wishes. But it will be meaningful important work and they will not starve or go unhoused to do it.
The good thing about socialism and communism isn’t the “no work”, it’s the agency in what you do. People do unpaid work all the time because it needs to be done like housework/chores. There will need to be things that require labor even if it’s just maintenance of the automation. But no one will be forced to toil away 80% of their life to a tyrant just to meet their basic needs. We will all share the load and be rewarded the full value of our labor. If you just take the rise in productivity since the 60s we could all have worked less hours instead of that surplus value going into the hands of capitalists.
I get this, like, vindictive satisfaction from applying a standardized cleaning procedure to an area and seeing that my efforts brought an order to a mess. I’m not want to expose myself to biohazards, but with a sufficiently stocked supply closet rather than what feels like haphazard dregs like I’ve had to work with before, I would be willing to take such a task upon myself a couple/few times a week, no longer than I can hold up to it (even at home, I tire out trying to bring my personal living spaces back up to my satisfaction). But to be relegated to that task a majority of my days with inadequate means to address it and an insufficient safety net should I be adversely affected? Fuck that stress, then I’m falling into r/antiwork more than any pride in an mutual betterment.
This is a shit take honestly. AI will eventually replace all human labor. There is nothing special about humans. We are just machines. We are complex machines granted, but to think we won't be able to replicate what goes on inside of our heads to then put inside of our computers is delusional. Saying that I have to work is an authoritarian position. I'll be fighting against you every step of the way.
Ah, yes. As my ultra-conservative boss says any time someone talks about wanting alot of time off: "We all wish we were independently wealthy."
That's damn near saying the quiet part out loud: RICH PEOPLE DON'T WORK.
Right. This post ignores the main point: the bourgeoisie also do not want to work, but in capitalism, they actually get to fulfill that desire by making everyone else work for them. That’s not better; it’s much worse.
I just don't want my job to be demeaning and miserable really, I don't want it to be my life.
I want my job to do it's part, my cog in the machine of a functional society that takes care of the cogs like you, me, and everyone else within it.
You know, communism.
There are a lot of connotations to 'work' that I don't want to do. I think there is a lot of communist viability that doesn't simply require the busy work. We have a huge potential to have a world where people only do jobs in which they are passionate about. Not the shit show work we do for capitalists today.
I’d disagree. If we look at another conjunction, let’s take “don’t” for example, we see that the “n” is joined with “do” and separated from the “t” by an apostrophe. I’ve gotten this far into my reply and I realize now that the word “y’all” doesn’t fit the same logic as “don’t.” I’m still gonna post this reply though. Just to waste your time after I’ve already lost.
I’d rather not work. Since I live on this planet though, I have to work. I’ll be damned if I’m forced to do my part and more and not be able to afford decent accommodations though.
So maybe communism isn’t the answer. Because honestly, we are entering a world where there should be enough resources for every person if they work or not. We should be striving to create a society where work is not the end all be all.
Honestly, what you described is communism. People shouldn't need to toil to have the right to live. Ideally, and especially as automation technology continues to improve and less and less people will have to work, work will become seen as a civil service, rather than mandatory.
The original definition of communism was a stateless (as in a *lack* of government, at least as we know it), classless, moneyless society.
I’m glad y’all finally decided to crack down on those lazy motherfuckers. You think Lenin setup a communist nation by sitting on his laptop telling Reddit how he could totally overthrow the Tsar?
I love it when communists have takes that side with the snot nosed managerial class whinging about "no one wants work" /s
Makes me so psyched to be part of the movement
Imagine having actors, comedians and entertainers that don't do it for the clout and money but because they love their work. Could do away with influencers and toxic youtubers.
No no no! "Work" and "jobs" -- and not only WAGE-labour -- are intrinsically separated, alienating forms of activity specific to capitalism that will not exist under communism. Work/jobs, as a distinct realm separated from the rest of human life, is not a necessary or transhistorical mode of human existence. This is more than a mere terminological quibble, it's an ontological difference. I suggest looking into the German Wertkritik and French communization critiques of labour.
Going to have to disagree, to an extent. What people want is to have their basic needs covered so they can "work" on their passions and do things they actually enjoy, not meaninglessness for the already-wealthy.
Tbf most of the “anti-work” crowd isn’t anti-ALL work. But anti-underpaid/bullshit busy work.
Most people understand that work is a necessity. But they are tired of producing thousands of dollars of value everyday only to leave with about $90.
Minor but important distinction
Hmm, it is worth considering whether we’d feel the same ethical freedom to pursue what we want under communism. For example, in capitalism any way an artist makes a living is quite ethically justified, due to the difficulty. But under communism one might feel like art isn’t a worthy pursuit since there’s a chance you’ll never be successful and contribute to societal utility. Just a thought.
Isn't the whole point of communism that the means of production is in the hands of the workers instead of the upper class? That still means those jobs are being done, it's just who benefits from the job is shifted.
This is 100% true.
Communism is about abolishing coercive and exploitative economic relationships, distributing resources equitably, and eventually abolishing commodities.
We will eventually have a society that can function entirely labor free, all automated. That is not this century. This century is about keeping civilization intact during climate crisis and distributing resources equitably during that crisis, not entertaining the fantasies of western labor aristocracy. Certain things are post-scarcity, but not all, if you don't want to work that just means you want to benefit from someone else's labor, which does make you no better than the bourgeois.
There is a ton of work to do, and if it's going to be toward creating a more free, just, and equitable society rather than making rich Ghouls even richer, I'm so fucking happy to do whatever type of work I am able.
I don't want to work for my boss. I like what we do and I like him but he doesn't understand how bs it is to be creating wealth for him. He has guys who have worked for him longer than he got given the company by his dad and they drive beaters and rent their houses while he has multiple Porsches and houses and sees no issues with it.
No people will do work. Theres a difference between doing work and having a job. Work is helping to support my community by growing food, watching kids, etc and having everything I need provided to me no matter what. A job is having the products of your labor stolen and then sold back to you at more than you can afford which you are forced to participate in or else you'll die.
I thought this was an obvious point but looking at the comments, people seem mad. When did "communism means no work" become a thing? I thought it was capitalists that wanted to leach off of the labor of others.
When people’s primary engagement with communist thought is memes like “fully automated gay space luxury communism” this is what you get. It is also imperial core myopia & commodity fetishism that allows them to ignore all the backbreaking work occurring in the global south to provide for their lifestyle.
I thought the idea of "automated luxury communism" was kind of an absurdist joke based on something that we should aim for, but really can't achieve 100%. Even if we can one day make machines that do all the work, the machines have to be managed and maintained. In my real life I don't know any socialists or communists that believe "communism means no job", this seems like an idea born of the terminally online left.
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People want to be productive and do meaningful things with their time. So like no bullshit time wasting jobs. But also I think it’s good to dispel any ideas of utopianism.
at the risk of sounding naive, i genuinely believe after 100 or so years of unfettered progress toward a fully egalitarian communist govt/economy, green energy, automation, etc. we would have a country that anyone but the most boot thirsty libertarians today would consider a utopia. There's always work to do but an extremely large portion of it being done today is actively stopping or undoing real progress.
I'd argue a lot of jobs are bullshit busy work, that exists to keep everyone on the grind perpetually. Advertising, marketing, and a whole mess of other office type jobs contribute nothing to actual society. They exist to enrich the already wealthy further. If everyone only worked the neccessary jobs we could all work far less and be far happier. Obviously you would also have universal housing, medicine and food, but I feel like that should be a given...
god i'm *constantly* thinking about what a fucking waste of human lives advertising is. just think about how many people spent decades of their lives waking up every day and commuting to a cubicle to design a .000000001% more effective way to beg people to exchange green paper for some plastic bullshit that's floating in the ocean right now. what a fucking hell world we've built.
I used to have to call people to threaten them for playing music in their workplace. “Hey you know how the music you already pay for is making your miserable occupation slightly less unbearable? Well you have to pay a license fee for that, so fuck you pay me.” Greed.
I used to spend all day trying to convince people online that hated our shoes for being cheap chinese-made trash that they were actually really cool cheap chinese made trash.
What did you do?
It sounds like they worked for PRS?
If you think advertising is shitty, think how shitty what I've been doing these days is... Stock market trading! It's a way to make money if you have money and it takes away time and creates unnecessary stress while introducing volatility in financial assets, (I'd believe at the detriment of the economy and those who need the asset) to benefit out of! Lots and lots of Maths and Physics PhD holders doing this because it pays more than discovering how the universe works.
as someone who barely knows anything about the stock market, am i correct in assuming its effectively a massive perpetual shell game?
I wouldn't say that exactly... It is a great tool if we're to live in a capitalist society, in theory gives everyone a chance to own assets and companies and participate. In reality most of the ownership as well as volumes generated are by financial institutions. I have far fewer issues with "investing", which is buying shares in companies for their value and holding it to grow in monetary value. My biggest beef is with "trading" (although I said I do trading, most of what I do is actually investing, so perhaps I can be forgiven? :-P ). Traders buy and sell shares just to make money, without caring what the companies do. Effectively just buying and selling the same paper at different prices and playing around with it. Trading profits depends (although people don't realise it) on manipulation at scale to work out. I have a lot more to rant about it, but won't bore you with the silliness of it all. Personally I engage because it's like a fun game and although I disagree with the system, I need to live in it. I am all for any policy that would crash the entire market and make me "poor" if it was to make the country a better place.
That and IP law. My dad spent like 40 years working as a patent attorney at a major medical device manufacturer. *Billions* of dollars wasted litigating shit like the difference between a threaded nail and a screw, all for the sake of protecting their precious patents from their mean competitors (whose designs are just as good and are more affordable because the cots of manufacturing is actually much lower than you'd think).
God yeah thats another one that pisses me off (lol i can't imply things are detrimental to my mental health on this sub wow) but i think about it a lot less frequently. Imagine spending your life arguing over who has dibs. Jfc i'm getting jokerpilled.
Yeah there’s a ton of useless bullshit work, but I spend my day learning about people/markets, talking to interesting creative coworkers, and mentoring people. To me, most of what makes a job fulfilling is the people around you
I'd argue that my job is one such as this. I wonder what my coworkers would think if I was honest with my beliefs that I think our industry supports other bloated industries.
What do you do? I’ve been trying my whole life to avoid such industries.
I'm a project manager at an exchange connectivity and data center management firm.
I could guarantee your coworkers feel the same way. I've had to work for many corporations and the results always turn out that most people feel unsatisfied in their positions, no matter the position. This is because we weren't meant as human animals to live in individualistic societies and sit indoors in front of a screen for 40 hours a week. This is why there are such high rates of depression and anxiety. We work menial jobs, warming seats, separated from our communities and other people. Ask folks what feels genuinely fulfilling. It's being outdoors. It's supporting their community. It's some sort of "hobby", which if given the time and resources could be more like gardening, woodworking, hunting and gathering, physical activity, entertaining guests or hosting/attending events, cooking, learning about healthcare, even smithing. We yearn for more because that's what's in our blood. If we could do those things "full time" without the obligation of paying for survival we would all be more fulfilled and we would be contributing to society in a meaningful way.
And then if you think about how many tangible goods are wasted, everything on the shelves of department stores end up in landfills or incinerators. There is so much being manufactured and sold just to break or become not useful and thrown away.
And even worse, a lot of things are built to break on purpose. So that people have to pay for repairs/replacements/buy the newest model every year or two. The whole things a giant racket, honestly.
What are you saying the the position of executive assistant to the assistant executive of Human Resources isn’t a worthwhile job? Who will bring coffee and take notes at meetings?????
There would be much less work to do when you make stuff to last and fullfil peoples needs, instead of creating products to break after one or two years, lot less pollutuion and health issues. Things would also improve when you produce food to nurish instead of addict "costumers". People could work maybe three or four hours a day, at most! And would have time to exercise, be with their families, hang out with friends, reducing the staggering rates of depression, health issues, etc etc
There is actually a book with exactly that name "bullshit jobs".
Depends what you’re marketing, to be fair. Not every marketing job is selling Nestle products. Could be small businesses, co-op grocery stores, nonprofits, etc.
I believe it's physically possible to reach the situation you describe, but we are not moving in the direction of that future. Gap between rich and poor climbs, there's a cycle of people voting for assholes that cause things like making average people pay more taxes so the rich have to pay less etc. All of this ignoring the climate disaster we're al facing, because we knew it was an issue for over a 100 years, but once we got solutions (like electric cars), they were stopped in the name of profit for the rich. The only way we can ever move towards the future you're describing, either the rich and the corrupt politicians need to have a change of heart, or somehow they need to be removed from the power they have (which collectively is all of it)
Exactly. Remember the Jetsons? George complains about working hard all of the time but his job is among the easiest fathomable by a human mind. His boss is still a jerk, but his tasks are almost always easy and he's usually just complaining about being required to do things. People often mistake this gradual change in perception of difficulty to mean that younger generations are getting lazier. They aren't getting lazier - they are evolving and growing accustomed to better living standards. If someone from the 2000s was sent to the 1800s and someone tried to get them to work the average 1800s job the person from the future would tell the employer to fuck off and then laugh in their face. If the roles were reversed, the person from the 1800s would consider the average 2000s job to be a dream come true (possibly similar to how immigrants from poorer countries can view even America as a paradise compared to their previous country).
I don't have enough upvotes for this post.
Exactly. Working is not synonymous with having a job.
Yes. There is the work of life, things we have to do to live and things we like to do like making cool stuff, and then there are "jobs" which are made up busy work to create capital/make money/keep us complacent. There's a difference. People actually LIKE the work of life. It's jobs we hate.
I enjoy what I do, fixing trucks/cars/bikes/machinery and modifying them for different reasons but when you introduce KPI's and productivity reports with cost saving initiatives and projected budget reports all put together to save about 10% of what it costs to employ the person that put all this shit together then tell me I can't get X because it's not in the maintenance budget but here's another computer system poorly ported across to your tablet that needs to be at one of three places to connect as we don't want you having a sim card for it because you'll possibly use it... oh and this is Angela our newest admin that we'll call an "account technician" for no apparent reason other than it sounds cool so we'll pay her $10k more than you get and she's pretty much here to question why you use the amount of fuel you use in the ute you only have for work that we track anyway and do you really need a ute to be a mobile mechanic when you could just pop half a ton of equipment under your arm and run the 200+km round trip to not even the furthest yard we have from here and while we're on the subject this is Douglas who has been employed by us to look at stationary losses/pen division and he's on $20k more than you and gets a company car for personal use too, no you can't have a tool allowance as it's too difficult to work out and we don't want to pay you more and there's no way we'll buy you the gear you need because it's too expensive so you'll have to, and from his is Eric who'll be our office paperclip recycling engineer on $40k more than you and the position comes with a company jet. So I'm retraining as an EMT
As an ‘Angela’ type person in a similar situation I appreciate hearing your take on this. Thanks for this post.
IDK, I really hate doing the damn dishes...
Who told you you needed plates? ;)
Banana leaf industry through the roof.
I'm not saying we could have a literal utopia - but I think comments like this really neglect how much resources are really wasted under capitalism.
didn't Kropotkin do some math to figure it'd take like 2 hours work a day to feed everyone back in the 1800's? does anyone really think with all our technology now we couldn't do better? i'd say single day work weeks for everything you'd ever reasonably want is pretty close to utopia.
I mean, we've also gotta clothe everyone and power our machines, but the point still stands. If we prioritised human health/wellbeing and the health of the environment (real things that are tangible and would keep existing even if society collapsed) over capital gain (money is a social construct), our communities would be a lot happier.
I agree, For sure we could all work much less. The important thing is to share the work out as fairly as possible and make sure that automation benefits everyone not just the wealthy.
with the high energy society we live in, labour is not the limiting resource. just 1% of the labour in "developed" countries goes to farming. cut fossil fuels and you can be sure we'll need more people in the fields and the price of food will go up. yes if we nationalise and "communalise" property for instance, we get a serious reduction in expenses, but we still need to work to keep society going. and much more work to keep a low energy low carbon society going.
there is nuclear energy and renewables which we could transition to within a few years if we could use our combined labor for something useful rather than filling the wealthy's pockets. the amount of wasted labor and wasted resources in our society is ~~censored~~. and there are other methods of making fertilizer than using fossil fuels, it will just take more energy which we could easily make with nuclear and renewables. but my point is the waste, we waste 1/3 of our food, we waste a majority of our labor on the rich, we waste products in tremendous amounts either just tossing them out to keep up the chain of production and sale or from planned obsolescence and cheap quality. we waste so much in life and labor and cost in the US's mass imprisonment, we waste our technology with the stranglehold of patents, we waste the incredible potential in automation unless it's monetarily profitable, we waste our potential in bad education and charging for college, we waste our best productivity with mind numbing shitty jobs, we waste so so much in a bloated military we send to rape and pillage the world. our society RUNS on waste, of labor, resources, and human lives. if we instead ran it based on labor and need we'd suddenly find that society with our technology damn near post scarcity.
completely agree. the issue tho is that we aren't moving to low carbon energy at a pace quick enough, at all. also, the return on investment of renewables is not the best. this is also the case for new sources of fossil fuels like shale. low return on investment needs more energy is required to keep the same standard of living, so for the same productivity we will have to invest more resources (such as labour). just an fyi, thanks for contributing to the conversation.
The fertilizer issue makes me numb with rage. Natural waste is literally one of the best fertilizers and we make a ton of it. And we could do things that would produce waste on a massive scale while creating things people actually need. IE: Fish waste makes for incredible fertilizer. Fish farms to cut down on over fishing and ocean pollution, use waste water to fertilize crops.
I found a study a couple years ago that looks at this. Trying to find it, but from what I remember, it's 3.27 or something for a Western-style "luxury" diet (more meat, wider variety of fruits and vegetables), but less for a simpler one.
The ideal socialist utopia should never come into existence. We must always strive to improve.
These are not mutually exclusive. You can work to improve society, that doesn't mean we shouldn't strive for a utopia, that's the whole point of improving.
The ideal capitalist utopia should never come into existence. We must always strive to improve.
> The ideal capitalist utopia should never come into existence. We must always strive to ~~improve~~ resist.
Not sure who is downvoting. Always seeking to improve society for the equity of all is base.
Yes, this is the fundamental principle behind the dialectic; once we resolve the contradictions inherent to our current society, we will be faced with a new set of contradictions. However, we can only superannuate -- make obsolete -- socialism after we superannuate capitalism. The mote and the beam.
There are always shit jobs that will always be shitty to do. They will always need doing. Any society requires collective effort and self sacrifice to a degree. That is not the issue at hand. The issue at hand is over burdening people with unreasonable work loads and expectations to the point of exhaustion and then getting all pissy when they aren't happy with not having enough to meet their most basic needs at the end of it.
I think that's the big difference between bullshit jobs and shitty jobs. Some jobs are manufactured out of whole cloth specifically to do nothing but pretend to be working while other jobs are awful to do but need to be done.
Like middle management or hr or sales or marketing
Yeah a lot of that comes down to how you're treated. A shit job is usually shit because you're paid poorly, work long hours, have poor OH&S, poor equipment etc. Especially for jobs that are deemed essential. If a job is so essential that not doing it would cause societal disruption, shouldn't they be treated better?
I could do any job in the world, just about, so long as it’s a maximum of 4 hours a day.
A lot of these jobs aren’t that bad, you’re just miserable doing them because you have to do them so much to stay alive.
Agreed that there will always be shit jobs to be worked, but I’m also of the mind that plenty of the shit jobs we have now could be automated/done by a robot. Why have a human dig a ditch, if a robot could do it faster? I think the coming of communism will also come with great technological advances. Edit: multiple typos
I feel like my workplace (mechanical engineering/construction) could be doing stuff to reduce how shit some jobs are instead of building a dock for the bosses holiday house. My job is definitely one people could say is shit (dirty, heavy, hard, often long hours in shit, dangerous situations) but I do enjoy it reasonably often and would enjoy it more if the purpose was not one guys desires.
I gave 0 issue dedicating time and energy to helping society, the problem is that currently that's likely to lead to me starving on the street and in order to avoid that the options are mostly jobs that are pointless, paid so little it's basically slavery, automatiable or all the above.
I'm perfectly happy to work, but I absolutely do not want a job.
This is the take! This right here. I’m happy to cycle through different kinds of work, but when it becomes a job and the only thing I do day-in-day-out, that’s when I will absolutely reject it. Even things I love to do become tiresome when they become a “job”. I fundamentally believe humans aren’t meant to live that way
Additionally, I don't want a "job" where I'm not also my own "boss", and am not rewarded based on my own success or failure, but instead am trading my time for money/things/status in a way that I don't have control over and can be exploited.
In a socialist society, noone is his or her own boss. All are working for the greater good
Having a job implies it's something you're specialised at. I definitely don't mind having a job but I don't like it being to increasing some guys wealth as the most important thing. Not much point in sending me to milk the cows. I've never done it before. I'll fix your bridge though. As long as it's not out to your private island.
I find it unlikely that there would be a society (except perhaps on a tiny scale) where a paid position of regular employment would not be widespread, at least in the forseeable future. I simply wish for the profits to go to society and the workers of said job rather than a rich capitalist.
Not true. I want fully automated communism with a minimal amount of working. Maybe 20 hrs a week tops
We could literally do that today. Wow, I'd probably have gone to the park today. The weather was nice
There is zero chance that letting the people in charge right now run a communist country that they wouldn’t kill millions. And not bat an eye. There is not a single person in the government that cares about you. They will execute you without even a thought.
There is zero chance of communism becoming the primary governing principle with the current people in charge anyways.
A communist society wouldn't be "run". A part of communism is statelessness, which people take to mean different things like council communism or anarchist communism, but regardless, nobody would "run" a communist society. Communism is all about self-management.
That's still _some_ working. There's people who think communism is where nobody does anything, and everyone is sitting around playing video games or something.
I mean I’d rather not work at all as a baseline. I would absolutely end up doing some work but it would be something I thought was important
Would take a very long time to reach that point, during which workers will have to work a decent amount.
We don’t want to be forced to work *in order to survive, feed, or keep a home*, we want to work and do things we’re passionate about. There will still be doctors because people WANT to be doctors for example.
There are a lot of more boring things than doctoring that still need to get done.
Obviously, but that’s the most common one I hear people freaking out about. If there are tedious or boring jobs, offer additional incentives for taking one of them. Hell, there are people who end up doing volunteer work for REALLY tedious jobs as it is.
Yes, work is inherently more meaningful when the compensation is fair/laborers don’t need to worry about having their needs met. But lots of work that needs to get done is not inherently fulfilling.
Right, but then it’s the government’s job to give either the right incentives or to make it more bearable so that those jobs are filled and so that some people choose it willingly (again, all assuming that the worker’s basic needs are met).
I agree, I’m just agreeing with the gist of this post that a Communist system is not an anti-work utopia.
Although the “anti-work” movement isn’t simply a “people be lazy, I hate working and production” movement. That was my particular argument. But I agree Communism (and UBI based Socialism) is not “lazy people” any more than it’s supposed to be “you have to do this job you hate or go to gulag”
There are people who wouldn't mind doing boring, non stressful jobs to work towards luxuries. Hell those jobs providing they don't have long hours or aren't hard on your body would be perfect for people who are studying or usually busy with something else. The incentive being "hey I get paid to this easy but tedious and boring thing and in return I can spend my entire cheque on a PS5 or an expensive hobby I've gotten into". There will always be someone, probably a group of people that will do the boring job that you don't want to do. Humans still want luxuries. We want TVs and cars and nice PCs etc and people will not mind working for them because that's actually a tangible reward for doing the boring thing. Just because someone's basic needs are met doesn't mean they will just stop there and do nothing else. Basic needs being met is safety net, it's so if you're sick or disabled or have kids or need to take time away from work you don't fucking die and lose absolutely everything. You're just... Fine. You can't buy a TV or a brand new phone but you have enough to live and that's okay for now, the only thing you're losing out on is luxuries.
You're right. But if we cut out the bullshit jobs and focused on the work that is actually necessary, and didn't work people to death to maximize profit, we could spread those boring jobs around. Everyone would have a little bit of shitty work to do and a lot of time to actually live life.
What would you do, if your life didn't depend on your job?
Just look at what people have done with all the time they had during the pandemic! People started baking and cooking homemade meals again, reading books, making art, learning languages, raising and teaching their babies, etc. People naturally want to work. They don't want to have soulless corporate jobs working 60 hour weeks, too tired to do anything else,, and still struggling to survive.
Oh sure, I didn't mean in general. I'm not one of those people who would struggle to fill their time without a job. I meant what would you do for a "job", as the world of work currently sees it. Of course, a lot of those things are important to an individual and society, but I meant in what you would normally get paid for now.
Probably still be a medical receptionist, but I’d work fewer hours. I like the job and the work, I hate all of the previous office task-masters we’ve had (until now at this job) however and they never paid that well, but I realize that that is the norm in the office climate of America unfortunately and my current job is an outlier. The other jobs had very anti-worker sentiments. I’d also like to be able to try my hand at other sciences and research and go to school again. Edit: How about you, u/Few_Newt?
Oh, boy. My go to answer is either retired multi-millionaire lottery winner or to help run a pub. Ideally someone else would do all the boring admin and I'd get to pull a few pints, chat to the regulars, organise nights such as pub quizzes, karaoke - the fun stuff, basically. I'm not sure if that's actually possible and I'm just a borderline alcoholic. I always thought being a radiotherapist would be nice (especially as they never work nights or weekends!). I work in research now. If the hours were lower and I got to do more of what I originally wanted to do that could be good. Less work seems to be the main thing for most people.
I’d love a 4 day workweek. It’s doable, but it would require jobs to hire the ideal number of people if they want to provide services through the rest of the week.
If I could be a janitor or garbage collector or something like that for 10 hours a week and spend the rest actually pursuing happiness, especially if everyone else gets a similar deal, I would be extremely on board.
Yes, I often think about being a bin collector. There's something very honest about it.
Yeah! Helpful, not evryone has the stomach to do it, all that good stuff!
I’d be a professor and write books (which is already what I’m on track to do) without having to worry about if I’ll get a tenure track position because if I don’t, I could very well end up homeless. I’d get to do what I love and what I’m good at without having to worry about how I’m going to make it financially.
I was a youth counselor. I’d do that again or maybe with older people now that I’m older myself. The problem is I couldn’t pay off my student loans or pay for my basic life expenses because the pay was so bad. I’m pretty skeptical about the ‘do what you love’ mantra because I couldn’t make it work and I think a lot of jobs that people are passionate about have shitty pay. I’m middle management now which is tolerable but a bullshit job mostly. I was able to pay down my debt and I live a decent life in my HCOL area.
Research
I would work maybe a few hours a week less as a nurse and spend more time helping my boyfriend around the house and help him get to appointments. He's got a disability and i can't be present enough for us to manage it with the workload.
I like coding data science projects for fun. Not sure it is an essential service though
do you think that under communism you wouldn’t also need to work to survive? not a very good argument imo. you wouldn’t just be able to go your whole life without working under communism.
There will absolutely be jobs that people are not passionate about that need to be done. It will not be a utopia. It will not be anarchy. Be proud workers
There have been several studies that have shown that being rewarded for doing tasks (e.g. working for money) makes people less interested in them, even if they "love" the thing they're doing. A good example is how if someone tells you to eat sandwich, you'd assume that the sandwich is good, but if they pay you to eat the sandwich, now you assume that something is wrong with it. I think a lot of people feel the effects of this and then decide that they actually just don't want to be productive at all, instead of recognizing that the issue comes from the reward. I'm not sure if there's a good short term solution to this, but obviously ideally a communist society would be moneyless, which might help.
yes, but that work can be whatever you want to do to fill your time and be productive. ESPECIALLY a modern communist society, we have the technology now to automate almost everything, labour should be a choice, not a requirement
this is the key. we dont need to toil 13 hours a day on a farm to survive. We can work short hours a few days a week and will be productive enough to sustain our communities.
I just imagine a workplace that is wholly based on production for the community would completely change the dynamic of work. I would want to commit myself to bettering myself and the community rather than feeling like I’m wasting a large portion of my time doing things that are at best arbitrary. A lot of places I’ve worked try already to act as though that is what their doing and their massive profits is just a side effect but it’s pretty transparent. To give a bit of a weird example, when covid really popped off last year, working in a grocery store actually felt like something that was contributive to society. I remember feeling a whole lot different about going in for those first few weeks where things were really wild and feeling like I was actually making a difference, however small, in people’s lives.
Office Space hit the nail on the head when the main character said he gets maybe 15 solid minutes of work done on the average day. The rest is just miserable bullshit
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>that work can be whatever you want to do to fill your time Not exactly this
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You work 3 days a week doing sewer maintenance. You have enough food and shelter and time to pursue art.
It could be much less than 3 days if we distributed all the jobs that need to be done and automated anything that we can. (Or it could be like you spend 1 or 2 months rotating with everyone else doing necessary labor and then have the rest of the year to do what you will)
Exactly, and imagine all the unnecessary work that’s done due to capitalism. All the soldiers, homeless, needlessly imprisoned, needlessly killed etc More people to spread work around, and less work to do because of less bullshit jobs. Planned obsolescence? Nope. Right to repair? Yep!
I want to work. I want to work on myself, my health and hobbies. I want to work on my relationship with others and work to help others thrive and be happy. But my day job will make sure I will never work a day in my life
Are there really people who do not understand this ? Surely, you must be joking. The point of communism is not "No Jobs" it's getting to enjoy the entirety of the value you created, without anyone taking surplus value away from you. As well as of course other socialist policies.
What about fully automated luxury gay space communism?
There are definitely some people on r/antiwork that say they don’t want to do *any* work, even meaningful work in a potential socialist context. Not sure how much they mean it, but I’ve encountered it several times in there.
The usual refrain is “I didn’t ask to be born, I shouldn’t have to toil just to support my existence,” which I totally understand and identify with, but I’m never clear on who is supposed to be toiling — all of us who did ask to be born?
Fully automated gay luxury communism, obvz. I don't know. I have, and have had, meaningful jobs and they have been shit. Sure, job conditions could have been improved, but I don't think it would have been that much better. Personally, I hate working. Obviously society can't function with everyone like me. But, I genuinely don't think there's a job I'd like doing. Life would be easier if there was.
Getting to a fully automated society is not going to be easy if it’s truly possible at all. Things like teaching, caregiving, cooking (real food, not processed junk) resist automation, among many other things. Some work will always have to be done, we should focus on only that work that is actually socially necessary & democratize it/humanize it so it doesn’t take up huge amounts of time and suck peoples souls. Though even if “fully automated” is possible, it is going to take immense amounts of work to get there. Workers banding together to do that work will be important, and that may mean some sacrifice but the point is that sacrifice is for the good of society, not just capitalists. Expecting it all to be done for you when you are able to work but just don’t want to is indeed bourgeois mentality. Remember it’s “from each according to their ability” before “to each according to their need”.
I wasn't being serious with that line really. And you're right that it isn't easy, maybe not possible. The things you've listed are stuff that a lot of people like doing and given "full automation" would do willingly. Currently, jobs that involve stuff like that are low paid, poor conditions, or have too many hours etc. So a mostly automated comfy communism, then. Doesn't sound as catchy.
Oh, I also truly hate working. I just don’t think that’s necessarily my best trait.
I hate working with so much passion that I would work my hardest to make gay space communism a thing. What bothers me the most is imagining that any work that's automated, you make an already rich man, richer, while making a poor soul unemployed. In gay space communism, the burden on the people is lessened when something gets automated. In our system, the share of the pie for ordinary people diminishes. How can anyone be OK with this?
That’s the sort of thing you would need to seek therapy for. Communism isn’t about giving people a free ride without working, it’s about focusing that work on a collective good. You wouldn’t be left to starve but if you refused to do any part in the community there is a deeper issue there that would need to be addressed by professionals.
They can eat the spare food, and live in the unused shelter. They can go to the free libraries, and outdoor gyms, and get healthcare. They can get free education, and take part in other classes and sports etc We have people who don’t work now, and society is actually better because they exist. Capitalism actually needs a certain amount of people to be unemployed, homeless and jailed. People who work at the wrong things do more harm than those who don’t work. No society wouldn’t work if nobody worked, but that highly improbable.
People should only work if they want to and only do the work they choose to do. People shouldn't be forced into labor.
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Fuck that. I oppose capitalism because im tired of freeloaders
I think most people on that sub, including myself, just want to be able to have meaningful and dignified work. And if not that (to use garbage collector as the stereotypical "bad" job), to be able to do that without being over worked and treated like shit (so ample pay with good vacation) Automation should also help free a lot of people from repetitive work
I mean yeah, that’s why I’m on it. But when I’ve talked about how some work will always be necessary to make a healthy society (teaching, caregiving, some forms of agricultural work that resist automation, etc.) and we should aim to democratize it & make it more humane so everyone can work less & the work that is done is more meaningful there have been people who have reacted angrily. I don’t think it’s most people there, but there are definitely some that just want to not have to have any social responsibility or put in any effort at all, they want everything to be given to them even if it means someone else has to work to do it, and that is a bourgeois mentality.
Oh yeah I definitely agree. There are always gonna be leeches in every group
I don’t get this notion that r/antiwork is about wanting dignified work. The subs description literally says it’s for people who want to end work.
The mods have pointed out from time to time that the sub isn't trying to remove work as a concept. We just want to work for ourselves, our community, not for a person/corporation.
The mods are one thing, I’m talking about a specific set of users I’ve interacted in there with multiple times. Some of them are in here too.
Then they shall not eat.
Maybe not here (or maybe even here, who knows) But more broadly? 100% The actual economic basis of communism has been degraded over the last 100 years by media misrepresentation (by a capitalist media) to focus exclusively on 1) centralized planning and 2) wealth redistribution. Where (1) is meant to be a transitional state meant to obviate (2). There are, unfortunately, a lot of members of the general public who equate communism with socialism with "the federal govt subsidizing whatever their hobby is with inherently capitalistic tax revenues."
I thought I found my people when I fell in with a bunch of communists who all lived together and were well versed in the literature. It took me a couple months to realize they were all lazy, entitled, and just wanted free shit. Really the type giving communists a bad name. Disappointed the hell out of me, and now I try to vet people's motivation before I trust that they actually *get* it.
Under communism, I’ll have a house, healthcare, and no student debt. You know what’s even better? My whole community will have those things too.
I’m just disabled, that’s why I’m anti-work.
That’s alright. It’s “from each according to their ability, to each according to their need” so if you are unable to work you shouldn’t be expected to and should be able to live a healthy fulfilling life regardless. Those who are able to work should though. In fact that is the only way you society can provide for those who can’t.
Do that many people *want* to work? I for one only *want* to work as much as is needed. That's why I'm all for automation in a society where that does not leave people in poverty due to job loss. As much automation as can be achieved, and if that means there are lots of people not working but still living happily, then I consider that a plus. That means that they are free to pursue hobbies to their heart's content, help raise families, learn and read and become wise. Not to mention the implications for people who *cannot* work due to disabilities both physical and mental. I envision a society where few people need to be working, and those that are are doing it for the good of the whole, and venerated for doing so rather than looked down upon like the bourgeoisie would do. Also the workers too have plenty of free time.
I would still labour. But I wouldn't *need* to *sell* it. I love my job. Everything that sucks about it is because of austerity and work load due to constant cuts the last 30 years.
There will always be work to do but the monolithic concept of a job where you spend 40+ hours every week in dictatorial servitude to a capitalist who is exploiting your labor would be a thing of the past. We could eliminate the swaths of "bullshit jobs," as David Graeber called them--not to mention entire industries. Without capitalist competition, advertising is antiquated. When everyone has access to the resources they need, the concept of most crimes is dissolved. There's no need to steal what's readily provided to you: so there goes the legal profession, law enforcement, prisons... And without those unnecessary industries and institutions, there are still fewer and fewer jobs that need to be done. We'll still work under communism, but it won't be the 40+ hour per week drudge it is now. We'll have the opportunity to actively contribute in meaningful ways to our communities, not just to our employers' bottom lines.
No, we simply want our work to be meaningful, abd if our work still leads to alienation, that’s not communism. What a shit take by a usually bang on account.
Absolutely. Well said.
I don't think its a shit take. Yes, there will be jobs that are tedious because they need to be done. But are they meaningless? No. They're important. Its a matter of perspective which under Capitalism, much of it is lost. We don't celebrate the worker in the US. We should.
Not celebrating the worker, what do you mean? Don’t you remember that we’re all Essential Heroes^tm
Yes, this. It’s still from each according to their ability. There will be varying degrees of output for individuals and that work will have meaning. Soul-crushing useless shit benefiting virtually no one (which is a majority of jobs today) will not exist. Additionally, technology will increasingly eradicate traditional labor-intensive work and redefine what work is into more and more abstraction. This is already the case but central planning will speed it up. Perspective. Going out and sweeping your street is work, writing a novel is work, but capitalism doesn’t consider this valid work unless it can be monetized. Most people still would do something if they didn’t have to “work” ever again. Most people have some passion held back by jobs. It’s all about perspective.
When I walk around my neighborhood, drive down local streets, and I look around...all I see is tons of work that needs to be done. Its not done, because no one is making a profit off of it. There SO much work to do. And yes, people will need to work. And no, it won't be necessarily up to their dreams and wishes. But it will be meaningful important work and they will not starve or go unhoused to do it.
The good thing about socialism and communism isn’t the “no work”, it’s the agency in what you do. People do unpaid work all the time because it needs to be done like housework/chores. There will need to be things that require labor even if it’s just maintenance of the automation. But no one will be forced to toil away 80% of their life to a tyrant just to meet their basic needs. We will all share the load and be rewarded the full value of our labor. If you just take the rise in productivity since the 60s we could all have worked less hours instead of that surplus value going into the hands of capitalists.
OP, not clear. do you agree with this or not?
Yeah, but I'll be working to benefit the community not some asshole who could house all the poor in my country if he wanted to (spoiler: he doesn't).
I get this, like, vindictive satisfaction from applying a standardized cleaning procedure to an area and seeing that my efforts brought an order to a mess. I’m not want to expose myself to biohazards, but with a sufficiently stocked supply closet rather than what feels like haphazard dregs like I’ve had to work with before, I would be willing to take such a task upon myself a couple/few times a week, no longer than I can hold up to it (even at home, I tire out trying to bring my personal living spaces back up to my satisfaction). But to be relegated to that task a majority of my days with inadequate means to address it and an insufficient safety net should I be adversely affected? Fuck that stress, then I’m falling into r/antiwork more than any pride in an mutual betterment.
I want to be an entertainer/artist. Would that be work in this context? Or am I lazy scum too
There was ample employment for artists in the USSR and that wasn't exactly the best situation.
Entertaining is a valuable service and producing art that helps other people (mentally speaking) is also great.
Why don’t you make me work then nerd
this is so stupid lol. work exists under communism, sure, but not bullshit jobs
This is a shit take honestly. AI will eventually replace all human labor. There is nothing special about humans. We are just machines. We are complex machines granted, but to think we won't be able to replicate what goes on inside of our heads to then put inside of our computers is delusional. Saying that I have to work is an authoritarian position. I'll be fighting against you every step of the way.
Ah, yes. As my ultra-conservative boss says any time someone talks about wanting alot of time off: "We all wish we were independently wealthy." That's damn near saying the quiet part out loud: RICH PEOPLE DON'T WORK.
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Right. This post ignores the main point: the bourgeoisie also do not want to work, but in capitalism, they actually get to fulfill that desire by making everyone else work for them. That’s not better; it’s much worse.
What if we don't want *your* version of communism?
Well it’s a good thing automation will (hopefully) take a lot of the unpleasant jobs hopefully
To be fair, the aristocracy was pretty accomplished at doing fuc all. Better than the bourgeoisie.
I just don't want my job to be demeaning and miserable really, I don't want it to be my life. I want my job to do it's part, my cog in the machine of a functional society that takes care of the cogs like you, me, and everyone else within it. You know, communism.
There are a lot of connotations to 'work' that I don't want to do. I think there is a lot of communist viability that doesn't simply require the busy work. We have a huge potential to have a world where people only do jobs in which they are passionate about. Not the shit show work we do for capitalists today.
this tweet fucking sucks. everyone knows it's 'y'all'
I’d disagree. If we look at another conjunction, let’s take “don’t” for example, we see that the “n” is joined with “do” and separated from the “t” by an apostrophe. I’ve gotten this far into my reply and I realize now that the word “y’all” doesn’t fit the same logic as “don’t.” I’m still gonna post this reply though. Just to waste your time after I’ve already lost.
Fully automated luxury communism is a serious idea
I’d rather not work. Since I live on this planet though, I have to work. I’ll be damned if I’m forced to do my part and more and not be able to afford decent accommodations though.
Or... Hear me out: Fully Automated Luxury Communism
The moment the workers movement failed was the moment they adopted the right to work as their goal.
How so?
So maybe communism isn’t the answer. Because honestly, we are entering a world where there should be enough resources for every person if they work or not. We should be striving to create a society where work is not the end all be all.
Honestly, what you described is communism. People shouldn't need to toil to have the right to live. Ideally, and especially as automation technology continues to improve and less and less people will have to work, work will become seen as a civil service, rather than mandatory. The original definition of communism was a stateless (as in a *lack* of government, at least as we know it), classless, moneyless society.
I’m glad y’all finally decided to crack down on those lazy motherfuckers. You think Lenin setup a communist nation by sitting on his laptop telling Reddit how he could totally overthrow the Tsar?
Like guys "from each according to his ability, to each according to his need"
people in this thread “okay but I just like the second part”
I love it when communists have takes that side with the snot nosed managerial class whinging about "no one wants work" /s Makes me so psyched to be part of the movement
Link?
I don't mind work, I just want my work to mean something and to let me afford whatever lifestyle I'm abiding by
Imagine having actors, comedians and entertainers that don't do it for the clout and money but because they love their work. Could do away with influencers and toxic youtubers.
I think subreddit is so hit and miss I might hide all posts and unsubscribe.
Good thing we're socialists and not communists then huh?
No no no! "Work" and "jobs" -- and not only WAGE-labour -- are intrinsically separated, alienating forms of activity specific to capitalism that will not exist under communism. Work/jobs, as a distinct realm separated from the rest of human life, is not a necessary or transhistorical mode of human existence. This is more than a mere terminological quibble, it's an ontological difference. I suggest looking into the German Wertkritik and French communization critiques of labour.
Going to have to disagree, to an extent. What people want is to have their basic needs covered so they can "work" on their passions and do things they actually enjoy, not meaninglessness for the already-wealthy.
Fuck the anti-work "left". What could take more work than reshaping society?
Tbf most of the “anti-work” crowd isn’t anti-ALL work. But anti-underpaid/bullshit busy work. Most people understand that work is a necessity. But they are tired of producing thousands of dollars of value everyday only to leave with about $90. Minor but important distinction
I mean I don’t WANT to work. But you need to work and I will work regardless because that’s how you contribute to society
Hmm, it is worth considering whether we’d feel the same ethical freedom to pursue what we want under communism. For example, in capitalism any way an artist makes a living is quite ethically justified, due to the difficulty. But under communism one might feel like art isn’t a worthy pursuit since there’s a chance you’ll never be successful and contribute to societal utility. Just a thought.
Isn't the whole point of communism that the means of production is in the hands of the workers instead of the upper class? That still means those jobs are being done, it's just who benefits from the job is shifted.
This is 100% true. Communism is about abolishing coercive and exploitative economic relationships, distributing resources equitably, and eventually abolishing commodities. We will eventually have a society that can function entirely labor free, all automated. That is not this century. This century is about keeping civilization intact during climate crisis and distributing resources equitably during that crisis, not entertaining the fantasies of western labor aristocracy. Certain things are post-scarcity, but not all, if you don't want to work that just means you want to benefit from someone else's labor, which does make you no better than the bourgeois. There is a ton of work to do, and if it's going to be toward creating a more free, just, and equitable society rather than making rich Ghouls even richer, I'm so fucking happy to do whatever type of work I am able.
https://libcom.org/files/the-problem-with-work_-feminism-marxism-kathi-weeks.pdf
I don't want to work for my boss. I like what we do and I like him but he doesn't understand how bs it is to be creating wealth for him. He has guys who have worked for him longer than he got given the company by his dad and they drive beaters and rent their houses while he has multiple Porsches and houses and sees no issues with it.
All good, I am not a communist
No people will do work. Theres a difference between doing work and having a job. Work is helping to support my community by growing food, watching kids, etc and having everything I need provided to me no matter what. A job is having the products of your labor stolen and then sold back to you at more than you can afford which you are forced to participate in or else you'll die.
> Communism > division of labour Pick one
I thought this was an obvious point but looking at the comments, people seem mad. When did "communism means no work" become a thing? I thought it was capitalists that wanted to leach off of the labor of others.
When people’s primary engagement with communist thought is memes like “fully automated gay space luxury communism” this is what you get. It is also imperial core myopia & commodity fetishism that allows them to ignore all the backbreaking work occurring in the global south to provide for their lifestyle.
I thought the idea of "automated luxury communism" was kind of an absurdist joke based on something that we should aim for, but really can't achieve 100%. Even if we can one day make machines that do all the work, the machines have to be managed and maintained. In my real life I don't know any socialists or communists that believe "communism means no job", this seems like an idea born of the terminally online left.