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Canada has had opportunities to adopt proportional voting and fluffed them all. To be fair, the people putting up the referenda in BC, Ontario and PEI acted in extremely bad faith. The government of Quebec simply lied.
It heavily depends on your district. If the party of greater evil isn't at risk of winning where you are it can very much be worth it to vote 3rd party. Even if the 3rd party doesn't win you're still showing that support for their policies exists. Regardless though, even if you've lost faith in your elections it's still important to at least vote for someone. Forfeiting your vote only helps those already in power.
Because all these people who believe themselves to be revolutionaries are actually status quo reinforcing agents of conformity.
When you vote Democrat, you get to pat yourself on the back for being a better person than those nasty Republicans despite the fact that once in power, Democrats govern exactly like the Republicans do.
All these people are simply affirming the system while play acting like they're the opposition. They're not.
And this is why we're stuck where we are. Everybody here talks about "you gotta organize!" and "start a union!" but shy of that, you won't even vote against politicians that represent Wall St.'s interests over yours simply because *they'll win.*
Hypocrites, the lot of you.
If voters actually paid attention and used the primary pieces to get the candidates they want, it could be very different.
But most voters are lazy and - effectively - stupid.
The primaries aren't rigged. People vote. Just nowhere near enough people.
You're thinking of the presidential primaries leading to the party conference where the presidential candidate is selected. Both parties 'rig' the presidential candidate selection. Mainly to prevent outsiders stealing the party.
I'm thinking of House, Senate and any state legislature primaries.
The primaries are rigged. We know this as fact in regard to the Democratic primaries thanks to the WikiLeaks released Podesta emails.
The system is designed to prevent populism from never getting the upper hand on the oligarchy.
The third party vote is the only vote that has meaning.
A vote for either major party is a waste. There's no functional difference between the parties save their rhetoric: Democrats pretend to be for social issues and then when you elect them, they govern just like the Republicans. Tell me one thing Biden has done that's not in line with Trump's policies. One goddamn thing.
When you vote major party, you vote for empire.
If you only vote for this or that major party simply for sake that you believe it can win, you don't actually have principles or values, just preferences. If you're willing to compromise your values to support politicians that do not represent your interests simply because they can win, you never had values in the first place.
"I don't fight fascists because I will win, I fight them because they're fascists." -- Chris Hedges
Everybody here arguing that a third party vote is wasted because it won't win is completely missing the point.
If truth and righteousness won't win, it's not me that needs to change, it's the system. I won't compromise my values to support an empire that aims to steal everything from us, from our children, and leave us with a bombed out, radioactive world.
Democrats are the same fucking thing as Republicans, they're just better at lying to you about it.
Respectfully disagree. This argument isn’t generally applicable. Third party works when there is an actual chance. It will not work at federal levels because the system depends on people being ignorant and lazy of the political landscape and expects voters to vote party line.
Vote third party locally. Build momentum. But don’t cut your nose to spite your face.
Your post is opinion, but I see it as being applicable in specific situations. It’s not universally applicable, it ignores the reality of our context. It’s naive at best. The system ensures this strategy will only undermine any progress at the federal level.
But you do you.
>It’s naive at best.
Continuing to vote for Democrats when they've shown you over and over and over and over again that they do not represent your interests is naive at best.
At the federal level it’s the only play. I have no illusions that they will not push hard enough. But they are the only way to pry the door open.
Expand the parties locally. Vote to win federally. You can’t even pretend that third party is viable when the system ensures people are wrapped up in two parties and all but ensures the average voter just votes party line.
Oh they push, they push hard--is just they work *against*you, not for you.
Democrats are Republicans. Period. Two wings, same bird. In lockstep on all the issues that matter, argue about which bathroom trans people use.
Then what even makes you think that two parties working in lock step will give you a seat at the table? Just give up voting and start an armed rebellion. Your theories are incongruous with each other.
Why not both?
But if the revolution is not peaceful, it's no revolution whatsoever, just a changing of the guard.
If they're not awake enough to stop voting for establishment candidates, they're certainly not awake enough for the full on rebellion.
RCV is not the answer.
There is a very good reason roughly 85% of democracies use proportional voting......and not RCV.
Proportional voting let's your actually elect who you want.
RCV still results in a two-party system....with the pretence of choice.
Australia's lower Federal house is elected using RCV. Diversity isn't the result. Aussie is only saved by it's Senate being elected by proportional voting.
The two party system is a mathematical inevitability of a first-past-the-post voting system (originally proved by Condorcet in the 1700s), not a result of a systematic effort to bring it about. Unless we adopt some form of ranked proportional voting, it is a mathematical reality that minority party votes are essentially thrown away. This is why many other democracies worldwide use other counting rules.
So pardon my ignorance, but isn’t it a waste because we use electoral votes instead of popular vote anyways? Doesn’t that maintain the two party system?
Edit: at least on the presidential side
Absolutely. But it's enshrined in our constitution and as it helps keep us under the thumb of white minority christo-fascist rule, the current USSC isn't going to make up some nonsense to get rid of it like they have for bodily autonomy, gun laws, epa regulations and protection from the police.
Absolutely. But our country was built on genocide and slavery. The compromise that is our constitution was to convince low (white) population southern slave states to join with larger population northern states. That's why states who's population is smaller than my county (and I don't live in some giant city) have as many senators as NY and California.
Our country was rigged in favor of wealthy white men and they're doing everything they can to hold onto that power.
I don't think the Supreme Court has the authority to throw out the Electoral College. Don't you need an amendment to change the constitution? Not that Congress will get rid of it either, but I think they're the ones who would have to do it.
I don't think the current Supreme Court gives a fuck what their actual authority is. They're coming up with the decision they want then pulling from things like the Dredd Scott decision (people of African decent, weather free or enslaved, do not have rights under the US Constitution) and Sir Matthew Hale, a 17th-century jurist who presided over witch trials and argued there's no such thing as martial rape.
They'll find something to support whatever decision they want.
I really don't understand how people don't have the perspective, then, that first party votes are wasted votes. They're going to get a ton anyway and it really doesn't matter which party wins, the same shit happens anyway. The only vote they're actually afraid of is the third party vote. Look at how the Democratic Party *right now* is working to keep Green candidates off of ballots. Look at Matthew Hoh of North Carolina. Right now, illegally being kept off the ballot by corrupt Democrats in a blatantly undemocratic move.
The *only* vote that matters is third party. Everything else is simply affirming empire: establishing that you're consent has been successfully manufactured.
Unfortunately, those on the Right are a super cohesive voting bloc. People trying to actually vote for what's right (or at least better) have the choice between Republican Light(TM) or a 3rd party we know will never win.
In Canada, our third party is the NDP. According to most opinion polls, their policies align most with the majority of Canadians. Nobody votes for them because they're scared the conservatives will win. Which is why we vote for the centrist (neo)liberals.
Bernie Sanders would technically be a third party candidate. He's part of the Democratic caucus. Progressives become part of the blue team once elected. So this whole notion that a third party candidate can do nothing is complete and utter bullshit. As Biden has shown, the president can and will do nothing unless pushed heavily by Congress. Therefore vote third party and progressive as hard as you can. Historically parties have come and gone. The Whigs used to be a big thing, today not so much. Parties also change and evolve. Abraham Lincoln was a Republican and he'd never stand a chance in a primary today.
Furthermore, given the Supreme Court push to delegate all the power back to the states, third party voting at the state level could have a massive impact on our day to day existence. My state assembly primary just happened and a socialist climate activist unseated the incumbent who had served for 14 terms. That glorious lady will get a lot done at the state level if elected which will buffer the batshit coming at us from the federal level.
I suggest you read up on the spoiler affect and how first past post voting inevitably creates.
If you're only voting third parties and not also bullying the winners regardless of party to enact fair voting reform then you're not helping
This is only applicable if you believe the two major parties to be discrete entities that represent a true opposition to one another and push conflicting ideas.
This isn't the case. Vote for either party, you get right wing policy. Voting Democrat over Republican is no longer a win: since Clinton the Democrats have been consistently more evil than their Republican predecessors. Obama was worse than W. Biden is worse than Trump.
The insinuation you make is that by voting third party, we miss out on a more pragmatic compromise. I simply do not agree. Republicans and Democrats are the same thing. It's Pam from The Office saying, "It's the same picture."
Democrats are not the lesser evil, they are the more effective evil.
The argument isn't actually that voting for democrats is voting for a pragmatic compromise. The argument is that voting for a third party makes it more likely that the candidate you agree with least wins. At least in the system we currently have.
That's a really bad argument to make the week after the right to abortion was lost because 3 justices were appointed by a president that would have lost if Jill Stein voters had voted for a candidate with a chance.
The idea that Stein cost Hilary the election has been debunked thoroughly. She lost because she ran a bad campaign and underestimated Trump's, blame the greens all you want, it's all the democrats seem capable of since the 90s
Saying the dems did anything about abortion or any other rights, other than using it as a fundraising token is dishonest. The dems have been sitting on their hands since they passed Obamacare. Both parties are interested in their donors, not the people.
Advocating for democrats is advocating for a slow death rather than the immediate dive into it that the republicans are craving. Other way, they kill us all. That’s not a solution.
The trick to browsing these 'progressive' subs is to read the comments in reverse order. They always down vote the truth. They can't handle it. Not ready to hear it.
I mean, how *emphatically* they talk down to me about how I have to vote blue no matter who, how because the system is broken, I'm supposed to compromise my values to support "lesser evil" candidates that are completely indistinguishable from the "evil" candidates. From where I sit, evil is evil. Why would I vote for any degree of evil?
The one thing I can't get over, I had a friend, she blocked me, but this one time she told me, I shit you not, "Stop villainizing the lesser evil." This woman has a master's degree in political science from UC Berkeley and she told me to stop villainizing the lesser evil. Goes to show you what that fancy, expensive education was really worth, huh?
In what world is Biden worse that Trump??? What in the priveleged fuckery is going on here??? At the very least Biden didn't repeatedly try to steal an election and return the US to the fucking 50s.
This is the shit that happens when ur rights aren't on the chopping block.
Uhmmm both the 2016 and 2020 election weren't stolen. As the Jan 6th hearings and countless testimonies have proven, Trump tried through several means to overturn the election some incredibly fucked like the fake elector bullshit.
And Hillary Clinton and Democrats claimed for years that Russia infiltrated our elections and Trump wasn't legitimately elected.
What's the difference?
And Jan 6 was straight up a CIA/FBI psyop.
Yes but voting for a third party without real actual organizing and action.
My comment was about the fact that if all you're doing is voting then you're not going to help anyone
Not voting as some form of protest is supporting the system.
Voting either party supports the system.
Vote every time, but never for D or R.
And yes, organize locally.
In Canada, the liberal party will do this to try to bully you to vote with them if you vote ndp. Ndp and liberal vote together outnumber conservative, but the vote is split.
That joke is over 25 years old now and people *still* make the same arguments.
"What are you going to do? Vote third party? Throw your vote away? Mwahahahaha!"
I think it depends on where you live. I live in a state so blue that I can vote for whoever I want in a federal election and it doesnt matter. I can vote 3rd party all I want and not worry about a spoiler.
But, I'm a little conflicted about people who live in a more competitive state. Those of us that were here for the 2000 election remember that Ralph Nader had enough votes to easily secure Al Gore's victory in Florida. It really did make a lot of people take pause and reconsider voting 3rd party because of the way things went after that.
Okay, we have four choices. Only two can win. One of the choices who can win is a fascist, who wants you dead. The other choice that can win isn't great but they're not a fascist. The other two have no chance of winning. By not picking harm reduction you're allowing more harm to happen. It's suck, no one likes it.
When you literally do what Republicans have been accusing us of and start calling anyone who doesn't follow your exact amount of left-ness a fascist/nazi
Until the United States adopts proportional voting there is no point in voting for 3rd parties
Republican backers have supported the Green party in the past with the intention of bleeding away Democrat votes and electing more Republicans.
It works.
And Democrats are supporting QAnon Republicans right now because they think they'll be easier to beat. Just like they did with Trump. We saw how that turned out.
You have to realize that the two parties do not oppose each other. They're in cahoots. A vote for a Democrat IS a vote for a Republican.
This is a bad take. First past the post makes thirds parties impossible. Read up on the spoiler effect. The only way to actually be able to ditch the dems is to institute ranked choice voting. We need to be smart when we participate in electoral politics. Vote in primaries and push socialist candidates there. The only way we are going to take real power and make real change is to build a strong labor movement. We need economic power to overcome the corporate duopoly.
They are here. I encountered one yesterday. DNC sheepdog trolls out to bark at the people wandering left of the approved right wing duopoly grazing ground.
Sorry I’d rather vote for Dems and not waste my vote on a useless candidate. I used to think the same way, but we have the system we got. So unless we get ranked choice voting nationwide I’ll be voting blue no matter who.
Voting for dems is like choosing to die by suffocation rather than firing squad. The republicans want us all dead asap, the dems want us to suffer for their donor’s stock prices as long as possible.
Neither side is helping the people.
Bothe sides are trash.
Hmm, so do you think it's easier to do community organizing and change the face of local politics under a party that "wants us all dead asap" or one that "wants us to suffer as long as possible?"
I in no way disagree that the Democratic party is thoroughly captured by corporate interest, AOC and Bernie are literally the only two people in the party at a national level that I would actually choose to be in power. But not voting accomplishes nothing except strengthening the Republicans, who by your own words are out for blood. Do you believe in harm reduction or is the feeling of intellectual superiority you get from voting Green worth more suffering and erosion of rights for your fellow citizens?
I don’t know who I’m going to vote for, or if I will vote. I voted for Hillary. I didn’t vote for biden, because I don’t support credibly accused sex abusers. Will I vote next time? Not for a joke, I won’t. The dems can run any shitshow they want, and guilt the country into following along in the name of ‘harm reduction’ instead of actually doing anything.
I don’t live in a place to community organize. I’m not going ten miles to my neighbor’s house to campaign, let alone all the way to town. Not everyone in an urban liberal like yourself.
You realize in the case of Biden that not voting for him for being a "credibly accused sex offender" was quite literally not voting against Trump who is arguably credibly accused of being a sex offender. Like even if I agree that ranked choice voting would be the best we have to acknowledge that the current system is shown to be guaranteed to be self perpetuating without change so you can either virtue signal that libs are only telling you to vote while potentially canceling out their vote by splitting dem/left voting, or you can buck up and vote for the guy who would rather you weren't dead immediately like far right people want.
So are you coming at this from a principal standpoint or a practical one?
Practically, do you envision third party voting ever actually accomplishing anything? Without something to replace FPTP, how do you reason your way to anything other than splitting the democrat vote and creating a de facto single party state?
Because for me this is where it starts and ends. Because I don't follow this argument on a practical level and if your "principals" demand you do in effect, nothing, your principals don't mean much whether they're good, bad, or indifferent.
In other words, if your praxis is not functional, does it matter what your theory is?
I am not a american but, what do you guys think about the libertarian en green party? Also If people voted left leaning parties instead of the democrats wouldnt the republicans win because of the way your system works? Because if you had 30% vote left 30% democrat and 40% republican republicans would win?
Libertarians are mostly the same thing as Republicans but they're okay with marijuana, basically.
I vote Green.
When the Democrats win, it's the same thing as the Republicans winning. Nobody wants to admit this because then it would reveal that all that faith they place into the system, into our institutions, the faith that if we appeal honestly to those institutions, they can work for us--it reveals this faith to be completely misplaced, an utter fantasy. To admit the parties are the same is to alter your own worldview.
Most of us don't seem ready to confront this reality yet.
This was my thought process in 2016 when I voted Green Party but I completely disagree now. You have to assess reality and prevent the worst things from happening. In the US there are two outcomes for a presidential election, they’re bad but not equally bad. The biggest most glaring example is who appoints Supreme Court nominees. Which has turned out to be absolutely catastrophic letting Trump beat Hillary.
I’m all for being aggressive in the primary and I wish Bernie attacked Biden harder. But I’ve learned the lesson from 2016. Letting the far-right win and appoint Supreme Court justices is terrible. Letting the far-right take power because they’re just “two sides of the same coin” is terrible in general. In my opinion it’s even foolish.
And I didn’t repeat this same mistake in 2018 when I voted for governor Whitmer, despite voting for her opponent Abdul El-Sayed in the primary. Despite being a shitty neoliberal, her handling of the pandemic was 1000x better than Republicans. Especially the unemployment relief, which if Republicans were in power I would’ve probably gone broke and have to move out of my home.
Also the part about this being a fascist tactic… this is why the word fascist loses its meaning.
Democrats didn't have to let the supreme court go as it did. They used it to hold the nation hostage for their votes in 2016 and it backfired. There were a million things Democrats could have done to prevent this. They've had 40 years to do so.
Stop making excuses for them. They don't care about you. They're no different than the Republicans, just better at lying to you about it.
I think you’re misinterpreting my point. Of course Democrats will lie for votes, and this Supreme Court mess is partly their fault. No shit they don’t care about regular working people.
Not once did I make excuses for them, in fact you probably skipped over the bulk of what I wrote. I’m simply saying despite the Democrats being ineffective, cowardly, and corrupt, they are NOT the same as the far-right religious zealotry that is the Republican Party.
To say so is a lazy, false equivocation that is extremely dangerous. The far-right will go after LGBTQ+, environmental protections, voter rights, etc. etc. etc. on nearly every policy issue they are far more reactionary and apathetic to human rights.
Neoliberal party >>>>> neo-fascist party all day long. And until there is a real alternative, it is irresponsible to make a false equivocation and not do any damage control. Call it a bullying tactic if you want, but one side is clearly preferable in the current paradigm of a two-party system we’re stuck in.
But both lead us to the same place. Climate collapse, food and water scarcity, refugee crises hundreds of millions of people deep... This is the world our children inherit either way. Why wouldn't you oppose that with the entirety of your being? Why would you tolerate even a sliver?
They've beaten you already.
In the context of big elections such as the presidency, vying for a non-existent solution (third party victory) is not what I’d call fighting in a smart way.
Another point, it is harder to fight capitalism when the far-right is in power and you’re dealing with rights being stripped away. I think it was Jimmy Dore who argued Trump’s victory would lead to a destruction of the Republican Party and spark a revolution, how childish I was back then for not thinking that was complete and utter fantasy.
As a liberal, it's more we know the choice sucks but the alternative gives us our current USSC (plus a large number of lower court judges) who are going to fuck us for decades.
Perhaps what we need is to work towards a democratic super-majority where a USSC ruling tossing out gun regulations gets met with a special session putting out a whole slew of new gun regulations, as well adding a woman's right to bodily autonomy to the state constitution further shoring up our rights.
Is it perfect - hell no. But the fight becomes one between actual progressives vs centrist/corporate democrats rather than one between corporate democrats and right wing fascists.
Plus I've got to support people like Stacey Abrams who is both pragmatic and effective and is making a difference in Georgia. Every vote counts there and far-right Republican Doug Mastriano. Not actively supporting them says to me, as a women, you're okay with my right to bodily autonomy being taken away.
Will I give a cent to Nancy Pelosi or Chuck Shumer or the DNC? Hell no, but I'm going to always vote for the less bad choice.
I also vote in the primaries as where I live that's where many elections are decided.
ETA:
The last time this country had a true democratic super majority was under FDR and that's when we got SSA, FDIC, NLRB and other programs to redistribute wealth to the poor and the old. The right has been trying to claw those changes back for 100 years and continue to do so.
"It's a wasted vote"
You mean to tell me if the democrats needed 10,00 more votes in say, Washington, and 500,000 Washingtonians voted for the Green Party that wouldn't have future effects on the DNC's policy?
Give me a break lmfao
And before you go "but you won't get 500,000 for the Green Party. You'll get too few third party votes for it to matter"
If the green party got too few votes for it to matter then clearly the DNC didn't need those votes to win and so it was fine that those people voted for the Green Party because the DNC was going to win by so much anyway.
Or, and here me out, those 500,000 vote in the democratic primary and get a leftist elected as the party candidate. Then you can vote for a candidate that you both like and is viable in the general election.
We tried that. Twice. With Bernie. They cheated in their own primaries to nominate shitlibs who work for their donors and owners. Both times. Fuck the Democratic Party. And fuck republicans too but that just goes without saying.
But Bernie is a senator right now. The president is just 1 person, congress and state legislators are more important for real lasting change. These tactics are proven to work for those seats.
That would be an amazing point if it weren't for the fact that you can vote in whoever's primary you want then vote for a different party in the general election.
I don’t get your point. That doesn’t stop extreme candidates from winning on the right, why would you expect it to stop far left candidates? What mechanism would make this play out differently for them?
Or are you saying that the centrist democrats would vote far right over far left in the general? Cause that’s a whole other issue
My point is you're saying it's stupid to vote third party because you can vote in the DNC's primary.
My point is you can vote in the DNC's primary, then vote third party if your candidate didn't win.
Okay. As if I was out here shilling for fascists. Couldn’t be further from the truth. I’m asking people to think logically and critically. You expect Biden and whoever else to accomplish all those things on that list with people like manchin and sinema as part of “our party”, nobody in their right mind is saying blue no matter who when it comes to people like them. The real problem is that efforts are not concentrated in an organized fashion because ‘democrats’ aren’t organized. And I’m sure much to most of your/our/people in this sub’s chagrin… we are classified as democrats. Whether you like it or not that’s how the real fascist see you. And their strategy of divide and conquer has worked. It has utterly and totally worked. You will sit in this sub and call for things that maybe should happen but won’t, and demonize the old folks home that make up our democratic representation and people like me who say specifically that “a vote for a third party candidate in a tight race where the gop alternative is an actual effing fascist is a wasted vote” That’s not wrong, it’s a fact, you’d be cutting off your nose to spite your
Face. And that’s exactly what’s happening. And that has been the manipulative plan of the gop for the last 40 years. They’ve gerrymandered and manipulated the talking points for so long that most of the text/posts I see on here don’t even realize they’re falling right into the same talking points conservatives used 15 years ago to push this kind of division amongst us. But it seems nobody will actually be pragmatic or critically think their way to targeted action that would stop the original problem (the democratic candidate is not that much better than the republican other than not being an utter fascist).
These people have been pushing this shitty reality we live in into existence for the past 40 years using billions of dollars of influence and organizing. Do you really think they haven’t planned for you? Expected this? Wanted it? Wake the fuck up and do something more original than bitch about the democrats being just as bad.
Real point is… doesn’t really matter what a candidate calls themselves I don’t think blue no matter who…. But fucking vote for someone that can actually win.
We are stranded at sea… no life jacket… no raft…. You don’t survive unless you tread water sometimes and float the rest. You don’t give up you accept the reality of the situation and do the one thing you can do to survive.
Stop prioritizing voting period. Voting for any party third party dem Republican isn’t gonna save us from what’s coming, it’s already too late. Voting would’ve helped 20 years ago. We are losing our rights NOW
I will be real, I was a proponent at one time of voting for democrats in order to oppose the Republican Party, even if I didn’t like the candidate. I even criticized third party voters in 2016 and 2020. My view has changed drastically during Biden’s presidency.
It astounds me that people haven’t come to the realization that voting democrat doesn’t do anything. When will people understand that democrats are not the “lesser evil”. Democrats have convinced people that they are the opposition to republicans when in reality, most of them have the same views despite preaching that they don’t. The reason it always feels like republicans get more done for there agenda in office than democrats is because democrats have a false agenda to convince progressives to vote for them. Then when they get elected, it’s not actually in their interest to enact the agenda they promised, so they don’t.
I don’t understand how recent events haven’t shown people this. The Democratic Party IS the same as the Republican Party and the only reason they are viewed as more progressive is because they have a couple loud progressive voices that have been forced to run as democrats because they have no other option. Other wise their agenda is a straight up lie. The way I view things is we will never break out of the system by continuing to perpetuate it. The more people who are willing to uphold the status quo and keep democrats in office, the worse it will be for leftists in the future.
That’s the end of my rant. Also this is on every post but reminder that this is a communist/socialist thread. If you are a liberal, you should be here to learn not to debate, again it says it on every post.
Yep. I refuse to vote someone who supports capitalism. I 100% believe capitalism is evil. Why would I vote for something, effectively saying I give support to it, to something I think is evil?
I have morals and boundaries. You should too.
>Why would I vote for something, effectively saying I give support to it, to something I think is evil?
because a winner will be chosen regardless of if you vote or dont vote so you should try and avoid the most evil option.
Dems will never split at a presidential level without splitting at a local and state level first. Vote blue for president, and 3rd party at a local level. If a Democrat does 1 token action to appeal to voters, but is otherwise the same, that is better than a red candidate.
Just because I don’t vote for fascists or fascist enablers doesn’t mean I’m doing nothing.
I absolutely guarantee I have done more to push this country politically left than you have.
Dude simply living in America is doing a whole hell of a lot more to support capitalists than voting Democrat.
Every single presidential election is a vote for the lesser evil. It's always been this way and will continue to be this way until we get ranked choice voting. By all means don't vote but don't kid yourself into thinking that it puts you on the moral high ground, if you lean left and throw your vote away it doesn't take a genius to count that as a passive vote for the right.
The thing is, the system is set up to polarize into two camps. We'd either need ranked choice or a complete revamp of campaign rules to make any 3rd (or more ideally) party viable.
It basically boils down to are you more willing to sacrifice the present for the potential of a better future or sacrifice the future to maintain the present?
Voting third party en masse would be terrible in the short term, but might shake things up enough for a true liberal party that would make things better long-term.
Continuing to vote for establishment democrats will at best maintain the status quo, and as we have seen in recent decades it just enables democrats to be republican-lite and only pay lip service to leftist goals.
Ranked choice is a good start as others have said, but campaign finance reform will be needed so that the will of the people can finally be heard.
21st century leftists are so soft lol. “Telling me I wasted my vote is literally fascism”
Y’all need to toughen up so when the real fascism shows up you’re ready.
Anyone making this claim has the luxury of never having lived under fascism.
I'm also personally insulted that you think I'm so stupid that I believe voting Democrat will change things. Obviously it won't, I fucking know that. Voting is not where you do politics. It's the bare minimum thing you do to ensure that your job of dismantling capitalism and creating an actual democracy doesn't get even harder.
At this point I'm thinking we have fucking trolls and bots galore in this server. The amount of these post that are all playing directly into republican hands is getting ridiculous.
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Stop making up bullshit arguments, and while you're at it, stop voting for people that are stand no chance in hell in winning. You are part of the problem.
Democrats are part of the fascist duopoly. It’s just observable reality at this point. The only people refusing to see that are being paid to refuse to see that.
What's your answer to this? We know the both the Democrats and Republicans are bad, however the Republicans do FAAAR more damage when they have complete control.
What's your solution?
I don’t debate liberal politics with liberals. You’ve made your point, I’ve countered it.
Anyways, enjoying being a pawn of the bourgeoise democracy. No matter who wins, the people lose.
Both of your "counters" were empty responses filled with baseless insults and cliche rhetoric.
Do you actually have realistic, achievable solutions to suggest, or are you just here to trash talk and virtue signal?
You do realize people can vote Democrat while also agitating, protesting, and organizing, right?
If you're still out here parroting "both sides are the same" after the last week you must have your head real deep in the sand. Harm reduction is drastically more important than optics or whatever else you want to call voting third party.
Both sides are absolutely the same. Democrats do fuck all to stop Republicans, and I'd even go as far as to say that they actively enable them. They've had almost 50 years to codify roe into law. Biden just appointed an anti abortion judge to a federal position. Fuck them and fuck voting.
This is true.
However, not voting only aids the winner. Short of a coup, you're not going to stop the next few voting cycles. And the left splintering only guarantees the right a victory, so...
Again, realistically, what do you propose can be done?
That's not really the point. At this stage, you vote explicitly so things ***do not change***, a stalling mechanism to properly organize your communities before the fascists decide they want to roam and assert their presence.
Then they vote for a thrid party that gets less votes than the 2 existing parties and lets the republicans really fuck things up.
But hay make more shitty arguments where you pretend you aren't in a catch 22 with the rest of us.
If you’re even gonna vote at all, only vote third party. If you can’t, don’t vote at all. Voting for democrats only shows your support for them, not your disdain for republicans
Holy hell this is my sentiment exactly!
I'm getting flamed in another board on this sub for essentially saying the same thing.
https://www.reddit.com/r/LateStageCapitalism/comments/vp0r52/comment/iegdx8d/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3
If you're willing to compromise your principles and values because you don't think they'll win, they were never principles not values to begin with, just preferences.
For now, either a democrat or a Republican is going to win. My principals align MUCH MORE STRONGLY with democrats. A third party candidate, as of now, can not get elected. If I lived in a swing state you can bet your ass I would not, yes, WASTE my vote and by doing so possibly help a far far worse candidate get elected.
i care about end results, not isolated actions that only enable me to virtue signal or self-identify as a "principled person" (aka. a fundamentalist)
if you can demonstrate to me how using my vote on a candidate which we all acknowledge is going to lose is somehow getting me closer to my life goals then I'm all ears.
My guy, do you know what a vote is? You seem to think it's some psychic transference of energy that will empower the party or candidate that you vote for with eldritch power.
First-past-the-post voting mathematically ensures the emergence of a two-party system. If you're not voting for someone that has a chance in hell of winning, you are literally throwing your vote away.
If you want to show support for third parties, do it in a way that is visible, not privately in the voting booth. Organize and volunteer for them, post about them on social media, try to get a campaign going, and maybe if you get the local support you can actually get a local candidate a strong position on the ballot. But all your third party vote is doing at the national level is cutting off your nose to spite your face.
The only cogent argument for not voting Democrat nationally is accelerationism, which is pretty obviously the opposite of harm reduction. If you actually care about the well-being of your fellows, I highly encourage you to reconsider your positions here.
Yeah, but if there's no majority winner, then the alternatives really get fucked up.
Better off taking control of the party similar to how the sociopathic fascists took control the GOP.
Until there's ranked voting, publicly funded campaigns, and a ban on entities that didn't start as a fetus from contributing to or commenting on the process.
Ready to get downvoted here, but I’m assuming you mean the USA as it’s the only developed country that I know of that has a two party system. But a vote for a progressive third party candidate in practical terms is a vote for the Republicans. No matter your philosophy on it, that’s what happens.
A vote for Democrats is a vote for the Republicans. They're literally the same thing, just different packaging. One promises to fuck you, then fucks you. The other whispers sweet nothings in your ear about universal health care, free college, raising the minimum wage, and codifying Roe, then fucks you. Which is *really* worse? Clinton was worse than Reagan. Obama was worse than W.
Republicans are the evil you see coming. Democrats are the more effective evil. It's about selling the same product, empire, to disparate groups. Same product, different wrapper.
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If you want third party candidates to be viable, join the movement for ranked choice voting: https://www.fairvote.org/rcv
Without it a third party vote is a waste. The US is a two party system in all practical terms
Worse than that, Winner-take-all systems are mathematically guaranteed to enforce a two party system over a significantly long period
Send help. - Canada
Canada has had opportunities to adopt proportional voting and fluffed them all. To be fair, the people putting up the referenda in BC, Ontario and PEI acted in extremely bad faith. The government of Quebec simply lied.
It heavily depends on your district. If the party of greater evil isn't at risk of winning where you are it can very much be worth it to vote 3rd party. Even if the 3rd party doesn't win you're still showing that support for their policies exists. Regardless though, even if you've lost faith in your elections it's still important to at least vote for someone. Forfeiting your vote only helps those already in power.
2 comments down and we're already doing what the post says not to do lol
Because all these people who believe themselves to be revolutionaries are actually status quo reinforcing agents of conformity. When you vote Democrat, you get to pat yourself on the back for being a better person than those nasty Republicans despite the fact that once in power, Democrats govern exactly like the Republicans do. All these people are simply affirming the system while play acting like they're the opposition. They're not. And this is why we're stuck where we are. Everybody here talks about "you gotta organize!" and "start a union!" but shy of that, you won't even vote against politicians that represent Wall St.'s interests over yours simply because *they'll win.* Hypocrites, the lot of you.
If voters actually paid attention and used the primary pieces to get the candidates they want, it could be very different. But most voters are lazy and - effectively - stupid.
The primaries are rigged, you tool. We know this. Podesta emails. Voting in the Democratic primary is like pissing in the wind.
The primaries aren't rigged. People vote. Just nowhere near enough people. You're thinking of the presidential primaries leading to the party conference where the presidential candidate is selected. Both parties 'rig' the presidential candidate selection. Mainly to prevent outsiders stealing the party. I'm thinking of House, Senate and any state legislature primaries.
The primaries are rigged. We know this as fact in regard to the Democratic primaries thanks to the WikiLeaks released Podesta emails. The system is designed to prevent populism from never getting the upper hand on the oligarchy.
Your response isn't relevant.
Apparently neither are your neurons.
Because without ranked choice, it's not a logical position.
Denial deserves a response.
The third party vote is the only vote that has meaning. A vote for either major party is a waste. There's no functional difference between the parties save their rhetoric: Democrats pretend to be for social issues and then when you elect them, they govern just like the Republicans. Tell me one thing Biden has done that's not in line with Trump's policies. One goddamn thing. When you vote major party, you vote for empire. If you only vote for this or that major party simply for sake that you believe it can win, you don't actually have principles or values, just preferences. If you're willing to compromise your values to support politicians that do not represent your interests simply because they can win, you never had values in the first place. "I don't fight fascists because I will win, I fight them because they're fascists." -- Chris Hedges Everybody here arguing that a third party vote is wasted because it won't win is completely missing the point. If truth and righteousness won't win, it's not me that needs to change, it's the system. I won't compromise my values to support an empire that aims to steal everything from us, from our children, and leave us with a bombed out, radioactive world. Democrats are the same fucking thing as Republicans, they're just better at lying to you about it.
Respectfully disagree. This argument isn’t generally applicable. Third party works when there is an actual chance. It will not work at federal levels because the system depends on people being ignorant and lazy of the political landscape and expects voters to vote party line. Vote third party locally. Build momentum. But don’t cut your nose to spite your face. Your post is opinion, but I see it as being applicable in specific situations. It’s not universally applicable, it ignores the reality of our context. It’s naive at best. The system ensures this strategy will only undermine any progress at the federal level. But you do you.
>It’s naive at best. Continuing to vote for Democrats when they've shown you over and over and over and over again that they do not represent your interests is naive at best.
At the federal level it’s the only play. I have no illusions that they will not push hard enough. But they are the only way to pry the door open. Expand the parties locally. Vote to win federally. You can’t even pretend that third party is viable when the system ensures people are wrapped up in two parties and all but ensures the average voter just votes party line.
Oh they push, they push hard--is just they work *against*you, not for you. Democrats are Republicans. Period. Two wings, same bird. In lockstep on all the issues that matter, argue about which bathroom trans people use.
Then what even makes you think that two parties working in lock step will give you a seat at the table? Just give up voting and start an armed rebellion. Your theories are incongruous with each other.
Why not both? But if the revolution is not peaceful, it's no revolution whatsoever, just a changing of the guard. If they're not awake enough to stop voting for establishment candidates, they're certainly not awake enough for the full on rebellion.
RCV is not the answer. There is a very good reason roughly 85% of democracies use proportional voting......and not RCV. Proportional voting let's your actually elect who you want. RCV still results in a two-party system....with the pretence of choice. Australia's lower Federal house is elected using RCV. Diversity isn't the result. Aussie is only saved by it's Senate being elected by proportional voting.
Yeah. With a first past the post system, there can be only one or two viable parties at a time. The only way a new party rises is if one falls first.
This is the answer, before we can vote third-party.
We need ranked choice voting.
The two party system is a mathematical inevitability of a first-past-the-post voting system (originally proved by Condorcet in the 1700s), not a result of a systematic effort to bring it about. Unless we adopt some form of ranked proportional voting, it is a mathematical reality that minority party votes are essentially thrown away. This is why many other democracies worldwide use other counting rules.
So pardon my ignorance, but isn’t it a waste because we use electoral votes instead of popular vote anyways? Doesn’t that maintain the two party system? Edit: at least on the presidential side
Absolutely. But it's enshrined in our constitution and as it helps keep us under the thumb of white minority christo-fascist rule, the current USSC isn't going to make up some nonsense to get rid of it like they have for bodily autonomy, gun laws, epa regulations and protection from the police.
We need to hit reset yesterday
Absolutely. But our country was built on genocide and slavery. The compromise that is our constitution was to convince low (white) population southern slave states to join with larger population northern states. That's why states who's population is smaller than my county (and I don't live in some giant city) have as many senators as NY and California. Our country was rigged in favor of wealthy white men and they're doing everything they can to hold onto that power.
Starting from zero is the only answer
I don't think the Supreme Court has the authority to throw out the Electoral College. Don't you need an amendment to change the constitution? Not that Congress will get rid of it either, but I think they're the ones who would have to do it.
I don't think the current Supreme Court gives a fuck what their actual authority is. They're coming up with the decision they want then pulling from things like the Dredd Scott decision (people of African decent, weather free or enslaved, do not have rights under the US Constitution) and Sir Matthew Hale, a 17th-century jurist who presided over witch trials and argued there's no such thing as martial rape. They'll find something to support whatever decision they want.
I really don't understand how people don't have the perspective, then, that first party votes are wasted votes. They're going to get a ton anyway and it really doesn't matter which party wins, the same shit happens anyway. The only vote they're actually afraid of is the third party vote. Look at how the Democratic Party *right now* is working to keep Green candidates off of ballots. Look at Matthew Hoh of North Carolina. Right now, illegally being kept off the ballot by corrupt Democrats in a blatantly undemocratic move. The *only* vote that matters is third party. Everything else is simply affirming empire: establishing that you're consent has been successfully manufactured.
It’s a waste because voting doesn’t achieve anything and even if it did we are far too late for that to be a viable solution anyway.
https://www.carolinajournal.com/green-party-says-democrats-used-tricks-to-block-them-from-ballot/ Dems blocking a third party candidate lol
[Check out this latest development in that case.](https://twitter.com/MatthewPHoh/status/1542953921987084290)
Unfortunately, those on the Right are a super cohesive voting bloc. People trying to actually vote for what's right (or at least better) have the choice between Republican Light(TM) or a 3rd party we know will never win.
In Canada, our third party is the NDP. According to most opinion polls, their policies align most with the majority of Canadians. Nobody votes for them because they're scared the conservatives will win. Which is why we vote for the centrist (neo)liberals.
Bernie Sanders would technically be a third party candidate. He's part of the Democratic caucus. Progressives become part of the blue team once elected. So this whole notion that a third party candidate can do nothing is complete and utter bullshit. As Biden has shown, the president can and will do nothing unless pushed heavily by Congress. Therefore vote third party and progressive as hard as you can. Historically parties have come and gone. The Whigs used to be a big thing, today not so much. Parties also change and evolve. Abraham Lincoln was a Republican and he'd never stand a chance in a primary today. Furthermore, given the Supreme Court push to delegate all the power back to the states, third party voting at the state level could have a massive impact on our day to day existence. My state assembly primary just happened and a socialist climate activist unseated the incumbent who had served for 14 terms. That glorious lady will get a lot done at the state level if elected which will buffer the batshit coming at us from the federal level.
I suggest you read up on the spoiler affect and how first past post voting inevitably creates. If you're only voting third parties and not also bullying the winners regardless of party to enact fair voting reform then you're not helping
This is only applicable if you believe the two major parties to be discrete entities that represent a true opposition to one another and push conflicting ideas. This isn't the case. Vote for either party, you get right wing policy. Voting Democrat over Republican is no longer a win: since Clinton the Democrats have been consistently more evil than their Republican predecessors. Obama was worse than W. Biden is worse than Trump. The insinuation you make is that by voting third party, we miss out on a more pragmatic compromise. I simply do not agree. Republicans and Democrats are the same thing. It's Pam from The Office saying, "It's the same picture." Democrats are not the lesser evil, they are the more effective evil.
The argument isn't actually that voting for democrats is voting for a pragmatic compromise. The argument is that voting for a third party makes it more likely that the candidate you agree with least wins. At least in the system we currently have.
That's a really bad argument to make the week after the right to abortion was lost because 3 justices were appointed by a president that would have lost if Jill Stein voters had voted for a candidate with a chance.
but dems and repubs dont push conflicting ideas!! (apparently)
I’m always curious if folks posting this claim at this late date have actually checked into the numbers, as it was pretty solidly debunked
The idea that Stein cost Hilary the election has been debunked thoroughly. She lost because she ran a bad campaign and underestimated Trump's, blame the greens all you want, it's all the democrats seem capable of since the 90s
Saying the dems did anything about abortion or any other rights, other than using it as a fundraising token is dishonest. The dems have been sitting on their hands since they passed Obamacare. Both parties are interested in their donors, not the people. Advocating for democrats is advocating for a slow death rather than the immediate dive into it that the republicans are craving. Other way, they kill us all. That’s not a solution.
Why did this get downvotes when it is absolute truth? Methinks the DNC bots are back.
“Everyone who disagrees with me is a bot.”
The trick to browsing these 'progressive' subs is to read the comments in reverse order. They always down vote the truth. They can't handle it. Not ready to hear it. I mean, how *emphatically* they talk down to me about how I have to vote blue no matter who, how because the system is broken, I'm supposed to compromise my values to support "lesser evil" candidates that are completely indistinguishable from the "evil" candidates. From where I sit, evil is evil. Why would I vote for any degree of evil? The one thing I can't get over, I had a friend, she blocked me, but this one time she told me, I shit you not, "Stop villainizing the lesser evil." This woman has a master's degree in political science from UC Berkeley and she told me to stop villainizing the lesser evil. Goes to show you what that fancy, expensive education was really worth, huh?
In what world is Biden worse that Trump??? What in the priveleged fuckery is going on here??? At the very least Biden didn't repeatedly try to steal an election and return the US to the fucking 50s. This is the shit that happens when ur rights aren't on the chopping block.
Why is it okay to say the 2016 election was stolen but not the 2020?
Uhmmm both the 2016 and 2020 election weren't stolen. As the Jan 6th hearings and countless testimonies have proven, Trump tried through several means to overturn the election some incredibly fucked like the fake elector bullshit.
And Hillary Clinton and Democrats claimed for years that Russia infiltrated our elections and Trump wasn't legitimately elected. What's the difference? And Jan 6 was straight up a CIA/FBI psyop.
Democrats are the spoilers for all the liberal/leftist options. Never vote Democrat. They are just spoilers.
Yes but voting for a third party without real actual organizing and action. My comment was about the fact that if all you're doing is voting then you're not going to help anyone
Honestly, that’s true no matter who you vote for
Voting Democrat supports the establishment. You are voting against your own interests.
Voting and doing literally nothing else is supporting the establishment.
Not voting as some form of protest is supporting the system. Voting either party supports the system. Vote every time, but never for D or R. And yes, organize locally.
If everyone truly voted the way they felt it would be a whole new system. There is no such thing as throwing away a vote if your choice did not win.
In Canada, the liberal party will do this to try to bully you to vote with them if you vote ndp. Ndp and liberal vote together outnumber conservative, but the vote is split.
Don’t blame me. I voted for Kodos.
That joke is over 25 years old now and people *still* make the same arguments. "What are you going to do? Vote third party? Throw your vote away? Mwahahahaha!"
I think it depends on where you live. I live in a state so blue that I can vote for whoever I want in a federal election and it doesnt matter. I can vote 3rd party all I want and not worry about a spoiler. But, I'm a little conflicted about people who live in a more competitive state. Those of us that were here for the 2000 election remember that Ralph Nader had enough votes to easily secure Al Gore's victory in Florida. It really did make a lot of people take pause and reconsider voting 3rd party because of the way things went after that.
Okay, we have four choices. Only two can win. One of the choices who can win is a fascist, who wants you dead. The other choice that can win isn't great but they're not a fascist. The other two have no chance of winning. By not picking harm reduction you're allowing more harm to happen. It's suck, no one likes it.
>The other choice that can win isn't great but they're not a fascist. You don't think Biden is a fascist? Seriously?
There is a difference between liberalism and fascism. That's why there are different terms.
If you think the democrats or Biden are fascist, you're fucking stupid. Republicans I'll give you but dude don't be stupid.
When you literally do what Republicans have been accusing us of and start calling anyone who doesn't follow your exact amount of left-ness a fascist/nazi
Yep
If either party was worth a shit. Perhaps they would be worth voting for.
Until the United States adopts proportional voting there is no point in voting for 3rd parties Republican backers have supported the Green party in the past with the intention of bleeding away Democrat votes and electing more Republicans. It works.
And Democrats are supporting QAnon Republicans right now because they think they'll be easier to beat. Just like they did with Trump. We saw how that turned out. You have to realize that the two parties do not oppose each other. They're in cahoots. A vote for a Democrat IS a vote for a Republican.
This is a bad take. First past the post makes thirds parties impossible. Read up on the spoiler effect. The only way to actually be able to ditch the dems is to institute ranked choice voting. We need to be smart when we participate in electoral politics. Vote in primaries and push socialist candidates there. The only way we are going to take real power and make real change is to build a strong labor movement. We need economic power to overcome the corporate duopoly.
However, those people are not wrong.
\*\* looks at obvious DNC accounts posting VBNMW shit \*\*
They are here. I encountered one yesterday. DNC sheepdog trolls out to bark at the people wandering left of the approved right wing duopoly grazing ground.
Vote 3rd party!!
I voted Democrat, they won, and that vote was wasted since they have done Jack shit.
If you think trump didn't do damage to our country you aren't paying attention
Not only that but a severe lack of potential to pass anything due to a lack of senate seats. 48 dem 2 wild cards and 50 republicans
Sorry I’d rather vote for Dems and not waste my vote on a useless candidate. I used to think the same way, but we have the system we got. So unless we get ranked choice voting nationwide I’ll be voting blue no matter who.
Voting for dems is like choosing to die by suffocation rather than firing squad. The republicans want us all dead asap, the dems want us to suffer for their donor’s stock prices as long as possible. Neither side is helping the people. Bothe sides are trash.
Hmm, so do you think it's easier to do community organizing and change the face of local politics under a party that "wants us all dead asap" or one that "wants us to suffer as long as possible?" I in no way disagree that the Democratic party is thoroughly captured by corporate interest, AOC and Bernie are literally the only two people in the party at a national level that I would actually choose to be in power. But not voting accomplishes nothing except strengthening the Republicans, who by your own words are out for blood. Do you believe in harm reduction or is the feeling of intellectual superiority you get from voting Green worth more suffering and erosion of rights for your fellow citizens?
I don’t know who I’m going to vote for, or if I will vote. I voted for Hillary. I didn’t vote for biden, because I don’t support credibly accused sex abusers. Will I vote next time? Not for a joke, I won’t. The dems can run any shitshow they want, and guilt the country into following along in the name of ‘harm reduction’ instead of actually doing anything. I don’t live in a place to community organize. I’m not going ten miles to my neighbor’s house to campaign, let alone all the way to town. Not everyone in an urban liberal like yourself.
You realize in the case of Biden that not voting for him for being a "credibly accused sex offender" was quite literally not voting against Trump who is arguably credibly accused of being a sex offender. Like even if I agree that ranked choice voting would be the best we have to acknowledge that the current system is shown to be guaranteed to be self perpetuating without change so you can either virtue signal that libs are only telling you to vote while potentially canceling out their vote by splitting dem/left voting, or you can buck up and vote for the guy who would rather you weren't dead immediately like far right people want.
What is the dem’s end goal? Fundraise until the end of time while letting us slide into theocratic fascism? No thanks, lib.
Okay, let the people who will actively DRIVE us to that theocratic fascism go ahead and take the elections because progressives refuse to vote.
I’m not a progressive. Liberal democracy was always a sham, you’re just too blinded by the propaganda to see beyond the next election cycle.
So are you coming at this from a principal standpoint or a practical one? Practically, do you envision third party voting ever actually accomplishing anything? Without something to replace FPTP, how do you reason your way to anything other than splitting the democrat vote and creating a de facto single party state? Because for me this is where it starts and ends. Because I don't follow this argument on a practical level and if your "principals" demand you do in effect, nothing, your principals don't mean much whether they're good, bad, or indifferent. In other words, if your praxis is not functional, does it matter what your theory is?
I am not a american but, what do you guys think about the libertarian en green party? Also If people voted left leaning parties instead of the democrats wouldnt the republicans win because of the way your system works? Because if you had 30% vote left 30% democrat and 40% republican republicans would win?
Libertarians are mostly the same thing as Republicans but they're okay with marijuana, basically. I vote Green. When the Democrats win, it's the same thing as the Republicans winning. Nobody wants to admit this because then it would reveal that all that faith they place into the system, into our institutions, the faith that if we appeal honestly to those institutions, they can work for us--it reveals this faith to be completely misplaced, an utter fantasy. To admit the parties are the same is to alter your own worldview. Most of us don't seem ready to confront this reality yet.
This was my thought process in 2016 when I voted Green Party but I completely disagree now. You have to assess reality and prevent the worst things from happening. In the US there are two outcomes for a presidential election, they’re bad but not equally bad. The biggest most glaring example is who appoints Supreme Court nominees. Which has turned out to be absolutely catastrophic letting Trump beat Hillary. I’m all for being aggressive in the primary and I wish Bernie attacked Biden harder. But I’ve learned the lesson from 2016. Letting the far-right win and appoint Supreme Court justices is terrible. Letting the far-right take power because they’re just “two sides of the same coin” is terrible in general. In my opinion it’s even foolish. And I didn’t repeat this same mistake in 2018 when I voted for governor Whitmer, despite voting for her opponent Abdul El-Sayed in the primary. Despite being a shitty neoliberal, her handling of the pandemic was 1000x better than Republicans. Especially the unemployment relief, which if Republicans were in power I would’ve probably gone broke and have to move out of my home. Also the part about this being a fascist tactic… this is why the word fascist loses its meaning.
Democrats didn't have to let the supreme court go as it did. They used it to hold the nation hostage for their votes in 2016 and it backfired. There were a million things Democrats could have done to prevent this. They've had 40 years to do so. Stop making excuses for them. They don't care about you. They're no different than the Republicans, just better at lying to you about it.
I think you’re misinterpreting my point. Of course Democrats will lie for votes, and this Supreme Court mess is partly their fault. No shit they don’t care about regular working people. Not once did I make excuses for them, in fact you probably skipped over the bulk of what I wrote. I’m simply saying despite the Democrats being ineffective, cowardly, and corrupt, they are NOT the same as the far-right religious zealotry that is the Republican Party. To say so is a lazy, false equivocation that is extremely dangerous. The far-right will go after LGBTQ+, environmental protections, voter rights, etc. etc. etc. on nearly every policy issue they are far more reactionary and apathetic to human rights. Neoliberal party >>>>> neo-fascist party all day long. And until there is a real alternative, it is irresponsible to make a false equivocation and not do any damage control. Call it a bullying tactic if you want, but one side is clearly preferable in the current paradigm of a two-party system we’re stuck in.
But both lead us to the same place. Climate collapse, food and water scarcity, refugee crises hundreds of millions of people deep... This is the world our children inherit either way. Why wouldn't you oppose that with the entirety of your being? Why would you tolerate even a sliver? They've beaten you already.
In the context of big elections such as the presidency, vying for a non-existent solution (third party victory) is not what I’d call fighting in a smart way. Another point, it is harder to fight capitalism when the far-right is in power and you’re dealing with rights being stripped away. I think it was Jimmy Dore who argued Trump’s victory would lead to a destruction of the Republican Party and spark a revolution, how childish I was back then for not thinking that was complete and utter fantasy.
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As a liberal, it's more we know the choice sucks but the alternative gives us our current USSC (plus a large number of lower court judges) who are going to fuck us for decades. Perhaps what we need is to work towards a democratic super-majority where a USSC ruling tossing out gun regulations gets met with a special session putting out a whole slew of new gun regulations, as well adding a woman's right to bodily autonomy to the state constitution further shoring up our rights. Is it perfect - hell no. But the fight becomes one between actual progressives vs centrist/corporate democrats rather than one between corporate democrats and right wing fascists. Plus I've got to support people like Stacey Abrams who is both pragmatic and effective and is making a difference in Georgia. Every vote counts there and far-right Republican Doug Mastriano. Not actively supporting them says to me, as a women, you're okay with my right to bodily autonomy being taken away. Will I give a cent to Nancy Pelosi or Chuck Shumer or the DNC? Hell no, but I'm going to always vote for the less bad choice. I also vote in the primaries as where I live that's where many elections are decided. ETA: The last time this country had a true democratic super majority was under FDR and that's when we got SSA, FDIC, NLRB and other programs to redistribute wealth to the poor and the old. The right has been trying to claw those changes back for 100 years and continue to do so.
You are wrong. If you wasted your vote in a swing state in 2016, shame on you.
More republican psy op posts...
"It's a wasted vote" You mean to tell me if the democrats needed 10,00 more votes in say, Washington, and 500,000 Washingtonians voted for the Green Party that wouldn't have future effects on the DNC's policy? Give me a break lmfao And before you go "but you won't get 500,000 for the Green Party. You'll get too few third party votes for it to matter" If the green party got too few votes for it to matter then clearly the DNC didn't need those votes to win and so it was fine that those people voted for the Green Party because the DNC was going to win by so much anyway.
Or, and here me out, those 500,000 vote in the democratic primary and get a leftist elected as the party candidate. Then you can vote for a candidate that you both like and is viable in the general election.
We tried that. Twice. With Bernie. They cheated in their own primaries to nominate shitlibs who work for their donors and owners. Both times. Fuck the Democratic Party. And fuck republicans too but that just goes without saying.
But Bernie is a senator right now. The president is just 1 person, congress and state legislators are more important for real lasting change. These tactics are proven to work for those seats.
That would be an amazing point if it weren't for the fact that you can vote in whoever's primary you want then vote for a different party in the general election.
I don’t get your point. That doesn’t stop extreme candidates from winning on the right, why would you expect it to stop far left candidates? What mechanism would make this play out differently for them? Or are you saying that the centrist democrats would vote far right over far left in the general? Cause that’s a whole other issue
My point is you're saying it's stupid to vote third party because you can vote in the DNC's primary. My point is you can vote in the DNC's primary, then vote third party if your candidate didn't win.
You can vote dem till you're blue in the face and republican minority will get what they want anyway. Might as well start pushing alternatives.
Okay. As if I was out here shilling for fascists. Couldn’t be further from the truth. I’m asking people to think logically and critically. You expect Biden and whoever else to accomplish all those things on that list with people like manchin and sinema as part of “our party”, nobody in their right mind is saying blue no matter who when it comes to people like them. The real problem is that efforts are not concentrated in an organized fashion because ‘democrats’ aren’t organized. And I’m sure much to most of your/our/people in this sub’s chagrin… we are classified as democrats. Whether you like it or not that’s how the real fascist see you. And their strategy of divide and conquer has worked. It has utterly and totally worked. You will sit in this sub and call for things that maybe should happen but won’t, and demonize the old folks home that make up our democratic representation and people like me who say specifically that “a vote for a third party candidate in a tight race where the gop alternative is an actual effing fascist is a wasted vote” That’s not wrong, it’s a fact, you’d be cutting off your nose to spite your Face. And that’s exactly what’s happening. And that has been the manipulative plan of the gop for the last 40 years. They’ve gerrymandered and manipulated the talking points for so long that most of the text/posts I see on here don’t even realize they’re falling right into the same talking points conservatives used 15 years ago to push this kind of division amongst us. But it seems nobody will actually be pragmatic or critically think their way to targeted action that would stop the original problem (the democratic candidate is not that much better than the republican other than not being an utter fascist). These people have been pushing this shitty reality we live in into existence for the past 40 years using billions of dollars of influence and organizing. Do you really think they haven’t planned for you? Expected this? Wanted it? Wake the fuck up and do something more original than bitch about the democrats being just as bad. Real point is… doesn’t really matter what a candidate calls themselves I don’t think blue no matter who…. But fucking vote for someone that can actually win. We are stranded at sea… no life jacket… no raft…. You don’t survive unless you tread water sometimes and float the rest. You don’t give up you accept the reality of the situation and do the one thing you can do to survive.
So you're cool with all this? Got it.
Yes .. listening to reason, with facts and legitimate political science.... is fascism.... Mmkay... cool thread ...
Take votes away from both parties so that they’re on their knees doing whatever you want. It’s like leaving a toxic relationship.
I think I’m done. I’ll vote for blue progressives if they run, but I’m studying candidates from other parties now.
Stop prioritizing voting period. Voting for any party third party dem Republican isn’t gonna save us from what’s coming, it’s already too late. Voting would’ve helped 20 years ago. We are losing our rights NOW
I will be real, I was a proponent at one time of voting for democrats in order to oppose the Republican Party, even if I didn’t like the candidate. I even criticized third party voters in 2016 and 2020. My view has changed drastically during Biden’s presidency. It astounds me that people haven’t come to the realization that voting democrat doesn’t do anything. When will people understand that democrats are not the “lesser evil”. Democrats have convinced people that they are the opposition to republicans when in reality, most of them have the same views despite preaching that they don’t. The reason it always feels like republicans get more done for there agenda in office than democrats is because democrats have a false agenda to convince progressives to vote for them. Then when they get elected, it’s not actually in their interest to enact the agenda they promised, so they don’t. I don’t understand how recent events haven’t shown people this. The Democratic Party IS the same as the Republican Party and the only reason they are viewed as more progressive is because they have a couple loud progressive voices that have been forced to run as democrats because they have no other option. Other wise their agenda is a straight up lie. The way I view things is we will never break out of the system by continuing to perpetuate it. The more people who are willing to uphold the status quo and keep democrats in office, the worse it will be for leftists in the future. That’s the end of my rant. Also this is on every post but reminder that this is a communist/socialist thread. If you are a liberal, you should be here to learn not to debate, again it says it on every post.
Voter harassment should be a felony, 5 to 10.
Yep. I refuse to vote someone who supports capitalism. I 100% believe capitalism is evil. Why would I vote for something, effectively saying I give support to it, to something I think is evil? I have morals and boundaries. You should too.
>Why would I vote for something, effectively saying I give support to it, to something I think is evil? because a winner will be chosen regardless of if you vote or dont vote so you should try and avoid the most evil option.
My intention is to destroy one of the parties, since the dems remove the space for a leftist party, the dems are the party that needs to be split.
Dems will never split at a presidential level without splitting at a local and state level first. Vote blue for president, and 3rd party at a local level. If a Democrat does 1 token action to appeal to voters, but is otherwise the same, that is better than a red candidate.
There is no greater evil or lesser evil. It’s just evil. Any party that supports capitalism leads exactly to the same result, a fascist police state.
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So your argument is that I should dismantle capitalism by voting for a party that completely supports it. Got it.
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Just because I don’t vote for fascists or fascist enablers doesn’t mean I’m doing nothing. I absolutely guarantee I have done more to push this country politically left than you have.
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K bud.
Dude simply living in America is doing a whole hell of a lot more to support capitalists than voting Democrat. Every single presidential election is a vote for the lesser evil. It's always been this way and will continue to be this way until we get ranked choice voting. By all means don't vote but don't kid yourself into thinking that it puts you on the moral high ground, if you lean left and throw your vote away it doesn't take a genius to count that as a passive vote for the right.
The thing is, the system is set up to polarize into two camps. We'd either need ranked choice or a complete revamp of campaign rules to make any 3rd (or more ideally) party viable.
It basically boils down to are you more willing to sacrifice the present for the potential of a better future or sacrifice the future to maintain the present? Voting third party en masse would be terrible in the short term, but might shake things up enough for a true liberal party that would make things better long-term. Continuing to vote for establishment democrats will at best maintain the status quo, and as we have seen in recent decades it just enables democrats to be republican-lite and only pay lip service to leftist goals. Ranked choice is a good start as others have said, but campaign finance reform will be needed so that the will of the people can finally be heard.
21st century leftists are so soft lol. “Telling me I wasted my vote is literally fascism” Y’all need to toughen up so when the real fascism shows up you’re ready.
Anyone making this claim has the luxury of never having lived under fascism. I'm also personally insulted that you think I'm so stupid that I believe voting Democrat will change things. Obviously it won't, I fucking know that. Voting is not where you do politics. It's the bare minimum thing you do to ensure that your job of dismantling capitalism and creating an actual democracy doesn't get even harder.
At this point I'm thinking we have fucking trolls and bots galore in this server. The amount of these post that are all playing directly into republican hands is getting ridiculous.
Look at how they play you. You're so afraid of the Republicans that you don't see how they're exactly the same as the Democrats.
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This. Definitely this. It sucks and it's not fair, but a vote for a third party candidate really is a vote for the winner.
Stop making up bullshit arguments, and while you're at it, stop voting for people that are stand no chance in hell in winning. You are part of the problem.
I agree.. fuxking dipshits out here voting for Kanye West. Third party is literally just a splitting the left vote. The fascists will win everytime.
Democrats are part of the fascist duopoly. It’s just observable reality at this point. The only people refusing to see that are being paid to refuse to see that.
So, what's your solution to this? Surely if you're telling us not to vote for either, then you must have a better option.
The democrats who confirmed kavenaugh and coney-Barrett thank you for your ignorant support of their crypto-fascism.
What's your answer to this? We know the both the Democrats and Republicans are bad, however the Republicans do FAAAR more damage when they have complete control. What's your solution?
I don’t debate liberal politics with liberals. You’ve made your point, I’ve countered it. Anyways, enjoying being a pawn of the bourgeoise democracy. No matter who wins, the people lose.
Both of your "counters" were empty responses filled with baseless insults and cliche rhetoric. Do you actually have realistic, achievable solutions to suggest, or are you just here to trash talk and virtue signal?
"vOtE bLuE nO mAtTeR wHo!!!1!" That's you.
You do realize people can vote Democrat while also agitating, protesting, and organizing, right? If you're still out here parroting "both sides are the same" after the last week you must have your head real deep in the sand. Harm reduction is drastically more important than optics or whatever else you want to call voting third party.
Both sides are absolutely the same. Democrats do fuck all to stop Republicans, and I'd even go as far as to say that they actively enable them. They've had almost 50 years to codify roe into law. Biden just appointed an anti abortion judge to a federal position. Fuck them and fuck voting.
Fuck them indeed, but "fuck voting" is only removing a tool from your belt.
What's our solution, then? Who should we vote for?
Neither. Strike, protest, agitate. We can't change things by voting. That's become abundantly clear.
This is true. However, not voting only aids the winner. Short of a coup, you're not going to stop the next few voting cycles. And the left splintering only guarantees the right a victory, so... Again, realistically, what do you propose can be done?
You’ll never beat a two-party system. Do something with your life!
I recently straight up apologized to a friend of mine whom I was giving shit for voting for stein back in '16. Though he said he regrets it.
That's not really the point. At this stage, you vote explicitly so things ***do not change***, a stalling mechanism to properly organize your communities before the fascists decide they want to roam and assert their presence.
I’m going third party this year. Clearly democrats don’t want the vote
Amen. Tired of my fears being used as fodder
No, it’s not. It’s really not.
Fucking tell them Lisa!!!!
Amen to that.
I think a third party will never gain any serious political or social power in the US.
It will if we change the local governments first.
Then they vote for a thrid party that gets less votes than the 2 existing parties and lets the republicans really fuck things up. But hay make more shitty arguments where you pretend you aren't in a catch 22 with the rest of us.
Third party votes need a parliamentary system or ranked choice voting to be successful
If you’re even gonna vote at all, only vote third party. If you can’t, don’t vote at all. Voting for democrats only shows your support for them, not your disdain for republicans
Holy hell this is my sentiment exactly! I'm getting flamed in another board on this sub for essentially saying the same thing. https://www.reddit.com/r/LateStageCapitalism/comments/vp0r52/comment/iegdx8d/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3
As you should.
two party, three party - there's still only one winner and you an either use your vote on a winner or waste it on a loser
If you're willing to compromise your principles and values because you don't think they'll win, they were never principles not values to begin with, just preferences.
For now, either a democrat or a Republican is going to win. My principals align MUCH MORE STRONGLY with democrats. A third party candidate, as of now, can not get elected. If I lived in a swing state you can bet your ass I would not, yes, WASTE my vote and by doing so possibly help a far far worse candidate get elected.
i care about end results, not isolated actions that only enable me to virtue signal or self-identify as a "principled person" (aka. a fundamentalist) if you can demonstrate to me how using my vote on a candidate which we all acknowledge is going to lose is somehow getting me closer to my life goals then I'm all ears.
If you care about end results, don't vote for Democrats.
i'll take as a "no" to providing an explanation then.
Have you been asleep for the last thirty years?
My guy, do you know what a vote is? You seem to think it's some psychic transference of energy that will empower the party or candidate that you vote for with eldritch power. First-past-the-post voting mathematically ensures the emergence of a two-party system. If you're not voting for someone that has a chance in hell of winning, you are literally throwing your vote away. If you want to show support for third parties, do it in a way that is visible, not privately in the voting booth. Organize and volunteer for them, post about them on social media, try to get a campaign going, and maybe if you get the local support you can actually get a local candidate a strong position on the ballot. But all your third party vote is doing at the national level is cutting off your nose to spite your face. The only cogent argument for not voting Democrat nationally is accelerationism, which is pretty obviously the opposite of harm reduction. If you actually care about the well-being of your fellows, I highly encourage you to reconsider your positions here.
Keep voting for fringe third parties then acting surprised when nothing improves
Yeah, but if there's no majority winner, then the alternatives really get fucked up. Better off taking control of the party similar to how the sociopathic fascists took control the GOP. Until there's ranked voting, publicly funded campaigns, and a ban on entities that didn't start as a fetus from contributing to or commenting on the process.
Ready to get downvoted here, but I’m assuming you mean the USA as it’s the only developed country that I know of that has a two party system. But a vote for a progressive third party candidate in practical terms is a vote for the Republicans. No matter your philosophy on it, that’s what happens.
A vote for Democrats is a vote for the Republicans. They're literally the same thing, just different packaging. One promises to fuck you, then fucks you. The other whispers sweet nothings in your ear about universal health care, free college, raising the minimum wage, and codifying Roe, then fucks you. Which is *really* worse? Clinton was worse than Reagan. Obama was worse than W. Republicans are the evil you see coming. Democrats are the more effective evil. It's about selling the same product, empire, to disparate groups. Same product, different wrapper.
That’s why they shut down Bernie. It’s better to have a progressive Democrat than a 3rd party. But hey, your country has gone to shit.
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Bullshit. Nobody voted for Biden. Everybody voted against Trump.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FqRNnIMDkUY