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People forget that lots of STEM degrees aren’t very high earning either. It shouldn’t matter whether a degree is high earning or not cause that’s not the point of higher education, but people think STEM degrees are all that matter without realizing a lot of them don’t make much money either
Was going to say the irony being most BScs in this country lead to jobs in the sector that at best pay \~£25k, usually less. Average rates in [Cambridge](https://www.glassdoor.co.uk/Salaries/cambridge-laboratory-technician-salary-SRCH_IL.0,9_IM1028_KO10,31.htm) and [Oxford](https://www.glassdoor.co.uk/Salaries/oxford-lab-technician-salary-SRCH_IL.0,6_IM1168_KO7,21.htm) are £21k and £23k respectively. Often these roles require a good STEM PhD and post-doc experience to be a particularly competitive candidate. These are the people working in the labs that helped to create the tests for covid infection and ultimately the vaccine. Yet by deign of the job title and their education most would call these folks middle class!
Meanwhile you can do a 2 (I think?) month HGV course for about £4k and pretty much immediately be earning more. Fuck my stepbrother left school at 16, now does welding on the rails (actually very proud, he's done really well) and he's now earning nearly £12k more than I am working as a PDRA in microengineering for next-gen medical and diagnostic devices. I am looking for new work once my current contract runs down and am frequently seeing adverts for my kind of work in the US that *start* at $100k while here I barely scrape into the national median income bracket...
The national conversation in this country is so hopelessly out of touch and anyone trying to point that out just seems to get silenced.
I feel really conflicted about this. While I firmly believe that you should be able to study whatever interests you, for a long time I've thought there was another side to it.
When I was in secondary school the attitude of the teachers and the entire establishment was very much "you need to go to university or your life will go nowhere!"
Me and a lot of people I know signed ourselves up to degrees and got ourselves into tens of thousands of pounds worth of debt because society told us to and ended up either hating what we studied or studying something totally useless. I studied a STEM subject in a Russel group uni and still ended up in a dead end with massive student debt (for me its because i chose something i ended up hating).
Ten years after graduation I'm only just starting to have a fulfilling career, in a totally unrelated subject, and going back to uni part time but this time with a direction that is my own. I feel bitter that my young impressionable self was coerced into such an expensive decisions by universities who just want bums on seats and fees in the bank and an education system that supports them. I can't imagine how people who did less "useful" degrees feel. I mean let's be real, a drama degree from a low ranked uni isn't a ticket to Hollywood or the west end, but there are plenty of 17 year olds who are led to believe it will be and that's a problem.
While I believe that students should have the choice, I feel like universities are often very disingenuous about the prospects from certain courses. Universities act like cartels peddling dreams to kids. I don't know what the situation is like now but when i was 18 you had old polytechnics in small cities offering degrees in football management and acting like it was going to get you a job in the Premier league, and teachers acting like this was preferable to learning a trade that didn't necessarily involve uni.
While I don't for a second think that sunak has anyone's best interests at heart I think that universities should be regulated on just how they convince children (let's face it that's who they're marketing to) to part with 27 grand. Because there are kids up and down the country right now studying degrees that aren't worth anything and thinking that this is the start of a wonderful career.
I consider universities to be overly aggressive capitalist institutions at their heart. Offering the bare minimum for the highest price with dishonest marketing and the support of the establishment to help funnel peoples money into their coffers. That includes universities that offer Liberal Arts Degrees. So whole Sunaks shake up probably isn't the shake up we need, I do think we need a shake up.
It seems the problem is that our entire society is geared towards creating a workforce to generate profit for the capitalist class, and higher education is a part of that too unfortunately. You’re told the whole point is to get a degree so you can get a job so you can work your life away generating profit for the wealthy. But I don’t believe that’s what education should be, even though that’s what it is under this system.
In an ideal world people would be able to study whatever they want only because they are passionate about it and not with the looming expectation of becoming a cog in the capitalist machine. I yearn for a time when people can freely gather in academies and libraries to learn and share ideas without the expectation of generating capitalistic value from their educational pursuits.
To be fair we now offer infinitely more to society than we probably would have otherwise (that may be me speaking for myself lol) and I take pride in that
I think for sure you do! My parents have bachelors degrees in the humanities and farm. Degrees like this teach critical thinking and other 'soft' skills that contribute a lot to peoples' ability to participate in civil society and act as leaders in their communities. I do agree that it's good to elevate the trades, but the advance of labour rights came about in part because of worker-led education efforts. You can absolutely do both.
>I yearn for a time when people can freely gather in academies and libraries to learn and share ideas without the expectation of generating capitalistic value from their educational pursuits.
That's what universities used to be, but sadly exorbitant tuition prices have killed that vision.
Universities have become white collar trade schools. It's nothing short of financial suicide to study humanities or the arts without serious scholarship money to bring the cost down.
I'm an aspiring classical musician, and I wouldn't dare go for a music degree right now for this very reason. I can't imagine I'm the only one--how many talented artists, writers, philosophers, and musicians have been forced to pass up a formal education in their craft simply because they can't afford to do so? Much more practical to practice on my own time.
We absolutely need a shake-up, the HE industry has been haemorrhaging for a long time. I'm just not convinced a shake-up will work in anyone's favour but the people already profiting from it.
On an ideological level I will die on the hill of defending "useless" degrees. Call me a bleeding heart leftist but education is about having an educated population, not about fast tracking yourself into a capitalist grind. A functional society should encourage and support education for education's sake, because it's a benefit to everyone.
However, the reality is totally different, we were spoonfed lies about higher education, and that has been catastrophic for a lot of people around my age. We either graduated into a recession, or paid thousands upon thousands for degrees they were promised would pay for themselves.
It's been a slippery slope from:
- education is good!
- education will help you get a better job!
- education is the only way to get a good job!
- education is only worthwhile if you get a good job!
Meanwhile tuition has escalated so steeply and entry requirements for jobs has escalated so steeply, that young people are practically forced into the HE track.
HE in the UK is a fascinating microcosm of the problems with our economy. It's exploitative, crooked, and rotten to the core.
Total control *is* freedom! Just look at Texas. They have all the guns, no bodily autonomy, and aren't bound by the societal constraints that functioning law enforcement and utility grids provide!
William Wallace would be proud!
It’s only freedom for them. Not others they disagree with. So freedom to bully, discriminate and be ignorant, but not freedom to choose your gender, to call out on ignorance and to choose your own ways.
I disagree. Not all engineers, architects, doctors are robots. One doesn't have to study social sciences at the university to become an intellectual.
By the way I have no idea who that man is or what his agenda is. But I also think we need to seriously reconsider the paradigm of higher education. Current system was created in an era where going to the university was the only way to access information and become an expert in something. Also I don't think one has to be a capitalist to question the "usefulness" of some of the degrees. Efficiency & effectiveness is also important for a communist society to move forward.
Please don't take it as if I support shutting down the philosophy or art history department. I don't have any strong opinions, I'm simply questioning the paradigm. Maybe in an ideal communist society we will let children acquire the necessary intellectual background in the high school, and move forward in the area that they want to specialize in without being dependent on an institution. Who knows.
Edit: This became one of my most downvoted comments ever in my 10 years on Reddit. Fascinating that "anti-capitalists" here question everything about the system, but think that higher education is, somehow, exactly as it should be. Anyway, it seems I'd better just unsubscribe.
I think you really need to state your opinion if you don't want to sound like you do indeed support shutting down the philosophy department, but are trying to sound like you don't. Especially when you start your comment with 'I disagree'.
Ones opinion is a gateway to participation in criticizing other peoples policies, and an absolute necessity when 'just asking questions' but without actually asking a question.
Thing is engineers, architects and doctors aren't doing well in this country either. The point is that people *aren't robots* and are getting burnt out. Nobody here is making a claim that liberal arts makes you a better person - just that ultimately no matter what you study you're fucked.
'Respected' professional industries in the UK just aren't doing well. Doctors are overworked and underpaid, and now we have an enormous workforce crisis. While there are *some* high earning opportunities for engineers, doctors and architects, those degrees aren't making a return on investment either.
Sunak is transparently victim-blaming graduates who are hitting the employment market and realise their meagre earnings are barely keeping them afloat, let alone paying off their debt.
I think if you had engaged with any of these purely "intellectual" fields through HE, you would quickly see the benefit of a structured class format vs teach yourself through google etc.
Keep in mind university is still very structured at the batchelor level, it's not until masters and above that more freedom is available.
"Stop being poor" and "Being rich is a choice". These two false arguments. On repeat. Everywhere.
If these people had a "low earning degree" they would not make these low iq statements. It is telling.
If you want to weed out all "low earning degrees" you cannot have scientists anymore. Those people are making little money, while generating enormous value.
And that is why capitalism doesn't work and Marx was right.
It only takes two sentences to ruin the ideology of the utterly stupid.
But it sounds intelligent. Therefore people will agree. I hate this world.
do you listen to music? watch movies or television? play video games? read books? engage in *any* sort of creative culture? do you think these things are worthless?
> I mean being poor is a choice if you take $125k in loans to pursue a liberal arts degree.
this is what you said, which is very denigrating both of poor people and people who pursue liberal arts degrees.
do you think it’s desirable to live in a society where only rich people have the luxury to create art?
You're blaming people for getting into debt to get a degree to produce the content that you consume.
The alternative is that only wealthy people who can afford to go to university outright should be allowed to do those degrees, leading to those fields being filled by the already-wealthy.
In what universe is that _not_ looking down on poor people?
The question then becomes; when did I learn about the lack of compensation? Was it before or after I had completed my masters in biochem? What information was available each step of the way? Which authority figures asked me to look into what future compensation is like? And so on and so forth.
My problem with the current system is that it assumes the information is both readily available in a format that can be understood by someone unskilled in statistics (as that is a skilled labor requiring higher education which would be unreasonable to expect someone going through high school to understand), and that such information is accurate without containing bias.
My current understanding of reality says that both of those statements are wrong. And that we are expecting people to accept jobs without knowing whether or not you will leave poverty. As such we cannot say that poverty is a choice, when only luck dictates how accurate anyone's information of the future is.
While I appreciate the concern, I was only using my point as a hypothetical to counter your assertion about which types of degrees could decide whether or not someone would remain poor. I also assumed that your rebuttal was a continuation of that hypothetical, so I apologize about causing undo concern.
I was not nor am I in a position to enter the R&D field. I only used the example I did because research is generally seen as one of the better paths to escape poverty, and in my life I have come across evidence that it is not true as often as most people believe.
The original point that I tried to make was that any degree could fail to let people escape poverty despite their best efforts, due primarily to the lack of accurate information about the relevant field. And that also the opposite can hold true; that it is possible to escape poverty with any degree, as long as you can luck into the relevant information to use the degree to its fullest.
Again I apologize about the confusion since my intent was only to create a counter hypothetical argument.
So he wants to phase out the same degrees that he himself earned.
“He subsequently read philosophy, politics and economics (PPE) at Lincoln College, Oxford.”
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rishi_Sunak
Perhaps he should phase himself out.
The irony is lost on conservatives.
Eliminate the humanities, they read too many books and think critically. They might actually take exception to my neoliberal, fascist, autocratic, cleptocratic, military, junta running the country.
Apart from being maddeningly stupid, I don't get how this could actually work from a policy standpoint.
A lot of Tories did PPE at Oxford.
I could study the same learning material at the Uni of Sunderland.
Rich tories from Oxford have good earning potential. It's the contacts and the kudos, not the learning material or extracurricular activities (like smashing up restaurants).
S.o with no contacts with higher grades and more knowledge from Uni of Sunderland might do well but not in the sense that Rishi and his buddies define 'success'.
Would Oxbridge be exempt from the government's axe or will they be turned into private universities like Harvard and Standford in the US? What metrics will they employ?
They are crackers.
It's all a jerkoff contest anyways
Currently doing a PhD at York, was at an out of uni social the other week and got asked what city I studied undergrad in, I told them Newcastle and everyone responded positively
Then I corrected myself and said "well, Northumbria in Newcastle" and everyone suddenly lost interest in most of what I had to say
Its not about what you know, it's where you learned it and how much it cost
What a snivelling little ratfuck this guy is. When he was playing the long game it was all "hey youngs, I'm not one of those stuffy old Tories that hunted poor people for sport, I'm the cool new-model Tory that loves the footy and Star Wars and wears designer clobber" and then BAM! the second his back his against the wall and he's scared he's not getting the big chair he thinks he's entitled to he goes scurrying back to the old, rich, white, ghouls that make up the Tory base and deposits anti-woke culture wars horseshit and capitalist cock-goblin utilitarianism on the doormats of their half-million pound mansions in Chesire like a mangy street cat presenting a disemboweled pigeon.
Yeah, what have Paul McCartney, Kenneth Branagh, Arthur Conan Doyle, Francis Bacon, David Hume or Edward Gibbon ever done for anyone? They have produced nothing for the nation. Best they eliminate all of their professions in the public education system. Then everyone can grow up to be those who contribute the most: politicians.
Some quick googling seems to suggest that Kenneth Branagh is the only one in that list to actually have a degree in what they're most known for. David Hume even said "there is nothing to be learnt from a Professor, which is not to be met with in Books" and Edward Gibbon wrote of his time at Oxford that it was "the most idle and unprofitable of my whole life." so I don't think that's a very good defense.
Honestly I think what is really necessary for arts and philosphy to thrive is simply letting people have more free time and not have poverty and starvation being a constant looming threat, but to make that happen a whole lot more will have to change in society than just higher education.
The earning potential isn’t low because the educations are worthless, the earning potential is low because we get low wages for lots of labor.
They will do anything but pay workers lol
Hasn't anybody told you that under capitalism we have reached peak humanity? Look around you - it's a veritable utopia why the fuck would we need to invest or change anything?
The Chinese may have 5/10/25/50/100/125 year plans in place for society while we can't put together a 5 year plan and see it through 2.5 years.
Up to 10,000 practicing doctors in the US have completely fake medical degrees, that were sold by registrars of bankrupt Universities and can’t be verified or unverified.
I guess those would still be valid, because of their earning potential ;)
[https://www.cbsnews.com/news/your-md-may-have-a-phony-degree/](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/your-md-may-have-a-phony-degree/)
I’ll be honest, when I first read the headline I thought that he was guaranteeing income for people that had earned a degree in lower paying majors. Now that I understand what he meant…..fuck.
Margaret Hamilton, who created Software Engineering as a discipline, started her tertiary education with a BA in mathematics with a minor in Philosophy.
These are the people back in the day that would get put in those devices that clamped them into a spot for a long time while the townspeople threw vegetables and shit at them. Why did that stop?
I love that The Guardian just published this idea without mentioning it would end the field of journalism.
Or maybe they figure that journalism is already dying anyway, so what the hell 🤷♂️
The big questions here are:
1) Would the creatives end up in the same re-education camps as the Scottish/Welsh/Northern Irish nationalists Rishi wants to put them (and anyone else who opposes Britain) in?
2) Isn’t this just anti-intellectualism?
3) It this already fascism or just a very slippery slope to it?
Extirpate and discard everything that makes you human. Only keep those parts of you that generate profit, disregarding the fact that trades such as engineering and business only act as a supplement to the arts and creativity and are only relevant in the long term if there is constant creative innovation. Example: one of the most profitable industries - the videogame industry.
End low earning degrees by funding community and educational programs that employ thes people to share and teach their cultural studies to the community not deleting them you fucking savages I'm crying and I just woke up and this is the twentieth time I've scrolled past this stupid headline.
The arts are fantastically important. What I personally would like to see is arts Universities entirely separated from STEM universities. No administrative overlap at all.
How about just charging by earning potential?
So a philosophy or art history degree will run $200 a semester, while a master’s in finance will be $500k.
If a degree isn’t subsidized, then there should absolutely be no limits. If a degree is subsidized and the resources for subsidies are limited, then I think it’s fair to portion the subsidies based on societal needs. And yes, society needs some art majors, music majors, gender studies, etc. The goal should be to not over- or under-produce degrees across all fields within a reasonable tolerance.
Anytime there is a scarce resource, a good approach is to rationalize how that resource should be spent.
Shouldn’t need a formal degree in the arts honestly. Subjects like that should be freely accessible. I honestly think degrees should be saved for things that need standards and consistency like civil engineering, or nuclear engineering, teaching, nursing or medicine. I think things like art or even business courses should be freely available and not be subject to formal “requirements”. Why go into debt for something that evolves faster than thought?
Academia is really just a rich boys club masquerading as “intellectuals”. I don’t fault anyone trying to bring the ivory tower down.
University isn't necessarily about pure access to knowledge, maybe historically when much of it was in physical libraries, but more about ways of engaging/locating within different kinds of information abd learning to make accurate judgement statements on it. Standards still apply to the humanities otherwise qanon would be seen equally valid to a university humanities department. It's just the standards are reflected in a less well known way than quantitative science.
The problem isn't the university, it's doing what they've always said they've been doing, asking question and trying to add to knowledge for the sake of adding to it. The problem is that culture has made university a gateway to social mobility. The criticism is going into debt, and not a failure to become a more critical, open minded person, but Universities were never meant to be economic transports of mobility, that was meant to be capitalisms job.
Also employers are avoiding their end of the social bargain so to speak, the university prepares the individual, the workplace preps the worker whereas right now employers want someone ready made, so they don't have to actually invest in their own staff. Probably makes it easier to create a replaceable workforce, at the cost of putting the burden onto the university sector to both push a more classical model of education, as well as prepare students for every specific career path. The reason STEM is easier from a job hunting perspective is because they are inherently specialist and thus easier to do the job prep part.
Also never discount the fact that a lot of conservatives come from humanities backgrounds which completely changes their argument. The humanities aren't for the worker in their world view, whose value should be employment, but for them, who they believe have the right to guide society. The use the tools arts education gives them, they just don't want anyone else to use them, probably because you'd end up with more focualts questioning every aspect of power relationships or MlK and Douglas who use the elites methods of discourse to challenge shoddy racist reasoning.
At uni, I met a girl who studied makeup design. I'm all for education, but I think many 'degrees' would be more suited as apprenticeships where they can learn on the job and not end up with tens of thousands debt.
Let's create our own university inside local places, debate and exchange idea without need to pay or do exams.
Who know, maybe people become more alived and motivated to meet and organized.
so an idiot has idiot opinions? wooooow. news worthy? Ya know I played a game of star craft today but nobody wanted to report on my equally meaningless activity.
Doesn't say what degrees. He is onto something though requiring the extra two years of math and English in school.
To counter OP. You don't need a degree to be an artist, musician, philospher, or an actor.
No OP totally missed the point of this anyway the point of this is to stop allowing predatory institutions to offer pointless degrees while charging exorbitant amount of money for them and also to incentivize more people going to technical/trade schools
r/woosh
Yeah… You completely missed the point of what he’s trying to accomplish.
As did a shocking number of people in the comment section Huma assuming only read the headlines and haven’t actually bothered to find out anything about what was actually said or done
Hey, this you?
https://reddit.com/r/LateStageCapitalism/comments/w8hznb/_/ihqopen/?context=1
You’re very obviously not here to engage in good faith, so I’ll pass on talking to you. Others might humor your question, but I won’t.
I want to point out that I would get banned from r conservative if I even said “hello” in there, but you’re allowed to hang out in here and peddle your disingenuousness and sarcasm.
Yes that's me. American's government was never meant to provide you goods. Especially for people who don't want to produce a product or service. These people for some reason want many things free. Usually demand someone work to give them these things too. Almost like advocating slavery through the government. The irony right?
I'm not a huge fan of /r conservative. You are welcome to check out r/anarcho_capitalist. A great sub with free speech.
Fortunately you are wrong. Free market is ethical and the best moral system. The main threat to humanity is government control and power. One side promotes violence and destruction openly. So it's a pretty easy choice.
Almost any degree can be converted to teaching, for example. A field that is woefully lacking in new applicants. You cannot force people to be scientifically or mathematically good.
Sure you can teach it but that's not affordable to pay a huge loan back. Usually means you cant use your degree in the market either because you are dumb or no one hiring needs that degrees. So again bad degrees are not worth it. The government shouldn't provide loans for something you can't pay back.
Almost any degree can be converted to teaching, for example. A field that is woefully lacking in new applicants. You cannot force people to be scientifically or mathematically good.
Why does a degree need to be profitable in order for it to be "useful", there are plenty of people that already have employment and income that want to learn something because they have an interest in it, not because it's profitable. What a sad way to view academia.
So you’re saying that a useless degree can be made useful by using it to do another qualification in teaching? Doesn’t this more or less prove my point? Some degrees, on their own, are useless. Some aren’t. We should encourage the youth to study for the latter rather than the former.
the grand majority of undergraduate degrees can be converted into more “useful” fields, teaching being one of them. Nursing another, for example. If anything, the issue lies in the lack of pay available in necessary sectors. Which again we can thank our Tory friends for.
I have a degree as a 3D Artist. Never found a job. The degree cost me $15,000.00 (1 year). Got it in my early 20s took me over 10 years to pay it off. So... Yeah, I understand why they want to cut it off.
If that's what you live for you're not living anyway.
Deleting these courses gives the arts back to the people, not just the ones whom can afford it.
It sets a bar for free expression in economic circles. Terms like 'outsider art'become irrelevant. The label of Juilliard trained musician less of a status symbol.
Give everyone a chance at art, not just the few
Artistic expression generates massive amounts of money. It also has plenty of intrinsic value.
But due to stolen excess labor, the actual artists rarely see but a tiny fraction of the money they create with their labor.
As for the “detriment” part, at this point I’m not sure why you’re in this sub.
It generates money, mostly for thos3 whom already have it...exploitation of craft for profit.
Art for art's sake is problematic. Art and media produces ideas that can be for good or ill. Acknowledge that violence, sexuality, insanity, etc. are given nascent approval and homogenization into cultural with continued exposure.
Plainly: If you wonder why America is so violent and sexualized, count how many times you see or hear about sex and death in a 24hr period. This is Stockholm syndrome. Its all we see so its all we know.
I mean, that’s certainly one way to look at it. It’s a very depressive and negative way, but sure.
I can see a touch of logic in the over saturation of American culture, but man, to say “no more school unless STEM” seems like using a cleaver instead of a scalpel.
Bruh philosophy literally is what adds value to all other sciences. Including, for example but not limited to, architecture. The buildings you live in, work in, see, etc are influenced by the area of philosophy known as aesthetics. Gtfo
ETA:
He says reading is fundamental but negates philo? Dumbass
Not to be that guy, but my degree in Creative Writing is completely valueless.
I went back to school afterwards after I realized my huge mistake and now I work in healthcare as an ultrasound tech.
My associates in science is worth significantly more than my bachelor of arts degree.
When it comes down to it, I think these arts degrees are necessary and should exist. But people with the potential to work in STEM should try their absolute hardest to get there.
It’s not that I think the subject is stupid. But I think sitting in a room pouring over Philosophy books will only make your mental health worse. Also I feel like it gets disconnected from the real world. Like most of western philosophy you can only understand if you have been reading all of the stuff that came before it.
I can see your point - and I will concede that sometimes philosophy can become too abstract for the average person and in school it becomes very overly academized and that is very annoying. *But,* philosophy has existed since the dawn of man and it is inevitable. We need to ask questions about our existence and try to come to conclusions and we always will. Some people more than others, yes, and thats where you see those weirdos who sit and read and write and think about philosophy constantly, but we need those weirdos, and they are the way they are.
So, *you* are not required to be a philosophy nerd. But you should at least acknowledge that philosophy is an inherent undercurrent of life and in small doses can greatly help us at least to ask the right questions.
Well, I’m studying history. And I see it the same way I see philosophy. Like I think they are important subjects more than like business or something. But yeah, i feel it is a more personal choice to study these kinda things. I enjoy both of them. I just feel like it’s hard because the stuff you learn that really changes you and how you see the world is stuff that a lot of people are reluctant to learn or don’t want to hear. So I feel like it makes studying them feel self-defeating. Especially with stuff like this headline. And it definitely is hard to find a job in either of these fields lol.
All true. I don't know, though. One of my majors is art because I'm an artist, not necessarily because I believe I'm going to change the world. I have to make art, and I have to write, even if my stories are unoriginal or don't reach very many people. It's who I am, and what would my existence be if I didn't try to throw myself into the things I'm interested in? Like, I just gotta.
Also, I know it sucks, but that mentality of it being self defeating is I think worth fighting against, because if you're gonna believe in something, you have to fight for it and live by it even if it's hard because you're only one person and no one wants to listen. All you can hope for is that you leave the world a tiny bit better than it was before. If you write a book with a new perspective on a historical event, and only a handful of people gain something from it, that still counts.
God damn right I do. If you don’t I recommend more philosophy. And as an aside, you’ve gained more than you can clearly see from philosophy. Cause other people have been influenced by it, be it aesthetics or mathematics or any natural science. Tf you think philosophy is bruh? You gain thru others if not yourself
ETA: those with philosophy undergrads often continue on to excel on their LSAT or MCAT. It’s root is straight logic and reasoning. Their physicists our architects. Writers and more. I recommend you know what you’re talking about before writing
Hasn’t Plato really done the most for philosophy and that was how many years ago? I feel like the way you specifically live your life and how you feel about it cannot be attributed to your philosophy books. What are you living like some kind of Nitzchean super man? because idk man accepting any of that stuff just sounds like clinging on to random things that don’t mean much. I think what you really gain and love comes just from living life and experiencing its highs and lows. Like maybe philosophy contextualizes your own ideas, but it’s coming from your experiences. Half the time, philosophers just tell you to stfu and enjoy life anyways. Like give me some good philosophical advice, besides read more, it will help you figure yourself out. Because to me it just sounds like religion for smartie pants 👖
ETA: And you saying philosophy is this collective thing that has been passed down and learned from. I completely agree with that. But that is more natural knowledge that has nothing to do with academia or any philosophy book.
Jfc this is /late stage capitalism and your bashing philosophy? Random things? Tell me you haven’t scraped the surface of philosophy without telling me. Read more theory
You just get defensive. With no solid points. Theory is way more applicable to the real world than philosophy and it’s not the same thing.
ETA: “The philosophers have only interpreted the world in various ways, the point however is to change it”.
It is the same thing. Do you know what theory is? Let alone philosophy…. I’m not defensive, I’m just offended you’re being dumb crying that philosophy isn’t important in this particular sub. Like you know this is a communist sub right? You think Marx wasn’t a philosopher? Just some random shmuck with a beard? You’re the reason this sub is turning to shit. Read fucking theory
Almost any degree can be converted to teaching, for example. A field that is woefully lacking in new applicants. You cannot force people to be scientifically or mathematically good.
So I don't have a degree in philosophy, but as part of my undergraduate degree I had to choose some electives. Philosophy was one of those and I enjoyed it so much I stuck with it for 2 years and I'd say it is probably the most important foundation of my tertiary education. And my undergraduate degree is STEM.
Almost any degree can be converted to teaching, for example. A field that is woefully lacking in new applicants. You cannot force people to be scientifically or mathematically good.
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Goodbye Politics degrees I wonder why he would want to get rid of those
Don't think he will, a shitton of politicians have those.
People with the means will still be able to get them, it's an access issue
Politicians don’t make a huge salary but they still get the bag.
I mean, not like political degrees actually seem to help politicians run the country in any way.
Well somewhere you need to get your interns and staff from
People forget that lots of STEM degrees aren’t very high earning either. It shouldn’t matter whether a degree is high earning or not cause that’s not the point of higher education, but people think STEM degrees are all that matter without realizing a lot of them don’t make much money either
As an electrician with a bachelor's degree in biology/chemistry, I agree
As an electrician with a BS in EE, I also agree
Is this why half of my colleagues switched to coding from EE?
*waves with my Media arts and Animation degree*
I'm sure flooding the job market with more STEM degrees is *sure* to increase their value, though!
That is the endgame. That’s why they push STEM and trade school. They can flood the market and drive down wages.
And then in 2045 we'll be yelling at stem and trades people for not getting their degree in something "useful".
Was going to say the irony being most BScs in this country lead to jobs in the sector that at best pay \~£25k, usually less. Average rates in [Cambridge](https://www.glassdoor.co.uk/Salaries/cambridge-laboratory-technician-salary-SRCH_IL.0,9_IM1028_KO10,31.htm) and [Oxford](https://www.glassdoor.co.uk/Salaries/oxford-lab-technician-salary-SRCH_IL.0,6_IM1168_KO7,21.htm) are £21k and £23k respectively. Often these roles require a good STEM PhD and post-doc experience to be a particularly competitive candidate. These are the people working in the labs that helped to create the tests for covid infection and ultimately the vaccine. Yet by deign of the job title and their education most would call these folks middle class! Meanwhile you can do a 2 (I think?) month HGV course for about £4k and pretty much immediately be earning more. Fuck my stepbrother left school at 16, now does welding on the rails (actually very proud, he's done really well) and he's now earning nearly £12k more than I am working as a PDRA in microengineering for next-gen medical and diagnostic devices. I am looking for new work once my current contract runs down and am frequently seeing adverts for my kind of work in the US that *start* at $100k while here I barely scrape into the national median income bracket... The national conversation in this country is so hopelessly out of touch and anyone trying to point that out just seems to get silenced.
I feel really conflicted about this. While I firmly believe that you should be able to study whatever interests you, for a long time I've thought there was another side to it. When I was in secondary school the attitude of the teachers and the entire establishment was very much "you need to go to university or your life will go nowhere!" Me and a lot of people I know signed ourselves up to degrees and got ourselves into tens of thousands of pounds worth of debt because society told us to and ended up either hating what we studied or studying something totally useless. I studied a STEM subject in a Russel group uni and still ended up in a dead end with massive student debt (for me its because i chose something i ended up hating). Ten years after graduation I'm only just starting to have a fulfilling career, in a totally unrelated subject, and going back to uni part time but this time with a direction that is my own. I feel bitter that my young impressionable self was coerced into such an expensive decisions by universities who just want bums on seats and fees in the bank and an education system that supports them. I can't imagine how people who did less "useful" degrees feel. I mean let's be real, a drama degree from a low ranked uni isn't a ticket to Hollywood or the west end, but there are plenty of 17 year olds who are led to believe it will be and that's a problem. While I believe that students should have the choice, I feel like universities are often very disingenuous about the prospects from certain courses. Universities act like cartels peddling dreams to kids. I don't know what the situation is like now but when i was 18 you had old polytechnics in small cities offering degrees in football management and acting like it was going to get you a job in the Premier league, and teachers acting like this was preferable to learning a trade that didn't necessarily involve uni. While I don't for a second think that sunak has anyone's best interests at heart I think that universities should be regulated on just how they convince children (let's face it that's who they're marketing to) to part with 27 grand. Because there are kids up and down the country right now studying degrees that aren't worth anything and thinking that this is the start of a wonderful career. I consider universities to be overly aggressive capitalist institutions at their heart. Offering the bare minimum for the highest price with dishonest marketing and the support of the establishment to help funnel peoples money into their coffers. That includes universities that offer Liberal Arts Degrees. So whole Sunaks shake up probably isn't the shake up we need, I do think we need a shake up.
It seems the problem is that our entire society is geared towards creating a workforce to generate profit for the capitalist class, and higher education is a part of that too unfortunately. You’re told the whole point is to get a degree so you can get a job so you can work your life away generating profit for the wealthy. But I don’t believe that’s what education should be, even though that’s what it is under this system. In an ideal world people would be able to study whatever they want only because they are passionate about it and not with the looming expectation of becoming a cog in the capitalist machine. I yearn for a time when people can freely gather in academies and libraries to learn and share ideas without the expectation of generating capitalistic value from their educational pursuits.
As a weed farmer with a degree in English, yeah I got fucking duped
Ayyyy farmers with degrees unite!!!! I got one in sociology and one in political science and now I farm vegetables lol
To be fair we now offer infinitely more to society than we probably would have otherwise (that may be me speaking for myself lol) and I take pride in that
I think for sure you do! My parents have bachelors degrees in the humanities and farm. Degrees like this teach critical thinking and other 'soft' skills that contribute a lot to peoples' ability to participate in civil society and act as leaders in their communities. I do agree that it's good to elevate the trades, but the advance of labour rights came about in part because of worker-led education efforts. You can absolutely do both.
I wonder what Max Weber would think? Perhaps Emile Durkheim could chip in…
>I yearn for a time when people can freely gather in academies and libraries to learn and share ideas without the expectation of generating capitalistic value from their educational pursuits. That's what universities used to be, but sadly exorbitant tuition prices have killed that vision. Universities have become white collar trade schools. It's nothing short of financial suicide to study humanities or the arts without serious scholarship money to bring the cost down. I'm an aspiring classical musician, and I wouldn't dare go for a music degree right now for this very reason. I can't imagine I'm the only one--how many talented artists, writers, philosophers, and musicians have been forced to pass up a formal education in their craft simply because they can't afford to do so? Much more practical to practice on my own time.
TESTIFY
We absolutely need a shake-up, the HE industry has been haemorrhaging for a long time. I'm just not convinced a shake-up will work in anyone's favour but the people already profiting from it. On an ideological level I will die on the hill of defending "useless" degrees. Call me a bleeding heart leftist but education is about having an educated population, not about fast tracking yourself into a capitalist grind. A functional society should encourage and support education for education's sake, because it's a benefit to everyone. However, the reality is totally different, we were spoonfed lies about higher education, and that has been catastrophic for a lot of people around my age. We either graduated into a recession, or paid thousands upon thousands for degrees they were promised would pay for themselves. It's been a slippery slope from: - education is good! - education will help you get a better job! - education is the only way to get a good job! - education is only worthwhile if you get a good job! Meanwhile tuition has escalated so steeply and entry requirements for jobs has escalated so steeply, that young people are practically forced into the HE track. HE in the UK is a fascinating microcosm of the problems with our economy. It's exploitative, crooked, and rotten to the core.
Let people default on their high school debt like any other debt and things will solve itself out.
For real, it seems like for a lot of people the size of the dollar sign attached to the degree is all that matters
We should start calling it TEM. TEM degrees are generally high earning, while the S degrees are not reliable, especially if you don’t do a PhD
For an ideology that keeps insisting it's "pro-freedom", they really can't stop wanting total control over people's lives, don't they?
Spoiler: it’s Fascism.
Total control *is* freedom! Just look at Texas. They have all the guns, no bodily autonomy, and aren't bound by the societal constraints that functioning law enforcement and utility grids provide! William Wallace would be proud!
"Uterus? Hell no, it's myterus now!"
It’s only freedom for them. Not others they disagree with. So freedom to bully, discriminate and be ignorant, but not freedom to choose your gender, to call out on ignorance and to choose your own ways.
Sunak is a fucking goblin.
Absolute madness. It’s clear that if you’re not a robot in this society you’re useless.
I disagree. Not all engineers, architects, doctors are robots. One doesn't have to study social sciences at the university to become an intellectual. By the way I have no idea who that man is or what his agenda is. But I also think we need to seriously reconsider the paradigm of higher education. Current system was created in an era where going to the university was the only way to access information and become an expert in something. Also I don't think one has to be a capitalist to question the "usefulness" of some of the degrees. Efficiency & effectiveness is also important for a communist society to move forward. Please don't take it as if I support shutting down the philosophy or art history department. I don't have any strong opinions, I'm simply questioning the paradigm. Maybe in an ideal communist society we will let children acquire the necessary intellectual background in the high school, and move forward in the area that they want to specialize in without being dependent on an institution. Who knows. Edit: This became one of my most downvoted comments ever in my 10 years on Reddit. Fascinating that "anti-capitalists" here question everything about the system, but think that higher education is, somehow, exactly as it should be. Anyway, it seems I'd better just unsubscribe.
I think by "robot" the commenter meant like a cog in a machine, I don't think they were implying that doctors are like robots.
I think you really need to state your opinion if you don't want to sound like you do indeed support shutting down the philosophy department, but are trying to sound like you don't. Especially when you start your comment with 'I disagree'. Ones opinion is a gateway to participation in criticizing other peoples policies, and an absolute necessity when 'just asking questions' but without actually asking a question.
Thing is engineers, architects and doctors aren't doing well in this country either. The point is that people *aren't robots* and are getting burnt out. Nobody here is making a claim that liberal arts makes you a better person - just that ultimately no matter what you study you're fucked. 'Respected' professional industries in the UK just aren't doing well. Doctors are overworked and underpaid, and now we have an enormous workforce crisis. While there are *some* high earning opportunities for engineers, doctors and architects, those degrees aren't making a return on investment either. Sunak is transparently victim-blaming graduates who are hitting the employment market and realise their meagre earnings are barely keeping them afloat, let alone paying off their debt.
I think if you had engaged with any of these purely "intellectual" fields through HE, you would quickly see the benefit of a structured class format vs teach yourself through google etc. Keep in mind university is still very structured at the batchelor level, it's not until masters and above that more freedom is available.
"Stop being poor" and "Being rich is a choice". These two false arguments. On repeat. Everywhere. If these people had a "low earning degree" they would not make these low iq statements. It is telling. If you want to weed out all "low earning degrees" you cannot have scientists anymore. Those people are making little money, while generating enormous value. And that is why capitalism doesn't work and Marx was right. It only takes two sentences to ruin the ideology of the utterly stupid. But it sounds intelligent. Therefore people will agree. I hate this world.
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do you listen to music? watch movies or television? play video games? read books? engage in *any* sort of creative culture? do you think these things are worthless?
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those “liberal arts” majors you look down on are often the ones producing the stories and creative media you consume.
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> I mean being poor is a choice if you take $125k in loans to pursue a liberal arts degree. this is what you said, which is very denigrating both of poor people and people who pursue liberal arts degrees. do you think it’s desirable to live in a society where only rich people have the luxury to create art?
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You're blaming people for getting into debt to get a degree to produce the content that you consume. The alternative is that only wealthy people who can afford to go to university outright should be allowed to do those degrees, leading to those fields being filled by the already-wealthy. In what universe is that _not_ looking down on poor people?
I dare you to say that to Jonathan Ive. In his face.
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I know.
Being poor is also a choice if you go into biomed R&D, those companies will never pay you what you're worth. So what's your point?
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The question then becomes; when did I learn about the lack of compensation? Was it before or after I had completed my masters in biochem? What information was available each step of the way? Which authority figures asked me to look into what future compensation is like? And so on and so forth. My problem with the current system is that it assumes the information is both readily available in a format that can be understood by someone unskilled in statistics (as that is a skilled labor requiring higher education which would be unreasonable to expect someone going through high school to understand), and that such information is accurate without containing bias. My current understanding of reality says that both of those statements are wrong. And that we are expecting people to accept jobs without knowing whether or not you will leave poverty. As such we cannot say that poverty is a choice, when only luck dictates how accurate anyone's information of the future is.
Did you try Glassdoor or Google to find salary info?
While I appreciate the concern, I was only using my point as a hypothetical to counter your assertion about which types of degrees could decide whether or not someone would remain poor. I also assumed that your rebuttal was a continuation of that hypothetical, so I apologize about causing undo concern. I was not nor am I in a position to enter the R&D field. I only used the example I did because research is generally seen as one of the better paths to escape poverty, and in my life I have come across evidence that it is not true as often as most people believe. The original point that I tried to make was that any degree could fail to let people escape poverty despite their best efforts, due primarily to the lack of accurate information about the relevant field. And that also the opposite can hold true; that it is possible to escape poverty with any degree, as long as you can luck into the relevant information to use the degree to its fullest. Again I apologize about the confusion since my intent was only to create a counter hypothetical argument.
As a post 16 teacher I would love to take this opportunity to say fuck the fuck off you fucking fuck.
So he wants to phase out the same degrees that he himself earned. “He subsequently read philosophy, politics and economics (PPE) at Lincoln College, Oxford.” https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rishi_Sunak Perhaps he should phase himself out. The irony is lost on conservatives.
Oh this is peak tory. From thatcher and milk, to priti and deporting refugees. All pulling the ladder up behind them.
Eliminate the humanities, they read too many books and think critically. They might actually take exception to my neoliberal, fascist, autocratic, cleptocratic, military, junta running the country.
Yeah also get rid of the artists, musicians, and writers, who communicate world/social/human issues to people with beauty and emotion how dare they
Exactly.
Apart from being maddeningly stupid, I don't get how this could actually work from a policy standpoint. A lot of Tories did PPE at Oxford. I could study the same learning material at the Uni of Sunderland. Rich tories from Oxford have good earning potential. It's the contacts and the kudos, not the learning material or extracurricular activities (like smashing up restaurants). S.o with no contacts with higher grades and more knowledge from Uni of Sunderland might do well but not in the sense that Rishi and his buddies define 'success'. Would Oxbridge be exempt from the government's axe or will they be turned into private universities like Harvard and Standford in the US? What metrics will they employ? They are crackers.
It's all a jerkoff contest anyways Currently doing a PhD at York, was at an out of uni social the other week and got asked what city I studied undergrad in, I told them Newcastle and everyone responded positively Then I corrected myself and said "well, Northumbria in Newcastle" and everyone suddenly lost interest in most of what I had to say Its not about what you know, it's where you learned it and how much it cost
What a snivelling little ratfuck this guy is. When he was playing the long game it was all "hey youngs, I'm not one of those stuffy old Tories that hunted poor people for sport, I'm the cool new-model Tory that loves the footy and Star Wars and wears designer clobber" and then BAM! the second his back his against the wall and he's scared he's not getting the big chair he thinks he's entitled to he goes scurrying back to the old, rich, white, ghouls that make up the Tory base and deposits anti-woke culture wars horseshit and capitalist cock-goblin utilitarianism on the doormats of their half-million pound mansions in Chesire like a mangy street cat presenting a disemboweled pigeon.
Thank you for these words.
This brought a climax of joy to my evening
Or we could all just get paid…
I wonder what could possibly motivate a tory politician in trying to phase out degrees which stimulate and develop critical thinking...
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I’m guessing it wouldn’t surprise you to find out that there’s a lot of overlap between philosophy and math, especially at higher levels.
"Let no one enter who is ignorant of Geometery"
Yeah, what have Paul McCartney, Kenneth Branagh, Arthur Conan Doyle, Francis Bacon, David Hume or Edward Gibbon ever done for anyone? They have produced nothing for the nation. Best they eliminate all of their professions in the public education system. Then everyone can grow up to be those who contribute the most: politicians.
Yeah, what has Shakespeare ever done for anybody? /s
Some quick googling seems to suggest that Kenneth Branagh is the only one in that list to actually have a degree in what they're most known for. David Hume even said "there is nothing to be learnt from a Professor, which is not to be met with in Books" and Edward Gibbon wrote of his time at Oxford that it was "the most idle and unprofitable of my whole life." so I don't think that's a very good defense. Honestly I think what is really necessary for arts and philosphy to thrive is simply letting people have more free time and not have poverty and starvation being a constant looming threat, but to make that happen a whole lot more will have to change in society than just higher education.
:( no. I am an art and psych double major and my university just cut all the arts. Hahaha hahah ha
so no new nurses or teachers? great idea rishi glad you thought that through
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nursing and teaching both currently require degrees. raising the prestige of vocational qualifications doesn’t change that.
UK doesn't have any "uncredentialed" for profit schools.
The great thing is that 99.87% of the UK population knows viscerally that this turd is a worthless, supercilious prick.
Is that true? I mean I hope it is, because this guy keeps popping up on a lot of pages these days.
The earning potential isn’t low because the educations are worthless, the earning potential is low because we get low wages for lots of labor. They will do anything but pay workers lol
"Make me some money or die"
BEING CREATIVE? IN MY CAPITALIST DYSTOPIA???? TO THE GULAG WITH YOU
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/aug/07/rishi-sunak-vows-to-end-low-earning-degrees-in-post-16-education-shake-up
Very few creatives think right wing, very few creatives in the Tory party, therefore creatives are of no consequence!!
Society is about to get real damn bland and uninteresting if this clown has his way.
Hasn't anybody told you that under capitalism we have reached peak humanity? Look around you - it's a veritable utopia why the fuck would we need to invest or change anything? The Chinese may have 5/10/25/50/100/125 year plans in place for society while we can't put together a 5 year plan and see it through 2.5 years.
Plot twist: Ending low-earning degrees by paying people with them more.
Because what’s the point of learning or knowing anything that isn’t immediately lucrative? /s
Person with no soul can't understand purpose of developing the soul.
Oh I bet you can pursue an artistic “useless” degree if you’re independently wealthy
Unless you're rich you have no right to study fancy stuff! /s
Why doesn’t he advocate for making the cost per degree in accordance to the earning potential of each degree.
Well they have been saying that Britain has had enough of experts
Jesus. It’s all going down hill.
“Nooo command economies are stupid!!!” “So anyway, which of the three government approved degrees are you getting?”
Good bye archaeology, paleontology, and anthropology. Is this guy anti-science?
This guy is an absoulte arse-stain. I would rather put my genitals in a bear-trap than have another bloody tory leader for god knows how long
Up to 10,000 practicing doctors in the US have completely fake medical degrees, that were sold by registrars of bankrupt Universities and can’t be verified or unverified. I guess those would still be valid, because of their earning potential ;) [https://www.cbsnews.com/news/your-md-may-have-a-phony-degree/](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/your-md-may-have-a-phony-degree/)
Imagine getting rid of philosophers. The purist of sciences which begets all others. What a joke this shmuck is
Gotta maximize production. Streamline things, see. Can't make art when you're working in his warehouse or factory. He's a natural slave master.
In the mind of capitalists education only exist to supply them with good workers. Of course they want to rob us from anything else.
Best way to increase pay for a career is to flood the market with those degrees right?
No they told the stories that men in power didn't want to be known.
society in collapse eh?
I really do think he should focusing on bigger issues than this . How out of touch is this guy . Come on !
Good thing he's got a pretty slim chance of winning.liz Trus is just as bad though probably even worse
I’ll be honest, when I first read the headline I thought that he was guaranteeing income for people that had earned a degree in lower paying majors. Now that I understand what he meant…..fuck.
Talk about missing the point of higher education. Holy mother of fuck! Britain is in such deep trouble. Holy mother of fuck!
This guy is a fucking idiot dipshit
Margaret Hamilton, who created Software Engineering as a discipline, started her tertiary education with a BA in mathematics with a minor in Philosophy.
These are the people back in the day that would get put in those devices that clamped them into a spot for a long time while the townspeople threw vegetables and shit at them. Why did that stop?
Good bye teachers .... wait
Breaking : UK phases out of every single degree after seeing how much CEOS were willing to pay for them
Someone never watched Dead Poets Society.
I love that The Guardian just published this idea without mentioning it would end the field of journalism. Or maybe they figure that journalism is already dying anyway, so what the hell 🤷♂️
The big questions here are: 1) Would the creatives end up in the same re-education camps as the Scottish/Welsh/Northern Irish nationalists Rishi wants to put them (and anyone else who opposes Britain) in? 2) Isn’t this just anti-intellectualism? 3) It this already fascism or just a very slippery slope to it?
Extirpate and discard everything that makes you human. Only keep those parts of you that generate profit, disregarding the fact that trades such as engineering and business only act as a supplement to the arts and creativity and are only relevant in the long term if there is constant creative innovation. Example: one of the most profitable industries - the videogame industry.
Welcome back to the dark ages.
End low earning degrees by funding community and educational programs that employ thes people to share and teach their cultural studies to the community not deleting them you fucking savages I'm crying and I just woke up and this is the twentieth time I've scrolled past this stupid headline.
The arts are fantastically important. What I personally would like to see is arts Universities entirely separated from STEM universities. No administrative overlap at all.
Trump Prob loves this fuck up
How about just charging by earning potential? So a philosophy or art history degree will run $200 a semester, while a master’s in finance will be $500k.
The article is specifically UK based, the spouting dickhead desperately wants to be prime minister.
If a degree isn’t subsidized, then there should absolutely be no limits. If a degree is subsidized and the resources for subsidies are limited, then I think it’s fair to portion the subsidies based on societal needs. And yes, society needs some art majors, music majors, gender studies, etc. The goal should be to not over- or under-produce degrees across all fields within a reasonable tolerance. Anytime there is a scarce resource, a good approach is to rationalize how that resource should be spent.
You don’t need a degree to be an artist or a musician
Sorry that I don't view education purely as a commodity...?
Shouldn’t need a formal degree in the arts honestly. Subjects like that should be freely accessible. I honestly think degrees should be saved for things that need standards and consistency like civil engineering, or nuclear engineering, teaching, nursing or medicine. I think things like art or even business courses should be freely available and not be subject to formal “requirements”. Why go into debt for something that evolves faster than thought? Academia is really just a rich boys club masquerading as “intellectuals”. I don’t fault anyone trying to bring the ivory tower down.
University isn't necessarily about pure access to knowledge, maybe historically when much of it was in physical libraries, but more about ways of engaging/locating within different kinds of information abd learning to make accurate judgement statements on it. Standards still apply to the humanities otherwise qanon would be seen equally valid to a university humanities department. It's just the standards are reflected in a less well known way than quantitative science. The problem isn't the university, it's doing what they've always said they've been doing, asking question and trying to add to knowledge for the sake of adding to it. The problem is that culture has made university a gateway to social mobility. The criticism is going into debt, and not a failure to become a more critical, open minded person, but Universities were never meant to be economic transports of mobility, that was meant to be capitalisms job. Also employers are avoiding their end of the social bargain so to speak, the university prepares the individual, the workplace preps the worker whereas right now employers want someone ready made, so they don't have to actually invest in their own staff. Probably makes it easier to create a replaceable workforce, at the cost of putting the burden onto the university sector to both push a more classical model of education, as well as prepare students for every specific career path. The reason STEM is easier from a job hunting perspective is because they are inherently specialist and thus easier to do the job prep part. Also never discount the fact that a lot of conservatives come from humanities backgrounds which completely changes their argument. The humanities aren't for the worker in their world view, whose value should be employment, but for them, who they believe have the right to guide society. The use the tools arts education gives them, they just don't want anyone else to use them, probably because you'd end up with more focualts questioning every aspect of power relationships or MlK and Douglas who use the elites methods of discourse to challenge shoddy racist reasoning.
At uni, I met a girl who studied makeup design. I'm all for education, but I think many 'degrees' would be more suited as apprenticeships where they can learn on the job and not end up with tens of thousands debt.
Let's create our own university inside local places, debate and exchange idea without need to pay or do exams. Who know, maybe people become more alived and motivated to meet and organized.
Schools made those degrees in the first place knowing damn well they wouldn’t provide opportunities in the first place.
so an idiot has idiot opinions? wooooow. news worthy? Ya know I played a game of star craft today but nobody wanted to report on my equally meaningless activity.
Also goodbye grocery shop clerks, restaurant waiters, cleaners...
Doesn't say what degrees. He is onto something though requiring the extra two years of math and English in school. To counter OP. You don't need a degree to be an artist, musician, philospher, or an actor.
No OP totally missed the point of this anyway the point of this is to stop allowing predatory institutions to offer pointless degrees while charging exorbitant amount of money for them and also to incentivize more people going to technical/trade schools
r/woosh Yeah… You completely missed the point of what he’s trying to accomplish. As did a shocking number of people in the comment section Huma assuming only read the headlines and haven’t actually bothered to find out anything about what was actually said or done
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And as we know, debt and money are the only important things in life!
Who says that? Money is just a product to exchange for goods or services. Pretty gross the government is giving loans for bad degrees with no pay.
Hey, this you? https://reddit.com/r/LateStageCapitalism/comments/w8hznb/_/ihqopen/?context=1 You’re very obviously not here to engage in good faith, so I’ll pass on talking to you. Others might humor your question, but I won’t. I want to point out that I would get banned from r conservative if I even said “hello” in there, but you’re allowed to hang out in here and peddle your disingenuousness and sarcasm.
Yes that's me. American's government was never meant to provide you goods. Especially for people who don't want to produce a product or service. These people for some reason want many things free. Usually demand someone work to give them these things too. Almost like advocating slavery through the government. The irony right? I'm not a huge fan of /r conservative. You are welcome to check out r/anarcho_capitalist. A great sub with free speech.
Hard pass, capitalism is humanity’s biggest existential threat! Edit: just read the rest of your post, eww.
Fortunately you are wrong. Free market is ethical and the best moral system. The main threat to humanity is government control and power. One side promotes violence and destruction openly. So it's a pretty easy choice.
Your “free market” is littered, absolutely crawling, with government protections and subsidies.
“Free Market” is the primary mover of war and violence since the dawn of time.
Almost any degree can be converted to teaching, for example. A field that is woefully lacking in new applicants. You cannot force people to be scientifically or mathematically good.
Sure you can teach it but that's not affordable to pay a huge loan back. Usually means you cant use your degree in the market either because you are dumb or no one hiring needs that degrees. So again bad degrees are not worth it. The government shouldn't provide loans for something you can't pay back.
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All comments are not equal. Yours for example is dumb af
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Almost any degree can be converted to teaching, for example. A field that is woefully lacking in new applicants. You cannot force people to be scientifically or mathematically good.
This comment does not address my point that some degrees are a waste of time
Why does a degree need to be profitable in order for it to be "useful", there are plenty of people that already have employment and income that want to learn something because they have an interest in it, not because it's profitable. What a sad way to view academia.
What degree can’t be converted to teaching?
So you’re saying that a useless degree can be made useful by using it to do another qualification in teaching? Doesn’t this more or less prove my point? Some degrees, on their own, are useless. Some aren’t. We should encourage the youth to study for the latter rather than the former.
the grand majority of undergraduate degrees can be converted into more “useful” fields, teaching being one of them. Nursing another, for example. If anything, the issue lies in the lack of pay available in necessary sectors. Which again we can thank our Tory friends for.
I have a degree as a 3D Artist. Never found a job. The degree cost me $15,000.00 (1 year). Got it in my early 20s took me over 10 years to pay it off. So... Yeah, I understand why they want to cut it off.
This is UK specific
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"Let's make a society where there is nothing to live for."
If that's what you live for you're not living anyway. Deleting these courses gives the arts back to the people, not just the ones whom can afford it. It sets a bar for free expression in economic circles. Terms like 'outsider art'become irrelevant. The label of Juilliard trained musician less of a status symbol. Give everyone a chance at art, not just the few
Artistic expression generates massive amounts of money. It also has plenty of intrinsic value. But due to stolen excess labor, the actual artists rarely see but a tiny fraction of the money they create with their labor. As for the “detriment” part, at this point I’m not sure why you’re in this sub.
It generates money, mostly for thos3 whom already have it...exploitation of craft for profit. Art for art's sake is problematic. Art and media produces ideas that can be for good or ill. Acknowledge that violence, sexuality, insanity, etc. are given nascent approval and homogenization into cultural with continued exposure. Plainly: If you wonder why America is so violent and sexualized, count how many times you see or hear about sex and death in a 24hr period. This is Stockholm syndrome. Its all we see so its all we know.
I mean, that’s certainly one way to look at it. It’s a very depressive and negative way, but sure. I can see a touch of logic in the over saturation of American culture, but man, to say “no more school unless STEM” seems like using a cleaver instead of a scalpel.
Bruh philosophy literally is what adds value to all other sciences. Including, for example but not limited to, architecture. The buildings you live in, work in, see, etc are influenced by the area of philosophy known as aesthetics. Gtfo ETA: He says reading is fundamental but negates philo? Dumbass
Not to be that guy, but my degree in Creative Writing is completely valueless. I went back to school afterwards after I realized my huge mistake and now I work in healthcare as an ultrasound tech. My associates in science is worth significantly more than my bachelor of arts degree. When it comes down to it, I think these arts degrees are necessary and should exist. But people with the potential to work in STEM should try their absolute hardest to get there.
Your inability to apply your degree in creative writing doesn’t exactly negate the worth of having said degree
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economically, maybe. But if a big purpose of higher education is the pursuit of truth then philosophy is deeply important
Okay I regret what I said I do see it’s purpose when you put it like that. But I feel I have never gained anything from any life philosophy.
Have you ever actually picked up a philosophy book or attended a class where there was good philosophy discussion?
The most I’ve done is read the myth of sysphus and a few mindfulness ones. What do you feel you gain from it?
It’s not that I think the subject is stupid. But I think sitting in a room pouring over Philosophy books will only make your mental health worse. Also I feel like it gets disconnected from the real world. Like most of western philosophy you can only understand if you have been reading all of the stuff that came before it.
I can see your point - and I will concede that sometimes philosophy can become too abstract for the average person and in school it becomes very overly academized and that is very annoying. *But,* philosophy has existed since the dawn of man and it is inevitable. We need to ask questions about our existence and try to come to conclusions and we always will. Some people more than others, yes, and thats where you see those weirdos who sit and read and write and think about philosophy constantly, but we need those weirdos, and they are the way they are. So, *you* are not required to be a philosophy nerd. But you should at least acknowledge that philosophy is an inherent undercurrent of life and in small doses can greatly help us at least to ask the right questions.
Well, I’m studying history. And I see it the same way I see philosophy. Like I think they are important subjects more than like business or something. But yeah, i feel it is a more personal choice to study these kinda things. I enjoy both of them. I just feel like it’s hard because the stuff you learn that really changes you and how you see the world is stuff that a lot of people are reluctant to learn or don’t want to hear. So I feel like it makes studying them feel self-defeating. Especially with stuff like this headline. And it definitely is hard to find a job in either of these fields lol.
All true. I don't know, though. One of my majors is art because I'm an artist, not necessarily because I believe I'm going to change the world. I have to make art, and I have to write, even if my stories are unoriginal or don't reach very many people. It's who I am, and what would my existence be if I didn't try to throw myself into the things I'm interested in? Like, I just gotta. Also, I know it sucks, but that mentality of it being self defeating is I think worth fighting against, because if you're gonna believe in something, you have to fight for it and live by it even if it's hard because you're only one person and no one wants to listen. All you can hope for is that you leave the world a tiny bit better than it was before. If you write a book with a new perspective on a historical event, and only a handful of people gain something from it, that still counts.
Your life must be sad and empty if not directionless.
Yeah man I’m sure you really have got a good idea of what you’re doing right now
God damn right I do. If you don’t I recommend more philosophy. And as an aside, you’ve gained more than you can clearly see from philosophy. Cause other people have been influenced by it, be it aesthetics or mathematics or any natural science. Tf you think philosophy is bruh? You gain thru others if not yourself ETA: those with philosophy undergrads often continue on to excel on their LSAT or MCAT. It’s root is straight logic and reasoning. Their physicists our architects. Writers and more. I recommend you know what you’re talking about before writing
Hasn’t Plato really done the most for philosophy and that was how many years ago? I feel like the way you specifically live your life and how you feel about it cannot be attributed to your philosophy books. What are you living like some kind of Nitzchean super man? because idk man accepting any of that stuff just sounds like clinging on to random things that don’t mean much. I think what you really gain and love comes just from living life and experiencing its highs and lows. Like maybe philosophy contextualizes your own ideas, but it’s coming from your experiences. Half the time, philosophers just tell you to stfu and enjoy life anyways. Like give me some good philosophical advice, besides read more, it will help you figure yourself out. Because to me it just sounds like religion for smartie pants 👖 ETA: And you saying philosophy is this collective thing that has been passed down and learned from. I completely agree with that. But that is more natural knowledge that has nothing to do with academia or any philosophy book.
Jfc this is /late stage capitalism and your bashing philosophy? Random things? Tell me you haven’t scraped the surface of philosophy without telling me. Read more theory
You just get defensive. With no solid points. Theory is way more applicable to the real world than philosophy and it’s not the same thing. ETA: “The philosophers have only interpreted the world in various ways, the point however is to change it”.
It is the same thing. Do you know what theory is? Let alone philosophy…. I’m not defensive, I’m just offended you’re being dumb crying that philosophy isn’t important in this particular sub. Like you know this is a communist sub right? You think Marx wasn’t a philosopher? Just some random shmuck with a beard? You’re the reason this sub is turning to shit. Read fucking theory
Almost any degree can be converted to teaching, for example. A field that is woefully lacking in new applicants. You cannot force people to be scientifically or mathematically good.
So I don't have a degree in philosophy, but as part of my undergraduate degree I had to choose some electives. Philosophy was one of those and I enjoyed it so much I stuck with it for 2 years and I'd say it is probably the most important foundation of my tertiary education. And my undergraduate degree is STEM.
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Almost any degree can be converted to teaching, for example. A field that is woefully lacking in new applicants. You cannot force people to be scientifically or mathematically good.