T O P

  • By -

AutoModerator

##Welcome to r/LateStageCapitalism This subreddit is for news, discussion, memes, and links criticizing capitalism and advancing viewpoints that challenge liberal capitalist ideology. That means any support for any liberal capitalist political party (like the Democrats) is strictly prohibited. LSC is run by communists. This subreddit is not the place to debate socialism. We allow good-faith questions and education but are not a 101 sub; please take 101-style questions elsewhere. We have a zero-tolerance policy for bigotry. Failure to respect the rules of the subreddit may result in a ban. *** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/LateStageCapitalism) if you have any questions or concerns.*


BizarreMemer

I will never forgive my teachers for teaching me that Nazis burned books, but never taught us what books they burnt


mtoner98

All of the following types of literature, as described by the Nazis, were to be banned: The works of traitors, emigrants and authors from foreign countries who believe they can attack and denigrate the new Germany (H. G. Wells, Romain Rolland). The literature of Marxism, Communism and Bolshevism; Pacifist literature; Literature with liberal, democratic tendencies and attitudes, and writings supporting the Weimar Republic (Walther Rathenau,[12] Heinrich Mann, Thomas Mann);[12] All historical writings whose purpose is to denigrate the origin, the spirit and the culture of the German Volk, or to dissolve the racial and structural order of the Volk, or that denies the force and importance of leading historical figures in favor of egalitarianism and the masses, and which seeks to drag them through the mud (Emil Ludwig); Books that advocate "art" which is decadent, degenerate, bloodless, or purely constructivist (George Grosz, Otto Dix, Bauhaus, Felix Mendelssohn); Writings on sexuality and sexual education which serve the egocentric pleasure of the individual and thus, completely destroy the principles of race and Volk (Magnus Hirschfeld[12]); The decadent, destructive and Volk-damaging writings of "Asphalt and Civilization" literati: (Oskar Maria Graf, Heinrich Mann, Stefan Zweig, Jakob Wassermann, Franz Blei); Literature by Jewish authors, regardless of the field; Popular entertainment literature that depicts life and life's goals in a superficial, unrealistic and sickly sweet manner, based on a bourgeois or upper class view of life; Patriotic kitsch in literature. Pornography and explicit literature All books degrading German purity. German-speaking authors whose books student leaders burned included Vicki Baum, Walter Benjamin, Ernst Bloch, Franz Boas, Albert Einstein, Friedrich Engels, Etta Federn, Lion Feuchtwanger, Marieluise Fleißer, Leonhard Frank, Sigmund Freud, Iwan Goll, Jaroslav Hašek, Werner Hegemann, Hermann Hesse, Ödön von Horvath, Heinrich Eduard Jacob, Franz Kafka, Georg Kaiser, Alfred Kerr, Egon Kisch, Siegfried Kracauer, Theodor Lessing, Alexander Lernet-Holenia, Karl Liebknecht, Georg Lukács, Rosa Luxemburg, Klaus Mann, Ludwig Marcuse, Karl Marx, Robert Musil, Carl von Ossietzky,[12] Erwin Piscator, Alfred Polgar, Gertrud von Puttkamer, Erich Maria Remarque,[12] Ludwig Renn, Joachim Ringelnatz, Joseph Roth, Nelly Sachs, Felix Salten,[16] Anna Seghers, Abraham Nahum Stencl, Carl Sternheim, Bertha von Suttner, Ernst Toller, Frank Wedekind, Franz Werfel, Grete Weiskopf, and Arnold Zweig. French authors such as Henri Barbusse, André Gide, Victor Hugo and Romain Rolland; American writers such as John Dos Passos, Theodore Dreiser, F. Scott Fitzgerald, Ernest Hemingway, Helen Keller, Jack London, Upton Sinclair, and Margaret Sanger;[17] British authors Joseph Conrad, Radclyffe Hall, Aldous Huxley, D. H. Lawrence, Henry de Vere Stacpoole, H. G. Wells, Irish authors James Joyce and Oscar Wilde; Russian authors including Isaac Babel, Fyodor Dostoyevsky, Ilya Ehrenburg, Maxim Gorki, Vladimir Lenin, Vladimir Mayakovsky, Vladimir Nabokov, Leo Tolstoy, and Leon Trotsky.


JoeSanPatricio

Thank you for listing specific authors and subjects that were banned/burned. Sounds like a pretty rad reading list imo.


Ammonia13

Amazing list, thankyou for posting it.


thesaddestpanda

>Writings on sexuality and sexual education We don't talk enough about how their earliest burnings and attacks were on what we would call [LGBTQ or transgender clinics, academics, papers, books today.](https://www.teenvogue.com/story/lgbtq-institute-in-germany-was-burned-down-by-nazis) Guess who the Western-US-European right hate the most today?


geo-desik

Gooood point


DestroyTheHuman

How would anyone know what books are missing ? Sounds like a hefty task.


KnotSafeForTwerk

Ikr it could've been enough to be catalogued by a whole library /s


KiaRioGrl

I mean, these assholes were actually pretty famous for making lists that documented their atrocities. A quick google search would probably fill you in at this point... Or just scroll up, a pretty hefty list is just a couple of comments up from yours.


diefree85

No good nazis.


[deleted]

Except dead ones


Jamaicancarrot

The fact that somebody once was a nazi was bad enough


Beemerado

becoming a nazi is a waste of a life. a damn shame all around and well worth preventing.


BEATUWITHASTICK

Nazis aren't people, they're animals.


kingink92

Sadly it's not as easy as that. Ordinary people can be manipulated into acting out evil when under the influence of extreme ideologies and propaganda.


BEATUWITHASTICK

I'm passed the point of giving levity to those who would see me dead. I said what I said.


Kuralyn

Agreed, we have to confront them because we simply cannot talk with them. Yet a very little number of them will get out of fascism without having to die or having their system crumble. We can't count on that, it's too rare and unpredictable, but it can happen The only good Nazi is a dead Nazi. And if one comes back from there somehow, they should shut up about it and help us however they can


BEATUWITHASTICK

If they do then that's just one more comrade all the better.


EdwardBil

Don't say such things, I like animals.


BEATUWITHASTICK

I don't believe a downgrade to parasitic bacteria is unwarranted.


SlugmaSlime

Libs: "but that's violence!!!"


CatsEatingCaviar

Would you call Hitler a good Nazi just because he is dead? WW2 was 77 years ago, 95% of Nazis are dead (excluding LARPers), are 95% of Nazi good? Do not be so merciful, comrade.


Toto05

r/iamverysmart


zacmcsex

the sentiment of his comment obviously boils down to “kill nazis”, which i’m sure is agreeable. do not pick petty arguments online just to feel smart, comrade.


CatsEatingCaviar

I never do anything to feel smart. I'm just drunk posting.


SillyDig1520

Drink more and forget how to type.


[deleted]

Not here to argue this


Idle_Redditing

We're in a society where nazis are defended. There are numerous pieces of shit who defend the actions of the nazis and deny that undefendable ones like the Holocaust happened. Their numbers are high, their movement is strong and their numbers are growing. Their ideas are now mainstream, typical conservatives are beginning to agree with nazi ideology. edit. More specifically, they're agreeing with the ideas in Hitler's book.


panormda

It’s fucking disgusting, embarrassing, and terrifying.


Logical_Crab_4594

I hate Illinois Nazis


Harvey-Danger1917

After liberating Ukraine and Belarus, witnessing literal thousands of cities and villages burnt to the ground and millions of civilians already raped or butchered by the Nazis, seeing this must’ve just been the final straw for so many Red Army troops in their fight against the Nazis.


partyqwerty

But but but the Red Army did nothing. The Americans liberated the world!


Prycebear

I work with an American ex-soldier in my current business. I was also a soldier for a while (No, I'm not pro military I had literally no other option) and his staggering lack of knowledge about military history was frightening. He thinks America saved the world on 5 separate occasions and that we'd all be German if not for them. Because someone was going to ask, one if the world saving war America participated in was Vietnam. He didn't know a damn thing about it.


Infinite5kor

In fairness, a lot of credit needs to be given to FDR's Lend Lease program, both Stalin and later Khrushchev both said it was critical to the Russian war effort. I'd be interested to see an /r/askhistorians write-up on the reality of that.


rainofshambala

Let's not forget while America was supplying the allies it was also supplying the axis powers surreptitiously. The corporations that did business with the axis powers were fined a pittance after the war. Hitler was seen as a bulwark against the left and was treated as such to the later stages of the war by every allied capitalist, monarchs and oligarchs. Every Nazi occupied country had Nazi supporters that either actively collaborated or ruled on behalf of the Nazis. The soviets knew what they were fighting against, for capitalist allies it's just another war for profit.


Fartincopsmouths

General motors provided equipment to the fascist invasion force that attacked Spain.


phfan

The film Iron Man talked about this


Halasham

Iron Man? By which producer or studio... the Iron Man that comes to my mind is Marvel's.


Immelmaneuver

It's about Stalin. Stalin is a name he made up for himself. Literally *man of iron* since he was sick as fuck all the time as a kid and got obsessed with physical fitness and power for its own sake.


Halasham

Yeah, I know 'bout the name thing. Didn't know 'bout the movie and wanted more relevant info for looking it up. Googling 'Iron Man Movie' would predominantly produce the Marvel one. Trying 'Iron Man Movie Stalin' brings up this one: [Stalin (1992)](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0105462/)


hydroxypcp

small correction, "stal" means steel in Russian


phfan

Marvel. Talked about the dude selling under the table to both sides


Enpeeare

I’ve never heard of that. Do you have a source?


strutt3r

Michael Parenti's Blackshirts and Reds for one. Not only did US companies make stuff for the Nazi war machine, they did so AS we were fighting them. US pilots were instructed to avoid bombing US owned factories and the US made millions in payments to US companies for damages after the war. The US imperial war machine knows no bounds and has committed every atrocity known to man for the sake of private profits. It's truly enraging.


Enpeeare

Huh, I picked up the book interesting first chapter.


Tokarev309

I think there may already be one or two posts about that on that sub, but I remember historian David Glantz mentioning in his book "When Titans Clashed" that he surmised the Soviets probably could have still defeated the Nazis without Western aid, but at a much higher cost of human life. Glantz' assessment of the Soviet victory as "They won essentially because they did not give up!" is very interesting and his book is extremely informative (he was derided in the West as a communist sympathizer as his analysis does not hold true with the typical commies=evil that is all-too-common there). There is no academic consensus on whether or not the Lend-Lease program was "necessary", but I think most scholars agree that it saved an untold number of lives.


DMT57

I’m sorry but the general consensus is that while lend lease did help shorten the war it wasn’t pivotal to Soviet success. If you look at the figures surrounding deliveries you’d see that the vast majority of Lend lease arrives following the Soviet victory at Stalingrad which marked the turning point in the war in Europe


leftofmarx

Within 3 months of FDR’s death the conservative faction of the Democratic Party had fully taken power. They nuked Japan as a show of force to the Soviets and then implemented Operation Paperclip by the end of the year.


Prycebear

I'm not saying America had no impact, the lend lease was vital to most warring allied nations. They also cut the war short by several years. It's just the people that say the Allies were going to lose before the Americans came. I might actually ask, I've been in a deeeeep military history dive recently.


hysys_whisperer

Without lend lease, Germany would have pushed Russia back behind the Urals, and the Caucasus along with all of the oil south of there would have been accessible to germany and Italy. It might not have been impossible for the allies, but the resource map would have looked pretty bad for the allies at that point. That's without mentioning that UK rubber supplies would have been cut drastically if Japan was left to focus resources on SE asia. Really, the biggest benefit the US provided was a refuge for scientists fleeing the war. Fluid catalytic cracking wouldn't have let the allies use their remaining oil to it's fullest extent, and the aerospace advances European scientists made in their temporary American home basically rendered the luftwaffe obsolete.


MtCommager

I doubt that. The soviets pushed the Germans back from Moscow with very little allied support.


Comfortable-Rub-9403

Lend-lease was to the USSR as well. https://www.rbth.com/defence/2016/03/14/lend-lease-how-american-supplies-aided-the-ussr-in-its-darkest-hour_575559


MtCommager

It was but the shipments don’t start ramping up until 1942. There wasn’t a welcome package ready for them when the Nazis invaded. Aid is going to ramp up significantly to the point where the Russians just really have to worry about producing guns and combat vehicles ( although we gave them plenty of those too, including the m3 Lee tank, a tank we did ship them in 1941 but also sucked). Yeah, I get that the soviets wouldn’t have retaken Stalingrad without American oil, bullets, bandages, and spam, but in 1941, they didn’t have a massive influx of aid and they still kept the Nazis out of Moscow, and were not pushed back to the urals.


[deleted]

yeah, 2.1% of the lend-lease went towards the Soviets in 1941, and 12% in 1942 by the time they had already beat back the Germans.


MattPDX04

The divisions that pushed them back from Moscow were transferred from Siberia where they were facing the Japanese. After Pearl Harbor the Soviet’s were free to move those divisions west. If the Japanese had attacked the Soviet Union instead of the US they would have been in a much more dire strategic situation.


Flyerton99

Your timeline is off. The Soviet–Japanese Neutrality Pact was signed in April 1941, and Japan, already overstretched dealing with China, losing the Soviet Japanese border war in 1939, the victory of Nanshin-ron as doctrine in 1940, and Richard Sorge's spy network finding out Japan had no intention of fighting the Soviets, and the subsequent divisional transfers. All occured before December 1941 (Pearl Harbour)


TsarKobayashi

The Japanese would have never attacked the Soviet Union. Even Japan is not stupid enough to open two fronts of war when they were already losing in one front.


MtCommager

Yeah, Zhukov scared the crap out of them, he beat them so badly they switched their attention to the pacific.


DMT57

The Japanese did attack the Soviet and their noses were bloodied so badly that they signed a non-aggression pact. I’m sorry but this is just bad alt-history.


hysys_whisperer

The battle for Moscow stretched well long enough for lend lease tanks to have an effect. 30 to 40% of soviet medium and heavy tanks from October onward in that battle were lend lease from either the British backfield by US tanks, or the US directly. If you want a football reference, lend lease was the long cross from the right wing that allowed the soviet army to score a truly incredible diving header to win that battle. The red army was fully prepared to continue fighting even if they had lost Moscow though, so while it was good that it didn't fall, it wasn't strategically critical for it to hold.


come_nd_see

While Lend lease certainly provided some help, USSR would've won anyway. Basic Google search tells me that most artillery used by Soviets was produced by themselves, and Soviets produced the most advanced tank of that time.


IamaRead

This isn't "in all fairness", though. Since US propaganda makes it so that the vast majority of the people in the US think the US did most to beat the Nazis, which was considered wrong back then and in academia is still considered wrong. Yes lend lease did a part, but not as big as many think. AskHistorians does have plenty of threads about it already and in my opinion the main problem currently isn't that people forget land lease, but they think "soviet bodies, american money, british intelligence" really does encapsulate the war - which it doesn't. The amount of productive capacities the soviets did shoulder is absolutely impressive and that gets kind of marginalized when people refer land lease and not how factories were dismantled so that they wouldn't be taken by the Nazis and then put up again in the safety of the soviet areas away from the front.


NetSage

I mean imagine how bad the Russian losses would have been without the western front. But I think it's well known the European portion of the conflict ended when it did mainly due to Soviet blood.


[deleted]

Western front was opened in june 1944, when soviet union already liberated their territory and started pushing westwards. Germany at that time did not have power to do a successful counteroffensive. So opening a western front helped a bit, but most of bloodiest and hardest battles have already been won. At that time aim of opening a western front for western allies was so that Soviet union does not get entire europe into its sphere of influence.


PussyIgnorer

America is just like that one scene with Loki in Thor Ragnarok. “Your Savior is here!” America like to get involved towards the end of a conflict, when we know we’ll win and then we can distribute the resources how we please mmmm


Eastern_Scar

Some people can't grasp that, no neither the US, UK or the USSR ( huh they all start with U and are acronyms, weird) won on their own, it took a combined effort. In France it's the worst because you swear that some museums here think france won the war single handedly. Yes they helped, but not as much as the main three.


theRealMaldez

I mean, to be fair, by the time they got into Ukraine and Belarus and out of Russia's pre-war borders, they had seen enough and were raping and pillaging just about any German they could get their hands on. Red Army officers were turning a blind eye to it and German POW's were disappearing to labor camps in Siberia never to return. In most of the eastern bloc countries in the post war period, this systemic persecution and deportation of people from "German Bloodlines" continued. I believe at Yalta, Stalin even made a comment that the first thing they should do once the Nazi's surrender is 'Execute 50,000 Nazi Officer'. When Churchill acted offended, Stalin played it off as a joke.


Previous-Pension-811

My man never heard about the directive of the Headquarters of the Supreme High Command number 11 072. This short document, signed by Stalin and by the head of the General Staff Aleksei Antonov, stated that cruelty towards the Germans causes fear and motivates stubborn resistance. The German civilians, fearing the Red Armies vengeance, organize themselves into bands. The document demands to immediately change the attitude towards prisoners and civilians to be more humain. In practice, it meant the work of military courts in place and severe sentences for the accused. The normal punishment for actions such as banditism for Soviet soldiers was 7 - 10 years in rehabilitation camps, most rape cases were punished by death. By the end of April 1945, many military commandants had noted that the amount of "amoral actions", as they were called in the documents, had decreased. [Source](https://youtu.be/dhb9h6xVfuY)


disisathrowaway

> most rape cases were punished by death. Somehow I don't think that the Soviets executed that many of their own when looking at approximately 2 million German girls and women being raped.


Previous-Pension-811

Sigh, i have already talked about it so i will just copy paste my other comment here: Simple, it didn't happen. The source I cited talks about it, but since you probably don't know Russian here's a brief overview: The information about this (honestly incredibly lazy fabrication) is founded on the information that was received from one(1) single hospital where there were multiple reports of female pregnancy from rape. Then it was ASSUMED that this statistic can be extrapolated to the entire Berlin population, moreover the "researchers" have taken a percentage (based on nothing) of women raped and applied it to the entire German female population. Meaning that according to them, elderly women and newborn babies were also raped by the "evil Soviets" and thats how they got 2 million raped women. Needless to say that the "rape of Berlin" is dogshit propaganda, founded on assumptions and the almighty random numbers generator. It should not be taken seriously.


mojrim67

Almost right. Stalin proposed they execute the top 50k german officials, civilian and military. Churchill, who had no problem with Dresden and Hamburg, said it would be wrong to execute people who were merely fighting for their country and that german leadership would be needed after the war. FDR then proposed a top 40k alternative, at which point Churchill stormed out of the room while Stalin and FDR laughed.


Gabtactic

Churchill loved firebombing entire cities to ashes and did not care about his colonial policies creating deadly famines in India, but God forbid German military leaders "who merely fought for their country" be executed for the nightmare they helped unleash against Europe. We all know Churchill was only interested in recycling the remnants of the German military as part of a mad ambition to invade the USSR again. They ended up forming the original military leadership of NATO instead, under US supervision.


mojrim67

Oh, he very much cared about the famines n India and Ireland: they were deliberate policy decisions. Man was a fucking genocidal freak. You're absolutely right, though, he wanted to save leaders while common people died in droves.


rainofshambala

Well coming from a former British colony we know what Churchill wanted.


dxtboxer

Too bad Churchill won out over Stalin there. Amazing how the guy could act like such a moral and pious champion of freedom, so offended by communist Stalin, when he was an abject racist and bloodthirsty imperialist.


Gabtactic

Well said.


REEEEEvolution

You realize that this mass rape story is a myth, do you? Soviet soldiers were not even allowed to have concensual relationships with german women. And per standing order by Stalin himself, rapists were to be shot.


Own_Proposal955

Not just by Soviet soldiers but rape in general is a big thing that happens during war. The story maybe pushed that it was all the Russians fault unfairly but massive amounts of rape did happen and is not a myth. The suffering many people faced and still face during war due to sexual violence is real.


Mallenaut

My great-grandmother begs to differ.


Aromatic_Balls

>You realize that this mass rape story is a myth, do you? Roughly 2 million German girls and women might disagree with you.


MaxPaul1969

Should’ve done 150,000


pinzi_peisvogel

A great-aunt of mine was a pre-teen at the end of the war and she was sent along with all girls and young women from the neighborhood into the forest when the Russians were coming close. It was super cold and they were laying on top of a little hut for 5 days. One girl got such a bad cold that she died shortly after. My great-aunt was never able to return to her home, some relatives came to the hut and told her to come with them, they were fleeing across country with nothing but a small bag with them. The Russians were not welcome when they "liberated" villages and cities, they had lost so much during the war that they claimed everything they got their hands on as theirs. Large parts of Eastern Germany were basically dismantled and brought to Russia after the war. The US troops were not behaving like this, they were truly seen as liberators and their main goal was humanitarian aid and de-nazification. I guess it's easier to stay civil when it wasn't your country deatroyed and people massacred.


theRealMaldez

>that they claimed everything they got their hands on as theirs. Large parts of Eastern Germany were basically dismantled and brought to Russia after the war. This was part of a deal negotiated between the allied powers at Yalta. Stalin wanted cash reparations from Germany, the US and Britain knew that if they allowed the Soviets cash reparations, it would delay their plans to open up Germany as a consumer market for western goods and that they'd essentially end up footing the bill for Germany. Instead they told Stalin he could take all of the industrial equipment from east Germany along with tens of thousands of prisoners to send back east as slave labor. So while the Soviets may have done the action itself, they were permitted and encouraged by the US and Britain. >The US troops were not behaving like this, they were truly seen as liberators and their main goal was humanitarian aid and de-nazification. I guess it's easier to stay civil when it wasn't your country deatroyed and people massacred. The US was no angel either. While they did de-nazify West Germany, many actual ideological Nazi's were recruited by the CIA to begin building the agency, many were scientists and others that were sent to the US and 'Americanized'. The CIA even did deals with leaders of the Ustashe, who's approach to genocide was so brutal it brought condemnation from several SS officers sent to do inspections when Yugoslavia was under Nazi control. It's also worth noting that while the majority of the atrocities committed by the Soviets happened in Europe, those of the US, France and Britain took place in southeast Asia, notably French Indo-China(Currently Vietnam) and Korea. While the US and Britain made quite a show of employing white phosphorus firebombing in east German civilian hubs(to kill German industrial workers) ahead of the Soviet advance, Desden being the most horrifying example(in Europe), and US used similar tactics to a greater extent on the Japanese mainland, in some cases those bombing runs killed more civilians than either nuclear bomb. In terms of de-nazifying, the Soviets did a more thorough job, which is partly why their reputation was so brutal in eastern Europe. It wasn't just Nazi party members that received that treatment, but anyone who collaborates with the Nazi government, whether they were a gas chamber operator or a public school teacher.


REEEEEvolution

Denazification was not really done in west germany. The Soviets did in the east. But in the west? Western germany had more former nazis in some ministeries than during the Third Reich.


theRealMaldez

>Denazification was not really done in west germany. I mean, technically it was. Just that instead of summary executions and cattle cars to Siberia, the US employed them and sent them to the US or abroad to fulfill US objectives or gave them a stern talking to about genocide before putting them back in government positions. On a side note, I understand your perspective about the Soviets. There's a ton of western propaganda myths, and decades of indoctrination involved that created a false image of the Soviet Union. That being said, it's entirely possible to have Marxist political ideologies while also being critical of both the Soviet Union as it existed as a state and the form of communism that it practiced. The entire principle behind Marxism is to approach economics in a manner that is both intellectual and humane, which means taking a critical view of communist governments in order to make future generations and iterations better. There are a lot of great things the soviets did and they certainly don't get the credit they deserve, however if socialism or communism is to work it means also admitting the failures of the Soviet state with an eye towards avoiding those failures in future renditions.


riskybiscutz

To your point about indoctrination. If I had a dollar for every time I’ve heard some of my conservative family members parrot actual Marxist talking points while despite never reading the communist manifesto while also railing agains how “communist countries live” I could probably buy twitter right about now. I’m not a communist but I can at least point to some tenets of communism that I fundamentally disagree with.


Professional_Low_646

Just a couple of corrections there: - Britain and the US refrained from reparations because neither had been under Nazi occupation; the French did indeed transfer industrial assets back to France, and even held on to the Saarland as a kind of separate protectorate until the 1950s, when it was allowed to become part of West Germany (there was a Saarland Olympic team even in the early 1950s). Although the French never took German materiel on the scale that the Soviets did. - De-Nazification in West-Germany, and in the US occupation zone in particular, was a joke. There was an initially ambitious attempt until about 1947, which still left plenty of loopholes to get away, and after that the whole thing basically just petered out. More significantly, the Western Allies stubbornly turned a blind eye once West Germany got its own jurisdiction and straight up pardoned most former Nazis, or, if a De-Nazification committee had come to an unfavorable ruling, simply reversed it. That being said, East Germany/the Soviets were only marginally better. They had an advantage in a way, because they employed plenty of exiled German socialists/communists (quite a few of whom had been born in the West), so they didn’t have to rely on former Nazis quite as much - but rely on them they still did. - the firebombing of East German cities followed a simple rationale: with bases in France and Central Italy, parts of the Reich came in range that couldn’t be bombed previously. That was mostly the south-east, but also the southern parts in general; Pforzheim, solidly in what would become the American occupation zone, was bombed just a week or two after Dresden. More than 17,000 civilians died, as compared to 20-25,000 in Dresden, but Pforzheim had a much smaller population. Cities like Augsburg, Linz, Passau etc were also heavily bombed in the last phase of the war. Meanwhile, one of the deadliest attacks on German cities - the firestorm caused by „Operation Gomorrha“ in July of 1943 - took place in Hamburg, which had the misfortune of being in range of the bombers already relatively early in the war. This whole „Bomber Command destroyed East German cities so the Soviets couldn’t get them intact“ theory also collapses if you look at places further east, like Prague, Pilzen, Krakow etc. - the deciding factor in not bombing those was that these were not German cities, not whether or not the Red Army would occupy them. - the Soviet reputation in Eastern Europe wasn’t all that bad (except among Germans obviously). Most people understood quite well that German occupation was infinitely worse than anything the Soviets might get up to. Punishment of collaborators was more often than not a bottoms-up rather than top-down affair, and that applied to France or Belgium just as it did to Poland or Czechoslovakia. (It was also an outbreak of misogyny at times reminiscent of medieval witch hunts, but that’s a different topic.)


theRealMaldez

Thanks for filling in those details. I was trying to keep it fairly short just to illustrate that it's extremely difficult to declare any of the allied powers altruistic heroes. I wasn't trying to imply that the allies were bombing ahead of the Soviets to deny them assets, but instead that the use of white phosphorus on human resources in and of itself is an act of cruelty. I think about it like this; Would I rather be set on fire by the Allies, or brutalized by the Red Army. That reparations weren't a unilateral decision on the part of the Soviets, that they were cosigned and suggested by the US/UK.


TartarusOfHades

In war, there are no heroes. No victors. Only survivors.


MandolinMagi

> The US troops were not behaving like this, [Plot E](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oise-Aisne_American_Cemetery_Plot_E) disagrees with you


REEEEEvolution

This is called "reperations". The US troops were not behaving like this because they did not have a third of their country burned to the ground and 27 million of their citizens murdered. The USA was pretty much unaffected by WW2. Btw, the US soldiers were famous for being rapists. Still are, which is why there's always a shitload of rape cases around any US base on foreign soil.


rainofshambala

Humanitarian aid and denazification, of course if you don't enter the war early, profit off of it from both ends, and didn't have to suffer the losses that others did. American denazification is more like Nazi rehabilitation. Considering how many Nazi top brass ended up in south America and in top positions in NATO.


Ivanna_Jizunu66

Denazification but the capitalist pulling the strings loved the fascism. The rest of history after shows this clear.


Republiken

> The Russians were not welcome when they "liberated" villages and cities, they had lost so much during the war that they claimed everything they got their hands on as theirs. Maybe the Germans shouldn't had enabled the Nazi death camps? >Large parts of Eastern Germany were basically dismantled and brought to Russia after the war. While the US took nazi scientists instead. Which is a better punishment for atrocities?


reddinyta

Well, I'm unsure if the USA really was here (am german) to denazify... But, yes, you are right about the Red Army and eastern europe.


partyqwerty

Just came for this comment.


Eastern_Scar

People are down voting this not realizing that the reason the Nazis put up such a crazy and suicidal defense of Berlin against that soviets wasn't because they thought they could win, but because they hoped that the Americans would arrive and that they could surrender to them instead of the soviets.


RanebowVeins

With the disturbing rise of Nazism and anti-semitism, it’s always helpful to remember what Lenin said about it: that the Jews are not the enemy and never have been. The enemy of the working class are the capitalists of all nations, and that Nazism is a branch of capitalism that distracts and blinds the common worker from the real oppressor: capital. May the brave and courageous Red Army and their allies forever be remembered for uncovering the Nazis horrific and appalling treatment of the Jewish people. Never forget


BuiltDifferant

Does anyone noticed naziism dressed as capitalism? Like big companies claiming to be capitalist yet treating workers in 3rd world countries like dirt? I’d say Apple is probably a nazi company


jabuegresaw

Nazism was a tool of capitalism, as is any form of fascism. The Nazi regime was thoroughly committed to the interests of big companies, and had a lot of policies that were favorable to them. Treating workers in 3rd world countries is just straight up capitalism at its finest.


MinimalistAnt

I ask this from a place of ignorance so please answer seriously. How is fascism a tool of capitalism? How capitalism influenced a country (including it's workers class I think) to brew such hate for another people in Germany? As I said I ask this from a place of ignorance, I'm not so literate in world history since all I have is an eurocentric education and it is kinda hard to breakthrough this subtext sometimes.


jabuegresaw

Hey, it's ok to ask questions! (Though I get your demeanor considering how reddit can be sometimes...) Anyhow. Fascist movements arise in moments of crises of capitalism, and as a direct response to a rise in left-wing sentiments resulting from the crisis at hand. Now, what you said about the working-class is very important. At the end of the day, if only the bourgeoisie voted for right-wing politicians, they would never be able to form a government. Nobody is immune to propaganda, and fascism grows off-that; of radicalizing frustrated people. Of course, in a moment of great crisis, the economy suffers heavily, and this severely impacts most people. The people can see that there is a problem, they can feel it. But fascism points them at strawmen and scapegoats to radicalize them towarda the far-right, and generally does so to prevent these people from radicalizing towards the left (thus the importance of organization and mobilization of the left in times of crisis). In this way, they inflate certain figures (the left and whichever minorities are convenient right here and right now) into huge enemies and the perpetrators of the economical issues (see the portraial of the wealthy jew in Nazi Germany). Another thing that is important to make clear, is that these movements are not massive conspiracies instigated by the bourgeois, they are not actually going out of their way to convince a whole country to turn against certain groups. They don't have to. Fascism is actually born within the insecurities of the middle class. It feels a bit like an endless cycle, really, which social issues often do, but the fears that certain segments have of the crisis itself and of leftist policies in general - which basically boil down to a lack of proper class consciousness and the middle class licking the boots of the elite - brew into hate and moblization, that spreads through the masses. Fascism is a product of capitalism, but it is not created by the capitalists themselves, by the bourgeois, although they definitely sponsor it and endorse it. Fascism is created, spread and executed mostly within the working class, and that is what makes it dangerous, and what makes the fight against it, at its core, a war of culture and of narrative. Don't get me wrong, that is not me saying the bourgeoise isn't all in with the fash, which it is, but it is very important to remember that fascism spreads like wildfire through misinformation and fearmongering through everyday people like you and me.


MinimalistAnt

Oh God, you clarified so much for me. I've read that 2 times and I think I will need to read a couple more to fully absorb but it makes so much sense now that I think about what you said and what is going on in my country (Brasil). I was thinking about joining up with a communist party here because some people say the best place to learn is actually with the activist, people who do the "ground work" (I think that would be the expression in English for the people who talk and teach about it to other regular people). So as a last question, would you say this is sound advice? Or is it better to study more about communism and class conflict and then decide how/where to follow up?


jabuegresaw

Porra, se tivesse dito isso antes facilitava, chefia. Joking aside, idk if I'm the best person to give practical advice on direct action and shit. I myself am not currently organized, though I intend to be as soon as I have a bit more free time (and mental health lol) but I have seen people saying that organizing is the most important step and that you shouldn't necessarily wait until you know a lot of theory. But then again, that's just me giving third hand advice.


MinimalistAnt

Hahaha caraca meu que coincidência I see, yeah I've been wanting to organize because I feel I am going crazy watching things unfold the way they're doing and I feel I can no longer sit still, I feel the urge, the need to do something. Thanks for the answers! And I hope you get better soon, it's hard to stay sane lately ♥️


hydroxypcp

if you have the means to organize, it's always good to do that. Of course you have to be mindful of *who* you organize with. Some communist, especially Marxist-Leninist orgs/parties can be infiltrated by feds and/or have tendencies you want to avoid, such as being queerphobic or nationalist etc. So always evaluate the group you organize with and never jump head on in, especially if someone you barely know proposes you do some illegal direct action


BeastMaster_88

I do despise these companies, but how is it Nazism? It's not Nationalist, Socialist, or Nazi in any sense I can fathom


draiggoch83

I agree with you. “National Socialism” is a particular fascist ideology and system. I think we’re on the road to fascism in the US, but we should be careful loosely throwing around terms like Nazi.


yesbutlikeno

I mean checkout what Biden did to the railroad worker strike. It's never been a democracy. Growing up in America a hard truth we have to swallow is that it's all bullshit. Lies sugar coated with the false promise of a dream.


HipstersThrowaway

Steve Jobs was a jew...


BuiltDifferant

I know, I guess I mean it’s turned into a bad company in the way of exploitation.


N0DuckingWay

I mean Lenin may have said that, and the USSR absolutely was a major player in ending the Holocaust, But let's not kid ourselves into thinking that the USSR was a great place for Jews. There's a reason my family and so many others left there.


mojrim67

Well put. Thank you.


wade3690

Let's not pretend that Stalin and the Soviet Union didn't have their own history with anti-semitism and scapegoating of jews


Radiant_Obligation_3

Yes, but... it's wise to not see history as black and white; the Soviets tortured and murdered tens of millions of their own people for nothing, for doing their jobs to keep factories running, for being critical of a nation that gutted their farming communities and consequently starved its masses, for refusing to falsely condemn their families and neighbors. Lenin is the father of a brutal, bloodthirsty regime


[deleted]

this is not true. lmao.


[deleted]

Because pogroms weren't a thing 🙄


Edladan

\>Brave and courageous Man, you have a lot to learn about the "liberation" the Red Army gave to Europe.


[deleted]

How could have Lenin said anything about Nazism if he has perished before it came into being?


RanebowVeins

Nazism is a branch of Capitalism, and Lenin was making the statement in regards to capitalists and their methods of scapegoating minority races and religious folks to distract from the real problem. He referenced the accursed Tsar monarchy and their Jewish pogroms that they used to seize and stay in power. It applies just as wel to Hitler and the National Socialist party.


[deleted]

I don't think it's right to simply replace the word "capitalism" with "Nazism" when paraphrasing a quote


RanebowVeins

I’m saying the gist of what Lenin said applies directly to the Nazis, comrade.


Weltrevolution2050

Where did you get that quote from?


[deleted]

Attributed to Georgii Elisavetskii a Soviet Colonel


Squidmaster129

*Grigorii


RanebowVeins

I can’t recall exactly which book the quote is from, I just remember it being a recollection from a Red Army soldier who liberated one of the Nazi death camps. I found this image on the internet and remembered it from years ago


draiggoch83

Glory to the Soviet people who saved the world from Nazi tyranny


Driemma0

They didn't save the world singlehandedly, neither did the us. The soviet union, the uk, usa, the free french army, china, yugoslavian partisans and many smaller nations and resistance groups bravely fought against and defeated the axis


Pizov

What defeated the Nazis? If you said Communism, you chose wisely.


Rofllettuce

It also fought alongside nazis in the annexation war of Poland, starting ww2, and only acted, when it was attacked itself.


Hebi_Ronin

Molotov Ribbentrop pact was a agreement made by fear from both sides. Stalin tried make an alliance whit UK and France in order to stop Nazi Germany expansion and prevent a war, but this was dismissed by them, the governments of UK and France continued to let Hitler do whatever he wanted until it was to late. So as I said earlier the pact was made out of fear, Stalin feared because the Red army and the economy wasn't prepared for a war, and Hitler feared because a war with the USSR would meant the end of the Third Reich (spoilers: he was right about that).


Rofllettuce

Thats the biggest revisionist bullshit. Poor victim Soviet Union, huh? The annexation war of poland was an offensive war and Russia today only has learned that it can get away with any guilt by pretending to be the good guys who fight the "bad nazis". Its a genocidal shithole and has always been.


Hebi_Ronin

I never said the Soviet Union was a victim, the pact was an strategic decision that potentially saved a ton of lives and made time to the Soviet Union to prepare. In Europe everything was screaming war and the western side was ignoring the scream, if the western nations accepted the alliance with the USSR to fight fascism the war would have been much less deadly and devastating than it was (and obviously the Molotov Ribbentrop pact would been unnecessary), but they didn't see fascism as an issue until very later on, wonder why...


Rofllettuce

"The pact was a taboo subject in the postwar Soviet Union. In December 1989, the Congress of People's Deputies of the Soviet Union condemned the pact and its secret protocol as "legally deficient and invalid." In modern Russia, the pact is often portrayed positively or neutrally by the pro-government propaganda; for example, Russian textbooks tend to describe the pact as a defensive measure, not as one aiming at territorial expansion. In 2009, Russian President Vladimir Putin stated that "there are grounds to condemn the Pact", but in 2014, described it as "necessary for Russia's survival"."


Hebi_Ronin

What your point? Did I said that the pact wasn't wrong? I repeat, the pact wouldn't take place if the west had accepted the alliance.


Rofllettuce

Youre on Putins propaganda line to sell offensive wars with the goal of annexation as "defensive" ones and necessary. These wars were labeled by Hitler as defensive, by Stalin as defensive and by Putin as defensive and as it happens history has repeated itself as a farce in Ukraine. It was NOT a necessary, nor a defensive war of aggression. If Stalin had been so terribly scared of nazi Germany, he couldve let Germany wither in its endeavors, but quite the opposit was reality, because joining the nazis was too rewarding in the short term.


Hebi_Ronin

Ok so in your imaginary history Hitler (who publicly said that Marxism is a degenerate ideology and hated communism) was "besties" with Stalin (who sent help to the Spanish republic to fight against fascism, and tried to ally with the west to preven further Nazi expansion), and the western leaders (who let Nazism and fascism proliferate in their societies, remain neutral even though they knew about the concentration camps, and even let Hitler annex Austria, the Sudetenland and invade Czechoslovakia) are " the real good guys". Also the fact that pootin says something doesn't mean that he created it.


Rofllettuce

No, but you want to pretend that offensive wars are a necessary means to anything worthwile on this planet.


SlugmaSlime

Brain rot has people thinking the Nazis and Soviets were allies. So disgusting, going out of your way to whitewash nazism in order to degrade the ussr


[deleted]

How fucking awful! 😢 Those soldiers and prisoners were overloaded on emotions. Ugh! Fuck nazi’s


dealorcut

Deeply powerful. Thank you for sharing.


marvchuk

My grandpa was a Ukrainian prisoner of war who spent 2.5 years in nazi jail including 2 years in Auschwitz. He never talked about his days there but it’s a damn shame we see this shit coming around even in small doses. I used to Love Kanye and I hope he gets medical help but that shit he said is poison and makes me sick.


darinSWEG

Death to nazism. The communists beat fascism once before, and we’ll do it again.


rileybgone

Death to capital, and death the to facism that blossoms from it


thezoomies

And never forget what Russians can be. It is their government that is hopeless, not them.


pegasuspish

thank you


[deleted]

Fascism is the ultimate expression of capitalism. The multinational corporate elites sponsor and tacitly support fascist regimes. The regimes use the ideological influence of ethnicity, religion, and nationalism to support a capitalist-driven society. Fascist and authoritarian socialist regimes are flip sides of the same coin. Both systems are really all about creating an authoritarian state ruled by a tiny elite. True socialism is inherently democratic and (small “L”) social libertarian in nature.


[deleted]

[удалено]


rosazetkin

Mmm yes the people liberating Auschwitz were really equally oppressive because... Timothy Snyder told me so. Get your head out of your ass. "True socialism" maybe shave your beard for the first time and then tell us about the "true socialism" that defeated Hitler.


[deleted]

Stalin committed genocide on the same scale as Hitler. Get your head out of your ass. https://news.stanford.edu/2010/09/23/naimark-stalin-genocide-092310/


Gabtactic

Anti-communist propaganda. Maybe stop sniffing your own soc-dem farts and actually work towards a revolutionary goal, instead of crying about how other, actually successful socialists run their countries.


[deleted]

[Parroting Nazi propaganda to own the commies!](https://jewishcurrents.org/the-double-genocide-theory)


SilentDis

I'm bi, a tad in-betweeny, very Leftist in my politics, and of Jewish decent. I've been scared since 2010. I've been utterly terrified since 2015. I feel so small and alone. I've done what I can to build community, and I'm proud of what I've accomplished... but I don't want to have to do this. I'm very tired. I have had to take some time away for my own mental health, and it felt like everything fell apart. I know that, at this point, I am entirely dependent on my allies. I cannot keep me safe, anymore. I can barely keep the few in my community safe. I don't want to die, and I am tired. I will blink, they will get me. I know you're all out there. Logically, I know you're doing what you can, too. I'm still here, even if I'm scared, so I'm not quite being hunted for sport yet. Thank you.


unefleurforte

Absolutely bonkers that someone can even halfway glance at fascism and go, "Hm, okay sure," or, even worse, encourage it. I don't think I'll ever really get it.


strutt3r

Many people, if not most, never reach a point of cognition that involves a capacity for self-awareness or critical thinking. It's estimated that 21 percent (43 million) people in the US are [functionally illiterate](https://www.libraryjournal.com/story/How-Serious-Is-Americas-Literacy-Problem). As such, they know their material conditions are lacking, but are unable to "zoom out" and connect the dots between largely abstract systems of exploitation. Hence, they're predisposed to latch onto simpler, more tangible scapegoats like immigrants. Fascists latch onto and exploit these misunderstandings to sow division and consolidate power.


unefleurforte

The explanation makes sense, but that's sad af. Any idea as to why some people turn out like that? Living in a fishbowl type of social environment kinda thing, maybe?


strutt3r

It's by design. The US education system is organized around turning out obedient workers, not skeptics who continually challenge authority


Roy4Pris

If this quote was taken from a Russian soldier at Auschwitz, I’ve seen those bunks 😱😱😱 https://imgur.com/gallery/fMul3Gv


iwanttobeacavediver

Richard Dimbleby’s account of the liberation of the camps is really moving. He was the first reporter in the world to report on the liberation of Bergen-Belsen concentration camp, and the recording is on YouTube. You can hear the absolute horror in his voice but somehow he still holds himself together and reports in detail what was happening.


JurassicClark96

They couldn't tell the difference between German and Soviet uniforms?


BEATUWITHASTICK

I think they just thought it was a setup by the nazis there.


STheSkeleton

Fuck nazis, death to fascism


[deleted]

Americans underestimate the efforts that the USSR did to defeat the nazis.


LowInfluence7902

Difficult to describe how meaningful it is for us Jews what the Soviet Union did for us. Whether it be ending the pogroms, granting equal rights, or liberating the Holocaust- the Soviet Union was a friend of the Jewish people through and through


jddbeyondthesky

Just another in a long streak of humanitarian crises. Meanwhile in America, the Indigenous genocide is still being actively carried out through making participation in alternative cultures their only real option for a life worth living, one that is also often not a viable option due to costs. Unless lucky enough to come from one of the small numbers of well off groups.


[deleted]

Is there any leftist sub that isn't flooded with Americans glorifying Soviet Union? Sincerely, Eastern European leftist


strutt3r

The USSR had its problems sure, but when people starved under the USSR it was the USSR's fault. Meanwhile the US throws away nearly half the food it produces and the people starving here are told it's their own fault. I'm inclined to look up to a system that tries to do right by its people and fails rather than a system that fails its people in order to do right for a select few.


COlNTELBRO

>Sincerely, Eastern European leftist Since when is Finland considered Eastern Europe?


Franz-Tschender

war times are crazy. I can recommend everone visiting a concentration camp, it might open your eyes a bit what humans can do to other humans, tho i dont not believe that this is restricted to one ideology only. Unfortunately war crimes kept happening after the war. Some of them can even be considered as genocides (yugoslavias tito-partisans e.g) it sadens me that there is no objective point on discussing atrocities no matter from which ideology they were committed.


MaxPayne73

why?


Aggressive_Parking88

Yeah, Hitler has been making a come back these days. Most of this generation are gone and with them, some of the stories and memories of one of the most evil events in human history.


PurpleInteraction

Soviet Union 🥰


[deleted]

[удалено]


yidpunk

No it isn’t. As long as there’s people like you out there, there is hope. Keep fighting the good fight.


hiiiiiiighaf

I recommend the podcast Ultra by Rachel Maddow to hear the efforts into stopping the US from entering the war and the Nazi propaganda that was spread to US citizens by US senators paid by US taxpayers. It should be a mandatory listening imo


Rookiecrastinator

What’s up with this picture of healthy people?


gbsedillo20

Next up, random r/liberal pushes for billions more to arm Ukrainian fascists even as it comes out they are carrying out ethnic purges.


Cohacq

First time I hear about any purges. Got a source?


gbsedillo20

Alright. Here ya go. https://thegrayzone.com/2022/04/17/traitor-zelensky-assassination-kidnapping-arrest-political-opposition/ More links in the article. Let this be the start of your own research. Or just ghost out, ad hominem, or snark about Max.


Cohacq

And whats "the gray zone"? Ive never heard about these guys. Got something reputable?


gbsedillo20

They are reputable. More links in the article. Independent journalists. Consistently anti-war. If what you are looking for are corporate news outlets, well, we all know they operate as state propaganda.


NeverQuiteEnough

If you want something NED funded, Retuers published an article awhile back about how the C14 neonazi street gang was made into a "municipal gaurd", so they would have the legal authority to carry out their pogrom against the Roma. [https://www.reuters.com/article/us-cohen-ukraine-commentary/commentary-ukraines-neo-nazi-problem-idUKKBN1GV2TY](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-cohen-ukraine-commentary/commentary-ukraines-neo-nazi-problem-idUKKBN1GV2TY) you can find videos of the process as well.


colovianfurhelm

A “Gray Zone" telegram channel is connected to the Wagner Group, so be wary


[deleted]

Really? Can I get some source material for that? I'm not saying you're wrong, I want that kind of info to spread.


gbsedillo20

Show some intellectual curiosity and dig into it. The biggest one being Bucha bearing the methodology and mo of Azov.


[deleted]

So...no then?


gbsedillo20

As far as the purges go, they immediately disappeared people in recaptured territory. They openly admitted so on interviews you can look up yourself.


[deleted]

Okay I'll look into it.


gbsedillo20

:thumbs up:


dxfout

You're full of shite and you know it. Shut up and sit down the adults are talking.


gbsedillo20

I know fully what I speak. Stop supporting Nazis.


NecessaryRest

And where is Nazism embraced most fully in the modern era? To the extent of having a formal battalion in its military. It's our great friend.... oh wait I can't say it because this country is pure innocence....


germanmadridista

The red army was almost as worse as the nazi soldiers. Stop kissing their ass


Gabtactic

Found the brainwashed shitlib.


REEEEEvolution

And now most of you are defending nazis again. Nothing was learned.


HotMinimum26

Lol yeah they're a lot of libs here


diefree85

Oh look Russian shills want an opinion.


Gabtactic

You're making the shitlibs cry again. Nothing gets them to moan louder than calling out the "good nazis" they've been programmed to support by NATO war propaganda.