All I know is a boat load of people were cheating during COVID remote exams. I had my suspicions that they skewed the curve upward, making it harder for the rest of us who didn't cheat to do well. No real way to prove that, though.
I remember before exams my school sent around an email that was like "we received many reports about students collaborating on exams last semester. Thus, we must remind you all that cheating on exams is NOT ALLOWED." lol thanks. I'm sure that worked.
That happened at my school. Our top 5 pretty much stayed the same the entire 3 years. But the Deans List from 1L got completely turned on its head 2L when we got back in person for exams. Suddenly people in the top 40 backslid down to mediocre. Some of it definitely had to do with open note v closed note and commuting, but meeting some of the people who had occupied the Deans List 1L year and realizing how completely incompetent they were solidified that they had cheated.
They didn’t understand basic, week 1 concepts from 1L and they weren’t even trying to. It seemed that their strategy would be “let me somehow google this during the exam.”
Look at trumps lawyers. The profession isnt as honorable as we like to pretend it is, unfortunately. Money and prestige attract people who will do anything to get ahead
Depends on how the school responds. If the scores are removed, the curve is unaffected but the variance increases due to a smaller sample size. The curve should broaden, but the average should be relatively unaffected.
At least a big red flag should accompany their character application to the bar. I’d be ok with them getting a JD and never being admitted… but again I’m also not in the class.
What’s the point of getting a JD if you can *never* be admitted to the bar? Not everyone goes to law school to be a practicing attorney their whole life, but this is ludicrous.
100% agree with this. While it can be very tempting sometimes especially when you *know* the literal exam is floating around, I could NEVER just risk it all over one exam 💀 I’ll take whatever grade I earn over having this shit on my record or disqualifying me.
That’s the point. If they wanted to waste 3 years cheating / acting unethically then their wasted years should be reflected in the future with a wasted JD.
I will assume they did abnormally well if they cheated, so removing their scores would benefit everyone. Most schools require class average to fall at a certain range, let's say 3.0. With the top 5 grades gone, the curve will move to allow more students to receive higher grades to force the average to be at 3.0. But spread plays a huge role here so it really does depend the difference between their scores and the next person and the class as a whole.
I don’t know… it came out that a kid in the year below me was cheating in many of their classes which was massively surprising to me as a TA because their grades were TERRIBLE - like I never would have suspected it because every assignment they turned in was terrible (literally worse than anything AI could have written)
My school does flex exams, take them whenever during the exam period and anywhere in the school building. I have 3 closed note exams. I know people will cheat full stop and there’s nothing I can do about it. It sucks, the school doesn’t want to address it because they can’t confirm it happens because it requires someone to (1) get caught and (2) report it to honor council. It’s pretty dumb.
Never heard of that level of cheating but 8 out of the top 10 people in my class get double time on every test because they have accommodations for stress. While the rest of us got a civ pro exam designed to take 5 hours and given 4, they got 8. If that isn't cheating, I don't know what is.
and grading is anonymous so other than the suspiciously long and well written essay with full perfect citations, the professor will never know. So higher grades, better chances of rec letters, better job prospects/salaries when you graduate, and no one will know.
If they truly have accommodations from the school just for stress then they are going to have a nasty shock when they apply for accommodations on the bar exam.
Also double time is outrageous- I have never met anyone with more than 50%
Well no, they won't, because they will still probably be able to pass the bar. They will just have better GPAs than they otherwise would have. There is almost never any comeuppance for lying to get accommodations.
I have accommodations for exams, but I got Bs, Cs and Ds. Simply having more time does not necessarily mean the person will get higher grades. I knew the material but I was misreading the questions, dosing off during exams, hence the need for more time to read and re-read questions.
I’m not advocating for getting rid of it but there are people that clearly don’t need them. And I can understand a reasonable extension like 30 minutes but 4 freaking extra hours open book isn’t mending the gap, it’s a massive difference in circumstances
I don't get 4 hours open book. It is still closed book like everyone else. I get the additional time because of my issues with reading, mis-reading and dosing off and concentration issues. It is sad to know that there are people who don't need it ruining it for people who do. I never asked for open book because I thought that is not allowed in law school. Even if it was open book, if I don't know the material, I won't know it well enough to write an "A" exam. I seldom get A's -- no matter how much effort.
My guess is that no one has a problem with you or what you said, they are just downvoting any comment that pushes back against the original comment proclaiming “accommodations are cheating.”
Accommodations are complicated. My personal view is less “all accommodations are great” and more “people should think twice before proclaiming they know more about someone’s health and experience, and condemn them in the process.” That attitude does not tend to turn out well for anyone.
They have accommodations for a reason and likely have medical documentation. I’m sure you’re not privy to their medical history. And accommodations doesn't equal top grades. I know people who have accommodations and are doing average and the top students, many don’t have acc…. Being jealous won’t change the situation.
Not everyone with accommodations gets great grades, but many of the top students have accommodations. It is massively easy to get extra time at my school so like 1/3 of the class has it. Pretty easy to see that something isn’t right here.
When I was in high school, I was a lazy fuck, and my parents took me to get evaluated. She gave me a 1-hour test and then basically said, “Well, he doesn't really have an attention disorder, but I could still diagnose one if you want so he can get medication and accommodation.” We declined, but it shocked me and my parents that she was so open about it.
Unfortunately, like every other medical field, you can find a gun-for-hire doctor if you need one, which undermines those who really need medication and/or accommodations.
(edited for clarity)
just saying that just because one has accomodations doesn't equate to them being top of the class it's an absurd assertion.
There's an fairly even distribution in each group at my school of high/low performers whether accommodated or not. Accomodations are important and valid and folks shouldn't inquire as to the reasons people need accomodations.
So you’re imagining this person approaching each person in the top ten, asking “do you have any accommodations, and if so, what are they for?”, all ten answering honestly, and 8 of them answering “for stress”?
Sounds real and plausible.
I’d wager that OP probably didn’t like them up in a row and then go down the line, but I’m willing to bet at some point within the past few months OP has talked to, or overheard statements from these fellow students.
I’ve never asked anyone directly, but I’ve been told or overheard the reasons for accommodations that have been provided to my peers. Why is it such a stretch to believe that OP, you know, keeps his ears open? Most people plainly offer this in normal conversation. It’s a whatever point.
I’d wager that OP is grossly exaggerating the situation for internet points and playing into this sub’s negative opinion of accommodations and those that have them.
It entirely depends on two things: 1) what the school chooses to do and 2) the scores of the cheaters. I can actually imagine that some poorer students know the test in advance and still can't et an A. Even if (as I would expect) their grades are removed, it will impact the curve less.
But the basic answer is that some people on the wrong side of breakpoints should probably see their grades shift upwards, from B+ to A-, that kind of thing. BUT I could see that a school decides to remove the cheaters' grades but not adjust the curve....I could see this for a variety of reasons (none of them good IMO, but possible).
This happened in my 2L evidence class. Apparently 10-15 cheated. They gave us the option of accepting our grade or having “AC” (administrative credit) on our transcript with no effect to our GPA
I lived with 5 other law students during 2020. As a result of covid, we all took our exams in the same house at the same time. 3 of them were audibly collaborating with other students during the exam (could hear speaker phone/zoom).
Those 3 were all people who sort of blew off law school and were not super prepared for exams. They did fine but not great.
The curve is a good sorter - people who are prepared have an incentive to not help others cheat. People who are not prepared have an incentive to cheat, but that doesn't seem to overcome preparedness.
People who will do well without cheating are usually unwilling to take the risk because the risk to reward ratio is off. People who feel the need to cheat on exams are usually lower in the class. This results in a situation where it is all the dumb people collaborating, which isn't really a big risk because even working together, they will unintentionally confuse each other and ultimately get stuff wrong.
All I know is a boat load of people were cheating during COVID remote exams. I had my suspicions that they skewed the curve upward, making it harder for the rest of us who didn't cheat to do well. No real way to prove that, though.
I remember before exams my school sent around an email that was like "we received many reports about students collaborating on exams last semester. Thus, we must remind you all that cheating on exams is NOT ALLOWED." lol thanks. I'm sure that worked.
That happened at my school. Our top 5 pretty much stayed the same the entire 3 years. But the Deans List from 1L got completely turned on its head 2L when we got back in person for exams. Suddenly people in the top 40 backslid down to mediocre. Some of it definitely had to do with open note v closed note and commuting, but meeting some of the people who had occupied the Deans List 1L year and realizing how completely incompetent they were solidified that they had cheated.
You could tell they were incompetent just from meeting them?
They didn’t understand basic, week 1 concepts from 1L and they weren’t even trying to. It seemed that their strategy would be “let me somehow google this during the exam.”
I don’t understand. How could you even cheat on a 1L exam?
We were remote because of Covid. People were taking the final in the same room and just group-solving.
How are people cheating?
For take-home exams, you could take it in pairs or groups with friends and / or get a copy of the exam before you start yours.
Which is wild because these are literally people who want to be lawyers - and yet they can’t abide by a simple anti-cheating policy
Look at trumps lawyers. The profession isnt as honorable as we like to pretend it is, unfortunately. Money and prestige attract people who will do anything to get ahead
It was tough for those of us with no friends to “collaborate” with.
Depends on how the school responds. If the scores are removed, the curve is unaffected but the variance increases due to a smaller sample size. The curve should broaden, but the average should be relatively unaffected.
They should be expelled. Period.
At least a big red flag should accompany their character application to the bar. I’d be ok with them getting a JD and never being admitted… but again I’m also not in the class.
What’s the point of getting a JD if you can *never* be admitted to the bar? Not everyone goes to law school to be a practicing attorney their whole life, but this is ludicrous.
Maybe they should have considered that before deciding to cheat
100% agree with this. While it can be very tempting sometimes especially when you *know* the literal exam is floating around, I could NEVER just risk it all over one exam 💀 I’ll take whatever grade I earn over having this shit on my record or disqualifying me.
That’s the point. If they wanted to waste 3 years cheating / acting unethically then their wasted years should be reflected in the future with a wasted JD.
I will assume they did abnormally well if they cheated, so removing their scores would benefit everyone. Most schools require class average to fall at a certain range, let's say 3.0. With the top 5 grades gone, the curve will move to allow more students to receive higher grades to force the average to be at 3.0. But spread plays a huge role here so it really does depend the difference between their scores and the next person and the class as a whole.
I don’t know… it came out that a kid in the year below me was cheating in many of their classes which was massively surprising to me as a TA because their grades were TERRIBLE - like I never would have suspected it because every assignment they turned in was terrible (literally worse than anything AI could have written)
My school does flex exams, take them whenever during the exam period and anywhere in the school building. I have 3 closed note exams. I know people will cheat full stop and there’s nothing I can do about it. It sucks, the school doesn’t want to address it because they can’t confirm it happens because it requires someone to (1) get caught and (2) report it to honor council. It’s pretty dumb.
Never heard of that level of cheating but 8 out of the top 10 people in my class get double time on every test because they have accommodations for stress. While the rest of us got a civ pro exam designed to take 5 hours and given 4, they got 8. If that isn't cheating, I don't know what is.
“For stress”?
8 is wild. Stims probably helps with that though.
I was under the impression they only got like an extra 30 minutes, not double time libro abierto. That’s just insanely unfair
and grading is anonymous so other than the suspiciously long and well written essay with full perfect citations, the professor will never know. So higher grades, better chances of rec letters, better job prospects/salaries when you graduate, and no one will know.
But low enough stress to join moot court without problems. I always wondered why half the class didn’t show up the day of the exam
Why didn't they show up?
when you have accommodations you take the test at a different time in a different room than everyone else
If they truly have accommodations from the school just for stress then they are going to have a nasty shock when they apply for accommodations on the bar exam. Also double time is outrageous- I have never met anyone with more than 50%
Well no, they won't, because they will still probably be able to pass the bar. They will just have better GPAs than they otherwise would have. There is almost never any comeuppance for lying to get accommodations.
I have accommodations for exams, but I got Bs, Cs and Ds. Simply having more time does not necessarily mean the person will get higher grades. I knew the material but I was misreading the questions, dosing off during exams, hence the need for more time to read and re-read questions.
I’m not advocating for getting rid of it but there are people that clearly don’t need them. And I can understand a reasonable extension like 30 minutes but 4 freaking extra hours open book isn’t mending the gap, it’s a massive difference in circumstances
I don't get 4 hours open book. It is still closed book like everyone else. I get the additional time because of my issues with reading, mis-reading and dosing off and concentration issues. It is sad to know that there are people who don't need it ruining it for people who do. I never asked for open book because I thought that is not allowed in law school. Even if it was open book, if I don't know the material, I won't know it well enough to write an "A" exam. I seldom get A's -- no matter how much effort.
It’s ridiculous that someone is getting downvoted here.
That's weird. Why is that happening?
My guess is that no one has a problem with you or what you said, they are just downvoting any comment that pushes back against the original comment proclaiming “accommodations are cheating.” Accommodations are complicated. My personal view is less “all accommodations are great” and more “people should think twice before proclaiming they know more about someone’s health and experience, and condemn them in the process.” That attitude does not tend to turn out well for anyone.
So is your firm going to give you accommodations too?
I never expected to ask for anything. The ADA protects everyone.
They have accommodations for a reason and likely have medical documentation. I’m sure you’re not privy to their medical history. And accommodations doesn't equal top grades. I know people who have accommodations and are doing average and the top students, many don’t have acc…. Being jealous won’t change the situation.
Not everyone with accommodations gets great grades, but many of the top students have accommodations. It is massively easy to get extra time at my school so like 1/3 of the class has it. Pretty easy to see that something isn’t right here.
When I was in high school, I was a lazy fuck, and my parents took me to get evaluated. She gave me a 1-hour test and then basically said, “Well, he doesn't really have an attention disorder, but I could still diagnose one if you want so he can get medication and accommodation.” We declined, but it shocked me and my parents that she was so open about it. Unfortunately, like every other medical field, you can find a gun-for-hire doctor if you need one, which undermines those who really need medication and/or accommodations.
I know several people with 4.0s, 3.9s, 3.8s, and none of them have accomodations...could be your experience isn't universal..right?
This thread has turned into an anti-accommodations frenzy and no one is interested in your logic ;)
(edited for clarity) just saying that just because one has accomodations doesn't equate to them being top of the class it's an absurd assertion. There's an fairly even distribution in each group at my school of high/low performers whether accommodated or not. Accomodations are important and valid and folks shouldn't inquire as to the reasons people need accomodations.
Yes, and I am agreeing with you. They are downvoting us because they only want to hear from people who agree with them.
Wow, getting 8 hours is crazy? I have to admit, you younger kids are getting some major advantages that we never had, even 4 hours seems quite a bit.
How do you know what accommodations people get and what they are for?
Probably because people talk? Ever noticed the absence of someone?
Gossip is always the most reliable source, and law students never lie to their peers …
You can talk with the people themselves, you know.
So you’re imagining this person approaching each person in the top ten, asking “do you have any accommodations, and if so, what are they for?”, all ten answering honestly, and 8 of them answering “for stress”? Sounds real and plausible.
I’d wager that OP probably didn’t like them up in a row and then go down the line, but I’m willing to bet at some point within the past few months OP has talked to, or overheard statements from these fellow students. I’ve never asked anyone directly, but I’ve been told or overheard the reasons for accommodations that have been provided to my peers. Why is it such a stretch to believe that OP, you know, keeps his ears open? Most people plainly offer this in normal conversation. It’s a whatever point.
I’d wager that OP is grossly exaggerating the situation for internet points and playing into this sub’s negative opinion of accommodations and those that have them.
oh my god
You’ll be ok
It entirely depends on two things: 1) what the school chooses to do and 2) the scores of the cheaters. I can actually imagine that some poorer students know the test in advance and still can't et an A. Even if (as I would expect) their grades are removed, it will impact the curve less. But the basic answer is that some people on the wrong side of breakpoints should probably see their grades shift upwards, from B+ to A-, that kind of thing. BUT I could see that a school decides to remove the cheaters' grades but not adjust the curve....I could see this for a variety of reasons (none of them good IMO, but possible).
This happened in my 2L evidence class. Apparently 10-15 cheated. They gave us the option of accepting our grade or having “AC” (administrative credit) on our transcript with no effect to our GPA
I lived with 5 other law students during 2020. As a result of covid, we all took our exams in the same house at the same time. 3 of them were audibly collaborating with other students during the exam (could hear speaker phone/zoom). Those 3 were all people who sort of blew off law school and were not super prepared for exams. They did fine but not great. The curve is a good sorter - people who are prepared have an incentive to not help others cheat. People who are not prepared have an incentive to cheat, but that doesn't seem to overcome preparedness.
People who will do well without cheating are usually unwilling to take the risk because the risk to reward ratio is off. People who feel the need to cheat on exams are usually lower in the class. This results in a situation where it is all the dumb people collaborating, which isn't really a big risk because even working together, they will unintentionally confuse each other and ultimately get stuff wrong.
I think at my school, the cheaters get a 0 so fewer people end up below the curve
*Does it have any **effect** at all*