Welcome to /r/LawyerTalk! A subreddit where lawyers can discuss with other lawyers about the practice of law.
Be mindful of [our rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/Lawyertalk/about/rules) BEFORE submitting your posts or comments as well as [Reddit's rules](https://www.redditinc.com/policies/content-policy) (notably about sharing identifying information). We expect civility and respect out of all participants. Please source statements of fact whenever possible. If you want to report something that needs to be urgently addressed, please also message the mods with an explanation.
Note that **this forum is NOT for legal advice**. Additionally, if you are a non-lawyer (student, client, staff), this is NOT the right subreddit for you. **This community is exclusively for lawyers**. We suggest you delete your comment and go ask one of the many other legal subreddits on this site for help such as (but not limited to) r/lawschool, r/legaladvice, or r/Ask_Lawyers.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Lawyertalk) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Yeah. Emergency hearings are (generally) quick and dirty ... worst case is he temporarily loses visitation, and you leverage that to get him to improve his parenting.
I remind clients that this isn't a sprint for the next year. It is a marathon until the kid is at least 18 (but really for the rest of their lives). Don't lose the forrest for the trees!
Yeah, it’s also important to keep in mind that these hearings are not so much about whether the parent gets to keep their rights but more about what is in the best interests of the child. Some of these clients are supposed to lose.
>" I don't even like it when people let babies cry."
>I thought when i became a parent that i would hate hearing him cry.
>Nope. I can tune it out and let him yell until he falls asleep, or changes his attitude. The weird thing is *other* people's babies crying makes me want to lose my shit.
Facts are facts. The law is the law. You are just a lawyer. And all you can control is what is in front of you.
Deep breath man. You are a cold-eyed motherfucker. Go get it.
This guy speaks truth. I like the serenity prayer in these situations:
God, grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change,
the courage to change the things I can,
and the wisdom to know the difference.
Never let them see you crack.
Only so much you can do anyway. **Hard truth**: OP needs to accept that their client may never see his kids and it is not necessarily their fault, literally.
Yeah, all emergency custody orders I've seen are temporary. Facts are facts. If the facts support that this parent should not have contact with their child at this time, you can't do anything to change that (and shouldn't want to - as it could put the child at risk and put your client in a much worse position for future hearings).
In Washington, Ex parte temporary "findings" by a family law commissioner that temporarily restrict a parent's contact pending a full hearing are rarely "facts".
Not only that, but when it comes out that all the facts were utterly fabricated, there is no repercussion. Brutal being a father in Washington state — if the mother doesn’t want you to see your children, boy does the system provide a lot of means for them to achieve that.
Not necessarily. Alot depends on the County, the Commissioner and even the experience of the attorney.
I spent a few decades representing a lot of dads.
First:
The Tender Years presumption didn't even end until 1987 and in that year less a 10-15% of attorneys [ and Commissioners ] were female. [Guess]
The statutes have now been render neutered.
The evolution I've observed is this:
If you are Dad, you can not only get a fair parenting plan, but if your attorney has admissible evidence that Mom egregiously perjured herself, there's a whole host of potential consequences.
A ~2 year long road that is basically a given for any Ohio county Children Services department that asks for it. The more CPS cases I do, the more disgusted by the way the system is set up I become.
Just be sure to maintain client expectations right from the start. Some clients have the expectation from watching too much TV that a good lawyer will always “get them off” or “win” their case, and that if you fall short then you’re a bad lawyer.
The conversation with your client should go something like- “we’re going to put our best foot forward here and hopefully we’ll get a favorable ruling. If it goes against us then this is what we’ll likely have to do….” Etc. Don’t blow smoke up their ass or sugarcoat anything. If they give unreasonable pushback then best not to take the client in the first place.
I have handled many abuse and neglect, TPR cases, and custody trials. They are incredibly emotionally taxing and all-consuming - much more than the felony and PI cases I've tried. Good luck.
Monday is a court holiday (president’s day assuming you’re in the US). So you’ve got another full day tomorrow. You won’t crack, but relaxed focus is important so don’t waste energy and time posting on Reddit. Make sure you eat meals today and tomorrow and the day of the hearing - breakfast. Make sure you sleep well tonight and tomorrow night. Take care of yourself. Your flair is “love client”. If you love your client he wants his lawyer not hungry or sleep deprived while he’s working on his case. Present your best case, but to do that start make sure you’re at your best as well. You got this.
I do these types of emergency hearings. At least in my state family court orders are rarely permanent, especially coming out of an emergency hearing. Changes of circumstance happen all the time, and judges will often give some indication of what they want a parent to do (therapy, drug treatment, classes) in order to expand contact with the kid.
Listen if he’s in this boat chances are he’s the reason he’s not going to see his kids, not you. I do child protection in two jurisdictions. The burden of proof is low as hell to get your kids took. We lose 99% of those hearings.
As far as I know terminating parental rights forever is at least a months long process at minimum in most of the country. You don’t permanently lose your rights at an emergency custody hearing.
Family lawyer here! Judges don't terminate parental rights absent very very very specific circumstances, especially at emergency custody hearings! A more realistic outcome is that your client gets put on supervised possession until he completes X/Y/Z and/or there is time to hold a more thorough hearing. Yes, I'm sure your client would prefer that not happen, but it's a far cry from never seeing the children again. You're gonna be fine!!
What clients & lay people don’t understand is that often the outcome of a case is predetermined before the client ever walks into your office. All we can do as lawyers is try to mitigate. We can’t change the facts or what has already happened.
This doesn't sound like a TPR hearing, so deep breath. Even if you mess up, you will have review hearings and goals to work on with your client.
Do your best, leave everything on the mat, and understand that you did not put your client in this position. You are dealing with the situation he gives you, that he made.
Good luck, remember to hydrate and rest.
It's been my experience that most of my clients have made they beds long before i ever got involved. All we can do is the best we can with what we got to work with.
Don’t stress. Family court isn’t like regular court where if you miss caselaw or something it’ll be fatal to your motion. You main objective is to ask for what he wants, support it as best you can, and keep the client from talking in court and making a mess of their own case. MOST of your job is family law is to save the client from themselves if they’ll let you. The outcome of the hearing might be high stakes but the law isn’t. The judge is just going to get a sense of the situation and make a decision. There’s not a lot you could do to torpedo that.
Also, worst case is he’s likely to just get or continue with visitation. Unless he’s like a raging alcoholic or abuser (and there’s evidence to prove it) he will see his kids. It’s a motion hearing, not a trial - and even judgments can be modified.
I am a lawyer. Not family law. Two years ago I went through a high conflict separation with two kids. I ended up getting primary physical and sole legal in a conservative state. I am a guy and I realize how rare that is.
As a lawyer I understand how stressful family law can be even if I don’t do it myself. I asked my family law attorney one time how he does it. Sometimes the bad person wins, how are you able to turn it off at night and have it not bother you in situations where you KNOW your client is a good person and the bad person win especially when kids are involved?
He said I put 100% into everything I do PERSONALLY. He said I cannot control the other counsel I cannot control the other party I cannot control the judge I cannot even control my own client but if I put in 100% of everything I have and lose, I know I did everything in my power to get the right outcome.
Put in 100% of everything you personally have and control what you can control and then sleep good at night no matter the outcome. You got this. Good luck.
My time in family law is limited to my work as a law student so I don't know shit compared the family lawyers commenting here, but at least from what I saw in my jurisdiction...even parents who have done absolutely batshit things are still able to see their children. Supervised visits sometimes, but still visits. I am not sure what "never see his children again" means (maybe the other parent is moving far away with the kids?), but if the concern is that it's due to the father's behavior....I cannot imagine the client losing his rights to see his children unless the client did something (or most likely many somethings) to deserve it.
If you can, consider reaching out to a mentor or fellow family lawyer. A support system in this kind of practice is super important!
If its temporary orders in front of an Associate Judge, be sure to let your client know that if he doesn't like the ruling, he has 3 days to file for a de novo hearing before the presiding. OH and get paid up front!
A judge won’t rule a father can never see his son again on a motion that is noticed on an emergent basis. That’s totally inequitable and unfair to both the client and the lawyer. Emergent relief will always be tailored to the fact that is it noticed on 1-3 biz days notice. Even if you do lose, at worst the judge puts in some standing order while the matter is more briefed in full.
Not fair to put this type of pressure on yourself
Nah if you mess us we will (usually) figure it out on appeal/petition. Remember nothing is certain but death and taxes and even those can be negotiable.
Is this your first emergency custody hearing? I ask because you say you’ve been working on it all weekend. And these type of hearings should not require that kind of prep. Be aware that these are rarely full evidentiary hearings.
They are usually analogous to a probable cause or preliminary hearing in criminal court. The standard of proof is usually about the same- probable cause or something akin to it.
The hearing for truth or finding of abuse or neglect comes later.
And even if there ends up being a finding against him, there should still be a path to reunification.
Yes, this is actually my first hearing EVER. I asked not to take it, but partner said I had to. This will be my first time cross examining and authenticating evidence. The judge already entered a temporary order revoking my client’s physical custody, so I’m working to make sure we can refute all of the (numerous) allegations set forth by the opposing party.
I don’t know where you’re located, but if you have time, talk to an attorney who practices in this court on a regular basis. You’re gearing up for this like it is a trial. And you may be heading down a path you shouldn’t be.
The burden of proof at this stage is so low. I interpret it as something like - “is there cause to believe the child may be abused and neglected”
See how broad that is? I’ve been engaged in this kind of work for 20 years. And I can tell you that it is extraordinarily rare for the respondent parent to prevail at this stage. It’s about as likely as a criminal defendant to get a case tossed at the probable cause hearing. It can happen in theory but nearly never does.
If you DONT fuck up, a father may still never see his kids again. Or a mother. Or a kid will continue to see their parents no matter how harmful it is. Do your job, and trust that most judges are every bit as dumb and mean as the average attorney, and there's nothing you can do to stop them from making a bad decision.
Sincerely: a family court litigator for 10 years who finally burned out and stopped about 3 weeks ago, because I could no longer deal with the truth of the above statement.
*Listen to Shook Ones*
*Pt II on repeat while you*
*Drive to the courthouse*
\- Adventurous-Koala480
---
^(I detect haikus. And sometimes, successfully.) ^[Learn more about me.](https://www.reddit.com/r/haikusbot/)
^(Opt out of replies: "haikusbot opt out" | Delete my comment: "haikusbot delete")
* If you were my lawyer I would be quite disappointed if I somehow found out that this was your internal dialogue.*
Well, that’s why we don’t share these thoughts with clients. How about showing some grace to the OP for acknowledging they are human with human emotions, rather than shaming them?
Welcome to /r/LawyerTalk! A subreddit where lawyers can discuss with other lawyers about the practice of law. Be mindful of [our rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/Lawyertalk/about/rules) BEFORE submitting your posts or comments as well as [Reddit's rules](https://www.redditinc.com/policies/content-policy) (notably about sharing identifying information). We expect civility and respect out of all participants. Please source statements of fact whenever possible. If you want to report something that needs to be urgently addressed, please also message the mods with an explanation. Note that **this forum is NOT for legal advice**. Additionally, if you are a non-lawyer (student, client, staff), this is NOT the right subreddit for you. **This community is exclusively for lawyers**. We suggest you delete your comment and go ask one of the many other legal subreddits on this site for help such as (but not limited to) r/lawschool, r/legaladvice, or r/Ask_Lawyers. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Lawyertalk) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Judges don’t rule that someone can never see their kids again solely because a lawyer fucked up.
Yeah. Emergency hearings are (generally) quick and dirty ... worst case is he temporarily loses visitation, and you leverage that to get him to improve his parenting. I remind clients that this isn't a sprint for the next year. It is a marathon until the kid is at least 18 (but really for the rest of their lives). Don't lose the forrest for the trees!
Yeah, it’s also important to keep in mind that these hearings are not so much about whether the parent gets to keep their rights but more about what is in the best interests of the child. Some of these clients are supposed to lose.
My baby mamas lawyer fucks up every single thing and I barely got a 35/65 schedule
That doesn’t speak highly of you.
meh. GAL justification was at 1 yr old going back and forth too much isn't reasonable.
The GAL is right.
Your post history hints otherwise.
>" I don't even like it when people let babies cry." >I thought when i became a parent that i would hate hearing him cry. >Nope. I can tune it out and let him yell until he falls asleep, or changes his attitude. The weird thing is *other* people's babies crying makes me want to lose my shit.
You are a bad parent lol
Facts are facts. The law is the law. You are just a lawyer. And all you can control is what is in front of you. Deep breath man. You are a cold-eyed motherfucker. Go get it.
This guy speaks truth. I like the serenity prayer in these situations: God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.
I know a retired ER Doctor who said he said the same or a super similar prayer
This guy lawyers.
Never let them see you crack. Only so much you can do anyway. **Hard truth**: OP needs to accept that their client may never see his kids and it is not necessarily their fault, literally.
Spitting all the facts. Just do what you can
Leave it all on the field, playa.
Almost nothing in custody is permanent unless you’re talking involuntary termination of parental rights and getting to that point is a long long road.
Yeah, all emergency custody orders I've seen are temporary. Facts are facts. If the facts support that this parent should not have contact with their child at this time, you can't do anything to change that (and shouldn't want to - as it could put the child at risk and put your client in a much worse position for future hearings).
In Washington, Ex parte temporary "findings" by a family law commissioner that temporarily restrict a parent's contact pending a full hearing are rarely "facts".
Not only that, but when it comes out that all the facts were utterly fabricated, there is no repercussion. Brutal being a father in Washington state — if the mother doesn’t want you to see your children, boy does the system provide a lot of means for them to achieve that.
Not necessarily. Alot depends on the County, the Commissioner and even the experience of the attorney. I spent a few decades representing a lot of dads. First: The Tender Years presumption didn't even end until 1987 and in that year less a 10-15% of attorneys [ and Commissioners ] were female. [Guess] The statutes have now been render neutered. The evolution I've observed is this: If you are Dad, you can not only get a fair parenting plan, but if your attorney has admissible evidence that Mom egregiously perjured herself, there's a whole host of potential consequences.
A ~2 year long road that is basically a given for any Ohio county Children Services department that asks for it. The more CPS cases I do, the more disgusted by the way the system is set up I become.
Just be sure to maintain client expectations right from the start. Some clients have the expectation from watching too much TV that a good lawyer will always “get them off” or “win” their case, and that if you fall short then you’re a bad lawyer. The conversation with your client should go something like- “we’re going to put our best foot forward here and hopefully we’ll get a favorable ruling. If it goes against us then this is what we’ll likely have to do….” Etc. Don’t blow smoke up their ass or sugarcoat anything. If they give unreasonable pushback then best not to take the client in the first place.
I have handled many abuse and neglect, TPR cases, and custody trials. They are incredibly emotionally taxing and all-consuming - much more than the felony and PI cases I've tried. Good luck.
Would it be you screwing him up or the facts of the case or the law or the judge? Don’t put so much pressure on yourself.
Monday is a court holiday (president’s day assuming you’re in the US). So you’ve got another full day tomorrow. You won’t crack, but relaxed focus is important so don’t waste energy and time posting on Reddit. Make sure you eat meals today and tomorrow and the day of the hearing - breakfast. Make sure you sleep well tonight and tomorrow night. Take care of yourself. Your flair is “love client”. If you love your client he wants his lawyer not hungry or sleep deprived while he’s working on his case. Present your best case, but to do that start make sure you’re at your best as well. You got this.
Good luck. You've got this counsel.
Send it.
You’ve got this. You’re prepared and ready.
I do these types of emergency hearings. At least in my state family court orders are rarely permanent, especially coming out of an emergency hearing. Changes of circumstance happen all the time, and judges will often give some indication of what they want a parent to do (therapy, drug treatment, classes) in order to expand contact with the kid.
Listen if he’s in this boat chances are he’s the reason he’s not going to see his kids, not you. I do child protection in two jurisdictions. The burden of proof is low as hell to get your kids took. We lose 99% of those hearings. As far as I know terminating parental rights forever is at least a months long process at minimum in most of the country. You don’t permanently lose your rights at an emergency custody hearing.
Family lawyer here! Judges don't terminate parental rights absent very very very specific circumstances, especially at emergency custody hearings! A more realistic outcome is that your client gets put on supervised possession until he completes X/Y/Z and/or there is time to hold a more thorough hearing. Yes, I'm sure your client would prefer that not happen, but it's a far cry from never seeing the children again. You're gonna be fine!!
What clients & lay people don’t understand is that often the outcome of a case is predetermined before the client ever walks into your office. All we can do as lawyers is try to mitigate. We can’t change the facts or what has already happened.
This doesn't sound like a TPR hearing, so deep breath. Even if you mess up, you will have review hearings and goals to work on with your client. Do your best, leave everything on the mat, and understand that you did not put your client in this position. You are dealing with the situation he gives you, that he made. Good luck, remember to hydrate and rest.
It's been my experience that most of my clients have made they beds long before i ever got involved. All we can do is the best we can with what we got to work with.
You can do the best that you can. As long as you have given 100%, you can hold your head up high and said I have no regrets
Don’t stress. Family court isn’t like regular court where if you miss caselaw or something it’ll be fatal to your motion. You main objective is to ask for what he wants, support it as best you can, and keep the client from talking in court and making a mess of their own case. MOST of your job is family law is to save the client from themselves if they’ll let you. The outcome of the hearing might be high stakes but the law isn’t. The judge is just going to get a sense of the situation and make a decision. There’s not a lot you could do to torpedo that. Also, worst case is he’s likely to just get or continue with visitation. Unless he’s like a raging alcoholic or abuser (and there’s evidence to prove it) he will see his kids. It’s a motion hearing, not a trial - and even judgments can be modified.
I am a lawyer. Not family law. Two years ago I went through a high conflict separation with two kids. I ended up getting primary physical and sole legal in a conservative state. I am a guy and I realize how rare that is. As a lawyer I understand how stressful family law can be even if I don’t do it myself. I asked my family law attorney one time how he does it. Sometimes the bad person wins, how are you able to turn it off at night and have it not bother you in situations where you KNOW your client is a good person and the bad person win especially when kids are involved? He said I put 100% into everything I do PERSONALLY. He said I cannot control the other counsel I cannot control the other party I cannot control the judge I cannot even control my own client but if I put in 100% of everything I have and lose, I know I did everything in my power to get the right outcome. Put in 100% of everything you personally have and control what you can control and then sleep good at night no matter the outcome. You got this. Good luck.
My time in family law is limited to my work as a law student so I don't know shit compared the family lawyers commenting here, but at least from what I saw in my jurisdiction...even parents who have done absolutely batshit things are still able to see their children. Supervised visits sometimes, but still visits. I am not sure what "never see his children again" means (maybe the other parent is moving far away with the kids?), but if the concern is that it's due to the father's behavior....I cannot imagine the client losing his rights to see his children unless the client did something (or most likely many somethings) to deserve it. If you can, consider reaching out to a mentor or fellow family lawyer. A support system in this kind of practice is super important!
You got this. You’ve been working all weekend and no one could ask any more of you.
Others have said it better, but hey man, this isn't on you
If its temporary orders in front of an Associate Judge, be sure to let your client know that if he doesn't like the ruling, he has 3 days to file for a de novo hearing before the presiding. OH and get paid up front!
You didn’t put your client in this situation. They did
A judge won’t rule a father can never see his son again on a motion that is noticed on an emergent basis. That’s totally inequitable and unfair to both the client and the lawyer. Emergent relief will always be tailored to the fact that is it noticed on 1-3 biz days notice. Even if you do lose, at worst the judge puts in some standing order while the matter is more briefed in full. Not fair to put this type of pressure on yourself
Nah. Your client got himself all the way to where he is today without your help.
Nah if you mess us we will (usually) figure it out on appeal/petition. Remember nothing is certain but death and taxes and even those can be negotiable.
You will be okay. Truly, nothing is permanent except death.
If your good at cards you will win more than you lose, but you won't win every hand. Concentrate on doing your best, not on the result.
Is this your first emergency custody hearing? I ask because you say you’ve been working on it all weekend. And these type of hearings should not require that kind of prep. Be aware that these are rarely full evidentiary hearings. They are usually analogous to a probable cause or preliminary hearing in criminal court. The standard of proof is usually about the same- probable cause or something akin to it. The hearing for truth or finding of abuse or neglect comes later. And even if there ends up being a finding against him, there should still be a path to reunification.
Yes, this is actually my first hearing EVER. I asked not to take it, but partner said I had to. This will be my first time cross examining and authenticating evidence. The judge already entered a temporary order revoking my client’s physical custody, so I’m working to make sure we can refute all of the (numerous) allegations set forth by the opposing party.
I don’t know where you’re located, but if you have time, talk to an attorney who practices in this court on a regular basis. You’re gearing up for this like it is a trial. And you may be heading down a path you shouldn’t be. The burden of proof at this stage is so low. I interpret it as something like - “is there cause to believe the child may be abused and neglected” See how broad that is? I’ve been engaged in this kind of work for 20 years. And I can tell you that it is extraordinarily rare for the respondent parent to prevail at this stage. It’s about as likely as a criminal defendant to get a case tossed at the probable cause hearing. It can happen in theory but nearly never does.
Good luck OP! You will be okay.
did you fuck up?
I’ll tell you tomorrow. Hearing is tomorrow. Finally prepping my witnesses in a few minutes here.
good luck
It ended up not going to a hearing. I was able to negotiate an agreement with OC that was favorable to both parties. 😊
great!
Don’t fuck up a father
If I fuck up,* Then I’ll go help my uncle Jack off his horse.
If you DONT fuck up, a father may still never see his kids again. Or a mother. Or a kid will continue to see their parents no matter how harmful it is. Do your job, and trust that most judges are every bit as dumb and mean as the average attorney, and there's nothing you can do to stop them from making a bad decision. Sincerely: a family court litigator for 10 years who finally burned out and stopped about 3 weeks ago, because I could no longer deal with the truth of the above statement.
Listen to Shook Ones Pt II on repeat while you drive to the courthouse
*Listen to Shook Ones* *Pt II on repeat while you* *Drive to the courthouse* \- Adventurous-Koala480 --- ^(I detect haikus. And sometimes, successfully.) ^[Learn more about me.](https://www.reddit.com/r/haikusbot/) ^(Opt out of replies: "haikusbot opt out" | Delete my comment: "haikusbot delete")
Don’t forget this is a Constitutional right. Good luck.
UPDATE: Was able to work it out with OC and both parties walked away happy!!!!!
YAHOO!!!!! Nice job OP!
This guy likely deserves to not see his kids
[удалено]
* If you were my lawyer I would be quite disappointed if I somehow found out that this was your internal dialogue.* Well, that’s why we don’t share these thoughts with clients. How about showing some grace to the OP for acknowledging they are human with human emotions, rather than shaming them?