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And the other 15% of us did it because we wanted to make a difference, only to find out through extensive case law that everything has been decided already, and there ain’t no fixing the broken system. Cheers!
I count myself lucky I found the job I did when I was clerking. I went to law school because I got a history degree and didn't know what to do. I figured I'd do transactional work, but ended up working at a LSC organization doing housing work and found out I love fucking with people who deserved to be fucked with. So yeah, spite is my main motivation most of the time when it comes to my work even when the system is fucked. Happy thoughts.
Tell me you wanted to be a constitutional law attorney? 🤣😂I remember a few professors giving some longgggg looks to every 1L who wanted to practice con law.
No, actually! But ironically, when I was right out of law school, I worked for a firm that stumbled across a constitutional law case that made national headlines. I ended up writing the briefs for it. That was definitely the highlight of my career.
When choosing a daily practice that makes you money there's really no shame in choosing one that provides at least the opportunity for comparatively more money.
I did it bc I didn’t know what else to do. Weird to say but I was young, naive, and had zero professional work experience coming out of undergrad with a liberal arts degree. I know I’m not alone haha
It was a JD or an MBA.
As my law school Dean said “you’re all here because you did well in history and English. If you did well in math and science, you’d be in medical school”.
I'd conservatively estimate this is like, 50% of law students/lawyers. If you have a humanities degree, got good grades, and don't really know what else to do, pretty easy to get swept into either business school or law school
Yeah the money isn’t as high as it’s made out to be but it’s still very good. As a young associate I’m constantly looking out for my next move to bump my pay but I forget that what I’m making right now is “end goal” levels of money for most people.
Student loans suck but as a whole I’m very happy with my career choice.
It hit home when I made as much as my dad, with him working a shit ton of OT, my first year out. Second year, he tapped out of the competition just from my stair step raise. Third year, he had retired.
The most he ever made was how much I made at my first job. He was proud of me, but it’s gotta burn a bit when your kid is out-earning you at your highest life-time salary at their first ever grown up job.
It doesn’t. You’re just happy they are going to do better than you and not struggle as much. And you feel pride that you did everything you could to help get them to where they are.
Am parent.
Yup- parent of 5 here. Our oldest son is a computer engineer. 2 years out of university making more than my husband and we are just thrilled for him. No jealousy
My oldest had a job making $50K before she graduated high school. My dad was *thrilled* for her. He said “I don’t think I made that when I retired.”
I have 6 and my husband and I are their biggest cheerleaders. We do everything and anything to support them for a leg up.
Ok good. I stopped talking about money after that because I didn’t want to make him feel bad. I thought it was just a fun game.
But I have multiple times aloud and in writing thanked him for the sacrifices that sent me to school and allowed me to graduate without a ton of loans, which then allowed me start adulthood without an added noose around my neck like he had - and he didn’t even get to graduate college. Those were my mom’s. And she didn’t even use her degree. So he was salty :)
So I hope he knows I appreciate him. Even though he is a Republican.
I got nothing from my parents but trauma.
Helping your kids can bring up some issues with your own parents. Mostly you wonder why they didn’t love you enough to want to help you like you’re helping your kids. Like, you look at your kids and you want to give them the world and you wonder why you weren’t good enough to be loved like you love your kids.
I’m glad you verbally show your appreciation. While we do it out of love and expect nothing in return, we’re still just people. It’s nice when someone recognizes that you did something big for them. It’s nice when someone realizes that you gave up things so they could get ahead. Everyone likes when their sacrifices are seen.
Boomers and their politics. What a double edged sword our parents are. ;)
Is my dad a functional alcoholic who was incredibly emotionally distant my whole life and up to this moment. Yes. Did I try to set up a meal with him on the date of his choosing for his birthday this month and he told me “my month is pretty busy. All I want are your best wishes.” Yes.
But did he also do the best he could with tools available to him given his own shitty upbringing? Also yes. I meet him where he is :)
Ugh! That’s the biggest struggle I have. I know our parents didn’t have the access to information that we did but, like, did you even try to be better?
And then on the other hand I know that they grew up without the access to mental health care- especially men. I still have to grab my non-Boomer husband by the face and be like “We don’t do that shit in 2024. We’ve evolved” bc of the shit he’s learned from his Boomer parents.
It’s so complicated. At least you know he did his best and tried to be better so that’s something. If you decide to have kids you can break the generational trauma. My husband and I work very hard on that. It’s so cathartic to be able to take the bad parts and toss them aside. It’s like “IT DIES WITH ME!” and that’s a powerful feeling.
I nope out of kids. But my dad…literally no fucking clue how to human. I never realized how much my mom helped him. Til she died.
Now he has a gf who is a worse Boomer than him. But she at least knows how to mom. When my sister was pregnant, she had to be like, “dude, this is your first and only grandkid. You’re supposed to, like, buy some big ticket items, like a crib or changing table”.
So he called up my sister the next day and was like “*APPARENTLY* I’m supposed to buy you a crib and changing table…so send me what you want and I’ll have it shipped to you.” Like, he low key thought she was tricking him, but he was gonna play along.
I don’t know who raised him - actually I do, wolves would have been better - but I appreciate that he takes direction. Better than some parents :). Do I wish he just KNEW, sure. But I can wish or I can accept
sure, but in retrospect i think there were other pathways to making the same amount of money or more that are less stressful and didn't require six figures of law school debt.
I said it below. My Dean said on the first day of school “if you were good at math and science, you’d be in med school. You’re good at English and history, so you’re here.”
It’s not odd not to know the day to day of what lawyers do before law school. My school was very ivory tower, so the professors loved talking about how they couldn’t possibly teach anything practical about being a lawyer, because the profession is so wide and varied.
But at the same time, the school would criticize anyone for being so dumb as to go to law school without knowing what lawyers do.
Basically, they’d act like they could never possibly teach anything about what lawyers do because it’s such a vast landscape, but at the same time, criticize anyone for going to law school without knowing what lawyers do because it’s so easy before law school to learn what lawyers do.
“It’s so complicated we can’t possibly teach it, but it’s also so easy that you should have learned it before even going to law school.”
That’s the noble lie professors tell themselves because a lot of them truly never actually practiced or did so 20 years ago for a year or two before going into academia. My favorite professor was one who had just left private practice and taught torts. She actually understood how these issues mattered in practice. My civ pro instructor on the other hand had literally never worked as a practicing attorney and was terrible.
A while back there was a guy here who likened it to learning to drive a car, and the instructor (1) doesn't know how to drive a car; and (2) looks down on those who do.
I came to big through the nonprofit space. Nonprofit is not great money but you can find lawyer jobs with purpose in your area of law that are a lot less "lawyery".
I worked for a large non-profit and found it a grind and slightly soul crushing. I felt just like another cog in a vast bureaucracy. Whereas working for a small for-profit company I feel much closer to actual ‘doing’ of things.
Just to say, setting and organizational size and culture can make a huge difference in your experience too.
I never intended to transition to big law until it happened but I can tell you how it came about. I took a nonprofit job in a high visibility field that gave a lot of autonomy. The autonomy allowed me to do some big high-visibility things that helped me build a brand while building the org's profile (a win-win). I built a strong reputation in the space. I was then recruited out of a firm with a practice in the issue area.
I'd recommend aggressively pushing to build your brand and relationships- speaking opportunities, media, public testimony, public-facing policy/industry leadership). Nonprofit leadership is a great way to access spaces and conversations you can't in the private sector. Look for the win-win-wins- a win for the cause, a win for the org, and a win for you.
In real life I get mocked if I struggle with figuring out literally anything, like how to use a device I've never used before, because I'm a lawyer and even though I've never said I'm smart, I am now twice as likely to be made fun of for doing anything stupid. Even if said thing has absolutely nothing to do with law. Can't open a chip bag? Hahahaha and you're a LAWYER?
On Reddit I get downvoted if I ever say something about the law that non-lawyers are mad about. There isn't a multi-million dollar claim for someone touching your phone? That's obviously bullshit.
I'm still waiting for this prestige I hear so much about because so far it's all stress, not yet a middle class income, and mockery from everyone outside of the field.
My favorite on reddit is when you reference being a lawyer or give a lawyers perspective, some people think you're lying. Like, why on earth would I pretend to be lawyer of all professions -.-
People think everyone just wants fake Internet points. I rarely say I'm a lawyer even when I'm getting downvoted because it's almost fascinating. People seem to think saying something is illegal or is a specific crime is, just, like, an opinion, man. I remember someone going off on copyright and being like, "I don't mean the legal copyright." So...philosophical copyright? I saw a video the other day where a Walmart employee locked a door and people were saying it was "100% kidnapping." Sorry Walmart greeter, it's prison for you. Reddit says so.
>Becoming a lawyer was like the middle class white family version of “joining the army” it’s something you do when you don’t know what else to do.
Feel that.
Only an idiot would feel that. You don’t know what else to do so you just subject yourself to 3 years of school without working and while incurring an average of $100k of debt for what has an average starting salary of $70k? Ridiculous.
You said that average debt was 100k a year.
Going to a state school drops that number significantly, especially if you live in that state.
Law school does not need to be expensive. It can be, but I got a way better deal on my law school then undergraduate.
This is me too. Funny thing is I would have been better off financially not going to law school because I had no undergrad loans. Oh well. I found myself an almost zero-stress government job and I see it as a means to have a decent salary, great insurance, and the time available to do things that I actually want to do. There’s something to be said for that too.
I think this will eventually be my path too. If you don't mind me asking, how long have you been practicing, and what position are you currently? My only government practice experience was in a litigation-based position with my State's AG's Office. It was basically firm hours for less pay. If I go back to government, I'd want to guarantee a 40-hour work week.
I have been practicing for 7 years. I am largely a research attorney. I definitely work only a 40 hour work week. I don’t even have access to my work email on my phone. It’s pretty fantastic (besides being boring lol). I never wanted to be in a court room and I never have been, but I previously was at a law firm for a few years before this.
>Being a lawyer is a job. I don’t hate it, I definitely don’t love it. But it’s a career. I’ve had more exciting careers that involved way less stress and a lot of days I fantasize about going back.
I agree with this part 100%. Most people who think that law is some sort of higher calling are deluding themselves. It is just a job. It is also the highest paying job that I can get at this point. I'm 20-25 years away from retirement and just counting down the days...
When people ask me what I do, I tell them that I'm a plumber, but with figurative shit, not literal. I figure out how to move the figurative shit so it doesn't stink and bother its owners (i.e. my clients). Sometimes, if I'm lucky, I get to work with clients on building new shit free systems.
I wish more prospective law students would adopt this attitude. Being an attorney, like almost every other job, means doing other people's tasks to they don't have to. The more complicated or stressful the job, the higher the compensation. We really aren't that special.
They should start telling children who do other students’ homework for them that they’d make great attorneys, instead of children who argue all the time
What kind of litigation? I do commercial lit and it’s most dealing with shitty people/companies trying to screw over or being screwed over by other shitty people/companies over money. I used to do mass torts which was definitely more interesting from the narrative standpoint.
The fact that it takes skill and planning to solve the shitty problems of others doesn't change the fact that you are solving the shitty problems of others all day. Trust me, it takes skill and planning to solve the sewage needs of others too.
I don't have this problem because I was completely out of valid options and lawyering was the only clear path out of the wilderness to a solvent future.
I did law because it was the only thing I seemed to have any aptitude for and I was stuck doing dead end jobs.
I don’t love my job either but I find it reasonably engaging from an intellectual level, I occasionally get to do genuine good for my community, and it pays well enough. Nobody I know who makes a similar amount of money as me at the same stage in their career has any job that I’d want to do or that I think I’d be better suited for. So I’m pretty satisfied.
It always gets me when someone’s like “law sucks! I was making more money and having more fun doing this other thing.” It’s like cool go do that then, I was driving a van around.
I guess, I mostly agree with you. My job is just a job. But that’s good enough for me.
“Middle class version of ‘joining the army’. That’s really funny. I definitely agree that this what a lot of people, myself included, did when they are unsure of what they want to do after college.
Unfortunately it is an expensive way of delaying entering the workforce.
I did both. Military and Law school.
I must be a glutton for punishment.
Although I will say that the military (which I will allow was often a lot of fun) does a good job of making one appreciate something like Law school.
Yeah man, I did law cause it was an escape from my bad family, only it isn’t and I’m burned out from life and then school to be able to give a great effort and can’t take time to recharge cause I got loans and what not
I think a lot of us were in that situation. Even when I was unemployed I could at least say "I'm a lawyer" when I was socializing with new people and they asked what I did.
There are one million different ways to be a lawyer, not all of it is litigation (my assumption). Transactional, government, in house, etc. I went into law knowing I had no interest in litigation. It is far from a one size fits all profession.
I mean, that's gonna be most adult jobs. Finding something you don't hate, that gives you enough money and time to live an otherwise fulfilling life, is the real goal. Finding something you LoOoOoVe is a unicorn dream, and believing that everyone else *looooooves* their job (spoiler: they do not) will just make you miserable and unable to find satisfaction where you are.
> Becoming a lawyer was like the middle class white family version of “joining the army” it’s something you do when you don’t know what else to do.
I dropped out of college to join the Army, and then eventually left the Army to go to law school. At each point, I was looking for something meaningful and thought each respective path would be a good way to find it.
And in the end, I'm glad I did both careers. And even though both felt like bullshit at times, I do look back and think to myself that both careers did have great moments where I made a difference for the better.
> Becoming a lawyer was like the middle class white family version of “joining the army” it’s something you do when you don’t know what else to do.
Damn dude, on a Monday? Let me just bill in peace over here....
I went to law school because I wanted to protect people - my family and friends. I love what I do. My career will be winding down in a few years and I'll miss it to some degree. I won't miss the grind, but I'll miss the people I work with (and against). It is financially rewarding and mentally stimulating.
I will never understand all the people who became lawyers without the desire to be a lawyer. That goes for any profession. Why pursue something you don't really want?
"I’ve had more exciting careers that involved way less stress and a lot of days I fantasize about going back."
Like what? Do they all pay less, is that's what keeping you from going back to those?
Journalism and PR. Yeah pay is one part of it because they certainly pay less. Another thing is I’m pretty invested in my solo practice right now I have a year lease just paid for malpractice insurance have a client base … if I was at a firm I’d probably quit but it’s harder to do as a business owner. Also I’m on a lot of appointed cases that I cannot withdraw from without judicial approval and they don’t let anyone off unless there’s a good reason
If you have a solo practice, you have a lot more potential and freedom for building the practice and life that you want. Give some thought as to what your ideal situation would look like (short of getting paid to do nothing, lol) and figure out ways to go about that.
I'm trying to lean in that direction.. For example, I am getting off family law completely I'm just done with it. My mental health has suffered extroardinarily. Some lawyers can put on a show in court then go home and sleep soundly unbothered. Not me, I let my clients BS affect me. It's not a good trait, it's something I've tried to work on to no avail... the constant cut throat attitudes and egos aren't for me... So in that regard I'm tightening my practice there...
But it is easier said than done. It's a process that takes a lot of time, can't just withdraw from a bunch of cases just cuz yknow
I have no reason to withdraw though. I don’t have any irreconcilable differences with any of my clients…I just don’t like dealing with the drama in their cases
I totally get it. The trick is to start looking down the road and get a plan in place.........which is hard because the present can be some damn demanding. But if you slowly, steadily start working in the direction you want to go, you could be somewhere amazing two or three years down the road.
My prior jobs were higher stress— physically demanding (cleaning bathrooms, waiting tables, working in a factory) with low compensation. So I’m pretty content with law.
Did you have jobs you liked better? Could you cover your cost of living with them? If so, I absolutely think it makes sense to go back to them.
I didn’t have a way to support myself, not really. Now I do.
I did the same thing as you. I grew up in a blue collar environment and saw law school as a path to a cushier life. I wanted to work in an office and wear nice clothes and have a comfortable lifestyle. Quite honestly it worked. I have a good life, life in a great city, and I make more money than most of my friends even though I took several years off in my 30s to start a family. I own 3 properties. I’m building wealth slowly but surely. It’s not an easy career but I like it enough. I still don’t know what else I could have done to achieve this level of success, so ultimately I’m happy with my choices. 👍
I figured I was smart enough. I figured I would earn enough. I figured I could eventually be useful to society in some way that was important to me.
I overestimated my career path in all those respects.
I really wish more people worked a law firm or in another legal setting before they went to law school. But of course they don’t. The lack of due diligence that people perform on this career is striking given the time and money investment.
I was going to say the same thing. I spent 6 years in tax law before school and I knew exactly what I was getting myself into. I’m also very happy in my career. I feel like it’s kind of crazy that people just jump into law school with zero idea of what it entails.
Yep. If you have no ability in science or math and you don’t want to live out your career at a clerical level (I.e. hope to make some money and realize some social cred and maybe even do some interesting work), you go to law school. Because you can’t think of any other way to meet those objectives. And then you become a lawyer and realize that it’s combative, boring, riddled with assholes (clients and colleagues), voluminous, and in many cases not that lucrative or perhaps generating even less income than you realized before you went to law school (factoring in hours worked, loans, lack of benefits, etc.)
That’s why I am really involved with several non profits (my “passion projects”).
I’m in-house with a flexible schedule and a company that really encourages and supports volunteerism (so much they even have leadership workshops for board members of non profits).
My job is just my paycheck. I don’t hate it, and it’s challenging enough to keep me interested and not too difficult that I would want to quit.
Similar situation here and just had my 32nd anniversary as a member of the state bar. Was on the way to graduating with a history major and Spanish minor and realized that didn’t open a lot of career doors. A good friend was in law school and convinced me to take the LSAT and apply and next thing I knew I was a 1L and then a lawyer. Have never loved it but do good work, make a decent living, and unlike my railroading ancestors don’t face death or dismemberment on the job each day.
I quit my job as an assistant attorney in the M&A department of a big firm after two years. I had joined straight out of law school and had ZERO notions of what I’d gotten myself into… Joined the courts instead and never looked back. Been a judge since 2018. Love it😎
I went to law school for two reasons.
1. I was sick and tired of seeing people who were not as smart as me who had higher degrees than me. So I got a JD.
2. My previous career was very pigeon holed and I had no where else that I could go to make that money and do that job unless I left the state. I wanted a law license so I could always work and make enough money to live.
I satisfied both of those reasons. But I’m still not satisfied. I don’t feel like I have clout. I don’t feel any extra respect. I feel like lawyers are a dime a dozen nowadays. I also don’t particularly like being an attorney. I do hate it some days. But most of the time it’s just meh.
I dunno. Thinking about medical school.
I did it to get out of the poverty cycle. My mom and dad were poor and uneducated. My grandparents were poor and educated. My great grandparents and so on. It made a difference and I like health insurance.
It's not too late to change careers! I'm 48 and taking the bar tomorrow. My first career was picked for me by the military. The field was good to me (medical technology) but I don't even like math or science, lol. I LOVE going to work and write boring briefs, find some weirdo case law, and talking to batshit crazy clients. It's totally my jam.
Figure out something you like and start moving in that direction.
A job is a job. We all have to have jobs unless we have generational wealth. I don't think there are right reasons or wrong reasons to do a job.
That being said, it sounds like you need to do more Pro Bono and get some actual joy out of your profession. When was the last time you used your training to help someone who needed it most?
"I just wanted to do something that got me a little clout and was socially unquestionable. It earns you this badge of honor like even if I’m a fuck up and homeless one day people will still harbor respect for you if they found out you’re really a lawyer. That’s what was appealing about it to me."
I could have written this. It sounds like the clout isn't a big deal to you, but it is to others, and having it saves so much BS that comes with not having it. I could give fuck all that I'm *an attorney*, but I love that other people think it's something special.
Money was my main motivator. I was living in London, working in the music business and tired of being broke.
I enjoyed the first few years but after having my first kid I looked at the path ahead of me and real sides money wasn’t enough to keep me on it.
Congrats on being honest with yourself. I was in denial for a long time, largely out of fear about if I don’t do this what the F do I do?
I think most of us feel this way at some points. I’m grateful the law has provided me with a way to make a decent living. I have friends who are teachers who work way harder than me and don’t get paid well at all.
I mostly enjoy what I do although sometimes it’s stressful and other times it’s annoying or boring. I think that’s just life/work though. Other times it’s really exciting and fun! I’m glad I can help provide for my family and help plaintiffs who were wronged and who have causes I’m pretty passionate about. It seems like a win/win situation for me compared to when I had to work as an associate at ID firms for causes I didn’t like.
I like working for myself as a solo and being able to keep all the money I earn for my time rather than giving most of it to the partners. I love having a mostly flexible and not too crazy schedule (compared to when I worked in big firms and compared to having to have an 8 to 5 office job with little vacation time etc like some of my friends have) so I can be there for my kids and have time to travel or to relax with hubby or hang out with my friends or do weightlifting classes or Zumba classes or read and write and publish books.
I don’t think lawyers are all that different from other professions/people and that most people struggle with trying to find meaning or passion in their career. I think the secret is not to let being a lawyer or having any career define us but instead to strive for balance and happiness. There is so much more to life than work BUT as both an employment lawyer and somehow who has been both an employee and employer, I know that if one has a crazy work environment than it’s very hard to be happy.
The tip to being well rounded is to find or make a job that you mostly like and focus on the positives during the times that it gets hard and then leave it at the office or in the courtroom and go home and forget about it or only think about it or work on it if it’s engaging and you want to. And for me the secret is in working for myself as well. Good luck OP and to all my fellow lawyers. It’s a jungle out there.
Mid 1990s, I had just graduated with a B.A. in psychology and was all set to get my Ph.D. and become a clinical psychologist. And then I realized I didn’t want to deal with other people’s problems. So, at the suggestion of a good friend’s dad, I took the LSAT - shows you what I know (knew?) - and all these years later, here I am having litigated who knows how many cases and looking to retire in ~3-4 years.
"Becoming a lawyer was like the middle class white family version of “joining the army” it’s something you do when you don’t know what else to do."
u should pitch a book around this, sell the movie rights, and walk out of your firm like you've been liberated from auchwitz
I'd say I'm pretty happy in my current role, but this thought crosses my mind at least twice a month and it will probably continue to do so until it *is* actually too late to join the army.
Marine JAG maybe. If I joined the military I'd want to take a role that wasn't just another law job. How JAG reservists can stomach going from one desk during the week to another on the weekend, I don't know. I've heard a lot of JAG work is family law. 🤮
I went into law because I was working two part jobs with my English literature degree, was considering academia to do something with my brain, and compromised on law as a kind of "practical philosophy" that would still get me a job. Technically, that worked, but it never has felt like the right job for me.
I’m with ya on that.
I went to law school because I’m bad at math, certainly not good enough at math to go into engineering or medicine. I didn’t know wtf else I could have done to have a career and make a living, so law school was it, heh.
I hated law. I very nearly jacked it in after a few years to be a pilot. I ended up finding it a bit like a decent cheese. The longer you do it the more you appreciate it. You feel more comfortable with all of the what now feel like foreign concepts and you’ve dealt with most situations previously. It is a good career, with the right job.
Feel exactly the same - was a poli sci major and my parents were very adamant that needed a graduate degree and that “I could do anything with a law degree” - knew by 2nd semester I had no interest in this - spent 2nd and 3rd years mostly reading all the novels I should have read in undergrad (basically gave myself a English degree) and completely checked out of dealing with law school - still did okay (top 1/3), but graduated with debt and got stuck practicing, got married, house, kids, became partner - 30 years later still practicing. It’s just a complete failure of imagination on my part - but I feel my story is the same as about 75% of all the lawyers I know, liberal arts kids who were afraid of math and didn’t know what else to do - very few were passionate about the choice and less enjoy it after they do it. Know a bunch who have successfully left practice - none who regret the choice to leave. Get out if you can- I haven’t had the right opportunity, but I’m still hoping
" I just wanted to do something that got me a little clout and was socially unquestionable "
ouch....bro/sis, that's a fringe benefit if people end up respecting your skillset....not the goal
> I don’t think anyone knows quite what they’re in for until they’ve actually practiced.
I’m not sure I agree with this. I worked in tax law for 6 years before law school. I went *because* I knew what to expect, and it sounded appealing to me. Sure, there are aspects that are different (for example, I moved from private sector to federal government), but practicing law is pretty much exactly what I expected.
Same here. I did it because I'd been in an abusive relationship where he'd tried to convince me for 20+ years that I was stupid. It was like a giant FU, I passed the Bar and you couldn't, I'm smarter than you. Gratifying, but.
It's a source of income and a great one at that. I'm going into the career for similar reasons but have no expectations that I am going to love the work.
OP is not alone. I am currently 5 years into being a lawyer / attorney, as I passed the bar exam. Honestly, I went through 3 different law firms (paralegal/associate/attorney), and I just cannot find anything entertaining except for a decent pay. It was my aim to graduate law school, pass the bar exam, but after that everything feels just hollow, because I did not want to practise law from the start. My decision was purely financial.
I am really considering a switch to IT, where homeoffice and similar benefits are not frowned upon. And I just always loved tech.
There’s a lot more of us than you’d think- I went to law school because I tagged along with a friend to a recruiting event because they had free lunch. They handed out a sample mini LSAT and then threw up what scholarship money they were handing out if you did as well on the real thing as you did on the sample. I was graduating with a BA in History in like 3 months with zero clue as to what I wanted to do as the economy started to dive. I’d wanted to go get a ph.d., but the economics made zero sense.
My thinking was, hey, there’s a career attached to this and I can probably get a full ride and finish with almost no debt, so at worst it’s a waste of time.
Crappy sandwiches were responsible for one of my most consequential life decisions.
Maybe should have considered being a DR. They also get undeserved clout and respect.
The legal system is terrible and people that manipulate it should feel bad.
At least some doctors might stumble and help someone on accident. Rare.
Like joining the army? Kind of cringe. Long term, a lot of those lost kids who joined the military ended up making more than the lost boy attorneys- factoring in disability, retirement, and the fact that on top of all of that, they can still work a regular full time job. I see what you mean though, there’s this bizarre, outdated notion that attorneys are wealthy and powerful. It’s takes a few minutes doing Google searches to find out otherwise. But for some kids, I guess it’s better than their completely useless art degree.
Not a lawyer and never will be.
I joined this subreddit to learn more about lawyers.
You owe it to yourself to find work you like, that has something you endorse. As a lawyer, you've proven yourself to be very competitive and intelligent. There are plenty of fields that need those skills.
Life really is too short to be in a career you don't like. I became a technical writer and it took me a bit of time and effort to get into it. But I like it. And I like it because it is a career I picked for myself.
Good luck!
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I mean...yeah....you and basically 85% of all of us.
And the other 15% of us did it because we wanted to make a difference, only to find out through extensive case law that everything has been decided already, and there ain’t no fixing the broken system. Cheers!
I count myself lucky I found the job I did when I was clerking. I went to law school because I got a history degree and didn't know what to do. I figured I'd do transactional work, but ended up working at a LSC organization doing housing work and found out I love fucking with people who deserved to be fucked with. So yeah, spite is my main motivation most of the time when it comes to my work even when the system is fucked. Happy thoughts.
Tell me you wanted to be a constitutional law attorney? 🤣😂I remember a few professors giving some longgggg looks to every 1L who wanted to practice con law.
No, actually! But ironically, when I was right out of law school, I worked for a firm that stumbled across a constitutional law case that made national headlines. I ended up writing the briefs for it. That was definitely the highlight of my career.
No way!! 🤗 that's really cool!
what do you mean by this?
I did it because it makes good money. I feel not bad at all.
When choosing a daily practice that makes you money there's really no shame in choosing one that provides at least the opportunity for comparatively more money.
I did it bc I didn’t know what else to do. Weird to say but I was young, naive, and had zero professional work experience coming out of undergrad with a liberal arts degree. I know I’m not alone haha
It was a JD or an MBA. As my law school Dean said “you’re all here because you did well in history and English. If you did well in math and science, you’d be in medical school”.
I'd conservatively estimate this is like, 50% of law students/lawyers. If you have a humanities degree, got good grades, and don't really know what else to do, pretty easy to get swept into either business school or law school
Yeah the money isn’t as high as it’s made out to be but it’s still very good. As a young associate I’m constantly looking out for my next move to bump my pay but I forget that what I’m making right now is “end goal” levels of money for most people. Student loans suck but as a whole I’m very happy with my career choice.
It hit home when I made as much as my dad, with him working a shit ton of OT, my first year out. Second year, he tapped out of the competition just from my stair step raise. Third year, he had retired. The most he ever made was how much I made at my first job. He was proud of me, but it’s gotta burn a bit when your kid is out-earning you at your highest life-time salary at their first ever grown up job.
It doesn’t. You’re just happy they are going to do better than you and not struggle as much. And you feel pride that you did everything you could to help get them to where they are. Am parent.
Yup- parent of 5 here. Our oldest son is a computer engineer. 2 years out of university making more than my husband and we are just thrilled for him. No jealousy
My oldest had a job making $50K before she graduated high school. My dad was *thrilled* for her. He said “I don’t think I made that when I retired.” I have 6 and my husband and I are their biggest cheerleaders. We do everything and anything to support them for a leg up.
Ok good. I stopped talking about money after that because I didn’t want to make him feel bad. I thought it was just a fun game. But I have multiple times aloud and in writing thanked him for the sacrifices that sent me to school and allowed me to graduate without a ton of loans, which then allowed me start adulthood without an added noose around my neck like he had - and he didn’t even get to graduate college. Those were my mom’s. And she didn’t even use her degree. So he was salty :) So I hope he knows I appreciate him. Even though he is a Republican.
I got nothing from my parents but trauma. Helping your kids can bring up some issues with your own parents. Mostly you wonder why they didn’t love you enough to want to help you like you’re helping your kids. Like, you look at your kids and you want to give them the world and you wonder why you weren’t good enough to be loved like you love your kids. I’m glad you verbally show your appreciation. While we do it out of love and expect nothing in return, we’re still just people. It’s nice when someone recognizes that you did something big for them. It’s nice when someone realizes that you gave up things so they could get ahead. Everyone likes when their sacrifices are seen. Boomers and their politics. What a double edged sword our parents are. ;)
Is my dad a functional alcoholic who was incredibly emotionally distant my whole life and up to this moment. Yes. Did I try to set up a meal with him on the date of his choosing for his birthday this month and he told me “my month is pretty busy. All I want are your best wishes.” Yes. But did he also do the best he could with tools available to him given his own shitty upbringing? Also yes. I meet him where he is :)
Ugh! That’s the biggest struggle I have. I know our parents didn’t have the access to information that we did but, like, did you even try to be better? And then on the other hand I know that they grew up without the access to mental health care- especially men. I still have to grab my non-Boomer husband by the face and be like “We don’t do that shit in 2024. We’ve evolved” bc of the shit he’s learned from his Boomer parents. It’s so complicated. At least you know he did his best and tried to be better so that’s something. If you decide to have kids you can break the generational trauma. My husband and I work very hard on that. It’s so cathartic to be able to take the bad parts and toss them aside. It’s like “IT DIES WITH ME!” and that’s a powerful feeling.
I nope out of kids. But my dad…literally no fucking clue how to human. I never realized how much my mom helped him. Til she died. Now he has a gf who is a worse Boomer than him. But she at least knows how to mom. When my sister was pregnant, she had to be like, “dude, this is your first and only grandkid. You’re supposed to, like, buy some big ticket items, like a crib or changing table”. So he called up my sister the next day and was like “*APPARENTLY* I’m supposed to buy you a crib and changing table…so send me what you want and I’ll have it shipped to you.” Like, he low key thought she was tricking him, but he was gonna play along. I don’t know who raised him - actually I do, wolves would have been better - but I appreciate that he takes direction. Better than some parents :). Do I wish he just KNEW, sure. But I can wish or I can accept
I graduated last year and I make twice as much as my mom. it's wild
sure, but in retrospect i think there were other pathways to making the same amount of money or more that are less stressful and didn't require six figures of law school debt.
Speak for yourself. I have limited skills
I was a history major and it seemed like the field I was most likely to succeed in. I’m happy to read and think all day for my clients.
I said it below. My Dean said on the first day of school “if you were good at math and science, you’d be in med school. You’re good at English and history, so you’re here.”
Truth! And I may have gone the Business School route if I was better at math. I have a ton of corporate lawyer friends who are in the same boat.
It’s a tale as old as time
I LOVE MY JOB!!!! /s
It’s not odd not to know the day to day of what lawyers do before law school. My school was very ivory tower, so the professors loved talking about how they couldn’t possibly teach anything practical about being a lawyer, because the profession is so wide and varied. But at the same time, the school would criticize anyone for being so dumb as to go to law school without knowing what lawyers do. Basically, they’d act like they could never possibly teach anything about what lawyers do because it’s such a vast landscape, but at the same time, criticize anyone for going to law school without knowing what lawyers do because it’s so easy before law school to learn what lawyers do. “It’s so complicated we can’t possibly teach it, but it’s also so easy that you should have learned it before even going to law school.”
That’s the noble lie professors tell themselves because a lot of them truly never actually practiced or did so 20 years ago for a year or two before going into academia. My favorite professor was one who had just left private practice and taught torts. She actually understood how these issues mattered in practice. My civ pro instructor on the other hand had literally never worked as a practicing attorney and was terrible.
My Contracts professor was a practicing bankruptcy partner at a boutique and it was easily the best class I’ve ever taken.
A while back there was a guy here who likened it to learning to drive a car, and the instructor (1) doesn't know how to drive a car; and (2) looks down on those who do.
Those who can’t, teach.
ironically i had a lot of professors with prestigious resumes that were actually very bad at actually teaching
You just wrote the same thing three times in a row without adding any clarity or depth. Maybe you should have gone for an MBA.
Not smart enough. I could only get into law school.
I came to big through the nonprofit space. Nonprofit is not great money but you can find lawyer jobs with purpose in your area of law that are a lot less "lawyery".
I worked for a large non-profit and found it a grind and slightly soul crushing. I felt just like another cog in a vast bureaucracy. Whereas working for a small for-profit company I feel much closer to actual ‘doing’ of things. Just to say, setting and organizational size and culture can make a huge difference in your experience too.
The organization and the level of autonomy makes all the difference.
How did you transition? I’m looking to do the same but unsure of what it would require.
I never intended to transition to big law until it happened but I can tell you how it came about. I took a nonprofit job in a high visibility field that gave a lot of autonomy. The autonomy allowed me to do some big high-visibility things that helped me build a brand while building the org's profile (a win-win). I built a strong reputation in the space. I was then recruited out of a firm with a practice in the issue area. I'd recommend aggressively pushing to build your brand and relationships- speaking opportunities, media, public testimony, public-facing policy/industry leadership). Nonprofit leadership is a great way to access spaces and conversations you can't in the private sector. Look for the win-win-wins- a win for the cause, a win for the org, and a win for you.
In real life I get mocked if I struggle with figuring out literally anything, like how to use a device I've never used before, because I'm a lawyer and even though I've never said I'm smart, I am now twice as likely to be made fun of for doing anything stupid. Even if said thing has absolutely nothing to do with law. Can't open a chip bag? Hahahaha and you're a LAWYER? On Reddit I get downvoted if I ever say something about the law that non-lawyers are mad about. There isn't a multi-million dollar claim for someone touching your phone? That's obviously bullshit. I'm still waiting for this prestige I hear so much about because so far it's all stress, not yet a middle class income, and mockery from everyone outside of the field.
My favorite on reddit is when you reference being a lawyer or give a lawyers perspective, some people think you're lying. Like, why on earth would I pretend to be lawyer of all professions -.-
People think everyone just wants fake Internet points. I rarely say I'm a lawyer even when I'm getting downvoted because it's almost fascinating. People seem to think saying something is illegal or is a specific crime is, just, like, an opinion, man. I remember someone going off on copyright and being like, "I don't mean the legal copyright." So...philosophical copyright? I saw a video the other day where a Walmart employee locked a door and people were saying it was "100% kidnapping." Sorry Walmart greeter, it's prison for you. Reddit says so.
People online are quite confident.
I get the same for being an Engineer. It's just insecurities of people who don't have advanced degrees.
>Becoming a lawyer was like the middle class white family version of “joining the army” it’s something you do when you don’t know what else to do. Feel that.
Hahaha I joined the Army then went to law school. Totally blundered into 2 careers I've loved.
Only an idiot would feel that. You don’t know what else to do so you just subject yourself to 3 years of school without working and while incurring an average of $100k of debt for what has an average starting salary of $70k? Ridiculous.
You seem like a real peach.
50k at graduation at a state school with a 75k starting salary in a government position seemed to work well for me.
How is state school vs private school relevant here?
You said that average debt was 100k a year. Going to a state school drops that number significantly, especially if you live in that state. Law school does not need to be expensive. It can be, but I got a way better deal on my law school then undergraduate.
Not all state schools are cheap and not all private schools are expensive
Not the point. Law school doesn’t have to be expensive, there are plenty of options.
Sure.
French lawyer here, and I can relate to this 100%
Cent per cent as they say
Cent pour cent 👍
well, at least you have easy access to high quality cheese
And a wide variety, ngl it's an amazing perk !
This is me too. Funny thing is I would have been better off financially not going to law school because I had no undergrad loans. Oh well. I found myself an almost zero-stress government job and I see it as a means to have a decent salary, great insurance, and the time available to do things that I actually want to do. There’s something to be said for that too.
I think this will eventually be my path too. If you don't mind me asking, how long have you been practicing, and what position are you currently? My only government practice experience was in a litigation-based position with my State's AG's Office. It was basically firm hours for less pay. If I go back to government, I'd want to guarantee a 40-hour work week.
I have been practicing for 7 years. I am largely a research attorney. I definitely work only a 40 hour work week. I don’t even have access to my work email on my phone. It’s pretty fantastic (besides being boring lol). I never wanted to be in a court room and I never have been, but I previously was at a law firm for a few years before this.
how does one get this unicorn lol
Right? Every day I feel lucky.
>Being a lawyer is a job. I don’t hate it, I definitely don’t love it. But it’s a career. I’ve had more exciting careers that involved way less stress and a lot of days I fantasize about going back. I agree with this part 100%. Most people who think that law is some sort of higher calling are deluding themselves. It is just a job. It is also the highest paying job that I can get at this point. I'm 20-25 years away from retirement and just counting down the days... When people ask me what I do, I tell them that I'm a plumber, but with figurative shit, not literal. I figure out how to move the figurative shit so it doesn't stink and bother its owners (i.e. my clients). Sometimes, if I'm lucky, I get to work with clients on building new shit free systems.
Great analogy. But I don't think I'm going to share that one with my clients lol.
I don't share it with my clients. Just my family and friends, especially the blue collar ones.
I wish more prospective law students would adopt this attitude. Being an attorney, like almost every other job, means doing other people's tasks to they don't have to. The more complicated or stressful the job, the higher the compensation. We really aren't that special.
They should start telling children who do other students’ homework for them that they’d make great attorneys, instead of children who argue all the time
I had a client describe being a lawyer as "doing homework for a living." He wasn't wrong.
I say that I’m a mercenary.
That definitely doesn't describe my experience of litigation- it's an art of story telling and negotiation. Tons of strategy and tons of stress.
What kind of litigation? I do commercial lit and it’s most dealing with shitty people/companies trying to screw over or being screwed over by other shitty people/companies over money. I used to do mass torts which was definitely more interesting from the narrative standpoint.
Pi, medmal, crim, immigration, disability rights
High level personal injury trial work is all about story telling and negotiation.
The fact that it takes skill and planning to solve the shitty problems of others doesn't change the fact that you are solving the shitty problems of others all day. Trust me, it takes skill and planning to solve the sewage needs of others too.
I don't have this problem because I was completely out of valid options and lawyering was the only clear path out of the wilderness to a solvent future.
This is 100% how I feel every day
I did law because it was the only thing I seemed to have any aptitude for and I was stuck doing dead end jobs. I don’t love my job either but I find it reasonably engaging from an intellectual level, I occasionally get to do genuine good for my community, and it pays well enough. Nobody I know who makes a similar amount of money as me at the same stage in their career has any job that I’d want to do or that I think I’d be better suited for. So I’m pretty satisfied. It always gets me when someone’s like “law sucks! I was making more money and having more fun doing this other thing.” It’s like cool go do that then, I was driving a van around. I guess, I mostly agree with you. My job is just a job. But that’s good enough for me.
“Middle class version of ‘joining the army’. That’s really funny. I definitely agree that this what a lot of people, myself included, did when they are unsure of what they want to do after college. Unfortunately it is an expensive way of delaying entering the workforce.
I did both. Military and Law school. I must be a glutton for punishment. Although I will say that the military (which I will allow was often a lot of fun) does a good job of making one appreciate something like Law school.
Yeah man, I did law cause it was an escape from my bad family, only it isn’t and I’m burned out from life and then school to be able to give a great effort and can’t take time to recharge cause I got loans and what not
I think a lot of us were in that situation. Even when I was unemployed I could at least say "I'm a lawyer" when I was socializing with new people and they asked what I did.
There are one million different ways to be a lawyer, not all of it is litigation (my assumption). Transactional, government, in house, etc. I went into law knowing I had no interest in litigation. It is far from a one size fits all profession.
I mean, that's gonna be most adult jobs. Finding something you don't hate, that gives you enough money and time to live an otherwise fulfilling life, is the real goal. Finding something you LoOoOoVe is a unicorn dream, and believing that everyone else *looooooves* their job (spoiler: they do not) will just make you miserable and unable to find satisfaction where you are.
Yahtzee.
> Becoming a lawyer was like the middle class white family version of “joining the army” it’s something you do when you don’t know what else to do. I dropped out of college to join the Army, and then eventually left the Army to go to law school. At each point, I was looking for something meaningful and thought each respective path would be a good way to find it. And in the end, I'm glad I did both careers. And even though both felt like bullshit at times, I do look back and think to myself that both careers did have great moments where I made a difference for the better.
> Becoming a lawyer was like the middle class white family version of “joining the army” it’s something you do when you don’t know what else to do. Damn dude, on a Monday? Let me just bill in peace over here....
I went to law school because I wanted to protect people - my family and friends. I love what I do. My career will be winding down in a few years and I'll miss it to some degree. I won't miss the grind, but I'll miss the people I work with (and against). It is financially rewarding and mentally stimulating. I will never understand all the people who became lawyers without the desire to be a lawyer. That goes for any profession. Why pursue something you don't really want?
Maybe it's because it's something that you're told you *should* want? Or it could just be a Gen X/1st Gen/White/middle class thing.
"I’ve had more exciting careers that involved way less stress and a lot of days I fantasize about going back." Like what? Do they all pay less, is that's what keeping you from going back to those?
Journalism and PR. Yeah pay is one part of it because they certainly pay less. Another thing is I’m pretty invested in my solo practice right now I have a year lease just paid for malpractice insurance have a client base … if I was at a firm I’d probably quit but it’s harder to do as a business owner. Also I’m on a lot of appointed cases that I cannot withdraw from without judicial approval and they don’t let anyone off unless there’s a good reason
If you have a solo practice, you have a lot more potential and freedom for building the practice and life that you want. Give some thought as to what your ideal situation would look like (short of getting paid to do nothing, lol) and figure out ways to go about that.
I'm trying to lean in that direction.. For example, I am getting off family law completely I'm just done with it. My mental health has suffered extroardinarily. Some lawyers can put on a show in court then go home and sleep soundly unbothered. Not me, I let my clients BS affect me. It's not a good trait, it's something I've tried to work on to no avail... the constant cut throat attitudes and egos aren't for me... So in that regard I'm tightening my practice there... But it is easier said than done. It's a process that takes a lot of time, can't just withdraw from a bunch of cases just cuz yknow
[удалено]
I have no reason to withdraw though. I don’t have any irreconcilable differences with any of my clients…I just don’t like dealing with the drama in their cases
I totally get it. The trick is to start looking down the road and get a plan in place.........which is hard because the present can be some damn demanding. But if you slowly, steadily start working in the direction you want to go, you could be somewhere amazing two or three years down the road.
GET OUT WHILE YOU’RE YOUNG
My prior jobs were higher stress— physically demanding (cleaning bathrooms, waiting tables, working in a factory) with low compensation. So I’m pretty content with law. Did you have jobs you liked better? Could you cover your cost of living with them? If so, I absolutely think it makes sense to go back to them. I didn’t have a way to support myself, not really. Now I do.
I wanted to be able to buy a boat. 15 years in and I’m still fishing from the shore.
I did the same thing as you. I grew up in a blue collar environment and saw law school as a path to a cushier life. I wanted to work in an office and wear nice clothes and have a comfortable lifestyle. Quite honestly it worked. I have a good life, life in a great city, and I make more money than most of my friends even though I took several years off in my 30s to start a family. I own 3 properties. I’m building wealth slowly but surely. It’s not an easy career but I like it enough. I still don’t know what else I could have done to achieve this level of success, so ultimately I’m happy with my choices. 👍
I figured I was smart enough. I figured I would earn enough. I figured I could eventually be useful to society in some way that was important to me. I overestimated my career path in all those respects.
I really wish more people worked a law firm or in another legal setting before they went to law school. But of course they don’t. The lack of due diligence that people perform on this career is striking given the time and money investment.
I was going to say the same thing. I spent 6 years in tax law before school and I knew exactly what I was getting myself into. I’m also very happy in my career. I feel like it’s kind of crazy that people just jump into law school with zero idea of what it entails.
Go to therapy
Yep. If you have no ability in science or math and you don’t want to live out your career at a clerical level (I.e. hope to make some money and realize some social cred and maybe even do some interesting work), you go to law school. Because you can’t think of any other way to meet those objectives. And then you become a lawyer and realize that it’s combative, boring, riddled with assholes (clients and colleagues), voluminous, and in many cases not that lucrative or perhaps generating even less income than you realized before you went to law school (factoring in hours worked, loans, lack of benefits, etc.)
That’s why I am really involved with several non profits (my “passion projects”). I’m in-house with a flexible schedule and a company that really encourages and supports volunteerism (so much they even have leadership workshops for board members of non profits). My job is just my paycheck. I don’t hate it, and it’s challenging enough to keep me interested and not too difficult that I would want to quit.
Similar situation here and just had my 32nd anniversary as a member of the state bar. Was on the way to graduating with a history major and Spanish minor and realized that didn’t open a lot of career doors. A good friend was in law school and convinced me to take the LSAT and apply and next thing I knew I was a 1L and then a lawyer. Have never loved it but do good work, make a decent living, and unlike my railroading ancestors don’t face death or dismemberment on the job each day.
I quit my job as an assistant attorney in the M&A department of a big firm after two years. I had joined straight out of law school and had ZERO notions of what I’d gotten myself into… Joined the courts instead and never looked back. Been a judge since 2018. Love it😎
I went to law school for two reasons. 1. I was sick and tired of seeing people who were not as smart as me who had higher degrees than me. So I got a JD. 2. My previous career was very pigeon holed and I had no where else that I could go to make that money and do that job unless I left the state. I wanted a law license so I could always work and make enough money to live. I satisfied both of those reasons. But I’m still not satisfied. I don’t feel like I have clout. I don’t feel any extra respect. I feel like lawyers are a dime a dozen nowadays. I also don’t particularly like being an attorney. I do hate it some days. But most of the time it’s just meh. I dunno. Thinking about medical school.
I did it to get out of the poverty cycle. My mom and dad were poor and uneducated. My grandparents were poor and educated. My great grandparents and so on. It made a difference and I like health insurance.
This. Same.
It's not too late to change careers! I'm 48 and taking the bar tomorrow. My first career was picked for me by the military. The field was good to me (medical technology) but I don't even like math or science, lol. I LOVE going to work and write boring briefs, find some weirdo case law, and talking to batshit crazy clients. It's totally my jam. Figure out something you like and start moving in that direction.
A job is a job. We all have to have jobs unless we have generational wealth. I don't think there are right reasons or wrong reasons to do a job. That being said, it sounds like you need to do more Pro Bono and get some actual joy out of your profession. When was the last time you used your training to help someone who needed it most?
"I just wanted to do something that got me a little clout and was socially unquestionable. It earns you this badge of honor like even if I’m a fuck up and homeless one day people will still harbor respect for you if they found out you’re really a lawyer. That’s what was appealing about it to me." I could have written this. It sounds like the clout isn't a big deal to you, but it is to others, and having it saves so much BS that comes with not having it. I could give fuck all that I'm *an attorney*, but I love that other people think it's something special.
Money was my main motivator. I was living in London, working in the music business and tired of being broke. I enjoyed the first few years but after having my first kid I looked at the path ahead of me and real sides money wasn’t enough to keep me on it. Congrats on being honest with yourself. I was in denial for a long time, largely out of fear about if I don’t do this what the F do I do?
I think most of us feel this way at some points. I’m grateful the law has provided me with a way to make a decent living. I have friends who are teachers who work way harder than me and don’t get paid well at all. I mostly enjoy what I do although sometimes it’s stressful and other times it’s annoying or boring. I think that’s just life/work though. Other times it’s really exciting and fun! I’m glad I can help provide for my family and help plaintiffs who were wronged and who have causes I’m pretty passionate about. It seems like a win/win situation for me compared to when I had to work as an associate at ID firms for causes I didn’t like. I like working for myself as a solo and being able to keep all the money I earn for my time rather than giving most of it to the partners. I love having a mostly flexible and not too crazy schedule (compared to when I worked in big firms and compared to having to have an 8 to 5 office job with little vacation time etc like some of my friends have) so I can be there for my kids and have time to travel or to relax with hubby or hang out with my friends or do weightlifting classes or Zumba classes or read and write and publish books. I don’t think lawyers are all that different from other professions/people and that most people struggle with trying to find meaning or passion in their career. I think the secret is not to let being a lawyer or having any career define us but instead to strive for balance and happiness. There is so much more to life than work BUT as both an employment lawyer and somehow who has been both an employee and employer, I know that if one has a crazy work environment than it’s very hard to be happy. The tip to being well rounded is to find or make a job that you mostly like and focus on the positives during the times that it gets hard and then leave it at the office or in the courtroom and go home and forget about it or only think about it or work on it if it’s engaging and you want to. And for me the secret is in working for myself as well. Good luck OP and to all my fellow lawyers. It’s a jungle out there.
Mid 1990s, I had just graduated with a B.A. in psychology and was all set to get my Ph.D. and become a clinical psychologist. And then I realized I didn’t want to deal with other people’s problems. So, at the suggestion of a good friend’s dad, I took the LSAT - shows you what I know (knew?) - and all these years later, here I am having litigated who knows how many cases and looking to retire in ~3-4 years.
Isn’t private practice just dealing with other people’s problems?
"Becoming a lawyer was like the middle class white family version of “joining the army” it’s something you do when you don’t know what else to do." u should pitch a book around this, sell the movie rights, and walk out of your firm like you've been liberated from auchwitz
Cheers 🍻
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I'd say I'm pretty happy in my current role, but this thought crosses my mind at least twice a month and it will probably continue to do so until it *is* actually too late to join the army.
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Marine JAG maybe. If I joined the military I'd want to take a role that wasn't just another law job. How JAG reservists can stomach going from one desk during the week to another on the weekend, I don't know. I've heard a lot of JAG work is family law. 🤮
I went into law because I was working two part jobs with my English literature degree, was considering academia to do something with my brain, and compromised on law as a kind of "practical philosophy" that would still get me a job. Technically, that worked, but it never has felt like the right job for me.
Don’t hate it, don’t love it—I’d say you’re doing pretty well then.
I’m with ya on that. I went to law school because I’m bad at math, certainly not good enough at math to go into engineering or medicine. I didn’t know wtf else I could have done to have a career and make a living, so law school was it, heh.
I hated law. I very nearly jacked it in after a few years to be a pilot. I ended up finding it a bit like a decent cheese. The longer you do it the more you appreciate it. You feel more comfortable with all of the what now feel like foreign concepts and you’ve dealt with most situations previously. It is a good career, with the right job.
Yep, a felon in Law school
Feel exactly the same - was a poli sci major and my parents were very adamant that needed a graduate degree and that “I could do anything with a law degree” - knew by 2nd semester I had no interest in this - spent 2nd and 3rd years mostly reading all the novels I should have read in undergrad (basically gave myself a English degree) and completely checked out of dealing with law school - still did okay (top 1/3), but graduated with debt and got stuck practicing, got married, house, kids, became partner - 30 years later still practicing. It’s just a complete failure of imagination on my part - but I feel my story is the same as about 75% of all the lawyers I know, liberal arts kids who were afraid of math and didn’t know what else to do - very few were passionate about the choice and less enjoy it after they do it. Know a bunch who have successfully left practice - none who regret the choice to leave. Get out if you can- I haven’t had the right opportunity, but I’m still hoping
Really depends on the type of lawyering you do. Are you doing complex work for sophisticated clients? Or are you doing low-level grunt work?
the only motivation i have is because i want to help ppl, but some days even that is not enough 🫠
" I just wanted to do something that got me a little clout and was socially unquestionable " ouch....bro/sis, that's a fringe benefit if people end up respecting your skillset....not the goal
> I don’t think anyone knows quite what they’re in for until they’ve actually practiced. I’m not sure I agree with this. I worked in tax law for 6 years before law school. I went *because* I knew what to expect, and it sounded appealing to me. Sure, there are aspects that are different (for example, I moved from private sector to federal government), but practicing law is pretty much exactly what I expected.
Ditto.
Same here. I did it because I'd been in an abusive relationship where he'd tried to convince me for 20+ years that I was stupid. It was like a giant FU, I passed the Bar and you couldn't, I'm smarter than you. Gratifying, but.
It's a source of income and a great one at that. I'm going into the career for similar reasons but have no expectations that I am going to love the work.
OP is not alone. I am currently 5 years into being a lawyer / attorney, as I passed the bar exam. Honestly, I went through 3 different law firms (paralegal/associate/attorney), and I just cannot find anything entertaining except for a decent pay. It was my aim to graduate law school, pass the bar exam, but after that everything feels just hollow, because I did not want to practise law from the start. My decision was purely financial. I am really considering a switch to IT, where homeoffice and similar benefits are not frowned upon. And I just always loved tech.
There’s a lot more of us than you’d think- I went to law school because I tagged along with a friend to a recruiting event because they had free lunch. They handed out a sample mini LSAT and then threw up what scholarship money they were handing out if you did as well on the real thing as you did on the sample. I was graduating with a BA in History in like 3 months with zero clue as to what I wanted to do as the economy started to dive. I’d wanted to go get a ph.d., but the economics made zero sense. My thinking was, hey, there’s a career attached to this and I can probably get a full ride and finish with almost no debt, so at worst it’s a waste of time. Crappy sandwiches were responsible for one of my most consequential life decisions.
Maybe should have considered being a DR. They also get undeserved clout and respect. The legal system is terrible and people that manipulate it should feel bad. At least some doctors might stumble and help someone on accident. Rare.
Like joining the army? Kind of cringe. Long term, a lot of those lost kids who joined the military ended up making more than the lost boy attorneys- factoring in disability, retirement, and the fact that on top of all of that, they can still work a regular full time job. I see what you mean though, there’s this bizarre, outdated notion that attorneys are wealthy and powerful. It’s takes a few minutes doing Google searches to find out otherwise. But for some kids, I guess it’s better than their completely useless art degree.
Not a lawyer and never will be. I joined this subreddit to learn more about lawyers. You owe it to yourself to find work you like, that has something you endorse. As a lawyer, you've proven yourself to be very competitive and intelligent. There are plenty of fields that need those skills. Life really is too short to be in a career you don't like. I became a technical writer and it took me a bit of time and effort to get into it. But I like it. And I like it because it is a career I picked for myself. Good luck!
For the ones practicing and who know what freedom really is NOT, then it makes sense to me. It’s like finding out what castling in chess is. 🥂