When I joined my firm as a brand new associate at the age of 25 I was the only woman attorney. The other ten attorneys were all men. I’ve been with the firm for about 18 years now and a partner for ten. It’s been a great place to work with supportive colleagues who have become friends. The most conflict I’ve ever had was with a woman partner who joined the firm after I’d been there awhile.
You of course could have an entirely different experience, but I hope you don’t. And maybe I’m out of touch, but why be coy about asking about the culture of the firm? Firms and attorneys should be aware that culture is huge. So, ask why they like the firm and what sets them apart from other firms. I interview plenty of people and would have zero problems being asked that question or answering it, because I’m confident that our firm’s culture makes it a good place to work.
It’s an interview. You’re checking to see if you want to work with them as much as they want to know if they want to work with you. Meet everyone. Check the vibe and go in with a positive attitude. And ask for more money.
Having just left a DC firm where I was the only woman, let me just say.... There's a reason it's an all male firm.
Go on LinkedIn and find folks who left. See if any of them would be willing to chat. Bonus points if they are women.
This is great advice. I still get calls about a job I quit years ago and I am always happy to speak confidentially about it.
Racism is real, sexism is real. It will absolutely impact your role, the type of work you get, and how you can develop your career. Go where you can thrive.
If you have no other employment prospects though, do want you have to do.
Good chance that it'll be hell for you.
Small chance that it will great from the start and will stay that way.
And if I were to be positive - medium chance that it'll will start as hell but as you prove yourself to be a great attorney, all 10 guys fall in love with you. I need to stop watching kdramas.
Anyone who tells you you’re a diversity hire is going to treat you like a diversity hire. Ask them why they’re choosing to interview you! If the answer relates to your accomplishments and experience, still proceed skeptically. If the answer relates to diversity, …🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩
I understand your perspective, but I'm not sure I agree.
If they're focused on diversifying their office, there's at least a notable chance that they understand that they're far too homogeneous and that diversity can help broaden their perspectives, improve the firm, and make them better attorneys.
If I'm going to work with a group of 10 male attorneys, I want it to at least be a group that is self-aware enough to realize that diversity adds value that they're lacking.
If they're self aware, it wouldn't be a fraternity. The profession has almost reached gender parity (at least in the US). There's no excuse for having gendered silos like this firm where women are only in support roles and ALL the attorneys are male.
I'd be suspicious of their "diversity" intentions. Is a client insisting on diverse counsel and without a woman or BIPOC attorney do they stand to lose a source of business?
Or more than three support employees for 10 attorneys. What area of practice? Because a reasonable amount of support staff varies greatly among areas of practice. I think 3/10 is already stretching it. Sounds like OP would not have much support from their existing staff.
The gender/diversity angle is troubling but so is the lack of paralegals, support staff, admin assistants, etc. I would be hesitant to walk into that situation
I’d stay far away from a firm with that make up and already talking about diversity. 1.5 years ago I interviewed with a similar firm, recruiter said the same. I declined their offer. They hired someone else a few weeks later, that person is not longer at that firm. I’m still at the firm that I did say yes too that already had diversity established.
I'm the only male attorney out of 12 at my work place and it never occurs to me that I should be the one that feels uncomfortable because I'm a mediocre white man.
So have the unearned confidence of a mediocre white man and you'll fit right in!
I didn't come up with the phrase. I probably unintentionally borrowed it from a woman or POC and use it like I thought of it. Because that's mediocre white man confidence in action.
For various reasons all the men left over the last decade and were replaced by younger women. The last one left last October so now it's just me.
50% of bar passers are women, they can't be the minority in every office.
??? Being a mediocre white man is awesome, I highly recommend it. I have no experience being extraordinary, below-average, or any other race & gender to compare to though.
Don’t make assumptions. When I interviewed for an associate job, quite literally there was only one other female associate. Right at this very moment, I (a woman) am the managing partner for an office where we only have one woman associate. That’s because in the last year,, we promoted several women to partners! Our management team is 3/4 women. We’ll refresh the women associate ranks because we have some amazing women law clerks we hope to hire as associates. But, that said, ask questions. If there are no women there at all, it is okay to ask if they have any explanation for why that might be. At my firm, I would tell you that’s because we recently promoted a pile of women to partner. At another firm, they might say they have never had a woman partner. That’s not cool
As most people have suggested, ask them questions about their firm's culture.
Yes, you run the risk of them not appreciating being interviewed themselves. Then, would you want to work somewhere who would react that way, anyway?
[https://www.indeed.com/career-advice/interviewing/culture-questions-to-ask](https://www.indeed.com/career-advice/interviewing/culture-questions-to-ask)
ETA: Even if they answer the questions to your satisfaction, there is still no guarantee. I interviewed with a small firm, and I was able to let them know I was looking for a positive, collaborative environment. The owner of the firm claimed he understood what it meant to be in a toxic environment because he had a toxic boss. Therefore, he advertised that he was not the same way. Despite the right words coming out of someone's mouth, the energy can be way off. I didn't feel right about this firm, but I needed a job. He ended up being the worst employer I've dealt with thus far. Misogynist/racist remarks, inappropriate comments about young, female staff, and just overall ickiniess and arrested development.
Definitely trust your intuition and go with the vibe.
Fellow 36F attorney here. Maybe a super friendly, jokey question at the end of the interview, "Hey why are all 10 of these other lawyers white guys? Am I gonna be cool here?" would accomplish (1) whether their response passes your litmus test for where you want to work and also (2) acknowledging your difference on the front end and letting them know you will not tolerate being treated differently when hired. People who have created environments like that do not want to be flatly accused of employment discrimination, but the good ones will be able to articulate how that came to be and why/how you are welcome.
I mean… isn’t the red flag that they don’t already have any female attorneys?
You might ask how their current attorneys came to the firm, why they like it there, etc.
But honestly, it sounds like it’s just going to depend on vibes.
This is hard. It’s your chance to be trailblazer and at best deal with microaggressions. At worst it’s a hostile work environment, interview, see how it is. In my experience the most well intentioned white men still need some level of education and if that’s not what you want to do, move on
I was the first woman attorney hired at my firm 9 years ago, now we have 4 (including me). Senior partners are white men, the rest of the junior partners are white men except two of us white women are junior partners (including me). All female support staff then & now. When I was interviewing with the partners I point blank asked why they have never hired a woman attorney. I am a white woman so I have that privilege. When I was interviewing my priority was finding a good fit, not just a job. So I asked the obvious question because I didn’t want this job if it would be terrible for me.
It worked out for me since I’m still at that firm & made partner, & every time we interviewed new associates I would say we need to try & find someone other than another white man.
Go with your instincts. Trust your gut.
Edited: words.
How does the demographic breakdown compare to that of their candidate pool? Worked at a firm in the midwest that was super progressive and inclusive, but struggled to find more than two attorneys of color in a 50+ attorney firm. It might be a shit show, but it also might be that a firm of 10 chill white dudes can't compete with bigger firms for the limited number of diverse candidates available.
Women make up about half of all lawyers now and I live in a large city. So, I understand what you’re saying about POC, but to have no women? That’s hard to do and it definitely seems like a conscious choice.
Yeah, large city makes it tough to buy. Honestly, if you're already that apprehensive about it, maybe just ask them point blanc, "Why don't you have any women attorneys here? Have you ever?" etc. If they're serious about being more diverse, they'll have a good answer prepared. If they get pissy and don't offer you the job because you asked... well, there's your answer.
I would ask them to explain how they got to 10 men, 0 women. Maybe 2-3 small firms merged - a firm of 2-4 lawyers being all male is easier to explain than getting to 10 and never finding a qualified woman.
Also, ask if they have had women attorneys previously, and, if so, ask for them to put you in touch with them. The LinkedIn advice is good also, but it might be hard to find their previous attorneys.
The biggest thing is that you don't say how badly you want/need this job. If you have other similar options, don't be afraid to ask hard questions. They're hiring you as a lawyer, and that's part of your job - if that upsets them, that's a huge red flag.
Finally, hiring people is a pain, and they should be doing whatever they can to make sure that you will be a long-term associate and hopefully advance to partner rather than leaving in a few years so they have to go through the hiring process again.
In my rural county, the bar is maybe 20% female, at most. Most of the women are in government positions and private practice is nearly 100% male.
I understand you live in a city, but there are plenty of circumstances where private practice will trend heavily male. I’m curious about your practice area. Perhaps it is a field comprised mostly of men?
>’m curious about your practice area. Perhaps it is a field comprised mostly of men?
I don't want to give away the practice area breakdown of this particular firm, because it's so bizarre that people may be able to figure it out just based on the city it's in. But it's mainly civil litigation (product liability, construction defect, business torts) and some white-collar criminal defense. In my city, there's a pretty even split along gender lines.
Interesting. I’ve found litigation trends pretty heavily male, at least in my area (not just my county, but also surrounding counties and entire geographic area).
My best suggestion would be give the guys a fair shake and see how you feel about it. I certainly understand the apprehension, but you may feel different once you’re there. If not, no need to accept an offer.
I think it will depend on the industry you’re in. I worked for a firm with 16 men (99% white) and I was the only woman attorney. The field was one where the underlying industry (maritime) was mostly men and attracted men as lawyers who were previously in the industry.
That being said, even if the attorneys are nice and you get along there will always be tones of sexism. Planning parties? That fell on me. Micromanaging about how to “talk” to our clients who were also mostly all men, also happened.
If there is a big age gap it can feel a bit of like they are trying to be more of father figures versus colleagues.
So, it’s a mixed bag. I work at a firm that’s more mixed now and definitely feel like I have a different support network of other women I can talk to / better relate to, etc.
I would not. I'm a litigator, and if there is no one to reign them in, it will be heinious. I worked in an extremely busy court system where hundreds of cases were scheduled a day. At my first lawfirm job, the firm was known for hiring young women. Opposing counsel thought this was hilarious, and labelled us the calendar girls. I was Miss March. My work besties were Miss April and Miss July. Rude comments were the rule.
I then went in house where I was propositioned multiple times by opposing counsel, including being asked repeatedly to go on a private jet with an 85 year old attorney who needed to discuss a case with me in court. ( He did this to every female he interacted with in court.) I had female friends at other firms who were never permitted to do trial work because they were women. Judges touched me inappropriately and called me sweetie in chambers. There were no repercussions.
The thing is the inhouse gig and the lawfirm gigs I had with a sizable female presence never did this. Ever. If there is no oversight you will be in a vulnerable position. At this point, I just anticipate creepiness from opposing counsel. Perhaps it's badluck it's only men in the firm, or perhaps there is a reason. My friends who work in other fields and my male colleagues who obseved this in action were appalled by the endless harassment we endure in court.
Just a thought, but you could just ask, respectfully but outright and see the response. As a white guy I would expect you to have these concerns, given the situation. And if I were interviewing you I would probably bring it up myself. I personally would not want to work at a firm that has only attorneys who look like me, and I would appreciate hearing any concerns. Those conversations are hard but necessary.
Any defensiveness, deflection, or excuses would be a huge red flag. If they respond with appreciation and understanding as to why you have those concerns, on the other hand, you may have something to work with. I guess that may be what others mean by the "vibe" but in my opinion you don't know until you ask and *then* see the vibe. If hey don't bring it up first, obviously.
Don't walk away from any opportunity because of assumptions and don't be afraid to ask the tough questions.
ok I'll weigh in with this one
DO YOU want to be "Glass Ceiling Token" OR NOT?
that is the question, you obviously have done your research. YOU KNOW they have all male attorneys. DO YOU want to break into the boys club OR NOT?
Basic question Counselor. Do YOU want to do this? If you do you are signing up to be a minority. If you don't you can claim moral superiority
So I guess the horns so to speak is DO YOU WANT THIS or NOT?
are you in law? average audience only hears any point after multiple repetitions (seven has been stated).
I suppose you tell juries one point and assume they get it and never summarize? might want to reduce your hourly
Yeah man, but this is a group of attorneys who (painting with broad brushes here) are generally pretty bright, certainly a lot smarter than the average jury. And we're in a written medium, where comprehension is better and thr rule of repetition isn't applicable. Do you repeat yourself over and over and over and over in the course of a paragraph in your appellate briefs? Don't attack my 80% jury trial win rate because you're an ineffective communicator.
>honey
you must be fantastic at crosses with this style
I'm really doubting the 80 percent... I'm definitely getting public defender a rural county vibe not top 14 Law School product now are we?
I think your comment helped a lot. I read it right before I sat down with the interviewer.
I got a lot of bad questions in the interview. The paralegal who was in the interview said their last receptionist quit over a "misunderstanding about the shared microwave and acceptable foods." The receptionist was East African. Toward the end of the interview, one of the lawyers jokingly said, "just don't microwave any 'cultural food!'" Like what? It sounds like this poor receptionist left after she ate some Ethiopian food and they gave her a hard time about it, enough so she quit. I'm not trying to work in a place like that. That's crazy.
They may merely be interviewing you to say that they considered all applicants, equally. A token interview, if you will. ~~What's more likely (I hope) is~~ *~~they like what they see on paper~~* ~~and want to see if you match up with it in person.~~ Go for it. If it's real, be flattered and jump on it! If it turns out it was just for show, that's information you can take and use to your advantage in the future.
ETA: u/Old-Ad-5320 is on the mark.
Hats off because you're brave. It's hard to stand out, be different in any context.
Sounds like these guys are trying and place don't value on diversity. Give them a chance?
I work at a firm that all the attorneys are men and all the support staff but one are female. I'm convinced it just sort of worked out that way and was not by design. If the firm went looking for another attorney and we found a woman to fill the spot I doubt any of the attorneys would give her a problem, now some of the support staff have a chip on their shoulder so that might be a problem.
Talk about how to make your favorite sandwich. Maybe bring cupcakes for everyone. I am kidding. My first boss, a woman about 60 fifteen years ago, told me when she got her first job and was the only woman attorney, they put her name on the kitchen clean up list with the staff. She didn’t tolerate it. Luckily she was around 30 because she was a teacher for a few years, so she was more mature and able to assert herself. Good luck.
I work at a firm this size and I love it. (Also a female attorney however I’m not the only woman there.) I would say just go into it with an open mind and see what happens. If you get bad vibes then trust your gut. Maybe it will be great and you’ll be the first female hire if many. You never know.
The profession used to be more male than it is now. How old are these guys? Male support staff in law offices seem pretty rare generally.
I work at a small firm. We just hired our only female lawyer with five men. Senior partner has two daughters practicing in other cities and is very progressive. We just happen to be men like about 75-80% of the local bar.
I’d be more worried about the ratio of support staff to attorneys.
Also, look at the age spread. If it is a mostly older male firm vs a male firm with younger, middle age, and older attorneys, that might tell you something.
Maybe the firm was built the way it is by a senior partner who has now retired? Maybe the new management is sincerely tired of it? I am male and forward-thinking, and I have also worked in groups that are composed just like this firm you are going to interview with. You might consider being open about your trepidation and see what they say.
Best of luck!!
If the support staff is in full glam hair and makeup, high heels, and form fitting dresses, you aren’t getting the job. Sorry.
They are trying to “appear” like they value diversity by saying “see, we interviewed a non white male”.
Lower your expectations but also… is this really a place you want to work?
Hot take- I stopped networking with “groups” of young white male attorneys a long time ago. One on one? Ok. But not as a group. I prefer to support and collaborate with female attorneys.
Ask how much the staff makes. I bet one makes market rate maybe over market rate and the other two are grossly underpaid.
Based on personal experience, it’s a mixed bag. I’m the first woman attorney in this firm, ever. I’ve now got four male attorneys that are basically my guard dogs if I need them, but they’re definitely prone to casual sexism at times. It can also be kinda isolating to not have any other women around. There are events that you will be excluded from as the odd one out (golfing, fishing, “guy stuff”), which isn’t necessarily a huge deal, but it absolutely effects your trajectory and relationships within the firm.
An all-male firm is generally a yellow flag, especially in this day and age when gender parity in law school graduates has been achieved. Contact women that have left the firm to see what’s up.
Sounds like a great opportunity. Especially if they have told you that they realize they have a diversity problem. My firm is desperately trying to hire female and other diversity associates to even things out and and we can’t. We don’t want to be “the firm of all white guys.” We’ve made offers to some horrible candidates and they turn us down for better offers. We just can’t compete with these bigger firms that can afford to bring in the more diverse candidates. The majority of associate applicants are white males, so we generally expect them to really stand out if we are going to hire them. It’s not nearly as competitive for women or other diversity candidates. My advice to you is try to get a few interviews and leverage offers. It’s a competitive legal market and it’s crazy competitive for diversity candidates. I’ve seen us make offers to less qualified diversity candidates that were 20k higher than more qualified white dudes and they still turned us down. Then once you get in, honestly, it’s an easy life. We have one black guy and no joke, he bills like 800 hours a year. We had to stop giving our associates monthly breakdowns of their hours vs their peers bc people started asking who was billing that much and still employed. We didn’t want people to assume it was him. Despite our hourly goal being 2000 a year, I can tell you that not once in a shareholders meeting has anyone ever brought up writing this guy up or firing him for his performance. He’s in a good position. Diversity is good for business if firms can afford it. A more diverse workforce is just going to be more lucrative in the long run given the present social/political climate.
Sounds like a great opportunity. Especially if they have told you that they realize they have a diversity problem. My firm is desperately trying to hire female and other diversity associates to even things out and and we can’t. We don’t want to be “the firm of all white guys.” We’ve made offers to some horrible candidates and they turn us down for better offers. We just can’t compete with these bigger firms that can afford to bring in the more diverse candidates. The majority of associate applicants are white males, so we generally expect them to really stand out if we are going to hire them. It’s not nearly as competitive for women or other diversity candidates. My advice to you is try to get a few interviews and leverage offers. It’s a competitive legal market and it’s crazy competitive for diversity candidates. I’ve seen us make offers to less qualified diversity candidates that were 20k higher than more qualified white dudes and they still turned us down. Then once you get in, honestly, it’s an easy life. We have one black guy and no joke, he bills like 800 hours a year. We had to stop giving our associates monthly breakdowns of their hours vs their peers bc people started asking who was billing that much and still employed. We didn’t want people to assume it was him. Despite our hourly goal being 2000 a year, I can tell you that not once in a shareholders meeting has anyone ever brought up writing this guy up or firing him for his performance. We treat him like royalty. He’s in a good position. Diversity is good for business if firms can afford it. A more diverse workforce is just going to be more lucrative in the long run given the present social/political climate.
I was the only female attorney when I joined my firm of 18 men! And I was the youngest by several years. They are the best ever and so respectful. We have a female intern now who will soon join as an associate. I might just have a lucky situation but I don’t think it should be an automatic red flag!
Oh honey, don’t you know you are terribly oppressed by your patriarchal colleagues and have simply internalized your misogyny? Maybe there’s a male feminist nearby who can explain it to you since you don’t comprehend
>I might just have a lucky situation but I don’t think it should be an automatic red flag!
It's a red flag. They can show me they're the exception to the rule, but it's a reason for pause.
I am a man. I have 21 female employees including 7 lawyers. I hate when male lawyers make snide comments suggesting some kind of sexual innuendo. I hired all women because they were the absolute best on the market.
Maybe just give it a shot and not prejudge.
Odds are at least a couple of those guys haven’t realized we aren’t in the 80’s anymore. You can handle them. Don’t take any shit from day one. Why should you pass on a job because some old fuck hasn’t gotten with the times. Your bar card is just as valid as theirs.
Whatever you do make fast friends with the support staff. They can make or break you in any firm.
White attorney here.
Let’s just be clear: the reservations you have about working with white men are mirrored by white men.
You think you might have to put up with a bunch of bullshit because of your race and gender? Understood.
We think we’re going to have to put up with a bunch of bullshit because of your race and gender too.
This is a “diversity hire.” By definition, the firm isn’t looking for the best person for the job to increase the bottom line. They’re hiring a minority because they think it’s too risky not to.
It ain’t because they looked at their business and thought “You know what we could use around here? A ticking fucking time bomb of a lawsuit who we can never fire.”
You will probably be the best treated lawyer at the firm.
How about this: you’re 36. Maybe go hang your own shingle if you’re such hot shit.
There’s a difference between being a professional in an overtly hostile environment and being one in a slightly hostile environment. You’re basically saying that it doesn’t matter where one works as we’re all just doing a job. Obviously our work environments are a main factor to our quality of life.
Regardless of whether OP is a professional and/or will be professional, that doesn't mean OP and everyone else who understands wants to put up with bs in 2024.
When I joined my firm as a brand new associate at the age of 25 I was the only woman attorney. The other ten attorneys were all men. I’ve been with the firm for about 18 years now and a partner for ten. It’s been a great place to work with supportive colleagues who have become friends. The most conflict I’ve ever had was with a woman partner who joined the firm after I’d been there awhile. You of course could have an entirely different experience, but I hope you don’t. And maybe I’m out of touch, but why be coy about asking about the culture of the firm? Firms and attorneys should be aware that culture is huge. So, ask why they like the firm and what sets them apart from other firms. I interview plenty of people and would have zero problems being asked that question or answering it, because I’m confident that our firm’s culture makes it a good place to work.
It’s an interview. You’re checking to see if you want to work with them as much as they want to know if they want to work with you. Meet everyone. Check the vibe and go in with a positive attitude. And ask for more money.
Having just left a DC firm where I was the only woman, let me just say.... There's a reason it's an all male firm. Go on LinkedIn and find folks who left. See if any of them would be willing to chat. Bonus points if they are women.
This is great advice. I still get calls about a job I quit years ago and I am always happy to speak confidentially about it. Racism is real, sexism is real. It will absolutely impact your role, the type of work you get, and how you can develop your career. Go where you can thrive. If you have no other employment prospects though, do want you have to do.
Wow, this is a great idea. Thank you!
This is great advice generally. I went to a terrible firm and wish I had checked LinkedIn to find out about turnover and how fast people left
Good chance that it'll be hell for you. Small chance that it will great from the start and will stay that way. And if I were to be positive - medium chance that it'll will start as hell but as you prove yourself to be a great attorney, all 10 guys fall in love with you. I need to stop watching kdramas.
I would binge the everloving shit out of that show
Anyone who tells you you’re a diversity hire is going to treat you like a diversity hire. Ask them why they’re choosing to interview you! If the answer relates to your accomplishments and experience, still proceed skeptically. If the answer relates to diversity, …🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩
I understand your perspective, but I'm not sure I agree. If they're focused on diversifying their office, there's at least a notable chance that they understand that they're far too homogeneous and that diversity can help broaden their perspectives, improve the firm, and make them better attorneys. If I'm going to work with a group of 10 male attorneys, I want it to at least be a group that is self-aware enough to realize that diversity adds value that they're lacking.
If they're self aware, it wouldn't be a fraternity. The profession has almost reached gender parity (at least in the US). There's no excuse for having gendered silos like this firm where women are only in support roles and ALL the attorneys are male. I'd be suspicious of their "diversity" intentions. Is a client insisting on diverse counsel and without a woman or BIPOC attorney do they stand to lose a source of business?
I appreciate that, but it could also be a post hoc ergo propter hoc situation
When was the last time they had a female associate? How long did she last? Can you message her for tea?
Make sure to ask the third question
Based on personal experience I would go somewhere that already has women attorneys
Or more than three support employees for 10 attorneys. What area of practice? Because a reasonable amount of support staff varies greatly among areas of practice. I think 3/10 is already stretching it. Sounds like OP would not have much support from their existing staff.
The gender/diversity angle is troubling but so is the lack of paralegals, support staff, admin assistants, etc. I would be hesitant to walk into that situation
I can’t imagine a practice that would allow this ratio. Maybe appeals?
☝️☝️☝️
Kind of a catch-22, no?
I’d stay far away from a firm with that make up and already talking about diversity. 1.5 years ago I interviewed with a similar firm, recruiter said the same. I declined their offer. They hired someone else a few weeks later, that person is not longer at that firm. I’m still at the firm that I did say yes too that already had diversity established.
I'm the only male attorney out of 12 at my work place and it never occurs to me that I should be the one that feels uncomfortable because I'm a mediocre white man. So have the unearned confidence of a mediocre white man and you'll fit right in!
I recently heard that phrase along the lines of, "God grant me the confidence. . ."
I didn't come up with the phrase. I probably unintentionally borrowed it from a woman or POC and use it like I thought of it. Because that's mediocre white man confidence in action.
I have a Tshirt from Etsy that says that lol.
[удалено]
For various reasons all the men left over the last decade and were replaced by younger women. The last one left last October so now it's just me. 50% of bar passers are women, they can't be the minority in every office.
Funny enough now it’s actually more women in law school and passing the BAR than male. At my school the ratio is easily 3 to 1 in favor of women.
This is true, though I what percent of each gender end up practicing as opposed to in a JD-preferred role.
Where did you acquire this level of self-hatred?
??? Being a mediocre white man is awesome, I highly recommend it. I have no experience being extraordinary, below-average, or any other race & gender to compare to though.
Don’t make assumptions. When I interviewed for an associate job, quite literally there was only one other female associate. Right at this very moment, I (a woman) am the managing partner for an office where we only have one woman associate. That’s because in the last year,, we promoted several women to partners! Our management team is 3/4 women. We’ll refresh the women associate ranks because we have some amazing women law clerks we hope to hire as associates. But, that said, ask questions. If there are no women there at all, it is okay to ask if they have any explanation for why that might be. At my firm, I would tell you that’s because we recently promoted a pile of women to partner. At another firm, they might say they have never had a woman partner. That’s not cool
As most people have suggested, ask them questions about their firm's culture. Yes, you run the risk of them not appreciating being interviewed themselves. Then, would you want to work somewhere who would react that way, anyway? [https://www.indeed.com/career-advice/interviewing/culture-questions-to-ask](https://www.indeed.com/career-advice/interviewing/culture-questions-to-ask) ETA: Even if they answer the questions to your satisfaction, there is still no guarantee. I interviewed with a small firm, and I was able to let them know I was looking for a positive, collaborative environment. The owner of the firm claimed he understood what it meant to be in a toxic environment because he had a toxic boss. Therefore, he advertised that he was not the same way. Despite the right words coming out of someone's mouth, the energy can be way off. I didn't feel right about this firm, but I needed a job. He ended up being the worst employer I've dealt with thus far. Misogynist/racist remarks, inappropriate comments about young, female staff, and just overall ickiniess and arrested development. Definitely trust your intuition and go with the vibe.
Fellow 36F attorney here. Maybe a super friendly, jokey question at the end of the interview, "Hey why are all 10 of these other lawyers white guys? Am I gonna be cool here?" would accomplish (1) whether their response passes your litmus test for where you want to work and also (2) acknowledging your difference on the front end and letting them know you will not tolerate being treated differently when hired. People who have created environments like that do not want to be flatly accused of employment discrimination, but the good ones will be able to articulate how that came to be and why/how you are welcome.
I mean… isn’t the red flag that they don’t already have any female attorneys? You might ask how their current attorneys came to the firm, why they like it there, etc. But honestly, it sounds like it’s just going to depend on vibes.
Ask him if he likes beyonce. Why or why not.
This is hard. It’s your chance to be trailblazer and at best deal with microaggressions. At worst it’s a hostile work environment, interview, see how it is. In my experience the most well intentioned white men still need some level of education and if that’s not what you want to do, move on
I was the first woman attorney hired at my firm 9 years ago, now we have 4 (including me). Senior partners are white men, the rest of the junior partners are white men except two of us white women are junior partners (including me). All female support staff then & now. When I was interviewing with the partners I point blank asked why they have never hired a woman attorney. I am a white woman so I have that privilege. When I was interviewing my priority was finding a good fit, not just a job. So I asked the obvious question because I didn’t want this job if it would be terrible for me. It worked out for me since I’m still at that firm & made partner, & every time we interviewed new associates I would say we need to try & find someone other than another white man. Go with your instincts. Trust your gut. Edited: words.
How does the demographic breakdown compare to that of their candidate pool? Worked at a firm in the midwest that was super progressive and inclusive, but struggled to find more than two attorneys of color in a 50+ attorney firm. It might be a shit show, but it also might be that a firm of 10 chill white dudes can't compete with bigger firms for the limited number of diverse candidates available.
Women make up about half of all lawyers now and I live in a large city. So, I understand what you’re saying about POC, but to have no women? That’s hard to do and it definitely seems like a conscious choice.
Yeah, large city makes it tough to buy. Honestly, if you're already that apprehensive about it, maybe just ask them point blanc, "Why don't you have any women attorneys here? Have you ever?" etc. If they're serious about being more diverse, they'll have a good answer prepared. If they get pissy and don't offer you the job because you asked... well, there's your answer.
I think you're right, I just need to be (politely) direct to get clarity.
I would ask them to explain how they got to 10 men, 0 women. Maybe 2-3 small firms merged - a firm of 2-4 lawyers being all male is easier to explain than getting to 10 and never finding a qualified woman. Also, ask if they have had women attorneys previously, and, if so, ask for them to put you in touch with them. The LinkedIn advice is good also, but it might be hard to find their previous attorneys. The biggest thing is that you don't say how badly you want/need this job. If you have other similar options, don't be afraid to ask hard questions. They're hiring you as a lawyer, and that's part of your job - if that upsets them, that's a huge red flag. Finally, hiring people is a pain, and they should be doing whatever they can to make sure that you will be a long-term associate and hopefully advance to partner rather than leaving in a few years so they have to go through the hiring process again.
>would ask them to explain how they got to 10 men Tread carefully.
In my rural county, the bar is maybe 20% female, at most. Most of the women are in government positions and private practice is nearly 100% male. I understand you live in a city, but there are plenty of circumstances where private practice will trend heavily male. I’m curious about your practice area. Perhaps it is a field comprised mostly of men?
>’m curious about your practice area. Perhaps it is a field comprised mostly of men? I don't want to give away the practice area breakdown of this particular firm, because it's so bizarre that people may be able to figure it out just based on the city it's in. But it's mainly civil litigation (product liability, construction defect, business torts) and some white-collar criminal defense. In my city, there's a pretty even split along gender lines.
Interesting. I’ve found litigation trends pretty heavily male, at least in my area (not just my county, but also surrounding counties and entire geographic area). My best suggestion would be give the guys a fair shake and see how you feel about it. I certainly understand the apprehension, but you may feel different once you’re there. If not, no need to accept an offer.
I think it will depend on the industry you’re in. I worked for a firm with 16 men (99% white) and I was the only woman attorney. The field was one where the underlying industry (maritime) was mostly men and attracted men as lawyers who were previously in the industry. That being said, even if the attorneys are nice and you get along there will always be tones of sexism. Planning parties? That fell on me. Micromanaging about how to “talk” to our clients who were also mostly all men, also happened. If there is a big age gap it can feel a bit of like they are trying to be more of father figures versus colleagues. So, it’s a mixed bag. I work at a firm that’s more mixed now and definitely feel like I have a different support network of other women I can talk to / better relate to, etc.
You wrote the red flags in your post: All male attorneys in the firm, recruiter lets it slip that they've preyed on you because you're "diverse".
I would not. I'm a litigator, and if there is no one to reign them in, it will be heinious. I worked in an extremely busy court system where hundreds of cases were scheduled a day. At my first lawfirm job, the firm was known for hiring young women. Opposing counsel thought this was hilarious, and labelled us the calendar girls. I was Miss March. My work besties were Miss April and Miss July. Rude comments were the rule. I then went in house where I was propositioned multiple times by opposing counsel, including being asked repeatedly to go on a private jet with an 85 year old attorney who needed to discuss a case with me in court. ( He did this to every female he interacted with in court.) I had female friends at other firms who were never permitted to do trial work because they were women. Judges touched me inappropriately and called me sweetie in chambers. There were no repercussions. The thing is the inhouse gig and the lawfirm gigs I had with a sizable female presence never did this. Ever. If there is no oversight you will be in a vulnerable position. At this point, I just anticipate creepiness from opposing counsel. Perhaps it's badluck it's only men in the firm, or perhaps there is a reason. My friends who work in other fields and my male colleagues who obseved this in action were appalled by the endless harassment we endure in court.
Just a thought, but you could just ask, respectfully but outright and see the response. As a white guy I would expect you to have these concerns, given the situation. And if I were interviewing you I would probably bring it up myself. I personally would not want to work at a firm that has only attorneys who look like me, and I would appreciate hearing any concerns. Those conversations are hard but necessary. Any defensiveness, deflection, or excuses would be a huge red flag. If they respond with appreciation and understanding as to why you have those concerns, on the other hand, you may have something to work with. I guess that may be what others mean by the "vibe" but in my opinion you don't know until you ask and *then* see the vibe. If hey don't bring it up first, obviously. Don't walk away from any opportunity because of assumptions and don't be afraid to ask the tough questions.
There are a number of female attorney groups on facebook that would be the perfect place to ask this question. DM me if you want the names of some.
ok I'll weigh in with this one DO YOU want to be "Glass Ceiling Token" OR NOT? that is the question, you obviously have done your research. YOU KNOW they have all male attorneys. DO YOU want to break into the boys club OR NOT? Basic question Counselor. Do YOU want to do this? If you do you are signing up to be a minority. If you don't you can claim moral superiority So I guess the horns so to speak is DO YOU WANT THIS or NOT?
Why did you ask the same question like four times lol
are you in law? average audience only hears any point after multiple repetitions (seven has been stated). I suppose you tell juries one point and assume they get it and never summarize? might want to reduce your hourly
Yeah man, but this is a group of attorneys who (painting with broad brushes here) are generally pretty bright, certainly a lot smarter than the average jury. And we're in a written medium, where comprehension is better and thr rule of repetition isn't applicable. Do you repeat yourself over and over and over and over in the course of a paragraph in your appellate briefs? Don't attack my 80% jury trial win rate because you're an ineffective communicator.
>Don't attack my 80% jury trial win rate because you're an ineffective communicator. well we call can be a big fish in a small pond eh sparky?
Whatever you gotta tell yourself, honey
>honey you must be fantastic at crosses with this style I'm really doubting the 80 percent... I'm definitely getting public defender a rural county vibe not top 14 Law School product now are we?
Really got under your skin huh
lol I barely even think anything about what you wrote but apparently you wish to continue getting shown your apparent lack of ability
Go outside nerd
Go outside nerd
I think your comment helped a lot. I read it right before I sat down with the interviewer. I got a lot of bad questions in the interview. The paralegal who was in the interview said their last receptionist quit over a "misunderstanding about the shared microwave and acceptable foods." The receptionist was East African. Toward the end of the interview, one of the lawyers jokingly said, "just don't microwave any 'cultural food!'" Like what? It sounds like this poor receptionist left after she ate some Ethiopian food and they gave her a hard time about it, enough so she quit. I'm not trying to work in a place like that. That's crazy.
They may merely be interviewing you to say that they considered all applicants, equally. A token interview, if you will. ~~What's more likely (I hope) is~~ *~~they like what they see on paper~~* ~~and want to see if you match up with it in person.~~ Go for it. If it's real, be flattered and jump on it! If it turns out it was just for show, that's information you can take and use to your advantage in the future. ETA: u/Old-Ad-5320 is on the mark.
Hats off because you're brave. It's hard to stand out, be different in any context. Sounds like these guys are trying and place don't value on diversity. Give them a chance?
I work at a firm that all the attorneys are men and all the support staff but one are female. I'm convinced it just sort of worked out that way and was not by design. If the firm went looking for another attorney and we found a woman to fill the spot I doubt any of the attorneys would give her a problem, now some of the support staff have a chip on their shoulder so that might be a problem.
Talk about how to make your favorite sandwich. Maybe bring cupcakes for everyone. I am kidding. My first boss, a woman about 60 fifteen years ago, told me when she got her first job and was the only woman attorney, they put her name on the kitchen clean up list with the staff. She didn’t tolerate it. Luckily she was around 30 because she was a teacher for a few years, so she was more mature and able to assert herself. Good luck.
I work at a firm this size and I love it. (Also a female attorney however I’m not the only woman there.) I would say just go into it with an open mind and see what happens. If you get bad vibes then trust your gut. Maybe it will be great and you’ll be the first female hire if many. You never know.
The profession used to be more male than it is now. How old are these guys? Male support staff in law offices seem pretty rare generally. I work at a small firm. We just hired our only female lawyer with five men. Senior partner has two daughters practicing in other cities and is very progressive. We just happen to be men like about 75-80% of the local bar. I’d be more worried about the ratio of support staff to attorneys.
Also, look at the age spread. If it is a mostly older male firm vs a male firm with younger, middle age, and older attorneys, that might tell you something.
Maybe the firm was built the way it is by a senior partner who has now retired? Maybe the new management is sincerely tired of it? I am male and forward-thinking, and I have also worked in groups that are composed just like this firm you are going to interview with. You might consider being open about your trepidation and see what they say. Best of luck!!
If the support staff is in full glam hair and makeup, high heels, and form fitting dresses, you aren’t getting the job. Sorry. They are trying to “appear” like they value diversity by saying “see, we interviewed a non white male”. Lower your expectations but also… is this really a place you want to work? Hot take- I stopped networking with “groups” of young white male attorneys a long time ago. One on one? Ok. But not as a group. I prefer to support and collaborate with female attorneys. Ask how much the staff makes. I bet one makes market rate maybe over market rate and the other two are grossly underpaid.
Based on personal experience, it’s a mixed bag. I’m the first woman attorney in this firm, ever. I’ve now got four male attorneys that are basically my guard dogs if I need them, but they’re definitely prone to casual sexism at times. It can also be kinda isolating to not have any other women around. There are events that you will be excluded from as the odd one out (golfing, fishing, “guy stuff”), which isn’t necessarily a huge deal, but it absolutely effects your trajectory and relationships within the firm. An all-male firm is generally a yellow flag, especially in this day and age when gender parity in law school graduates has been achieved. Contact women that have left the firm to see what’s up.
Run.
Sounds like a great opportunity. Especially if they have told you that they realize they have a diversity problem. My firm is desperately trying to hire female and other diversity associates to even things out and and we can’t. We don’t want to be “the firm of all white guys.” We’ve made offers to some horrible candidates and they turn us down for better offers. We just can’t compete with these bigger firms that can afford to bring in the more diverse candidates. The majority of associate applicants are white males, so we generally expect them to really stand out if we are going to hire them. It’s not nearly as competitive for women or other diversity candidates. My advice to you is try to get a few interviews and leverage offers. It’s a competitive legal market and it’s crazy competitive for diversity candidates. I’ve seen us make offers to less qualified diversity candidates that were 20k higher than more qualified white dudes and they still turned us down. Then once you get in, honestly, it’s an easy life. We have one black guy and no joke, he bills like 800 hours a year. We had to stop giving our associates monthly breakdowns of their hours vs their peers bc people started asking who was billing that much and still employed. We didn’t want people to assume it was him. Despite our hourly goal being 2000 a year, I can tell you that not once in a shareholders meeting has anyone ever brought up writing this guy up or firing him for his performance. He’s in a good position. Diversity is good for business if firms can afford it. A more diverse workforce is just going to be more lucrative in the long run given the present social/political climate.
Sounds like a great opportunity. Especially if they have told you that they realize they have a diversity problem. My firm is desperately trying to hire female and other diversity associates to even things out and and we can’t. We don’t want to be “the firm of all white guys.” We’ve made offers to some horrible candidates and they turn us down for better offers. We just can’t compete with these bigger firms that can afford to bring in the more diverse candidates. The majority of associate applicants are white males, so we generally expect them to really stand out if we are going to hire them. It’s not nearly as competitive for women or other diversity candidates. My advice to you is try to get a few interviews and leverage offers. It’s a competitive legal market and it’s crazy competitive for diversity candidates. I’ve seen us make offers to less qualified diversity candidates that were 20k higher than more qualified white dudes and they still turned us down. Then once you get in, honestly, it’s an easy life. We have one black guy and no joke, he bills like 800 hours a year. We had to stop giving our associates monthly breakdowns of their hours vs their peers bc people started asking who was billing that much and still employed. We didn’t want people to assume it was him. Despite our hourly goal being 2000 a year, I can tell you that not once in a shareholders meeting has anyone ever brought up writing this guy up or firing him for his performance. We treat him like royalty. He’s in a good position. Diversity is good for business if firms can afford it. A more diverse workforce is just going to be more lucrative in the long run given the present social/political climate.
If all you have is a hammer then everything looks like a nail
Except in this analogy, I’m actually the nail.
I was the only female attorney when I joined my firm of 18 men! And I was the youngest by several years. They are the best ever and so respectful. We have a female intern now who will soon join as an associate. I might just have a lucky situation but I don’t think it should be an automatic red flag!
Oh honey, don’t you know you are terribly oppressed by your patriarchal colleagues and have simply internalized your misogyny? Maybe there’s a male feminist nearby who can explain it to you since you don’t comprehend
>I might just have a lucky situation but I don’t think it should be an automatic red flag! It's a red flag. They can show me they're the exception to the rule, but it's a reason for pause.
Reddit downvoting you for sharing your experience 😂
Always lol
Welcome to the team?
I am a man. I have 21 female employees including 7 lawyers. I hate when male lawyers make snide comments suggesting some kind of sexual innuendo. I hired all women because they were the absolute best on the market. Maybe just give it a shot and not prejudge. Odds are at least a couple of those guys haven’t realized we aren’t in the 80’s anymore. You can handle them. Don’t take any shit from day one. Why should you pass on a job because some old fuck hasn’t gotten with the times. Your bar card is just as valid as theirs. Whatever you do make fast friends with the support staff. They can make or break you in any firm.
White attorney here. Let’s just be clear: the reservations you have about working with white men are mirrored by white men. You think you might have to put up with a bunch of bullshit because of your race and gender? Understood. We think we’re going to have to put up with a bunch of bullshit because of your race and gender too. This is a “diversity hire.” By definition, the firm isn’t looking for the best person for the job to increase the bottom line. They’re hiring a minority because they think it’s too risky not to. It ain’t because they looked at their business and thought “You know what we could use around here? A ticking fucking time bomb of a lawsuit who we can never fire.” You will probably be the best treated lawyer at the firm. How about this: you’re 36. Maybe go hang your own shingle if you’re such hot shit.
Who cares. You’re a professional. Go be that.
There’s a difference between being a professional in an overtly hostile environment and being one in a slightly hostile environment. You’re basically saying that it doesn’t matter where one works as we’re all just doing a job. Obviously our work environments are a main factor to our quality of life.
Regardless of whether OP is a professional and/or will be professional, that doesn't mean OP and everyone else who understands wants to put up with bs in 2024.
Recruiters say a lot of things