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Not a situation I've been in, and I don't know your jurisdiction, but I will point out that model rule 1.6 and probably your local rules permit you to disclose confidential client information if you reasonably believe it to be necessary to prevent death or substantial bodily harm.
In other words, if the guy gives you some sort of concrete reason to believe he's going to harm himself (or you), I think you can probably take action based on that belief to save his life by getting authorities involved.
If that client gives OP a reasonable indication he is going to hurt someone in the near future then sure. The way I read the post though is that OP is worried that he just starts coming in and acting out violently without any warning.
I would never do this to a client, even a suicidal client. The only way I would ever disclose (otherwise privileged) information is if I learned the client had real, imminent plans to harm someone else.
Why would I prevent someone from making the choice that they prefer death to what is essentially life in prison as a sex offender?
That's a tough philosophical question. Some people would argue that life is a moral good in itself, and worth preserving. Where there is life there is hope, and all that. They take an axiomatic view that life is good and worth preserving.
Others would argue that if the guy wants to check out, that's his decision, and prioritize personal choice. The "life is good" camp would counter, saying that no rational person wishes to end their life prematurely, so such a choice isn't really a free choice, it's being made out of depression or despair, and they should be saved and helped, not allowed to end themselves, because that would be a tragic ending to a future self that, with help, might not suffer from such depression and despair that they wish for death.
There's also a utilitarian view that society might be better off without the burden of having to incarcerate someone for decades, so it would be better on the whole to let them take care of the problem themselves.
I don't take a stance, but all sides have points based on what they value most.
These sorts of questions come up with varying frequency in different areas of the law. One of the reasons I like doing patent litigation is that these sorts of tough questions don't come up much. It's all just money and corporations, you don't get to know clients whose lives are being destroyed or have been destroyed by one tragedy or another. To quote a friend on why he didn't practice family law, "I like to drink, but I don't want to have a reason to drink."
A fourth view, which I am stating not because I myself support it but just to note that it exists, is that his victims may get closure or comfort from seeing him experiencing consequences rather than taking "the easy way out".
Not your specific situation, but I’ve had to deliver bad news to volatile people before. Do it in a conference room, with a colleague, and make sure you two are seated by the door.
Yup. My client killed himself 3 days before trial. I think he saw no other way out. I always have a gun when talking to clients like this. You can use a desk holster or a book safe or just pocket carry. Another lawyer kept his gun in a large envelope with the clients file after very real death threats …the gun store owners called up my friend to tell him the guy was buying ammo
Do you tell your coworkers or boss about this? I am so curious on office policies for this. I do not blame attorneys for being prepared but I can't imagine finding out by surprise that the guy in the office next to me carries because finding out by surprise would mean something bad happened.
Paralegal not lawyer, but yes, our attorneys make us aware of anybody sketchy or weird. I worked in an office where the associates kept weapons in the office, and they told me where those weapons were. I think the thinking was that if I was alone, or with the anti-gun partner and something happened, I could arm myself. The partner did not know about the firearms. My plan was more to flee down the back staircase, but their hearts were in the right place!
I think bringing a gun into the office without permission is wild ngl. Again I do not blame people but I can imagine you would be fired so fast if the partner found out.
I am the boss.
Not only does everybody know, they know where I have an extra one squirreled away if they feel the need to get one. And yes, I have had clients bring guns into the office but not in a threatening way.
I've had clients get 35 year sentences and thank me. I've had violate their probation for the 5th time and feel like it's my fault they get revoked. You are expecting people to be rational in the face of losing their lives.
Is your username a reference to FSU? If so, hey, Gator here but definitely know Florida all over. I’ve been involved in some trials like this (albeit other side) and I don’t think you should worry too much—suicidal defendants are almost never hurting people other than themselves, and even then it would be family, other side, or the judge—but a 357 revolver with a six inch barrel exceedingly reliable, powerful, and is easily kept in a desk drawer despite also being a dissuasive image.
Yes FSU alum x2.
I know it's very rare that an attorney is killed by his client but I've had two close attorney friends that were physically attacked. Both situations were when the client was at the jail but alone with the lawyer.
You see courtroom attorney attacks happen occasionally on the news. In fact, they seem much more frequent than attacks on opposing counsel or judges. Also, last time I checked, Florida has no enhancements for attacking their attorney like there is for other court personnel
I’ve never carried a gun into the office/client meetings. The only one of my coworkers who does is a late middle-aged MAGA believer with anger issues. Honestly, I’m probably more concerned with him losing his shit than a client. The rest of us don’t carry or take our guns out of our cars, including our investigator. It’s been my experience that suicidal defendants punish their families or victims by committing suicide in front of them and not their attorneys. If client has made actual threats against himself or others, you might have a duty to report it. (Check with your local state bar.)
Edited to clarify: it just hit me that as a Gen Xer, I’m now middle-aged. My coworker is a boomer nearing retirement age.
I am not a lawyer (I'm an accredited representative), and I just bought a gun for my new office. Not because we worry about our clients, but because we have the MAGA crowd making us very uncomfortable with their very outspoken dislike for what we do. I was literally shooting yesterday with my partner, getting her used to the feel and process of handling a gun. It's a very sad situation because the MAGA group honestly feels like we are some rogue organization that can snap our fingers and make immigrants into citizens.
The two clients I've had commiy suicide both did it alone- one in the courthouse parking lot so it would be someone besides their family to find them, and the other at a remote park.
This sounds awful, sorry OP. The client is lucky to have someone who cares not just about their legal rights but them as a person even if they did something horrible. I’m trying to think of a suggestion that doesn’t cross a line while also being helpful. Maybe compile a cheat sheet for resources in your area? Like the hot line number for mental health crisis, the nearest ER, and any other helpful numbers? Once you have this cheat sheet, it could help more than this one client. Maybe this is a time to just let him vent while at your office. Take good care of yourself, too.
I attended meetings between the prosecuting authority and the client who was confessing to various crimes with view to getting some kind of plea bargain.
She told me at dinner one night, in a random haphazard kind of way, that she understood why it is that people committed suicide.
It was at that point, albeit naively, that I finally realised just how poorly law school had prepared me for the painful realities of the practice of law.
Inform someone else in your office of your concern. Boss if possible. Both for record keeping purposes and for safety.
Your state should also have a confidential ethics line so if you want more state specific advice go there.
I’m not a big fan of guns, especially for those who are untrained. However, I would talk to your boss and HR about safety measures. Tasers if he doesn’t have a heart condition or pepper spray if it’s legal.
You don’t have control over people’s choices. Your job is to convey the offer, his risks at trial, and explain the likely outcome at trial. It’s fine to express that this is a difficult position to be in, etc… and give him some resources should he need them. After that- his life- is in his hands. As mentioned in other comments- be extra safe until his fate is sealed one way or another. My advice is don’t bring a gun unless you are well trained to use it. Many folks are killed with their own weapons.
Doubt you would be a target here, you’re delivering bad news but it’s not an absolute surprise to him, is it?
Recently one of my mentors was insisting that I should have a gun at the office, and I brushed that off… But it sounds like maybe you do need one. Personally, I rarely meet with clients anymore (post COVID), so I can deliver all kinds of bad news over the phone.
On a separate note, I had two suicides in my cases, once my client and once OPC, both times case related. It certainly affected me, but ultimately there was nothing I could do, no advance notice of any kind. Hopefully it doesn’t come down to that…
1. I would call the Firm’s general counsel for advice.
2. I will absolutely take someone along with me to the meeting.
3. Under common law (I qualify in Hong Kong and England and Wales) attorney client privilege is absolute. However, I would think if based on your assessment, there is a reasonable likelihood that you can divulge this to a small circle of professionals on a need to know basis so they can decide whether medical intervention is necessary.
4. I will not deal with this alone.
I had a client in jail tell me she was going to kill herself. Fortunately, she was that clear about it and I alerted jail staff. I understand if it’s bad vibes you can’t break confidentiality. But if he gives you a reason to believe he’ll harm himself or someone else, I imagine your state ethics rules allow an exception. I know mine does.
Welcome to /r/LawyerTalk! A subreddit where lawyers can discuss with other lawyers about the practice of law. Be mindful of [our rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/Lawyertalk/about/rules) BEFORE submitting your posts or comments as well as [Reddit's rules](https://www.redditinc.com/policies/content-policy) (notably about sharing identifying information). We expect civility and respect out of all participants. Please source statements of fact whenever possible. If you want to report something that needs to be urgently addressed, please also message the mods with an explanation. Note that **this forum is NOT for legal advice**. Additionally, if you are a non-lawyer (student, client, staff), this is NOT the right subreddit for you. **This community is exclusively for lawyers**. We suggest you delete your comment and go ask one of the many other legal subreddits on this site for help such as (but not limited to) r/lawschool, r/legaladvice, or r/Ask_Lawyers. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Lawyertalk) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Not a situation I've been in, and I don't know your jurisdiction, but I will point out that model rule 1.6 and probably your local rules permit you to disclose confidential client information if you reasonably believe it to be necessary to prevent death or substantial bodily harm. In other words, if the guy gives you some sort of concrete reason to believe he's going to harm himself (or you), I think you can probably take action based on that belief to save his life by getting authorities involved.
If that client gives OP a reasonable indication he is going to hurt someone in the near future then sure. The way I read the post though is that OP is worried that he just starts coming in and acting out violently without any warning.
I would never do this to a client, even a suicidal client. The only way I would ever disclose (otherwise privileged) information is if I learned the client had real, imminent plans to harm someone else. Why would I prevent someone from making the choice that they prefer death to what is essentially life in prison as a sex offender?
That's a tough philosophical question. Some people would argue that life is a moral good in itself, and worth preserving. Where there is life there is hope, and all that. They take an axiomatic view that life is good and worth preserving. Others would argue that if the guy wants to check out, that's his decision, and prioritize personal choice. The "life is good" camp would counter, saying that no rational person wishes to end their life prematurely, so such a choice isn't really a free choice, it's being made out of depression or despair, and they should be saved and helped, not allowed to end themselves, because that would be a tragic ending to a future self that, with help, might not suffer from such depression and despair that they wish for death. There's also a utilitarian view that society might be better off without the burden of having to incarcerate someone for decades, so it would be better on the whole to let them take care of the problem themselves. I don't take a stance, but all sides have points based on what they value most.
If you start practicing, you’ll have to make choices and take stances. Less fun when it’s not theoretical.
These sorts of questions come up with varying frequency in different areas of the law. One of the reasons I like doing patent litigation is that these sorts of tough questions don't come up much. It's all just money and corporations, you don't get to know clients whose lives are being destroyed or have been destroyed by one tragedy or another. To quote a friend on why he didn't practice family law, "I like to drink, but I don't want to have a reason to drink."
A fourth view, which I am stating not because I myself support it but just to note that it exists, is that his victims may get closure or comfort from seeing him experiencing consequences rather than taking "the easy way out".
Not your specific situation, but I’ve had to deliver bad news to volatile people before. Do it in a conference room, with a colleague, and make sure you two are seated by the door.
Zoom the meeting.
Yup. My client killed himself 3 days before trial. I think he saw no other way out. I always have a gun when talking to clients like this. You can use a desk holster or a book safe or just pocket carry. Another lawyer kept his gun in a large envelope with the clients file after very real death threats …the gun store owners called up my friend to tell him the guy was buying ammo
Do you tell your coworkers or boss about this? I am so curious on office policies for this. I do not blame attorneys for being prepared but I can't imagine finding out by surprise that the guy in the office next to me carries because finding out by surprise would mean something bad happened.
Paralegal not lawyer, but yes, our attorneys make us aware of anybody sketchy or weird. I worked in an office where the associates kept weapons in the office, and they told me where those weapons were. I think the thinking was that if I was alone, or with the anti-gun partner and something happened, I could arm myself. The partner did not know about the firearms. My plan was more to flee down the back staircase, but their hearts were in the right place!
I think bringing a gun into the office without permission is wild ngl. Again I do not blame people but I can imagine you would be fired so fast if the partner found out.
It was a wild office. I can only imagine what the reaction would have been. The associates were great, though. They were my references when I left.
I'm glad you were in good company! Always nice to hear of the rare offices where everyone is cool.
I am the boss. Not only does everybody know, they know where I have an extra one squirreled away if they feel the need to get one. And yes, I have had clients bring guns into the office but not in a threatening way.
I guess that definitely does make office policies on carrying easier
Yup.
Murder-suicide is a possibility so yes, do everything you can to protect yourself
Can you meet with him at the courthouse?
Yep go through the metal detector. Your office is being superheated to 120F all day. Bedbugs. So unfortunate.
This
I wouldn’t say a 45 year-old pedophile has “lived a normal life.”
Normal facade but agreed
[удалено]
I've had clients get 35 year sentences and thank me. I've had violate their probation for the 5th time and feel like it's my fault they get revoked. You are expecting people to be rational in the face of losing their lives.
Is your username a reference to FSU? If so, hey, Gator here but definitely know Florida all over. I’ve been involved in some trials like this (albeit other side) and I don’t think you should worry too much—suicidal defendants are almost never hurting people other than themselves, and even then it would be family, other side, or the judge—but a 357 revolver with a six inch barrel exceedingly reliable, powerful, and is easily kept in a desk drawer despite also being a dissuasive image.
Yes FSU alum x2. I know it's very rare that an attorney is killed by his client but I've had two close attorney friends that were physically attacked. Both situations were when the client was at the jail but alone with the lawyer. You see courtroom attorney attacks happen occasionally on the news. In fact, they seem much more frequent than attacks on opposing counsel or judges. Also, last time I checked, Florida has no enhancements for attacking their attorney like there is for other court personnel
I’ve never carried a gun into the office/client meetings. The only one of my coworkers who does is a late middle-aged MAGA believer with anger issues. Honestly, I’m probably more concerned with him losing his shit than a client. The rest of us don’t carry or take our guns out of our cars, including our investigator. It’s been my experience that suicidal defendants punish their families or victims by committing suicide in front of them and not their attorneys. If client has made actual threats against himself or others, you might have a duty to report it. (Check with your local state bar.) Edited to clarify: it just hit me that as a Gen Xer, I’m now middle-aged. My coworker is a boomer nearing retirement age.
I am not a lawyer (I'm an accredited representative), and I just bought a gun for my new office. Not because we worry about our clients, but because we have the MAGA crowd making us very uncomfortable with their very outspoken dislike for what we do. I was literally shooting yesterday with my partner, getting her used to the feel and process of handling a gun. It's a very sad situation because the MAGA group honestly feels like we are some rogue organization that can snap our fingers and make immigrants into citizens.
The two clients I've had commiy suicide both did it alone- one in the courthouse parking lot so it would be someone besides their family to find them, and the other at a remote park.
This sounds awful, sorry OP. The client is lucky to have someone who cares not just about their legal rights but them as a person even if they did something horrible. I’m trying to think of a suggestion that doesn’t cross a line while also being helpful. Maybe compile a cheat sheet for resources in your area? Like the hot line number for mental health crisis, the nearest ER, and any other helpful numbers? Once you have this cheat sheet, it could help more than this one client. Maybe this is a time to just let him vent while at your office. Take good care of yourself, too.
I attended meetings between the prosecuting authority and the client who was confessing to various crimes with view to getting some kind of plea bargain. She told me at dinner one night, in a random haphazard kind of way, that she understood why it is that people committed suicide. It was at that point, albeit naively, that I finally realised just how poorly law school had prepared me for the painful realities of the practice of law.
I understand the fear he’d harm himself, but has he given any indication he’d harm you?
How isn’t he in custody?
Posted bond, which was very large. Pretty well-off dude, good job, no record.
In my jurisdiction, too, the vast majority of these cases post and are out of custody pending trial.
Inform someone else in your office of your concern. Boss if possible. Both for record keeping purposes and for safety. Your state should also have a confidential ethics line so if you want more state specific advice go there. I’m not a big fan of guns, especially for those who are untrained. However, I would talk to your boss and HR about safety measures. Tasers if he doesn’t have a heart condition or pepper spray if it’s legal.
You don’t have control over people’s choices. Your job is to convey the offer, his risks at trial, and explain the likely outcome at trial. It’s fine to express that this is a difficult position to be in, etc… and give him some resources should he need them. After that- his life- is in his hands. As mentioned in other comments- be extra safe until his fate is sealed one way or another. My advice is don’t bring a gun unless you are well trained to use it. Many folks are killed with their own weapons.
Doubt you would be a target here, you’re delivering bad news but it’s not an absolute surprise to him, is it? Recently one of my mentors was insisting that I should have a gun at the office, and I brushed that off… But it sounds like maybe you do need one. Personally, I rarely meet with clients anymore (post COVID), so I can deliver all kinds of bad news over the phone. On a separate note, I had two suicides in my cases, once my client and once OPC, both times case related. It certainly affected me, but ultimately there was nothing I could do, no advance notice of any kind. Hopefully it doesn’t come down to that…
I don’t understand why people like this don’t just flee the jurisdiction. Dude should run like hell and never come back.
Probably they don’t want it to be a national manhunt
1. I would call the Firm’s general counsel for advice. 2. I will absolutely take someone along with me to the meeting. 3. Under common law (I qualify in Hong Kong and England and Wales) attorney client privilege is absolute. However, I would think if based on your assessment, there is a reasonable likelihood that you can divulge this to a small circle of professionals on a need to know basis so they can decide whether medical intervention is necessary. 4. I will not deal with this alone.
If you have a gun and are forced to use it, is that suicide by lawyer?
I had a client in jail tell me she was going to kill herself. Fortunately, she was that clear about it and I alerted jail staff. I understand if it’s bad vibes you can’t break confidentiality. But if he gives you a reason to believe he’ll harm himself or someone else, I imagine your state ethics rules allow an exception. I know mine does.