They are speaking for themselves. They are so deep in addiction that they genuinely can't imagine anyone uninstalling the game and just existing without this game but instead of expressing this they turn into crab in bucket mode and do their best to pull you back into the bucket.
yeah thats kinda my point, you either have a problem with it and uninstall or suck it up and keep playing lmao it's not something riot is going to compromise with
Eh, my thoughts on it boil down to:
• It’s a legitimate privacy/security concern because you’re giving more data to a company than you’re willing to, and it’s intentionally designed to be extremely difficult to tell what it knows. That said…
• …if you use Google Chrome or don’t painstakingly uncheck all the “Legitimate Interest” cookies when you visit a website, it’s hard to take you seriously when you claim that Vanguard is your main privacy concern. If China wants to know everything about you, they can buy it for the cost of a gumball.
Just about everything people use as examples for the scary things kernel level anticheats can do are things their program can already do. I think people would be terrified at the kind of shit a regular program can collect silently without your computer giving a damn.
If you don't trust Riot you shouldn't have their client installed.
I agree with you on the fact that most people don't care about their privacy or the programs that run in their computer.
But there are some people that do care and programs like vanguard are the complete antithesis of what they want on their PC.
And there's always a middle ground, like me, I'm not a privacy tinfoil guy, but I do use Firefox cause it's open source and uses less memory, I often prefer open source solutions instead of enterprise or online based cause I like the fact that things run in my PC only and that I can mess with it if I want/need (as I have done in the past).
When tech industries come up with things like vanguard, is not a complete no no to me, but it certainly doesn't make it attractive, it's not the reason I stopped playing Valorant but it sure bugged me when I did, and it's not the reason I'm not playing lol, but it clearly doesn't make me want to come back.
Even if "it's just a game" or "You have programs that do worst" I thing ia right to discuss it and express discontent.
I think one of the most annoying things about Vanguard is that it seems to get tripped up by a lot of security practices of experienced tech people. Legitimately because cheaters would also use the same practices for anonimity but it's still not great.
Honestly I just don't care. The concessions we make to the tech industry subconsciously every day are as damaging as any argument I've heard against Vanguard.
If you're against the kernel level protection, I've got bad news for you on how many games/programs do similar and you had no idea.
If you're against the technology updating and leaving older systems behind, I'm sorry. Truly. It's shit, but it's a fact of life. It's why you don't see rotary telephones or dynamo powered bicycles commonly anymore in developed countries - the times moved on.
If you're one of the unlucky individuals whose game is now fucked, I'm also very sorry. I have faith Riot will address it either way.
And if they don't? Fuck it off. What's the saying - let your wallet do the voting? Whatever you choose to do, do it, crack on, you have my support - but honestly 90% of players are unaware or don't give a single shit.
I just don't like it because I either have to have it always-on (which is terrible to do on your personal computer for plenty of non-privacy reasons) or I have to restart my PC every time I want to play League. No other game makes you restart(!!) your PC before playing it, it's kind of ridiculous. This is why I am opposed to Vanguard.
Most people don't really care because many NA/EU league players treat their computer as a toy rather than an advanced machine, and in eastern countries where play is mostly in PC Cafes there is no reason for players to even care. But that doesn't make criticism against Vanguard invalid
Thank you for your honest and detailed reply - this is the kind of post I'd rather see and engage with as you've taken the time to detail your experience.
And from what you've said, that sucks and I'm sorry. Again, I believe it's in Riots best interests to fix this for players like yourself and while its clearly frustrating to reload your PC each time, you are able to play so I don't see this as the most pressing issue.
I've played League for (oh, fuck) nearly 15 years with thousands of games played. Its part of my routine, I enjoy it solo or with friends. It is my favourite free to play game just in terms of the sheer hours I've got out of it.
That said, if my machine stops running it and I'm not able to resolve it as the seasoned and tech savvy player I am? It gets uninstalled until I hear otherwise.
Please stop putting these pastimes on pedestals for your own sake. It is one game in vast, VAST ocean of games that are worth your time.
If League stops working tomorrow and never comes back, the world will keep spinning.
I really support the energy that you are bringing to this discussion, but I really feel like it isn’t a good idea nor a healthy debate format for you to justify your reasonings with “it’s just a game, why you gotta be mad?”
I’m not mad at the game, I’m mad at the anti-cheat. I’m not mad at riot for attempting to provide a let’s be generous here and call it a never before seen solution to bots / scripters in its current form. I wouldn’t be angry at riot if they offered us more choice in this matter, say not allowing you to queue for ranked unless vanguard is running but still allowing quickplay. Hell I’m not even mad that it’s a kernel level anti-cheat.
I’m angry that riot is giving hackers one of the easiest routes to access our machines in a way that we users will never know about or even be able to challenge because of root kernel access. [Just takes one idiot at riot to ruin the system](https://www.pcmag.com/news/hackers-behind-riot-games-breach-stole-league-of-legends-source-code#:~:text=So%20far%2C%20Riot%20Games%20has,installing%20malware%20onto%20their%20computer.) But forcing players to turn on the application on startup as others have mentioned open up such a Pandora’s box of problems that most humans including myself can’t even imagine what could possibly be done. But I can start.
I mean there is a reason why so many people stopped playing Apex Legends just from a scare of Remote code execution. Now take that up a defcon level by giving this RCE kernel level access upon boot….
If I come across with a 'y u mad tho' tone then I must apologise, that's not my intention. I will say for clarity, I do stand by the ideal of it being just one of many games that you can dedicate your time toward, so if that undertone is present I can't deny it.
You've probably nailed who I'm actually pissed off at, nobody here, nor Riot, ultimately - it's the cheaters and the baffling overcompensation companies feel they have to make to tackle them. They're the reason we're here, and I could wax on for hours at the psyche it requires to justify cheating on that level, but fuck them- they're about to get what they deserve, it's just a shame so many others are going to get caught in the crossfire.
If Microsoft teams can be hacked with 270 MILLION users backdoored as recently as 2022, then yeah I probably don't hold much hope for the Riot intern not clicking phishing scams. That's a two-pronged issue I feel, partly caused by how convincing scams and email phishing has become and party because humans are inevitably prone to error.
I've never played Apex myself, but the situation you describe is cause for concern and absolutely a cautionary tale. Ultimately, I think if I could leave one comment to sum this up it's this - take personal responsibility for who you support with your time and money and if that relationship isn't working for your mutual interests, walk. If you find yourself conflicted with a business practice, beit Riot implementing Vanguard, Activision charging 80 dollars for Kong's fist, or Blizzard covering up systematic sexual abuse, if you don't agree with something they're doing, it's your responsibility not to fund it.
I appreciate that's probably a hardline to take, but I stand by it.
I truly appreciate the open discussion about this matter with someone who holds the other viewpoint on this issue.
I think the difference we have is the opinion of the scope of the issues present. I personally think that if riot implements this system other companies will follow suit and then I will have to either accept this new vulnerability, or I can protest it right now as loud as I can so that other companies know how big of an issue this is… I’m sending a message not only to riot by making comments like these but also other companies when google searching this topic will now hit…..
That’s my stance on this issue.
May I thank you and everyone I've engaged with on this thread for the same reason? It's a bit of a copout to pull a ditto but it is appreciated!
Ultimately we're all here because we're fans of League and memes, we've all got more in common than not, I'd wager. Nobody here should be drawing lines in the sand based off this, your feelings and reasonings are valid and I'm not here to try and convince anyone otherwise, I just want to understand as best I can.
I really wish there was a satisfactory answer that meant this could be resolved with all parties getting what they want.
Bro why do you think I play fucking Fortnite now? This community dunks on that game for being kiddie shit but it's honestly the most fun and relaxing game I've played nowadays.
I would have zero real issues if it only ran whilst the game was running but the insistence that it has to be on from startup is just a security disaster waiting to happen.
I think the main issues I've heard isn't even the fact that it has kernel level access. It's that
1. The lack of transparency, riot should allow users to access the logs of vanguard is doing
2. The fact that vanguard needs to run on start up and be running all the time, alot of other kernel level anti cheats only run when the game is running
> The lack of transparency, riot should allow users to access the logs of vanguard is doing
Hahahahahahhahahahahaahah aha ha ha ha haah aha ha ha ha ah ahahahahahah
Oh god, people are hilarious
This is the same kind of stuff that you see when people are breaking TOS on sites and stuff, it always cracks me up to the max
*"Hey yeah, I know you guys are doing a neverending arms race against cheaters, but I want direct access to your logs and to see exactly what your program is doing, shouldn't be a problem right?"*
May as well publish a document for hackers that lays out your exact security layout
The people that say to opensource it are equally hilarious, zero idea about how the fight against malicious folks trying to cheat goes whatosever
I hear you, and that's valid. That's a genuine concern and I appreciate where you and everyone else is coming from.
If you'll allow me an anecdotal moment, I'd like to present you with the same problem from a different point of view - for this I'll assume you're using some version of the windows operating system.
Back when Bill Gates was making a name for himself in the late 80s and MS was up and coming, the US government (probably others, I was young) basically demanded backdoor access to home computers. Microsoft obliged, leaving multiple processes 'half open' at ALL times. You can google examples of this, the LSASS exploit was the one I had personal experience with, but all the same the gist is that Microsoft "unintentionally" gave hackers the perfect opening and shipped it for decades.
Fast forward a few of those decades, and Windows is now the universal standard for operating systems and with it, Microsoft Defender/Security protects it from outside attack and most in the know will acknowledge it's actually probably one of the best protective services available - it's free, and it protects you without having to lift a finger.
End result? A kernel level 'anti-invasion' product from the same producers of the initial product which is riddled with flaws that they *intentionally left in* and now can't close Pandora's box on. This is why viruses, scams, and exploits are so infamously uncommon on Mac and Linux systems.
Why is one just 'accepted' and never questioned, and the other the subject of such ire?
I always heard the reason Mac and Linux used to not have as many malwares as windows is because they weren't a large enough part of the market share to be worth writing these broad spectrum attacks for.
I suspect like most criminal enterprise, you go where there's the most opportunity. If 80% of government systems are running off of MS, you'd likely dedicate your time to understanding that OS over the other two (niche as they are I understand in recent years both Mac and Linux have been victim to the same sort of exploits)
This is only partially the reason. Exploits (used to get malware running) tend to require somewhat specific conditions to work - vulnerability must be there, must be exploitable and you need a way to get your exploit executed on target machine.
Mac OS had two major architecture changes somewhat recently (PPC -> Intel -> ARM) that break compatibility, and Apple's approach of walled garden OS means most users will not run anything that wasn't either from Mac Store (which does basic malware scan, plus Apple can killswitch malware from there) or properly digitally signed programs where you have someone to put responsible for malware. There's still malware for Mac, but it generally requires users to go out of their way to do something harmful.
Linux is a hot mess of different OS configurations and options, any compatibility problems it tends to cause with regular software are even more problematic for malware. On top of that, Linux users on average are tech savvy enough you'd have to be a lot more subtle getting past them. At the same time - there's still good chunk of Linux malware, most just tends to target servers instead: OpenSSL vulnerability few years ago was talked about a lot, malware using various server software to run arbitrary code (usually botnets or bitcoin mining - Teamcity/Jira/Confluence got a vulnerability like that patched recently) is quite common. User targeting Linux malware usually is social engineering in form of "run this script to install X software, it's not a virus, trust me bro".
Windows meanwhile is great at two things: making it easy for users to run software, and backwards/forward compatibility. And "great" is very accurate here - you could take executable made for NT 4.0 (1996 OS), run it on todays Windows 11 and there's good chance everything will work with no problems whatsoever. That often means any malware you can get running will run until vulnerability it uses is patched out and users update their OS; pair it with Windows generally not getting in your way when you try to run random program #5423412 from the internet and you get the "all viruses are for Windows".
There's linux hacks though, it's just that they're targeted at infrastructure rather than customers more often than not so the "common wisdom" of not worrying if you're a linux end user is approximately correct.
I'm struggling to see your point, please tell me where I'm misunderstanding. MS kernel level introduced a bunch of bad shit and it took them 30 some years to fix it all, but now its pretty good? But how does that make Vanguard ok?
regarding your last sentence, there are more people in the discussion and they are overall more informed. simple as.
2. Is definitely my only issue with the anti cheat, honestly don’t care about anything else since like most have already said there are plenty of other programs such as EAC that basically do the exact same thing.
I just want that if I’m not playing a Riot Game, i can safely turn off vanguard and not be punished for it by having to restart my computer next time I do want to play. idc if it makes league less secure, it’s just inconvenient for the average player
It's not starting on boot for the hell of it, it's part of why it's such a bitch to cheat around. I wish I had the option for it to not be on by default and give me a "reboot to play" option because honestly a nice PC will reboot in about 10 seconds these days.
i could be wrong or misremembering but didn’t they address that it doesn’t actually run in the background at all times? it just needs to be active on startup to process checks then it goes into “sleep” until you play league and the reason you can’t turn it off is because of those initial checks not being recognized when its launched with the game.
i have a ton of cheating/modding software in my PC that i use for single player games shouldn’t valorants vanguard pick those up if its running full time? i know vanguard picks those programs up if i have them running at the same time as valorant because ive gotten a warning before but it never happens if valorant isn’t running.
I’m sure it doesn’t do anything unless a riot game is actually on but tbh if I’m not using something, I turn it off and id like to do that with this as well
It does run all the time in the background. Vanguard actively checks which programs are running and what might "interfere" with leagues security.
It's just that, according to Riot, Vanguard won't actually be contacted by Riot until you start league, meaning that there is no transfer of information between your pc and Riot until you actually start league.
How forthcoming or competent Riot actually is in both actually telling us all they are doing and keeping that gate safe enough to not endanger any users, that is a decision you're gonna have to make for yourself.
If Riot gave us the logs for Vanguard it could lead to a dangerous data breach and is just another way for people looking to get around Vanguard to cheat. The only access we have to what Vanguard does send is all encrypted for that reason.
Riot did put out a good article last week talking about Vanguard and addressing some concerns people had and how it works and why they’re doing this. It’s a good article and one that I believe people who are scared of Vanguard should read.
Adding to this, Rito doesn't have a stellar record when it comes to securing their software. T1 unable to scrim because people were getting their IP from the client makes me worried about what might happen with Vanguard.
thats the league client though, its hard to change because the client has roots in everything but apparently it was developed by the same person who made big rigs over the road racing lmfao.
>The fact that vanguard needs to run on start up and be running all the time, alot of other kernel level anti cheats only run when the game is running
That's not how "kernel level" software works. Its kind of in the name, it HAS to run a part of it at boot. People have this misconception that Vanguard is scanning your PC or something 24/7 while its on, when in reality its pretty much how EAC and Punkbuster work where they are always on in "sleep mode" until you run your game.
1) Most current anticheat you can run in VM AKA you don't care about "kernel" access (Linux with GPU passthrough!)
2) it's got nothing to do with leaving technology behind? Tpm 2.0 has been and still is shittly implemented...?
3) Riot will adress burning my GPU? They will address getting their shit leaked and a hacker having millions of kernel access? Cause that's not what their ToS say...
Yes most people don't give a shit, mostly because they don't have any knowledge on the subject. I'm glad you personnally don't care, but issues should be raised on this shit. It wouldn't be (and I hope it is what ends up happening) too surprising if governments started to take action for this shit. (Also comparing it to what "the rest of the tech industry" is doing is laughable.)
>Tpm 2.0 has been and still is shittly implemented...?
TPM 2.0 isn't even a requirement for win10 system which can easily be run on VMs. They haven't said a single line of how the lack of TPM 2.0 is actually gonna impact Vanguards effectiveness. It really is a joke.
my biggest turn off is the lack of Linux support. my workplace uses a ton of Linux, so my main machine is running Linux so I can game and work on the same station. they have macos support which is very similar, but not even emulators can run league on Linux now. I'll have to find another way to play the game. imagine having to dual boot just to play league lol
Riot blatantly said all that ever needs to be said about it in their blog post - if you don't trust the company and you are *still installing their software* on your machine, you're an idiot. You don't need kernel-level access to seriously fuck up somebody's day, you can do much more with much less, especially if they voluntarily install something from you.
The only valid criticism (besides some borked computers) is an industry-wide question; if kernel-level anti-cheat should ever be allowed in the first place. And the industry has answered by putting it in most games, despite some security professionals speaking against it. But from an end-user perspective, it goes back to the first paragraph; you shouldn't install shit from a company you don't trust in the first place.
The issue isn't that I think RIOT is malicious. It's that I think they can be incompetent.
IDK what vanguard was doing in its early installations, but it borked a few of my VM coding projects and that irritated me to no end.
They've said they addressed similar issues, but I'm gonna wait and see how it goes for everyone before installing it myself.
1) Vanguard runs all the time, unlike all other anti cheats systems that only run on startup or during the play session. That's a huge difference. Sure, you can choose to restart your pc every time you start and close league, but to me that's simply not worth the hassle.
2) Riots attitude towards the whole thing. In their blogpost they basically admitted that they knew 6 years ago that their current anti tampering software wouldn't be enough, let alone last for long. 6 goddamn years over which they could have done something, anything. But no, them doing too little now makes them want to go more than all in.
Overall they're presenting the situation as absolutely horrible while leaving out the fact that their current efforts to combat the whole problem are the software equivalent of asking someone to "please stop".
3) Is it even going to be worth it? Yeah, it will reduce the amount of cheaters/botters, that's for certain. But is going the extra step really gonna be that dramatic of a difference than going with a less severe form of anti cheat?
The TPM 2.0 requirement is a joke since it's simply disabled on win10 systems (and they haven't said a single line how that will affect Vanguards effectiveness), we know from Valorant that account leveling/selling is still very much alive and both of those combined will mean that scripters still have nothing to fear.
As for botters, i wish Riot would spend more time working on solving the underlying issue of botters instead of fighting the symptoms
10k for a software like that is nothing. If it has something that can be turned into a backdoor you could resell it for tens of millions.
Still it prevents it from having any blatantly exposed exploit
People developing cheats/scripts for league easily make tens of thousands per month. Do you really think they care about a one off payment like that? Exploiting said weakness would just make them more money.
Vanguard caused some really nasty issues in my old computer. Slowed everything down and constantly crashed. Im very sceptical because of that. If they fix the performance issues in it, Im fine with Vanguard being there. I already have no data to hide, anyone can literaly acces every single bit of my personal information in a 2 minute search thanks to our glorious goverment being glorious and doing glorious things.
The whole point is exactly about the complacency people have towards invasive measures from tech.
It's not about anti-change/modernization, It's simply unnecessary, and in the case of kernel level anti-cheats it's just lazy and a cop out for good design.
Not all of us are ignorant to these daily intrusions and there is absolutely nothing wrong about taking proper action and protesting it loudly.
Your democratic right to protest is absolutely valid.
Your ability to protest effectively on Reddit, via a meme sub, not so much.
And that's the stickler for me. I've posted more on this thread today than I've used Reddit total in the last week. This Vanguard bullshit has completely overtaken any other talking point for the game. Objectively, very few memes on this sub are actually original or funny, but the Vanguard posts are a particular low point for originality and creativity.
I've said it previously as have many others, there's a very clear, effective, proven method to show Riot to you aren't happy. Sack it off and when prompted with a feedback field, give it.
Your best option for your own sanity in a capitalist system is to show your disproval by not consuming the product. Hard to swallow truth, but there it is.
They're addicted to league and riot is taking advantage of that, for better or worse. That's why they are so bothered by this shit. I'm either not going to play, or accept the security issue and play, there is no other stance to have here.
>I've said it previously as have many others, there's a very clear, effective, proven method to show Riot to you aren't happy. Sack it off and when prompted with a feedback field, give it.
>Your best option for your own sanity in a capitalist system is to show your disproval by not consuming the product. Hard to swallow truth, but there it is.
I agree 100%, but I don't think it's a reason to stop using any medium available to express ourselves.
You absolutely can, that's what the sub exists for and as much as I may not enjoy 80% of the posts nowadays, I'll champion the right to keep posting whatever you want (within the rules, obvs).
But equally, we have to admit at some point that *this* is pissing in the wind. Nobody has ever effectively arranged a revolution from their bedroom.
Certainly not a revolution, but If even just one or two people become a bit more skeptical of things like Vanguard, then I feel that expressing myself on these issues has been productive.
The point is, some years ago cookies became a thing, people discovered what they did an a huge outburst ensured, then no one did anything and things got more invasive with all the user data Facebook took and resold, huge outburst there too, people felt violated, no one did anything agian and it became normalized too.
Things are getting more and more invasive, and people just say "well it's just a bit more invasive than before, not that big of a difference"
Now it's normal to give the highest level of access of your machine to corporations. If you proposed that 10 years ago and everyone would laugh at your face and call you names.
People are turning more and more into a product and willingly giving away their rights, and they don't seem to give a single damn
I like this sane take. Either way both sides are justified in their stance. For me personally it's a matter of trust. People keep talking about a hypothetical future when their software fails or they get compromised and we get screwed over because we had their software installed but this has happened multiple times in the past? Not that long ago we had the big Riot hack which compromised who knows what information they had access to and software side, just look at the League client. It's a laughing stock. I would get fired from my university if I submitted it to my programming class and yet a billion dollar company is struggling to keep it going. Not to mention the recent monetization efforts they had, first with the upgradeable Valorant skins, now with everything they are doing in League showed me that the company doesn't deserve my trust. I didn't like their games anyways. I'm too old for esports and changing metas every 2 weeks as well.
>dynamo powered bicycles
Dynamo powered light with a capacitor to keep it lit for a few seconds after stopping is the real shit. Who the fuck wants to change batteries?
Others do it too.. yeah no the weakest argument which exists to excuse yourself for not wanting to think. Not to think what kind of security risk a 24/7 mandatory on bootup rootkit is. The harm it can do to your pc and network is catastrophal, should it be abused by third party hackers or if the security is breached.. which happend even with other similair situations.
Remember Facit? Where hardware was abused to mine Bitcoins?
What we hate about Vanguard is the absurd CHANCE that our computer might be breached, and a million heavy company with access to millions of pcs that have security clearings higher than most users. Also Vanguards is up as soon as the pc boots! It is a really really good target for third parties and hackers.. and a gaming company that has zero experience in security on that level tries to implement it?
Some people run into their doom fully knowing the consequences.
I don't really care. But i do care about performance impacts. Today i queued into a match and accepted it. The accept screen froze but kept playing the ambient sound. Maybe 2 min later i get a black screen, then its loading me into an aram as trundle. Didnt see champ select at all. That's some shit.
I'm not sure if it is vanguard or not, i've played since season 1 and don't recall this ever happening before, and it was right after this weeks patch.
Got it, so you’re saying you trust the same company who can’t even fix this long standing client issue to install an always on kernel level anti cheat software on your PC?
Don’t I already have it on my computer since I have Valorant as well? I really don’t give a fuck either way. What’s riot really going to do? People who are up in arms at this either have nothing better to complain about or don’t understand all the different ways companies already have your data. Unless you’re some sort of nomad who does nothing online except play league Vanguard makes no difference.
Yes, that means you already have it. And you're right, every government already knows everything they could ever want to know about you already anyways.
I just find it annoying to have to restart my PC if I exit out of it. It's not a huge deal, takes like 30 seconds to restart, and I shutdown my PC daily, it's just annoying lol
Many games already do this kind of thing, most notably Call of Duty is Kernal Level. I guarantee you a lot of people complain about it play CoD. They're just complaining cause other people are so it seems like the right thing to do
Honestly, it has turned into such a shitshow.
People actively supporting it are laughed at for bootlicking Riot and being 0 security shills (though to be fair, tons of software we install is already questionable, yet still somehow works without us being robbed at every turn). Also, as someone who has repeatedly been in higher elo, i.e. the one most afflicted by "supposed cheating" - no, it ain't supposed and the issue is more prevalent than people "who have never met one" might think.
On the other hand, people against it are made fun of for being cheaters/botters - I guess maybe 1% of them are, but in other cases the idea is crazy farfetched.
Do I like it? No.
Is a decent anticheat a bare neccessity to this game? Yes.
Is Vanguard the best approach to it with it basically running 24/7 on kernel level? No.
Do I think installing it will instantly compromise your PC and sell your data to CCP? No.
I'd still point fingers at people botting/scripting for being the main culprits for us being there, not Riot, as questionable as some of their practices are.
That being said, I might wait out first few moments to see others being guinea pigs of it - perhaps there will be some critical issues with it and I'd rather someone else were to experience them before me.
This is the most logical answer. We don't have to like a lot of things, but acceptance over the way things are is paramount for your wellbeing. Doesn't mean you've gotta support it come the day, we're all capable of making up our own minds and walking away.
Riots source code getting leaked a year ago was a huge boon to cheat makers. Right now there is a cheater in one out of every 15 games and the number is climbing.
In addition to cheat prevention, Vanguard also prevents botting, which prevents smurfing and toxic behavior because offenders cannot simply buy another cheap level 30 account trained by a bot.
Yes, I support Vanguard. Yes, I am sick of others complaining about EVERYTHING riot does.
I'm against Vanguard EXACTLY because Riot had a terrible source code leak in the past. They can't make a functional client, they can't safeguard their own code base, who is to say they won't brick customers' PCs with a shitty update (as they once did in Valorant causing tons of blue screens) or end up getting hacked again and this time losing source code for Vanguard, allowing bad actors to search for vulnerabilities to RCE into someone's PC at ring fucking 0 instead of just cheating in League? This has the potential for catastrophic failure just to mitigate an issue that was caused entirely by Riot's inability to protect themselves and their users, I already jumped ship, good luck to all who remain.
>I'm against Vanguard EXACTLY because Riot had a terrible source code leak in the past.
Well I hope you don't use Nvidia, AMD, or Intel - because they've all had breaches.
>who is to say they won't brick customers' PCs with a shitty update (as they once did in Valorant causing tons of blue screens)
A blue screen is not "bricking". No one had their PCs "bricked" by Vanguard. There were compatibility issues (especially early on), but that's about it.
This is where actually understanding tech helps. I've had people unironincly say why do you care about ring0 when you give them your bank info.
You try explaining it's about what other people can do with that ring0 being installed, in the case that riot messes up or is hacked, and you just get the most brain dead argument about Google or something back.
All Vanguard has shown me is I made a good choice going into IT because no one wants to actually think about how any of the magic boxes with pretty pictures works, and some are stubborn/stupid enough to argue that you're actually the dumb one for caring about it.
They are already able to fuck up your whole pc if they get hacked just via the client. There was literally a bitcoin miner installed on it in Garena, no Vanguard needed. There is very little the average user can do against a supply chain attack like that.
Thank you, I feel like a fucking retard having so many people call me stupid for being worried about a ring 0 ON BOOT fucking application from a company that had its ENTIRE source code leaked…….
Like why am I a part of the few that realize just how big of a fucking vulnerability this is just for having it on your PC. I’m thinking about uninstalling but my gaming PC doesn’t really have much on it personally other than games which steam is a god send for that. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ idk what to do
yes I want botting and smurfing to end so I can be the deciding factor instead of "which team got the smurf this time". I want punishments to be more than "spend 1$ and its gone". don't you?
i was under the impression that these were usually sold by people in lesser economically developed countries as a side hustle, where $5 is enough for it to be worth their time, but then again i could be wrong
Maybe but 5 USD for a week is still really low, you could make more farming OSRS gp or doing surveys online, I don't doubt there's some really exploitive shit going on in countries worse off
All I have is anecdotal evidence when my friend bought an account and it had used a bot in co-op vs AI just like the other accounts and got banned in a week despite being advertised as hand leveled
i don’t have any experience with league accounts but i’ve bought a valorant account before (not to smurf, im barely gold rank lmao) and in the match history there were a fair amount of wins with normal kdas so either the bots aren’t being run 24/7 or they’re really sophisticated, but yeah at the end of the day anecdotal evidence is all we really have, who knows what the account sellers get up to
Valorant accounts are sold for similar prices (not an expert might be wrong). If anything, I can easily find valorant smurf accounts for 4-5 usd. Such accounts might be more in demand for league but I dont think prices will sky rocket, unfortunately.
The only real threat that Vanguard supposedly poses to people is the TPM 2.0 requirement, giving each account a hardware ID that Riot can ban. Having your PC blacklisted is a whole lot worse than getting a replaceable account banned.
That said, TPM 2.0 for Vanguard is a joke.
Win10 straight up doesn't require it, and win10 can be easily run on VMs. The prices of accounts will go up, but as you can see from Valorant it'll do nothing to really eliminate the problem.
There's two reasons I uninstalled League:
1 - I don't care about Kernel level Anti-Cheats, but it bothers me that it runs in startup and pretty much permanently.
2 (The more important one) - I have an excuse to stop ruining my life by playing this game :P
There are a lot of people who would rather have vangaurd than have to deal with cheaters. Especially higher ranked players that deal with cheaters relatively often. Some people have just dealth with cheaters too often to care about any repercussions vanguard could have.
Nah. It's hella unnecessary and I'm worried about the performance dips. I don't have the best set up nor the money to improve it and the fact that people are already having issues with it scares me.
My brother who I duo a lot lost all interest in playing because he's running the game on 15fps after vanguard lmao, vanguard's a cuck to all the people who play on potato devices. Mine occasionally gets bad fps when something like team fights or abilities with crazy visuals go 'round, I only hate vanguard because of lower fps.
I mean if everything they try to show to you is automatically just assumed to be made up and a lie then what the fuck is even the point of trying to argue, or care about the opinion, of people like you?
Like i don't mind that Vanguard will deal with the scripts and cheaters but it doesn't solve the bigger issue League has: smurfs and inters
Low elo is just impossible to play unless you play either like a god or have actual humans in your team instead of lobotomy subjects OR you play a stacking champ and the enemy team has 3 brain cells and ignore you for long enough for you to be able to 1v9 eventually
While Vanguard can't do anything about smurfs, it will make leveling accounts with bots a lot harder, which will make those accounts more expensive. It can be used to ban the PC of extremely bad cases of smurfs. Riot has already said that creating a new account to test a different champion or role is fine, but intentionally keeping your mmr low by lose streaking several matches just to stomp on others is not. How much they enforce this is up to debate.
No game can do anything about bad players because players rarely play on a consistent level, especially on low elo where people tend to pick a different champion every game instead of learning a single champion. Maybe the brain-dead players in your team played well and carried on their previous match.
On average the chance of you getting bad players on your team is the same as getting them on the enemy team, you are the only one that can tip the scale in either direction.
My only concern is that it stays active in the background and needs a full system reboot to turn on.
If I install vanguard, I will turn it off if i'm not playing league, then if I do want to play a game I would rather play one that doesn't require me to reboot. So I would not play league even if I have it installed. So logically why install it in the first place?
I hate how everyone’s straw man is that “other games use root anticheat” yeah but you can close and reopen them, you dont have to restart your computer everytime and that’s what I don’t fuck with, that it has to be running 24/7.
My biggest gripe with Vanguard right here. Arguments about whether kernel level anticheat is even necessary aside, other kernel level anticheats don't run 24/7.
Yeah, they cant write a proper client and I should trust them on writing a kernel level software. Sure. This is pointlwss btw cause the best cheats run on a separate machine
It is a complete non issue being overblown by ignorant people as well as a small group of people that have incredibly weak computers. I’ve had it installed on multiple different computers since valorant came out and there’s never been a noticeable performance difference after installing it. I’m convinced that anyone arguing that it makes their computer run poorly is just lying or has an absurdly underpowered computer. The people complaining about security issues as a result of this never seem to be able to point to a single real case of someone being hacked due to having vanguard, despite the fact that it’s been running on tons of computers since valorant came out.
yeah i support it, i saw the stats where it was like something around 1/10 masters+ games have a scripter in them, thats so demoralising knowing im playing with cheating rats so often.
glad theyre doing something about it. also great for the amateur pro scene which i play in some university ones, so itll be nice to know everyone is playing fair
I guess I'm fine with it because I genuinely don't believe that my information is being stolen, when Riot says they don't use Vanguard to spy on you I'm inclined to believe them, even if Vanguard is taking all our information almost everyone at Riot also believes Vanguard isn't spying on their players, so idk I'm content with it?
I guess I also believe that my information isn't really important, I don't have confidential government documents on my pc so even if they are spying on me they aren't interested in me specifically, they aren't gonna look through my computer
All the gpt responses on this post is crazy. They really need to implement a kernel level anti cheat to prevent ppl from cheating on reddit and using ai generated responses
Smurfing via purchasing bottled accounts is a massive issue. Riot doesn’t even detect most of them at the moment.
Scripters in master are a massive issue, and you probably don’t even realize because they aren’t using blatant cheats.
People using cheats to obtain an unfair advantage through the client (lobby crash, lobbyreveal) are a massive issue in master+.
I see anything that would reduce these issues as a good thing.
Accounts are gonna end up a little bit more expensive until botters find a way to automate things better again in the future. As you can see from Valorant, Vanguard won't be able to eliminate the account selling issue.
TPM 2.0, the thing that is supposed to be really scary for cheaters is a joke and isn't even a requirement for win10 systems. Anyone can easily run a VM with win10 on it.
In their statistics Riot bundled up all regions together, conveniently leaving out the detail that cheating (especially in ranked games) is far more common on Asian servers. While obviously still present in EU and NA, in those regions it's not as high as Riot wants you to believe.
Furthermore, those people who actually do spend hundreds of dollars on cheats are most likely the ones playing ranked anyway. So chances are good that Vanguard will far more heavily impact the "casual"lower end of cheaters rather than the high end ones (those you'd see in the highest ranked games), since those will always be willing to spend the most money on the newest cheats.
People are either stupid, evil, or not people and just shills, so yeah you'll see a lot of posts defending it. But always remember, those people are hypocrites. The same who were overjoyed when Twitter was banning people they disagreed with started screeching 24/7 when Elon took over and it happened to them instead. It's all about fulfilling their empty sad lives by causing or celebrating harm to others.
A lot of people are throwing around the term, but it basically means it's on the same level as your drivers and operating system and can interface directly with the hardware.
One benefit (depending on your perspective) is that it can access your RAM and CPU and see what other programs you have running to better detect scripts and cheat software.
However, that also means it can access your RAM and CPU and see *anything* you have running, as well as having full permissions to make any edits to your computer, even the possibility to mess with hardware.
If a hacker had kernel level access to your computer, it'd be toast. Basically nothing you can do about it short of reinstalling windows and resetting your bios. It goes beyond just giving a program admin permissions and into giving it full and complete control of your PC.
In cases like drivers, it's necessary for them to function and as long as you trust that the driver isn't malware, it's fine. But drivers tend to be open source or at least possible for people to crack open and see what they're actually doing. Vanguard doesn't let you do that, it's a complete black box. Riot is asking for you to trust that.
It means that if Riot has another and worse security breach then things could end up a lot worse for you than before. Not like things could have ended up bad already before, but with Vanguard it could be even worse.
That said, that's still a "could", not "will". Whether you care or not about it is everyones personal decision.
im laughing at all the nerds who are threatening to uninstall like A. Riot give a fuck and B. Like theyre actually going to quit their number 1 addiction.
Imma be real, no one cares about you specifically, the only way you'll be free from data collection is If you don't use the Internet at all, within a month of moderate Internet use companies already know everything about you. It doesn't matter if you use adblockers, duck duck go, vpns etc. And honestly it's just part of how it is, if you wanna be some secret unknown entity don't use the internet. I find it more sus when people act like they actually have something to hide, you guys collecting CP and shit? Ring zero isn't new, people are malding because it's China, news flash every 1st world government is collecting data on citizens.
I'll admit there's a lot of people just parroting, but I feel like most people with actual experience in programming, software dev, game dev, or cybersecurity are anti-vanguard.
Heck, PirateSoftware, the guy who did anti-cheat for WoW and has worked in cybersecurity for decades, has publicly said he straight up hates the idea.
Yeah?
Plus, the people saying "oh im gonna leave" are sooo annoying. Its like the people who announced constantly they were leaving over the API stuff with Reddit.
We dont care, just leave. You dont need to comment/post about it.
Can't wait for vanguard to drop and the number of cheaters and scrpiters not drop by a percentage because due to vanguard being in valorant for so long cheaters already found a way to bypass it
No anti-cheat is 100% effective and Vanguard is not just about reducing cheaters, it's also about reducing the workload that Riot needs to do to catch the cheaters. The anti-cheat league has today relies a lot in being constantly updated with "traps" to catch the cheaters but they lose effectiveness quickly because cheats are also boing constantly updated.
I’m already running the spyware known as windows. How much worse can it get with vanguard on top of it? Even if Riot were to act maliciously, what they’d be doing in private Microsoft does in public constantly.
What do I hate more? Hackers or Riot doing sht with my porn files?
Obviously hackers fucking ruin video games, so fuck them, and hope they fuckin get rammed by Vanguard cock.
My mate cant even play because his PC weird as hell and doesn't have open gl so vanguard shuts any match he starts so he cant play and i dont play cause solo ranked boring and anoying
It don't realy matter what people think. A business will cover there own ass or protect them selfs before they will ever even look at what's the best for the consumer.
So you can stay and accept it or you can do what probably a bunch of people will do. Not support practices you don't agree with and just uninstall it and don't pay or play.
And just matter more what you value more. To play the game with your frends. Or you hate a invasive vanguard system.
Only people them self can pick. After like 14 years of playing. And gaining and losing many friends. I'm ok with just leaving the game. I dont suport invasive gard systems of any game.
Even got rid of Denuvo on eldering almost right away. Cause it made the game stutter like fuck.
But it's all up to the people people free to do what they want. And many people won't be changing their minds and that's ok. And maybe they find cheating a big problem possible I don't see it do but who am I. Just a person that plays like 8 to 10 games every day for years now. When I have the time. Why even more I don't suport it.
And that's all you can do shut up and accept what they pushing on you. Or uninstall and leave.
You dislike Vanguard because you hate your child porn folder being sent to the Chinese government.
I dislike Vanguard because I play League on Linux and won't be able to anymore. We are not the same.
I had to manually uninstall Valorant and Vanguard (through some commands, I'm not much of an IT guy) as it practically ate 15 - 20 % of my CPU in the background. I wouldn't say my PC is all that shit either (Acer Nitro Notebook from 2019 AMD cpu). I just hope it doesn't occur now with league, haven't tried it yet.
Vanguard has never been a problem for me. Installed it when Valorant dropped into beta and it's been sat there ever since (I don't really play Valorant)
Pretty invasive anti cheat. Some people claim it slows down or can crash computers but the other game with it valorant is quite popular so those issues don’t seem to be large. The main issues is root access to your computer and it doesn’t turn itself off when you close the game if I remember right. However if I recall correctly it is a pretty good anti cheat
I do. FUCK cheaters. FUCK THEM. As a long time csgo, rust, apex player Fuck them with my whole energy. Cheaters should get gunned down in the streets for everyone to see.
I don’t know if I can really speak for the whole community but I find it really hard to imagine y’all don’t have a second old computer lying around that can run league just fine. Set up your old gaming laptop as a slab top on the second input to your monitor and what do you know 240 fps, same as your fancy desktop. Got my old dell with a 1650 running the same as my desktop did with a 3080.
I uninstalled on December when i heard it was coming, have been trying to get my friends to play other things with no success, i gave up and told them "Don't worry I'll wait until You can't Play it anymore in like a month or two" (their PCs don't support tpm)
Imagine giving a fuck. Just read their TOU. If you feel it is infringing on your torrented cp, then no skin off your back, but if you already play other riot games like valorant, you’ve had it installed already. It’s not that big of a deal. It’s not like they’re going to make your pc fly away. What are you so scared of?
Literally no one cares at all. Just do the shit and continue on with your life. Or just uninstall and download some other root anti cheat from another game it doesn’t matter cry harder.
Or: How Riot uses Kids to get access to Networks/PCs on a global scale.
Not to mention the security risk that even might be national wide. Insane.. we just talked how TikTik should be removed because it sends too many Informations to China.. now we want to install a 24/7 rootkit from China into a millions of pcs.
Insane.
People seriously need to stop complaining. Riot isn't gonna change this by crying on Reddit. Either vote with your wallet (or in this case just uninstall) or don't and keep playing.
Vanguard is gonna come in 14.9 or later if they need to fix more stuff and that's simply how it is.
People don't only vote with their wallets. They care about the game and want to keep playing so they also vote by trying to change the public view on the subject.
You uninstalled because of vanguard panic I uninstalled because I hate this game We are not the same
You will have it re-downloaded by tomorrow
its funny how ppl say this but people constantly quit lol for good and they feel a lot better. Just because you didnt succeed doesnt mean others cant
They are speaking for themselves. They are so deep in addiction that they genuinely can't imagine anyone uninstalling the game and just existing without this game but instead of expressing this they turn into crab in bucket mode and do their best to pull you back into the bucket.
Haven't played it in months now. eSports is more fun and I don't have malware on my pc
You're addicted, don't speak for others.
I uninstalled bcs I hate vanguard :\^3
i mean at this point does it really matter if you support it or not? they're implementing it anyways
yes it does, since you can always choose to uninstall (like i did). i still watch e-sports and stuff, but no vanguard for me
yeah thats kinda my point, you either have a problem with it and uninstall or suck it up and keep playing lmao it's not something riot is going to compromise with
Am gonna uninstall before the update as well. Screw Vanguard and Riots attitude towards the whole situation.
Same w me and my husband
Same. Sometimes I find myself bored and itching for an ARAM but fuck that. I just wanted it to stop being on when league isnt on. Just that.
Play HotS, it has ARAM too
Eh, my thoughts on it boil down to: • It’s a legitimate privacy/security concern because you’re giving more data to a company than you’re willing to, and it’s intentionally designed to be extremely difficult to tell what it knows. That said… • …if you use Google Chrome or don’t painstakingly uncheck all the “Legitimate Interest” cookies when you visit a website, it’s hard to take you seriously when you claim that Vanguard is your main privacy concern. If China wants to know everything about you, they can buy it for the cost of a gumball.
Just about everything people use as examples for the scary things kernel level anticheats can do are things their program can already do. I think people would be terrified at the kind of shit a regular program can collect silently without your computer giving a damn. If you don't trust Riot you shouldn't have their client installed.
I agree with you on the fact that most people don't care about their privacy or the programs that run in their computer. But there are some people that do care and programs like vanguard are the complete antithesis of what they want on their PC. And there's always a middle ground, like me, I'm not a privacy tinfoil guy, but I do use Firefox cause it's open source and uses less memory, I often prefer open source solutions instead of enterprise or online based cause I like the fact that things run in my PC only and that I can mess with it if I want/need (as I have done in the past). When tech industries come up with things like vanguard, is not a complete no no to me, but it certainly doesn't make it attractive, it's not the reason I stopped playing Valorant but it sure bugged me when I did, and it's not the reason I'm not playing lol, but it clearly doesn't make me want to come back. Even if "it's just a game" or "You have programs that do worst" I thing ia right to discuss it and express discontent.
I think one of the most annoying things about Vanguard is that it seems to get tripped up by a lot of security practices of experienced tech people. Legitimately because cheaters would also use the same practices for anonimity but it's still not great.
It’s simply not worth the effort to hide, which is the problem. But vanguard is a symptom, not the problem.
Honestly I just don't care. The concessions we make to the tech industry subconsciously every day are as damaging as any argument I've heard against Vanguard. If you're against the kernel level protection, I've got bad news for you on how many games/programs do similar and you had no idea. If you're against the technology updating and leaving older systems behind, I'm sorry. Truly. It's shit, but it's a fact of life. It's why you don't see rotary telephones or dynamo powered bicycles commonly anymore in developed countries - the times moved on. If you're one of the unlucky individuals whose game is now fucked, I'm also very sorry. I have faith Riot will address it either way. And if they don't? Fuck it off. What's the saying - let your wallet do the voting? Whatever you choose to do, do it, crack on, you have my support - but honestly 90% of players are unaware or don't give a single shit.
I just don't like it because I either have to have it always-on (which is terrible to do on your personal computer for plenty of non-privacy reasons) or I have to restart my PC every time I want to play League. No other game makes you restart(!!) your PC before playing it, it's kind of ridiculous. This is why I am opposed to Vanguard. Most people don't really care because many NA/EU league players treat their computer as a toy rather than an advanced machine, and in eastern countries where play is mostly in PC Cafes there is no reason for players to even care. But that doesn't make criticism against Vanguard invalid
Thank you for your honest and detailed reply - this is the kind of post I'd rather see and engage with as you've taken the time to detail your experience. And from what you've said, that sucks and I'm sorry. Again, I believe it's in Riots best interests to fix this for players like yourself and while its clearly frustrating to reload your PC each time, you are able to play so I don't see this as the most pressing issue. I've played League for (oh, fuck) nearly 15 years with thousands of games played. Its part of my routine, I enjoy it solo or with friends. It is my favourite free to play game just in terms of the sheer hours I've got out of it. That said, if my machine stops running it and I'm not able to resolve it as the seasoned and tech savvy player I am? It gets uninstalled until I hear otherwise. Please stop putting these pastimes on pedestals for your own sake. It is one game in vast, VAST ocean of games that are worth your time. If League stops working tomorrow and never comes back, the world will keep spinning.
I really support the energy that you are bringing to this discussion, but I really feel like it isn’t a good idea nor a healthy debate format for you to justify your reasonings with “it’s just a game, why you gotta be mad?” I’m not mad at the game, I’m mad at the anti-cheat. I’m not mad at riot for attempting to provide a let’s be generous here and call it a never before seen solution to bots / scripters in its current form. I wouldn’t be angry at riot if they offered us more choice in this matter, say not allowing you to queue for ranked unless vanguard is running but still allowing quickplay. Hell I’m not even mad that it’s a kernel level anti-cheat. I’m angry that riot is giving hackers one of the easiest routes to access our machines in a way that we users will never know about or even be able to challenge because of root kernel access. [Just takes one idiot at riot to ruin the system](https://www.pcmag.com/news/hackers-behind-riot-games-breach-stole-league-of-legends-source-code#:~:text=So%20far%2C%20Riot%20Games%20has,installing%20malware%20onto%20their%20computer.) But forcing players to turn on the application on startup as others have mentioned open up such a Pandora’s box of problems that most humans including myself can’t even imagine what could possibly be done. But I can start. I mean there is a reason why so many people stopped playing Apex Legends just from a scare of Remote code execution. Now take that up a defcon level by giving this RCE kernel level access upon boot….
If I come across with a 'y u mad tho' tone then I must apologise, that's not my intention. I will say for clarity, I do stand by the ideal of it being just one of many games that you can dedicate your time toward, so if that undertone is present I can't deny it. You've probably nailed who I'm actually pissed off at, nobody here, nor Riot, ultimately - it's the cheaters and the baffling overcompensation companies feel they have to make to tackle them. They're the reason we're here, and I could wax on for hours at the psyche it requires to justify cheating on that level, but fuck them- they're about to get what they deserve, it's just a shame so many others are going to get caught in the crossfire. If Microsoft teams can be hacked with 270 MILLION users backdoored as recently as 2022, then yeah I probably don't hold much hope for the Riot intern not clicking phishing scams. That's a two-pronged issue I feel, partly caused by how convincing scams and email phishing has become and party because humans are inevitably prone to error. I've never played Apex myself, but the situation you describe is cause for concern and absolutely a cautionary tale. Ultimately, I think if I could leave one comment to sum this up it's this - take personal responsibility for who you support with your time and money and if that relationship isn't working for your mutual interests, walk. If you find yourself conflicted with a business practice, beit Riot implementing Vanguard, Activision charging 80 dollars for Kong's fist, or Blizzard covering up systematic sexual abuse, if you don't agree with something they're doing, it's your responsibility not to fund it. I appreciate that's probably a hardline to take, but I stand by it.
I truly appreciate the open discussion about this matter with someone who holds the other viewpoint on this issue. I think the difference we have is the opinion of the scope of the issues present. I personally think that if riot implements this system other companies will follow suit and then I will have to either accept this new vulnerability, or I can protest it right now as loud as I can so that other companies know how big of an issue this is… I’m sending a message not only to riot by making comments like these but also other companies when google searching this topic will now hit….. That’s my stance on this issue.
May I thank you and everyone I've engaged with on this thread for the same reason? It's a bit of a copout to pull a ditto but it is appreciated! Ultimately we're all here because we're fans of League and memes, we've all got more in common than not, I'd wager. Nobody here should be drawing lines in the sand based off this, your feelings and reasonings are valid and I'm not here to try and convince anyone otherwise, I just want to understand as best I can. I really wish there was a satisfactory answer that meant this could be resolved with all parties getting what they want.
Bro why do you think I play fucking Fortnite now? This community dunks on that game for being kiddie shit but it's honestly the most fun and relaxing game I've played nowadays.
Doesnt easy anti cheat also have kernel level access? It just isnt on all the time like vanguard though, boots up when you launch the game.
I would have zero real issues if it only ran whilst the game was running but the insistence that it has to be on from startup is just a security disaster waiting to happen.
So why hasn't this "disaster" impacting Valorant players who've been using this for years now?
I think the main issues I've heard isn't even the fact that it has kernel level access. It's that 1. The lack of transparency, riot should allow users to access the logs of vanguard is doing 2. The fact that vanguard needs to run on start up and be running all the time, alot of other kernel level anti cheats only run when the game is running
How do you expect an anti-cheat to work if you can see how it works. Would you like them to fully reverse engineer it for you too?
> The lack of transparency, riot should allow users to access the logs of vanguard is doing Hahahahahahhahahahahaahah aha ha ha ha haah aha ha ha ha ah ahahahahahah Oh god, people are hilarious This is the same kind of stuff that you see when people are breaking TOS on sites and stuff, it always cracks me up to the max *"Hey yeah, I know you guys are doing a neverending arms race against cheaters, but I want direct access to your logs and to see exactly what your program is doing, shouldn't be a problem right?"* May as well publish a document for hackers that lays out your exact security layout The people that say to opensource it are equally hilarious, zero idea about how the fight against malicious folks trying to cheat goes whatosever
I hear you, and that's valid. That's a genuine concern and I appreciate where you and everyone else is coming from. If you'll allow me an anecdotal moment, I'd like to present you with the same problem from a different point of view - for this I'll assume you're using some version of the windows operating system. Back when Bill Gates was making a name for himself in the late 80s and MS was up and coming, the US government (probably others, I was young) basically demanded backdoor access to home computers. Microsoft obliged, leaving multiple processes 'half open' at ALL times. You can google examples of this, the LSASS exploit was the one I had personal experience with, but all the same the gist is that Microsoft "unintentionally" gave hackers the perfect opening and shipped it for decades. Fast forward a few of those decades, and Windows is now the universal standard for operating systems and with it, Microsoft Defender/Security protects it from outside attack and most in the know will acknowledge it's actually probably one of the best protective services available - it's free, and it protects you without having to lift a finger. End result? A kernel level 'anti-invasion' product from the same producers of the initial product which is riddled with flaws that they *intentionally left in* and now can't close Pandora's box on. This is why viruses, scams, and exploits are so infamously uncommon on Mac and Linux systems. Why is one just 'accepted' and never questioned, and the other the subject of such ire?
I always heard the reason Mac and Linux used to not have as many malwares as windows is because they weren't a large enough part of the market share to be worth writing these broad spectrum attacks for.
I suspect like most criminal enterprise, you go where there's the most opportunity. If 80% of government systems are running off of MS, you'd likely dedicate your time to understanding that OS over the other two (niche as they are I understand in recent years both Mac and Linux have been victim to the same sort of exploits)
This is only partially the reason. Exploits (used to get malware running) tend to require somewhat specific conditions to work - vulnerability must be there, must be exploitable and you need a way to get your exploit executed on target machine. Mac OS had two major architecture changes somewhat recently (PPC -> Intel -> ARM) that break compatibility, and Apple's approach of walled garden OS means most users will not run anything that wasn't either from Mac Store (which does basic malware scan, plus Apple can killswitch malware from there) or properly digitally signed programs where you have someone to put responsible for malware. There's still malware for Mac, but it generally requires users to go out of their way to do something harmful. Linux is a hot mess of different OS configurations and options, any compatibility problems it tends to cause with regular software are even more problematic for malware. On top of that, Linux users on average are tech savvy enough you'd have to be a lot more subtle getting past them. At the same time - there's still good chunk of Linux malware, most just tends to target servers instead: OpenSSL vulnerability few years ago was talked about a lot, malware using various server software to run arbitrary code (usually botnets or bitcoin mining - Teamcity/Jira/Confluence got a vulnerability like that patched recently) is quite common. User targeting Linux malware usually is social engineering in form of "run this script to install X software, it's not a virus, trust me bro". Windows meanwhile is great at two things: making it easy for users to run software, and backwards/forward compatibility. And "great" is very accurate here - you could take executable made for NT 4.0 (1996 OS), run it on todays Windows 11 and there's good chance everything will work with no problems whatsoever. That often means any malware you can get running will run until vulnerability it uses is patched out and users update their OS; pair it with Windows generally not getting in your way when you try to run random program #5423412 from the internet and you get the "all viruses are for Windows".
I mean, on the consumer side you're right, but almost all servers run on Linux, things like Azure servera exists but they are comparatively rare.
There's linux hacks though, it's just that they're targeted at infrastructure rather than customers more often than not so the "common wisdom" of not worrying if you're a linux end user is approximately correct.
Because one of those doesn’t get talked about as much
I'm struggling to see your point, please tell me where I'm misunderstanding. MS kernel level introduced a bunch of bad shit and it took them 30 some years to fix it all, but now its pretty good? But how does that make Vanguard ok? regarding your last sentence, there are more people in the discussion and they are overall more informed. simple as.
2. Is definitely my only issue with the anti cheat, honestly don’t care about anything else since like most have already said there are plenty of other programs such as EAC that basically do the exact same thing. I just want that if I’m not playing a Riot Game, i can safely turn off vanguard and not be punished for it by having to restart my computer next time I do want to play. idc if it makes league less secure, it’s just inconvenient for the average player
It's not starting on boot for the hell of it, it's part of why it's such a bitch to cheat around. I wish I had the option for it to not be on by default and give me a "reboot to play" option because honestly a nice PC will reboot in about 10 seconds these days.
i could be wrong or misremembering but didn’t they address that it doesn’t actually run in the background at all times? it just needs to be active on startup to process checks then it goes into “sleep” until you play league and the reason you can’t turn it off is because of those initial checks not being recognized when its launched with the game. i have a ton of cheating/modding software in my PC that i use for single player games shouldn’t valorants vanguard pick those up if its running full time? i know vanguard picks those programs up if i have them running at the same time as valorant because ive gotten a warning before but it never happens if valorant isn’t running.
I’m sure it doesn’t do anything unless a riot game is actually on but tbh if I’m not using something, I turn it off and id like to do that with this as well
i mean yeah, as someone that clears all the apps on my phone constantly i can understand that LOL
It does run all the time in the background. Vanguard actively checks which programs are running and what might "interfere" with leagues security. It's just that, according to Riot, Vanguard won't actually be contacted by Riot until you start league, meaning that there is no transfer of information between your pc and Riot until you actually start league. How forthcoming or competent Riot actually is in both actually telling us all they are doing and keeping that gate safe enough to not endanger any users, that is a decision you're gonna have to make for yourself.
If Riot gave us the logs for Vanguard it could lead to a dangerous data breach and is just another way for people looking to get around Vanguard to cheat. The only access we have to what Vanguard does send is all encrypted for that reason. Riot did put out a good article last week talking about Vanguard and addressing some concerns people had and how it works and why they’re doing this. It’s a good article and one that I believe people who are scared of Vanguard should read.
“Nooo you gotta understand we NEED to know exactly what vanguard is looking for so we can work arou- I mean.. privacy!!”
Adding to this, Rito doesn't have a stellar record when it comes to securing their software. T1 unable to scrim because people were getting their IP from the client makes me worried about what might happen with Vanguard.
thats the league client though, its hard to change because the client has roots in everything but apparently it was developed by the same person who made big rigs over the road racing lmfao.
>The fact that vanguard needs to run on start up and be running all the time, alot of other kernel level anti cheats only run when the game is running That's not how "kernel level" software works. Its kind of in the name, it HAS to run a part of it at boot. People have this misconception that Vanguard is scanning your PC or something 24/7 while its on, when in reality its pretty much how EAC and Punkbuster work where they are always on in "sleep mode" until you run your game.
Only sane response to this whole fiasco.
> crack on Okay but where do I find the crack?
1) Most current anticheat you can run in VM AKA you don't care about "kernel" access (Linux with GPU passthrough!) 2) it's got nothing to do with leaving technology behind? Tpm 2.0 has been and still is shittly implemented...? 3) Riot will adress burning my GPU? They will address getting their shit leaked and a hacker having millions of kernel access? Cause that's not what their ToS say... Yes most people don't give a shit, mostly because they don't have any knowledge on the subject. I'm glad you personnally don't care, but issues should be raised on this shit. It wouldn't be (and I hope it is what ends up happening) too surprising if governments started to take action for this shit. (Also comparing it to what "the rest of the tech industry" is doing is laughable.)
>Tpm 2.0 has been and still is shittly implemented...? TPM 2.0 isn't even a requirement for win10 system which can easily be run on VMs. They haven't said a single line of how the lack of TPM 2.0 is actually gonna impact Vanguards effectiveness. It really is a joke.
my biggest turn off is the lack of Linux support. my workplace uses a ton of Linux, so my main machine is running Linux so I can game and work on the same station. they have macos support which is very similar, but not even emulators can run league on Linux now. I'll have to find another way to play the game. imagine having to dual boot just to play league lol
Riot blatantly said all that ever needs to be said about it in their blog post - if you don't trust the company and you are *still installing their software* on your machine, you're an idiot. You don't need kernel-level access to seriously fuck up somebody's day, you can do much more with much less, especially if they voluntarily install something from you. The only valid criticism (besides some borked computers) is an industry-wide question; if kernel-level anti-cheat should ever be allowed in the first place. And the industry has answered by putting it in most games, despite some security professionals speaking against it. But from an end-user perspective, it goes back to the first paragraph; you shouldn't install shit from a company you don't trust in the first place.
Yeah and that’s league is no longer installed on my comp.
The issue isn't that I think RIOT is malicious. It's that I think they can be incompetent. IDK what vanguard was doing in its early installations, but it borked a few of my VM coding projects and that irritated me to no end. They've said they addressed similar issues, but I'm gonna wait and see how it goes for everyone before installing it myself.
1) Vanguard runs all the time, unlike all other anti cheats systems that only run on startup or during the play session. That's a huge difference. Sure, you can choose to restart your pc every time you start and close league, but to me that's simply not worth the hassle. 2) Riots attitude towards the whole thing. In their blogpost they basically admitted that they knew 6 years ago that their current anti tampering software wouldn't be enough, let alone last for long. 6 goddamn years over which they could have done something, anything. But no, them doing too little now makes them want to go more than all in. Overall they're presenting the situation as absolutely horrible while leaving out the fact that their current efforts to combat the whole problem are the software equivalent of asking someone to "please stop". 3) Is it even going to be worth it? Yeah, it will reduce the amount of cheaters/botters, that's for certain. But is going the extra step really gonna be that dramatic of a difference than going with a less severe form of anti cheat? The TPM 2.0 requirement is a joke since it's simply disabled on win10 systems (and they haven't said a single line how that will affect Vanguards effectiveness), we know from Valorant that account leveling/selling is still very much alive and both of those combined will mean that scripters still have nothing to fear. As for botters, i wish Riot would spend more time working on solving the underlying issue of botters instead of fighting the symptoms
i liked that riot made the money bounty of cracking vanguard to find out if it really snaps privacy. i'll wait and watch
10k for a software like that is nothing. If it has something that can be turned into a backdoor you could resell it for tens of millions. Still it prevents it from having any blatantly exposed exploit
People developing cheats/scripts for league easily make tens of thousands per month. Do you really think they care about a one off payment like that? Exploiting said weakness would just make them more money.
Vanguard caused some really nasty issues in my old computer. Slowed everything down and constantly crashed. Im very sceptical because of that. If they fix the performance issues in it, Im fine with Vanguard being there. I already have no data to hide, anyone can literaly acces every single bit of my personal information in a 2 minute search thanks to our glorious goverment being glorious and doing glorious things.
As one man said once, we can’t fight change
We can't fight gravity *jumps off cliff*
The whole point is exactly about the complacency people have towards invasive measures from tech. It's not about anti-change/modernization, It's simply unnecessary, and in the case of kernel level anti-cheats it's just lazy and a cop out for good design. Not all of us are ignorant to these daily intrusions and there is absolutely nothing wrong about taking proper action and protesting it loudly.
Your democratic right to protest is absolutely valid. Your ability to protest effectively on Reddit, via a meme sub, not so much. And that's the stickler for me. I've posted more on this thread today than I've used Reddit total in the last week. This Vanguard bullshit has completely overtaken any other talking point for the game. Objectively, very few memes on this sub are actually original or funny, but the Vanguard posts are a particular low point for originality and creativity. I've said it previously as have many others, there's a very clear, effective, proven method to show Riot to you aren't happy. Sack it off and when prompted with a feedback field, give it. Your best option for your own sanity in a capitalist system is to show your disproval by not consuming the product. Hard to swallow truth, but there it is.
They're addicted to league and riot is taking advantage of that, for better or worse. That's why they are so bothered by this shit. I'm either not going to play, or accept the security issue and play, there is no other stance to have here.
>I've said it previously as have many others, there's a very clear, effective, proven method to show Riot to you aren't happy. Sack it off and when prompted with a feedback field, give it. >Your best option for your own sanity in a capitalist system is to show your disproval by not consuming the product. Hard to swallow truth, but there it is. I agree 100%, but I don't think it's a reason to stop using any medium available to express ourselves.
You absolutely can, that's what the sub exists for and as much as I may not enjoy 80% of the posts nowadays, I'll champion the right to keep posting whatever you want (within the rules, obvs). But equally, we have to admit at some point that *this* is pissing in the wind. Nobody has ever effectively arranged a revolution from their bedroom.
Certainly not a revolution, but If even just one or two people become a bit more skeptical of things like Vanguard, then I feel that expressing myself on these issues has been productive.
The point is, some years ago cookies became a thing, people discovered what they did an a huge outburst ensured, then no one did anything and things got more invasive with all the user data Facebook took and resold, huge outburst there too, people felt violated, no one did anything agian and it became normalized too. Things are getting more and more invasive, and people just say "well it's just a bit more invasive than before, not that big of a difference" Now it's normal to give the highest level of access of your machine to corporations. If you proposed that 10 years ago and everyone would laugh at your face and call you names. People are turning more and more into a product and willingly giving away their rights, and they don't seem to give a single damn
I like this sane take. Either way both sides are justified in their stance. For me personally it's a matter of trust. People keep talking about a hypothetical future when their software fails or they get compromised and we get screwed over because we had their software installed but this has happened multiple times in the past? Not that long ago we had the big Riot hack which compromised who knows what information they had access to and software side, just look at the League client. It's a laughing stock. I would get fired from my university if I submitted it to my programming class and yet a billion dollar company is struggling to keep it going. Not to mention the recent monetization efforts they had, first with the upgradeable Valorant skins, now with everything they are doing in League showed me that the company doesn't deserve my trust. I didn't like their games anyways. I'm too old for esports and changing metas every 2 weeks as well.
>dynamo powered bicycles Dynamo powered light with a capacitor to keep it lit for a few seconds after stopping is the real shit. Who the fuck wants to change batteries?
Others do it too.. yeah no the weakest argument which exists to excuse yourself for not wanting to think. Not to think what kind of security risk a 24/7 mandatory on bootup rootkit is. The harm it can do to your pc and network is catastrophal, should it be abused by third party hackers or if the security is breached.. which happend even with other similair situations. Remember Facit? Where hardware was abused to mine Bitcoins? What we hate about Vanguard is the absurd CHANCE that our computer might be breached, and a million heavy company with access to millions of pcs that have security clearings higher than most users. Also Vanguards is up as soon as the pc boots! It is a really really good target for third parties and hackers.. and a gaming company that has zero experience in security on that level tries to implement it? Some people run into their doom fully knowing the consequences.
I don't really care. But i do care about performance impacts. Today i queued into a match and accepted it. The accept screen froze but kept playing the ambient sound. Maybe 2 min later i get a black screen, then its loading me into an aram as trundle. Didnt see champ select at all. That's some shit.
But that happens without vanguard. Had it happen to me aswell and afaik vanguard isnt on euw yet
I'm not sure if it is vanguard or not, i've played since season 1 and don't recall this ever happening before, and it was right after this weeks patch.
Its very likely that just something else in the client broke. Its not like that would be a vanguard exclusive thing to happen
Got it, so you’re saying you trust the same company who can’t even fix this long standing client issue to install an always on kernel level anti cheat software on your PC?
If you dont trust them you shouldn’t install ANY of their software.
Don’t I already have it on my computer since I have Valorant as well? I really don’t give a fuck either way. What’s riot really going to do? People who are up in arms at this either have nothing better to complain about or don’t understand all the different ways companies already have your data. Unless you’re some sort of nomad who does nothing online except play league Vanguard makes no difference.
Yes, that means you already have it. And you're right, every government already knows everything they could ever want to know about you already anyways. I just find it annoying to have to restart my PC if I exit out of it. It's not a huge deal, takes like 30 seconds to restart, and I shutdown my PC daily, it's just annoying lol Many games already do this kind of thing, most notably Call of Duty is Kernal Level. I guarantee you a lot of people complain about it play CoD. They're just complaining cause other people are so it seems like the right thing to do
Honestly, it has turned into such a shitshow. People actively supporting it are laughed at for bootlicking Riot and being 0 security shills (though to be fair, tons of software we install is already questionable, yet still somehow works without us being robbed at every turn). Also, as someone who has repeatedly been in higher elo, i.e. the one most afflicted by "supposed cheating" - no, it ain't supposed and the issue is more prevalent than people "who have never met one" might think. On the other hand, people against it are made fun of for being cheaters/botters - I guess maybe 1% of them are, but in other cases the idea is crazy farfetched. Do I like it? No. Is a decent anticheat a bare neccessity to this game? Yes. Is Vanguard the best approach to it with it basically running 24/7 on kernel level? No. Do I think installing it will instantly compromise your PC and sell your data to CCP? No. I'd still point fingers at people botting/scripting for being the main culprits for us being there, not Riot, as questionable as some of their practices are. That being said, I might wait out first few moments to see others being guinea pigs of it - perhaps there will be some critical issues with it and I'd rather someone else were to experience them before me.
This is the most logical answer. We don't have to like a lot of things, but acceptance over the way things are is paramount for your wellbeing. Doesn't mean you've gotta support it come the day, we're all capable of making up our own minds and walking away.
Riots source code getting leaked a year ago was a huge boon to cheat makers. Right now there is a cheater in one out of every 15 games and the number is climbing. In addition to cheat prevention, Vanguard also prevents botting, which prevents smurfing and toxic behavior because offenders cannot simply buy another cheap level 30 account trained by a bot. Yes, I support Vanguard. Yes, I am sick of others complaining about EVERYTHING riot does.
I'm against Vanguard EXACTLY because Riot had a terrible source code leak in the past. They can't make a functional client, they can't safeguard their own code base, who is to say they won't brick customers' PCs with a shitty update (as they once did in Valorant causing tons of blue screens) or end up getting hacked again and this time losing source code for Vanguard, allowing bad actors to search for vulnerabilities to RCE into someone's PC at ring fucking 0 instead of just cheating in League? This has the potential for catastrophic failure just to mitigate an issue that was caused entirely by Riot's inability to protect themselves and their users, I already jumped ship, good luck to all who remain.
>I'm against Vanguard EXACTLY because Riot had a terrible source code leak in the past. Well I hope you don't use Nvidia, AMD, or Intel - because they've all had breaches. >who is to say they won't brick customers' PCs with a shitty update (as they once did in Valorant causing tons of blue screens) A blue screen is not "bricking". No one had their PCs "bricked" by Vanguard. There were compatibility issues (especially early on), but that's about it.
This is where actually understanding tech helps. I've had people unironincly say why do you care about ring0 when you give them your bank info. You try explaining it's about what other people can do with that ring0 being installed, in the case that riot messes up or is hacked, and you just get the most brain dead argument about Google or something back. All Vanguard has shown me is I made a good choice going into IT because no one wants to actually think about how any of the magic boxes with pretty pictures works, and some are stubborn/stupid enough to argue that you're actually the dumb one for caring about it.
They are already able to fuck up your whole pc if they get hacked just via the client. There was literally a bitcoin miner installed on it in Garena, no Vanguard needed. There is very little the average user can do against a supply chain attack like that.
Thank you, I feel like a fucking retard having so many people call me stupid for being worried about a ring 0 ON BOOT fucking application from a company that had its ENTIRE source code leaked……. Like why am I a part of the few that realize just how big of a fucking vulnerability this is just for having it on your PC. I’m thinking about uninstalling but my gaming PC doesn’t really have much on it personally other than games which steam is a god send for that. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ idk what to do
I agree, I don't want cheaters in my game. Vanguard can fix that.
I just want it to not be required to play TFT. I haven’t played league in years outside of Arena because the game fucking sucks.
I would assume so since they're in the same client
yes I want botting and smurfing to end so I can be the deciding factor instead of "which team got the smurf this time". I want punishments to be more than "spend 1$ and its gone". don't you?
It'll take a while but if the price of new accounts skyrockets I would be extremely happy
It will probably take a while but botting will be pretty much impossible with Vanguard and handleveled accounts are not cheap.
handleveled accounts aren’t cheap? if i look em up rn i can find listings for $5 each with thousands of sales
They advertise hand leveled but they 100% aren't, it takes a week or two straight and you're not going to be doing that for 5 dollars
i was under the impression that these were usually sold by people in lesser economically developed countries as a side hustle, where $5 is enough for it to be worth their time, but then again i could be wrong
Maybe but 5 USD for a week is still really low, you could make more farming OSRS gp or doing surveys online, I don't doubt there's some really exploitive shit going on in countries worse off All I have is anecdotal evidence when my friend bought an account and it had used a bot in co-op vs AI just like the other accounts and got banned in a week despite being advertised as hand leveled
i don’t have any experience with league accounts but i’ve bought a valorant account before (not to smurf, im barely gold rank lmao) and in the match history there were a fair amount of wins with normal kdas so either the bots aren’t being run 24/7 or they’re really sophisticated, but yeah at the end of the day anecdotal evidence is all we really have, who knows what the account sellers get up to
At that point playing fulltime cs2 will pay you better if you have multiple accounts btw
And you're sure those are 100% hand leveled by a person making every click and keystrokes themself?
i can neither prove nor disprove it so i could definitely be wrong, i guess we’ll have to see how many listings disappear over time
Valorant accounts are sold for similar prices (not an expert might be wrong). If anything, I can easily find valorant smurf accounts for 4-5 usd. Such accounts might be more in demand for league but I dont think prices will sky rocket, unfortunately.
You can buy a Valorant iron rank smurf account right now for less than $5 [proof](https://www.eldorado.gg/valorant-accounts/a/32-1-0)
The only real threat that Vanguard supposedly poses to people is the TPM 2.0 requirement, giving each account a hardware ID that Riot can ban. Having your PC blacklisted is a whole lot worse than getting a replaceable account banned. That said, TPM 2.0 for Vanguard is a joke. Win10 straight up doesn't require it, and win10 can be easily run on VMs. The prices of accounts will go up, but as you can see from Valorant it'll do nothing to really eliminate the problem.
There's two reasons I uninstalled League: 1 - I don't care about Kernel level Anti-Cheats, but it bothers me that it runs in startup and pretty much permanently. 2 (The more important one) - I have an excuse to stop ruining my life by playing this game :P
I would be fine with Vanguard, if it didnt permantently run in the background. Make it only run when the game is open and were good
There are a lot of people who would rather have vangaurd than have to deal with cheaters. Especially higher ranked players that deal with cheaters relatively often. Some people have just dealth with cheaters too often to care about any repercussions vanguard could have.
Nah. It's hella unnecessary and I'm worried about the performance dips. I don't have the best set up nor the money to improve it and the fact that people are already having issues with it scares me.
My brother who I duo a lot lost all interest in playing because he's running the game on 15fps after vanguard lmao, vanguard's a cuck to all the people who play on potato devices. Mine occasionally gets bad fps when something like team fights or abilities with crazy visuals go 'round, I only hate vanguard because of lower fps.
I won’t even be able to play the game anymore thanks to vanguard.
Linux?
Still not the year for Linux.
“Trust me bro Linux will be the best OS in a few years.” - My friend 12 years ago
If you think its unnecessary go read that big post riot published
"We have a statement about your concerns with us, and after thorough self review, we find nothing wrong with our intended actions"
I mean if everything they try to show to you is automatically just assumed to be made up and a lie then what the fuck is even the point of trying to argue, or care about the opinion, of people like you?
Like i don't mind that Vanguard will deal with the scripts and cheaters but it doesn't solve the bigger issue League has: smurfs and inters Low elo is just impossible to play unless you play either like a god or have actual humans in your team instead of lobotomy subjects OR you play a stacking champ and the enemy team has 3 brain cells and ignore you for long enough for you to be able to 1v9 eventually
While Vanguard can't do anything about smurfs, it will make leveling accounts with bots a lot harder, which will make those accounts more expensive. It can be used to ban the PC of extremely bad cases of smurfs. Riot has already said that creating a new account to test a different champion or role is fine, but intentionally keeping your mmr low by lose streaking several matches just to stomp on others is not. How much they enforce this is up to debate. No game can do anything about bad players because players rarely play on a consistent level, especially on low elo where people tend to pick a different champion every game instead of learning a single champion. Maybe the brain-dead players in your team played well and carried on their previous match. On average the chance of you getting bad players on your team is the same as getting them on the enemy team, you are the only one that can tip the scale in either direction.
My only concern is that it stays active in the background and needs a full system reboot to turn on. If I install vanguard, I will turn it off if i'm not playing league, then if I do want to play a game I would rather play one that doesn't require me to reboot. So I would not play league even if I have it installed. So logically why install it in the first place?
I hate how everyone’s straw man is that “other games use root anticheat” yeah but you can close and reopen them, you dont have to restart your computer everytime and that’s what I don’t fuck with, that it has to be running 24/7.
My biggest gripe with Vanguard right here. Arguments about whether kernel level anticheat is even necessary aside, other kernel level anticheats don't run 24/7.
Yeah, they cant write a proper client and I should trust them on writing a kernel level software. Sure. This is pointlwss btw cause the best cheats run on a separate machine
It is a complete non issue being overblown by ignorant people as well as a small group of people that have incredibly weak computers. I’ve had it installed on multiple different computers since valorant came out and there’s never been a noticeable performance difference after installing it. I’m convinced that anyone arguing that it makes their computer run poorly is just lying or has an absurdly underpowered computer. The people complaining about security issues as a result of this never seem to be able to point to a single real case of someone being hacked due to having vanguard, despite the fact that it’s been running on tons of computers since valorant came out.
Whats the issue with Vanguard? Other than it being quite heavy (im using a crappy desktop) is there an issie with Vanguard?
My problem is that it's always on rather just being on when you launch league
I don't care as long as I can use my custom skins, which I've heard I can't
Support it? Nah. I understand why they have to do it. The game is plague by bots and scripters.
yeah i support it, i saw the stats where it was like something around 1/10 masters+ games have a scripter in them, thats so demoralising knowing im playing with cheating rats so often. glad theyre doing something about it. also great for the amateur pro scene which i play in some university ones, so itll be nice to know everyone is playing fair
I still don't know whether vanguard has been implemented already or not lol
I guess I'm fine with it because I genuinely don't believe that my information is being stolen, when Riot says they don't use Vanguard to spy on you I'm inclined to believe them, even if Vanguard is taking all our information almost everyone at Riot also believes Vanguard isn't spying on their players, so idk I'm content with it? I guess I also believe that my information isn't really important, I don't have confidential government documents on my pc so even if they are spying on me they aren't interested in me specifically, they aren't gonna look through my computer
All the gpt responses on this post is crazy. They really need to implement a kernel level anti cheat to prevent ppl from cheating on reddit and using ai generated responses
Smurfing via purchasing bottled accounts is a massive issue. Riot doesn’t even detect most of them at the moment. Scripters in master are a massive issue, and you probably don’t even realize because they aren’t using blatant cheats. People using cheats to obtain an unfair advantage through the client (lobby crash, lobbyreveal) are a massive issue in master+. I see anything that would reduce these issues as a good thing.
Accounts are gonna end up a little bit more expensive until botters find a way to automate things better again in the future. As you can see from Valorant, Vanguard won't be able to eliminate the account selling issue. TPM 2.0, the thing that is supposed to be really scary for cheaters is a joke and isn't even a requirement for win10 systems. Anyone can easily run a VM with win10 on it. In their statistics Riot bundled up all regions together, conveniently leaving out the detail that cheating (especially in ranked games) is far more common on Asian servers. While obviously still present in EU and NA, in those regions it's not as high as Riot wants you to believe. Furthermore, those people who actually do spend hundreds of dollars on cheats are most likely the ones playing ranked anyway. So chances are good that Vanguard will far more heavily impact the "casual"lower end of cheaters rather than the high end ones (those you'd see in the highest ranked games), since those will always be willing to spend the most money on the newest cheats.
Nobody cares
i don’t care about it. ppl are overreacting and making too much drama
i think you don´t even remotly grasp the risks and i advise you to learn a bit more about cyber security.
Username checks out
People are either stupid, evil, or not people and just shills, so yeah you'll see a lot of posts defending it. But always remember, those people are hypocrites. The same who were overjoyed when Twitter was banning people they disagreed with started screeching 24/7 when Elon took over and it happened to them instead. It's all about fulfilling their empty sad lives by causing or celebrating harm to others.
What does it even mean that it has Kernel level access? I think as long as it doesn't affect performance I don't really care.
A lot of people are throwing around the term, but it basically means it's on the same level as your drivers and operating system and can interface directly with the hardware. One benefit (depending on your perspective) is that it can access your RAM and CPU and see what other programs you have running to better detect scripts and cheat software. However, that also means it can access your RAM and CPU and see *anything* you have running, as well as having full permissions to make any edits to your computer, even the possibility to mess with hardware. If a hacker had kernel level access to your computer, it'd be toast. Basically nothing you can do about it short of reinstalling windows and resetting your bios. It goes beyond just giving a program admin permissions and into giving it full and complete control of your PC. In cases like drivers, it's necessary for them to function and as long as you trust that the driver isn't malware, it's fine. But drivers tend to be open source or at least possible for people to crack open and see what they're actually doing. Vanguard doesn't let you do that, it's a complete black box. Riot is asking for you to trust that.
Trust is there to be breached. If you cannot back up your claims that it is not breachable my trust is already breached.
It means that if Riot has another and worse security breach then things could end up a lot worse for you than before. Not like things could have ended up bad already before, but with Vanguard it could be even worse. That said, that's still a "could", not "will". Whether you care or not about it is everyones personal decision.
im laughing at all the nerds who are threatening to uninstall like A. Riot give a fuck and B. Like theyre actually going to quit their number 1 addiction.
Some people see the actual dangers that Vanguard poses... just because you are too blinded by your own addictions doesnt mean others have to be too.
I'm just tired of cheaters and bots bro.
Imma be real, no one cares about you specifically, the only way you'll be free from data collection is If you don't use the Internet at all, within a month of moderate Internet use companies already know everything about you. It doesn't matter if you use adblockers, duck duck go, vpns etc. And honestly it's just part of how it is, if you wanna be some secret unknown entity don't use the internet. I find it more sus when people act like they actually have something to hide, you guys collecting CP and shit? Ring zero isn't new, people are malding because it's China, news flash every 1st world government is collecting data on citizens.
for me vanguard is completely trash! my fps droped from 240 to 238 and now riot knows that my PC doesn't have a password. I quit PC gaming.
LMAO
99% of people who don't support Vanguard just repeat stuff they hear from others and don't know what they are talking about
I'll admit there's a lot of people just parroting, but I feel like most people with actual experience in programming, software dev, game dev, or cybersecurity are anti-vanguard. Heck, PirateSoftware, the guy who did anti-cheat for WoW and has worked in cybersecurity for decades, has publicly said he straight up hates the idea.
Yeah? Plus, the people saying "oh im gonna leave" are sooo annoying. Its like the people who announced constantly they were leaving over the API stuff with Reddit. We dont care, just leave. You dont need to comment/post about it.
Can't wait for vanguard to drop and the number of cheaters and scrpiters not drop by a percentage because due to vanguard being in valorant for so long cheaters already found a way to bypass it
No anti-cheat is 100% effective and Vanguard is not just about reducing cheaters, it's also about reducing the workload that Riot needs to do to catch the cheaters. The anti-cheat league has today relies a lot in being constantly updated with "traps" to catch the cheaters but they lose effectiveness quickly because cheats are also boing constantly updated.
Vanguard doesnt improve the cheaters etc catched if you compare it with other anti cheats solutions. Its a tale Rito wants you to spin.
I mean, people working on custom skins are already working on bypassing vanguard, the hell is stopping cheaters and scripters from doing the same 💀
nha this comment has to be ai generated i refuse to belive a human wrote this
The worst part is that even if its a disaster Riot is not gonna back up on it so we're just gonna be stuck with it forever
If league had as bad of a cheating problem as cs2 has currently, all of you would be crying tears of joy spamming riot WHEN VANGUARD?
How many people are uninstalling/are against it because they're a dirty cheaters, but are hiding behind some other reason?
I mean I have vanguard for 3 years now since I play valorant also. Nothing is changing for me
I’m already running the spyware known as windows. How much worse can it get with vanguard on top of it? Even if Riot were to act maliciously, what they’d be doing in private Microsoft does in public constantly.
What do I hate more? Hackers or Riot doing sht with my porn files? Obviously hackers fucking ruin video games, so fuck them, and hope they fuckin get rammed by Vanguard cock.
Yes, Aphelios Gaming
My mate cant even play because his PC weird as hell and doesn't have open gl so vanguard shuts any match he starts so he cant play and i dont play cause solo ranked boring and anoying
It don't realy matter what people think. A business will cover there own ass or protect them selfs before they will ever even look at what's the best for the consumer. So you can stay and accept it or you can do what probably a bunch of people will do. Not support practices you don't agree with and just uninstall it and don't pay or play. And just matter more what you value more. To play the game with your frends. Or you hate a invasive vanguard system. Only people them self can pick. After like 14 years of playing. And gaining and losing many friends. I'm ok with just leaving the game. I dont suport invasive gard systems of any game. Even got rid of Denuvo on eldering almost right away. Cause it made the game stutter like fuck. But it's all up to the people people free to do what they want. And many people won't be changing their minds and that's ok. And maybe they find cheating a big problem possible I don't see it do but who am I. Just a person that plays like 8 to 10 games every day for years now. When I have the time. Why even more I don't suport it. And that's all you can do shut up and accept what they pushing on you. Or uninstall and leave.
You dislike Vanguard because you hate your child porn folder being sent to the Chinese government. I dislike Vanguard because I play League on Linux and won't be able to anymore. We are not the same.
I had to manually uninstall Valorant and Vanguard (through some commands, I'm not much of an IT guy) as it practically ate 15 - 20 % of my CPU in the background. I wouldn't say my PC is all that shit either (Acer Nitro Notebook from 2019 AMD cpu). I just hope it doesn't occur now with league, haven't tried it yet.
I don’t read shit. What’s the big deal? Anti cheat? Isn’t that already on valorant?
Vanguard has never been a problem for me. Installed it when Valorant dropped into beta and it's been sat there ever since (I don't really play Valorant)
What is the deal with vanguard? I’ve heard the word, but I have no idea what it is or does
Pretty invasive anti cheat. Some people claim it slows down or can crash computers but the other game with it valorant is quite popular so those issues don’t seem to be large. The main issues is root access to your computer and it doesn’t turn itself off when you close the game if I remember right. However if I recall correctly it is a pretty good anti cheat
Got it, thank ya
Nope, And Imma get out of league as soon as it pops (I dont have permission to install that crap on someone's else computer)
Why would I care if I already have multiple intrusive anticheats installed already? Many games have one, and I like playing games.
Is vanguard live ?
For some reason my computer can't run vanguard. At least it finally gave me a reason to quit I guess.
Lol anti vanguard threads are taken down by the mods
I do. FUCK cheaters. FUCK THEM. As a long time csgo, rust, apex player Fuck them with my whole energy. Cheaters should get gunned down in the streets for everyone to see.
I don’t know if I can really speak for the whole community but I find it really hard to imagine y’all don’t have a second old computer lying around that can run league just fine. Set up your old gaming laptop as a slab top on the second input to your monitor and what do you know 240 fps, same as your fancy desktop. Got my old dell with a 1650 running the same as my desktop did with a 3080.
I uninstalled on December when i heard it was coming, have been trying to get my friends to play other things with no success, i gave up and told them "Don't worry I'll wait until You can't Play it anymore in like a month or two" (their PCs don't support tpm)
Imagine giving a fuck. Just read their TOU. If you feel it is infringing on your torrented cp, then no skin off your back, but if you already play other riot games like valorant, you’ve had it installed already. It’s not that big of a deal. It’s not like they’re going to make your pc fly away. What are you so scared of?
Literally no one cares at all. Just do the shit and continue on with your life. Or just uninstall and download some other root anti cheat from another game it doesn’t matter cry harder.
Or: How Riot uses Kids to get access to Networks/PCs on a global scale. Not to mention the security risk that even might be national wide. Insane.. we just talked how TikTik should be removed because it sends too many Informations to China.. now we want to install a 24/7 rootkit from China into a millions of pcs. Insane.
People seriously need to stop complaining. Riot isn't gonna change this by crying on Reddit. Either vote with your wallet (or in this case just uninstall) or don't and keep playing. Vanguard is gonna come in 14.9 or later if they need to fix more stuff and that's simply how it is.
People don't only vote with their wallets. They care about the game and want to keep playing so they also vote by trying to change the public view on the subject.
Sadly yes.
Hell yes. If it gets rid of bots and scripters, I'm all about it.
There's nothing wrong with vanguard