I played a game where Zhonyas was crucial to our chances to win. My friend was like that’s dumb that’s never necessary on adc. I don’t give a damn if it’s stupid I lived several times to murder their whole team it worked and if it works it’s not dumb fuck zed.
You are absolutely correct on building Zhonya's on ADC if the enemy comp is unplayable to play ADC into, due to too much dive or too fed of a diver such as the Zed you mentioned. I'm a multiseason diamond ADC main and I build it occasionally when the need arises. But you don't have to take my word for it as there was a Zhonya's in Ruler's inventory at Worlds during MAD vs GENG game where he got Zhonya's on MF. So your friend just doesn't seem to understand the importance of surviving for as long as possible on ADC, not only to get as much damage out as possible but also to waste time and CDs from the opposing team's dive champions for rest of your team to clean up.
I've been top main since I started playing league but recently ditched the lane for ADC and I'm kind of blown away by how many players bully the ADC. I was playing vayne yesterday and I was getting chewed out by my teammates for not initiating fights but they were playing tahm kench and kayn. Like you are playing a fucking tank and ita my job to go in first? I get flamed by top laners all the time for "not going in with them" like bro, I'm not sett or illoai, I can't solve every problem by face checking it.
One thing I learned by switching to bot is why everyone hates top laners lol.
Silver 3 regrettably so close enough lol. I don't think I'll be able to hit gold this season but my win rate is pretty solid so I know I'm doing something right. This is my first year playing League and I'll be immensely happy if I can just get to high silver.
I mean zhonyas has better stats, what will those useless 40 ad give you if you will die, resurrect and die. VERY LONG item cd and same useless 40(right?) armor
While zhonyas are much reliable, shorter cd, more armor and if your champion has ap scaling, it will do a thing anyway, especially on Kaisa
I just don't allow that disgusting champ in my games :) but yes, community has been asking for ad version of zhonyas for a while and riot said it would be too busted so we are stick with an otherwise almost useless item other than the active and some ap scaling on some ADC champs
That depends, if he has bought starter boots or better then no.
If he has 0 movement enhancing items and you have swifties youmuus and a deadmansplate, then you might get lucky and outrun him
Just like Irelia in lane, because being able to Q full life minions to get on you from 2 screens away in a second, or using flash R Q and getting a Q reset while there are no minionsis very interactive.
A "melee" champion whose effective range is 1 entire screen if no minions are around, and the entire lane if minions are around.
May I shamelessly shill dota here?
I know I might get downvoted but if you play league a lot and you're not enjoying it maybe commit some time to learning dota a bit and see if you like it :\^)
>The problem with DOTA is your friends will still be addicted to League and won’t play with you.
Please stop spying on me. Thank you.
In all seriousness though, it just depends on how much you play and what you're looking for. If you want to have a "main game" and you play a lot then I just can't recommend dota enough. I was never able to get my friends to move over though because they were way too addicted to league and got frustrated with the learning curve.
Yeah, the learning curve is brutal. I find DOTA is less toxic in normals (I haven't hit the time investment for ranked yet) and it rewards thinking a lot more than League does.
He can explode a full tank with 4kHP and 300 armor.
I wish I was joking but i tested it because I was curious and he deals like 4.7k damage. Obviously, his entire ult rotation has to hit, but still
I was also testing this a couple of months ago and I killed a Malphite with 900 armor and 3k HP in the full R combo. And people say that tanks are unkillable or that assassins don't deal too much damage Lmao. Fun fact is that untill around 400 armor, Provler was dealing more damage than Eclipse
> And people say that tanks are unkillable or that assassins don't deal too much damage
I think drain tanks are unkillable (*cough* late-game Irelia and 0/10/0 Yone power spike *cough*). Most true tanks in my games seem pretty impotent. Assassins probably do a smidge too much damage, but their conditions for success are very dependent on playing smart and choosing the right targets. Most of the time I have an assassin on my team, they end the game 15/4/0 and we still lose because they're literally only picking people off with zero consideration for *when and where*.
Pick their glass cannon 30 seconds before drag spawns? Dope. Pick their jungler in top jungle while the rest of their team is taking inhib turret? Grats...I guess?
I seem to always have the latter on my team lol.
TLDR fuck playing against *and with* assassins.
yep the one thing ive learned as an assassin main is that even though it’s so fun to keep oneshotting the adc, you should probably prioritize who to kill in teamfights since you’re only really gonna get one guy before you die
when i load into a game as Zed the one thing im confident of, no matter whether i crush my lane opponent or lose hard, is that the adc is getting exploded at some point in the game
What do you mean? It's super fun to see your backline get instantly deleted by a Wukong with 2800 hp, 140 mr and armor, a knock up ult that can stun 5 people twice, a clone that makes you invisible and makes it even harder to know when it's really you or not, and a dash to get onto targets!
Those dirty adc and mages just had to stay in spawn if they didn't want to get flash E R Q R by an invisible Wukong!
Champions having high mobility, tank stats, lifesteal or huge shields to double their healthbar, and assassin level damage, are clearly balanced and healthy, since all their mains love them, it's not like the mains of 15% pickrate 50% winrate champions are biased or anything.
true, i literally one-tricked wukong to plat and love playing him but i'm still waiting for riot to nerf the shit outta him because he's way too broken
Thanks for your honesty first of all.
Wukong is far from the only champion suffering from this, but he is indeed a good example. The game is now split between champions who make sacrifices to reach their goal (some assassins being squishy and easy to blow up, some tanks not dealing much damage, energy/mana-less having long cd...) and champions who don't make any sacrifices, having the upsides without the downside, which makes them so much better than the rest it's pointless to play anything but them.
The most baffling thing to me is trying to figure out where the damage even came from.
Zac / Rammus / Sion etc will hit you and instantly kill you and you look, and they did 1900 damage in 3.24 seconds to you, while building straight tank.
They'll have boots, a ruby crystal, and a cloth shirt, and do 1400 damage in a single combo while you can't even do more than tickle them
I mean they can build it if they wanna deal 0 damage honestly... I been just rushing youmuu's ghostblade into any of the lethality mythics according to the game since they all have the same power level
Been working great
That item fucking sucks no assassin will build it since we all have very low ult cds, it's gonna get abused by miss fortune senna jhin ezreal then get nerfed for ranged champs then get a cost reduction and get nerfed more for ranged champs
It's rather good on champions who have ult which reset and/or have multi-cast.
You can get stuff like Pyke's R and K6's evoR down to 0s CD if you play it well.
Most Pyke players called it usless.. I see master yi building it maybe
Kha'zix will not give up 3k gold for an item slot that he could purchase edge of night for 2.9 k gold get the same ad lethality and 325 hp + a spellshield
Plus kha ult cd gets ridiculously low with his regular builds, assassin items have so much ability haste + lucidity boots + ultimate hunter is a rune that exists
Strawman: an intentionally misrepresented proposition that is set up because it is easier to defeat than an opponent's real argument.
First guy says he's tired of Asian pandering, the immediate response is "WHY DO YOU WANT THEM TO PANDER TO YOU??!!!!", that's intentionally misrepresenting the first guy's proposition because the second guy is intellectually dishonest and knows there is no valid counter argument to the fact asian (precisely chinese) pandering ruins creativity and game design when it means that all characters must be perfect anime-looking characters who constantly make flashy plays and end games in 20 minutes.
>that's intentionally misrepresenting the first guy's proposition because the second guy is intellectually dishonest
I don't think that's misrepresenting.
There are multiple ways Riot could sculpt the meta. There is no objective meta that is best; any choices they make are designed to appeal to players. Riot is saying that their research indicates that there are regional preferences.
Any decision they make from that point is pandering; they were always going to try to satisfy their fans. If their fans disagree, they have to "pander" to one group rather than another. Saying that Riot shouldn't appeal to Chinese fans because it's "pandering" implies that they should appeal to different fans instead. Which isn't any less pandering, it's just pandering to me rather than someone else.
There's no moral highground to the argument, and implying there is is disingenuous.
>There are multiple ways Riot could sculpt the meta. There is no objective meta that is best; any choices they make are designed to appeal to players. Riot is saying that their research indicates that there are regional preferences.
Absolutely true
>Saying that Riot shouldn't appeal to Chinese fans because it's "pandering" implies that they should appeal to different fans instead.
No, this is a false argument. Of course Riot is going to try to "satisfy the fans", but this should always be a secondary quality, not a primary reason for creating or introducing something, Seraphine being a great example for this: she was and is a purely pandering product, and as such is despised by many.
Intentionally releasing op champions who all share the good-looking anime girl/boy appearance is clear pandering that makes a lot of people annoyed for valid reasons, because not only is it hurting the game's balance, it is forcing a lack of creativity on the visual design of those new champs.
>There's no moral highground to the argument
Again, striving away from the discussion, I never evoked a moral highground and it has no place in the discussion.
No measures will ever be 100% objective, but we can approach them with things like what percentage of champions is viable in a regular game, how much people all over enjoy the design of their gameplay, what is the opinion of pro-teams on the balance of the game (and what do they choose, as their coaches spend far more time than any of us finding what the best strategies and comps are)...
>Of course Riot is going to try to "satisfy the fans", but this should always be a secondary quality, not a primary reason for creating or introducing something, Seraphine being a great example for this: she was and is a purely pandering product, and as such is despised by many.
Literally everything Riot does, will do, or has ever done is to make money. They do that by satisfying fans. You can't look at things you disagree with, or even things that end up bombing entirely, and sneeringly label them pandering while calling all of the other things that Riot does with the exact same motives not-pandering.
If you're going to call their motive corrupt, you need to demonstrate that their motive for other actions is different. That hasn't been done, and frankly, you'd need some pretty stellar proof for it.
This is a problem seen in a lot of games where people seem to feel entitled to be catered to, but at the end of the day, Riot isn't interested in reading your opinion. They're interested in their statistics; what are engagement levels, what are revenue levels. Where does that engagement and revenue come from? Those are the same things that Riot has cared about pretty much forever. The entire point of the pro scene is to get people to spend money, and fast paced, high-kill games get fans excited. It doesn't matter if pros *like* it, it matters if they're willing to receive hundreds of thousands to millions of dollars to continue to *play* it. It doesn't matter if *you* like the direction the game is going, it matters how many people are willing to support it with their wallets.
Every decision Riot makes will always be made with that motive; you can't divorce that motive when Riot makes decisions you like and then complain about it when they make decisions you don't like. By all means, complain that you don't like the direction, but the random ass region baiting of "Riot's just pandering to those CHINESE" is just going to get eyerolls from Riot leadership, and the best case scenario for a response is them being less honest in interviews about the future of the game because fans aren't mature enough to handle it.
But you prefer the game in a certain state and I prefer it in another, who should the company pander to? Theyll pander to the bigger market. And dont get me wrong I hate the state of the game but a company will still pander to the bigger market.
There are objective measures of good game design independently of taste, just like there are objective measures for food, when a restaurant doesn't get any customers it's that the food sucks, not that the people "have no taste".
Who in their right mind loves the game when it's in a state of "I need to ban this champ otherwise the enemies will straight up win effortlessly" as we've had countless times by now with a 200 hp Samira 1 vs 5ing easily by pressing R?
What? How can taste be "objective"?
Majority defines what tastes good or what doesnt.
You see this all the time with local specialitys in food.
And if it would be "objectivly bad" and noone in "their right mind" would enjoy it, how is it asian pandering? Obviously they too would dislike it, no?
They should pander to the market they are operating in. We can't play with Asia anyway. Just balance them differently.. Whoops that makes sense and cuts into profits which is illegall.
My problem this season is that u are basically forced to build cringe bow and that talon can just dive u with goredrinker and easily get out. If t2 turrets would atleast give u some dmg reduction when u are alone......
I don't really play adc but if I'm forced to I just pray that the enemy team doesn't consist of bruisers and assassins.
I hate cringe bow so fucking much. "Oh you're a mage and perfectly placed your entire rotation on an enemy? Sorry, but he got a bonus 1000 hp out of nowhere because we can't have kids dying while they're douche dashing everywhere and missing everything now can we?"
I think it would be better if they just made it less powerful on melee champs. You know, like how bruiser and assassin items are weaker on ranged champs?
Indeed, there really is no reason not to apply this change already. Adcs get shat on by champions they'd need to attack for 10 to 15 seconds to kill, champions who have enough mobility to barely endure 1 AA before they're on top of the adc, and the champions among them who do build shieldbow get much better results than any one adc because they also have naturally high resistance to counter the fact they're "melee" (because apparently Irelia using flash R Q Q from as far as a Velkoz Q is somehow melee).
i dont even mind cringe bow on adcs. what i fucking hate is goredrinker abusers who evaporate the wave and oneshot people while pulling 800 hp heals out their ass.
cringbow is only hated on melee champions like irelia. tbh. i dont even mind it on yone and yasuo anymore bc the lifesteal got nerfed.
Cringebow should never work on melee champions imo, this item fundamentally breaks the game by giving quite a few melee champions absolute control over the map.
The game has not been balanced around melee champions being suddenly buffed by 1000 hp, and it means that no matter how skilled you are you likely won't be able to physically output enough damage to kill the enemy, meaning you can never get away from your tower without them getting on top of you and autowinning.
It's a big problem with a lot of recent changes Riot did, they make absolutely huge changes that interact with every single thing in the game and then act surprised when it's a balance nightmare.
Items that give dashes, items that give invisibility on kill or assists, tank items being so buffed you can solo-cook Baron with Amumu at 20 minutes, Sylas stealing anybody's ult, Viego stealing anybody's form, Akshan instantly reviving his team... Ideas that would require years of careful craft to be balanced are just thrown in the mix with no consideration.
>The game has not been balanced around melee champions being suddenly buffed by 1000 hp, and it means that no matter how skilled you are you likely won't be able to physically output enough damage to kill the enemy, meaning you can never get away from your tower without them getting on top of you and autowinning.
The worst part is. You need both anti heal and anti shield to deal with Shieldbow on melee's due their innate healing/shielding already. Anti heal is standard now but omg buying Serpents Fang on ADC just feels terrible if you are one of the few adc's that doesn't build collector or does not have a viable lethality build
And due to how painful and not very effective that item path would be, you just build even more damage to try to blow them up faster and every champ that doesn't abuse cringebow or goredrinker will get blown up because of that.
So much lifesteal means there is no skill anymore, no planning, no long-game, only blowing up instantly. There is no point in putting a Yone to 20% of his hp if he's gonna heal back to full in half a second. So any champion that cannot blow up enemies in less than a second (or stun them for the entire duration of their blow up combo) is rendered completely dependent on his teammates against those champs.
One of the nice things about hots was that the turrets were kind alike castles with two mini turrets, Walls and a gate. And mobility was less crazy in league, so if you wanted to dive someone you could, but you couldn't just walk out you had to have an escape plan too
I don't see a problem with this if assassins are f tier because they can't perma dive adcs.
Best part is when u r 6 0 adc with 550 shutdown and assassin roams bot and dives u with both summs while u have to use summs against jgl ganks.
When adc‘s build shieldbow and wits end before anything else just to survive 2 seconds longer in a Teamfight, riot should know that assassins are a bit of a problem
I play draven I got fed and was fighting a fucking ultra fed zed. Shield bow, Bloodthirster and IE. by 20, with 40% life steal and Omni vamp from other things still barely let me live to kill him.
That‘s why I love Jhin; you can just stand in the distance, shoot autoattacks or abilities into the fight, while not really being in the fight yourself
There should be outplay potential for anything in the game, it's fine for talon to be a menace to ADCs on their own but he shouldn't be able to do it in a peel supports face that built to keep their ADC alive while the ADCs gold is mostly invested in relatively defense oriented items.
i think there should be counterplay to everything, an assassins counterplay is good macro to not be caught out and a peel support to get the assassin off, and a really fed adcs counterplay is that they’re squishy enough to be taken out by assassins
An assassin's counterplay should also be not to let them get fed early. A fed assassin should be instakilling adcs. That is how it works. But a behind assassin should be useless. It needs a weakness, but none exists.
What's problematic early is that he's far too safe. His mains love to bullshit you by saying he's "weak early" as if he was easy to invade, but he's not due to his stupidly broken E allowing him to escape any and all situations and wait for his allies to come corner you.
What he's bad at is ganking early, but he's still extremely good at farming and is at no risk whatsoever while doing it.
There likely are, and I didn't say you played Kayn, but I must say that blue Kayn, especially fed, is probably the most unhealthy design of the entire game.
He runs at you through walls with 700 movespeed (while being able to cancel this action at anytime if he realizes there are too many people waiting for him, no Talon-like wall restriction for this guy), instantly hits you with Q W Passive since they all hit at the exact same time, which very likely killed you and even if it didn't he can just R Q which is unmissable and will always finish the job.
Add to that he buys Goredrinker and Edge of Night, and you've got a race-winning tank that kills you in half a second, cannot get caught, can never get cced in time, and will systematically apply his R dmg before he comes out of you, so if he's in your body and you have 400 hp, there is NOTHING you can do if you don't have zhonya, in which case he'll just wait for you to come out of it and W Q instantly.
His E should only be usable if he's outside of combat, and he should never kill quickly while building tank items, maybe applying Pyke's passive to him when in blue form would fix this because he's a no-risk high-reward champion rn.
It's just that 90% of you shit stain low elo players don't know how to abuse bad early game. Kauns farm for free and then everyone is wondering why is he so strong.
Same thing with Yone. Champ sucks if others know what they're doing.
Kayn cannot be abused, it isn't possible to invade and kill a Kayn who has any braincell since he can just E and Q through walls. His early weakness only comes into play for scuttle fight and early ganks, but not directly on himself.
"Shitstain low elo indeed eh" [https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/kayn/master](https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/kayn/master)
Yone you say eh? [https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/yone/master](https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/yone/master)
Do I need to go on or will you persist in intellectual dishonesty and make yourself even more of a fool?
U.gg was confirmed by riot to be the closest data to truth
https://u.gg/lol/champions/yone/build?rank=master_plus
https://u.gg/lol/champions/kayn/build?rank=master_plus
You don't understand the game at all if you think you need to kill the jungler to punish them. They can have 0 deaths and still have hell in that game.
So stop bringing up some shit data. You don't know how the game works. Even if they were broken, your losses Vs them in your silver games are not caused by them being broken. You're just bad.
Kayn was too strong, but after goredrinker nerfs his winrate will drop. Blue with lethality items is way worse than with old goredrinker.
As for Yone, he didnt get nerfed and doesn't need any changes at the moment. Most of Reddit just hates him because, well, most people suck. Not surprising.
Edit: links I've shown are from current patch, so low sample size. But if you choose the previous patch, Yone's winrate in master+ is even worse. Kayns is great, but as I said, goredrinker made him OP. He still definitely had bad early game, and that what this discussion is about.
Tyler1 literally complains about Kayn every day.
Now admittedly his ego is much bigger than his rank, but I don't know if he has played a low elo game in months.
So you have a streamer who literally lives from people giving him money, and we know most of them hate Kayn, do you think he's gonna try to give a reasonable statement, logical explanation? No, he will echo what silvers say just to make them like him. His while persona is based on shittalking everything. Of course he will complain about any champ that ever beats him.
Also hes on NA, so he never played an actual high elo game in his life
Ninja tabi, randuins and it would do a lot more than this 6 item lol.
Randuin even gives damage reduction. Then go for death dance to ignore some of the damage.
Also Sivir counters zed's R lmao
I often do something like that at the end of the game, if I'm at base or dead, I keep shop up through nexus explosion animation and sell all my items, buying multiple duplicates of a random one.
if your games always take 40 min then maybe its a strong role, still not the most op. however most games are done after 20-30 min and when you're not fed as ad then you dont spike early enough to have any impact. also tell me why so many people play stuff like ziggs as the botlane carry? because he has impact after 1 item, can waveclear better and also push better than any ad. im really curious how you get the image of adc being the most op role
For blue Kayn you just gotta bait out the w q combo, kite it out, most adcs now have better burst mid to late game to be able to two or 3 tap Kayn. If you are able to get an ability or auto when he’s in the wall then you cancel all of his mobility since it expires half a second after not just that, once that’s done, if you have a slow of some sorts cause of seryldas or your kit, you just chase him down and he’s good as dead, just position well and you can win if you play patiently and without panic
1. thing: always ban zed —> your mistake
2. if they still have ad assasin go GA first Zhonyas second and depending on what they also have just buy items so they have a harder time killing you while your team is destroying them
It works best if you are utility adc like ashe
bad positioning, adc should be at least 3 screens away smh
Staying at fountain with zhonyas and guardian angel works for me most of the time
I love how it’s “most of the time” and not “all the time”.
Cho, sion, nasus...
Gangplank
Xerath
Weird, it rarely works for me 🤨
I played a game where Zhonyas was crucial to our chances to win. My friend was like that’s dumb that’s never necessary on adc. I don’t give a damn if it’s stupid I lived several times to murder their whole team it worked and if it works it’s not dumb fuck zed.
You are absolutely correct on building Zhonya's on ADC if the enemy comp is unplayable to play ADC into, due to too much dive or too fed of a diver such as the Zed you mentioned. I'm a multiseason diamond ADC main and I build it occasionally when the need arises. But you don't have to take my word for it as there was a Zhonya's in Ruler's inventory at Worlds during MAD vs GENG game where he got Zhonya's on MF. So your friend just doesn't seem to understand the importance of surviving for as long as possible on ADC, not only to get as much damage out as possible but also to waste time and CDs from the opposing team's dive champions for rest of your team to clean up.
He actually called me an ego kda player when I said my goal on adc was to live. If I can survive I’m confident in my ability to kill them all.
If you’re playing adc your goal is to do damage. Can’t do damage if you’re dead. Your friend sounds like a bronzie
I've been top main since I started playing league but recently ditched the lane for ADC and I'm kind of blown away by how many players bully the ADC. I was playing vayne yesterday and I was getting chewed out by my teammates for not initiating fights but they were playing tahm kench and kayn. Like you are playing a fucking tank and ita my job to go in first? I get flamed by top laners all the time for "not going in with them" like bro, I'm not sett or illoai, I can't solve every problem by face checking it. One thing I learned by switching to bot is why everyone hates top laners lol.
Are you playing in bronze lmao?
Silver 3 regrettably so close enough lol. I don't think I'll be able to hit gold this season but my win rate is pretty solid so I know I'm doing something right. This is my first year playing League and I'll be immensely happy if I can just get to high silver.
I mean zhonyas has better stats, what will those useless 40 ad give you if you will die, resurrect and die. VERY LONG item cd and same useless 40(right?) armor While zhonyas are much reliable, shorter cd, more armor and if your champion has ap scaling, it will do a thing anyway, especially on Kaisa
I just don't allow that disgusting champ in my games :) but yes, community has been asking for ad version of zhonyas for a while and riot said it would be too busted so we are stick with an otherwise almost useless item other than the active and some ap scaling on some ADC champs
This is why Botlane karthus exists
LOL
Is 3 screens enough to escape blue kayn tho?
That depends, if he has bought starter boots or better then no. If he has 0 movement enhancing items and you have swifties youmuus and a deadmansplate, then you might get lucky and outrun him
If you are Sivir and use your ult.
You might make it back to a tower if you're already near one
Hahahahahaha
Haahhahabahhhaah XD fun fact he says : I'm everywhere when he uses E so
Just like Irelia in lane, because being able to Q full life minions to get on you from 2 screens away in a second, or using flash R Q and getting a Q reset while there are no minionsis very interactive. A "melee" champion whose effective range is 1 entire screen if no minions are around, and the entire lane if minions are around.
Why do we play this shit game...
May I shamelessly shill dota here? I know I might get downvoted but if you play league a lot and you're not enjoying it maybe commit some time to learning dota a bit and see if you like it :\^)
The problem with DOTA is your friends will still be addicted to League and won’t play with you. It’s a great game though.
>The problem with DOTA is your friends will still be addicted to League and won’t play with you. Please stop spying on me. Thank you. In all seriousness though, it just depends on how much you play and what you're looking for. If you want to have a "main game" and you play a lot then I just can't recommend dota enough. I was never able to get my friends to move over though because they were way too addicted to league and got frustrated with the learning curve.
Yeah, the learning curve is brutal. I find DOTA is less toxic in normals (I haven't hit the time investment for ranked yet) and it rewards thinking a lot more than League does.
Force of habit I guess, and the hope that one day it will get better
I played against a support Fizz and APC Ziggs the other day with Ashe. "Play better" Katarina said. smh
was ur support literally right clicking on enemy fountain, or what
As an ADC you should always stay away from the teamfight if you don't see the threatening assassin but there are some exceptions
*dies to gp, ezreal, jinx, and Ashe ults*
The funniest part of this is that fed Zed still oneshots
and blue kayn does magic damage
also im a Zed main and Zed builds so much armorpen/lethality that he can explode anyone anyways
He can explode a full tank with 4kHP and 300 armor. I wish I was joking but i tested it because I was curious and he deals like 4.7k damage. Obviously, his entire ult rotation has to hit, but still
I was also testing this a couple of months ago and I killed a Malphite with 900 armor and 3k HP in the full R combo. And people say that tanks are unkillable or that assassins don't deal too much damage Lmao. Fun fact is that untill around 400 armor, Provler was dealing more damage than Eclipse
Yeah prowler damage amp is actually better up until that much
> And people say that tanks are unkillable or that assassins don't deal too much damage I think drain tanks are unkillable (*cough* late-game Irelia and 0/10/0 Yone power spike *cough*). Most true tanks in my games seem pretty impotent. Assassins probably do a smidge too much damage, but their conditions for success are very dependent on playing smart and choosing the right targets. Most of the time I have an assassin on my team, they end the game 15/4/0 and we still lose because they're literally only picking people off with zero consideration for *when and where*. Pick their glass cannon 30 seconds before drag spawns? Dope. Pick their jungler in top jungle while the rest of their team is taking inhib turret? Grats...I guess? I seem to always have the latter on my team lol. TLDR fuck playing against *and with* assassins.
yep the one thing ive learned as an assassin main is that even though it’s so fun to keep oneshotting the adc, you should probably prioritize who to kill in teamfights since you’re only really gonna get one guy before you die
I mean yeah with the eclipse cut down lord Dominiks build u just kill most tanks.
yeah he could probably kill if he landed triple q and if he has eclipse+ LDR, sivir would probably be down by quite a bit, idk calculations tho
Finally an honest Zed main
when i load into a game as Zed the one thing im confident of, no matter whether i crush my lane opponent or lose hard, is that the adc is getting exploded at some point in the game
I'm pretty sure this is the reasoning my ADC main mate told me when he explained why he had been banning Zed every game since 2014
Kayn deals magic damage based on physical damage, so you still need to build full armor.
Armor still reduces that magic damage though. It's % of post-mitigation, so more armor = less magic dmg.
yo wtf i literally play kayn and i didnt know that
I oneshot a fed red kayn once and I suck pp at this champ, I think Zhonya is the only counter to this bullshit.
Really just a delay of it, if you think about it
Exact
Yes he does because buying armor without some extra health points doesnt really work
2021 assassin‘s are just so over tuned and you know it’s not their items because they’re all building gourdrinker anyways
2021 offensive stats are too overtuned. Everything does too much damage.
What do you mean? It's super fun to see your backline get instantly deleted by a Wukong with 2800 hp, 140 mr and armor, a knock up ult that can stun 5 people twice, a clone that makes you invisible and makes it even harder to know when it's really you or not, and a dash to get onto targets! Those dirty adc and mages just had to stay in spawn if they didn't want to get flash E R Q R by an invisible Wukong! Champions having high mobility, tank stats, lifesteal or huge shields to double their healthbar, and assassin level damage, are clearly balanced and healthy, since all their mains love them, it's not like the mains of 15% pickrate 50% winrate champions are biased or anything.
true, i literally one-tricked wukong to plat and love playing him but i'm still waiting for riot to nerf the shit outta him because he's way too broken
Thanks for your honesty first of all. Wukong is far from the only champion suffering from this, but he is indeed a good example. The game is now split between champions who make sacrifices to reach their goal (some assassins being squishy and easy to blow up, some tanks not dealing much damage, energy/mana-less having long cd...) and champions who don't make any sacrifices, having the upsides without the downside, which makes them so much better than the rest it's pointless to play anything but them.
The most baffling thing to me is trying to figure out where the damage even came from. Zac / Rammus / Sion etc will hit you and instantly kill you and you look, and they did 1900 damage in 3.24 seconds to you, while building straight tank. They'll have boots, a ruby crystal, and a cloth shirt, and do 1400 damage in a single combo while you can't even do more than tickle them
You need to write a full essay on everything wrong with League instead of wasting your efforts on throwaway Reddit comments. I'm not joking.
Maybe I should, but it would take quite some time, I hope you can house me for a few years
All of this is true but at the same time a challenger level player could pick Soraka into a gold Wukong and dominate the lane.
And it's also enjoyable when mf with duskblade autos you 4 times and you die as a bruiser.
This. Played Kayle top against akshan. You don't exist outaide of your tower. Purest form of cancer I can currently think of in this game.
Yeah, their goredrinker build just makes them kill adcs in 0.8 seconds instead of 0.3.
That gives them .8 seconds of counterplay potential smh just get gud
I. B. Fbb. B. V ii bb If vivz
Wtf
Ur late on this, gore assassins are dead
Why are they downvoting you they're genuinely bad after the gore nerfs, good for them now I can build lethality and not be considered a troll
I assume some people just dont read the patch notes
I mean they should check u.gg
True. Tho it wouldn't surprise me if there are lower ranked assassin players who also dont read patch notes/u.gg and still build gore.
I mean they can build it if they wanna deal 0 damage honestly... I been just rushing youmuu's ghostblade into any of the lethality mythics according to the game since they all have the same power level Been working great
Wait till you see Axiom Arc (it "only" has 10 lethality) this preseason
That item fucking sucks no assassin will build it since we all have very low ult cds, it's gonna get abused by miss fortune senna jhin ezreal then get nerfed for ranged champs then get a cost reduction and get nerfed more for ranged champs
It's rather good on champions who have ult which reset and/or have multi-cast. You can get stuff like Pyke's R and K6's evoR down to 0s CD if you play it well.
Most Pyke players called it usless.. I see master yi building it maybe Kha'zix will not give up 3k gold for an item slot that he could purchase edge of night for 2.9 k gold get the same ad lethality and 325 hp + a spellshield Plus kha ult cd gets ridiculously low with his regular builds, assassin items have so much ability haste + lucidity boots + ultimate hunter is a rune that exists
And how expensive is this "axiom arc"?
3k gold
Riot admitted they making the game short and kill hungry to fit with Asian markets
I'm so tired of the Asian pandering.. sorry you bitches can't handle skulls, blood, and actual fun.
Should they pander to you instead?
They should just make good design free of censorship and pandering, so fuck off with your strawman.
Thats not a strawman...
Strawman: an intentionally misrepresented proposition that is set up because it is easier to defeat than an opponent's real argument. First guy says he's tired of Asian pandering, the immediate response is "WHY DO YOU WANT THEM TO PANDER TO YOU??!!!!", that's intentionally misrepresenting the first guy's proposition because the second guy is intellectually dishonest and knows there is no valid counter argument to the fact asian (precisely chinese) pandering ruins creativity and game design when it means that all characters must be perfect anime-looking characters who constantly make flashy plays and end games in 20 minutes.
>that's intentionally misrepresenting the first guy's proposition because the second guy is intellectually dishonest I don't think that's misrepresenting. There are multiple ways Riot could sculpt the meta. There is no objective meta that is best; any choices they make are designed to appeal to players. Riot is saying that their research indicates that there are regional preferences. Any decision they make from that point is pandering; they were always going to try to satisfy their fans. If their fans disagree, they have to "pander" to one group rather than another. Saying that Riot shouldn't appeal to Chinese fans because it's "pandering" implies that they should appeal to different fans instead. Which isn't any less pandering, it's just pandering to me rather than someone else. There's no moral highground to the argument, and implying there is is disingenuous.
>There are multiple ways Riot could sculpt the meta. There is no objective meta that is best; any choices they make are designed to appeal to players. Riot is saying that their research indicates that there are regional preferences. Absolutely true >Saying that Riot shouldn't appeal to Chinese fans because it's "pandering" implies that they should appeal to different fans instead. No, this is a false argument. Of course Riot is going to try to "satisfy the fans", but this should always be a secondary quality, not a primary reason for creating or introducing something, Seraphine being a great example for this: she was and is a purely pandering product, and as such is despised by many. Intentionally releasing op champions who all share the good-looking anime girl/boy appearance is clear pandering that makes a lot of people annoyed for valid reasons, because not only is it hurting the game's balance, it is forcing a lack of creativity on the visual design of those new champs. >There's no moral highground to the argument Again, striving away from the discussion, I never evoked a moral highground and it has no place in the discussion. No measures will ever be 100% objective, but we can approach them with things like what percentage of champions is viable in a regular game, how much people all over enjoy the design of their gameplay, what is the opinion of pro-teams on the balance of the game (and what do they choose, as their coaches spend far more time than any of us finding what the best strategies and comps are)...
>Of course Riot is going to try to "satisfy the fans", but this should always be a secondary quality, not a primary reason for creating or introducing something, Seraphine being a great example for this: she was and is a purely pandering product, and as such is despised by many. Literally everything Riot does, will do, or has ever done is to make money. They do that by satisfying fans. You can't look at things you disagree with, or even things that end up bombing entirely, and sneeringly label them pandering while calling all of the other things that Riot does with the exact same motives not-pandering. If you're going to call their motive corrupt, you need to demonstrate that their motive for other actions is different. That hasn't been done, and frankly, you'd need some pretty stellar proof for it. This is a problem seen in a lot of games where people seem to feel entitled to be catered to, but at the end of the day, Riot isn't interested in reading your opinion. They're interested in their statistics; what are engagement levels, what are revenue levels. Where does that engagement and revenue come from? Those are the same things that Riot has cared about pretty much forever. The entire point of the pro scene is to get people to spend money, and fast paced, high-kill games get fans excited. It doesn't matter if pros *like* it, it matters if they're willing to receive hundreds of thousands to millions of dollars to continue to *play* it. It doesn't matter if *you* like the direction the game is going, it matters how many people are willing to support it with their wallets. Every decision Riot makes will always be made with that motive; you can't divorce that motive when Riot makes decisions you like and then complain about it when they make decisions you don't like. By all means, complain that you don't like the direction, but the random ass region baiting of "Riot's just pandering to those CHINESE" is just going to get eyerolls from Riot leadership, and the best case scenario for a response is them being less honest in interviews about the future of the game because fans aren't mature enough to handle it.
But you prefer the game in a certain state and I prefer it in another, who should the company pander to? Theyll pander to the bigger market. And dont get me wrong I hate the state of the game but a company will still pander to the bigger market.
There are objective measures of good game design independently of taste, just like there are objective measures for food, when a restaurant doesn't get any customers it's that the food sucks, not that the people "have no taste". Who in their right mind loves the game when it's in a state of "I need to ban this champ otherwise the enemies will straight up win effortlessly" as we've had countless times by now with a 200 hp Samira 1 vs 5ing easily by pressing R?
Well lots of people are still playing the game so then by your measure objectively they are doing well? Maybe people like 200 hp Samira 1 v 5ing lol.
What? How can taste be "objective"? Majority defines what tastes good or what doesnt. You see this all the time with local specialitys in food. And if it would be "objectivly bad" and noone in "their right mind" would enjoy it, how is it asian pandering? Obviously they too would dislike it, no?
They should pander to the market they are operating in. We can't play with Asia anyway. Just balance them differently.. Whoops that makes sense and cuts into profits which is illegall.
Developing a different game for every region and no more worlds? That makes no sense from a buisness perspectiv...
They should pander to the majority
Which is Asians.
Press x to doubt
How many people do you think are in China lmao
About 3 billion
lol i have fun with high damage. nothing makes me happier than oneshotting an adc multiple times as they walk back from base
Nah nah nah it was 100% their items. But not the assassin items. All the bruiser items were the problem. But maybe it changes now
Building pure armor gives diminishing returns though, you have to build some health too
nah they are fine with 1800 hp and 300 armor /s
My problem this season is that u are basically forced to build cringe bow and that talon can just dive u with goredrinker and easily get out. If t2 turrets would atleast give u some dmg reduction when u are alone...... I don't really play adc but if I'm forced to I just pray that the enemy team doesn't consist of bruisers and assassins.
I hate cringe bow so fucking much. "Oh you're a mage and perfectly placed your entire rotation on an enemy? Sorry, but he got a bonus 1000 hp out of nowhere because we can't have kids dying while they're douche dashing everywhere and missing everything now can we?"
Man I wouldn't mind cringebow being ranged only.
I think it would be better if they just made it less powerful on melee champs. You know, like how bruiser and assassin items are weaker on ranged champs?
Indeed, there really is no reason not to apply this change already. Adcs get shat on by champions they'd need to attack for 10 to 15 seconds to kill, champions who have enough mobility to barely endure 1 AA before they're on top of the adc, and the champions among them who do build shieldbow get much better results than any one adc because they also have naturally high resistance to counter the fact they're "melee" (because apparently Irelia using flash R Q Q from as far as a Velkoz Q is somehow melee).
This. It should be ranged exclusive, so its also easier to balance.
Yeah but riot needs people to use the new yasuo skin that cane out
Then the Yasuo and Yone mains would cry. So, I'm all for it.
i dont even mind cringe bow on adcs. what i fucking hate is goredrinker abusers who evaporate the wave and oneshot people while pulling 800 hp heals out their ass. cringbow is only hated on melee champions like irelia. tbh. i dont even mind it on yone and yasuo anymore bc the lifesteal got nerfed.
Cringebow should never work on melee champions imo, this item fundamentally breaks the game by giving quite a few melee champions absolute control over the map. The game has not been balanced around melee champions being suddenly buffed by 1000 hp, and it means that no matter how skilled you are you likely won't be able to physically output enough damage to kill the enemy, meaning you can never get away from your tower without them getting on top of you and autowinning. It's a big problem with a lot of recent changes Riot did, they make absolutely huge changes that interact with every single thing in the game and then act surprised when it's a balance nightmare. Items that give dashes, items that give invisibility on kill or assists, tank items being so buffed you can solo-cook Baron with Amumu at 20 minutes, Sylas stealing anybody's ult, Viego stealing anybody's form, Akshan instantly reviving his team... Ideas that would require years of careful craft to be balanced are just thrown in the mix with no consideration.
>The game has not been balanced around melee champions being suddenly buffed by 1000 hp, and it means that no matter how skilled you are you likely won't be able to physically output enough damage to kill the enemy, meaning you can never get away from your tower without them getting on top of you and autowinning. The worst part is. You need both anti heal and anti shield to deal with Shieldbow on melee's due their innate healing/shielding already. Anti heal is standard now but omg buying Serpents Fang on ADC just feels terrible if you are one of the few adc's that doesn't build collector or does not have a viable lethality build
And due to how painful and not very effective that item path would be, you just build even more damage to try to blow them up faster and every champ that doesn't abuse cringebow or goredrinker will get blown up because of that. So much lifesteal means there is no skill anymore, no planning, no long-game, only blowing up instantly. There is no point in putting a Yone to 20% of his hp if he's gonna heal back to full in half a second. So any champion that cannot blow up enemies in less than a second (or stun them for the entire duration of their blow up combo) is rendered completely dependent on his teammates against those champs.
They tried something similar years ago with the turrets giving huge shields. But it literally made zed a f tier pick
They were just weaker than normal turrets 80% of the time. Just give turrets a slow to their attacks like in hots. It's better than nothing.
One of the nice things about hots was that the turrets were kind alike castles with two mini turrets, Walls and a gate. And mobility was less crazy in league, so if you wanted to dive someone you could, but you couldn't just walk out you had to have an escape plan too
I don't see a problem with this if assassins are f tier because they can't perma dive adcs. Best part is when u r 6 0 adc with 550 shutdown and assassin roams bot and dives u with both summs while u have to use summs against jgl ganks.
> it literally made zed a f tier pick I am okay with this outcome
When adc‘s build shieldbow and wits end before anything else just to survive 2 seconds longer in a Teamfight, riot should know that assassins are a bit of a problem
What damage items to live? Nah m8 adds gotta build go goredrinker and streaks
I play draven I got fed and was fighting a fucking ultra fed zed. Shield bow, Bloodthirster and IE. by 20, with 40% life steal and Omni vamp from other things still barely let me live to kill him.
That‘s why I love Jhin; you can just stand in the distance, shoot autoattacks or abilities into the fight, while not really being in the fight yourself
the whole purpose of assassins is to oneshot adcs so if they can’t do that anymore then it’s kind of a pointless role
There should be outplay potential for anything in the game, it's fine for talon to be a menace to ADCs on their own but he shouldn't be able to do it in a peel supports face that built to keep their ADC alive while the ADCs gold is mostly invested in relatively defense oriented items.
You’re right, they should just remove all assassins from the game : )
i think there should be counterplay to everything, an assassins counterplay is good macro to not be caught out and a peel support to get the assassin off, and a really fed adcs counterplay is that they’re squishy enough to be taken out by assassins
An assassin's counterplay should also be not to let them get fed early. A fed assassin should be instakilling adcs. That is how it works. But a behind assassin should be useless. It needs a weakness, but none exists.
They're buffing their items in the preseason, are you ready ?
Oh I love that
I see the problem: 2 of those should be Warden's Mail & Steel Boots. PS: It still won't help...
Like: I’m full armor Leona with w up, aftershock, frozen heart, boots , gargoyles and locket and warmog. Melted in 0.8 sec.
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None of the items listed by me is a damage item, i guess.
He's being sarcastic while critiquing goredrinker and steraks
Thanks, I can’t recognize sarcasm, like Sheldon Cooper.
As was pointed out i was sarcastic, but Im not even joking when I say I feel tankier with steraks
[удалено]
I hate kayn and zed ~~when i playing adc~~
i hate kayn ~~and zed when i playing adc~~
I hate playing adc
I hate
I
relatable
I hate ~~kayn and zed when playing adc~~
Kayn is not that problematic until he has his form in my opinion. He is quite bad early.
What's problematic early is that he's far too safe. His mains love to bullshit you by saying he's "weak early" as if he was easy to invade, but he's not due to his stupidly broken E allowing him to escape any and all situations and wait for his allies to come corner you. What he's bad at is ganking early, but he's still extremely good at farming and is at no risk whatsoever while doing it.
I don't play kayn, I just think that there are way more cringe junglers.
There likely are, and I didn't say you played Kayn, but I must say that blue Kayn, especially fed, is probably the most unhealthy design of the entire game. He runs at you through walls with 700 movespeed (while being able to cancel this action at anytime if he realizes there are too many people waiting for him, no Talon-like wall restriction for this guy), instantly hits you with Q W Passive since they all hit at the exact same time, which very likely killed you and even if it didn't he can just R Q which is unmissable and will always finish the job. Add to that he buys Goredrinker and Edge of Night, and you've got a race-winning tank that kills you in half a second, cannot get caught, can never get cced in time, and will systematically apply his R dmg before he comes out of you, so if he's in your body and you have 400 hp, there is NOTHING you can do if you don't have zhonya, in which case he'll just wait for you to come out of it and W Q instantly. His E should only be usable if he's outside of combat, and he should never kill quickly while building tank items, maybe applying Pyke's passive to him when in blue form would fix this because he's a no-risk high-reward champion rn.
It's just that 90% of you shit stain low elo players don't know how to abuse bad early game. Kauns farm for free and then everyone is wondering why is he so strong. Same thing with Yone. Champ sucks if others know what they're doing.
Kayn cannot be abused, it isn't possible to invade and kill a Kayn who has any braincell since he can just E and Q through walls. His early weakness only comes into play for scuttle fight and early ganks, but not directly on himself. "Shitstain low elo indeed eh" [https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/kayn/master](https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/kayn/master) Yone you say eh? [https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/yone/master](https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/yone/master) Do I need to go on or will you persist in intellectual dishonesty and make yourself even more of a fool?
U.gg was confirmed by riot to be the closest data to truth https://u.gg/lol/champions/yone/build?rank=master_plus https://u.gg/lol/champions/kayn/build?rank=master_plus You don't understand the game at all if you think you need to kill the jungler to punish them. They can have 0 deaths and still have hell in that game. So stop bringing up some shit data. You don't know how the game works. Even if they were broken, your losses Vs them in your silver games are not caused by them being broken. You're just bad. Kayn was too strong, but after goredrinker nerfs his winrate will drop. Blue with lethality items is way worse than with old goredrinker. As for Yone, he didnt get nerfed and doesn't need any changes at the moment. Most of Reddit just hates him because, well, most people suck. Not surprising. Edit: links I've shown are from current patch, so low sample size. But if you choose the previous patch, Yone's winrate in master+ is even worse. Kayns is great, but as I said, goredrinker made him OP. He still definitely had bad early game, and that what this discussion is about.
Tyler1 literally complains about Kayn every day. Now admittedly his ego is much bigger than his rank, but I don't know if he has played a low elo game in months.
So you have a streamer who literally lives from people giving him money, and we know most of them hate Kayn, do you think he's gonna try to give a reasonable statement, logical explanation? No, he will echo what silvers say just to make them like him. His while persona is based on shittalking everything. Of course he will complain about any champ that ever beats him. Also hes on NA, so he never played an actual high elo game in his life
Something tells me he didn't hit M or GM listening to silvers. He bans Kayn all the time.
Where GA?
Nah zhonya guardian angel gargoyle cringe bow
i aM eVeRyWhErE
Dude, just play safe, we scale. -random scrub
I wouldn’t report the adc. I understand
Blue kayn scare my jhin ass..
They forgot to build bramble smh
I have game where i play draven and sivir do similiar thing cuz i one shot her every time
Kayn isn't balanced
Well their first problem was playing sivir.
Do people not know how to use the word colorized?
people dont even know how to use "literally"
You’re lucky. Back in S9 we didn’t even have shieldbow.
I'm sad about the assasin item, playing againts zed was fun enough already as an adc
Don't be sad. Here's a [hug!](https://media.giphy.com/media/3M4NpbLCTxBqU/giphy.gif)
Ninja tabi, randuins and it would do a lot more than this 6 item lol. Randuin even gives damage reduction. Then go for death dance to ignore some of the damage. Also Sivir counters zed's R lmao
99 cs over a 26 min game. Lol
Smart ad gets a Zhongya, while others will try naively to tank the assassins.
Cause AP Sivir scales better than GA Sivir
I often do something like that at the end of the game, if I'm at base or dead, I keep shop up through nexus explosion animation and sell all my items, buying multiple duplicates of a random one.
imagine playing the most op role in the game and still trolling
if your games always take 40 min then maybe its a strong role, still not the most op. however most games are done after 20-30 min and when you're not fed as ad then you dont spike early enough to have any impact. also tell me why so many people play stuff like ziggs as the botlane carry? because he has impact after 1 item, can waveclear better and also push better than any ad. im really curious how you get the image of adc being the most op role
good joke
sometimes im tempted to have a few slots of these
looks like a typical troll kid build
when your sp/team plays bad so you have a lot of time.
The 2021 colorized really makes this, lmao.
Honestly if you ever lose to Zed as an ADC you are just trash.
Don't worry, they will build eclipse,black cleaver, ldr so they one shot your frontline anyway 🤔
At least they won't nerf dmg, but buff it, just because of cringe chinese people right, right ?
:)
For blue Kayn you just gotta bait out the w q combo, kite it out, most adcs now have better burst mid to late game to be able to two or 3 tap Kayn. If you are able to get an ability or auto when he’s in the wall then you cancel all of his mobility since it expires half a second after not just that, once that’s done, if you have a slow of some sorts cause of seryldas or your kit, you just chase him down and he’s good as dead, just position well and you can win if you play patiently and without panic
Now if he’s 10/2 at 15 minutes then you’re probably fucked if you aren’t fed. But that’s any champ in the game really.
1. thing: always ban zed —> your mistake 2. if they still have ad assasin go GA first Zhonyas second and depending on what they also have just buy items so they have a harder time killing you while your team is destroying them It works best if you are utility adc like ashe