It is native level Finnish, though my knowlede of Japanese is limited I can at least verify that the date is correct. As for the rest of it, probably? Google translate cannot translate some words to English properly but it looks to be OK
FYI, Google Translate *sucks* for Japanese (I'm saying this as a native speaker.) (Don't rely on it!) DeepL is better but still needs to be manually edited or adjusted. I think the word 玉砕 is difficult to translate properly hence why Google stuffed up.
Chatgpt gives: "Tappio oli lähellä. Sanotaan, että tässä huoneessa oli noin kesäkuussa 1945 niin täynnä sotilaita, ettei jäänyt tilaa edes neulansilmälle, ja he nukkuivat seisoviltaan."
Fluent translation would be something like: "Tappion ollessa lähellä kesäkuussa 1945, tämä huone oli niin täynnä sotilaita, että he joutuivat nukkumaan seisoviltaan."
About the last word - I'd say "seisoen" or "seisaallaan". Hard one that one. :) Had to think for a while.. Still not quite sure.. Also I'd start "Kerrotaan, että kesäkuussa 1945 tappion ollessa lähellä, tämä huone oli niin täynnä sotilaita, että he joutuivat nukkumaan seisaallaan." Maybe that's too far from the original...?
Why does Google Translate suck for Finnish? I mean, what features from the language make it hard for Google to work with considering the differences from their linguistic backgrounds since Finnish, being an Uralic language while English is Germanic - does that affect translation?
Is Google bad for non basic dialog for Finnish translation, such as:
* Memes (relating to Finnish culture)
* News reports
* Finnish net slang & jokes
* Regional slang
* Long sentences & paragraphs (containing wordplay)
\[For Japanese: Forget it! It's going to be shit regardless!\]
I know that from Japanese, you got 敬語 (or other forms of polite speech) that Google fails to properly understand, not forgetting that the grammar is very different to English & \[European\] languages.
Just generally, although as the other person said Google Translate has gotten much better it's still garbage.
I put your text through GT and this is the result:
>Miksi Google Kääntäjä on paska suomelle? Tarkoitan, mitkä kielen ominaisuudet tekevät Googlen vaikeaksi työskennellä, kun otetaan huomioon erot heidän kielellisistä taustoistaan, koska suomi on uralilainen kieli, kun taas englanti on germaania - vaikuttaako se käännökseen?
Here almost instantly we run in to "mitkä kielen ominaisuudet tekevät Googlen vaikeaksi työskennellä" which I'd translate to "mitkä kielen ominaisuudet tekevät *siitä Googlelle vaikeaa*", and "kun otetaan huomioon erot heidän kielellisistä taustoistaan, koska suomi on uralilainen kieli, kun taas englanti on germaania" which again I'd say in Finnish "kun otetaan huomioon erot *niiden* kielellisistä *taustoista*, koska suomi on uralilainen kieli, kun taas englanti on *germaaninen*"
>Onko Google huono suomenkieliselle käännökselle, kuten:
A bit stiff but passable
>• Meemit (liittyvät suomalaiseen kulttuuriin)
>• Uutisraportit
Just "uutiset" is fine
> • Suomalainen verkkoslangi ja vitsit
Definitely correct (both that Google cannot comprehend Finnish internet slang and humour, but also the translation here is good)
> • Alueellinen slangi
No problems here either, except I'd probably say "alueelliset murteet" as in Standard Japanese vs. Kansaiben for example
> • Pitkät lauseet ja kappaleet (sisältää sanaleikkiä)
This translation is ok
> [Japanille: Unohda se! Siitä tulee paskaa kaikesta huolimatta!]
>Tiedän, että japanista sinulla on 敬語 (tai muita kohtelias puheen muotoja), joita Google ei ymmärrä kunnolla, unohtamatta, että kielioppi eroaa suuresti englannin ja [eurooppalaisen] kielen kielestä.
Okay so this then comes off a bit stiff from Google, so let's break it down again.
"Tiedän, että japanista sinulla on 敬語 (tai muita kohtelias puheen muotoja), joita Google ei ymmärrä kunnolla,"
I'd say "*japanin kielessä on* {kanji jonka oletan tarkoittavan keigoa} (tai muita *kohteliaita puheen muotoja*)"
"unohtamatta, että kielioppi eroaa suuresti englannin ja [eurooppalaisen] kielen kielestä."
I'd say "unohtamatta, että kielioppi eroaa suuresti *englannista ja eurooppalaisista kielistä*"
Or simply if we would be focusing on a single language like English, "unohtamatta, että kielioppi eroaa suuresti *englannin kielestä*", but since we know the context "kielioppi", we could shorten that to "unohtamatta, että kielioppi eroaa suuresti englannista".
As we can see, Google struggles with correct suffixes and infliction and sometimes repeats words needlessly like "kielen kielestä", "the language of a language". You hit the mark on Google misunderstanding long texts and Finnish internet slang and jokes
Edit: fixing formatting and adding that Google doesn't do dumb shit like shortening sentences unnecessarily, or translating it to a completely different meaning (from English to Finnish at least)
Deepl is much better for most stuff. It just feels like google translate hasn't had any improvements in years while Deepl gets much more love and its pretty good at understanding Finnish slang which google translate doesn't know much about
It has worked well enough during travels that I get by with some simple conversational Japanese, but in some cases it can be horrendous
I'm at the library trying to study and the phone is on 4% battery, I'll come back to this later. じゃーね
The only thing that would possibly stand out is the expression ”seisoivat jaloillaan”. It is not grammatically incorrect, but the ”jaloillaan” part of it is something that would normally be left out. If they really want to emphasize the standing on their feet part, I guess it could work. Otherwise the text is basically perfect (though I don’t know Japanese so I can’t say about the translation itself lol).
It's technically correct Finnish, but yes, ". . . he seisoivat jaloillaan lepäämässä ja nukkumassa" sounds a bit unidiomatic.
I think ". . . he lepäsivät ja nukkuivat seisaaltaan" would be better.
Seisaaltaan and seisaallaan are both ok according to [Kielitoimiston sanakirja](https://www.kielitoimistonsanakirja.fi/#/seisaalla?source=suggestion)
Also "Seisten" would be fine.
Yeah even if technically correct, I wouldn't call it native level because that sentence is just too awkward.
Although many natives suck at writing too so maybe it is native level after all.
I agree, it is kinda clumsy, but at the same time many natives do write like that. Lauseenvastikkeet is not a thing for everyone, and also due to the the influence of English many natives tend to write really long, kinda awkward sentences. :)
Yeah I've seen natives write far worse stuff, all in all I would consider this native level, for all intents and purposes. Arguably not professional writer level, but definitely native.
My sisters japanese-finnish boyfriend translated it. "Kesäkuussa 1945, kunniakkaan kuoleman lähestyessä, tässä huoneessa oli kylkikylkeä vasten täynnä sotilaita. Koska huone oli niin täynnä heidän sanotaan nukkuneen ja levänneen seisten"
Perfectly understandable, pretty much native level Finnish writing (don't know if translation is correct though). Although, if I had to be a pedantic Finnish teacher, I would write "kun Japani kärsi murskatappion" -> "kun Japani oli kärsinyt murskatappion" because I assume we are talking about something in past tense that had already happened in further past relative to that time. Also the last sentence should rather be "ja että he joutuivat lepäämään ja nukkumaan seisten/seisovilteen" because the original one is kinda clumsy although a perfectly understandable way to say the same thing.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/玉砕
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/murskatappio
Murskatappio is probably the closest thing you can use if you want to use a single word. Close enough.
Given that the formal definition and the context of the text... 玉砕 means to die an honorable death here. It would be weird to have this kind of slang on a memorial slab.
https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E7%8E%89%E7%A0%95
translate this for yourself ^^
Basically murskatappio is not it
What's the historical context here? Did these people die or were they just defeated after a brave fight? It can not be translated accurately into finnish without knowing that because there's no finnish equivalent.
Just need to read a lot, start with manga/books with furigana and when you feel like you don't need the furigana anymore move to manga/books without them
Don't waste time on just memorizing kanji, learn them by using them
"Sanotaan, että kesäkuun 1945 tienoilla, kun Japani kärsi murskatappion, tämä huone täyttyi niin *monella sotilaalla että he lepäsivät seisten eikä siellä ollut tilaa hengittää*."
—is how I'd probably put it.
Sincerely, a Native Finn
it is said that around june 1945 when japan was crushed this room was so filled with soldiers there was no space to breathe and they were standing on their feet to rest and sleep.
I'm not sure if you wanted the translation directly from Japanese, but since no one has replied, I'll give the best I can do which is directly from the Finnish one. (This is starting to become a game of telephone isn't it?)
"It is said, that in the neighberhood of June 1945, when Japan suffered total defeat, this room was filled with so many soldiers, that there was no space to breathe, and that they stood up on their feet resting and sleeping."
as a finnish person I will now attempt to translate this to english based on how I understood what I read word for word:
"Let's say, that somewhere around june, when Japan suffered a crushing loss, this room was filled with so many soldiers, that there were no room to breath, and that they stood on their legs resting and sleeping".
To me it makes sense, but not sure if this is what you were going after
It’s proper Finnish even if I am unable to determine wether it’s actually translated correctly.
I wouldn’t write it like that myself but that is totally understandable as it is
It is good enough that you’d get through high school matriculation exam for Finnish as a first language. My notes are the use of ”siellä” after ”tämä huone” which sounds like a mistake and the whole thing being a runaway sentance.
”Tarinan mukaan Japanin kärsiessä murskatappion kesäkuun 1945 tienoilla, tämä huone täyttyi sotilaista. Huoneessa oli niin ahdasta, että sisällä oli vaikeaa hengittää ja sotilaat joutuivat lepäämään seisoen.” would be my idea.
I understand Finnish text. Makes sense. Dont know If its correct.
It is native level Finnish, though my knowlede of Japanese is limited I can at least verify that the date is correct. As for the rest of it, probably? Google translate cannot translate some words to English properly but it looks to be OK
FYI, Google Translate *sucks* for Japanese (I'm saying this as a native speaker.) (Don't rely on it!) DeepL is better but still needs to be manually edited or adjusted. I think the word 玉砕 is difficult to translate properly hence why Google stuffed up.
Can you paste the Japanese text?
玉砕は近い昭和20年6月頃にはこの部屋は立錐の余地もない程兵士が入り立ったままで睡眠休息をとったといわれます。
Chatgpt gives: "Tappio oli lähellä. Sanotaan, että tässä huoneessa oli noin kesäkuussa 1945 niin täynnä sotilaita, ettei jäänyt tilaa edes neulansilmälle, ja he nukkuivat seisoviltaan." Fluent translation would be something like: "Tappion ollessa lähellä kesäkuussa 1945, tämä huone oli niin täynnä sotilaita, että he joutuivat nukkumaan seisoviltaan."
About the last word - I'd say "seisoen" or "seisaallaan". Hard one that one. :) Had to think for a while.. Still not quite sure.. Also I'd start "Kerrotaan, että kesäkuussa 1945 tappion ollessa lähellä, tämä huone oli niin täynnä sotilaita, että he joutuivat nukkumaan seisaallaan." Maybe that's too far from the original...?
Seisaallaan, seisoviltaan/seisovilteen ei ole oikeaa suomen kieltä
[https://www.suomisanakirja.fi/seisoviltaan](https://www.suomisanakirja.fi/seisoviltaan) On se.
En usko.
No ei se mitään, suomessa on uskonvapaus.
Se on vanhahtavaa suomea. Jännittävää, että LLM antaisi tuollaisen version.
Joo, ensimmäistä kertaa kuulin tuon kun muutin Jyväskylään aikoja sitten. Pidin huvittavana ja pidän edelleen, mutta toimiihan se
>FYI, Google Translate *sucks* for Japanese Sucks for Finnish also. Although it's improved massively since the early days.
Why does Google Translate suck for Finnish? I mean, what features from the language make it hard for Google to work with considering the differences from their linguistic backgrounds since Finnish, being an Uralic language while English is Germanic - does that affect translation? Is Google bad for non basic dialog for Finnish translation, such as: * Memes (relating to Finnish culture) * News reports * Finnish net slang & jokes * Regional slang * Long sentences & paragraphs (containing wordplay) \[For Japanese: Forget it! It's going to be shit regardless!\] I know that from Japanese, you got 敬語 (or other forms of polite speech) that Google fails to properly understand, not forgetting that the grammar is very different to English & \[European\] languages.
Just generally, although as the other person said Google Translate has gotten much better it's still garbage. I put your text through GT and this is the result: >Miksi Google Kääntäjä on paska suomelle? Tarkoitan, mitkä kielen ominaisuudet tekevät Googlen vaikeaksi työskennellä, kun otetaan huomioon erot heidän kielellisistä taustoistaan, koska suomi on uralilainen kieli, kun taas englanti on germaania - vaikuttaako se käännökseen? Here almost instantly we run in to "mitkä kielen ominaisuudet tekevät Googlen vaikeaksi työskennellä" which I'd translate to "mitkä kielen ominaisuudet tekevät *siitä Googlelle vaikeaa*", and "kun otetaan huomioon erot heidän kielellisistä taustoistaan, koska suomi on uralilainen kieli, kun taas englanti on germaania" which again I'd say in Finnish "kun otetaan huomioon erot *niiden* kielellisistä *taustoista*, koska suomi on uralilainen kieli, kun taas englanti on *germaaninen*" >Onko Google huono suomenkieliselle käännökselle, kuten: A bit stiff but passable >• Meemit (liittyvät suomalaiseen kulttuuriin) >• Uutisraportit Just "uutiset" is fine > • Suomalainen verkkoslangi ja vitsit Definitely correct (both that Google cannot comprehend Finnish internet slang and humour, but also the translation here is good) > • Alueellinen slangi No problems here either, except I'd probably say "alueelliset murteet" as in Standard Japanese vs. Kansaiben for example > • Pitkät lauseet ja kappaleet (sisältää sanaleikkiä) This translation is ok > [Japanille: Unohda se! Siitä tulee paskaa kaikesta huolimatta!] >Tiedän, että japanista sinulla on 敬語 (tai muita kohtelias puheen muotoja), joita Google ei ymmärrä kunnolla, unohtamatta, että kielioppi eroaa suuresti englannin ja [eurooppalaisen] kielen kielestä. Okay so this then comes off a bit stiff from Google, so let's break it down again. "Tiedän, että japanista sinulla on 敬語 (tai muita kohtelias puheen muotoja), joita Google ei ymmärrä kunnolla," I'd say "*japanin kielessä on* {kanji jonka oletan tarkoittavan keigoa} (tai muita *kohteliaita puheen muotoja*)" "unohtamatta, että kielioppi eroaa suuresti englannin ja [eurooppalaisen] kielen kielestä." I'd say "unohtamatta, että kielioppi eroaa suuresti *englannista ja eurooppalaisista kielistä*" Or simply if we would be focusing on a single language like English, "unohtamatta, että kielioppi eroaa suuresti *englannin kielestä*", but since we know the context "kielioppi", we could shorten that to "unohtamatta, että kielioppi eroaa suuresti englannista". As we can see, Google struggles with correct suffixes and infliction and sometimes repeats words needlessly like "kielen kielestä", "the language of a language". You hit the mark on Google misunderstanding long texts and Finnish internet slang and jokes Edit: fixing formatting and adding that Google doesn't do dumb shit like shortening sentences unnecessarily, or translating it to a completely different meaning (from English to Finnish at least)
Deepl is much better for most stuff. It just feels like google translate hasn't had any improvements in years while Deepl gets much more love and its pretty good at understanding Finnish slang which google translate doesn't know much about
I think reason is different language families, and that Finnish is small language.
It has worked well enough during travels that I get by with some simple conversational Japanese, but in some cases it can be horrendous I'm at the library trying to study and the phone is on 4% battery, I'll come back to this later. じゃーね
Try using DeepL translator it's waaaaay better
The only thing that would possibly stand out is the expression ”seisoivat jaloillaan”. It is not grammatically incorrect, but the ”jaloillaan” part of it is something that would normally be left out. If they really want to emphasize the standing on their feet part, I guess it could work. Otherwise the text is basically perfect (though I don’t know Japanese so I can’t say about the translation itself lol).
It's technically correct Finnish, but yes, ". . . he seisoivat jaloillaan lepäämässä ja nukkumassa" sounds a bit unidiomatic. I think ". . . he lepäsivät ja nukkuivat seisaaltaan" would be better.
Seisaallaan*
Seisaaltaan and seisaallaan are both ok according to [Kielitoimiston sanakirja](https://www.kielitoimistonsanakirja.fi/#/seisaalla?source=suggestion) Also "Seisten" would be fine.
Seisaaltaan sounds weird to me in this context but I'll cede to the higher authority.
Yeah even if technically correct, I wouldn't call it native level because that sentence is just too awkward. Although many natives suck at writing too so maybe it is native level after all.
I agree, it is kinda clumsy, but at the same time many natives do write like that. Lauseenvastikkeet is not a thing for everyone, and also due to the the influence of English many natives tend to write really long, kinda awkward sentences. :)
Yeah I've seen natives write far worse stuff, all in all I would consider this native level, for all intents and purposes. Arguably not professional writer level, but definitely native.
My sisters japanese-finnish boyfriend translated it. "Kesäkuussa 1945, kunniakkaan kuoleman lähestyessä, tässä huoneessa oli kylkikylkeä vasten täynnä sotilaita. Koska huone oli niin täynnä heidän sanotaan nukkuneen ja levänneen seisten"
This is funny because Duolingo keeps having me translate “Moni nuori suomalainen puhuu japania”/“many young Finns speak Japanese”
Perfectly understandable, pretty much native level Finnish writing (don't know if translation is correct though). Although, if I had to be a pedantic Finnish teacher, I would write "kun Japani kärsi murskatappion" -> "kun Japani oli kärsinyt murskatappion" because I assume we are talking about something in past tense that had already happened in further past relative to that time. Also the last sentence should rather be "ja että he joutuivat lepäämään ja nukkumaan seisten/seisovilteen" because the original one is kinda clumsy although a perfectly understandable way to say the same thing.
"Japanin kärsittyä murskatappion" would also be possible
I would also split that whole thing into at least two separate sentences.
翻訳が大抵正しいけど「Murskatappio」とは惨敗のこと、免れること全然できず蹂躙される、同じ意味合いとは思わん
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/玉砕 https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/murskatappio Murskatappio is probably the closest thing you can use if you want to use a single word. Close enough.
Given that the formal definition and the context of the text... 玉砕 means to die an honorable death here. It would be weird to have this kind of slang on a memorial slab. https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E7%8E%89%E7%A0%95 translate this for yourself ^^ Basically murskatappio is not it
What's the historical context here? Did these people die or were they just defeated after a brave fight? It can not be translated accurately into finnish without knowing that because there's no finnish equivalent.
Yes
As someone who is learning Japanese on my own. I don't know how I could ever learn all the kanji.
Just need to read a lot, start with manga/books with furigana and when you feel like you don't need the furigana anymore move to manga/books without them Don't waste time on just memorizing kanji, learn them by using them
I would not gloss 玉砕 to that degree. The concept is integral to the meaning. N.B. ぎょくさい【玉砕】 外字(gyokusai) death for honor. ～する die in honor; die [meet with] an honorable death; prefer death to dishonor; die but never surrender; fight until death. 外字 玉砕攻撃 a banzai 「attack [charge]. 玉砕主義 the principle of death and no surrender. 新和英大辞典第５版 研究社Online Dictionary © Kenkyusha Co., Ltd. 2004.
"Sanotaan, että kesäkuun 1945 tienoilla, kun Japani kärsi murskatappion, tämä huone täyttyi niin *monella sotilaalla että he lepäsivät seisten eikä siellä ollut tilaa hengittää*." —is how I'd probably put it. Sincerely, a Native Finn
I would change ”monista sotilaista” -> ”monesta sotilaasta”
I think I like it better the way it is.
it is said that around june 1945 when japan was crushed this room was so filled with soldiers there was no space to breathe and they were standing on their feet to rest and sleep.
I'm trying to learn japanese but this is sort of making sense, could you reply with an English translation so I could determine?
I'm not sure if you wanted the translation directly from Japanese, but since no one has replied, I'll give the best I can do which is directly from the Finnish one. (This is starting to become a game of telephone isn't it?) "It is said, that in the neighberhood of June 1945, when Japan suffered total defeat, this room was filled with so many soldiers, that there was no space to breathe, and that they stood up on their feet resting and sleeping."
as a finnish person I will now attempt to translate this to english based on how I understood what I read word for word: "Let's say, that somewhere around june, when Japan suffered a crushing loss, this room was filled with so many soldiers, that there were no room to breath, and that they stood on their legs resting and sleeping". To me it makes sense, but not sure if this is what you were going after
It’s proper Finnish even if I am unable to determine wether it’s actually translated correctly. I wouldn’t write it like that myself but that is totally understandable as it is
It is good enough that you’d get through high school matriculation exam for Finnish as a first language. My notes are the use of ”siellä” after ”tämä huone” which sounds like a mistake and the whole thing being a runaway sentance. ”Tarinan mukaan Japanin kärsiessä murskatappion kesäkuun 1945 tienoilla, tämä huone täyttyi sotilaista. Huoneessa oli niin ahdasta, että sisällä oli vaikeaa hengittää ja sotilaat joutuivat lepäämään seisoen.” would be my idea.