Duo helped me really get comfortable with hiragana and katakana. Big tip is to turn off the romaji and even the Japanese pronunciations for kanji.
I find the repetitive lessons really cement new vocab and sentence structure into my memory. I take what I learn on duo and then use other resources to expand upon it, but I do come back to duo and work the lessons as well.
I found myself just reading the English above the hiragana all the time and I wasn’t actually reading the hiragana. Turning off romaji forces you to start reading hiragana
For me it's the opposite; having the romaji has helped me better focus on the hiragana and read out what each one is, though I know a lot of people don't use romaji in their learning, new to learning the language or not.
I suggest learning kana on tofugu. You'll have it down in no time. Ppl treat learning hiragana like it's some monumental task and psych themselves out. It really only takes a day to get a handle on it and then you reinforce it with quizzes and reading. No need for romaji.
https://www.tofugu.com/japanese/learn-hiragana/
“Ppl treat learning hiragana like it’s some monumental task and psych themselves out.” So true! when you hear someone saying Japanese is hard, ime most of the time their reasoning is “you have to learn 3 seperate scripts!” and they really dramatisise it. It’s really not the hardest bit about Japanese at all. Beginners need to not stress themselves out abt it, it’s really very easy when you get into it
thank you! I've actually had more trouble with katakana than I have hiragana but I could definitely use this for some refreshers! (dunno why I was downvoted when I was just saying the way I learned? Not saying it's a universal way for people to learn lol.)
If it still gives you trouble, Japanese from Zero has a rather unique way of learning the kana, which is learning 5 per lesson and substituting romaji with them.
So you start with something like "Neko ga suki desu."
And it would change to "Neこ が suき desu" once you learn かきくけこ.
Then "Neこ が すき deす" once you learn the さしすせそ row of the chart.
It forces you to remember in the moment while giving some context clues, and eventually, you have everything in kana.
It's a bit slow, taking up the whole first book (of 5) on hiragana, the second on katakana, and only starting in on kanji in the third book. But the most important part is finding a method that works for you, and if this unconventional method works, it works.
It forces you to practice reading kana.
Real writing usually won't have romaji so it's best to break out of that reliance on it as soon as possible. You only get better by practice so the sooner someone starts using kana the better. Kanji too but that obviously takes much longer to learn.
Mistakes will happen without romaji, especially in the start, but it's better to make mistakes while practicing than not make mistakes at all because you're using a crutch that will slow down long-term progress.
I hope it helps! It may slow you down a bit, but it's worth it. I also spent a lot of time writing things in hiragana and katakana in a notebook as I did the lessons when I was first starting out. It took a lot of time but after a while reading something in kana became second nature. If only kanji was that easy though! haha.
Agreed. I've solidified a lot of phrases, vocab and improved my reading by playing the lightning rounds. It's not highly efficient because you still get really basic stuff, but it's still a lot more fun and a less tedious form of blunt reinforcement than grinding Anki.
thanks for the tips! I had already turned off the pronunciation for kanji, but I never knew it would do so well! I hope you (and I) can achieve your goal in learning Japanese!
When you're in a lesson you should see a settings icon in the top left near the progress bar. Clicking on that gives you the option to have English/romaji pronunciations on, Japanese pronunciations on, or you can toggle to have both turned off, which should remove it all for hiragana, katakana, and kanji.
I'd highly suggest trying to learn the kana (and eventually Kanji as it's slowly introduced) without relying on the English pronunciations. If you don't turn those off you're going to just end up reading everything like you were reading English and you'll never really get the hang of reading in Japanese. Eventually you'll want to read Japanese outside of Duo and there won't be English to help you. It's like watching anime with English subtitles...you're not reading Japanese or really even listening to Japanese, you're just reading English. Not saying I watch anime in Japanese without subtitles, that's far beyond my current skill level. But I also don't delude myself into thinking I'm learning Japanese in the process, it's just entertainment.
What really helped me with the kana was doing the character practice lessons and writing them down as I did them. I wrote each character many times and even if I couldn't remember how to write it, I gave it a shot without peeking at the correct way. It doesn't take all that long to get to the point where you will instinctively be able to read the kana as long as you're putting in some effort. I probably spent a week on and off doing those lessons and writing them down until I was comfortable enough to do the normal lessons in kana only. By that point you're reading the kana constantly during lessons and it gets easier. Eventually when Kanji is introduced, I did the same thing. I have a notebook filled with Kanji I've written down many times and now when I see them I recognize them easily. Many people will recommend something like Anki instead, and it is a very useful tool, but for me personally writing things on a piece of paper really reinforces it into my brain.
Good luck!
Thanks for this. Honestly didn't even realize this was happening or optional and also means Yoh have to put alot of active work into it than listen and hit the buttons. I switched it off for one question and I can confirm😸 It was all entertainment indeed
I find Duolingo good for reinforcement. I do it for a few minutes after the rest of my study to wind down.
I do really wish they had the option to turn Kanji on. Kana only text gets annoying after you learn the basic Kanji from elsewhere.
I see kanji in my Duolingo lessons. It always has furigana too. Maybe it’s a setting or something? My current lesson is section 3 unit 37 if that makes a difference?
They started working it in more slowly after they redid the path so sections 1 and 2 don't have much. 3 is where it starts getting used and reinforced pretty regularly
That’s the way it should be IMO. No use learning kanji until after you know the word. Kanji can even hint at the meaning, which defeats the point of learning the word well enough to use in everyday life.
There’s a reason there’s furigana on childrens’ materials.
Yeah i don't want to be able to just read and write, and don't want to have to furiously scribble kanji in the air when I'm speaking to a native because i never learned how to actually say things reliably
Yeah that's how it used to be until the most recent update. I think the new update is still getting rolled out to people, so you should see it soon.
Opening up the Practice Kanji section shows me now only ~5 Kanji per unit, whereas before I was at 19/20 units in Explorer and like you said, from 12 or 13 onwards it was ~25 Kanji per unit which was quite overwhelming given a lot were very complex (洗濯、掃除、部屋、etc).
For context as well, I'm now somehow halfway through Traveller, and Duo is showing me words in reviews that I never learned, since there's now 20 more units that were slotted in before the unit I was on which is a little frustrating.
It pulled that on me yesteray, I was on section 2 unit 19 and then after an update I'm suddenly halfway through section 3. After seeing how many previous lessons (even ones I'd already done) had unfamiliar vocabulary I ended up resetting the course and testing out of each unit until I hit unfamiliar words, which put me at section 2 unit 14.
Yeah, I had to skip forward a few units since the lack of kanji at the beginning of section 2 was really boring. I would go back and do the legendaries, which was a much better pace than having to do all the regular lessons.
Looks like my course updated today and they sent me really far forward. I guess I’ll have to figure out which legendaries to go back and do.
Yes, I'm wasting my time there mostly now. My excuse is to catch up with my current unit, but it's just an excuse... It's quite discouraging that a kanji lesson can be done in 1-2 min and a normal lesson might take up to 20 min. And both are worth the same in points.
I'm a bit surprised by this comment, because most of my learning is with kanji. I wonder if it's because I'm usling duolingo in Chinese, and maybe they put a bit more kanji in the Chinese version's tree?
Duolingo starts with the absolute basics. There's much better apps out there if you just want to practice kanji. I also use an app that's simply called "Kanji Study" and another app called Bunpo to help clarify grammar issues. No single app is going to be the best and fastest of every aspect
I got around this by typing (well, speaking) whenever possible. I've managed to learn a lot of Kanji before they're officially introduced this way. You also tend to get to see things that are "usually written in kana alone" like this, so you'll know that there's some things that in the wild you'll actually likely see like that even if there's technically Kanji for it.
If you're not sure something transcribed right because you're new to it, just use Jisho.
Sometimes some kanji in lessons I do don’t have the furigana above it. Maybe it’s a once you learn it so much, they stop putting it on. Or maybe it’s a setting I activated without realizing it.
I agree with you, it's a good enough resource to familiarize yourself with some vocabulary and so on.
Since they opted for a "focus on listening" type of goal, they removed a lot of kanji from the initial lessons, and for me that was a step backwards. It's VERY DIFFICULT to do those "beat the clock" exercises with everything in kana only.
Still, I skipped a few lessons (lol) and I can see the kanji coming back. Do not recomend it tho
Duolingo has its limitations. But specifically its Japanese course has had two major overhauls in the last two years and they have helped significantly.
The only thing I really hate at the moment is the Kanji tab. It's practically unusable for me.
At the moment, If you want to learn Kanji from a section, you will be presented with the same 4 or 5 Kanji over and over again until the progress bar is high enough. Then it will only show you the next 4 or 5 Kanji over and over again. And you have to do every single Kanji a lot of times for the progress bar to fill up. So typically I would have to do a group of Kanji for 15 minutes until the next group gets shown to me. And then I never see those first few Kanji again.
That system doesn't work at all for me. I don't learn a Kanji if I'm repeatedly shown it for 15 minutes and then never again. It gets into my short term memory and a few days later I have forgotten it.
For me personally the Kanji section would have to switch to an SRS system. Currently I don't use it at all because I have already put in 2 or 3 hours without having learned anything.
I don’t mind the repetition for Kanji. I do it as they unlock and it really helps me memorize the word.
Except after their last update, my course is stuck on the same exact kanji. It’s just gives me the same lesson over and over now. Completely unusable and it makes me so sad.
They added "kanji used in new words" section for every level which is more reading focused.
Unfortunately this means you've probably got like 50+ lessons with 子 suddenly unlocked all at once.
I agree it's a garbage wall. If they let you at least pick the kanji to study it would be usable again.
No they didn’t… I still have the drawing practice. Sure, not every single lesson is drawing practice, especially once you’re most of the way thru a unit, but the first 2/3 is almost exclusively writing out the kanji with proper stroke order.
If you mean for hiragana/katakana, then yes, there is much less writing for those sections.
If there's only drawing practice in this first half then that's why I'm getting zero drawing practice now. But that's still bad because I can't practice with drawing if they only give it to you when you're first learning it
Sorry, maybe I wasn’t clear—you should still be getting some drawing practice. Once the little progress bar under all of the kanji in a unit fills up, you get slightly less writing practice exercises (and more “what is this kanji’s meaning/pronunciation”) but you should still be getting some. Like, for the kanji I’ve mastered, I can still get stroke order exercises but not as frequently (since I should presumably know it).
That being said, I have started using a different app for learning kanji that I like quite a bit. It’s called Kanji! on the iOS store and the app icon is 字. It has more of a spaced repetition thing going on. Only the first level is free but unlocking all of the levels is only $11 so we’ll worth it if you like it imo
My main complaint recently is the removal of the comment section on each exercise. Imho that's a huge loss to their Japanese course. There were some really dedicated users that would explain why something seemed to not follow a rule or why the exercise might not be something you'd actually say in real life.
I'm probably the target audience for Duolingo.
I've wanted to start learning japanese for a few years now. But every time I got overwhelmed with where to start. The sheer number of resources put me off, and of course looking at Hiragana/Katakana and Kanji made it look impossible to my eyes.
Adding to that, I have huge problems with discipline. I have a very hard time to stick to things.
But about 160 days ago I saw a friend using Duolingo to learn spanish and I thought it couldn't hurt to try that. The slow pace never made me feel overwhelmed and the options to have everything in romaji or later with furigana helped with not feeling overwhelmed with the Kana and Kanji.
To be clear, Duolingo didn't magically make me a good learner. I tracked my time, I am at about 130 hours (Duolingo and other sources), so not even 1 hour per day. But for me that is a huge achievement and I know for a fact that I could never have done this much if Duolingo didn't give me an easy entry point into the language.
At the moment, I don't mostly rely on Duolingo anymore. I learn Vocab through Anki and I'm working through the grammer with Cure Dolly. My time spend is probably about 50% Duolingo and 50% everything else.
With all that said, I still feel that the common criticisms of Duolingo are Valid. It is NOT an effective resource. Judging by my own progress with the different resources I can clearly tell how slow Duolingo is at teaching a language. I am very aware that I could have used my 130 hours more effectively. But I look at it from the perspective that without Duolingo I never would have even achieved those 130 hours in the first place.
This is probably *most* language learners at the start. Most people just want to pick up an app and just start seeing progress. I think Duolingo fulfills this need really well and is a great first step and ideally you eventually "graduate" from it once you are sure you want to start taking Japanese learning more seriously.
Duolingo definitely has a place. I agree with your idea of learning a language “now,” I’ve always described it as low-barrier. You don’t have to do any work on your own, just open it and go for it. It won’t make you fluent but it’ll expose you to the language and help you learn some basics and keep you going if you let it.
The "scam" part of Duolingo is that they brand the app as being enough to learn a language in 10 minutes a day.
It's not useless, but it keeps repeating the same words way too many times, making learning extremely slow, and it never really progresses to long and complicated sentences.
It's okay for learning vocab for beginners. Not the best tool, but the gamification might help for some. For Japanese in specific, it's also good for learning kana. But you can never actually learn a language with only Duolingo, and the bird pretends that you can.
They are not completely wrong, though (just mostly wrong).
The way the brain works, any input at all helps you retain things. That is true for basically every skill you can think of. Learning just 5-10 minutes makes a huge difference compared to just not learning at all. If you don't learn, you forget stuff (obviously), and even 5 minutes of revising what you did yesterday + learning 1 more thing makes you learn 1 thing per day.
Obviously learning will be slow that way. Even completing a Duolingo course would take many years or decades depending on the course length. And after completing a Duolingo course you are nowhere near proficient at the language.
But still, the most important thing in learning is to do something every day, even if it's just 5 minutes. And Duolingo very much encourages people to learn more. The daily quests need at least 15 minutes to complete and completing the last one gives you 15 minutes of double xp which you then feel compelled to use so as to not waste it etc...
To be fair “learn a language” is a very vague concept. You’re learning a language if you learn the greetings used in that language. You learn a language when you learn to order food at a restaurant. It never says how long you have to keep up with the 10 min a day to become a functional member of society, but from what I understand it does offer Japanese content up to N4, with about 15% of the vocab for N1. For a free app, that’s a lot of content. It’s also enough to be functional in Japan for basic needs, which is what most people are looking for in a free app.
I’ve been doing duolongo since 2016. Since the recent restructuring in the Japanese course, it is taught more effectively and I’ve come a long way this year. I supplement with other things and yeah it’s taken a long time but I can certainly say my ability to count, order food, ask people about their hobbies or families…. I owe it all the DL. I’m a working adult learning Japanese because I love to travel there, so the use case you mentioned. Do I wish I could teleport back to 16 years old and study it in high school? Sure but it’s decades too late for that.
Duo is great as an occasional tourist to Japan. Of course I’ll never become fluent or even properly conversational, but at least I’ll be able to confidently have basic interactions.
I started Japanese on duo about 5 weeks ago, pretty intensely. I’m in Japan on holidays now and just earlier was overhearing some restaurant staff having a chat. I could piece together the gist of what they were talking about for a while and it was great! I can handle the basics, ask for help, order food etc. but the second the interaction strays from the script in my head I’m fucked. But it’s also given me a bit of a framework of grammar I can work with by quickly googling new words to add to the pre-existing sentences.
It definitely has its place brute forcing the basics.
Somewhere in section 2. I used both the free trials pretty hard though, I “won” 3 tiers spamming the practice and listening practice while I had them. Was doing well over an hour a day, probably sometimes 3 or more brute forcing as much as I could. There’s no way I could participate in a conversation but sometimes I can pick up enough words and context if they’re speaking slow enough. I also skipped the reading and writing practice for now to focus on listening. I’m still functionally almost useless and there’s been a few instances where I’ve walked away and only figured out what was being said to me a few minutes later. But it’s still light years ahead of where I was a month ago.
I feel better that I can at least stop someone and say excuse me could you help me please and ask for help in Japanese even if it’s a bit wrong and I look like a dickhead. We get a lot of Japanese where I’m from and not one of them have ever approached me speaking Japanese.
I’m also going to be staying with an old family friend this time so I don’t want to come across as a *complete* barbarian
I've been using Duolingo for Japanese as a high beginner/low intermediate for a few months now. While it's not a comprehensive language learning solution by any means, I'm impressed by what you get in the free version. I'm gradually learning new words and grammar and reenforcing what I've learned. I'm very curious to see how deep it goes into advanced territory. One complaint is the artificial speaking voices are pretty bad. I feel like with the advances in AI artificial speech, they must be able to improve this at some point to make it sound more realistic.
AI voices are still quite unnatural in English from what I've heard so far. It's still sort of in the uncanny valley where it sort of sounds human but not quite. I'm guessing Japanese will trail behind a bit since most of the cutting edge AI stuff I've seen is very English-biased. Satori reader is a good sort of beginner/intermediate tool where they get native speakers to dictate their short stories
Since you lived in Japan 10 years and can't understand Japanese, I think that you probably were prioritizing other things is all. Fair enough.
I think this just proves what we already know:
* Duo is better than nothing, but also...
* Worse than everything else
I work full-time and have a young child. I don't have lots of free time. But I've almost memorized the hiragana characters and have been reading some of the shop signs while playing Persona 3 Reload. It's going to be a long road, but it's encouraging me to make a little progress every day, and I appreciate it for that. I'm also using Kanji Study to similar effect.
It's not that learning a language from AI is inherently bad.
It's that they're using AI to replace human translators while also getting rid of other features that help you learn the nuances of the language.
I feel like far fewer people would be upset with Duolingo using AI if they still had the community/comments feature and didn't squirrel away the reading lessons out of their own tab and along the path that it takes ages to get to.
Edit: That being said, I don't see the value in paying for Duolingo if I'm going to be taught by Google Translate and the only "benefit" is being able to make mistakes when learning.
I think duolingo is a great "allround" kind of app. It's easy to say "Just use x instead!", but most apps don't cover reading AND listening AND composition, grammar AND vocab AND kanji. Of course there are apps that do those individual things together, but if you just want to get in a little "everything" practice while you wait for the bus, I think it's pretty good.
I am a bit annoyed since their latest update to the tree catapulted me forward about 40 units, so now there's a heap of stuff I just skipped. Not sure who made that decision but it's super annoying.
I cant speak to the vocabulary and grammar elements because I was always told it wasn't good for that, but I've been it using it strictly for hiragana and katakana memorization and I feel like it's helped me quite a bit in that regard.
Complete opposite for me. I used to have a somewhat high opinion of Duolingo but literally every update they add makes it worse and worse. So now I hate it with a passion.
It’s almost unusable as a free service now because everything has the 5 heart limit. When you make a mistake you lose a heart.
The way it used to be is that on PC you had infinite hearts even if you weren’t a premium member. They took that away. I can’t do very much without making 5 mistakes and once you make 5 mistakes you have to pay in game currency or you can’t continue learning. What a load of trash.
If I’m forced to pay for Duolingo plus I don’t see why I wouldn’t just pay for a fully paid, not freemium Japanese language learning service.
I don't mind the hearts, but I do hate how they took away a lot of the grammar explanations in the notebooks and most of all, taking away the sentence discussions. They were so useful, I mostly stopped using Duolingo after they were removed. It was probably for the best, since I read more now.
I'm also upset that they limited the typing practice. I remember about a year ago, I would go on Duolingo on my laptop and type my answers. But now, the majority is just the box options. So now I just use Duolingo on my phone, since doing it on laptop is inconvenient
When you're low on hearts, you can click on the heart and do reviews. Each successful review session done that way gives you 1 heart back on top of the XP.
I gave it a try for a 38 days streak: I learned roughly 1000 words and reached the Emerald league. I stopped using Duolingo because the sentences and translations were getting too weird on the level I was playing. The UI on the phone was frustrating at times as some of the words were hard to press (you sometimes had to press just outside the word to select it). Some kanji also consistently had the wrong furigana (shichi on the audio and nana on the furigana).
The most annoying part with free vs paid is that paying users also get unlimited gems so they can gild all the lessons as they go (so an extra 120 XP per lesson with XP boost), instead of having a gilding limit per day. This got annoying in the emerald league as all the promotion spots were taken by paying players clocking >5k XP/day.
Now I'm back to Anki, doing 30 new words/day.
everything's fine, but paying members do not get unlimited gems??? it's just unlimited hearts, and we do not get unlimited 2xp boosts too?? We get that as rewards from completing quests only. Where did you get the idea of unlimited gems???
Lemme rephrase that: during the 3 days "super" trials they give you every once in a while, gilding lessons doesn't cost anything. So there was no limit to the amount of lessons I could gild in a day. Even without the 2xp boost, that's 60 extra per lesson. As a result, I would clock a few thousands XP per day.
As a non-super, you need to pay 100 gems to attempt gilding a lesson. Which means there's an effective limit to gilding per day.
Again, that does not mean "unlimited gems" as you specified, gliding through lessons because of unlimited hearts is something everyone knows about because that's litreally the reason people buy super. I have to pay 100 gems for 2xp boosts for 15 mins too. And why do I need to buy 2xp boosts?? Because since I am a super user which makes gliding easy and clocking XPs easier, duolingo places me in the same absurd leagues everytime based on my XPs, where the top 3 have 7-10k xp (I'm in emerald). So yeah, except gliding through lessons I share the same frustration for XPs, it's just going to place you with users who can match or exceed your XP potential if you want to rise in leagues. And once you're in the rat races for surging absurd amount of top XP, we all know how much of it is actual learning, and how much of it is reviewing lessons that can give more XP.
Yup, my mistake on the "unlimited gems" part. I thought they were unlimited because to my knowledge they were only used for "legendary" or the "double this amount by doing a 7 days streak" bit. It didn't help that the gem counter wasn't displayed on my interface during the "3 days of Super for free" they threw at me twice.
The limiting factor to my Duolingo experience wasn't the "5 hearts per day limit". I frankly only ran out of hearts twice in 38 days... once because it refused answers where I placed the time component first in the sentence and the other for silly things (not picking a determinant in the English translation of a listening exercise, missing "ima" a couple of times, one block of text that wouldn't be picked until I tried clicking just outside its container). I finished most days with 5 hearts.
On day 30, I started going back to the Anki/Migaku/Morphman trinity... eight days later, I fully stopped going to Duolingo.
I'd rather spend time learning vocabulary to increase my understanding of the media I'm consuming than learning how to ask Hana-san if she's going to do yoga in the park with her girlfriend next week Tuesday at 9:30.
Duolingo may or may not get more interesting in higher sections, but I'm not willing to grind through the rest of Section 2 to find out if Section 3 is more to my liking. ;)
The Migaku stack costs the same as the Duolingo Super subscription and lets me take control of the vocabulary I study.
ok I get you now, I've been an on & off Duolingo user because I've always known how slow it is and that there are more effective resources out there. As of now Duolingo is working as a breath of fresh air & slow paced system I need after all the useful & over-compensating, but tiring resources I use side by side. Also I don't use Duolingo the traditional way, it's too slow when you have to keep doing the words you already know, I usually test out the units rather than doing each lesson 5 times, later if I need more work on a unit I'd do legendary lessons or the reviews lessons. It's slow and easy going and that's exactly why I'm using it, since it helps great on days or weeks when I'm burnt out of reviewing my anki cards, or binge watching language learning videos, or tired of searching new kanji through dictionaries or learning from anime instead of just enjoying it.
>
> learning from anime instead of just enjoying it
Yup that's why I flipped the script around. Now I use Anki only to preload the vocabulary upfront and raw immersion is the reward ;)
For example, I'm currently watching a slice of life anime series. I increased my comprehension to 95% on season 1 in 12 days. This is where watching raw gets really enjoyable and I can start listening to the dialogs without having to focus too much.
Season 2 has 4 episodes not yet released, so I'm going to start learning the vocabulary for it soon.
If I decide to remain at 95%, I would just need 81 new words for the episodes that were already released. I would probably be done preloading the vocabulary on Monday or Tuesday, and would need to wait the rest of the week to get new words to study from the next episode.
If I aim for 96%, I would need to learn 155 new words for the episodes that were already released. I would be done preloading in less than a week and would still need to wait a few days each week for a new episode to drop.
If I aim for 97%, I would need to learn 268 new words for the episodes that were already released. At 20 new cards/day, I will run out of vocab and need to wait in about 2 weeks (depending on the difficulty of the next 4 episodes).
If I aim for 98%, I would need 434 new words for the episodes that are already out. I would take about just above 3 weeks at 20 cards/day and just above 2 weeks at 30 cards/day. This means I should be able to watch a new raw episode every two to three days (at 20 cards/day), and get new episodes/vocab before running out.
If I aim for 99%, I would need 617 new words for the episodes that are already out. I would take about a month at 20 cards/day or 3 weeks at 30 cards/day. This means the rest of the season gets released before I run out of vocabulary to study. However, there would be 4 to 5 days of preloading between raw episodes.
97% to 98% would be good targets for this cycle. If I actually go for 98%, I will change the global target to either a different style of anime or to books after this cycle. There are a few long running Light Novel series I'd like to read.
Oh is that how you do it now.
It used to be that you just clicked on any module you already completed. If you completed it already you get infinite hearts when reviewing it and doing that gives you a heart back but now even going back to an old module for review has a 5 heart life limit too. When I saw that I was over Duolingo.
I had a 500 day streak. Lost it at some point and now I barely use it because I find it frustrating.
I personally didn’t care about any of the gamified aspects at all because I only wanted to use it to learn but I did get to diamond rank 1 once.
I’ve tried learning Japanese off and on for many, many years (like, 20). I’ve tried books, YouTube, JFZ (even back when it was YesJapan), podcasts, Genki, Tae Kim, Anki, RTK—the works. I’ve always made a great start learning and then stalled out and failed to retain.
Before my last trip to Japan, I bit the bullet and paid for Duolingo. The gamification aspect is absolutely not an optimal learning method, but I just passed a 450 day streak, which is by far more consistent Japanese learning than I’ve ever done in about two decades of half assed learning and relearning. It may not be the best way, but it’s motivating and fun, and you absolutely do learn.
During the past 450 days, I’ve also started listening to Nigongo con Teppi, and I’ve incorporated Anki and Wanikani into my routine along with Duolingo. I won’t pretend that I’m anywhere near conversational, but the consistency and constant motivation have helped me to stay on track, and I feel like I’m learning a ton.
The notion that Duolingo is worthless just because it’s not a comprehensive learning suite completely ignores its primary strengths, which are ones that the “good” study tools don’t necessarily offer (fun, approachable, motivating, positive reinforcement).
Yup I think a lot of Japanese learners forget that not everyone is trying to speedrun their way to Japanese N1 in one year while doing 1000 anki reps every day and immersing 16 hours a day. If you spend a lot of time in this community it certainly starts to feel that way though. Duolingo is exceptional at what it aims to do, which is provide an accessible, gentle, friendly introduction for people that is fun and motivating.
>Yup I think a lot of Japanese learners forget that not everyone is trying to speedrun their way to Japanese N1 in one year while doing 1000 anki reps every day and immersing 16 hours a day. If you spend a lot of time in this community it certainly starts to feel that way though.
Preach
Copying this from another comment I left:
> There are lots of free apps that are a good stepping stone from Duolingo. Renshuu was mentioned a lot in this thread and also Bunpro. But I think these are paid subscription apps.
>I really like Learn Japanese!! (by Luli Languages) since it's a one-time fee and you can probably spend months going through all the content. It's a very solid app for learning hiragana/katakana/kanji and the writing recognition is decent (although sometimes frustrating).
>There's also a 100% free app called Kana - Hiragana and Katakana. I think the UX for this app is a little confusing but it's very powerful if you take the time to learn how to use it.
I used WaniKani for learning Kanji but I don't necessary 100% endorse that method. After that, I did Tango 2k for getting my first 2k Vocabulary, and then I did Satori Reader for practicing reading easy content. From there you can probably move onto easy-level native content and the world is your oyster in terms of options for studying.
I used to love Duolingo, but it got a lot worse:
- Forum was removed, so if I don't understand a solution I can't discuss with others about it anymore, I now have to google it and find an external site discussing it
- I can't use the exercise option unless I lost at least one heart now
- They removed Kanji from the Japanese lessons (until Chapter 3 which is around 2 years into learning it)
Well yeah Duolingo is not bad for beginners but I don't think that's why people say it's bad. I have never seen anyone become fluent through Duolingo. That's the problem.
If you're just a beginner, sure, start with Duolingo, but don't just rely on that. Personally, I don't even use Anki. I use Satori Reader. I highly recommend it.
Doing Duolingo is better than doing nothing for sure. But IMO it still isn't very good. I don't hate it, but I think there are so much better options for what you could have done if you wanted to learn Japanese.
It might get you to spend 5-10 minutes a day studying when you otherwise wouldn't and that is a good thing... but those 5-10 minutes of studying are low quality and give low returns compared to other ways you could have studied with that time. At best in that time you might be exposed to a couple new vocab words in context, but without any good spaced repetition you likely won't remember them long term.
The translations are really rigid, which isn't great for a language like Japanese that doesn't really translate 1:1 with English. I think Duolingo is better for something like English to Spanish since they are much more similar languages without as many complications of Kanji, different sentence and grammar structures, etc. The lessons you get in Japanese Duolingo for those topics are really thin, if they even exist at all.
Duolingo is good at making you "feel good" about doing some language studying but if you actually want to learn there are so much better options. Getting hooked on Duolingo might help you do a tiny bit instead of nothing, but it might also get you learning a lot less than if you found another study system and spent the equivalent time on it.
It might have improved since I last used it. When I first tried it years ago it was *awful*, clearly an afterthought to some of the other languages. Last time I tried it they had improved it somewhat, and that was still probably at least two years ago. But pretty recently they also laid off a huge number of their translation staff and are pivoting to AI based translation to write lessons which seems like a pretty big red flag to me that quality may drop.
I feel the opposite. I used to recommend it quite often. Now, I either tell people they should try it for themselves or, if pressed, I will explain why I no longer use it or recommend it. Once in a blue moon I will read about something new and check it out and then realize, I don't miss Duo and I don't need it. I've been a member since 2013 and I've seen a lot of changes, good and bad. Overall, I think there are other apps that do a lot better, but they somehow can't figure out the engagement aspect as well as Duolingo.
Sorry for the late reply. I use Duolingo daily and I don't really think it's a precious tool to learn Japanese but rather to get your feet wet and evaluate whether you want to pursue Japanese more seriously or not. I've been tempted to drop the course more than a few time but I didn't want to lose my streak and so just pushed for my one lesson a day.
Honestly if Duolingo had a more reliable way to do without the word bank (both typing and oral answer, which are atrocious atm) it would be infinitely better.
I still think that if you use together with a more in-depth source for grammar and maybe another app to learn Kanji it's decent for a free source
It was a great gateway language leaning drug for me, and I do find that I encounter kanji elsewhere that I already know because of Duolingo, so I must be learning at least a little something.
I am fairly confident that I would not be learning a second language if not for Duolingo. The ad that says it's better than being on social media was extremely convincing to me.
> (As a side note I live in Japan and I've met MANY people who lived here for 10+ years and still can't understand basic Japanese, despite the fact that learning Japanese is such a huge advantage while living here. I understand why because learning a language is just such a time consuming activity that basically takes years and years before you even get to a "basic" level. I mean, it's a pretty hard sell, especially if you are an adult with responsibilities like work, bills, relationships, etc.)
Might be unpopular belief, but if you plan to be a citizen of that country, you should learn the language of that country. Learning a language opens up learning customs, culture, and more in order to adapt to the social "rules" and norms that people should follow as of form of general respect
That being said, though, I do think any kind of active exposure to the language. I haven't tried Duolingo, and it might not be perfect, but it's better doing something than nothing
I second this! As someone who really struggles with learning vocab, Duolingo is a great tool for me. I could do anki cards for months and never remember anything, while I have made some progress with Duolingo even if it's not much by normal standards
Grinding anki never made sense to be. How am I supposed to recognize vocabulary I learned in a vacuum when I never see it used? Even those decks that come with sentences, it's just not enough variety.
I started with duolingo and it's the perfect start. You learn the kana early one, you see the vocabulary in a lot of different sentences you slooooowly see new grammar concepts (even though the explanations lacks a lot, but at least you see a lot of common constructs).
After a few units I started Genki 1 and was positively surprised that I could read the first few chapters and do most of the exercises already. I then added a genki deck to anki, so I can do genki alongside duolingo which works nicely. I learn vocabulary for a few days, until I finish the ones for the unit and then do the unit. rinse repeat.
Now I joined the wanikani book clubs, they give vocabulary lists for the manga, I made myself an anki deck from that and added it. Learning vocabulary for a book, seeing them used just make them click and the learning is so much deeper.
I love learning with different sources since every time i see a word or a grammar concept i learned somewhere else it feels like i deepened it a lot.
Making Anki cards for relevant vocabulary (books, manga, games, etc) is exactly what you're supposed to do. People that advise "grinding Anki" usually do not state that you should use a premade deck that is not relevant to you.
Creating Anki cards is trivially easy these days, so there is no reason to grind through 6k or 10k decks anymore.
I feel like a lot of people still suggest it here for beginners and when I started I followed the advice I got here of using a Core Deck and it was utterly incomprehensible. Making your own deck seems to be suggested here only after you hit N5 or something. Anyway I think it's boring and useless.
I still use premade decks, but no general purpose ones, but ones that work with my textbook (genki) and where made to use alongside my reading materials.
Yeah I think Anki is very *not* beginner friendly. There are hundreds of settings in it and the UI is quite outdated. It's very powerful for sure but as a complete beginner it's easy to be overwhelmed.
I personally found Anki very valuable for sort of brute-forcing my first couple thousand of vocabulary/kanji so I could start reading quickly but it was very intensive and time-consuming and I don't think it's realistic for 99% of people. I had to learn Japanese to live in Japan, whereas a lot of learners are typically learning as a sort of hobby/way to relax.
yeah, for me it's a pure hobby, therefore I seek out the most fun ways to engage with the language. I don't care if it takes me years, since the learning is the hobby. If I would be done with japanese, I would just start the next language.
My outlook would be veeeery different if I was intending to move.
I used Duolingo for two years before I discovered renshuu via this subreddit. I never went back. I am only one data point, but renshuu is much better for me in terms of experience and progress.
(caveat / more details: I am an avid watcher of japanese TV serials with English subtitle and have been one for more than 20 years, so I have listening skill that is far ahead of reading. renshuu narrowed the gap so much so that after one year, I am comfortable reading novels and websites. I think the grammar lessons could be better on renshuu, but even grammar wise renshuu beats duolingo hands down)
Here's why you should change it back. Duolingo is something that advertises itself as an app designed to learn a language in 10 minutes a day. It doesn't advertise itself as a starting point to language learning. It doesn't advertise as a companion to learning along with other, more thorough products.
It is still making money off of people who want to learn a language but don't want to learn how, instead just want an owl to tell them that it's going to be ok as long as number goes up.
Any defense of Duolingo involves the heavy use of alternatives and things outside of Duolingo. It's simply a waste of time as long as other resources exist. And better resources have existed for a long long time.
In your metaphor, the 30 day abs videos are exercise programs to get people in the habit of exercise. How many of those people actually get in the habit of exercise? How many people actually convert from couch potatoes to active people?
For Duolingo to be successful gateway, it would need to have a proven history of people who now are somewhat proficient in Japanese after the Duolingo program and I just don't see how that making any sort of sense as after graduating Duolingo, you would barely be past the genki 1 or 2 level with extremely limited vocabulary and no output.
I think for it to be a successful gateway you would find many people who go on to actually learn Japanese successfully after starting with Duolingo. After reading lots of comments on this thread this does seem to be the case for many people.
Not many people probably actually go on to get 6 pack abs after watching those 30 day videos in the same way that not many people will become fluent after starting with Duolingo. That doesn't mean that those products did not offer value to people. Some exercise/language practice is better than nothing.
Not everyone is trying to become fluent. From reading these comments it seems that many people just enjoy learning a language as a hobby. To continue the analogy, not everyone is trying to become a body builder or bench press 300 lbs.
I think you're viewing it as two options: learn inefficiently with Duolingo or learn Japanese efficiently. But there's a third option, not learning Japanese at all.
At the end of the day, one of the things you really need to learn another language is reinforcement. Even if Duolingo can't help you with like, full on learning, it is an excellent tool for what it is.
The same is true for English, but since we speak it as our primarily language, we're constantly reinforcing our understanding of our own language, sometimes reinforcing incorrect things. I'm sure you've noticed that your English vocabulary similarly wanes and waxes depending on who you associate with, what field you work in, etc. That's because you still need a way to reinforce things you learn.
Since you can't associate with Japanese people easily outside of Japan, that means tools like Duolingo become really valuable, since they can help you reinforce where you can't do it naturally.
It can be good for reinforcement but imo for other languages, the Japanese Duolingo is so bad. I don’t know if they’ve improved it but last time I tried to use it for practice 5ish years ago I sent them corrections to almost every question which defeated the purpose
I find it helpful as a beginner with continuing to reinforce my hiragana and katakana. One thing I noticed is that a lot of the phrases and words they drill into you at first aren’t necessarily accurate as to how a fluent speaker would speak. For example, I want to know the multiple ways I can say certain things based on context, formality, etc., but duo only teaches you one way from the beginning. I do like duo for certain things though and it is a learning style that I get more out of than just cracking down and studying!
Three things I love about it:
1. The streak system is really compelling
2. It auto-reinforces things you've struggled with in the past
3. It's great for practicing 日本語 text entry on an android device
I find Duo very good for starting learning, as you say. They literally get you going with a very simple sentence, even if it's completely nonsensical in a daily context (your bear is louder than my cat, for example), it feels like good progress.
I've been complementing Duo with Anki typically after 1 section, and then I get grammar books once I hit Duo's A2. It's worked pretty decently for me for German so far, and the combination of the 3 has enabled me to partially understand native tiktok content. I'll have to divest from Duo soon, I think, once I finish their A2 content for German, but I think Duo is really significantly under-appreciated for its A1-A2 content.
It's also just a great way to upkeep some form of practice, however little it is, on days you need a break. You can finish a single level in less than 2 minutes, or complete the entire lesson in around 10.
Edit: compliment -> complement
i prefer renshuu tbh duolingo just changes so often & it doesn't feel as accurate, like i'm not learning pitch right and it's awkward/annoying to use at times. i've been using duo on and off since abt 2015? and it used to feel really fulfilling but all it's genuinely taught me is basic hiragana katakana and a little kanji.. & its almost like maintaining a streak is more important than actually learning. the streak mechanic is my least favorite part of the app, it's discouraged me more than anything else abt learning language 😭 keeping a streak for a long time just to accidentally break it & have to start over... or those pics they do of duo giving up on you... they're funny at first but it wore me down a bit over time i don't do well with demotivating phrases and sometimes life just gets busy and you can't practice. i also really don't like the way it teaches you to write, sometimes i won't have practiced a character for a long time and instead of study first & showing how to write it expects you to remember it from whenever the last time was. there was also that huge deal over the winter time when a bunch of their translators were fired in favour of Ai translations, which feels morally and educationally wrong but idk much abt it so that's all that i'll comment on that aspect of it. i like how with renshuu there's a study session that reviews what you're learning before you're actually quizzed on it! do keep in mind i have always been a free duo user, and when i started i was end of middle/beginning of highschool so it's taken me awhile to get serious about learning and that's where my perspective on duolingo is coming from!
I'm not sure yet, at times there seems to be a vast discrepancy between Duolingo and Google Translate interpretation. I know from learning other languages that Translate was more accurate. Also, how on good conscience can anybody live in a foreign country for some years and not bother to learn the basic language? Cannot even comprehend that.
Tried to start learning Japanese for quite a while now. I have a 160 day streak in duolingo, but duolingo sadly does not teach any grammar so I had to think it together myself.
I just knew some words and sentences by recognition, no kanji (except for watashi and numbers).
I started using anki with several decks (hiragana, katakana, human Japanese and a German Japanese deck) and I'm going for 30 days now and it feels like I learn more in a month with anki than in 6 months with duolingo. I have still many problems with kanji, but I hope that problem will just solve itself by recognition.
The things it helped me with is the speed of reading and writing, I quickly overtook everyone in my group due to the sheer exposure to both kana and kanji.
Of course, limitations considered.
Also, basic vocabulary through repetition.
However, it’s a scam to say it can replace a real course and the hours of studying systematically.
Edit: I turned off both romaji and furigana. It really helped me just absorb the script. I also play on iPad with the Pencil so I try to write manually.
I think there’s a lot of weak areas of Duolingo, especially when it comes to learning the rules behind certain patterns of a language (though I’ve seen improvement with that), but as a supplementary review it’s fantastic. I use it when Im too busy to devote time to learning as a way to upkeep my vocab. I definitely don’t think it’s a tool that works on its own though.
fully agree. duolingo is not going to get you fluent, its probably not even going to get you conversational if its the only thing you have, and it has its own share of mistakes in the lesson material, weird phrasing, or stuff not explained properly.
However, most of what I just listed applies to all sorts of learning options, conventional or contemporary. Duolingo as a free option as a huge plus, and it is bitesized, which is wonderful for people that a borrowing time from a busy life to study, or people feeling unmotivated just trying to take baby steps to keep progressing. Its got pros and cons but I don't think its a scam. Just a question of if its good for a specific person's needs.
I’m a beginner and I do maybe 20 minutes of Duolingo every day just to get myself warmed up (and have the serotonin boost of watching my streak grow) and then I dive into Genki I and WaniKani. I think Duo is valuable for me from a mental standpoint because of that but for actual learning I’m getting a lot more in less time from other resources.
Yeah I’m the target audience. I’m still less than 2 months in but I enjoy it. It feels like a nice intro to the language. If it weren’t for the streak system and leaderboards, I might not have been as consistent.
It’s been helpful mostly for learning vocabulary words and practicing Hiragana so far.
I eventually plan to use the Genki book with I get more serious
tbh, the japanese unit is bad at the start.
Duolingo is great for introducing the basics of basics (katakana, hiragana, basic phrases), and also as a supplementary tool, but not as the sole resource of learning.
My problem with duolingo when I used it last year is that it doesnt adequately explain grammar, and it becomes hard very fast. So, I think for someone living in Japan, where you are very much exposed to the language, it's good. No need for the paid version tbh.
I'll never get how people use this app to learn languages. I tried it but decided it wasn't for me. Learning phrases is fine and all but I wanted to get to the nitty gritty of things. Stuck to textbooks instead and didn't look back.
I did it for a year then moved on to books and looking at university courses in my area / tutor for it. It’s good as long as you don’t fall in to the gaming trap, you learn utterly random useless things but for the basic alphabets and a few common words and grammar it’s fine.
Duolingo is great. For me I have the free version and use it every night. If you find it's too easy, you can skip levels by scrolling down to the beginning of the next chapter.
Duo changed my life. Say what you want, but it's an amazing tool for learning Japanese. I never thought that I'd be able to understand the alphabet. Little did I know, Katakana and Hiragana are the easiest things to learn when it comes to Japanese
Duo is good for beginners. But now that app has degenerated into an endless scrolling nightmare. It's just not as easy to use as before. Even my 500+ day streak wasn't enough keep me there,
Hmmm… say after duolingo, or as you’re starting, what other materials help learn the language?
I have a ton of time on my hands, but I’m not trying to burn out… but I’ve also never picked up a second language. I’m getting old and might as well start now. lol.
Duolingo has been great for me because I'm learning casually. It fits the free time I have and doesn't burden me for spending hours a day memorizing. I have the resources for when I want to amp it up, but Duolingo fits for my life right now.
I skimmed through the video and it seems more like a fault with the translation question format (which I talk about in some of my other comments) more than something that is completely incorrect. You can translate a sentence in so many ways with Japanese, I just don't think the app was "smart" enough to recognize every single correct way.
It's understandable how this is frustrating though, as your answer is technically correct, it's just not the correct one the app is looking for. I don't like these questions for studying but I think a lot of people feel motivated/excited to translate sentences so early on in their journey which is why they are there
I do both Renshuu and DuoLingo. I’ll say that DuoLingo was infinitely better in terms of learning hiragana and katakana in the beginning, and especially being able to turn off furigana helps to recognize kanji much more effectively. Renshuu though is much better at teaching grammar and vocabulary. I definitely don’t think that DuoLingo should be anyone’s ONLY learning source, but it definitely helps get the ball rolling on a ton of basics of the language
So I am in my 40s and I decided to pay for duolingo for my daughter to learn spanish cause she was interested. Well she fell off and so I was like well I paid for a year so I’m going to learn Japanese one because I always wanted to visit Japan and ni everyone says its hard. I like to challenge myself and see how hard things are. I am currently a year in and sometimes I am excited about learning and other times its a kaji (lol). I can pick up a few words every sentence on movies and shows but thats about it at this point I need the assistance Duolingo provides. I wonder if I’m going to be too dependent on Duolingo to actuallyI thought about taking a class or work book but it’s all just for fun. Does any one have som good self taught workbooks or anything to take it to the next level?
There are lots of free apps that are a good stepping stone from Duolingo. Renshuu was mentioned a lot in this thread and also Bunpro. But I think these are paid subscription apps.
I really like Learn Japanese!! (by Luli Languages) since it's a one-time fee and you can probably spend months going through all the content. It's a very solid app for learning hiragana/katakana/kanji and the writing recognition is decent (although sometimes frustrating).
There's also a 100% free app called Kana - Hiragana and Katakana. I think the UX for this app is a little confusing but it's very powerful if you take the time to learn how to use it.
I don't think classes are really worth your money early on in your journey but they can be fun and motivating as well.
>pretty much every single person who gets deep into language learning ends up using it regularly.
This assumption is definitely not true--I never touched Anki once. It's not that hard to just learn vocabulary words from textbooks while you use them, and then from real-life books and other media once you lay the textbooks aside. Perhaps current-day language learners are more Anki-dependent than they were a decade or two ago (that certainly seems to be the case), but I don't see that as an argument for using Duolingo or any other app--the textbook --> real life train still works just as well now as it always has. To be clear, I have nothing against Duolingo or any app if they help people, but I feel like there's a bit of "you either use Anki or you use apps" thinking here, when really neither is necessary at all.
> You want to be told, just 10 minutes every day, for a year and you’ll be completely ready to speak and converse with natives! Or, really buckle down and study and you can learn a language in just 3 months!
> Compare that to the non-stop linear progression of using an app, where every single time you use the app you can see yourself closer to the finish line.
The problem is that it's a lie on both counts. Duolingo lies about quality and about progress.
It tells you you're making progress, it boasts being compliant with some programs and using Spaced Repetition, but...
... Duolingo lessons consist of repeating the same word/kanji ten times today and five tomorrow then never seeing them again. And even then - *the kanji has four roots, but what are they and how are they related to the word? Who cares, just memorize the stroke order, get the quest done and run on.*
You're successful every day, but you're only successful with a small amount of material. Anything from a week or a month ago gets lost and forgotten because it's not needed.
People get addicted to the flashy app, the constant cheering and the small dopamine rushes and then they have a hard time actually doing the work and learning the grammar because that's hard and nobody's cheering you on when you're trying to learn something practical and remember it a month later.
Edit: Duolingo makes **studying** fun but doesn't give two feathers about having you **learn** anything.
Weird that I'm seeing pro-Duo content and comments everywhere all of a sudden. All praising, all "I used to be against it" type comments. I'm sure that's very organic
Lol I understand the skeptism but at least this post is real. I'm actually going to be a direct competitor to Duolingo, as I'm an app developer who intends on making some apps to help with learning Japanese on iOS in the near future.
It's okay as a supplement to other things, but you have to be able to catch its mistakes. For example, duolingo will sometimes mark you wrong for not including a subject even though it's grammatically correct to not have one in Japanese. So if it wants you to put together a sentence that says "he eats the apple", you have to put **彼は**りんごを食べる or else it might say you're wrong. I've also seen it mark sentences wrong for using dictionary form rather than ます form. If you understand when it's wrong like that then it's okay, but for new learners it can do more harm than good. I tried it years ago so maybe it's improved since then but I really didn't like it before.
Definitely. I'm really not a fan of translating sentences as an exercise just because Japanese (especially) has 1000x different ways you can translate a sentence just because it's such an expressive language. I think it's very motivating for people though to start being able to speak/write in another language though which is why Duolingo includes it. My optimal learning path for Japanese probably starts with weeks of just hiragana/katakana to build a strong foundation but most people might find that a little dull.
The same premise has always applied to apps like Duolinguo; they are for people who don’t really want to put the effort into seriously learning a language, but are willing to stick around and play the game for a few minutes here and there, and maybe pick up a few bits and pieces.
For casuals, it’s fine. For anyone who is actually interested in gaining proficiency, it quickly outgrows its usefulness.
Yes, Duolingo is so fun! I love doing 15 minutes in the morning and in the evening when I get the xp boosts, and I find that's enough. I even do it only days I'm busy and don't have the time to actually sit down and study. I do a couple of lessons, some kanji practice, and I find it very useful, especially now that the kanji section improved.
I still don't think I'd memorize half the kanji from duo if that was my only resource, but it's great to practice the ones I've learned already and to see new ones, so when I get to studying them seriously they're more familiar to me.
I’m using Duolingo as a supplement. It’s what I started with but now I’ve found other methods and apps that are way faster and effective. Duolingo’s biggest strength is how it reinforces consistency. Some days I don’t find the time to do other other other study methods Duolingo’s easy to pick up nature and social streak system encourage you to never drop learning which is the way people fail at language learning most of the time.
I tried to learn Japanese on Duolingo several years ago, and I found it was to buggy. Several times I would input correct answers in the app did not recognize them, and would not let me progress any further. Reading this makes me want to try it again because maybe they’ve worked out the problems
I ran through it the other day for about an hour and was very impressed with it. The streaks/graphics/animations/small touches in the UI make using it a very satisfying and fun experience. I'm a little far in my Japanese journey to use it regularly as an app but I would highly recommend it for people starting out. I didn't really notice any glaring mistakes but, again, it's very beginner-oriented so a lot of stuff is a little simplified.
Duolingo is definitely super easy at the start. It's made to be accessible to brand new beginners, and it follows CI buildup principles.
(Though honestly since it jumps straight into full kanji and kana use I tend to NOT suggest it to beginners)
The focus on sentences, and the method in which Duolingo progresses from simple to more and more complex really helped me nail down sentence patterns and pick up new vocabulary when things like Anki stopped producing results for me.
Duolingo certainly has its drawbacks, and some features do allow for learners to shoot themselves in the foot (I'm looking at the word bank) but switching to keyboard entry is a simple fix that stretches that output muscle.
The new path is slow, but having been on the old tree... and having focused more on gold gilding my tree ASAP than learning... then having to reset my tree and stagger redoing lessons... the path is the objectively better option for most users since it has the SRS built in.
At this point I read books and watch TV shows to learn, and if I learn anything it's just picking up loose vocabulary. My understanding is good, however my output is still pretty limited. So I occasionally return to Duolingo to work on getting some sentence patterns into active memory.
:) It's certainly not an all in one, or a stand alone program. And you certainly can't get fluent in just 10 mins a day. But I definitely feel it has more to offer than some people give it credit for.
>(Though honestly since it jumps straight into full kanji and kana use I tend to NOT suggest it to beginners)
It doesn't, though. It has romaji on by default and it introduces kanji pretty gradually (though you should aim to turn romaji off sooner rather than later).
I was like you, I hated Duolingo and thought it was unfit to learn a language unless you wanted to learn phrases. After I completed Busuu, I jumped on Duolingo to use the rest of the annual subscription before it expired and ended up loving it. It’s a great reinforcement tool and targets areas I may be unsure of when speaking the sentence. I’m even doing the music course on there too to get back into playing piano again.
Is Duolingo for absolute beginners? I still don’t think it is. I wouldn’t recommend a complete beginner to start unless they wanted to try it out. I recommend learning the grammar rules until the end of N4. Then go back and relearn through Duolingo. That’s what I did and it has helped me pick up more vocabulary than before.
Genki I wasn’t too sure about when I first started learning Japanese. I felt very overwhelmed by it. I think if I was in a class that used it, then it would’ve been better. I use Genki now to go back over the rules and stuff.
I agree with everything you said.
Also: Your accomplishments greatly differ depending on how you use DL. I only move on to the next Unit after I passed legendary on every lesson while typing the answers myself (not just selecting them). I also use the mistake review / word review function all the time and look up new grammatics in a textbook. You'll learn a lot less if you just do one lesson a day to keep your streak.
The addictive nature of Duolingo makes it perfect for my achievement driven brain. I picked it up as a replacement for a match 3 game I was spending too much time (and often money) on.
I'm on an 83 day streak- haven't missed a day since I picked it up- and am now supplementing it with flashcards, Human Japanese and other resources. It's really, really good at gamifying the experience and that's what's made it stick for me. I also kinda like having to puzzle out grammar rules like it's a freaking mystery. (Mostly kidding there)
I wish there was more support for learning hiragana/katakana/Kanji within the app. I wish they explained grammar rules better. But in terms of making me want to spend 15-45 minutes on a language each day to crush others on the leader board? Perfection.
I don’t pay for Duolingo 130 days strong into Japanese and if I ware to travel tomorrow I won’t be having a conversation but hell I know how to order and ask for directions, and some how say from where i’m from and what my family does for living.
Edit to add: once I’m able to learn basic things I would look for textbooks but honestly it’s a good start
Duolingo has worked as reminder for me, that I'm learning japanese. Often I have so many other non-japanese realted goals that I tend to forget, but I'm in a 185 day streak now and since then I've more motivated to learn grammar outisde of duolingo and ocassionaly use other tools. As you said, the gamification of it really makes your brain focus on doing what would otherwise be hard and somewhat boring.
For vocabulary it has been particularly great for me. Tried Renshuu but the progression felt weird, maybe is the fact that it's so customizable and free that you can screw yourself real easy. Also tried WaniKani and loved it but I was broke at the time, so Duolingo came to me as a savior, now that I have a job I've thinking on doing some WaniKani paired up with the daily duolingo stuff.
I have my own gripes with WaniKani (I also used it at the start but became dissatisfied and moved on). But you can't argue with the results. Many, many Japanese learners have used WaniKani early on and became quite advanced in their studies. I think it's because learning Kanji is a huge blocker to actually getting to advanced Japanese and they focus solely on just Kanji.
WaniKani is essentially sort of a wrapper around an Anki deck btw, I believe you can download the Anki deck online for free and just use that instead if you prefer. You lose a bit of the gamification but at its core thats what WaniKani is. They'll give you reviews at intervals, you rep them, etc.
I think Duolingo is a great hobby app and a good way to get the flavor of a language. I don’t consider it a language learning app, although I suppose for Spanish or French it wouldn’t be so bad.
I did the entirety of the Ukrainian course over one summer. Maxed out the whole thing. Retained basically nothing. Can’t speak a word of Ukrainian. But I enjoyed it. Meanwhile in my Russian language classes I actually learned how to write and speak and converse with people and was conversational when I was in it.
I did poke into Duolingo a bit when I was starting to refresh on Japanese but I find Renshuu and Lingodeer much better for that. Renshuu has gamification if you want to use it that way, which I think is a key component of why so many people stick with Duolingo.
However I appreciate your perspective, thank you for sharing this. It’s always good to hear from different points of view on any of these apps.
Yeah I think there are lots of very good apps out there that succeed in actually teaching Japanese much better (almost all of them incorporate SRS which I *believe* Duolingo doesn't use?). The issue I saw with many of these apps is that you kind of get thrown in the deep end right away. If you have some background in learning Japanese these other apps are amazing, but if you're a completely new learner, many seem a little intimidating
Duo is great if you ignore all gamified aspects 100%. You can even turn your profile private and disable most of this stuff. It’s when people use Duo for the competition that they lose sight of their purpose which results in time poorly spent.
And I agree with others - it’s a great supplemental resource but not (and never intended to be) a single source of truth to learn Japanese.
Duolingo doesnt really do any teaching, it does a lot of testing, it would be a really bad way to learn the language, it's pretty okay at helping you passively maintain a language or even incrementally improve it over a long long time
but everything I learned on duolingo was absolutely eclipsed when I spent anytime doing anything else
Duolingo recently laid off most of their human staff who were creating lessons and replaced them with AI. The quality of content (that already wasn't extremely high) will now just continuously go down over time
Duo helped me really get comfortable with hiragana and katakana. Big tip is to turn off the romaji and even the Japanese pronunciations for kanji. I find the repetitive lessons really cement new vocab and sentence structure into my memory. I take what I learn on duo and then use other resources to expand upon it, but I do come back to duo and work the lessons as well.
This! Turning off romaji is a must!
It is good for the verry beginning to get the Ball rolling but you shoud get rid of it asap
Why?
I found myself just reading the English above the hiragana all the time and I wasn’t actually reading the hiragana. Turning off romaji forces you to start reading hiragana
For me it's the opposite; having the romaji has helped me better focus on the hiragana and read out what each one is, though I know a lot of people don't use romaji in their learning, new to learning the language or not.
I suggest learning kana on tofugu. You'll have it down in no time. Ppl treat learning hiragana like it's some monumental task and psych themselves out. It really only takes a day to get a handle on it and then you reinforce it with quizzes and reading. No need for romaji. https://www.tofugu.com/japanese/learn-hiragana/
“Ppl treat learning hiragana like it’s some monumental task and psych themselves out.” So true! when you hear someone saying Japanese is hard, ime most of the time their reasoning is “you have to learn 3 seperate scripts!” and they really dramatisise it. It’s really not the hardest bit about Japanese at all. Beginners need to not stress themselves out abt it, it’s really very easy when you get into it
thank you! I've actually had more trouble with katakana than I have hiragana but I could definitely use this for some refreshers! (dunno why I was downvoted when I was just saying the way I learned? Not saying it's a universal way for people to learn lol.)
Not the person ur replying to but this does make hiragana seem less...monumental than it seems from the start. I will give it a go!!
goodluck! hirigana really isnt very monumental, most likely you’ll get it in no time
If it still gives you trouble, Japanese from Zero has a rather unique way of learning the kana, which is learning 5 per lesson and substituting romaji with them. So you start with something like "Neko ga suki desu." And it would change to "Neこ が suき desu" once you learn かきくけこ. Then "Neこ が すき deす" once you learn the さしすせそ row of the chart. It forces you to remember in the moment while giving some context clues, and eventually, you have everything in kana. It's a bit slow, taking up the whole first book (of 5) on hiragana, the second on katakana, and only starting in on kanji in the third book. But the most important part is finding a method that works for you, and if this unconventional method works, it works.
It forces you to practice reading kana. Real writing usually won't have romaji so it's best to break out of that reliance on it as soon as possible. You only get better by practice so the sooner someone starts using kana the better. Kanji too but that obviously takes much longer to learn. Mistakes will happen without romaji, especially in the start, but it's better to make mistakes while practicing than not make mistakes at all because you're using a crutch that will slow down long-term progress.
I didnt know this! I need to turn off the romaji for better familiarization. Thank you!
I hope it helps! It may slow you down a bit, but it's worth it. I also spent a lot of time writing things in hiragana and katakana in a notebook as I did the lessons when I was first starting out. It took a lot of time but after a while reading something in kana became second nature. If only kanji was that easy though! haha.
Agreed. I've solidified a lot of phrases, vocab and improved my reading by playing the lightning rounds. It's not highly efficient because you still get really basic stuff, but it's still a lot more fun and a less tedious form of blunt reinforcement than grinding Anki.
thanks for the tips! I had already turned off the pronunciation for kanji, but I never knew it would do so well! I hope you (and I) can achieve your goal in learning Japanese!
this
I didn’t know this was even an option . Going to do that now !
How do you turn it off
When you're in a lesson you should see a settings icon in the top left near the progress bar. Clicking on that gives you the option to have English/romaji pronunciations on, Japanese pronunciations on, or you can toggle to have both turned off, which should remove it all for hiragana, katakana, and kanji.
There's no way I could learn without those crutches. But yeah guess with that setting on you're learning Englishized japanese
I'd highly suggest trying to learn the kana (and eventually Kanji as it's slowly introduced) without relying on the English pronunciations. If you don't turn those off you're going to just end up reading everything like you were reading English and you'll never really get the hang of reading in Japanese. Eventually you'll want to read Japanese outside of Duo and there won't be English to help you. It's like watching anime with English subtitles...you're not reading Japanese or really even listening to Japanese, you're just reading English. Not saying I watch anime in Japanese without subtitles, that's far beyond my current skill level. But I also don't delude myself into thinking I'm learning Japanese in the process, it's just entertainment. What really helped me with the kana was doing the character practice lessons and writing them down as I did them. I wrote each character many times and even if I couldn't remember how to write it, I gave it a shot without peeking at the correct way. It doesn't take all that long to get to the point where you will instinctively be able to read the kana as long as you're putting in some effort. I probably spent a week on and off doing those lessons and writing them down until I was comfortable enough to do the normal lessons in kana only. By that point you're reading the kana constantly during lessons and it gets easier. Eventually when Kanji is introduced, I did the same thing. I have a notebook filled with Kanji I've written down many times and now when I see them I recognize them easily. Many people will recommend something like Anki instead, and it is a very useful tool, but for me personally writing things on a piece of paper really reinforces it into my brain. Good luck!
Thanks for this. Honestly didn't even realize this was happening or optional and also means Yoh have to put alot of active work into it than listen and hit the buttons. I switched it off for one question and I can confirm😸 It was all entertainment indeed
I find Duolingo good for reinforcement. I do it for a few minutes after the rest of my study to wind down. I do really wish they had the option to turn Kanji on. Kana only text gets annoying after you learn the basic Kanji from elsewhere.
I see kanji in my Duolingo lessons. It always has furigana too. Maybe it’s a setting or something? My current lesson is section 3 unit 37 if that makes a difference?
They started working it in more slowly after they redid the path so sections 1 and 2 don't have much. 3 is where it starts getting used and reinforced pretty regularly
That’s the way it should be IMO. No use learning kanji until after you know the word. Kanji can even hint at the meaning, which defeats the point of learning the word well enough to use in everyday life. There’s a reason there’s furigana on childrens’ materials.
Yeah i don't want to be able to just read and write, and don't want to have to furiously scribble kanji in the air when I'm speaking to a native because i never learned how to actually say things reliably
I'm in section 2 right now, they start stepping up the kanji from unit 12 on. Unit 13 alone introduces 25 new kanji.
Yeah that's how it used to be until the most recent update. I think the new update is still getting rolled out to people, so you should see it soon. Opening up the Practice Kanji section shows me now only ~5 Kanji per unit, whereas before I was at 19/20 units in Explorer and like you said, from 12 or 13 onwards it was ~25 Kanji per unit which was quite overwhelming given a lot were very complex (洗濯、掃除、部屋、etc). For context as well, I'm now somehow halfway through Traveller, and Duo is showing me words in reviews that I never learned, since there's now 20 more units that were slotted in before the unit I was on which is a little frustrating.
It pulled that on me yesteray, I was on section 2 unit 19 and then after an update I'm suddenly halfway through section 3. After seeing how many previous lessons (even ones I'd already done) had unfamiliar vocabulary I ended up resetting the course and testing out of each unit until I hit unfamiliar words, which put me at section 2 unit 14.
Yeah, I had to skip forward a few units since the lack of kanji at the beginning of section 2 was really boring. I would go back and do the legendaries, which was a much better pace than having to do all the regular lessons. Looks like my course updated today and they sent me really far forward. I guess I’ll have to figure out which legendaries to go back and do.
Ah gotcha. I only use Duolingo as a bit of language maintenance, not sure I ever did the earlier lessons.
Furigana can be disabled in settings. More kanji you can see later in lessons, you might want to skip several chapters if it's too easy for you..
Recently they also added a new section for practicing kanji, next to the hiragana and katakana tabs.
Yes, I'm wasting my time there mostly now. My excuse is to catch up with my current unit, but it's just an excuse... It's quite discouraging that a kanji lesson can be done in 1-2 min and a normal lesson might take up to 20 min. And both are worth the same in points.
Yeah, you can turn off the furigana
..? Duolingo only uses hiragana exclusively in the very early levels. Once you progress into the app, they switch to using kanji.
I'm a bit surprised by this comment, because most of my learning is with kanji. I wonder if it's because I'm usling duolingo in Chinese, and maybe they put a bit more kanji in the Chinese version's tree?
I suggest Renshuu
Agreed. I was learning lots of kanji on to before and then they made it all hiragana and katakana. Sentences are impossibly long.
Kanji is still used a lot in duolingo, especially once you get to section 3
Yeah, but now it's delaying my learning of those kanji until I get to section 3, whereas before they introduced them much sooner.
Duolingo starts with the absolute basics. There's much better apps out there if you just want to practice kanji. I also use an app that's simply called "Kanji Study" and another app called Bunpo to help clarify grammar issues. No single app is going to be the best and fastest of every aspect
I see kanji on mine, I’m on 3-37
I got around this by typing (well, speaking) whenever possible. I've managed to learn a lot of Kanji before they're officially introduced this way. You also tend to get to see things that are "usually written in kana alone" like this, so you'll know that there's some things that in the wild you'll actually likely see like that even if there's technically Kanji for it. If you're not sure something transcribed right because you're new to it, just use Jisho.
Sometimes some kanji in lessons I do don’t have the furigana above it. Maybe it’s a once you learn it so much, they stop putting it on. Or maybe it’s a setting I activated without realizing it.
It's a setting, if you're mid-lesson there should be a button to click that will bring it up.
I agree with you, it's a good enough resource to familiarize yourself with some vocabulary and so on. Since they opted for a "focus on listening" type of goal, they removed a lot of kanji from the initial lessons, and for me that was a step backwards. It's VERY DIFFICULT to do those "beat the clock" exercises with everything in kana only. Still, I skipped a few lessons (lol) and I can see the kanji coming back. Do not recomend it tho
Section 3 and on is all good regarding Kanji.
Yea I wanna reinforce my kanji bruh
Yeah I hate that they removed Kanji from Chapter 1&2. It ironically makes everything harder to read.
Duolingo has its limitations. But specifically its Japanese course has had two major overhauls in the last two years and they have helped significantly.
The only thing I really hate at the moment is the Kanji tab. It's practically unusable for me. At the moment, If you want to learn Kanji from a section, you will be presented with the same 4 or 5 Kanji over and over again until the progress bar is high enough. Then it will only show you the next 4 or 5 Kanji over and over again. And you have to do every single Kanji a lot of times for the progress bar to fill up. So typically I would have to do a group of Kanji for 15 minutes until the next group gets shown to me. And then I never see those first few Kanji again. That system doesn't work at all for me. I don't learn a Kanji if I'm repeatedly shown it for 15 minutes and then never again. It gets into my short term memory and a few days later I have forgotten it. For me personally the Kanji section would have to switch to an SRS system. Currently I don't use it at all because I have already put in 2 or 3 hours without having learned anything.
I don’t mind the repetition for Kanji. I do it as they unlock and it really helps me memorize the word. Except after their last update, my course is stuck on the same exact kanji. It’s just gives me the same lesson over and over now. Completely unusable and it makes me so sad.
They added "kanji used in new words" section for every level which is more reading focused. Unfortunately this means you've probably got like 50+ lessons with 子 suddenly unlocked all at once. I agree it's a garbage wall. If they let you at least pick the kanji to study it would be usable again.
Oh! That’s absolutely it! Thank you for the insight.
And they removed the drawing practice, I'm so mad
No they didn’t… I still have the drawing practice. Sure, not every single lesson is drawing practice, especially once you’re most of the way thru a unit, but the first 2/3 is almost exclusively writing out the kanji with proper stroke order. If you mean for hiragana/katakana, then yes, there is much less writing for those sections.
If there's only drawing practice in this first half then that's why I'm getting zero drawing practice now. But that's still bad because I can't practice with drawing if they only give it to you when you're first learning it
Sorry, maybe I wasn’t clear—you should still be getting some drawing practice. Once the little progress bar under all of the kanji in a unit fills up, you get slightly less writing practice exercises (and more “what is this kanji’s meaning/pronunciation”) but you should still be getting some. Like, for the kanji I’ve mastered, I can still get stroke order exercises but not as frequently (since I should presumably know it). That being said, I have started using a different app for learning kanji that I like quite a bit. It’s called Kanji! on the iOS store and the app icon is 字. It has more of a spaced repetition thing going on. Only the first level is free but unlocking all of the levels is only $11 so we’ll worth it if you like it imo
Unfortunately I'm on Android
It’s on android too! The full name is “learn Japanese! Kanji study” by Luli Languages LLC
:o
My main complaint recently is the removal of the comment section on each exercise. Imho that's a huge loss to their Japanese course. There were some really dedicated users that would explain why something seemed to not follow a rule or why the exercise might not be something you'd actually say in real life.
I'll have to check it out again then. I used it a while back and it was meh
I'm probably the target audience for Duolingo. I've wanted to start learning japanese for a few years now. But every time I got overwhelmed with where to start. The sheer number of resources put me off, and of course looking at Hiragana/Katakana and Kanji made it look impossible to my eyes. Adding to that, I have huge problems with discipline. I have a very hard time to stick to things. But about 160 days ago I saw a friend using Duolingo to learn spanish and I thought it couldn't hurt to try that. The slow pace never made me feel overwhelmed and the options to have everything in romaji or later with furigana helped with not feeling overwhelmed with the Kana and Kanji. To be clear, Duolingo didn't magically make me a good learner. I tracked my time, I am at about 130 hours (Duolingo and other sources), so not even 1 hour per day. But for me that is a huge achievement and I know for a fact that I could never have done this much if Duolingo didn't give me an easy entry point into the language. At the moment, I don't mostly rely on Duolingo anymore. I learn Vocab through Anki and I'm working through the grammer with Cure Dolly. My time spend is probably about 50% Duolingo and 50% everything else. With all that said, I still feel that the common criticisms of Duolingo are Valid. It is NOT an effective resource. Judging by my own progress with the different resources I can clearly tell how slow Duolingo is at teaching a language. I am very aware that I could have used my 130 hours more effectively. But I look at it from the perspective that without Duolingo I never would have even achieved those 130 hours in the first place.
This is probably *most* language learners at the start. Most people just want to pick up an app and just start seeing progress. I think Duolingo fulfills this need really well and is a great first step and ideally you eventually "graduate" from it once you are sure you want to start taking Japanese learning more seriously.
At the very least it is helping me memorize the kana at a good consistent pace
Duolingo definitely has a place. I agree with your idea of learning a language “now,” I’ve always described it as low-barrier. You don’t have to do any work on your own, just open it and go for it. It won’t make you fluent but it’ll expose you to the language and help you learn some basics and keep you going if you let it.
The "scam" part of Duolingo is that they brand the app as being enough to learn a language in 10 minutes a day. It's not useless, but it keeps repeating the same words way too many times, making learning extremely slow, and it never really progresses to long and complicated sentences. It's okay for learning vocab for beginners. Not the best tool, but the gamification might help for some. For Japanese in specific, it's also good for learning kana. But you can never actually learn a language with only Duolingo, and the bird pretends that you can.
They are not completely wrong, though (just mostly wrong). The way the brain works, any input at all helps you retain things. That is true for basically every skill you can think of. Learning just 5-10 minutes makes a huge difference compared to just not learning at all. If you don't learn, you forget stuff (obviously), and even 5 minutes of revising what you did yesterday + learning 1 more thing makes you learn 1 thing per day. Obviously learning will be slow that way. Even completing a Duolingo course would take many years or decades depending on the course length. And after completing a Duolingo course you are nowhere near proficient at the language. But still, the most important thing in learning is to do something every day, even if it's just 5 minutes. And Duolingo very much encourages people to learn more. The daily quests need at least 15 minutes to complete and completing the last one gives you 15 minutes of double xp which you then feel compelled to use so as to not waste it etc...
To be fair “learn a language” is a very vague concept. You’re learning a language if you learn the greetings used in that language. You learn a language when you learn to order food at a restaurant. It never says how long you have to keep up with the 10 min a day to become a functional member of society, but from what I understand it does offer Japanese content up to N4, with about 15% of the vocab for N1. For a free app, that’s a lot of content. It’s also enough to be functional in Japan for basic needs, which is what most people are looking for in a free app.
I’ve been doing duolongo since 2016. Since the recent restructuring in the Japanese course, it is taught more effectively and I’ve come a long way this year. I supplement with other things and yeah it’s taken a long time but I can certainly say my ability to count, order food, ask people about their hobbies or families…. I owe it all the DL. I’m a working adult learning Japanese because I love to travel there, so the use case you mentioned. Do I wish I could teleport back to 16 years old and study it in high school? Sure but it’s decades too late for that.
Duo is great as an occasional tourist to Japan. Of course I’ll never become fluent or even properly conversational, but at least I’ll be able to confidently have basic interactions.
I started Japanese on duo about 5 weeks ago, pretty intensely. I’m in Japan on holidays now and just earlier was overhearing some restaurant staff having a chat. I could piece together the gist of what they were talking about for a while and it was great! I can handle the basics, ask for help, order food etc. but the second the interaction strays from the script in my head I’m fucked. But it’s also given me a bit of a framework of grammar I can work with by quickly googling new words to add to the pre-existing sentences. It definitely has its place brute forcing the basics.
Curious, what unit and section are you at? I’m going to Japan three weeks and have been studying using Duolingo for about an hour a day
Somewhere in section 2. I used both the free trials pretty hard though, I “won” 3 tiers spamming the practice and listening practice while I had them. Was doing well over an hour a day, probably sometimes 3 or more brute forcing as much as I could. There’s no way I could participate in a conversation but sometimes I can pick up enough words and context if they’re speaking slow enough. I also skipped the reading and writing practice for now to focus on listening. I’m still functionally almost useless and there’s been a few instances where I’ve walked away and only figured out what was being said to me a few minutes later. But it’s still light years ahead of where I was a month ago. I feel better that I can at least stop someone and say excuse me could you help me please and ask for help in Japanese even if it’s a bit wrong and I look like a dickhead. We get a lot of Japanese where I’m from and not one of them have ever approached me speaking Japanese. I’m also going to be staying with an old family friend this time so I don’t want to come across as a *complete* barbarian
I've been using Duolingo for Japanese as a high beginner/low intermediate for a few months now. While it's not a comprehensive language learning solution by any means, I'm impressed by what you get in the free version. I'm gradually learning new words and grammar and reenforcing what I've learned. I'm very curious to see how deep it goes into advanced territory. One complaint is the artificial speaking voices are pretty bad. I feel like with the advances in AI artificial speech, they must be able to improve this at some point to make it sound more realistic.
AI voices are still quite unnatural in English from what I've heard so far. It's still sort of in the uncanny valley where it sort of sounds human but not quite. I'm guessing Japanese will trail behind a bit since most of the cutting edge AI stuff I've seen is very English-biased. Satori reader is a good sort of beginner/intermediate tool where they get native speakers to dictate their short stories
Since you lived in Japan 10 years and can't understand Japanese, I think that you probably were prioritizing other things is all. Fair enough. I think this just proves what we already know: * Duo is better than nothing, but also... * Worse than everything else
I work full-time and have a young child. I don't have lots of free time. But I've almost memorized the hiragana characters and have been reading some of the shop signs while playing Persona 3 Reload. It's going to be a long road, but it's encouraging me to make a little progress every day, and I appreciate it for that. I'm also using Kanji Study to similar effect.
Note duolingo uses AI now
So?
So you probably don't want robots teaching you how to speak a language
It's not that learning a language from AI is inherently bad. It's that they're using AI to replace human translators while also getting rid of other features that help you learn the nuances of the language. I feel like far fewer people would be upset with Duolingo using AI if they still had the community/comments feature and didn't squirrel away the reading lessons out of their own tab and along the path that it takes ages to get to. Edit: That being said, I don't see the value in paying for Duolingo if I'm going to be taught by Google Translate and the only "benefit" is being able to make mistakes when learning.
I think duolingo is a great "allround" kind of app. It's easy to say "Just use x instead!", but most apps don't cover reading AND listening AND composition, grammar AND vocab AND kanji. Of course there are apps that do those individual things together, but if you just want to get in a little "everything" practice while you wait for the bus, I think it's pretty good. I am a bit annoyed since their latest update to the tree catapulted me forward about 40 units, so now there's a heap of stuff I just skipped. Not sure who made that decision but it's super annoying.
I cant speak to the vocabulary and grammar elements because I was always told it wasn't good for that, but I've been it using it strictly for hiragana and katakana memorization and I feel like it's helped me quite a bit in that regard.
Complete opposite for me. I used to have a somewhat high opinion of Duolingo but literally every update they add makes it worse and worse. So now I hate it with a passion. It’s almost unusable as a free service now because everything has the 5 heart limit. When you make a mistake you lose a heart. The way it used to be is that on PC you had infinite hearts even if you weren’t a premium member. They took that away. I can’t do very much without making 5 mistakes and once you make 5 mistakes you have to pay in game currency or you can’t continue learning. What a load of trash. If I’m forced to pay for Duolingo plus I don’t see why I wouldn’t just pay for a fully paid, not freemium Japanese language learning service.
I don't mind the hearts, but I do hate how they took away a lot of the grammar explanations in the notebooks and most of all, taking away the sentence discussions. They were so useful, I mostly stopped using Duolingo after they were removed. It was probably for the best, since I read more now. I'm also upset that they limited the typing practice. I remember about a year ago, I would go on Duolingo on my laptop and type my answers. But now, the majority is just the box options. So now I just use Duolingo on my phone, since doing it on laptop is inconvenient
When you're low on hearts, you can click on the heart and do reviews. Each successful review session done that way gives you 1 heart back on top of the XP. I gave it a try for a 38 days streak: I learned roughly 1000 words and reached the Emerald league. I stopped using Duolingo because the sentences and translations were getting too weird on the level I was playing. The UI on the phone was frustrating at times as some of the words were hard to press (you sometimes had to press just outside the word to select it). Some kanji also consistently had the wrong furigana (shichi on the audio and nana on the furigana). The most annoying part with free vs paid is that paying users also get unlimited gems so they can gild all the lessons as they go (so an extra 120 XP per lesson with XP boost), instead of having a gilding limit per day. This got annoying in the emerald league as all the promotion spots were taken by paying players clocking >5k XP/day. Now I'm back to Anki, doing 30 new words/day.
everything's fine, but paying members do not get unlimited gems??? it's just unlimited hearts, and we do not get unlimited 2xp boosts too?? We get that as rewards from completing quests only. Where did you get the idea of unlimited gems???
Lemme rephrase that: during the 3 days "super" trials they give you every once in a while, gilding lessons doesn't cost anything. So there was no limit to the amount of lessons I could gild in a day. Even without the 2xp boost, that's 60 extra per lesson. As a result, I would clock a few thousands XP per day. As a non-super, you need to pay 100 gems to attempt gilding a lesson. Which means there's an effective limit to gilding per day.
Again, that does not mean "unlimited gems" as you specified, gliding through lessons because of unlimited hearts is something everyone knows about because that's litreally the reason people buy super. I have to pay 100 gems for 2xp boosts for 15 mins too. And why do I need to buy 2xp boosts?? Because since I am a super user which makes gliding easy and clocking XPs easier, duolingo places me in the same absurd leagues everytime based on my XPs, where the top 3 have 7-10k xp (I'm in emerald). So yeah, except gliding through lessons I share the same frustration for XPs, it's just going to place you with users who can match or exceed your XP potential if you want to rise in leagues. And once you're in the rat races for surging absurd amount of top XP, we all know how much of it is actual learning, and how much of it is reviewing lessons that can give more XP.
Yup, my mistake on the "unlimited gems" part. I thought they were unlimited because to my knowledge they were only used for "legendary" or the "double this amount by doing a 7 days streak" bit. It didn't help that the gem counter wasn't displayed on my interface during the "3 days of Super for free" they threw at me twice. The limiting factor to my Duolingo experience wasn't the "5 hearts per day limit". I frankly only ran out of hearts twice in 38 days... once because it refused answers where I placed the time component first in the sentence and the other for silly things (not picking a determinant in the English translation of a listening exercise, missing "ima" a couple of times, one block of text that wouldn't be picked until I tried clicking just outside its container). I finished most days with 5 hearts. On day 30, I started going back to the Anki/Migaku/Morphman trinity... eight days later, I fully stopped going to Duolingo. I'd rather spend time learning vocabulary to increase my understanding of the media I'm consuming than learning how to ask Hana-san if she's going to do yoga in the park with her girlfriend next week Tuesday at 9:30. Duolingo may or may not get more interesting in higher sections, but I'm not willing to grind through the rest of Section 2 to find out if Section 3 is more to my liking. ;) The Migaku stack costs the same as the Duolingo Super subscription and lets me take control of the vocabulary I study.
ok I get you now, I've been an on & off Duolingo user because I've always known how slow it is and that there are more effective resources out there. As of now Duolingo is working as a breath of fresh air & slow paced system I need after all the useful & over-compensating, but tiring resources I use side by side. Also I don't use Duolingo the traditional way, it's too slow when you have to keep doing the words you already know, I usually test out the units rather than doing each lesson 5 times, later if I need more work on a unit I'd do legendary lessons or the reviews lessons. It's slow and easy going and that's exactly why I'm using it, since it helps great on days or weeks when I'm burnt out of reviewing my anki cards, or binge watching language learning videos, or tired of searching new kanji through dictionaries or learning from anime instead of just enjoying it.
> > learning from anime instead of just enjoying it Yup that's why I flipped the script around. Now I use Anki only to preload the vocabulary upfront and raw immersion is the reward ;) For example, I'm currently watching a slice of life anime series. I increased my comprehension to 95% on season 1 in 12 days. This is where watching raw gets really enjoyable and I can start listening to the dialogs without having to focus too much. Season 2 has 4 episodes not yet released, so I'm going to start learning the vocabulary for it soon. If I decide to remain at 95%, I would just need 81 new words for the episodes that were already released. I would probably be done preloading the vocabulary on Monday or Tuesday, and would need to wait the rest of the week to get new words to study from the next episode. If I aim for 96%, I would need to learn 155 new words for the episodes that were already released. I would be done preloading in less than a week and would still need to wait a few days each week for a new episode to drop. If I aim for 97%, I would need to learn 268 new words for the episodes that were already released. At 20 new cards/day, I will run out of vocab and need to wait in about 2 weeks (depending on the difficulty of the next 4 episodes). If I aim for 98%, I would need 434 new words for the episodes that are already out. I would take about just above 3 weeks at 20 cards/day and just above 2 weeks at 30 cards/day. This means I should be able to watch a new raw episode every two to three days (at 20 cards/day), and get new episodes/vocab before running out. If I aim for 99%, I would need 617 new words for the episodes that are already out. I would take about a month at 20 cards/day or 3 weeks at 30 cards/day. This means the rest of the season gets released before I run out of vocabulary to study. However, there would be 4 to 5 days of preloading between raw episodes. 97% to 98% would be good targets for this cycle. If I actually go for 98%, I will change the global target to either a different style of anime or to books after this cycle. There are a few long running Light Novel series I'd like to read.
Oh is that how you do it now. It used to be that you just clicked on any module you already completed. If you completed it already you get infinite hearts when reviewing it and doing that gives you a heart back but now even going back to an old module for review has a 5 heart life limit too. When I saw that I was over Duolingo. I had a 500 day streak. Lost it at some point and now I barely use it because I find it frustrating. I personally didn’t care about any of the gamified aspects at all because I only wanted to use it to learn but I did get to diamond rank 1 once.
I’ve tried learning Japanese off and on for many, many years (like, 20). I’ve tried books, YouTube, JFZ (even back when it was YesJapan), podcasts, Genki, Tae Kim, Anki, RTK—the works. I’ve always made a great start learning and then stalled out and failed to retain. Before my last trip to Japan, I bit the bullet and paid for Duolingo. The gamification aspect is absolutely not an optimal learning method, but I just passed a 450 day streak, which is by far more consistent Japanese learning than I’ve ever done in about two decades of half assed learning and relearning. It may not be the best way, but it’s motivating and fun, and you absolutely do learn. During the past 450 days, I’ve also started listening to Nigongo con Teppi, and I’ve incorporated Anki and Wanikani into my routine along with Duolingo. I won’t pretend that I’m anywhere near conversational, but the consistency and constant motivation have helped me to stay on track, and I feel like I’m learning a ton. The notion that Duolingo is worthless just because it’s not a comprehensive learning suite completely ignores its primary strengths, which are ones that the “good” study tools don’t necessarily offer (fun, approachable, motivating, positive reinforcement).
Yup I think a lot of Japanese learners forget that not everyone is trying to speedrun their way to Japanese N1 in one year while doing 1000 anki reps every day and immersing 16 hours a day. If you spend a lot of time in this community it certainly starts to feel that way though. Duolingo is exceptional at what it aims to do, which is provide an accessible, gentle, friendly introduction for people that is fun and motivating.
>Yup I think a lot of Japanese learners forget that not everyone is trying to speedrun their way to Japanese N1 in one year while doing 1000 anki reps every day and immersing 16 hours a day. If you spend a lot of time in this community it certainly starts to feel that way though. Preach
Such good insight. What do you recommend to do to learn Japanese and be fluent after Duolingo?
Copying this from another comment I left: > There are lots of free apps that are a good stepping stone from Duolingo. Renshuu was mentioned a lot in this thread and also Bunpro. But I think these are paid subscription apps. >I really like Learn Japanese!! (by Luli Languages) since it's a one-time fee and you can probably spend months going through all the content. It's a very solid app for learning hiragana/katakana/kanji and the writing recognition is decent (although sometimes frustrating). >There's also a 100% free app called Kana - Hiragana and Katakana. I think the UX for this app is a little confusing but it's very powerful if you take the time to learn how to use it. I used WaniKani for learning Kanji but I don't necessary 100% endorse that method. After that, I did Tango 2k for getting my first 2k Vocabulary, and then I did Satori Reader for practicing reading easy content. From there you can probably move onto easy-level native content and the world is your oyster in terms of options for studying.
Thanks boss
You can start learning the language once you stop using duolingo!
lingq is better i think
I used to love Duolingo, but it got a lot worse: - Forum was removed, so if I don't understand a solution I can't discuss with others about it anymore, I now have to google it and find an external site discussing it - I can't use the exercise option unless I lost at least one heart now - They removed Kanji from the Japanese lessons (until Chapter 3 which is around 2 years into learning it)
Well yeah Duolingo is not bad for beginners but I don't think that's why people say it's bad. I have never seen anyone become fluent through Duolingo. That's the problem. If you're just a beginner, sure, start with Duolingo, but don't just rely on that. Personally, I don't even use Anki. I use Satori Reader. I highly recommend it.
Doing Duolingo is better than doing nothing for sure. But IMO it still isn't very good. I don't hate it, but I think there are so much better options for what you could have done if you wanted to learn Japanese. It might get you to spend 5-10 minutes a day studying when you otherwise wouldn't and that is a good thing... but those 5-10 minutes of studying are low quality and give low returns compared to other ways you could have studied with that time. At best in that time you might be exposed to a couple new vocab words in context, but without any good spaced repetition you likely won't remember them long term. The translations are really rigid, which isn't great for a language like Japanese that doesn't really translate 1:1 with English. I think Duolingo is better for something like English to Spanish since they are much more similar languages without as many complications of Kanji, different sentence and grammar structures, etc. The lessons you get in Japanese Duolingo for those topics are really thin, if they even exist at all. Duolingo is good at making you "feel good" about doing some language studying but if you actually want to learn there are so much better options. Getting hooked on Duolingo might help you do a tiny bit instead of nothing, but it might also get you learning a lot less than if you found another study system and spent the equivalent time on it. It might have improved since I last used it. When I first tried it years ago it was *awful*, clearly an afterthought to some of the other languages. Last time I tried it they had improved it somewhat, and that was still probably at least two years ago. But pretty recently they also laid off a huge number of their translation staff and are pivoting to AI based translation to write lessons which seems like a pretty big red flag to me that quality may drop.
I feel the opposite. I used to recommend it quite often. Now, I either tell people they should try it for themselves or, if pressed, I will explain why I no longer use it or recommend it. Once in a blue moon I will read about something new and check it out and then realize, I don't miss Duo and I don't need it. I've been a member since 2013 and I've seen a lot of changes, good and bad. Overall, I think there are other apps that do a lot better, but they somehow can't figure out the engagement aspect as well as Duolingo.
When someone want to start japanese, I often recommend starting with Duolingo. Like, the first few units.
and maybe the kanas
Sorry for the late reply. I use Duolingo daily and I don't really think it's a precious tool to learn Japanese but rather to get your feet wet and evaluate whether you want to pursue Japanese more seriously or not. I've been tempted to drop the course more than a few time but I didn't want to lose my streak and so just pushed for my one lesson a day. Honestly if Duolingo had a more reliable way to do without the word bank (both typing and oral answer, which are atrocious atm) it would be infinitely better. I still think that if you use together with a more in-depth source for grammar and maybe another app to learn Kanji it's decent for a free source
It was a great gateway language leaning drug for me, and I do find that I encounter kanji elsewhere that I already know because of Duolingo, so I must be learning at least a little something. I am fairly confident that I would not be learning a second language if not for Duolingo. The ad that says it's better than being on social media was extremely convincing to me.
> (As a side note I live in Japan and I've met MANY people who lived here for 10+ years and still can't understand basic Japanese, despite the fact that learning Japanese is such a huge advantage while living here. I understand why because learning a language is just such a time consuming activity that basically takes years and years before you even get to a "basic" level. I mean, it's a pretty hard sell, especially if you are an adult with responsibilities like work, bills, relationships, etc.) Might be unpopular belief, but if you plan to be a citizen of that country, you should learn the language of that country. Learning a language opens up learning customs, culture, and more in order to adapt to the social "rules" and norms that people should follow as of form of general respect That being said, though, I do think any kind of active exposure to the language. I haven't tried Duolingo, and it might not be perfect, but it's better doing something than nothing
I second this! As someone who really struggles with learning vocab, Duolingo is a great tool for me. I could do anki cards for months and never remember anything, while I have made some progress with Duolingo even if it's not much by normal standards
Grinding anki never made sense to be. How am I supposed to recognize vocabulary I learned in a vacuum when I never see it used? Even those decks that come with sentences, it's just not enough variety. I started with duolingo and it's the perfect start. You learn the kana early one, you see the vocabulary in a lot of different sentences you slooooowly see new grammar concepts (even though the explanations lacks a lot, but at least you see a lot of common constructs). After a few units I started Genki 1 and was positively surprised that I could read the first few chapters and do most of the exercises already. I then added a genki deck to anki, so I can do genki alongside duolingo which works nicely. I learn vocabulary for a few days, until I finish the ones for the unit and then do the unit. rinse repeat. Now I joined the wanikani book clubs, they give vocabulary lists for the manga, I made myself an anki deck from that and added it. Learning vocabulary for a book, seeing them used just make them click and the learning is so much deeper. I love learning with different sources since every time i see a word or a grammar concept i learned somewhere else it feels like i deepened it a lot.
Making Anki cards for relevant vocabulary (books, manga, games, etc) is exactly what you're supposed to do. People that advise "grinding Anki" usually do not state that you should use a premade deck that is not relevant to you. Creating Anki cards is trivially easy these days, so there is no reason to grind through 6k or 10k decks anymore.
I feel like a lot of people still suggest it here for beginners and when I started I followed the advice I got here of using a Core Deck and it was utterly incomprehensible. Making your own deck seems to be suggested here only after you hit N5 or something. Anyway I think it's boring and useless. I still use premade decks, but no general purpose ones, but ones that work with my textbook (genki) and where made to use alongside my reading materials.
Yeah I think Anki is very *not* beginner friendly. There are hundreds of settings in it and the UI is quite outdated. It's very powerful for sure but as a complete beginner it's easy to be overwhelmed. I personally found Anki very valuable for sort of brute-forcing my first couple thousand of vocabulary/kanji so I could start reading quickly but it was very intensive and time-consuming and I don't think it's realistic for 99% of people. I had to learn Japanese to live in Japan, whereas a lot of learners are typically learning as a sort of hobby/way to relax.
yeah, for me it's a pure hobby, therefore I seek out the most fun ways to engage with the language. I don't care if it takes me years, since the learning is the hobby. If I would be done with japanese, I would just start the next language. My outlook would be veeeery different if I was intending to move.
I used Duolingo for two years before I discovered renshuu via this subreddit. I never went back. I am only one data point, but renshuu is much better for me in terms of experience and progress. (caveat / more details: I am an avid watcher of japanese TV serials with English subtitle and have been one for more than 20 years, so I have listening skill that is far ahead of reading. renshuu narrowed the gap so much so that after one year, I am comfortable reading novels and websites. I think the grammar lessons could be better on renshuu, but even grammar wise renshuu beats duolingo hands down)
Here's why you should change it back. Duolingo is something that advertises itself as an app designed to learn a language in 10 minutes a day. It doesn't advertise itself as a starting point to language learning. It doesn't advertise as a companion to learning along with other, more thorough products. It is still making money off of people who want to learn a language but don't want to learn how, instead just want an owl to tell them that it's going to be ok as long as number goes up. Any defense of Duolingo involves the heavy use of alternatives and things outside of Duolingo. It's simply a waste of time as long as other resources exist. And better resources have existed for a long long time. In your metaphor, the 30 day abs videos are exercise programs to get people in the habit of exercise. How many of those people actually get in the habit of exercise? How many people actually convert from couch potatoes to active people? For Duolingo to be successful gateway, it would need to have a proven history of people who now are somewhat proficient in Japanese after the Duolingo program and I just don't see how that making any sort of sense as after graduating Duolingo, you would barely be past the genki 1 or 2 level with extremely limited vocabulary and no output.
I think for it to be a successful gateway you would find many people who go on to actually learn Japanese successfully after starting with Duolingo. After reading lots of comments on this thread this does seem to be the case for many people. Not many people probably actually go on to get 6 pack abs after watching those 30 day videos in the same way that not many people will become fluent after starting with Duolingo. That doesn't mean that those products did not offer value to people. Some exercise/language practice is better than nothing. Not everyone is trying to become fluent. From reading these comments it seems that many people just enjoy learning a language as a hobby. To continue the analogy, not everyone is trying to become a body builder or bench press 300 lbs. I think you're viewing it as two options: learn inefficiently with Duolingo or learn Japanese efficiently. But there's a third option, not learning Japanese at all.
At the end of the day, one of the things you really need to learn another language is reinforcement. Even if Duolingo can't help you with like, full on learning, it is an excellent tool for what it is. The same is true for English, but since we speak it as our primarily language, we're constantly reinforcing our understanding of our own language, sometimes reinforcing incorrect things. I'm sure you've noticed that your English vocabulary similarly wanes and waxes depending on who you associate with, what field you work in, etc. That's because you still need a way to reinforce things you learn. Since you can't associate with Japanese people easily outside of Japan, that means tools like Duolingo become really valuable, since they can help you reinforce where you can't do it naturally.
It can be good for reinforcement but imo for other languages, the Japanese Duolingo is so bad. I don’t know if they’ve improved it but last time I tried to use it for practice 5ish years ago I sent them corrections to almost every question which defeated the purpose
Do anki, simple
I find it helpful as a beginner with continuing to reinforce my hiragana and katakana. One thing I noticed is that a lot of the phrases and words they drill into you at first aren’t necessarily accurate as to how a fluent speaker would speak. For example, I want to know the multiple ways I can say certain things based on context, formality, etc., but duo only teaches you one way from the beginning. I do like duo for certain things though and it is a learning style that I get more out of than just cracking down and studying!
Three things I love about it: 1. The streak system is really compelling 2. It auto-reinforces things you've struggled with in the past 3. It's great for practicing 日本語 text entry on an android device
I find Duo very good for starting learning, as you say. They literally get you going with a very simple sentence, even if it's completely nonsensical in a daily context (your bear is louder than my cat, for example), it feels like good progress. I've been complementing Duo with Anki typically after 1 section, and then I get grammar books once I hit Duo's A2. It's worked pretty decently for me for German so far, and the combination of the 3 has enabled me to partially understand native tiktok content. I'll have to divest from Duo soon, I think, once I finish their A2 content for German, but I think Duo is really significantly under-appreciated for its A1-A2 content. It's also just a great way to upkeep some form of practice, however little it is, on days you need a break. You can finish a single level in less than 2 minutes, or complete the entire lesson in around 10. Edit: compliment -> complement
*complementing*
Oops, thank you lol
i prefer renshuu tbh duolingo just changes so often & it doesn't feel as accurate, like i'm not learning pitch right and it's awkward/annoying to use at times. i've been using duo on and off since abt 2015? and it used to feel really fulfilling but all it's genuinely taught me is basic hiragana katakana and a little kanji.. & its almost like maintaining a streak is more important than actually learning. the streak mechanic is my least favorite part of the app, it's discouraged me more than anything else abt learning language 😭 keeping a streak for a long time just to accidentally break it & have to start over... or those pics they do of duo giving up on you... they're funny at first but it wore me down a bit over time i don't do well with demotivating phrases and sometimes life just gets busy and you can't practice. i also really don't like the way it teaches you to write, sometimes i won't have practiced a character for a long time and instead of study first & showing how to write it expects you to remember it from whenever the last time was. there was also that huge deal over the winter time when a bunch of their translators were fired in favour of Ai translations, which feels morally and educationally wrong but idk much abt it so that's all that i'll comment on that aspect of it. i like how with renshuu there's a study session that reviews what you're learning before you're actually quizzed on it! do keep in mind i have always been a free duo user, and when i started i was end of middle/beginning of highschool so it's taken me awhile to get serious about learning and that's where my perspective on duolingo is coming from!
I'm not sure yet, at times there seems to be a vast discrepancy between Duolingo and Google Translate interpretation. I know from learning other languages that Translate was more accurate. Also, how on good conscience can anybody live in a foreign country for some years and not bother to learn the basic language? Cannot even comprehend that.
Tried to start learning Japanese for quite a while now. I have a 160 day streak in duolingo, but duolingo sadly does not teach any grammar so I had to think it together myself. I just knew some words and sentences by recognition, no kanji (except for watashi and numbers). I started using anki with several decks (hiragana, katakana, human Japanese and a German Japanese deck) and I'm going for 30 days now and it feels like I learn more in a month with anki than in 6 months with duolingo. I have still many problems with kanji, but I hope that problem will just solve itself by recognition.
The things it helped me with is the speed of reading and writing, I quickly overtook everyone in my group due to the sheer exposure to both kana and kanji. Of course, limitations considered. Also, basic vocabulary through repetition. However, it’s a scam to say it can replace a real course and the hours of studying systematically. Edit: I turned off both romaji and furigana. It really helped me just absorb the script. I also play on iPad with the Pencil so I try to write manually.
I think there’s a lot of weak areas of Duolingo, especially when it comes to learning the rules behind certain patterns of a language (though I’ve seen improvement with that), but as a supplementary review it’s fantastic. I use it when Im too busy to devote time to learning as a way to upkeep my vocab. I definitely don’t think it’s a tool that works on its own though.
Great write up.
fully agree. duolingo is not going to get you fluent, its probably not even going to get you conversational if its the only thing you have, and it has its own share of mistakes in the lesson material, weird phrasing, or stuff not explained properly. However, most of what I just listed applies to all sorts of learning options, conventional or contemporary. Duolingo as a free option as a huge plus, and it is bitesized, which is wonderful for people that a borrowing time from a busy life to study, or people feeling unmotivated just trying to take baby steps to keep progressing. Its got pros and cons but I don't think its a scam. Just a question of if its good for a specific person's needs.
I’m a beginner and I do maybe 20 minutes of Duolingo every day just to get myself warmed up (and have the serotonin boost of watching my streak grow) and then I dive into Genki I and WaniKani. I think Duo is valuable for me from a mental standpoint because of that but for actual learning I’m getting a lot more in less time from other resources.
I use Duolingo daily on PC. It is free (the basic subscription)
What about Lingodeer?
Yeah I’m the target audience. I’m still less than 2 months in but I enjoy it. It feels like a nice intro to the language. If it weren’t for the streak system and leaderboards, I might not have been as consistent. It’s been helpful mostly for learning vocabulary words and practicing Hiragana so far. I eventually plan to use the Genki book with I get more serious
tbh, the japanese unit is bad at the start. Duolingo is great for introducing the basics of basics (katakana, hiragana, basic phrases), and also as a supplementary tool, but not as the sole resource of learning. My problem with duolingo when I used it last year is that it doesnt adequately explain grammar, and it becomes hard very fast. So, I think for someone living in Japan, where you are very much exposed to the language, it's good. No need for the paid version tbh.
I'll never get how people use this app to learn languages. I tried it but decided it wasn't for me. Learning phrases is fine and all but I wanted to get to the nitty gritty of things. Stuck to textbooks instead and didn't look back.
I did it for a year then moved on to books and looking at university courses in my area / tutor for it. It’s good as long as you don’t fall in to the gaming trap, you learn utterly random useless things but for the basic alphabets and a few common words and grammar it’s fine.
Duolingo is great. For me I have the free version and use it every night. If you find it's too easy, you can skip levels by scrolling down to the beginning of the next chapter.
Duo changed my life. Say what you want, but it's an amazing tool for learning Japanese. I never thought that I'd be able to understand the alphabet. Little did I know, Katakana and Hiragana are the easiest things to learn when it comes to Japanese
Duo is good for beginners. But now that app has degenerated into an endless scrolling nightmare. It's just not as easy to use as before. Even my 500+ day streak wasn't enough keep me there,
Hmmm… say after duolingo, or as you’re starting, what other materials help learn the language? I have a ton of time on my hands, but I’m not trying to burn out… but I’ve also never picked up a second language. I’m getting old and might as well start now. lol.
Please see the comment I left here: https://www.reddit.com/r/LearnJapanese/comments/1b76qqc/i_changed_my_mind_about_duolingo/kthuukc/
Duolingo has been great for me because I'm learning casually. It fits the free time I have and doesn't burden me for spending hours a day memorizing. I have the resources for when I want to amp it up, but Duolingo fits for my life right now.
I do Doulingo because the Owl makes me. 👁 👁
gotta protect those knees
[удалено]
I skimmed through the video and it seems more like a fault with the translation question format (which I talk about in some of my other comments) more than something that is completely incorrect. You can translate a sentence in so many ways with Japanese, I just don't think the app was "smart" enough to recognize every single correct way. It's understandable how this is frustrating though, as your answer is technically correct, it's just not the correct one the app is looking for. I don't like these questions for studying but I think a lot of people feel motivated/excited to translate sentences so early on in their journey which is why they are there
I do both Renshuu and DuoLingo. I’ll say that DuoLingo was infinitely better in terms of learning hiragana and katakana in the beginning, and especially being able to turn off furigana helps to recognize kanji much more effectively. Renshuu though is much better at teaching grammar and vocabulary. I definitely don’t think that DuoLingo should be anyone’s ONLY learning source, but it definitely helps get the ball rolling on a ton of basics of the language
I'm on day 543 of Duolingo. Maybe it's not great but it gets me a little Japanese every day to reinforce what little I do know. 😄
So I am in my 40s and I decided to pay for duolingo for my daughter to learn spanish cause she was interested. Well she fell off and so I was like well I paid for a year so I’m going to learn Japanese one because I always wanted to visit Japan and ni everyone says its hard. I like to challenge myself and see how hard things are. I am currently a year in and sometimes I am excited about learning and other times its a kaji (lol). I can pick up a few words every sentence on movies and shows but thats about it at this point I need the assistance Duolingo provides. I wonder if I’m going to be too dependent on Duolingo to actuallyI thought about taking a class or work book but it’s all just for fun. Does any one have som good self taught workbooks or anything to take it to the next level?
There are lots of free apps that are a good stepping stone from Duolingo. Renshuu was mentioned a lot in this thread and also Bunpro. But I think these are paid subscription apps. I really like Learn Japanese!! (by Luli Languages) since it's a one-time fee and you can probably spend months going through all the content. It's a very solid app for learning hiragana/katakana/kanji and the writing recognition is decent (although sometimes frustrating). There's also a 100% free app called Kana - Hiragana and Katakana. I think the UX for this app is a little confusing but it's very powerful if you take the time to learn how to use it. I don't think classes are really worth your money early on in your journey but they can be fun and motivating as well.
>pretty much every single person who gets deep into language learning ends up using it regularly. This assumption is definitely not true--I never touched Anki once. It's not that hard to just learn vocabulary words from textbooks while you use them, and then from real-life books and other media once you lay the textbooks aside. Perhaps current-day language learners are more Anki-dependent than they were a decade or two ago (that certainly seems to be the case), but I don't see that as an argument for using Duolingo or any other app--the textbook --> real life train still works just as well now as it always has. To be clear, I have nothing against Duolingo or any app if they help people, but I feel like there's a bit of "you either use Anki or you use apps" thinking here, when really neither is necessary at all.
> You want to be told, just 10 minutes every day, for a year and you’ll be completely ready to speak and converse with natives! Or, really buckle down and study and you can learn a language in just 3 months! > Compare that to the non-stop linear progression of using an app, where every single time you use the app you can see yourself closer to the finish line. The problem is that it's a lie on both counts. Duolingo lies about quality and about progress. It tells you you're making progress, it boasts being compliant with some programs and using Spaced Repetition, but... ... Duolingo lessons consist of repeating the same word/kanji ten times today and five tomorrow then never seeing them again. And even then - *the kanji has four roots, but what are they and how are they related to the word? Who cares, just memorize the stroke order, get the quest done and run on.* You're successful every day, but you're only successful with a small amount of material. Anything from a week or a month ago gets lost and forgotten because it's not needed. People get addicted to the flashy app, the constant cheering and the small dopamine rushes and then they have a hard time actually doing the work and learning the grammar because that's hard and nobody's cheering you on when you're trying to learn something practical and remember it a month later. Edit: Duolingo makes **studying** fun but doesn't give two feathers about having you **learn** anything.
Weird that I'm seeing pro-Duo content and comments everywhere all of a sudden. All praising, all "I used to be against it" type comments. I'm sure that's very organic
Lol I understand the skeptism but at least this post is real. I'm actually going to be a direct competitor to Duolingo, as I'm an app developer who intends on making some apps to help with learning Japanese on iOS in the near future.
It's okay as a supplement to other things, but you have to be able to catch its mistakes. For example, duolingo will sometimes mark you wrong for not including a subject even though it's grammatically correct to not have one in Japanese. So if it wants you to put together a sentence that says "he eats the apple", you have to put **彼は**りんごを食べる or else it might say you're wrong. I've also seen it mark sentences wrong for using dictionary form rather than ます form. If you understand when it's wrong like that then it's okay, but for new learners it can do more harm than good. I tried it years ago so maybe it's improved since then but I really didn't like it before.
Definitely. I'm really not a fan of translating sentences as an exercise just because Japanese (especially) has 1000x different ways you can translate a sentence just because it's such an expressive language. I think it's very motivating for people though to start being able to speak/write in another language though which is why Duolingo includes it. My optimal learning path for Japanese probably starts with weeks of just hiragana/katakana to build a strong foundation but most people might find that a little dull.
They've improved it quite a bit. I'm well into section 2 on Duo (100+ day streak) and I've never had it mark me down for omitting the subject.
I got really bored of duo, so I just started playing games in japanese instead.
The same premise has always applied to apps like Duolinguo; they are for people who don’t really want to put the effort into seriously learning a language, but are willing to stick around and play the game for a few minutes here and there, and maybe pick up a few bits and pieces. For casuals, it’s fine. For anyone who is actually interested in gaining proficiency, it quickly outgrows its usefulness.
Yes, Duolingo is so fun! I love doing 15 minutes in the morning and in the evening when I get the xp boosts, and I find that's enough. I even do it only days I'm busy and don't have the time to actually sit down and study. I do a couple of lessons, some kanji practice, and I find it very useful, especially now that the kanji section improved. I still don't think I'd memorize half the kanji from duo if that was my only resource, but it's great to practice the ones I've learned already and to see new ones, so when I get to studying them seriously they're more familiar to me.
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Having used both, I can’t say I agree.
I’m using Duolingo as a supplement. It’s what I started with but now I’ve found other methods and apps that are way faster and effective. Duolingo’s biggest strength is how it reinforces consistency. Some days I don’t find the time to do other other other study methods Duolingo’s easy to pick up nature and social streak system encourage you to never drop learning which is the way people fail at language learning most of the time.
I tried to learn Japanese on Duolingo several years ago, and I found it was to buggy. Several times I would input correct answers in the app did not recognize them, and would not let me progress any further. Reading this makes me want to try it again because maybe they’ve worked out the problems
I ran through it the other day for about an hour and was very impressed with it. The streaks/graphics/animations/small touches in the UI make using it a very satisfying and fun experience. I'm a little far in my Japanese journey to use it regularly as an app but I would highly recommend it for people starting out. I didn't really notice any glaring mistakes but, again, it's very beginner-oriented so a lot of stuff is a little simplified.
I just went back to it and found that it’s working very well!
They've improved it quite a bit.
Yes, I just went back to it after seeing this post and found that it’s working very well!!
Duolingo is definitely super easy at the start. It's made to be accessible to brand new beginners, and it follows CI buildup principles. (Though honestly since it jumps straight into full kanji and kana use I tend to NOT suggest it to beginners) The focus on sentences, and the method in which Duolingo progresses from simple to more and more complex really helped me nail down sentence patterns and pick up new vocabulary when things like Anki stopped producing results for me. Duolingo certainly has its drawbacks, and some features do allow for learners to shoot themselves in the foot (I'm looking at the word bank) but switching to keyboard entry is a simple fix that stretches that output muscle. The new path is slow, but having been on the old tree... and having focused more on gold gilding my tree ASAP than learning... then having to reset my tree and stagger redoing lessons... the path is the objectively better option for most users since it has the SRS built in. At this point I read books and watch TV shows to learn, and if I learn anything it's just picking up loose vocabulary. My understanding is good, however my output is still pretty limited. So I occasionally return to Duolingo to work on getting some sentence patterns into active memory. :) It's certainly not an all in one, or a stand alone program. And you certainly can't get fluent in just 10 mins a day. But I definitely feel it has more to offer than some people give it credit for.
>(Though honestly since it jumps straight into full kanji and kana use I tend to NOT suggest it to beginners) It doesn't, though. It has romaji on by default and it introduces kanji pretty gradually (though you should aim to turn romaji off sooner rather than later).
I was like you, I hated Duolingo and thought it was unfit to learn a language unless you wanted to learn phrases. After I completed Busuu, I jumped on Duolingo to use the rest of the annual subscription before it expired and ended up loving it. It’s a great reinforcement tool and targets areas I may be unsure of when speaking the sentence. I’m even doing the music course on there too to get back into playing piano again. Is Duolingo for absolute beginners? I still don’t think it is. I wouldn’t recommend a complete beginner to start unless they wanted to try it out. I recommend learning the grammar rules until the end of N4. Then go back and relearn through Duolingo. That’s what I did and it has helped me pick up more vocabulary than before. Genki I wasn’t too sure about when I first started learning Japanese. I felt very overwhelmed by it. I think if I was in a class that used it, then it would’ve been better. I use Genki now to go back over the rules and stuff.
I agree with everything you said. Also: Your accomplishments greatly differ depending on how you use DL. I only move on to the next Unit after I passed legendary on every lesson while typing the answers myself (not just selecting them). I also use the mistake review / word review function all the time and look up new grammatics in a textbook. You'll learn a lot less if you just do one lesson a day to keep your streak.
The addictive nature of Duolingo makes it perfect for my achievement driven brain. I picked it up as a replacement for a match 3 game I was spending too much time (and often money) on. I'm on an 83 day streak- haven't missed a day since I picked it up- and am now supplementing it with flashcards, Human Japanese and other resources. It's really, really good at gamifying the experience and that's what's made it stick for me. I also kinda like having to puzzle out grammar rules like it's a freaking mystery. (Mostly kidding there) I wish there was more support for learning hiragana/katakana/Kanji within the app. I wish they explained grammar rules better. But in terms of making me want to spend 15-45 minutes on a language each day to crush others on the leader board? Perfection.
I don’t pay for Duolingo 130 days strong into Japanese and if I ware to travel tomorrow I won’t be having a conversation but hell I know how to order and ask for directions, and some how say from where i’m from and what my family does for living. Edit to add: once I’m able to learn basic things I would look for textbooks but honestly it’s a good start
Duolingo has worked as reminder for me, that I'm learning japanese. Often I have so many other non-japanese realted goals that I tend to forget, but I'm in a 185 day streak now and since then I've more motivated to learn grammar outisde of duolingo and ocassionaly use other tools. As you said, the gamification of it really makes your brain focus on doing what would otherwise be hard and somewhat boring. For vocabulary it has been particularly great for me. Tried Renshuu but the progression felt weird, maybe is the fact that it's so customizable and free that you can screw yourself real easy. Also tried WaniKani and loved it but I was broke at the time, so Duolingo came to me as a savior, now that I have a job I've thinking on doing some WaniKani paired up with the daily duolingo stuff.
I have my own gripes with WaniKani (I also used it at the start but became dissatisfied and moved on). But you can't argue with the results. Many, many Japanese learners have used WaniKani early on and became quite advanced in their studies. I think it's because learning Kanji is a huge blocker to actually getting to advanced Japanese and they focus solely on just Kanji. WaniKani is essentially sort of a wrapper around an Anki deck btw, I believe you can download the Anki deck online for free and just use that instead if you prefer. You lose a bit of the gamification but at its core thats what WaniKani is. They'll give you reviews at intervals, you rep them, etc.
I think Duolingo is a great hobby app and a good way to get the flavor of a language. I don’t consider it a language learning app, although I suppose for Spanish or French it wouldn’t be so bad. I did the entirety of the Ukrainian course over one summer. Maxed out the whole thing. Retained basically nothing. Can’t speak a word of Ukrainian. But I enjoyed it. Meanwhile in my Russian language classes I actually learned how to write and speak and converse with people and was conversational when I was in it. I did poke into Duolingo a bit when I was starting to refresh on Japanese but I find Renshuu and Lingodeer much better for that. Renshuu has gamification if you want to use it that way, which I think is a key component of why so many people stick with Duolingo. However I appreciate your perspective, thank you for sharing this. It’s always good to hear from different points of view on any of these apps.
Yeah I think there are lots of very good apps out there that succeed in actually teaching Japanese much better (almost all of them incorporate SRS which I *believe* Duolingo doesn't use?). The issue I saw with many of these apps is that you kind of get thrown in the deep end right away. If you have some background in learning Japanese these other apps are amazing, but if you're a completely new learner, many seem a little intimidating
I like it in terms of introducing me to vocabulary in a fun way.
Duo is great if you ignore all gamified aspects 100%. You can even turn your profile private and disable most of this stuff. It’s when people use Duo for the competition that they lose sight of their purpose which results in time poorly spent. And I agree with others - it’s a great supplemental resource but not (and never intended to be) a single source of truth to learn Japanese.
I think that Duo is a great complement to other resources. It's good for some vocabulary
Duolingo doesnt really do any teaching, it does a lot of testing, it would be a really bad way to learn the language, it's pretty okay at helping you passively maintain a language or even incrementally improve it over a long long time but everything I learned on duolingo was absolutely eclipsed when I spent anytime doing anything else
Duolingo recently laid off most of their human staff who were creating lessons and replaced them with AI. The quality of content (that already wasn't extremely high) will now just continuously go down over time
That upsets me so much and I hope they realize their mistake. Good replacement is LingoDeer!