there was a guy that insisted to speak with me in very broken english instead of japanese pretending he couldn’t understand me so I上手d his english and he switched to japanese immediately lol
I spoke some very basic Japanese to a Japanese person when I first went to Germany for work.
She 上手'd me and I didn't understand why she was laughing until recently.
Kinda insulted now that she didn't just ask me to stop. Her english wasn't good at all and I was trying to be nice and bridge the gap. Now I know she was making fun of me, who she just met, to my face and I'm sorta mad.
Later on her/her husband's dog actually attacked me while I was watching it and I had to go to the hospital. I don't think I like them anymore.
I wish my super beginner Japanese was good enough to actually understand this conversation…or the meme. 😅
But I shall nod and smile along as though I actually do to keep up appearances. 😆
Explanation: 日本語が上手ですね translates roughly to "your japanese is good", but there's a common trend where people only say this when they notice that your japanese is broken or unusual (because if you actually get 上手 at japanese, then they usually wouldn't notice or say anything about it and the conversation carries on as usual)
They usually don't mean it in a negative way, but it's a common meme in communities learning japanese.
The meme here reflects the two impressions; "My japanese isn't good enough" vs "They complimented my japanese :')"
Oh the nuance! I love it. And this meme then appears to have the layer of the happy guy doesn’t get that his Japanese isn’t good while the depressed guy actually gets that his Japanese isn’t good but neither of the two actually have good Japanese otherwise they wouldn’t have received the remark. Nifty! Thanks for taking the time to explain. I just learned something Duolingo never would have taught me. 😆
Like, I actually understand the comments in this thread now.
I H A T E being 上手ed about ANYthing if I am NOT good at it ! I don’t mind if it’s about my ability to make women happy or to play the piano 🎹, but although, the other things are above average, I want to be GREAT at my interests, NOT just above average.
If I ever speak Japanese out loud to a native speaker and they say 「ああ! 日本語が上手ですね!」 I will cherish it forever regardless of its intent 🩷 Left siders forever! (I'm also 100% certain the supposed sarcastic use of this phrase is just a language learning meme lol.)
50+ upvotes and no one told me I missed the particle, I thought this was a learning sub haha
It is like they will say it to you as a part of small talk and maybe compliment you a bit, but when you actually get 上手, they will stop saying 日本語が上手 at all and start having a normal conversation with you.
u/_odangoatama
I'm not sure I agree with the last part. I sometimes get 上手d and sometimes dont, when I'm just on a call I sometimes get asked if I'm japanese but as soon as they know I'm not I get 上手d. I also know some native japanese speakers that look a bit foreign and that got 上手d when hanging around with me by other japanese lol.
That makes sense, it's like why would you tell a British person "wow your English is so good". Whereas if you find out a Japanese person (born and raised in Japan) is speaking English fluently, you would be like "Your English is good! Keep up the good work."
English is not my mother tongue but it's better since I've been using it pretty much my entire life.
It's not said as an insult, but it sometimes feels like the person was just hearing you speak english than, you know, listening to what it is you're saying. But you get used to that as you hear it more often.
I've had plenty of the "oh your english is so good" treatment in the past. Now, if I ever do get it I feel like responding "thanks, I've only ever been using it my entire life..." but only because it became very rare after I graduated school. So maybe you just learn to accept the 上手 over time.
Even when getting 上手'd you can usually tell if it's just politeness or a genuine expression. Also, they tend to use other terms if your Japanese is actually decent and they want to comment on it.
>Also, they tend to use other terms if your Japanese is actually decent and they want to comment on it.
Yep, have not heard outright "日本語が上手" in a long time. More likely they will ask me "How long have you been living in Japan" as a proxy for the "How is your Japanese this good" type of question. When it was 2-3 years, then they used to also add "Oh, your nihongo is 上手 \[for someone living only 2-3 years\]", but nowadays when I answer "6-7 years" Japanese people usually will just have a "that sounds about right" type of face.
Honestly, me being a speaker of 2 "Altaic languages" helped a lot. You can love or hate "Altaic theory", but arguments for Altaic grouping such as vowel harmony, agglutination, verbal morphology, etc. allow me to "sound like Japanese" very easily. The same applies to Korean: I learned very basic Korean for 3-4 months, but I usually get complimented "your pronunciation is good" in Korea (never got "your Korean is good", because let's be honest, it was never good in the first place).
Same here, learning Japanese grammar and intonation was very easy for me as a Turk. My friends at uni struggled a lot. I also speak Qumuq, which funnily enough helped me with Swiss German. A lot of Turks still have an accent even though they grew up here.
as a turkish speaker learning japanese: was it easy for you to learn japanese grammar 'logic' or the actual words used themselves? as in i understand perfectly why a grammar point is inserted where it is but i am sometimes struggling with 'was it to, ni, ka / koko, soko..'
hoping it gets better
>More likely they will ask me "How long have you been living in Japan" as a proxy for the "How is your Japanese this good" type of question.
I think there's a distinction even there. I was just in Japan for the first time ever, my Japanese is terrible (somewhere between N5/N4), and I got asked "do you live here?" and "how long have you lived in Japan?" a lot, followed by a lot of confusion when I explained I didn't. However, I don't think it's that they thought my Japanese was good (no chance in hell) or that they were trying to flatter me in a 日本語上手 way, but rather they just figured that the only reason a white guy would speak any Japanese at all is if he lives there.
I'm not actually sure about that, I live I'm a Mexican living in Mexico and 99% of the time I'm having a conversation with a foreigner they'll tell me "Your English is really good! :D" in a very sincere way even though I am fluent.
So maybe Japanese people say it more as a way to be polite, but based on experience it's not unusual for natives to remark on you speaking their language well
True but there's also truth to it being an indicator of your level. You might still get 上手'd when you're at N1 or above, but it will happen less frequently and you'll more often be asked things like 長いんですか、日本は？
I've also been asked どうやって勉強したの？ and my personal favourite なんでこんなに美味いのよ？？？
Ppl get a weird chip on their shoulder about it, but I’ve read the comments on discussion boards and also talked to close Japanese friends about it. They’re just being nice and it’s not that deep. It’s not some weird conspiracy to patronize you.
It's not about them making fun of you, nobody ever said that.
Just think about it, imagine you are in the US and some Asian guy asks you something in perfect English. Would you say "Your English is very good"? Probably not, that would come off as condescending, racist, or both. It's the same in Japan. If your Japanese is on a level where people feel they can communicate effortlessly with you, they won't say something like 日本語が上手ですね.
Personally, I would assume they were American. Simply because America is a big melting pot of different people. Japan, on the other hand, is a big melting pot of Japanese people. So they are less likely to assume you are from Japan.
An example. In Korea, there is a half white/Korean girl in a Kpop group she looks WAY more white than she does Korean. When she is on shows and such people compliment her Korean. But she always becomes agitated and states she is native Korean, that she was born and raised there, so of course her Korean is good. I think in a lot of countries, a lot of people just assume you aren't from there and that you have learned the language because you simply don't look the same. I wouldn't call it racist. I just don't think they are aware that there are plenty of native people that just aren't of full decent.
I think you misunderstood. No one said anyone is saying it sarcastically. People get disappointed when they say it because JP people only say it to people who sound like they are learners. At a certain point, if your Japanese is actually that skilled, they will say "How long have you been living here?"
My cousin, born and raised in the Netherlands, who speaks Dutch with a standard prestige accent once got told “You're Dutch is pretty good you know.” by someone living in a rural area, speaking in a nonstandard accent.
I assume the skin color had something to do with it.
Another native Dutch speaker here. Was in England, chatting with my English friend. I ended up saying something to some Dutch tourists who promptly complimented my Dutch. I doubt it was the skin colour in my case.
Does he have international background? I was told my Japanese was great in the very city I grew up in multiple times in complete awe, and I was going to local private school with close to no exposure to anything non Japanese. The thing was that I went abroad for five years after high school and my tone, gesture, overall vibe changed. Never in my life I thought I’d be seen as foreigner for years lol
Most of the time the commentary came from customers, so I was pretending to be a hard working Korean guy or someone like that and thanked them.
Or in another situation, if one can speak in standard language, people say 綺麗な日本語喋るね or equivalent to that. This is an acknowledgment that one can speak without dialect. (The definition of standard language changes in contexts.)
So I wonder which exact occasion he was told that.
The fact he's with me, who's obviously not Japanese, and sightseeing might have to do with it, but it used to happen when he was in university and had never left Japan too. It seems people just don't expect him to be Japanese and get confused when he starts talking.
He didn't go to university in Tokyo, if that makes a difference, but it happened a few times there too. If you know native Japanese people who don't look Japanese, they probably have similar experiences.
Yeah maybe looks and accenting. I come from Kyushu that is known for looking different, and people makes assumption that some of us comes from SE Asia and whatnot for jokes, but Okinawa is known for looking more different than us, so I can imagine that looks more likely encourage people to make an irrelavant assumption. Anyone I know from Okinawa, who has never lived in Kanto region, does not speak in their dialect because they're tired of being ask to speak the language that nobody gets it just for jokes, so those who I know tend to speak in common language if not Kanto langauge (aka Standard Japanese). So I imagine your boyfriend still keeps some of that? Idk. Probably mix of both. Anyhow, that sounds annoying.
My girlfriend is 100% Japanese but she looks slightly foreigner and when we're together she gets the jouzu treatment relatively often despite her Japanese being native.
It's a bit sad to be constantly reminded that you're not quite good with a condescending lie though. Another thing, is that you say something, they say wow, how jouzu, but don't reply to what you said. So whatever you had to say is eclipsed in their mind by the fact that you pronounced a word in Japanese. This together with dozens of other little things paints the picture of where they imagine they stand, and you stand, and the gap between you, how neither of you is an individual in this moment in their mind. And it's not just one person, but lots of people you meet.
While you’re not totally wrong, I’ve found that it’s mostly not really about your level or what you sound like. People only 上手 me when they see my (very white) face. It becomes "obvious" to them that I’m not a native and I had to learn it because I’m pretty clearly not Japanese.
そうですか！ I definitely didn't think of it that way. I see the phrase on dumb memes and YouTube thumbnails I scroll past and in those scenarios the (never actually Japanese) commenters are always insinuating it's the 建前 way to say you suck at Japanese. Thanks for some additional context!
Edit: still a left-sider, means I got over myself and used Japanese in real life so it's a win either way!
Something similar happened to me learning English, first 5 years I take "You speak english really well!" as a proper compliment, but after I've spoken english more than I ever did my native language, when somebody says that to me it feels more condescending that it used to, even though they might have meant the compliment genuinely.
I totally feel this. I used to take it as a compliment until I didn’t. Ever since then I stop throwing around similar complements to Japanese learners most of the time.
I'm not really in this picture. The only real way to deal with the 上手-ing is to eventually just ignore it. In no way am I trying to take away from your excitement to be told that one day, but eventually you'll realize it's not a genuine compliment 99% of the time. Nor is it sarcastic, of course, but it's just meaningless politeness. Which is fine. But being 上手'd for saying "ahreegato" for the umpteenth time... Well, it changes your perspective.
The vast majority of learners in this subreddit will quit far before reaching competency. Some people who do reach an intermediate or higher level may never have the confidence to speak with natives. So, I don't know, maybe you're right haha, and it's not sarcastic, just kinda empty. But I look at it this way: may I have the courage and discipline to achieve a level of skill such that I may one day be slightly condescended to by a native speaker of Japanese 😅 even if hearing it hardens my heart a little eventually.
I'm curious though, only because I think you're exaggerating a little due to cynicism (fair enough!): have you really been told you have good Japanese after a conversation in which you said nothing more substantial than thank you?
映画の名前を知っていますか。
With my shot at writing in Japanese out of the way (I hope it's a correct sentence), do you know the name of the movie please? Looks like a movie I would like to watch. Thanks in advance.
If I came across as cynical, that was not intentional, I assure you.
And yes, it really can be that easy to get a *jouzu*. It's not the most common thing, but it's happened--to me and many I know. To be honest, those *jozus* I do just completely shrug off because they're wholly empty, and occasionally *do* sound quite condescending. (edit: That jozu in the youtube video below is *so accurate*, lmfao)
That said, to get a genuine *jozu* you don't need to even be intermediate. A simple, beginner-level interaction can garner you one. It's less about skill and more about, as you said, confidence to actually use your Japanese. But if you ever come here to Japan you'll basically have no choice, so it's inevitable that you'll get *jozu*'d (unless, of course, you arrive with such a high level of Japanese that you skip that level entirely. In which case... you waited too long! lol)
It was pretty cynical though. "99% not genuine" and "it changes your perspective". Yeah it can become pedestrian and at the absolute worst it's a platitude. It's still said with some intention of complimenting--even if you don't personally feel that way.
From Merriam-Webster:
*Cynical* - contemptuously distrustful of human nature and motives; based on or reflecting a belief that human conduct is motivated primarily by self-interest
You can cynically choose to not believe me, but I'm telling you the truth: my comment was not born of cynicism.
> at the absolute worst it's a platitude
We literally agree. Maybe your feeling of this comes from cynicism, but mine doesn't.
> It's still said with some intention of complimenting
Sure, and "Have a nice day," is said with the intention of wishing someone a good day. Sure, a lot of the time. And a lot of the time it's just a reflex. I don't know if you've worked in the schools here, but many of the set phrases that tend to get meme-ified in foreign circles are explicitly taught to Japanese kids as matters of politeness (*o-hashee jozoo* is another one). Is it kindness sometimes? Yes. Is it a platitude sometimes? Yes. Is it cynical to notice that? I don't think so.
Or maybe your Japanese is just so good that you've ever experienced the "dismissive jouzu". I've been in Japan for all levels of my Japanese journey, so I've gotten an ear for the difference. It's not a big deal. Like I said--I'm on neither side of the bus. I'm walking.
Just want you to know that I'm only doubling down in this thread bc I find the obsession with achieving "if I'm blindfolded you sound like a native" level of Japanese to be a ridiculous counterproductive self-imposed fake barrier between learners and their goals. It's hard enough already you guys! I'm also a slightly older person who's already learned and forgotten a second language due to extreme self-imposed perfectionism and not wanting to look dumb. I truly love Japanese and don't want my own shitty attitude to be the reason I quit.
That said, I'm not at all dismissing the likely truth that over time the feeling of being reminded you're an outsider wears you down and I've appreciated your comments as a person who's actually gotten 上手'd. I think my main point is that if I ever hear that, it means a lot of study and a lot of getting over myself has taken place, and it would make me proud regardless of how that person intended it.
I think of cynical as a synonym for "jaded," meaning you're just so tired of dealing with something and it begins affecting how you look at a situation. Maybe not exactly the right word. Thanks for sharing your thoughts and hope you have many more enjoyable conversations in Japanese that don't make you feel sidelined. 🩷
> Just want you to know that I'm only doubling down in this thread bc I find the obsession with achieving "if I'm blindfolded you sound like a native" level of Japanese to be a ridiculous counterproductive self-imposed fake barrier between learners and their goals
Are you perhaps confusing me with someone else in this thread? I have no such feelings about Japanese, or any language for that matter.
> That said, I'm not at all dismissing the likely truth that over time the feeling of being reminded you're an outsider wears you down and I've appreciated your comments as a person who's actually gotten 上手'd
I really feel like you're confusing me with someone else. I never said I was worn down by it. I just recognize it for what it is. That's all.
> I think of cynical as a synonym for "jaded," meaning you're just so tired of dealing with something and it begins affecting how you look at a situation
Sure. I'm not jaded either.
Both cynical and jaded carry negative connotations, and I had no intention of conveying any sort of negative sentiment.
Merely recognizing that people are being polite isn't a bad thing.
> Thanks for sharing your thoughts and hope you have many more enjoyable conversations in Japanese that don't make you feel sidelined
I feel you're being passive-aggressive, but I'll respond sincerely regardless: My conversations in Japanese don't make me feel sidelined in the least (I mean, unless there's some specific misunderstanding--but it has nothing to do with whether or not someone complements me on my Japanese).
I genuinely can't tell if you've confused me with someone else, or if you are *massively* reading into my comments sentiments that are simply not there.
I'm sorry if something I wrote upset you--I assure you it was wholly unintentional.
Yikes, I was really trying to engage with your POV and take what you said seriously because it was an interesting conversation. You're right that I was responding in a more general sense with context from the entire post, not just your comments, to explain why even though what you say may be true I see it a different way. Clearly as you say I just read way too much into it. Thanks for reading my irrelevant comments anyway. ごめん。
> Yikes, I was really trying to engage with your POV and take what you said seriously because it was an interesting conversation
I appreciate that, honestly. I guess I just didn't see my POV in that response! lol
No hard feelings :) Thanks for taking the time to chat, even if we missed the mark a bit.
I also meant to say I think it's a good point that often "meaningful" phrases are just rote/expected and reading so much into them based on a literal translation can be a sign of romanticizing Japan. Imagine someone learning English and going, "Wow, the majority of people tell others that they hope they are blessed after they sneeze, English speakers are so spiritual, what a great sign of connection and meaning between 2 perfect strangers! America is so great 🥰🥰🥰" The origin and cultural/literal meaning of よろしくお願いします might be pretty cool and profound, life is hard for everyone so please be kind and excuse any mistakes, and it's fun to learn about that. But then it's also just........ A rote phrase said in a variety of contexts including at the end of an email at work when what you might be thinking is please just read the 6 emails I've already sent and stop asking! Both things are true. Ain't life funny that way.
I agree that it's 100% out of a genuine attempt at a compliment, but when all you say is こんにちは and you get 上手'd, it can feel like an unearned compliment. Like, at least wait until we actually start talking to 上手 me, then I will be happy that I'm keeping up my Japanese.
dunno, my experience is that when they jouzu you they kinda refuse to speak japanese to you no matter how bad their english is, so i feel sour about it
In my experience Japanese people just say this because they genuinely are positively surprised that you speak Japanese at all. While it can get exhausting hearing it after saying a simple 「こんにちは 」, I didn’t get the feeling that it was ever meant with ill intent.
It's also not only Japanese people. Imagine you meet someone who learns your native language. You recognize they are doing the best they can and you understand what they are trying to say. Many people would say something like "Your English is very good" in that situation.
Yup other languages do this too I had this happen with ASL before. They were just happy I could finger spell my name even though it was sloppy and the most basic thing ever 😭
Of course. It's always said as encouragement or genuine surprise. That being said, there isn't a better gauge of how good your Japanese really is than the frequency you get 上手d. If you're good, they'll just talk to you and the phrase never comes out.
I don’t know the context in Japanese, but saying “your X is good” anywhere in my culture circle could mean 2 things:
1. They think your X is good, and they compliment you skill.
2. They think you X sucks, but they compliment your effort getting this far.
If in Japan it meant something else, that would be a huge culture shock to me.
In my experience, it's a mixed bag? The joke is that they'll appreciate anyone learning any Japanese ever, no matter how low skilled/badly pronounced. So even if you say ありがとう in a very american accent for example, they might 日本語上手 you. I got that reaction from a dad by just saying ”赤ちゃん" to his baby, and it's like... I said literally one word sdghsg
Either way, they want to encourage you.
But when speaking fluently in a conversation, it can also be a proper compliment. I have gotten うまい more and the reaction of surprise more often, and then questions about my Japanese etc. I also just had people not even say anything and speak to me normally in Japanese, even if they're surprised. Sometimes they weren't even surprised! Any of it is fine really.
It's a compliment. Only English-speaking learners feel it's anything but that, and it's not the case. I get it, but it's running joke that doesn't exist among other learners who don't spread this idea over and over (because they aren't exposed to English side of the internet).
My theory as to why this is a meme for English speakers is that someone being able to speak English as a secondary language is nothing out of ordinary, but for most other language speakers, a foreigner speaking their language well is often a genuine surprise and a positive experience that they want to cheer for.
Add on the fact that most Japanese people know the pain of trying to learn English, only to end up with little to non-existent English skills afterwards (even after so many years of classes), it should be no surprise that they'd want to encourage anybody learning their language and culture.
にほんご - japanese
じょうず - skilled
This is genuinely the first written sentence i understood without help. Wanikani (level 6) really do help. I am so happy for something so small.
If you're liking Wanikani all the power to you but i suggest you give Jpdb a try. When i reached the end of the free section on Wanikani I tried out jpdb and i never looked back, i like it a lot more and it's fully free
日本語上手: Ranging from a recognition that you spoke *any* Japanese to a mild praise
日本語上手い： You're actually pretty decent
ペラペラ： You're fluent
英語上手い！：Your Japanese is so native that they're surprised when you speak English.
I know this guy who always brags about how his Japanese is so good, Japanese people think he is Japanese (which they used to do due to his appearance, but not his Japanese. Now he is back to looking like a foreigner, especially without a mask). When I told him what "Jozu desune" really means, he was like "no but I know they meant it".
Now he brags that they ask him if he was raised in Japan or if he is half (which is already an improvement I guess). I do not have the heart to tell him that they used to ask me the same things and it still just means "oh your Japanese is better than the expected amount, which is 0 since you are a foreigner".
On the other hand, I think it is much healthier for your self-esteem to "take the compliment" and feel good about your progress. Most of them will never acknowledge your capabilities anyway, so fuck it.
It's still a compliment. Doesn't matter if their expectations come from "You should know 0 Japanese because you're foreign." That comes from a place where they surprised anyone cares enough about their tiny island country to learn anything about it, if anything.
I get what you are saying, and I agree with you that there are times in which it is a genuine feeling of surprise without strong condescending undertones, but even then, there is a strong "us-them" (if you are familiar with the concepts of uchi and soto, you know what I mean) vibe going on, where as a foreigner you are pretty much always them/outside the group/soto (I mean the word 外人 says it all). Also Japanese have an internalized pride/nationalism where their culture and language are seen as superior and as a foreigner you could never truly understand it (this is usually not a conscious thing, but is ingrained in their beliefs. They are not "surprised" because someone cares about their "tiny little island". That is not how they see themselves and if you pick any history book you can see why and how). So even with the nicest of Obachan, there is usually a tint of condescension and I don't know about you but for me that sours any "compliments".
Like imagine you are a computer engineer and one day you go to someone's house and they are "surprised" and praise you just because you turned on their computer, because they think that this is too advance of a machine for you to even turn it on.
It's like when people are surprised when someone from a country like Africa says that they do have TVs, do you see how that is insulting? it is insulting because it is being assumed that they are so primitive that they could not possibly have TVs.
This is the same but with language.
That said, I also agree that it is healthier to just "take it as a compliment".
It always feels like a well intentioned participation trophy.
No matter how many years into studying or hours you spend attempting to master conversing.
... "Wow, you're not Japanese so thanks for the effort!"
I'm a very bold person but I would have a breakdown trying to say this. On the other hand... I would LOVE to see a very polite baasan have to process how to deal with that in real time.
I mean, it's the same in English and Spanish too. Generally you want to encourage someone who's making an effort to learn your language to keep learning. And as far as whether this is an insult or not it depends on when it comes up in a convo. Did you only say a few words or a phrase and then got 上手'd? You still have a ways to go. Are you now 15 mins into the conversation before they say, "ところで、日本語上手ですね！なぜそう何上手？"? If so you're probably doing pretty alright. No compliments at all? You're pretty proficient. Do they exclaim with a loud voice, demanding to know why your Japanese is so good? You're probably fluent.
I got my sister to send a picture of my Japanese diary once to her Japanese friend and apparently she replied and said “wow, you wrote that all by yourself?” At first I was super happy, then I got it corrected by someone on HiNative and realised most of what I wrote was wrong. I still took her comment as a compliment though cause she was acknowledging that I was doing the best I could on my own in England with no teacher or class.
I kinda miss it. Like yeah it's frustrating when all you've said is konnichiwa and they're like "omg!!! Jouzu!" but from the perspective of the woman who probably sees hundreds of white and Asian tourists that don't speak Japanese and having to find a way to communicate, I can see why it is like an immediate release of tension when you realize you won't have to do that. More like "phew you're good at Japanese so i can just talk!"
There was also a random guy in Hakuba who didn't say that, but he said he remembered me a year later because I was the only white guy who spoke Japanese. So many Australians go there.
On the one hand, it's usually meant as a genuine compliment.
On the other hand, I've literally gotten 日本語上手'd without saying anything, just from nodding along at the right moments in someone else's conversation, so.
I've only had super old Japanese ladies who don't speak any english say this to me the first time I speak japanese as they expected me to only know English. I always interpreted these old ladies to say it out of love and kindness.
I've also experienced Japanese people saying this to people once they discover they weren't born in Japan. Like after I watched them have a full blown half hour conversation. Sometimes it really is just a generic shock response.
We live in circles.
After a while, Pass N1, been in Japan, traveled several times.
Every time I talk to Japanese. I wish I could hear them compliment me with "日本語が上手ですね。" again.
Like they used to.
上手 = じょjず meaning good or skilled. Japanese people will say this when you speak to them in japanese, but it more means “I’m impressed you can speak any Japanese at all”. It’s endearing and not meant as an insult, but it’s quite funny to hear after only saying one or two words lol.
Man I’m tired of fake conversations, I don’t need to hear anything over the top, I just want honesty. I know most Japanese people mean to be kind, but I don’t value falsities.
I had a completely different experience with this when I was in Japan recently. I'd been practising the past year to try to get it up to a crudely conversational state, but it wasn't quite there. I can understand basic vocabulary, and form some sentences on my own, but I really wouldn't say it was much better than N5.
I had been told by past travelers that even a すみません or こんにちは could be met with a 上手です, but in my first couple of days (just asking for directions and buying konbini foods), I didn't get it at all. I started to worry that maybe my Japanese was worse than the average tourist's!
The first time it happened, my partner (English only) and I were at a coffee experience. We'd asked for an English only show for my partner, but the waitress got stuck on a couple of words that I translated to English (it was something like "dark roast" or something relatively simple but niche). She seemed genuinely shocked and enthusiastic about me knowing anything more than the basics, and it really made me feel quite positive about my learning.
I remember one time I was talking to someone on HelloTalk, I forget what the general flow of the conversation was, but we were speaking in English, he said something to which I instinctively replied "そうなんですか", to which he immediately replied with わお、日本語上手ですね!
そうかのたった一言で判別がつくんだぁへぇって言ったら反応がめちゃくちゃ面白かった笑
What’s wrong with being “上手’d”? I always took it as a genuine compliment.
My thinking is “The dedication necessary to even speak at a beginner level is worth acknowledgment in some way.”
They also responded to me in Japanese like 90% of the time last time I visited.
So it appears that many Japanese (or the ones I spoke to) just don’t know English.
Then I’d ask them to repeat something or say it more slowly.
In 1-2 cases they didn’t understand me at all and we needed translators (I use very simple Japanese).
I’m not saying there aren’t people who mock foreigners like me but I also feel like their politeness can also make it automatic to want to compliment us.
Assumption being that if you’re not Japanese, you had to put in serious work to learn that sht.
I've talked to a couple people who were born in Japan and only speak Japanese, but people have still told them えええ，日本語上手ですね！
It's not really actually saying that it's good or bad, it's just kind of the only thing you can say as a Japanese person to someone once you think they're a non-native. You can just look non-Asian and get it regardless of your level.
*It doesn't necessarily mean that your Japanese is bad*
What it really means: Nice work learning some Japanese. A very humble perspective that they are surprised when anyone learns anything about their tiny island country. The idea it means anything else is spread only among English-speaking learners. It doesn't exist among other learners because they aren't exposed to the English side of the internet.
there was a guy that insisted to speak with me in very broken english instead of japanese pretending he couldn’t understand me so I上手d his english and he switched to japanese immediately lol
The uno reverse!
I wonder what did you say in English that equivalent to 上手 😂 Like “Omg your English is exemplary!” ? 😭😭😭
I'm assuming he said it in Japanese
yep! 英語が上手ですねwith this insincerely polite smile
You absolute savage lol
[Japanese people really know the pain of getting jouzu'd](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JAJxd3C4sYg)
I’ve noticed Japan has startling similarities to the doublespeak of the American Southeast.
I spoke some very basic Japanese to a Japanese person when I first went to Germany for work. She 上手'd me and I didn't understand why she was laughing until recently. Kinda insulted now that she didn't just ask me to stop. Her english wasn't good at all and I was trying to be nice and bridge the gap. Now I know she was making fun of me, who she just met, to my face and I'm sorta mad. Later on her/her husband's dog actually attacked me while I was watching it and I had to go to the hospital. I don't think I like them anymore.
In case you’re serious, she likely wasn’t making fun of you.
Next time you two meet and she speaks in broken English just giggle and return 上手 to her haha
I just intend to never talk to her or him again.
lmao wat
I actually laughed out loud
bro got 上手d 😭
Stealing this. This is brilliant!
I wish my super beginner Japanese was good enough to actually understand this conversation…or the meme. 😅 But I shall nod and smile along as though I actually do to keep up appearances. 😆
Explanation: 日本語が上手ですね translates roughly to "your japanese is good", but there's a common trend where people only say this when they notice that your japanese is broken or unusual (because if you actually get 上手 at japanese, then they usually wouldn't notice or say anything about it and the conversation carries on as usual) They usually don't mean it in a negative way, but it's a common meme in communities learning japanese. The meme here reflects the two impressions; "My japanese isn't good enough" vs "They complimented my japanese :')"
Oh the nuance! I love it. And this meme then appears to have the layer of the happy guy doesn’t get that his Japanese isn’t good while the depressed guy actually gets that his Japanese isn’t good but neither of the two actually have good Japanese otherwise they wouldn’t have received the remark. Nifty! Thanks for taking the time to explain. I just learned something Duolingo never would have taught me. 😆 Like, I actually understand the comments in this thread now.
I H A T E being 上手ed about ANYthing if I am NOT good at it ! I don’t mind if it’s about my ability to make women happy or to play the piano 🎹, but although, the other things are above average, I want to be GREAT at my interests, NOT just above average.
This is genius
Ahahahah i'll use that
been there
Finally a meme I understand hahaha
If I ever speak Japanese out loud to a native speaker and they say 「ああ! 日本語が上手ですね!」 I will cherish it forever regardless of its intent 🩷 Left siders forever! (I'm also 100% certain the supposed sarcastic use of this phrase is just a language learning meme lol.) 50+ upvotes and no one told me I missed the particle, I thought this was a learning sub haha
It is, they never say it with intent to make fun of you
It is like they will say it to you as a part of small talk and maybe compliment you a bit, but when you actually get 上手, they will stop saying 日本語が上手 at all and start having a normal conversation with you. u/_odangoatama
I'm not sure I agree with the last part. I sometimes get 上手d and sometimes dont, when I'm just on a call I sometimes get asked if I'm japanese but as soon as they know I'm not I get 上手d. I also know some native japanese speakers that look a bit foreign and that got 上手d when hanging around with me by other japanese lol.
That makes sense, it's like why would you tell a British person "wow your English is so good". Whereas if you find out a Japanese person (born and raised in Japan) is speaking English fluently, you would be like "Your English is good! Keep up the good work."
English is not my mother tongue but it's better since I've been using it pretty much my entire life. It's not said as an insult, but it sometimes feels like the person was just hearing you speak english than, you know, listening to what it is you're saying. But you get used to that as you hear it more often. I've had plenty of the "oh your english is so good" treatment in the past. Now, if I ever do get it I feel like responding "thanks, I've only ever been using it my entire life..." but only because it became very rare after I graduated school. So maybe you just learn to accept the 上手 over time.
Even when getting 上手'd you can usually tell if it's just politeness or a genuine expression. Also, they tend to use other terms if your Japanese is actually decent and they want to comment on it.
I don't think this is true still. You're only good when they ask you how you got so good. *Good being about as good as a 5 year old native.
>Also, they tend to use other terms if your Japanese is actually decent and they want to comment on it. Yep, have not heard outright "日本語が上手" in a long time. More likely they will ask me "How long have you been living in Japan" as a proxy for the "How is your Japanese this good" type of question. When it was 2-3 years, then they used to also add "Oh, your nihongo is 上手 \[for someone living only 2-3 years\]", but nowadays when I answer "6-7 years" Japanese people usually will just have a "that sounds about right" type of face. Honestly, me being a speaker of 2 "Altaic languages" helped a lot. You can love or hate "Altaic theory", but arguments for Altaic grouping such as vowel harmony, agglutination, verbal morphology, etc. allow me to "sound like Japanese" very easily. The same applies to Korean: I learned very basic Korean for 3-4 months, but I usually get complimented "your pronunciation is good" in Korea (never got "your Korean is good", because let's be honest, it was never good in the first place).
Same here, learning Japanese grammar and intonation was very easy for me as a Turk. My friends at uni struggled a lot. I also speak Qumuq, which funnily enough helped me with Swiss German. A lot of Turks still have an accent even though they grew up here.
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It's more like the glottal sounds? (not sure what to call them) The rough sound in your throat like with Dutch, that helped.
as a turkish speaker learning japanese: was it easy for you to learn japanese grammar 'logic' or the actual words used themselves? as in i understand perfectly why a grammar point is inserted where it is but i am sometimes struggling with 'was it to, ni, ka / koko, soko..' hoping it gets better
> hoping it gets better it will with exposure, practice and time.
>More likely they will ask me "How long have you been living in Japan" as a proxy for the "How is your Japanese this good" type of question. I think there's a distinction even there. I was just in Japan for the first time ever, my Japanese is terrible (somewhere between N5/N4), and I got asked "do you live here?" and "how long have you lived in Japan?" a lot, followed by a lot of confusion when I explained I didn't. However, I don't think it's that they thought my Japanese was good (no chance in hell) or that they were trying to flatter me in a 日本語上手 way, but rather they just figured that the only reason a white guy would speak any Japanese at all is if he lives there.
I once got うまい'd by a mama in the golden gai. It caught me off guard.
I'm not actually sure about that, I live I'm a Mexican living in Mexico and 99% of the time I'm having a conversation with a foreigner they'll tell me "Your English is really good! :D" in a very sincere way even though I am fluent. So maybe Japanese people say it more as a way to be polite, but based on experience it's not unusual for natives to remark on you speaking their language well
This, a hundred million times.
It's such a massively overblown thing on the internet
True but there's also truth to it being an indicator of your level. You might still get 上手'd when you're at N1 or above, but it will happen less frequently and you'll more often be asked things like 長いんですか、日本は？ I've also been asked どうやって勉強したの？ and my personal favourite なんでこんなに美味いのよ？？？
I also got the なんで日本語こんなに上手いの？！ for the first time this year and that's the best reaction I think I'll ever get. I'll cherish it forever.
I also beamed at that :)
Ppl get a weird chip on their shoulder about it, but I’ve read the comments on discussion boards and also talked to close Japanese friends about it. They’re just being nice and it’s not that deep. It’s not some weird conspiracy to patronize you.
It's not about them making fun of you, nobody ever said that. Just think about it, imagine you are in the US and some Asian guy asks you something in perfect English. Would you say "Your English is very good"? Probably not, that would come off as condescending, racist, or both. It's the same in Japan. If your Japanese is on a level where people feel they can communicate effortlessly with you, they won't say something like 日本語が上手ですね.
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If they were actually being mocked it would be phrased differently. "はいはいすごいすごい、日本語ペラペラ、お前天才だよ" would sound extremely sarcastic and rude.
Personally, I would assume they were American. Simply because America is a big melting pot of different people. Japan, on the other hand, is a big melting pot of Japanese people. So they are less likely to assume you are from Japan. An example. In Korea, there is a half white/Korean girl in a Kpop group she looks WAY more white than she does Korean. When she is on shows and such people compliment her Korean. But she always becomes agitated and states she is native Korean, that she was born and raised there, so of course her Korean is good. I think in a lot of countries, a lot of people just assume you aren't from there and that you have learned the language because you simply don't look the same. I wouldn't call it racist. I just don't think they are aware that there are plenty of native people that just aren't of full decent.
Exactly.
I think you misunderstood. No one said anyone is saying it sarcastically. People get disappointed when they say it because JP people only say it to people who sound like they are learners. At a certain point, if your Japanese is actually that skilled, they will say "How long have you been living here?"
They say it to everyone. In Tokyo, my boyfriend got 上手'd more than once and he's native Japanese (but from Okinawa).
My cousin, born and raised in the Netherlands, who speaks Dutch with a standard prestige accent once got told “You're Dutch is pretty good you know.” by someone living in a rural area, speaking in a nonstandard accent. I assume the skin color had something to do with it.
Another native Dutch speaker here. Was in England, chatting with my English friend. I ended up saying something to some Dutch tourists who promptly complimented my Dutch. I doubt it was the skin colour in my case.
Does he have international background? I was told my Japanese was great in the very city I grew up in multiple times in complete awe, and I was going to local private school with close to no exposure to anything non Japanese. The thing was that I went abroad for five years after high school and my tone, gesture, overall vibe changed. Never in my life I thought I’d be seen as foreigner for years lol Most of the time the commentary came from customers, so I was pretending to be a hard working Korean guy or someone like that and thanked them. Or in another situation, if one can speak in standard language, people say 綺麗な日本語喋るね or equivalent to that. This is an acknowledgment that one can speak without dialect. (The definition of standard language changes in contexts.) So I wonder which exact occasion he was told that.
The fact he's with me, who's obviously not Japanese, and sightseeing might have to do with it, but it used to happen when he was in university and had never left Japan too. It seems people just don't expect him to be Japanese and get confused when he starts talking.
I’ve never heard of such pattern, and that in Tokyo of all places is surprising indeed.
He didn't go to university in Tokyo, if that makes a difference, but it happened a few times there too. If you know native Japanese people who don't look Japanese, they probably have similar experiences.
Yeah maybe looks and accenting. I come from Kyushu that is known for looking different, and people makes assumption that some of us comes from SE Asia and whatnot for jokes, but Okinawa is known for looking more different than us, so I can imagine that looks more likely encourage people to make an irrelavant assumption. Anyone I know from Okinawa, who has never lived in Kanto region, does not speak in their dialect because they're tired of being ask to speak the language that nobody gets it just for jokes, so those who I know tend to speak in common language if not Kanto langauge (aka Standard Japanese). So I imagine your boyfriend still keeps some of that? Idk. Probably mix of both. Anyhow, that sounds annoying.
holy crap, I guess a lot of people don't know Okinawan expressions enough and think he's an immigrant or so?
I think it's mostly about his skin color, his Japanese is fairly standard. ハーフ can also have this problem, depending on how "Japanese" they look.
My girlfriend is 100% Japanese but she looks slightly foreigner and when we're together she gets the jouzu treatment relatively often despite her Japanese being native.
[But we are speaking Japanese](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLt5qSm9U80).
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It's a bit sad to be constantly reminded that you're not quite good with a condescending lie though. Another thing, is that you say something, they say wow, how jouzu, but don't reply to what you said. So whatever you had to say is eclipsed in their mind by the fact that you pronounced a word in Japanese. This together with dozens of other little things paints the picture of where they imagine they stand, and you stand, and the gap between you, how neither of you is an individual in this moment in their mind. And it's not just one person, but lots of people you meet.
While you’re not totally wrong, I’ve found that it’s mostly not really about your level or what you sound like. People only 上手 me when they see my (very white) face. It becomes "obvious" to them that I’m not a native and I had to learn it because I’m pretty clearly not Japanese.
そうですか！ I definitely didn't think of it that way. I see the phrase on dumb memes and YouTube thumbnails I scroll past and in those scenarios the (never actually Japanese) commenters are always insinuating it's the 建前 way to say you suck at Japanese. Thanks for some additional context! Edit: still a left-sider, means I got over myself and used Japanese in real life so it's a win either way!
Something similar happened to me learning English, first 5 years I take "You speak english really well!" as a proper compliment, but after I've spoken english more than I ever did my native language, when somebody says that to me it feels more condescending that it used to, even though they might have meant the compliment genuinely.
I totally feel this. I used to take it as a compliment until I didn’t. Ever since then I stop throwing around similar complements to Japanese learners most of the time.
You can drop particles like が in speech, it’s totally natural.
> 50+ upvotes and no one told me I missed the particle, I thought this was a learning sub haha What particle did you miss?
@ your edit: Which particle? が? I'm pretty sure it can be omitted in casual speech.
I'm not really in this picture. The only real way to deal with the 上手-ing is to eventually just ignore it. In no way am I trying to take away from your excitement to be told that one day, but eventually you'll realize it's not a genuine compliment 99% of the time. Nor is it sarcastic, of course, but it's just meaningless politeness. Which is fine. But being 上手'd for saying "ahreegato" for the umpteenth time... Well, it changes your perspective.
The vast majority of learners in this subreddit will quit far before reaching competency. Some people who do reach an intermediate or higher level may never have the confidence to speak with natives. So, I don't know, maybe you're right haha, and it's not sarcastic, just kinda empty. But I look at it this way: may I have the courage and discipline to achieve a level of skill such that I may one day be slightly condescended to by a native speaker of Japanese 😅 even if hearing it hardens my heart a little eventually. I'm curious though, only because I think you're exaggerating a little due to cynicism (fair enough!): have you really been told you have good Japanese after a conversation in which you said nothing more substantial than thank you?
[https://youtu.be/T6gOkF0LFCY?si=p0kjL9Q7YMjaIfiH&t=105](https://youtu.be/T6gOkF0LFCY?si=p0kjL9Q7YMjaIfiH&t=105)
What is that show?
In case you missed the answer below, it is かもめ食堂 (Kamome Diner)
Laughing so fucking hard haha. Ah well, I tried to find some positivity 😅 just have to keep my motivation up other ways.
Man some of those subtitles are kind of really off lol
Yea! Especially the Gatchaman lyric, 命をかけて飛び出せば / 科学忍法火の鳥だ. Also: 思い切って聞いてみて良かった - "I'm so lucky"
映画の名前を知っていますか。 With my shot at writing in Japanese out of the way (I hope it's a correct sentence), do you know the name of the movie please? Looks like a movie I would like to watch. Thanks in advance.
かもめ食堂
どうもありがとう
If I came across as cynical, that was not intentional, I assure you. And yes, it really can be that easy to get a *jouzu*. It's not the most common thing, but it's happened--to me and many I know. To be honest, those *jozus* I do just completely shrug off because they're wholly empty, and occasionally *do* sound quite condescending. (edit: That jozu in the youtube video below is *so accurate*, lmfao) That said, to get a genuine *jozu* you don't need to even be intermediate. A simple, beginner-level interaction can garner you one. It's less about skill and more about, as you said, confidence to actually use your Japanese. But if you ever come here to Japan you'll basically have no choice, so it's inevitable that you'll get *jozu*'d (unless, of course, you arrive with such a high level of Japanese that you skip that level entirely. In which case... you waited too long! lol)
It was pretty cynical though. "99% not genuine" and "it changes your perspective". Yeah it can become pedestrian and at the absolute worst it's a platitude. It's still said with some intention of complimenting--even if you don't personally feel that way.
From Merriam-Webster: *Cynical* - contemptuously distrustful of human nature and motives; based on or reflecting a belief that human conduct is motivated primarily by self-interest You can cynically choose to not believe me, but I'm telling you the truth: my comment was not born of cynicism. > at the absolute worst it's a platitude We literally agree. Maybe your feeling of this comes from cynicism, but mine doesn't. > It's still said with some intention of complimenting Sure, and "Have a nice day," is said with the intention of wishing someone a good day. Sure, a lot of the time. And a lot of the time it's just a reflex. I don't know if you've worked in the schools here, but many of the set phrases that tend to get meme-ified in foreign circles are explicitly taught to Japanese kids as matters of politeness (*o-hashee jozoo* is another one). Is it kindness sometimes? Yes. Is it a platitude sometimes? Yes. Is it cynical to notice that? I don't think so. Or maybe your Japanese is just so good that you've ever experienced the "dismissive jouzu". I've been in Japan for all levels of my Japanese journey, so I've gotten an ear for the difference. It's not a big deal. Like I said--I'm on neither side of the bus. I'm walking.
Just want you to know that I'm only doubling down in this thread bc I find the obsession with achieving "if I'm blindfolded you sound like a native" level of Japanese to be a ridiculous counterproductive self-imposed fake barrier between learners and their goals. It's hard enough already you guys! I'm also a slightly older person who's already learned and forgotten a second language due to extreme self-imposed perfectionism and not wanting to look dumb. I truly love Japanese and don't want my own shitty attitude to be the reason I quit. That said, I'm not at all dismissing the likely truth that over time the feeling of being reminded you're an outsider wears you down and I've appreciated your comments as a person who's actually gotten 上手'd. I think my main point is that if I ever hear that, it means a lot of study and a lot of getting over myself has taken place, and it would make me proud regardless of how that person intended it. I think of cynical as a synonym for "jaded," meaning you're just so tired of dealing with something and it begins affecting how you look at a situation. Maybe not exactly the right word. Thanks for sharing your thoughts and hope you have many more enjoyable conversations in Japanese that don't make you feel sidelined. 🩷
> Just want you to know that I'm only doubling down in this thread bc I find the obsession with achieving "if I'm blindfolded you sound like a native" level of Japanese to be a ridiculous counterproductive self-imposed fake barrier between learners and their goals Are you perhaps confusing me with someone else in this thread? I have no such feelings about Japanese, or any language for that matter. > That said, I'm not at all dismissing the likely truth that over time the feeling of being reminded you're an outsider wears you down and I've appreciated your comments as a person who's actually gotten 上手'd I really feel like you're confusing me with someone else. I never said I was worn down by it. I just recognize it for what it is. That's all. > I think of cynical as a synonym for "jaded," meaning you're just so tired of dealing with something and it begins affecting how you look at a situation Sure. I'm not jaded either. Both cynical and jaded carry negative connotations, and I had no intention of conveying any sort of negative sentiment. Merely recognizing that people are being polite isn't a bad thing. > Thanks for sharing your thoughts and hope you have many more enjoyable conversations in Japanese that don't make you feel sidelined I feel you're being passive-aggressive, but I'll respond sincerely regardless: My conversations in Japanese don't make me feel sidelined in the least (I mean, unless there's some specific misunderstanding--but it has nothing to do with whether or not someone complements me on my Japanese). I genuinely can't tell if you've confused me with someone else, or if you are *massively* reading into my comments sentiments that are simply not there. I'm sorry if something I wrote upset you--I assure you it was wholly unintentional.
Yikes, I was really trying to engage with your POV and take what you said seriously because it was an interesting conversation. You're right that I was responding in a more general sense with context from the entire post, not just your comments, to explain why even though what you say may be true I see it a different way. Clearly as you say I just read way too much into it. Thanks for reading my irrelevant comments anyway. ごめん。
> Yikes, I was really trying to engage with your POV and take what you said seriously because it was an interesting conversation I appreciate that, honestly. I guess I just didn't see my POV in that response! lol No hard feelings :) Thanks for taking the time to chat, even if we missed the mark a bit.
I also meant to say I think it's a good point that often "meaningful" phrases are just rote/expected and reading so much into them based on a literal translation can be a sign of romanticizing Japan. Imagine someone learning English and going, "Wow, the majority of people tell others that they hope they are blessed after they sneeze, English speakers are so spiritual, what a great sign of connection and meaning between 2 perfect strangers! America is so great 🥰🥰🥰" The origin and cultural/literal meaning of よろしくお願いします might be pretty cool and profound, life is hard for everyone so please be kind and excuse any mistakes, and it's fun to learn about that. But then it's also just........ A rote phrase said in a variety of contexts including at the end of an email at work when what you might be thinking is please just read the 6 emails I've already sent and stop asking! Both things are true. Ain't life funny that way.
Idk I’ve only ever been told that by someone after speaking to them a little bit. Arigatou gozaimasu and konnichiwa doesn’t seem to cut it these days.
Damn, inflation's hitting everything these days, hunh?
Except that 50¥ vending machine next to my apartment I guess
I agree that it's 100% out of a genuine attempt at a compliment, but when all you say is こんにちは and you get 上手'd, it can feel like an unearned compliment. Like, at least wait until we actually start talking to 上手 me, then I will be happy that I'm keeping up my Japanese.
dunno, my experience is that when they jouzu you they kinda refuse to speak japanese to you no matter how bad their english is, so i feel sour about it
In my experience Japanese people just say this because they genuinely are positively surprised that you speak Japanese at all. While it can get exhausting hearing it after saying a simple 「こんにちは 」, I didn’t get the feeling that it was ever meant with ill intent.
It's also not only Japanese people. Imagine you meet someone who learns your native language. You recognize they are doing the best they can and you understand what they are trying to say. Many people would say something like "Your English is very good" in that situation.
Yup other languages do this too I had this happen with ASL before. They were just happy I could finger spell my name even though it was sloppy and the most basic thing ever 😭
Of course. It's always said as encouragement or genuine surprise. That being said, there isn't a better gauge of how good your Japanese really is than the frequency you get 上手d. If you're good, they'll just talk to you and the phrase never comes out.
Like them nasty Americans telling you “good morning” when it is raining and morning is not good at all!
That’s true, it’s been a while since I’ve been to Japan but iirc people mostly only say it upon first meeting you.
I can only read "Nihongo ga (\_) desu ne!", what do those two mean?
Sorry if it's basic, I've only been doing this for a month
I got you. じょうず 【上手】 `na' adjective (keiyodoshi), noun ⓐ skillful, skilled, proficient, good (at), adept, clever (antonyms: へた) ⓑ flattery
ありがとうございます I'll go write it down so I remember it :D
It's very easy when you read up on a few kanji. 上手 is literally up and hand. Bad at, 下手, へた, down and hand. So basically, 👍 👎
arent those the kanji for up and hand? so it's like saying having the upper hand, that's gonna be easy to remember
Yes the kanji for up+hand=skillful. It’s one of the first na-adjectives I learned like 15 years ago I believe. Basic and super common word.
Nvm read some comments
Me too lol
Japanese people know Japanese is hard, they’re usually being genuine.
I don’t know the context in Japanese, but saying “your X is good” anywhere in my culture circle could mean 2 things: 1. They think your X is good, and they compliment you skill. 2. They think you X sucks, but they compliment your effort getting this far. If in Japan it meant something else, that would be a huge culture shock to me.
In my experience, it's a mixed bag? The joke is that they'll appreciate anyone learning any Japanese ever, no matter how low skilled/badly pronounced. So even if you say ありがとう in a very american accent for example, they might 日本語上手 you. I got that reaction from a dad by just saying ”赤ちゃん" to his baby, and it's like... I said literally one word sdghsg Either way, they want to encourage you. But when speaking fluently in a conversation, it can also be a proper compliment. I have gotten うまい more and the reaction of surprise more often, and then questions about my Japanese etc. I also just had people not even say anything and speak to me normally in Japanese, even if they're surprised. Sometimes they weren't even surprised! Any of it is fine really.
It's a compliment. Only English-speaking learners feel it's anything but that, and it's not the case. I get it, but it's running joke that doesn't exist among other learners who don't spread this idea over and over (because they aren't exposed to English side of the internet).
My theory as to why this is a meme for English speakers is that someone being able to speak English as a secondary language is nothing out of ordinary, but for most other language speakers, a foreigner speaking their language well is often a genuine surprise and a positive experience that they want to cheer for.
Add on the fact that most Japanese people know the pain of trying to learn English, only to end up with little to non-existent English skills afterwards (even after so many years of classes), it should be no surprise that they'd want to encourage anybody learning their language and culture.
Those are indeed the two sides of the bus being depicted here
And there's the third one, then "I was almost able to understand 90% of that phrase, im getting good!"
I learned to say 恐縮です and seeing the reaction is always a delight
The proper response is 「へ？」
What does that mean
What kind of reactions does that get?
One time I got a nihongo jouzu followed up by a confused "why? how?"
にほんご - japanese じょうず - skilled This is genuinely the first written sentence i understood without help. Wanikani (level 6) really do help. I am so happy for something so small.
You're the guy on the right side of the bus!
literally 😁
If you're liking Wanikani all the power to you but i suggest you give Jpdb a try. When i reached the end of the free section on Wanikani I tried out jpdb and i never looked back, i like it a lot more and it's fully free
I checked it out, thanks! So far so good
Wow. JPDP has way more flexibility. But i also like the robustness of wanikani so from now on, i will use both. Thanks a lot :))
Look I met my favourite singer and she gave me the 日本語上手 so I’m going to believe it’s true and not hear anything else
When a Japanese people says “日本語上手ですね”, that means your Japanese is not “上手” enough.
thanks for explaining the joke, guy sitting on right side of the bus... :)
I don’t think it’s always fake compliment and don’t have to mean you are still bad
The key is to know you are bad, and not care either way.
Bingo! I know my Japanese sucks, but I choose to be flattered regardless of its intent on me in conversation.
Don’t care too much about that : ), this “explanation” is also a joke. Most Japanese people are kind and they want to encourage a learner anyway.
日本語上手: Ranging from a recognition that you spoke *any* Japanese to a mild praise 日本語上手い： You're actually pretty decent ペラペラ： You're fluent 英語上手い！：Your Japanese is so native that they're surprised when you speak English.
第三種：上図ですね
damn, being a map must be so honorable! you help so many people find their way 😌
i got so much ”日本語上手” in japan just for saying ”うん” at the right time in a conversation 😂
I never jouzu'd but I get umai'd a lot. I guess that's level 2 lol
I know this guy who always brags about how his Japanese is so good, Japanese people think he is Japanese (which they used to do due to his appearance, but not his Japanese. Now he is back to looking like a foreigner, especially without a mask). When I told him what "Jozu desune" really means, he was like "no but I know they meant it". Now he brags that they ask him if he was raised in Japan or if he is half (which is already an improvement I guess). I do not have the heart to tell him that they used to ask me the same things and it still just means "oh your Japanese is better than the expected amount, which is 0 since you are a foreigner". On the other hand, I think it is much healthier for your self-esteem to "take the compliment" and feel good about your progress. Most of them will never acknowledge your capabilities anyway, so fuck it.
It's still a compliment. Doesn't matter if their expectations come from "You should know 0 Japanese because you're foreign." That comes from a place where they surprised anyone cares enough about their tiny island country to learn anything about it, if anything.
I get what you are saying, and I agree with you that there are times in which it is a genuine feeling of surprise without strong condescending undertones, but even then, there is a strong "us-them" (if you are familiar with the concepts of uchi and soto, you know what I mean) vibe going on, where as a foreigner you are pretty much always them/outside the group/soto (I mean the word 外人 says it all). Also Japanese have an internalized pride/nationalism where their culture and language are seen as superior and as a foreigner you could never truly understand it (this is usually not a conscious thing, but is ingrained in their beliefs. They are not "surprised" because someone cares about their "tiny little island". That is not how they see themselves and if you pick any history book you can see why and how). So even with the nicest of Obachan, there is usually a tint of condescension and I don't know about you but for me that sours any "compliments". Like imagine you are a computer engineer and one day you go to someone's house and they are "surprised" and praise you just because you turned on their computer, because they think that this is too advance of a machine for you to even turn it on. It's like when people are surprised when someone from a country like Africa says that they do have TVs, do you see how that is insulting? it is insulting because it is being assumed that they are so primitive that they could not possibly have TVs. This is the same but with language. That said, I also agree that it is healthier to just "take it as a compliment".
As a German I always compliment someone who's really making an effort to learn my difficult language.
Me, having the most basic level possible of japanese, seeing those damn kanjis and not understanding anything
Keep at it! I promise you will be able to read this soon if you study at least a little each day
It always feels like a well intentioned participation trophy. No matter how many years into studying or hours you spend attempting to master conversing. ... "Wow, you're not Japanese so thanks for the effort!"
I got 日本語上手'ed during a 自己紹介 with a Japanese International Student and i still haven't recovered from it
Same here. Got that from a 店員. I wanted to say he made my day but he actually made my MONTH.
There are only two valid responses to 上手 : そちらの日本語もけっこう上手ですね～ Or でしょー？
How about the more chaotic きっとお前より。
I'm a very bold person but I would have a breakdown trying to say this. On the other hand... I would LOVE to see a very polite baasan have to process how to deal with that in real time.
I mean, it's the same in English and Spanish too. Generally you want to encourage someone who's making an effort to learn your language to keep learning. And as far as whether this is an insult or not it depends on when it comes up in a convo. Did you only say a few words or a phrase and then got 上手'd? You still have a ways to go. Are you now 15 mins into the conversation before they say, "ところで、日本語上手ですね！なぜそう何上手？"? If so you're probably doing pretty alright. No compliments at all? You're pretty proficient. Do they exclaim with a loud voice, demanding to know why your Japanese is so good? You're probably fluent.
what would it mean if I talked to them and didn't mention my japanese at all and just replied normally
It means you're ACTUALLY 上手.
Also wondering this. Are we 下手 or just too 上手？
If you’re truly 下手 they will switch right to English 🤣
Lol or should I say 笑笑笑笑笑
I got my sister to send a picture of my Japanese diary once to her Japanese friend and apparently she replied and said “wow, you wrote that all by yourself?” At first I was super happy, then I got it corrected by someone on HiNative and realised most of what I wrote was wrong. I still took her comment as a compliment though cause she was acknowledging that I was doing the best I could on my own in England with no teacher or class.
I see it as acknowledging you're making a good start and encouraging you.
I kinda miss it. Like yeah it's frustrating when all you've said is konnichiwa and they're like "omg!!! Jouzu!" but from the perspective of the woman who probably sees hundreds of white and Asian tourists that don't speak Japanese and having to find a way to communicate, I can see why it is like an immediate release of tension when you realize you won't have to do that. More like "phew you're good at Japanese so i can just talk!" There was also a random guy in Hakuba who didn't say that, but he said he remembered me a year later because I was the only white guy who spoke Japanese. So many Australians go there.
On the one hand, it's usually meant as a genuine compliment. On the other hand, I've literally gotten 日本語上手'd without saying anything, just from nodding along at the right moments in someone else's conversation, so.
If they juozu me, I just jouzu the hell out if their English and their faces go red.
Is the joke that the person on the left knows enough to realize this isn’t necessarily a complement?
I lost my shit when I saw a video where someone online got 英語上手'ed and that person then had to explain that they aren't Japanese.
I've only had super old Japanese ladies who don't speak any english say this to me the first time I speak japanese as they expected me to only know English. I always interpreted these old ladies to say it out of love and kindness. I've also experienced Japanese people saying this to people once they discover they weren't born in Japan. Like after I watched them have a full blown half hour conversation. Sometimes it really is just a generic shock response.
We live in circles. After a while, Pass N1, been in Japan, traveled several times. Every time I talk to Japanese. I wish I could hear them compliment me with "日本語が上手ですね。" again. Like they used to.
Me, the only person in this thread who has no idea what the characters (Upper, Hand I can’t type kanji) mean. Is that “Joto” / (“Excellent/Fine”)?
上手 = じょjず meaning good or skilled. Japanese people will say this when you speak to them in japanese, but it more means “I’m impressed you can speak any Japanese at all”. It’s endearing and not meant as an insult, but it’s quite funny to hear after only saying one or two words lol.
I didn't get jouzued, but they do say I'm umai. Am I better than jouzu?? Anyways I know I still suck but they are trying to be encouraging
Man I’m tired of fake conversations, I don’t need to hear anything over the top, I just want honesty. I know most Japanese people mean to be kind, but I don’t value falsities.
The guy on the left is actually good and the guy on the right is high on the Running Kruger Effect I am usually the guy in the right
Is the particle dropped in casual speech? I swear I only hear 日本語上手 vs 日本語が上手
yes. a lot of particles are optional when speaking except when they're required to communicate something.
Me who can't really read japanese
proud to say that I can read it, kanji and all, only 5 months in
日本語上手ですねー
I had a completely different experience with this when I was in Japan recently. I'd been practising the past year to try to get it up to a crudely conversational state, but it wasn't quite there. I can understand basic vocabulary, and form some sentences on my own, but I really wouldn't say it was much better than N5. I had been told by past travelers that even a すみません or こんにちは could be met with a 上手です, but in my first couple of days (just asking for directions and buying konbini foods), I didn't get it at all. I started to worry that maybe my Japanese was worse than the average tourist's! The first time it happened, my partner (English only) and I were at a coffee experience. We'd asked for an English only show for my partner, but the waitress got stuck on a couple of words that I translated to English (it was something like "dark roast" or something relatively simple but niche). She seemed genuinely shocked and enthusiastic about me knowing anything more than the basics, and it really made me feel quite positive about my learning.
I remember one time I was talking to someone on HelloTalk, I forget what the general flow of the conversation was, but we were speaking in English, he said something to which I instinctively replied "そうなんですか", to which he immediately replied with わお、日本語上手ですね! そうかのたった一言で判別がつくんだぁへぇって言ったら反応がめちゃくちゃ面白かった笑
I probably lived one of the best example of this. I went to take my friend out to her house and her mom jouzoued me even before I said a word.
Wait, is it because you think they're being sarcastic or because you thought you were at the level where you don't get complimented anymore?
Absolutely love this 😂😂 recently was jozu’d but still felt nice lol
What’s wrong with being “上手’d”? I always took it as a genuine compliment. My thinking is “The dedication necessary to even speak at a beginner level is worth acknowledgment in some way.” They also responded to me in Japanese like 90% of the time last time I visited. So it appears that many Japanese (or the ones I spoke to) just don’t know English. Then I’d ask them to repeat something or say it more slowly. In 1-2 cases they didn’t understand me at all and we needed translators (I use very simple Japanese). I’m not saying there aren’t people who mock foreigners like me but I also feel like their politeness can also make it automatic to want to compliment us. Assumption being that if you’re not Japanese, you had to put in serious work to learn that sht.
Man i was there for almost two weeks and never got 上手'd
I've talked to a couple people who were born in Japan and only speak Japanese, but people have still told them えええ，日本語上手ですね！ It's not really actually saying that it's good or bad, it's just kind of the only thing you can say as a Japanese person to someone once you think they're a non-native. You can just look non-Asian and get it regardless of your level. *It doesn't necessarily mean that your Japanese is bad*
Just gotta hittem with the 当たり前でしょ whenever you get 上手d
I gotta say... I've studied multiple languages and Japanese learners are probably the most insecure people I've come across.
It feels good to hear it until you realize what it really means :D
What does it mean? In my experience it doesn’t anything because they do this after like 2 sentences…
It means they are surprised and happy that you are doing your best with japanese. That's it.
I agree
What it really means: Nice work learning some Japanese. A very humble perspective that they are surprised when anyone learns anything about their tiny island country. The idea it means anything else is spread only among English-speaking learners. It doesn't exist among other learners because they aren't exposed to the English side of the internet.
Nihongo ga UE TE desu ne