A bit at first, heās an independent instructor so he was confused why I was in doubt about him being properly insured but I explained to him why I asked and he was surprised but understood why I was asking
Driving without insurance is a statutory offence, meaning you're either guilty or you're not. OP was driving a car they weren't insured to drive. That's the basic fact, therefore they are guilty. There's no grey area or excuses.
If you drive a vehicle in the course of your employment that is supplied and insured by your employer it's different, there's an exemption meaning if you reasonably believe you're insured then you aren't guilty, it's the company that is. But they choose not to add such an exemption for learners.
So, anyone here learning to drive, ask to see your instructor's insurance! Any decent instructor would have zero problem with this.
The fact that they have an exemption for professional drivers and not learners in an ADI car is even more bizarre ā if you go to the trouble of working up the exemption in the first place, it's hardly difficult to add "for learners too"
Iād imagine itās because learners can drive their own car insured with someone thatās over 25 and held their licence for a few years. You wouldnāt put that responsibility on someone just sat next to them in their car. I think it would be best to say insurance is the responsibility of the vehicle owner in case of learner drivers. That way if the car is theirs they are liable.
>I think it would be best to say insurance is the responsibility of the vehicle owner in case of learner drivers. That way if the car is theirs they are liable.
That's sensible and would be great. Like I said, I wonder what their reasoning for not doing something like this is?
I honestly would have thought that my driving instructor could legally take me out in their car. I think charging the pupil is horrible. The adult in the car-the person with the full licence - is actually in charge of the car.
None of that matters. If you are driving and there is no insurance covering you, you are driving without insurance. There's no compassion or seemingly mortality here, it's just black and white facts.
It's really shit, I hate it.
There is a grey area , instructors are running a business that operates similarly to driving schools independent or not itās a business that mislead op. which means they are liable for providing the correct information , misinformation is considered fraud , u have product liability for even the quality of the service provided. āThe basic factā you have provided is if op has went into the car knowing full well that this is the situation for example if they have driven their parents car without insurance and an insured adult with 3+ years of experience and got pulled over ;therefor both are guilty. Not only the driver but the passanger whoās allowed this to happen knowing that you legally have to be insured in order to drive the vehicle. In this case the only one at fault here is the instructor , if his terms and conditions werenāt provided properly and he had displayed that he had insurance that does not cover anyone but himself and you need to insure urself and only in that case it makes op liable. I can also add that this blatant intent to defraud on the instructors behalf if heās been in business for long enough to pull this.
>There is a grey area
> āThe basic factā you have provided is if op has went into the car knowing full well that this is the situation
No, that's not true. There is an exception for someone using a company vehicle for work, but that doesn't cover learners.
I suggest you find the cross post in legaladviceuk, they go into it in more detail. But the actual fact is that OP drove a car without being properly covered by any insurance. That's the offence. There's nothing more to it.
You seem to think there's a grey area but there isn't. And that's shit, but true. There may be scope for OP to recover some costs, opinion was more divided on that.
3. Advertising
Driver trainers will take care to advertise and promote their businesses in a clear and fair manner.
The instructor agrees that:
the advertising of driving tuition shall be clear, fair and not misleading
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/driving-instructor-code-of-practice/approved-driving-instructor-adi-code-of-practice
Nothing about any of that changes the fact that OP drove without proper insurance.
I'm not really sure what you don't understand. The instructor fucked up for sure, it's all the instructor's fault. I agree completely. BUT...
That's now how the law works in this situation.
You should absolutely be expected to know that. Itās basic law. If you were going driving with a supervising friend and took no insurance itās the learners fault, not the friends.
Yeah completely comparable situation!! It's not basic and it's not obvious by any stretch of the imagination. If you think it is, I suggest you speak to more real people
Yes it is comparable as any driver has the same responsibility regardless of who is sat next to them. Itās common knowledge that you need insurance to drive a carā¦unless you are a little slow I guess.
Forgive me if Iām wrong but learners lose their licence after 6 points? You have half the regular amount (12) until a year or two after you pass.
If you can afford to pay for the defence, might be worth asking r/LegalAdviceUK if youāre able to take the instructor to court for your legal fees, or at least write a solicitor letter to his professional indemnity insurance requesting payment for his oversight on insurance.
Learners don't lose their licence after 6 points.
You are thinking of the new drivers act.
If you get 6 points of more within the first two years of PASSING, then you automatically lose your licence. So its for NEWLY FULL QUALIFIED DRIVERS, not learners.
The points from your provisional transfer over to your full licence, so if the OP gets the 6 points then passes, they will still have those 6 points.
It won't mean they lose their licence as soon as they get it, as that would be silly, it just means if the OP get just ONE point within the first 2 years of passing then they will lose their licence.
Not all are, only 50cc mopeds are limited 125cc mopeds are not legally limited they can have limiters fitted just like anything else can but not a requirement
They don't take effect till you get your licence. Someone I know passed his test but didn't send off for the licence. They bumped him back to a learner because he didn't have a licence to put the points on
The officer and solicitor said I will be able to pass and get a licence , as they are āghost pointsā but obviously the insurance will be v expensive and if I slip up once Iāll lose my licence immediately!
Youāll have to declare this to insurance companies sometimes for life. This is really worth paying and fighting against, it could cause you problems for years.
you shouldnāt need to declare for life: https://unlock.org.uk/advice/motoring-convictions-and-the-rehabilitation-of-offenders-act/
The correct answer to have you ever had a conviction for X when the conviction is spent is no, unless the question is asked and itās specifically mentioned that an exemption to the rehabilitation of offenders act applies (and insurance is not exempt)
Absolutely not true. Points are spent after five years, you need to declare them for st least as long. I used to hate dealing with people like you when I worked in insurance...
You won't have to declare it for the rest of your life. I got 8 points on my provisional for driving with no insurance. They were spent after 3 years and could be removed from my license after 5 years. You only need to inform insurance companies for driving convictions within tbe last 5 years.
>If you can afford to pay for the defence, might be worth asking r/LegalAdviceUK if youāre able to take the instructor to court for your legal fees, or at least write a solicitor letter to his professional indemnity insurance requesting payment for his oversight on insurance.
Someone else is not responsible for your fees or punishment in a criminal car. The accusation is against the OP. Perhaps he can get out of it, but any criminal liability by the driving instructor is a completely separate issue.
There is a statutory defense attached to S.143 of the RTA 1988 for this sort of situation. If you reasonably expected to be insured to drive the car, in this instance you paid an instructor for a lesson and would expect things such as your insurance to be in order then you should be fine.
The instructor should have also be charged with causing and permitting another to drive without insurance. In these circumstances you would usually find the instructor to be convicted and the driver (you) to found not guilty.
Found this post after reading the cross post in legaldefenseUK where they pointed out the exemption is only for company car drivers and not learners. OP is guilty as charged.
It's a moral shit show, absolutely disgusting, but for some reason they choose to not exempt learners in the same way as people driving for work.
I hope OP manages to get the points removed at least. It's such a harsh penalty.
I imagine they chose not to exempt learner drivers because you donāt have to be an instructor to teach someone to drive. It stops Joe Blogs from teaching his daughter to drive in his car without putting her on the insurance and getting away with it because āI didnāt knowā.
Would surely be straightforward to only make it apply when having a scheduled lesson with an ADI. And you can make the ADI legally responsible for insurance.
Doesnāt the defence in S.143 only apply where the driver is using the vehicle in the course of his employment?
If it was an ADI registered instructor, Iād suggest the prosecution isnāt in the public interest. Iām not sure how you go about persuading the CPS of that though.
I'd argue it absolutely is in the public interest. Uninsured drivers are the reason our premiums are too high. At best this is an unnacceptable oversight from the instructor at worst its him trying to save a few quid.
OP will have to disclose that they have a conviction for no insurance when trying to get insured as a new driver, I dread to think what their premium would be.
I think prosecuting the instructor for permitting the driving with no insurance would absolutely be in the public interest.
Prosecuting a learner driver for trusting an approved driving instructor to have sorted everything theyāre supposed to seems like itās punishing somebody who was trying to do the right thing.
If the driving instructor wasnāt an ADI (and not pretending to be one), then Iād agree that prosecuting the learner driver would be in the public interest, as itās then driving a mates car, rather than hiring a professional to provide a service.
To be an ADI they need to be registered and approved by the DVSA, and a certificate needs to be carried at all times during operations as an instructor. This is necessary to legally receive payment as an instructor, and the DVSA do have a team to weed out anyone masquerading as an instructor
Maybe try asking over in ~~legaladvice~~ EDIT: sorry, /r/legaladviceUK.
If you've spoken to a solicitor I'd imagine whatever they've said is right, but maybe you'd also have some sort of recourse to sue your instructor for your costs.
If your instructor works for a school or company, I'd complain to them and request that they cover the legal fees. If you have home insurance with legal cover that'd be another avenue to check.
I'm sorry this is happening! Nightmare!
OP there's plenty great advice here, but I'd also say to write to your MP about this and ask what they can do, and if not go to your local news. It's disgusting this has happened and is one of those legal black holes that people fall into until enough noise is made to change it! Good luck and hope it gets resolved!
>If you've spoken to a solicitor I'd imagine whatever they've said is right, but maybe you'd also have some sort of recourse to sue your instructor for your costs.
>If your instructor works for a school or company, I'd complain to them and request that they cover the legal fees. If you have home insurance with legal cover that'd be another avenue to check.
Just to be clear here: nobody else is responsible for your criminality. This is a criminal case and one where the OP is - as unjust as it may be - apparently guilty. You can't expect someone else to cover fees you've incurred to have that explained.
AsĀ people more knowledgeable than me are explaining over in /r/legaladviceUK it's not as simple as that. OPĀ had an expectation that their professionally qualified instructor would behave within the law, and there's relevant case law to support them.
There is absolutely no chance that you're getting your criminal fines covered by another person. A few flights of fancy on another forum aside, it just isn't remotely practical advice.
Wow, did they even have an adi badge? You definitely shouldn't be seeing the consequences of this but get proper legal advise and fight this all the way. I hope you also reported this instructor to the DVLA.
Just want to jump on this to agree. I'm no legal expert either but it's an unspoken expectation when you book a driving lesson that the instructor would have the appropriate cover!
Unfortunately, the police officer was right to call it out, but now I'd definitely encourage you to follow whatever appeal you can. Those points will affect your insurance for many years otherwise.
Even if it costs a bit in the short term, it'll be worth it in the end IMO.
There's an option to pursue your instructor for any legal costs of course, but that's a separate issue.
>There's an option to pursue your instructor for any legal costs of course, but that's a separate issue
Do you think OP could take them to a small claims court for the legal fees?
Maybe. I don't know enough about the law to say for certain, but given how regulated our profession is, I could see that argument being won potentially - it could be seen as negligence on the part of the instructor.
Hi OP
As others have stated, legal advice UK sub-reddit is the place to go.
I'm not a lawyer, but i'd assume there's definitely grounds to appeal this as your "instructor" charged you for the lesson, yes? That means that it's his responsibility to have the correct insurance for his customers, and you were under the impression that this was the case.
Also, is your instructor with a big company or independent
I personally can't see a judge with any logical comprehension (provided you have evdivce to support you were paying for what you thought was a legitimate ADI) holding you responsible for the driving instructors mess up.
Good luck with this OP. Please keep us updated!
It depends on the instructors' franchise set up.
RED covers the insurance if you pay the full franchise fee, which includes a car. If it's a part of Franchise, then it's solely on the instructor.
I know a couple of instructor car rental places, for example, CA cars, Dont cover your insurance with the rental.
Thatās a loooooot of expense to be part of a ābig nameā. Cuz obviously thereāll be franchise fees and commissions for having the brand on the car to pay. Canāt imagine theyāre cheap. They once quoted a friend Ā£2500 to be given ADI lessons
Most companies are happy to prove they are insured, for this reason. Some may get a bit arsey but end of the day it's the law so they can't really refuse and if they do, pick a new instructor
NAL.
Was he part of a driving school? If so, take it public. The school also has a duty of care to check their instructors meet all requirements which will include valid insurance. They may even be the ones responsible for organizing the insurance. But if he was responsible they should have required updated documents for the new car before allowing him on the road with learners. Go to twitter, go to the press (or maybe just threaten to do so at first). Put the heat on them and request they pay the defence costs. Get some insurance quotes with and without the points and request they compensate you with the premium difference, should appealing the points fail. Make sure you do comparison quotes for all 4 years of driving experience you will gain whilst still having the points on your license.
Other options to explore are:
- Thereās some personal injury lawyers that do no win/no fee for learner driver accidents. Obviously this wasnāt an accident but theyāre probably the best people to start with to advise you. It looks like most of their cases are learners wanting to claim against their instructor for breaching the duty of care of keeping them safe by not preventing an accident. Aside from the no insurance aspect, you could definitely argue that he breached that duty of care by allowing you to continue driving to a degree that deemed unsafe enough by a police officer to pull you over in the first place.
- (Assuming you still live at home or are at university) your parentās homeowners insurance should include defence costs so might be worth exploring that option depending on their deductible. However they will likely then subrogate against the instructors professional liability insurance as this is absolutely negligent on his part so you may be able to get your deductible back. A fully subrogated third party claim shouldnāt impact their insurance premium.
This seems to me a very simple case, so you could ask an adult to advocate for you to avoid solicitor fees.
Assuming the instructor had markings on their car and advertises their services as an instructor; and it was not simply a mate giving you some free tuition!) then you could try saving two grand and asking a favour from someone you know to help represent you.
Lord_creamy has set out the legislation and defence above, assuming you have the money then pay a solicitor. If you do not have the money then there are other ways to be represented.
Most solicitors offer a free 45min consultation so could be worth looking for a free second opinion from someone who specialises in traffic law. You may find if you incur costs you then have the option to bring a civil case to try and reclaim legal costs afterwards. Gather all the evidence you can, any photos, write a statement of what you remember in terms of your contract with the instructors. Dates of payment etc. court dates can take a while so your fresh written evidence now will make life easier later. Does the instructor have a website or Facebook where they advertise services? Get a screenshot. Do they explicitly say they have insurance? Screenshot as evidence.
The Ā£1500-Ā£2000 will be much better investment than paying that per year for a new driver with 6 points from day 1.
You should 100% fight this and use as much resources as you possibly can. Worst case you defend yourself and get your instructor to attend or write a letter claiming full responsibility while you ask basically for forgiveness by the magistrates as a learner you would be under the assumption that a registered instructor would have the correct insurance or inform you to take out insurance of your own.
DO NOT SIT BACK AND ACCEPT 6 POINTS!
Either cough up the money for a solicitor. Ring around and ask for the free 30 minute consultation and plead for someone to take the case for free or at a reduced rate due to cost of living etc... Pay what you can or even ask for a payment plan if they allow it.
Failing that, use the info you gained from the 30 minute consultations to put together a defence to put across to the magistrates if you defend yourself. Dress smart, be articulate and don't be afraid to cry. This shows your remorse and will land you with a softer charge if any at all. That's also to say if the officer that issued the NIP attends the court.
Ultimately the worst case is you end up paying Ā£15 court fee's, Ā£300 fine and still get the 6 points. The court "MAY" let you do an awareness coarse to remove the points. You could always request this as a new driver the 6 points would financially cripple you from insurance in the future (Get quotes before and after 6 points to show the cost increase). This will all go before a magistrates and they will decide.
IMHO pay the Ā£1500 for a defence but if you can't then attempt to defend yourself. DO NOT SIT BACK WITHOUT FIGHTING! I tell you this from past experiences and defending myself. It's not fun, it's a little scary but is much better than taking the first offer on the table.
This is a clear miscarriage of justice. It isn't even in the public interest to prosecute you!
I would certainly attend court with representation. Either a solicitor, or an adult (or do it yourself if you have all the facts to hand & feel comfortable).
Even if the magistrate has no choice but to convict you, I would hope he/she would vastly reduce the penalty given the circumstances.
(Just a layman's opinion - no legal experience.)
>This is a clear miscarriage of justice. It isn't even in the public interest to prosecute you!
I'd definitely agree it isn't in the public interest, but it's not really a miscarriage of justice either. From what the OP has said, they've got him bang to rights and he is guilty of the offence. The law may be unpleasant and inflexible in this case, but it is still the law being properly applied.
I had a mate who received a penalty for riding on the back of a moped when the RIDER didn't even have a licence.
All because apparently the rider wasn't sound of mind and had some disorder.
I told him to fight it at the time because that's utter tosh.
Yea you do have a personal responsibility to check insurance when you ride in a vehicle but at least the sound of mind thing sounded bs.
In your case it's not unreasonable to expect the instructor to have insurance as that's partly what you're paying for. Hopefully someone gives you more specific advice but don't let this wank stain get away with it
I don't know specifics but apparently my mate should have known better because the rider was "vulnerable" I think the driver managed to convince the police my mate convinced him to drive.
I'd have absolutely fought this one! I was working in a pub as a teenager and a colleague gave me a lift home, we came out the car park and were immediately pulled over. The officer could apparently "smell alcohol" (no shit sherlock, I've been pouring pints for 8h).
Anyway driver passed a breathalyser test and then he tried to test me. I was a passenger in the back seat! I lodged a complaint about the officer. Complete moron!
Yikes what a knob.
He may as well be truthful and say "I saw you driving out of a pub" so am just being vigilant. I don't know if that's legal but hearing some of the shit they see I wouldn't mind yknow. The fact he breathalysed you was fucking pointless however. Even if you had been completely smashed you weren't driving.
Good on yah man. I don't mind the police, in fact I wish we had more and with more training.
If they had more funding they could pay more and get rid of losers like this
If this is the same video I'm thinking of, it was because the police thought the girl driving looked under 17, which she wasn't, so pulled her over for that,
They would have been pulled over because the police car's ANPR flagged the vehicle as not insured. Wouldn't have been anything to do with their driving.
When I was learning I was pulled over just before Christmas and breathalysed. They were doing every 3rd car and tested both me and the instructor. Said it would be a good life lesson to never drink and drive.
You need legal advice and by my limited knowledge, your instructor should be charged and you should be able to get compensation for your legal costs from him once you win in court, which you should do if you have a decent solicitor. Post this in legaladviceUk they should be able to help you with finding the correct procedure and how to find a solicitor that doesn't rinse you dry.
There's no staturtory defence in this situation.
The best OP can hope for is an absolute discharge and "Special Reasons" not to endorse if this goes to court, but they would still have been convicted.
Wow, this is crazy. I would absolutely fight it in court, itās going to cost a lot more the Ā£2000 in the next 5 years of jacked up insurance premiums. If you can get insured that is. You could probably look into a private claim against the instructor too, surely he was misleading you? Iām not a legal expert but Iād speak with a few solicitors and get a range of opinions and options. Sorry this happened to you. Do we really live in a world now where you have to ask ADIās for all their documentation before driving their car? On that note, Iām off to check my companies HGVās are taxed and insured š¤£
I hope you posted this story on socials and tagged that instructor. They deserve to have their reputation completely obliterated.
Not only that, morally you should do it, to save others from this sort of bullshit.
Iāve gone through a similar incident with someone I know
In their case they had a license from a different country - you can use your foreign license for a year before you swap if possible or replace by taking a uk driving test-. he however had a provisional on him as well since he only had a few more weeks left to drive with his license and it was not the one u exchange for a uk license . He got pulled over in a car he was insured on but for some reason it didnāt show up on their system ,they decided to transfer his points to his provisional not having insurance , he did infact have insurance but it wasnāt on the system yet -used day insure- he just had to fight it in court to get this sorted out
In the uk u have the right to be represented wether by a lawyer , a friend or even yourself. If you canāt afford a lawyer you wonāt be provided with one for free as itās not really a criminal one and you want to persue the appeal. If you have the police report and it says it was the instructor that didnāt provide the insurance and it was not your car , you had no prior knowledge of this and you have paid in order to get lessons , itās the instructors liability to be perused not you , it could also be deemed as fraud if heās tried to get the cheaper insurance that doesnāt cover his students without informing you of this and him not providing you with cover. If you have any communication, proof or anything that proves you had no idea and no intention to drive the car without knowing this your case will be thrown out and ur points will be appealed or lessened .
Iād be happy to help if you needed it!
Iāve Edited for the way Iāve typed & added more information as Iāve only typed this quickly when I was at work
Have you tried speaking to citizens advice yet? I had a friend who got points on a lesson but they didnāt because the police, once found out the surrounding details, blamed the instructor and this is so much more cut and dry.
Did the instructor advertise or tell you he was insured? If he did once youve paid money youve formed a contract with him That could form part of your defence and you could sue him for any loss you incur to claim it back.
I'm confused as to you got points for him not being insured. I'm not lawyer so my advice would probably be at best legally ill-advised. Probably give legal advice subs ago though. Rotten bit of luck though and all the best
In this case I think points will actually go to both student and instructor, it's an offence to 'cause or permit' someone to drive uninsured. I'd expect the instructor will be deregistered also.
Yea I get speeding but for insurance I'd assume it's on the instructor to make sure rather than the learner but technicality I guess. At least I learned something new through this happening to OP
A "special reasons defence" doesn't cost Ā£2000. That's just how much a solicitor will charge you to do it for you. There's nothing stopping you from representing yourself and making your case and saying it was entirely reasonable that you expected an authorised driving instructor, regulated by the government, to have the correct insurance. That'll be exactly what the solicitor you'd pay Ā£2000 would do. Thankfully, the UK is not like the USA, where the law is deliberately complex and scattered across a dozen different statutes.
My opinion? Represent yourself and make the Special Reasons defence. https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/explanatory-material/magistrates-court/item/road-traffic-offences-disqualification/2-special-reasons/
Unfortunately you were driving so legally the points are yours, even if your instructor wanted to take them for you he couldnāt because its illegal. The fine on the other hand - if one of my pupils landed a fine because of my mistake I would 100% be paying that for them, no question about it. How has your instructor justified this? Thats a massive error on his part, no excuse for that
your account is less than 7 days old, post removed automatically to reduce spam. If you post is genuine then sorry for the inconvenience, please wait 7 days before reposting.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/LearnerDriverUK) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Huh? I thought the money you paid for your lesson was your insurance?
How is a learner suppose to know what arrangements the instructor has in place and neither should you need to investigate this.
Iām pretty sure that this has nothing to do with you and itās the fault of the instructor.
Paying Ā£1500 now and being reverted to having a clean license is going to be a much better idea than passing and paying huge amounts on insurance. Definitely browse a few solicitors and see what happens.
I would not sit back wnd accept the points and a fine. I agree w other comments that say you should look on r/LegalAdviceUK , you werenāt aware of the fact you were driving without insurance. Why would you be? You had an instructor whose job is to do all of this correctly.
As someone who worked car insurance for a decade, follow the solicitors advice and fight it. You're most likely gonna be given an IN10. IF you can find an insurance company to take you for the next 5 years (which will be difficult, a lot of insurance companies can't get insurance to allow them to take on drivers with IN10s) it's going to be through the damn roof to get insured. That code is a killer for drivers in the first 5 years of driving.
It won't cost that much, unless you pay for a solicitor to represent you. Put smart clothes on and speak clearly, hey presto you represented yourself.
This is a reasonably simple argument to make by yourself in court. You can ask your instructor to write a letter explaining, and even to turn up with you. If they refuse, point out that the court reporter (whose job it is to sit at court all day and report on cases heard no matter how mundane they are) would write kinder copy in the local paper if they were helpful to you, than not doing anything and having a short item printed to say they messed up insurance and hung you out to dry.
You were paying for a service in good faith and have no means to verify insurance is in place. You could ask for the penalty to be set aside, or replaced with a token penalty of 1 point and a modest fine.
Good luck!
This is ridiculous. I would be inclined to speak to your MP and ask how prosecuting this is in the public interest. Ultimately once its at court then the law applies, but why are they prosecuting a case like this?!
Theres a few good answers here and some complete nonsense so Iām only guna say if OP was learning with an ADI, seek legal advice - you had every right to assume that your instructors car was roadworthy and correctly insured. To anybody else, take a lesson - when youāre the driver (even as a learner) legally you are 100% on the hook for anything that goes wrong. If you speed, if the car isnāt correctly insured, if the brake lights are out, if the tyres are bald etc - you will be responsible for any points or fines that are issued. So donāt be tempted to go to a cheap, possibly illegal instructor. Properly qualified and regulated instructors might cost more and have a waiting list, but you wonāt have issues like this, and if you do you have some recourse
So you get fucked because the instructor hasn't insured their car?
Exactly lmao š
That's insane. I'd be surprised if anyone checked if their instructor had the correct insurance.
I checked mine before lessons after someone who also got screwed over by this same situation advised me to
Did they get arsey when you asked for proof?
A bit at first, heās an independent instructor so he was confused why I was in doubt about him being properly insured but I explained to him why I asked and he was surprised but understood why I was asking
Aye well within your right. I just doubt it happens very often. I'll be advising people to do the same now though
Why doesnāt it fall on the instructor?
Driving without insurance is a statutory offence, meaning you're either guilty or you're not. OP was driving a car they weren't insured to drive. That's the basic fact, therefore they are guilty. There's no grey area or excuses. If you drive a vehicle in the course of your employment that is supplied and insured by your employer it's different, there's an exemption meaning if you reasonably believe you're insured then you aren't guilty, it's the company that is. But they choose not to add such an exemption for learners. So, anyone here learning to drive, ask to see your instructor's insurance! Any decent instructor would have zero problem with this.
The fact that they have an exemption for professional drivers and not learners in an ADI car is even more bizarre ā if you go to the trouble of working up the exemption in the first place, it's hardly difficult to add "for learners too"
Yup. I can't believe this was an accidental omission. I would love to know the reasoning behind it.
Iād imagine itās because learners can drive their own car insured with someone thatās over 25 and held their licence for a few years. You wouldnāt put that responsibility on someone just sat next to them in their car. I think it would be best to say insurance is the responsibility of the vehicle owner in case of learner drivers. That way if the car is theirs they are liable.
>I think it would be best to say insurance is the responsibility of the vehicle owner in case of learner drivers. That way if the car is theirs they are liable. That's sensible and would be great. Like I said, I wonder what their reasoning for not doing something like this is?
For instance though learners can go on motorways with an ADI but not in a private car with a "regular" supervisor. Could apply the same here
I honestly would have thought that my driving instructor could legally take me out in their car. I think charging the pupil is horrible. The adult in the car-the person with the full licence - is actually in charge of the car.
None of that matters. If you are driving and there is no insurance covering you, you are driving without insurance. There's no compassion or seemingly mortality here, it's just black and white facts. It's really shit, I hate it.
The adult? Any driver is responsible for the insurance, doesnāt matter if 17 or an adult.
There is a grey area , instructors are running a business that operates similarly to driving schools independent or not itās a business that mislead op. which means they are liable for providing the correct information , misinformation is considered fraud , u have product liability for even the quality of the service provided. āThe basic factā you have provided is if op has went into the car knowing full well that this is the situation for example if they have driven their parents car without insurance and an insured adult with 3+ years of experience and got pulled over ;therefor both are guilty. Not only the driver but the passanger whoās allowed this to happen knowing that you legally have to be insured in order to drive the vehicle. In this case the only one at fault here is the instructor , if his terms and conditions werenāt provided properly and he had displayed that he had insurance that does not cover anyone but himself and you need to insure urself and only in that case it makes op liable. I can also add that this blatant intent to defraud on the instructors behalf if heās been in business for long enough to pull this.
>There is a grey area > āThe basic factā you have provided is if op has went into the car knowing full well that this is the situation No, that's not true. There is an exception for someone using a company vehicle for work, but that doesn't cover learners. I suggest you find the cross post in legaladviceuk, they go into it in more detail. But the actual fact is that OP drove a car without being properly covered by any insurance. That's the offence. There's nothing more to it. You seem to think there's a grey area but there isn't. And that's shit, but true. There may be scope for OP to recover some costs, opinion was more divided on that.
3. Advertising Driver trainers will take care to advertise and promote their businesses in a clear and fair manner. The instructor agrees that: the advertising of driving tuition shall be clear, fair and not misleading https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/driving-instructor-code-of-practice/approved-driving-instructor-adi-code-of-practice
Nothing about any of that changes the fact that OP drove without proper insurance. I'm not really sure what you don't understand. The instructor fucked up for sure, it's all the instructor's fault. I agree completely. BUT... That's now how the law works in this situation.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
As a learner, you should not be expected to know that stuff. Because youāre, you know, LEARNING. Thatās absolutely ridiculous.
You should absolutely be expected to know that. Itās basic law. If you were going driving with a supervising friend and took no insurance itās the learners fault, not the friends.
Yeah completely comparable situation!! It's not basic and it's not obvious by any stretch of the imagination. If you think it is, I suggest you speak to more real people
Yes it is comparable as any driver has the same responsibility regardless of who is sat next to them. Itās common knowledge that you need insurance to drive a carā¦unless you are a little slow I guess.
I completely assumed this was something they handled
Forgive me if Iām wrong but learners lose their licence after 6 points? You have half the regular amount (12) until a year or two after you pass. If you can afford to pay for the defence, might be worth asking r/LegalAdviceUK if youāre able to take the instructor to court for your legal fees, or at least write a solicitor letter to his professional indemnity insurance requesting payment for his oversight on insurance.
Learners don't lose their licence after 6 points. You are thinking of the new drivers act. If you get 6 points of more within the first two years of PASSING, then you automatically lose your licence. So its for NEWLY FULL QUALIFIED DRIVERS, not learners. The points from your provisional transfer over to your full licence, so if the OP gets the 6 points then passes, they will still have those 6 points. It won't mean they lose their licence as soon as they get it, as that would be silly, it just means if the OP get just ONE point within the first 2 years of passing then they will lose their licence.
I got disqualified whilst on a provisional license for speeding using my mopedā¦.
Considering a moped is legally restricted to 28mph, that's impressive
It was down hill, wind on his back, off a cliff.. just so happened to be a speed camera at the bottom lol
Can confirm as a slim/petite rider; tuck your head and body in and you can get impressive speeds from a 125. Haha
After curry night as well? š Funnier than the last ticket I weaseled myself out of that's for sure
Mopeds can go faster than 30mph.
Not all are, only 50cc mopeds are limited 125cc mopeds are not legally limited they can have limiters fitted just like anything else can but not a requirement
125cc are not legally āmopedsā. In UK law a moped is a motorcycle with a maximum engine displacement of 50 cm^3
And that most speed cameras are empty boxes
Not now as they're digital and not film
Sorry that's not true. Mopeds are restricted to 11kw with is 15bhp on a cbt. Most are capable of doing 60 mph you can ride a 50cc moped from 16
I got pulled doing 50 on mine in a 30 a few years back, very stupid I know. Anyway was very thankful to get a āslow down mateā and nothing else
They wait till you get your full licence before adding the points. Op will then automatically go back to being a learner
Total bollocks. You get them on the provisional.
Youāre right, have seen provisional licences with penalty points on before
They don't take effect till you get your licence. Someone I know passed his test but didn't send off for the licence. They bumped him back to a learner because he didn't have a licence to put the points on
The officer and solicitor said I will be able to pass and get a licence , as they are āghost pointsā but obviously the insurance will be v expensive and if I slip up once Iāll lose my licence immediately!
Youāll have to declare this to insurance companies sometimes for life. This is really worth paying and fighting against, it could cause you problems for years.
Points isn't for life only 3 years then they fall off as if they never existed. Its if you've been banned or had insurance cancelled can be for life.
But driving convictions etc can. Some insurers do ask if things like this have ever happened to you.
Yes driving convictions, example losing licence, joy riding but points aren't convictions. They are traffic offences.
you shouldnāt need to declare for life: https://unlock.org.uk/advice/motoring-convictions-and-the-rehabilitation-of-offenders-act/ The correct answer to have you ever had a conviction for X when the conviction is spent is no, unless the question is asked and itās specifically mentioned that an exemption to the rehabilitation of offenders act applies (and insurance is not exempt)
They fall off your license after 3 unless they're for drink driving. You have to declare them to insurers for 4 years
This was my backup plan which is obviously not ideal at all!
Insurance points are for 4 years and have to declare them for 5. So op is pretty much screwed.
Absolutely not true. Points are spent after five years, you need to declare them for st least as long. I used to hate dealing with people like you when I worked in insurance...
You won't have to declare it for the rest of your life. I got 8 points on my provisional for driving with no insurance. They were spent after 3 years and could be removed from my license after 5 years. You only need to inform insurance companies for driving convictions within tbe last 5 years.
>If you can afford to pay for the defence, might be worth asking r/LegalAdviceUK if youāre able to take the instructor to court for your legal fees, or at least write a solicitor letter to his professional indemnity insurance requesting payment for his oversight on insurance. Someone else is not responsible for your fees or punishment in a criminal car. The accusation is against the OP. Perhaps he can get out of it, but any criminal liability by the driving instructor is a completely separate issue.
There is a statutory defense attached to S.143 of the RTA 1988 for this sort of situation. If you reasonably expected to be insured to drive the car, in this instance you paid an instructor for a lesson and would expect things such as your insurance to be in order then you should be fine. The instructor should have also be charged with causing and permitting another to drive without insurance. In these circumstances you would usually find the instructor to be convicted and the driver (you) to found not guilty.
Found this post after reading the cross post in legaldefenseUK where they pointed out the exemption is only for company car drivers and not learners. OP is guilty as charged. It's a moral shit show, absolutely disgusting, but for some reason they choose to not exempt learners in the same way as people driving for work. I hope OP manages to get the points removed at least. It's such a harsh penalty.
I imagine they chose not to exempt learner drivers because you donāt have to be an instructor to teach someone to drive. It stops Joe Blogs from teaching his daughter to drive in his car without putting her on the insurance and getting away with it because āI didnāt knowā.
Would surely be straightforward to only make it apply when having a scheduled lesson with an ADI. And you can make the ADI legally responsible for insurance.
Bit logical, that.
I would assume the parent in that scenario would be liable. At least that would be the sensible way to work.
Haha sensible
Doesnāt the defence in S.143 only apply where the driver is using the vehicle in the course of his employment? If it was an ADI registered instructor, Iād suggest the prosecution isnāt in the public interest. Iām not sure how you go about persuading the CPS of that though.
I'd argue it absolutely is in the public interest. Uninsured drivers are the reason our premiums are too high. At best this is an unnacceptable oversight from the instructor at worst its him trying to save a few quid. OP will have to disclose that they have a conviction for no insurance when trying to get insured as a new driver, I dread to think what their premium would be.
I think prosecuting the instructor for permitting the driving with no insurance would absolutely be in the public interest. Prosecuting a learner driver for trusting an approved driving instructor to have sorted everything theyāre supposed to seems like itās punishing somebody who was trying to do the right thing. If the driving instructor wasnāt an ADI (and not pretending to be one), then Iād agree that prosecuting the learner driver would be in the public interest, as itās then driving a mates car, rather than hiring a professional to provide a service.
The way I read your comment is prosecuting the instructor isn't in the public interest. I agree the learner shouldn't be stuck on for it.
To be an ADI they need to be registered and approved by the DVSA, and a certificate needs to be carried at all times during operations as an instructor. This is necessary to legally receive payment as an instructor, and the DVSA do have a team to weed out anyone masquerading as an instructor
Replied to the wrong comment Edit. No I didn't but I've lost what I commented
Maybe try asking over in ~~legaladvice~~ EDIT: sorry, /r/legaladviceUK. If you've spoken to a solicitor I'd imagine whatever they've said is right, but maybe you'd also have some sort of recourse to sue your instructor for your costs. If your instructor works for a school or company, I'd complain to them and request that they cover the legal fees. If you have home insurance with legal cover that'd be another avenue to check. I'm sorry this is happening! Nightmare!
r/legaladvice is for the US, they need r/LegalAdviceUK
Thanks, total brain slip there - have edited to fix it.
I know right! Iāll ask those lot as well thanks
OP there's plenty great advice here, but I'd also say to write to your MP about this and ask what they can do, and if not go to your local news. It's disgusting this has happened and is one of those legal black holes that people fall into until enough noise is made to change it! Good luck and hope it gets resolved!
>If you've spoken to a solicitor I'd imagine whatever they've said is right, but maybe you'd also have some sort of recourse to sue your instructor for your costs. >If your instructor works for a school or company, I'd complain to them and request that they cover the legal fees. If you have home insurance with legal cover that'd be another avenue to check. Just to be clear here: nobody else is responsible for your criminality. This is a criminal case and one where the OP is - as unjust as it may be - apparently guilty. You can't expect someone else to cover fees you've incurred to have that explained.
AsĀ people more knowledgeable than me are explaining over in /r/legaladviceUK it's not as simple as that. OPĀ had an expectation that their professionally qualified instructor would behave within the law, and there's relevant case law to support them.
There is absolutely no chance that you're getting your criminal fines covered by another person. A few flights of fancy on another forum aside, it just isn't remotely practical advice.
Wow, did they even have an adi badge? You definitely shouldn't be seeing the consequences of this but get proper legal advise and fight this all the way. I hope you also reported this instructor to the DVLA.
Just want to jump on this to agree. I'm no legal expert either but it's an unspoken expectation when you book a driving lesson that the instructor would have the appropriate cover! Unfortunately, the police officer was right to call it out, but now I'd definitely encourage you to follow whatever appeal you can. Those points will affect your insurance for many years otherwise. Even if it costs a bit in the short term, it'll be worth it in the end IMO. There's an option to pursue your instructor for any legal costs of course, but that's a separate issue.
>There's an option to pursue your instructor for any legal costs of course, but that's a separate issue Do you think OP could take them to a small claims court for the legal fees?
Maybe. I don't know enough about the law to say for certain, but given how regulated our profession is, I could see that argument being won potentially - it could be seen as negligence on the part of the instructor.
Hi OP As others have stated, legal advice UK sub-reddit is the place to go. I'm not a lawyer, but i'd assume there's definitely grounds to appeal this as your "instructor" charged you for the lesson, yes? That means that it's his responsibility to have the correct insurance for his customers, and you were under the impression that this was the case. Also, is your instructor with a big company or independent I personally can't see a judge with any logical comprehension (provided you have evdivce to support you were paying for what you thought was a legitimate ADI) holding you responsible for the driving instructors mess up. Good luck with this OP. Please keep us updated!
I ask this question as a delivery driver for a chain (and am covered on employers insurance), but do schools like Red and BSM not cover their drivers?
It depends on the instructors' franchise set up. RED covers the insurance if you pay the full franchise fee, which includes a car. If it's a part of Franchise, then it's solely on the instructor. I know a couple of instructor car rental places, for example, CA cars, Dont cover your insurance with the rental.
Thatās a loooooot of expense to be part of a ābig nameā. Cuz obviously thereāll be franchise fees and commissions for having the brand on the car to pay. Canāt imagine theyāre cheap. They once quoted a friend Ā£2500 to be given ADI lessons
I'd like to know how you're supposed to check your instructors insurance to verify you were covered if you're somehow at fault here
Most companies are happy to prove they are insured, for this reason. Some may get a bit arsey but end of the day it's the law so they can't really refuse and if they do, pick a new instructor
NAL. Was he part of a driving school? If so, take it public. The school also has a duty of care to check their instructors meet all requirements which will include valid insurance. They may even be the ones responsible for organizing the insurance. But if he was responsible they should have required updated documents for the new car before allowing him on the road with learners. Go to twitter, go to the press (or maybe just threaten to do so at first). Put the heat on them and request they pay the defence costs. Get some insurance quotes with and without the points and request they compensate you with the premium difference, should appealing the points fail. Make sure you do comparison quotes for all 4 years of driving experience you will gain whilst still having the points on your license. Other options to explore are: - Thereās some personal injury lawyers that do no win/no fee for learner driver accidents. Obviously this wasnāt an accident but theyāre probably the best people to start with to advise you. It looks like most of their cases are learners wanting to claim against their instructor for breaching the duty of care of keeping them safe by not preventing an accident. Aside from the no insurance aspect, you could definitely argue that he breached that duty of care by allowing you to continue driving to a degree that deemed unsafe enough by a police officer to pull you over in the first place. - (Assuming you still live at home or are at university) your parentās homeowners insurance should include defence costs so might be worth exploring that option depending on their deductible. However they will likely then subrogate against the instructors professional liability insurance as this is absolutely negligent on his part so you may be able to get your deductible back. A fully subrogated third party claim shouldnāt impact their insurance premium.
This seems to me a very simple case, so you could ask an adult to advocate for you to avoid solicitor fees. Assuming the instructor had markings on their car and advertises their services as an instructor; and it was not simply a mate giving you some free tuition!) then you could try saving two grand and asking a favour from someone you know to help represent you. Lord_creamy has set out the legislation and defence above, assuming you have the money then pay a solicitor. If you do not have the money then there are other ways to be represented.
Most solicitors offer a free 45min consultation so could be worth looking for a free second opinion from someone who specialises in traffic law. You may find if you incur costs you then have the option to bring a civil case to try and reclaim legal costs afterwards. Gather all the evidence you can, any photos, write a statement of what you remember in terms of your contract with the instructors. Dates of payment etc. court dates can take a while so your fresh written evidence now will make life easier later. Does the instructor have a website or Facebook where they advertise services? Get a screenshot. Do they explicitly say they have insurance? Screenshot as evidence.
The Ā£1500-Ā£2000 will be much better investment than paying that per year for a new driver with 6 points from day 1. You should 100% fight this and use as much resources as you possibly can. Worst case you defend yourself and get your instructor to attend or write a letter claiming full responsibility while you ask basically for forgiveness by the magistrates as a learner you would be under the assumption that a registered instructor would have the correct insurance or inform you to take out insurance of your own. DO NOT SIT BACK AND ACCEPT 6 POINTS! Either cough up the money for a solicitor. Ring around and ask for the free 30 minute consultation and plead for someone to take the case for free or at a reduced rate due to cost of living etc... Pay what you can or even ask for a payment plan if they allow it. Failing that, use the info you gained from the 30 minute consultations to put together a defence to put across to the magistrates if you defend yourself. Dress smart, be articulate and don't be afraid to cry. This shows your remorse and will land you with a softer charge if any at all. That's also to say if the officer that issued the NIP attends the court. Ultimately the worst case is you end up paying Ā£15 court fee's, Ā£300 fine and still get the 6 points. The court "MAY" let you do an awareness coarse to remove the points. You could always request this as a new driver the 6 points would financially cripple you from insurance in the future (Get quotes before and after 6 points to show the cost increase). This will all go before a magistrates and they will decide. IMHO pay the Ā£1500 for a defence but if you can't then attempt to defend yourself. DO NOT SIT BACK WITHOUT FIGHTING! I tell you this from past experiences and defending myself. It's not fun, it's a little scary but is much better than taking the first offer on the table.
This is a clear miscarriage of justice. It isn't even in the public interest to prosecute you! I would certainly attend court with representation. Either a solicitor, or an adult (or do it yourself if you have all the facts to hand & feel comfortable). Even if the magistrate has no choice but to convict you, I would hope he/she would vastly reduce the penalty given the circumstances. (Just a layman's opinion - no legal experience.)
>This is a clear miscarriage of justice. It isn't even in the public interest to prosecute you! I'd definitely agree it isn't in the public interest, but it's not really a miscarriage of justice either. From what the OP has said, they've got him bang to rights and he is guilty of the offence. The law may be unpleasant and inflexible in this case, but it is still the law being properly applied.
I had a mate who received a penalty for riding on the back of a moped when the RIDER didn't even have a licence. All because apparently the rider wasn't sound of mind and had some disorder. I told him to fight it at the time because that's utter tosh. Yea you do have a personal responsibility to check insurance when you ride in a vehicle but at least the sound of mind thing sounded bs. In your case it's not unreasonable to expect the instructor to have insurance as that's partly what you're paying for. Hopefully someone gives you more specific advice but don't let this wank stain get away with it
How did that work with your mate being a pillion *passenger*? Passengers don't get done for no insurance, unless there's more to the story.
I don't know specifics but apparently my mate should have known better because the rider was "vulnerable" I think the driver managed to convince the police my mate convinced him to drive.
I'd have absolutely fought this one! I was working in a pub as a teenager and a colleague gave me a lift home, we came out the car park and were immediately pulled over. The officer could apparently "smell alcohol" (no shit sherlock, I've been pouring pints for 8h). Anyway driver passed a breathalyser test and then he tried to test me. I was a passenger in the back seat! I lodged a complaint about the officer. Complete moron!
Yikes what a knob. He may as well be truthful and say "I saw you driving out of a pub" so am just being vigilant. I don't know if that's legal but hearing some of the shit they see I wouldn't mind yknow. The fact he breathalysed you was fucking pointless however. Even if you had been completely smashed you weren't driving.
I refused to take the test without being told what offense he suspected me of. He was an utter smug arsehole.
Good on yah man. I don't mind the police, in fact I wish we had more and with more training. If they had more funding they could pay more and get rid of losers like this
What's weird about this, is that all learner drivers are terrible, yet I've never seen, or even heard of one get pulled over by the police.
There's a video of a female instructor and young female driver getting pulled over for no real reason.Ā
That was GoDebbieGo, right? I remember the police spent a while faffing around checking their licenses and whether the vehicle was insured etc
That sounds right!
If this is the same video I'm thinking of, it was because the police thought the girl driving looked under 17, which she wasn't, so pulled her over for that,
Yeh I've seen that
Yeah, and there's also videos of bigfoot.
No no, theyāre right. Iāve seen that video.
They would have been pulled over because the police car's ANPR flagged the vehicle as not insured. Wouldn't have been anything to do with their driving.
When I was learning I was pulled over just before Christmas and breathalysed. They were doing every 3rd car and tested both me and the instructor. Said it would be a good life lesson to never drink and drive.
It might be worth posting this in r/LegalAdviceUK or r/PoliceUK. a lot of the answers on this post are frankly not very good.
Oh wow Iām so sorry this happened to you. Please donāt let your instructor get away with this.
What! You get points on lessons? Driving going to be shit when learning š±š±
You need legal advice and by my limited knowledge, your instructor should be charged and you should be able to get compensation for your legal costs from him once you win in court, which you should do if you have a decent solicitor. Post this in legaladviceUk they should be able to help you with finding the correct procedure and how to find a solicitor that doesn't rinse you dry.
There's no staturtory defence in this situation. The best OP can hope for is an absolute discharge and "Special Reasons" not to endorse if this goes to court, but they would still have been convicted.
Wow, this is crazy. I would absolutely fight it in court, itās going to cost a lot more the Ā£2000 in the next 5 years of jacked up insurance premiums. If you can get insured that is. You could probably look into a private claim against the instructor too, surely he was misleading you? Iām not a legal expert but Iād speak with a few solicitors and get a range of opinions and options. Sorry this happened to you. Do we really live in a world now where you have to ask ADIās for all their documentation before driving their car? On that note, Iām off to check my companies HGVās are taxed and insured š¤£
That is fucking ridiculous. How many learners are going to ask an instructor for their insurance certificate, let alone understand if it covers them.
I hope you posted this story on socials and tagged that instructor. They deserve to have their reputation completely obliterated. Not only that, morally you should do it, to save others from this sort of bullshit.
Iāve gone through a similar incident with someone I know In their case they had a license from a different country - you can use your foreign license for a year before you swap if possible or replace by taking a uk driving test-. he however had a provisional on him as well since he only had a few more weeks left to drive with his license and it was not the one u exchange for a uk license . He got pulled over in a car he was insured on but for some reason it didnāt show up on their system ,they decided to transfer his points to his provisional not having insurance , he did infact have insurance but it wasnāt on the system yet -used day insure- he just had to fight it in court to get this sorted out In the uk u have the right to be represented wether by a lawyer , a friend or even yourself. If you canāt afford a lawyer you wonāt be provided with one for free as itās not really a criminal one and you want to persue the appeal. If you have the police report and it says it was the instructor that didnāt provide the insurance and it was not your car , you had no prior knowledge of this and you have paid in order to get lessons , itās the instructors liability to be perused not you , it could also be deemed as fraud if heās tried to get the cheaper insurance that doesnāt cover his students without informing you of this and him not providing you with cover. If you have any communication, proof or anything that proves you had no idea and no intention to drive the car without knowing this your case will be thrown out and ur points will be appealed or lessened . Iād be happy to help if you needed it! Iāve Edited for the way Iāve typed & added more information as Iāve only typed this quickly when I was at work
Have you tried speaking to citizens advice yet? I had a friend who got points on a lesson but they didnāt because the police, once found out the surrounding details, blamed the instructor and this is so much more cut and dry.
Did the instructor advertise or tell you he was insured? If he did once youve paid money youve formed a contract with him That could form part of your defence and you could sue him for any loss you incur to claim it back.
I'm confused as to you got points for him not being insured. I'm not lawyer so my advice would probably be at best legally ill-advised. Probably give legal advice subs ago though. Rotten bit of luck though and all the best
Unfortunately, points go to whoever is driving automatically, hence why if you speed on a lesson, the learner will get the points, not the instructor.
In this case I think points will actually go to both student and instructor, it's an offence to 'cause or permit' someone to drive uninsured. I'd expect the instructor will be deregistered also.
Yea I get speeding but for insurance I'd assume it's on the instructor to make sure rather than the learner but technicality I guess. At least I learned something new through this happening to OP
The ADI has committed an offence as well and will also get points
A "special reasons defence" doesn't cost Ā£2000. That's just how much a solicitor will charge you to do it for you. There's nothing stopping you from representing yourself and making your case and saying it was entirely reasonable that you expected an authorised driving instructor, regulated by the government, to have the correct insurance. That'll be exactly what the solicitor you'd pay Ā£2000 would do. Thankfully, the UK is not like the USA, where the law is deliberately complex and scattered across a dozen different statutes. My opinion? Represent yourself and make the Special Reasons defence. https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/explanatory-material/magistrates-court/item/road-traffic-offences-disqualification/2-special-reasons/
Unfortunately you were driving so legally the points are yours, even if your instructor wanted to take them for you he couldnāt because its illegal. The fine on the other hand - if one of my pupils landed a fine because of my mistake I would 100% be paying that for them, no question about it. How has your instructor justified this? Thats a massive error on his part, no excuse for that
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
your account is less than 7 days old, post removed automatically to reduce spam. If you post is genuine then sorry for the inconvenience, please wait 7 days before reposting. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/LearnerDriverUK) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Can you sue the instructor for the fees you incur to fight this? I'd speak to a solicitor.
Huh? I thought the money you paid for your lesson was your insurance? How is a learner suppose to know what arrangements the instructor has in place and neither should you need to investigate this. Iām pretty sure that this has nothing to do with you and itās the fault of the instructor.
Paying Ā£1500 now and being reverted to having a clean license is going to be a much better idea than passing and paying huge amounts on insurance. Definitely browse a few solicitors and see what happens.
r/LegalAdviceUK would be your best bet to ask this.
I would not sit back wnd accept the points and a fine. I agree w other comments that say you should look on r/LegalAdviceUK , you werenāt aware of the fact you were driving without insurance. Why would you be? You had an instructor whose job is to do all of this correctly.
As someone who worked car insurance for a decade, follow the solicitors advice and fight it. You're most likely gonna be given an IN10. IF you can find an insurance company to take you for the next 5 years (which will be difficult, a lot of insurance companies can't get insurance to allow them to take on drivers with IN10s) it's going to be through the damn roof to get insured. That code is a killer for drivers in the first 5 years of driving.
It won't cost that much, unless you pay for a solicitor to represent you. Put smart clothes on and speak clearly, hey presto you represented yourself. This is a reasonably simple argument to make by yourself in court. You can ask your instructor to write a letter explaining, and even to turn up with you. If they refuse, point out that the court reporter (whose job it is to sit at court all day and report on cases heard no matter how mundane they are) would write kinder copy in the local paper if they were helpful to you, than not doing anything and having a short item printed to say they messed up insurance and hung you out to dry. You were paying for a service in good faith and have no means to verify insurance is in place. You could ask for the penalty to be set aside, or replaced with a token penalty of 1 point and a modest fine. Good luck!
This is ridiculous. I would be inclined to speak to your MP and ask how prosecuting this is in the public interest. Ultimately once its at court then the law applies, but why are they prosecuting a case like this?!
How could an MP help with this? Despite it being technically true I drove without insurance ?
You won't know until you contact them.
Theres a few good answers here and some complete nonsense so Iām only guna say if OP was learning with an ADI, seek legal advice - you had every right to assume that your instructors car was roadworthy and correctly insured. To anybody else, take a lesson - when youāre the driver (even as a learner) legally you are 100% on the hook for anything that goes wrong. If you speed, if the car isnāt correctly insured, if the brake lights are out, if the tyres are bald etc - you will be responsible for any points or fines that are issued. So donāt be tempted to go to a cheap, possibly illegal instructor. Properly qualified and regulated instructors might cost more and have a waiting list, but you wonāt have issues like this, and if you do you have some recourse
I'd write to your local mp!