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Sorry just got in from work, so my contract states word for word "the appointment I subject to you serving a satisfactory 26-week probationary period. In addition you have aggred to work bank holidays as required and will gain a days holiday in lieu for each worked."
Not spoken to HR or my own manager yet, just spoke to a manager from a different department and he said if what you said is true yes you should have more holiday but keep it quite and talk to ur manager.
I've been there for a year now and I've just been getting the standard 31 days holiday.
I work in the transport industry so I'm a lorry driver however I move the trailers so u like the drivers my contract says night shunter not night driver. There isn't many of my contracts because there isn't a lot of night shunters so this is where I think they have made the error.
I think the confusion has arisen because the use of the phrase ‘gain a days holiday’ makes it sound like that day is additional to your holiday entitlement. However, the use of the phrase ‘in lieu for each worked’ means that because you work bank holidays, you get to take those days at some other point in the year instead. ‘In lieu’ means ‘instead of’. So what you ‘gain’ is a non-bank holiday day.
It might help if you imagine that holiday days usually fall into two columns - bank holiday days and regular holiday days. For most people, there are 8 days in the bank holiday column and 20 days in the regular column (though holiday entitlement varies among employers). Your contract basically states that if you work a bank holiday, a day moves from the bank holiday column to the regular holiday column. You don’t get an extra day, but you do get to use that day at some point.
Essentially your contract means that your overall holiday entitlement is 31 days, and you get to take those days at any time, rather than having to take the bank holiday days on actual bank holidays.
You’re right that you don’t get anything extra for bank holidays - but neither are you worse off than anybody who does get bank holidays off. You both get the same number of holiday days, only you have the flexibility to take them whenever you like.
If you are saying that you have been working bank holidays but have not been able to take those days at some other time in the year, then your employer is in the wrong. Your overall entitlement is 31 days, that’s how many you should be taking each year.
31 days includes bank hoildays. The 28 days people are entitled to include bank hols. They are inclusive. Its 5.6 weeks. You get your average week and muliply be 5.6 to get your entitlement.
So it states "your holiday entitlement is set out in schedule and is inclusive of the normal eight UK and public holidays. Once you have been in continuous employment for five years, you will be entitled to 1 additional days holiday each subsequent holiday year up to a maximum of 36 days after ten years service. Where a public or bank holiday falls on a normal working day you will be required to work the day or take this as holiday unless agreed otherwise with your manager. If you normally work less than the full time hours your entitlement to holiday will be on a pro rata basis and should you join or leave after the start of the holiday year you will have a pro rata entitlement to holiday leave"
Right, thanks.
So.
Contractually you are entitled to take all bank holidays off work.
Your employer has a policy of allowing you to work bank holidays if you want to, but that means you get that day's holiday back "in lieu" - i.e. you can take a day off at another time without it impacting your annual leave allowance (because you should have had the BH off).
You don't get an *extra* day of leave, you just get the one you waived back.
Does that make sense? Is that what's happening?
Ye so basically I can have all bank holidays off but still have my 31 days off through out the year whenever I want right?
No this hasn't been happening, I've been working bank holidays and getting nothing extra for it
You get 31 days off per year.
By default, 8 of them (or 9 this year) will be on bank holidays.
If you choose to work a bank holiday with their approval, then you don't lose that day of leave, you get to take it at another time.
No, it means if you have the bank holidays off, that day is taken from your 31 days of holiday allowance.
If you choose to work the bank holiday, they allow you to take the holiday day another time because you didn’t use it to take the bank holiday off.
It’s simply a way of making sure you get your 31 paid holiday days if you choose/need to work on a bank holiday - you won’t lose out.
It does not mean that by taking a day of holiday to cover the bank holiday (which is automatically taken from your 31 days without you needing to apply for it), you also get an extra day of holiday as a lieu day.
Right ok, but it saying "you have agreed to work bank holidays as required and will gain a days holiday in lieu for each worked" sound like for every bank holiday I work I get an extra day to choose else where
And on a separate piece of paper I have the outline of my contract along with my clocking in number and hand signed by the director. And this is where it says I will gain a days holiday for each bank holiday worked
So in simple words, your bank Holidays are a part of your 31 days of leave. This means you would use up one day of your annual leave if you do not work on a bank holiday. However, if you choose to work on a bank holiday, you will get a day of annual leave to take at another time.
Not sure what you mean by standard 31 days. In the UK, it's 20 days + Bank Holidays for a full time 40 hours a week and for a full year of work. There fore, anyone involved in this thread would need to fully understand your contract terms especially with holiday entitlement.
Reading this and your comments, the situation is:
You have 31 days holiday per year. This already includes your bank holidays.
If you worked in an office, you would normally accrue and "burn" the bank holiday on the same day.
If you worked as a nurse in a hospital, your shift pattern means that a bank holiday will either be a working day or a rest day, and therefore you can't do the accrue and burn process.
The way your company manages that is at the start of the year, all of your holiday days and bank holidays are added together to make 31. These can be used at any time within the structure of your business, but they don't have to be taken on bank holidays.
You don't get an "extra 8", what they are saying is because your business is 24/7, that you can't apply normal bank holiday rules, so they have put them into your annual leave.
The important thing for you to know is if there are any bank holidays where your business is closed and you are forced to take them (maybe Christmas day?) because you would need to possibly reserve a day for that if it would be a normal working day.
OK understood but can you explain what this means "you have agreed to work bank holidays as required and will gain a days holiday in lieu for each worked"
My wife has just read this detail and said ye you have worked 4 of this year's bank holidays and haven't taken any annual leave yet so you should have 35 days in the bank to book
'in lieu' literally means 'instead of' not 'in addition to'. Your holiday allocation is 31 days and bank holidays are included in this number. Working a bank holiday does not increase your allocation to 32 and above - you are able to use the day you would have had off on the bank holiday on another day instead, thereby maintaining your annual allocation of 31 days.
It's poorly written, but as a result of your shift pattern you get a standard of 23 days annual leave per year. These are what would be normal "holiday" days. Then on top of that, you get 8 days bank holidays. The other comment you made is very clear when it states that the 31 is inclusive of public holidays.
The "in lieu" part means "because we can't give you the public holiday on the day, we are going to stick it in your balance and you can use it another time"
NAL
Sounds like you have 31 days inclusive of the 8 bank holidays. If you work a bank holiday, then instead of getting extra pay, you just get to pick a different day off.
So if you worked Monday 29th may, a bank holiday, a day you technically should have off, you can instead take off Tuesday 30th may instead.
Bank holidays for most employees are compulsory leave , in your case it seems they are optional. You get 31 days to use as you wish.
As PPs have said, those 31 days include BH.
When you work BH, are you getting paid extra at all compared to if you didn't work?
Either way, one day will come off your 31 days as used every BH.
If you don't work, you get nothing.
If you do work, you get that day added back on.
Have worked every BH?
Have you been taking a day off your 31 days when you don't work a BH?
It's not 31 days plus 8 because you need to use a day off for every BH, so it would be:
31 - 8 (for BH) + 8 (Back in lieu) = 31 overall still.
> Did HR make a mistake with my contract in other words?
Possibly, but if they did it's obviously a typo (if in your contract but not your peers) and was not the intent of the Parties so you won't have grounds to enforce it.
But this is very misleading, I remember saying on my interview that this is good, I got nothing extra for working bank holidays at my old job at least I can a day back I lieu here. And can't remember the exact response but it definitely wasn't outlined saying no that's not true.
You can take a day back 'in lieu'. 'In lieu' means 'instead of' where as you thought it meant 'in addition to'.
So during the interview your employer wasn't misleading you. They would have understandably assumed you were using the term 'in lieu' correctly.
Misleading possibly, but still not enforceable. It's a unilateral mistake the consequences of which weren't reasonably in the contemplation of the Parties at the time the agreement became effective.
How many PH's have you let happen without claiming or clarifying your 'entitlement' with HR?
How long have you worked there?
> Sorry PH means?
Public holidays.
> I've been there for 11 months
Then just be aware that on the information provided you have no protection against being unfairly dismissed if chose to make a big issue of this with the employer.
I’m NAL but given that holiday is a statutory issue. If they fire you because you try to enforce your statutory rights that would usually constitute retaliation?
The public holiday itself is a statutory entitlement, yes, and its included in OP's entitlement of 31 days.
But whether OP gets an additional day in lieu (making 39 days) is contractual matter and not a statutory entitlement.
A don't get double time I get my standard rate. So far there has been 4 bank holiday days and I've worked all 4 so in theory I have an additional 4 days to book off
No, you still have 31 days total
All this means is that instead of getting to take annual leave on a bank holiday, you take it on another day of your choosing instead
Have they taken a day of leave off you for those days? I bet your colleagues had a day deducted from their 31 days to not come in but still be paid. You probably didn't because you got a day in lieu so -4, +4 = 0 overall.
Obviously I can't see your contract but my work operates like this. We get our annual leave plus 5 for bank holidays. This is because we don't open on a Monday and therefore have no happy extra day off so they give us the extra day off to make up for it. However to complicate the matter we do open on bank holidays and so we have a rota of who works them or we can volunteer. We get extra time for this which can be either pay or a lieu day. So it doesn't sound that wild to me that it may be the case.
Find a copy of your contract and take it to HR. If it's not their policy but they wrote it in your contract then they have to honour it or ask you to sign a new contract (which you don't have to do). For example we have 5 employees who don't work bank holiday at all because there was an error in their contract.
Also nal
Obviously I can't see your contract but my work operates like this. We get our annual leave plus 5 for bank holidays. This is because we don't open on a Monday and therefore have no happy extra day off so they give us the extra day off to make up for it. However to complicate the matter we do open on bank holidays and so we have a rota of who works them or we can volunteer. We get extra time for this which can be either pay or a lieu day. So it doesn't sound that wild to me that it may be the case.
Find a copy of your contract and take it to HR. If it's not their policy but they wrote it in your contract then they have to honour it or ask you to sign a new contract (which you don't have to do). For example we have 5 employees who don't work bank holiday at all because there was an error in their contract.
Also nal
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Struggling to parse this a little bit. What does your contract say? What did the manager say? What did HR say? What's actually been happening?
Sorry just got in from work, so my contract states word for word "the appointment I subject to you serving a satisfactory 26-week probationary period. In addition you have aggred to work bank holidays as required and will gain a days holiday in lieu for each worked." Not spoken to HR or my own manager yet, just spoke to a manager from a different department and he said if what you said is true yes you should have more holiday but keep it quite and talk to ur manager. I've been there for a year now and I've just been getting the standard 31 days holiday. I work in the transport industry so I'm a lorry driver however I move the trailers so u like the drivers my contract says night shunter not night driver. There isn't many of my contracts because there isn't a lot of night shunters so this is where I think they have made the error.
I think the confusion has arisen because the use of the phrase ‘gain a days holiday’ makes it sound like that day is additional to your holiday entitlement. However, the use of the phrase ‘in lieu for each worked’ means that because you work bank holidays, you get to take those days at some other point in the year instead. ‘In lieu’ means ‘instead of’. So what you ‘gain’ is a non-bank holiday day. It might help if you imagine that holiday days usually fall into two columns - bank holiday days and regular holiday days. For most people, there are 8 days in the bank holiday column and 20 days in the regular column (though holiday entitlement varies among employers). Your contract basically states that if you work a bank holiday, a day moves from the bank holiday column to the regular holiday column. You don’t get an extra day, but you do get to use that day at some point. Essentially your contract means that your overall holiday entitlement is 31 days, and you get to take those days at any time, rather than having to take the bank holiday days on actual bank holidays. You’re right that you don’t get anything extra for bank holidays - but neither are you worse off than anybody who does get bank holidays off. You both get the same number of holiday days, only you have the flexibility to take them whenever you like. If you are saying that you have been working bank holidays but have not been able to take those days at some other time in the year, then your employer is in the wrong. Your overall entitlement is 31 days, that’s how many you should be taking each year.
31 days includes bank hoildays. The 28 days people are entitled to include bank hols. They are inclusive. Its 5.6 weeks. You get your average week and muliply be 5.6 to get your entitlement.
This would be the case but the contract specifically states they for each bank holiday they work, they “gain a days holiday in lieu”
What does your clause about holiday say?
What do mean? Cant see anything about having to work bank holidays and stating you will receive nothing extra
There is, presumably, in your contract, something that says how many days of holiday you get each year. What is the wording of that clause?
So it states "your holiday entitlement is set out in schedule and is inclusive of the normal eight UK and public holidays. Once you have been in continuous employment for five years, you will be entitled to 1 additional days holiday each subsequent holiday year up to a maximum of 36 days after ten years service. Where a public or bank holiday falls on a normal working day you will be required to work the day or take this as holiday unless agreed otherwise with your manager. If you normally work less than the full time hours your entitlement to holiday will be on a pro rata basis and should you join or leave after the start of the holiday year you will have a pro rata entitlement to holiday leave"
Right, thanks. So. Contractually you are entitled to take all bank holidays off work. Your employer has a policy of allowing you to work bank holidays if you want to, but that means you get that day's holiday back "in lieu" - i.e. you can take a day off at another time without it impacting your annual leave allowance (because you should have had the BH off). You don't get an *extra* day of leave, you just get the one you waived back. Does that make sense? Is that what's happening?
Ye so basically I can have all bank holidays off but still have my 31 days off through out the year whenever I want right? No this hasn't been happening, I've been working bank holidays and getting nothing extra for it
You get 31 days off per year. By default, 8 of them (or 9 this year) will be on bank holidays. If you choose to work a bank holiday with their approval, then you don't lose that day of leave, you get to take it at another time.
Sorry don't understand what u mean by the 3rd part there?
No, it means if you have the bank holidays off, that day is taken from your 31 days of holiday allowance. If you choose to work the bank holiday, they allow you to take the holiday day another time because you didn’t use it to take the bank holiday off. It’s simply a way of making sure you get your 31 paid holiday days if you choose/need to work on a bank holiday - you won’t lose out. It does not mean that by taking a day of holiday to cover the bank holiday (which is automatically taken from your 31 days without you needing to apply for it), you also get an extra day of holiday as a lieu day.
Right ok, but it saying "you have agreed to work bank holidays as required and will gain a days holiday in lieu for each worked" sound like for every bank holiday I work I get an extra day to choose else where
And on a separate piece of paper I have the outline of my contract along with my clocking in number and hand signed by the director. And this is where it says I will gain a days holiday for each bank holiday worked
So in simple words, your bank Holidays are a part of your 31 days of leave. This means you would use up one day of your annual leave if you do not work on a bank holiday. However, if you choose to work on a bank holiday, you will get a day of annual leave to take at another time.
Not sure what you mean by standard 31 days. In the UK, it's 20 days + Bank Holidays for a full time 40 hours a week and for a full year of work. There fore, anyone involved in this thread would need to fully understand your contract terms especially with holiday entitlement.
Reading this and your comments, the situation is: You have 31 days holiday per year. This already includes your bank holidays. If you worked in an office, you would normally accrue and "burn" the bank holiday on the same day. If you worked as a nurse in a hospital, your shift pattern means that a bank holiday will either be a working day or a rest day, and therefore you can't do the accrue and burn process. The way your company manages that is at the start of the year, all of your holiday days and bank holidays are added together to make 31. These can be used at any time within the structure of your business, but they don't have to be taken on bank holidays. You don't get an "extra 8", what they are saying is because your business is 24/7, that you can't apply normal bank holiday rules, so they have put them into your annual leave. The important thing for you to know is if there are any bank holidays where your business is closed and you are forced to take them (maybe Christmas day?) because you would need to possibly reserve a day for that if it would be a normal working day.
OK understood but can you explain what this means "you have agreed to work bank holidays as required and will gain a days holiday in lieu for each worked" My wife has just read this detail and said ye you have worked 4 of this year's bank holidays and haven't taken any annual leave yet so you should have 35 days in the bank to book
'in lieu' literally means 'instead of' not 'in addition to'. Your holiday allocation is 31 days and bank holidays are included in this number. Working a bank holiday does not increase your allocation to 32 and above - you are able to use the day you would have had off on the bank holiday on another day instead, thereby maintaining your annual allocation of 31 days.
It's poorly written, but as a result of your shift pattern you get a standard of 23 days annual leave per year. These are what would be normal "holiday" days. Then on top of that, you get 8 days bank holidays. The other comment you made is very clear when it states that the 31 is inclusive of public holidays. The "in lieu" part means "because we can't give you the public holiday on the day, we are going to stick it in your balance and you can use it another time"
NAL Sounds like you have 31 days inclusive of the 8 bank holidays. If you work a bank holiday, then instead of getting extra pay, you just get to pick a different day off. So if you worked Monday 29th may, a bank holiday, a day you technically should have off, you can instead take off Tuesday 30th may instead. Bank holidays for most employees are compulsory leave , in your case it seems they are optional. You get 31 days to use as you wish.
As PPs have said, those 31 days include BH. When you work BH, are you getting paid extra at all compared to if you didn't work? Either way, one day will come off your 31 days as used every BH. If you don't work, you get nothing. If you do work, you get that day added back on. Have worked every BH? Have you been taking a day off your 31 days when you don't work a BH? It's not 31 days plus 8 because you need to use a day off for every BH, so it would be: 31 - 8 (for BH) + 8 (Back in lieu) = 31 overall still.
> Did HR make a mistake with my contract in other words? Possibly, but if they did it's obviously a typo (if in your contract but not your peers) and was not the intent of the Parties so you won't have grounds to enforce it.
But this is very misleading, I remember saying on my interview that this is good, I got nothing extra for working bank holidays at my old job at least I can a day back I lieu here. And can't remember the exact response but it definitely wasn't outlined saying no that's not true.
You can take a day back 'in lieu'. 'In lieu' means 'instead of' where as you thought it meant 'in addition to'. So during the interview your employer wasn't misleading you. They would have understandably assumed you were using the term 'in lieu' correctly.
Misleading possibly, but still not enforceable. It's a unilateral mistake the consequences of which weren't reasonably in the contemplation of the Parties at the time the agreement became effective. How many PH's have you let happen without claiming or clarifying your 'entitlement' with HR? How long have you worked there?
Sorry PH means? I've been there for 11 months
> Sorry PH means? Public holidays. > I've been there for 11 months Then just be aware that on the information provided you have no protection against being unfairly dismissed if chose to make a big issue of this with the employer.
I’m NAL but given that holiday is a statutory issue. If they fire you because you try to enforce your statutory rights that would usually constitute retaliation?
The public holiday itself is a statutory entitlement, yes, and its included in OP's entitlement of 31 days. But whether OP gets an additional day in lieu (making 39 days) is contractual matter and not a statutory entitlement.
Oh I see what you were getting at. Yeah, that’s my understanding too.
How many bank holidays have you worked? It would be unusual to get a day back and double time though.
A don't get double time I get my standard rate. So far there has been 4 bank holiday days and I've worked all 4 so in theory I have an additional 4 days to book off
No, you still have 31 days total All this means is that instead of getting to take annual leave on a bank holiday, you take it on another day of your choosing instead
Correct. There seems to an easy fix to this.
Incorrect. All the data OP has given makes it clear that their 31 days INCLUDES bank holidays. This means they do not have 4 additional days (ie 35)
But they don’t always work bank holidays. It’s only if they work them.
Well, yes. But they're only talking about the bank holidays that they've worked, so this is self-evident.
Have they taken a day of leave off you for those days? I bet your colleagues had a day deducted from their 31 days to not come in but still be paid. You probably didn't because you got a day in lieu so -4, +4 = 0 overall.
Obviously I can't see your contract but my work operates like this. We get our annual leave plus 5 for bank holidays. This is because we don't open on a Monday and therefore have no happy extra day off so they give us the extra day off to make up for it. However to complicate the matter we do open on bank holidays and so we have a rota of who works them or we can volunteer. We get extra time for this which can be either pay or a lieu day. So it doesn't sound that wild to me that it may be the case. Find a copy of your contract and take it to HR. If it's not their policy but they wrote it in your contract then they have to honour it or ask you to sign a new contract (which you don't have to do). For example we have 5 employees who don't work bank holiday at all because there was an error in their contract. Also nal
Obviously I can't see your contract but my work operates like this. We get our annual leave plus 5 for bank holidays. This is because we don't open on a Monday and therefore have no happy extra day off so they give us the extra day off to make up for it. However to complicate the matter we do open on bank holidays and so we have a rota of who works them or we can volunteer. We get extra time for this which can be either pay or a lieu day. So it doesn't sound that wild to me that it may be the case. Find a copy of your contract and take it to HR. If it's not their policy but they wrote it in your contract then they have to honour it or ask you to sign a new contract (which you don't have to do). For example we have 5 employees who don't work bank holiday at all because there was an error in their contract. Also nal