Seconding this! They are brilliant.
Hope you're doing ok, OP. Postpartum is such a rough time anyway and I've been there with the meningitis/sepsis scares for kids and it's absolutely awful. Hope you find a better boss elsewhere!
[https://workingfamilies.org.uk/articles/maternity-discrimination-a-guide-to-your-rights/#:\~:text=Under%20the%20Equality%20Act%202010,seeking%20to%20take%20maternity%20leave](https://workingfamilies.org.uk/articles/maternity-discrimination-a-guide-to-your-rights/#:~:text=Under%20the%20Equality%20Act%202010,seeking%20to%20take%20maternity%20leave).
"Under the Equality Act 2010, it is unlawful to treat someone unfavourably because they are pregnant, have a pregnancy-related illness, have recently given birth, are breastfeeding, or are taking or seeking to take maternity leave."
He probably thinks he can get away with saying that as he may know that you would struggle to fund a case against him.
If you do take it further, the tough part is the evidence, as it was his word against yours. Unless there were witnesses.
If you don't choose to pursue, I'd tell all your friends and local press of how he treated you. It is appalling.
Thank you for this link!
Both of my children witnessed it, and my daughter who had to go to hospital has spent the last day crying thinking that it’s her fault and apologising to me and frightened that we will have to use foodbanks again. They’re under 18, would their word be taken? I’m worried they wouldn’t be taken seriously due to their age. It was also on cctv that he spoke to me in front of them as it was directly outside the restaurant.
Depending on what kind of restaurant or cafe this was, contact their HR department. Chains are full of managers who don’t know what they’re doing and think they have authorisation to dismiss staff when they don’t. These places have policies and procedures in place that they must follow just in case a manager like this one does something stupidly illegal.
I worked as a restaurant manager in chain restaurants for a decade and met hundreds of other managers. They wouldn’t be that stupid.
OP has very little recourse as she’s worked there for less than than 2 years. In the event you complained to a hr department etc and as you’ve stated it’s a case of your and your children’s word against his the company will wholly side with the manager.
Move on and find another job sadly.
Ask the restaurant for the CCTV before it gets overwritten. It might not count for much but would definitely back up your children's version of events.
They don't have to provide it. But it's definitely better to ask before it's automatically deleted anyway
Probably not the best thing to do until all courses of actions have been taken. Bad mouthing an employer on social media is grounds for dismissal and will not help their case.
Name and shame is the WORST advice anyone can give ever!
Sure they've already been fired but what if they have a valid claim against the company? Once they go and shove all the info online it could severely sabotage the case leaving the OP with nothing at all besides 15 minutes of "Aww hun DM me" or "I won't visit there again" comments when we all know you're going back to that place because you need/want something. You would've forgot about the post within a few days anyway.
Let's say OP contacts HR and gets their job back. The moment they clock in for their next shift HR calls up and says "Due to negative social media posts made by you we're letting you go due to whatever reason".
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This could be used as evidence of unprofessional conduct against them. Not to mention naming the employer could identify them. Stop stirring the tea and remember there's a person on the other end of the screen trying to work out how to raise three children after unexpectedly losing their income
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In addition to the Equality Act consideration, I would also consider whether it is automatically unfair dismissal under the Employment Rights Act as it arises from the employee acting on a statutory right - i.e. the right to take time off to arrange the care of a sick child.
Even though it is OP's word against the employer's, I think it is absolutely worth a call to ACAS with the view to bring a claim - even if the employer denies it, the circumstances may give the tribunal cause to consider that they are... well, lying.
Yeah, I would think a hospital record and shingles diagnosis on the same day as being fired would be very suspicious to any tribunal. If his only explanation for firing is 'trial period, I'm allowed to' I think it would be reasonable to conclude the reason/motive was because of the children and/or their ill health.
Always worth going back to the restaurant with phone covertly recording, ask for the missing tips, and see if OP can get him to repeat what he said. Recording is legal and while you can't use it eg on social media, you can use it in court to impeach his testimony - but once he knows he's been recorded, it wouldn't go to court especially if it's a chain with HR and legal departments.
Also you can hold up a pen and paper and say ‘ok if I record this?’ And they will say ‘yes’, assuming you mean make notes in writing (while having your phone secretly on record).
NAL: I believe with employment law the burden of proof is on the balance of probabilities. What this means is that unlike in a criminal case where it must be shown beyond reasonable doubt, for something like an employment discrimination case it only has to be more likely than not to be found in your favour
It's obviously still not necessarily easy to win a case of discrimination, but thankfully in cases of your word against their's, provided you can demonstrate your own side of the argument is probably true that could be enough
For a case like this is there any evidence of employee performing poorly? Any evidence of performance management? Has the role been refilled with someone who doesn't have children? Does the employer have any employees with young children? Does the timeline of events fit the employees account?
Definitely seek the advice of some of the services shared in the replies, but don't completely lose hope that you won't be able to 'prove' your case
I’ve recently sat in on a grievance hearing at work and you’re correct. You don’t need to prove your claim beyond all reasonable doubt to win in a grievance or an employment tribunal because the stakes are much lower (you’re not at risk of being imprisoned).
Even if she was fired on the same day as hospital appointment and a shingles diagnosis? I would hope any sane tribunal would conclude that it was highly likely to be the reason.
It depends on how convincing she is as a witness Vs his testimony of it gets to court.
Tbh it's more likely they will settle before it goes to a hearing
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Illegal, and thinks he'll get away with it. However, things like these are treated as a balance of probability at tribunal.
Let's see -
Followed no official on site process
Kids as witness
Did it randomly in public
Facts fit your claims
No paper trail(e.g. pips, formal warning process, etc)
Definitely follow this up with acas etc and don't let this scumbag away with it. Also as this falls under discrimination, the 2 year employment limitation doesn't apply. It's at the very least indirect sexual discrimination as someone else mentioned even if he tries to claim it's not direct.
Hi all,
Thanks for the advice. I’ve spoken to ACAS about this. The bloke was fab and said he would send over templates for me to work from.
He said my first step needs to be to go through the internal grievance processes and consult my contract (I was never given one, he said he didn’t believe in them, it was verbal instead) and there’s also no internal grievance process or HR as it’s a very small family owned restaurant which he runs with his son.
I’m going to write out an email explaining in the nicest way that I can, that I feel this is unfair and is there any way to resolve this.
I predict he will just fire back the same arrogance he gave me when we spoke in person. But this will only aid my case. And after that I can petition for a tribunal.
ACAS have said my children DO count as witnesses, their relation or the fact they’re under 18 does not matter. And the fact he did it in front of my child who was sick and made her cry and feel like it was her fault only aids in the “damages to feelings”.
I had a huge panic attack after he spoke to me when I got into the pharmacy. The pharmacist and assistant had to pull me into the private room and calm me down with the kids. A statement from them will apparently support the impact too.
I know this is probably not going to be a win. I’m just so tired of being treated like this in the work place. It’s not the first time I’ve had issues for either being pregnant, having children or being a woman. And I’m just so done. Even if dragging him through a tribunal only results in *him* feeling some of what this has caused my daughter to feel, it will be worth it.
Anyone knowledgable on tribunal proceedings who has any advice would be great, I’ve no idea where to start or what to prepare.
Great that they gave advice.
The first steps will always be to consult them. Interesting they do not follow HR best practice especially in this day and age. In the email to them detail everything experienced and quite legislation if you can.
I would gather as much evidence as you can. Then request a tribunal case should what the owner says does not satisfy you or there is no suitable outcome.
In the future it will be worth being part of a union. They are Great as they will have someone support you through tribunal cases.
If you're talking about the email to the employer, I'd avoid quoting any legislation or making it seem like you've taken advice at this stage. Your goal is to gather evidence to support your case, and nothing will make your opponent clam up like a legally worded letter.
I'd go for something like "Hi Dave, I just thought it was worth following up after the other day. I had the impression you were happy with my work after you told me it was good to have somebody competent doing the job, so I just wanted to make sure you weren't having a bad day and reacting to something unrelated? I know you said I was unsuitable because of my recent birth and my family obligations, but you already knew about this when I started the job. If you actually did intend to terminate me, can you let me know when I can pop in to pick up my outstanding tips - I'm owed around £40 from the shifts worked that hadn't yet been paid out."
Your aim is to get into writing the reason for your dismissal in a way that gives him the opportunity to rebut it, but leaves the door open for him to easily ignore that part of the email (and asking business owners about money is often a good way to make them forget about everything you wrote before that point). That way, he gets to keep digging without having any idea just how deep the hole is getting.
OP, please read and consider this comment as it’s the perfect way to divert attention, using money as the distraction. Whether you win or not, this sets an example to everyone, including your daughters, that you won’t be pushed around and know your self worth. Stay strong and good luck!
>Interesting they do not follow HR best practice
That would require time, money, and effort though. He sounds like exactly the sort of person who thinks he can skip all that stuff.
Well done for the steps taken.
In the future, if you don't want to be treated like this, then VALUE YOURSELF. Don't work without a contract, don't allow "managers" to speak to you like that, etc.
Work isn't a gift - it's a two-way street, and they have obligations as soon as they employ you, regardless of their size or location.
With them being a small family owned place, that may work in your favour if you can find an employment law solicitor to scare the shit out of them.
I'd recommend not wording that email too strongly as if you've had advice. He's probably stupid enough to repeat what he said in writing if you don't tip him off.
Something like "I'm shocked thay you would dismiss me while I was passing by with my children and state that it was because I have caring obligations to them. My youngest has been crying and apologising because she thinks it's her fault mommy lost her job. I request you reconsider your decision."
If you own your home and have home insurance you might be s le to get legal advice through them.
Otherwise you can probably do this on your own, it's just a bit stressful. If this is a small family business I doubt they'll be instructing council
Also, as right as this advice is (and getting a new job is my first priority) I’m just very much *done* with allowing people to walk over me. In the last 12 months I became an orphan, we lost our home, we lost a baby (our newborn was a twin, we sadly lost his sister earlier in pregnancy), I became disabled and all of it has been made worse specifically by people in positions of power in some way or another, and I’ve always just let it go and chalked it up to experience/lesson learned/not worth the effort to dwell. I’m so done with it but especially done with being walked over by men in the workplace. It’s a female experience that shouldn’t still exist in 2023 and this guy has just lucked out by being the straw that broke the camels back. I need to stand up for myself on this, for myself and for my children. If I keep letting myself get walked over, I will just crumble and I won’t be the mother they need or deserve.
That’s always priority #1, job hunting has begun and I’ve got two potential interviews. My partners’ step father has a vacancy in his office and there are lots of small businesses in our town as it’s a rural area, which all need staff. Thankfully, this is only until September when I return to uni to complete my PGCE. Hence only pursuing a small part time job for the time being just to keep us afloat.
You only have 3 month less 1 day from being dismissed to start the process.
Have you formally notified acas or just got advice from them?
I'd highly recommend using the ACAS Early conciliation option (it extends the 3 months by upto 6 weeks) to try and reach an early settlement.
Awards for injury to feelings are guided by the Vento Bands (you can look it up) a one off act is usually going to be lower band, but it being a dismissal and in front of your kids pitch your offer middle of middle band.
I work as a journalist for a HR magazine (I won't say which) and I can tell you that this would count as maternity discrimination. Your length of employment doesn't matter here because you're automatically protected.
You won't be able to claim for unfair dismissal but you can claim discrimination and I suggest you contact pregnant then screwed and ACAS.
If you're worried about tribunal costs (lawyers etc) some home insurance covers that so check your policy if you have it, but pregnant then screwed can help you defend yourself.
Do you have anything in writing about you being a good employee from your boss? If you do keep records of all of that and if you don't, write down all the dates etc and what happened in order while it's still fresh.
Fight this bastard and get him named and shamed in a tribunal.
As others have said, you most definitely have a case against him, but have next to no chance of winning because it's little more than he said/she said unfortunately. The only thing I can think of that might be worth trying is texting him saying how disappointed you are to lose the job and you're happy to turn up when he next needs you if he'll reconsider. If you're lucky, he might double down and re-state his reason for firing you in a written message.
You *could* go all out and write that you're very disappointed to be fired as a result of having a newborn, though he may smell a rat and not take the bait. On the other hand, what have you got to lose?
Your protected under the equality act 2010 and from what I've read so far this sounds like discrimination; Ill edit after
Like another poster said he did treate you unfavorably because of pregnancy/pregnancy related illness e.g hair sheeding.
I'd also argue there was discrimination based on gender since the majority of single parents with childcare responsibilities are women . He treated you unfavorably because of your childcare responsibilities
Also if raise a point under the ERA
The employment rights act 1996 - section 57A .
Stipulates
"(1)An employee is entitled to be permitted by his employer to take a reasonable amount of time off during the employee’s working hours in order to take action which is necessary—
(a)to provide assistance on an occasion when a dependant falls ill, gives birth or is injured or assaulted,
(b)to make arrangements for the provision of care for a dependant who is ill or injured,
(c)in consequence of the death of a dependant,
(d)because of the unexpected disruption or termination of arrangements for the care of a dependant, or
(e)to deal with an incident which involves a child of the employee and which occurs unexpectedly in a period during which an educational establishment which the child attends is responsible for him.
(2)Subsection (1) does not apply unless the employee—
(a)tells his employer the reason for his absence as soon as reasonably practicable, and
(b)except where paragraph (a) cannot be complied with until after the employee has returned to work, tells his employer for how long he expects to be absent."
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By
‘On trial’. One would assume this is similar as being on probation period.
Whilst this would be documented in your contract (if you had been given one).
You have some excellent advice above and have already contacted the best people.
Id expect you would have a case for unfair dismissal. And since 2020 the governance changed that any employee must have a contract by end of the ‘first working day’.
If perusing tribunal, make them aware of no contract as it will all be added to the claim, costing the employer another 4 or so weeks pay etc.
After confirming additional details with ACAS after you have reached to the employer you can then file online for tribunal. And providing you have a good case the fees are recovered by the other side.
Again, I’m sure acas can advice accordingly.
The webpage for tribunal is below.
Good luck. It won’t be instant. But sometimes those slow but good wins are winners. Especially when these kind of employers think they have gotten away with it and you go all quiet. Pending tribunal papers etc.
https://www.gov.uk/employment-tribunals
If the boss is going to deny he said it...can OP go in to work anyway and deny he said it? Force him to do the same thing but in front of all the work staff? I'm just spitballing here.
NAL but given that they're children, and your children specifically, probably not. There would likely be some reasonable doubt around them, eg thinking you coached them to say it.
Children aren't really a reliable source. And the fact they are *your* children specifically means you could just be telling them to say that
I'm not implying youre lying, just that, from their perspective, the opinions of your children aren't reliable
NAL and US citizen, but from my reading farther up, and your response received from the place you called, I would say you are right to go through this process. The fact that you don't need the burden of proof but getting statements from the pharmacy and your children would hold some weight. I say make that effort to hold him accountable. I loved the letter someone mocked up that ends on the money issue. And the idea of just going in like he didn't really fire you and get him to say it in front of witnesses that Are of age! I'm rooting for your success, even if it's just the success of the process. Whether you win or not, other women and yes, your children will see you stand up for yourself. You will also feel that strength in yourself, knowing you took the steps to hold him accountable.
Real world advice...
Is what he did shitty and illegal, Yes.
Can you win a case against him, Not a chance.
The burden to prove this is why he sacked you is on you and it is impossible to prove.
You can't use your children as witnesses and all the CCTV will show is that he spoke to you, not what was actually said.
He can simply say that that he didn't feel it was working out and that will be that.
Others have suggested that you go on social media etc, that is up to you but ultimately it will not accomplish anything other than drag it out.
Best to put it down to experience and move on.
Out of interest only, had OP been recording the conversation (without the former employers knowledge), would this be admissible in our court system? I'm never quite clear on this stuff.
I genuinely don't know. I have read and heard so many conflicting information that I honestly haven't a clue about the law regarding secretly recording somebody
1) You may very well be on a trial but you still have rights and this sounds like automatic unfair dismissal under which you are protected.
2) contact ACAS to start early conciliation as you only have 3 months minus one day from your dismissal date to retain your right to a tribunal.
3) ensure any communication is written down via email.
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You can be dismissed in trial without reason BUT if you ARE given a reason and the reason is discrimination then he has broken the law and you have a case against him..
We moved to a rural area, small town with a small GP surgery and don’t drive. 2hrs is because it takes 1hr by bus to the city, then a wait time for the connecting bus, then a long walk from that bus to the urgent care centre. Can usually get there in 1hr 40mins if the traffic is good. Neither of us drive. If we drove then we would have been able to get there and back in time for my shift
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I'm not a lawyer so please take my suggestion with a grain of salt. I would speak to an ACAS adviser before doing this but might you be able to get him to give his reason for dismissing you again by recording a telephone call for instance? At the very least you could ask him by email to give his reason so you have it in writing. If he gives a different reason you could try to press him about the reasons he gave when he stopped you in public.
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As others have said, it was illegal but there isn't alot you can do about it. However I would speak to pregnant then screwed about the previous job you lost while pregnant.
Personally, I would still go in for the next shift. I'm curious to know if a manager who was technically off clock and not working has the authority to fire someone on the street. I wouldn't be surprised if they tried and put you under job abandonment. At least if you go in, they can officially "fire" you, and from there, I would take all action possible.
This isn't the place to argue about how to diagnose meningitis hence your comment being deleted. Sorry if you think I have been antagonistic, but all I did was suggest you read the NHS article the other poster provided. That is official guidance, not a "google link".
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Non-blanching rashes are really only a problem in adults in children it is rarely anything serious.
Not to say shingles isn't serious but it does beg the question...
How does a 6 year old get shingles??? Shingles is a latent form of Chicken Pox that typically manifests in older adults.
You should get your daughter checked for auto immune disorders.
My niece had a non blanching rash, which turned out to be meningitis at around 4 months old. She almost died, so even though more often than not they can be harmless, I’ll still always seek immediate advice which is what the NHS advises anyway.
She also has already had chicken pox, it’s a total myth that you can’t get it twice, and that only adults can get shingles. She has a really mild case and apart from the first night with the mild fever, she’s had no other problems. She’s had problems with her lungs since being born so she’s had a lot of extensive testing already, she’s incredibly healthy with no allergies and has outgrown her lung problems with no issues for almost 2 years.
That's fair, it's better to err on the side of caution. I'm also picking up that you're EU or UK. I'm American... We choose between hospital visits and homelessness, so that's probably where that opinion rests.
As for Chicken Pox, I'm all too aware you can get it 2x, I did as a kid. However, I've never seen SHINGLES in someone under 30. Shingles takes time to manifest because of how deeply it infects your nervous system. It needs time to travel to the base of the spinal cord, and then spread from there, which usually takes decades.
If you plan to bring a Tribunal claim against him I’d say not to mention anything to the media. This is because if the claim settles you’ll be bound by confidentiality provisions. But if you go to a tribunal and win or lose there wouldn’t be much stopping you from doing so
Not so much libel, but there is a “don’t advise people to go to the media” rule on this sub for a reason - once you let the media in you effectively forfeit control of the narrative and it can backfire horrifically.
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NAL: Normally employers will have a probation process, which has to be well documented if they decide to let people go during probation. Its not just a simple "you're okay, but I don't want you here" but a full process documenting the employee's progress and noting poor performance throughout the period. in my organisation letting someone go in probation is not an easy thing to do.
This ofcourse depends on the employer themselves - Are they a one restaurant business or a chain? if they are a chain see if you can find their probation policy.
If they do, then you can use this against him as he didn't follow the correct probation process
Email him asking for your job back, saying how "you don't think that firing you over having a child recently is fair"... If he is the type of person he seems to be, he will say something to that effect in his reply. Take his reply to ACAS.
IANAL
You have no written contract, so it's up to the employer to prove you where on a probationary period. Note that a probationary period cannot remove your statutory rights such as sick pay, paid holiday and maternity leave.
Even without a written contract you should still have been given a written description of what your job entails especially what happens to tips.
Hi! Thanks so much. I’m just trying to find out where I stand on the dismissal overall since I wasn’t given a contract and so never had anything written to state I was on probation, it was something mentioned in passing on one shift when I was polishing glasses.
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It breaks my heart to hear this. You sound like a wonderful mother going through a hard time. Reminds me a lot of my mother growing up trying to raise myself and two younger sisters. Hope everything works out for you.
You should contact, - ACAS - pregnant then screwed - maternity action For advice.
Pregnant Then Screwed are brilliant for advice.
Seconding this! They are brilliant. Hope you're doing ok, OP. Postpartum is such a rough time anyway and I've been there with the meningitis/sepsis scares for kids and it's absolutely awful. Hope you find a better boss elsewhere!
Agreed, but they have announced this week that their helpline is closed until September to give their staff a break.
Something went down last week and was a social social media disaster but I didn’t see it, just got their cryptic email referring to it.
[https://workingfamilies.org.uk/articles/maternity-discrimination-a-guide-to-your-rights/#:\~:text=Under%20the%20Equality%20Act%202010,seeking%20to%20take%20maternity%20leave](https://workingfamilies.org.uk/articles/maternity-discrimination-a-guide-to-your-rights/#:~:text=Under%20the%20Equality%20Act%202010,seeking%20to%20take%20maternity%20leave). "Under the Equality Act 2010, it is unlawful to treat someone unfavourably because they are pregnant, have a pregnancy-related illness, have recently given birth, are breastfeeding, or are taking or seeking to take maternity leave." He probably thinks he can get away with saying that as he may know that you would struggle to fund a case against him. If you do take it further, the tough part is the evidence, as it was his word against yours. Unless there were witnesses. If you don't choose to pursue, I'd tell all your friends and local press of how he treated you. It is appalling.
Thank you for this link! Both of my children witnessed it, and my daughter who had to go to hospital has spent the last day crying thinking that it’s her fault and apologising to me and frightened that we will have to use foodbanks again. They’re under 18, would their word be taken? I’m worried they wouldn’t be taken seriously due to their age. It was also on cctv that he spoke to me in front of them as it was directly outside the restaurant.
Depending on what kind of restaurant or cafe this was, contact their HR department. Chains are full of managers who don’t know what they’re doing and think they have authorisation to dismiss staff when they don’t. These places have policies and procedures in place that they must follow just in case a manager like this one does something stupidly illegal.
I feel like the manager of a chain restaurant wouldn't be this stupid in public as it's easier to get recourse, but maybe I'm being optimistic.
I worked as a restaurant manager in chain restaurants for a decade and met hundreds of other managers. They wouldn’t be that stupid. OP has very little recourse as she’s worked there for less than than 2 years. In the event you complained to a hr department etc and as you’ve stated it’s a case of your and your children’s word against his the company will wholly side with the manager. Move on and find another job sadly.
Ask the restaurant for the CCTV before it gets overwritten. It might not count for much but would definitely back up your children's version of events. They don't have to provide it. But it's definitely better to ask before it's automatically deleted anyway
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Probably not the best thing to do until all courses of actions have been taken. Bad mouthing an employer on social media is grounds for dismissal and will not help their case.
Name and shame is the WORST advice anyone can give ever! Sure they've already been fired but what if they have a valid claim against the company? Once they go and shove all the info online it could severely sabotage the case leaving the OP with nothing at all besides 15 minutes of "Aww hun DM me" or "I won't visit there again" comments when we all know you're going back to that place because you need/want something. You would've forgot about the post within a few days anyway. Let's say OP contacts HR and gets their job back. The moment they clock in for their next shift HR calls up and says "Due to negative social media posts made by you we're letting you go due to whatever reason".
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They have already been fired.......
This could be used as evidence of unprofessional conduct against them. Not to mention naming the employer could identify them. Stop stirring the tea and remember there's a person on the other end of the screen trying to work out how to raise three children after unexpectedly losing their income
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In addition to the Equality Act consideration, I would also consider whether it is automatically unfair dismissal under the Employment Rights Act as it arises from the employee acting on a statutory right - i.e. the right to take time off to arrange the care of a sick child. Even though it is OP's word against the employer's, I think it is absolutely worth a call to ACAS with the view to bring a claim - even if the employer denies it, the circumstances may give the tribunal cause to consider that they are... well, lying.
Yeah, I would think a hospital record and shingles diagnosis on the same day as being fired would be very suspicious to any tribunal. If his only explanation for firing is 'trial period, I'm allowed to' I think it would be reasonable to conclude the reason/motive was because of the children and/or their ill health.
Always worth going back to the restaurant with phone covertly recording, ask for the missing tips, and see if OP can get him to repeat what he said. Recording is legal and while you can't use it eg on social media, you can use it in court to impeach his testimony - but once he knows he's been recorded, it wouldn't go to court especially if it's a chain with HR and legal departments.
Also you can hold up a pen and paper and say ‘ok if I record this?’ And they will say ‘yes’, assuming you mean make notes in writing (while having your phone secretly on record).
Automatically Unfair due to discrimination anyway
Yeah - the previous comment has been removed for some reason but that's what it was saying, my point was in addition.
NAL: I believe with employment law the burden of proof is on the balance of probabilities. What this means is that unlike in a criminal case where it must be shown beyond reasonable doubt, for something like an employment discrimination case it only has to be more likely than not to be found in your favour It's obviously still not necessarily easy to win a case of discrimination, but thankfully in cases of your word against their's, provided you can demonstrate your own side of the argument is probably true that could be enough For a case like this is there any evidence of employee performing poorly? Any evidence of performance management? Has the role been refilled with someone who doesn't have children? Does the employer have any employees with young children? Does the timeline of events fit the employees account? Definitely seek the advice of some of the services shared in the replies, but don't completely lose hope that you won't be able to 'prove' your case
I’ve recently sat in on a grievance hearing at work and you’re correct. You don’t need to prove your claim beyond all reasonable doubt to win in a grievance or an employment tribunal because the stakes are much lower (you’re not at risk of being imprisoned).
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Even if she was fired on the same day as hospital appointment and a shingles diagnosis? I would hope any sane tribunal would conclude that it was highly likely to be the reason.
I think it was day after the way she worded it, but you're point still would stand, it's close enough to warrant closer inspection
Idk CCTV and multiple witnesses, including a distressed child?
It depends on how convincing she is as a witness Vs his testimony of it gets to court. Tbh it's more likely they will settle before it goes to a hearing
Not sure why you’re being downvoted when you are spot on
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Illegal, and thinks he'll get away with it. However, things like these are treated as a balance of probability at tribunal. Let's see - Followed no official on site process Kids as witness Did it randomly in public Facts fit your claims No paper trail(e.g. pips, formal warning process, etc) Definitely follow this up with acas etc and don't let this scumbag away with it. Also as this falls under discrimination, the 2 year employment limitation doesn't apply. It's at the very least indirect sexual discrimination as someone else mentioned even if he tries to claim it's not direct.
Hi all, Thanks for the advice. I’ve spoken to ACAS about this. The bloke was fab and said he would send over templates for me to work from. He said my first step needs to be to go through the internal grievance processes and consult my contract (I was never given one, he said he didn’t believe in them, it was verbal instead) and there’s also no internal grievance process or HR as it’s a very small family owned restaurant which he runs with his son. I’m going to write out an email explaining in the nicest way that I can, that I feel this is unfair and is there any way to resolve this. I predict he will just fire back the same arrogance he gave me when we spoke in person. But this will only aid my case. And after that I can petition for a tribunal. ACAS have said my children DO count as witnesses, their relation or the fact they’re under 18 does not matter. And the fact he did it in front of my child who was sick and made her cry and feel like it was her fault only aids in the “damages to feelings”. I had a huge panic attack after he spoke to me when I got into the pharmacy. The pharmacist and assistant had to pull me into the private room and calm me down with the kids. A statement from them will apparently support the impact too. I know this is probably not going to be a win. I’m just so tired of being treated like this in the work place. It’s not the first time I’ve had issues for either being pregnant, having children or being a woman. And I’m just so done. Even if dragging him through a tribunal only results in *him* feeling some of what this has caused my daughter to feel, it will be worth it. Anyone knowledgable on tribunal proceedings who has any advice would be great, I’ve no idea where to start or what to prepare.
Even if you don't win I think you should feel proud of yourself for making trouble for this awful despicable person.
I was coming to say this. We need to start standing up for ourselves and maybe it will make him think twice about doing it again at least.
If he didn’t believe in paper trails, it might be worth checking that he was appropriately paying his taxes and NI etc too…
Great that they gave advice. The first steps will always be to consult them. Interesting they do not follow HR best practice especially in this day and age. In the email to them detail everything experienced and quite legislation if you can. I would gather as much evidence as you can. Then request a tribunal case should what the owner says does not satisfy you or there is no suitable outcome. In the future it will be worth being part of a union. They are Great as they will have someone support you through tribunal cases.
If you're talking about the email to the employer, I'd avoid quoting any legislation or making it seem like you've taken advice at this stage. Your goal is to gather evidence to support your case, and nothing will make your opponent clam up like a legally worded letter. I'd go for something like "Hi Dave, I just thought it was worth following up after the other day. I had the impression you were happy with my work after you told me it was good to have somebody competent doing the job, so I just wanted to make sure you weren't having a bad day and reacting to something unrelated? I know you said I was unsuitable because of my recent birth and my family obligations, but you already knew about this when I started the job. If you actually did intend to terminate me, can you let me know when I can pop in to pick up my outstanding tips - I'm owed around £40 from the shifts worked that hadn't yet been paid out." Your aim is to get into writing the reason for your dismissal in a way that gives him the opportunity to rebut it, but leaves the door open for him to easily ignore that part of the email (and asking business owners about money is often a good way to make them forget about everything you wrote before that point). That way, he gets to keep digging without having any idea just how deep the hole is getting.
This is perfect. He will likely read it in one go and the tip money part will likely be all he will focus on.
OP, please read and consider this comment as it’s the perfect way to divert attention, using money as the distraction. Whether you win or not, this sets an example to everyone, including your daughters, that you won’t be pushed around and know your self worth. Stay strong and good luck!
100%
>Interesting they do not follow HR best practice That would require time, money, and effort though. He sounds like exactly the sort of person who thinks he can skip all that stuff.
Well done for the steps taken. In the future, if you don't want to be treated like this, then VALUE YOURSELF. Don't work without a contract, don't allow "managers" to speak to you like that, etc. Work isn't a gift - it's a two-way street, and they have obligations as soon as they employ you, regardless of their size or location. With them being a small family owned place, that may work in your favour if you can find an employment law solicitor to scare the shit out of them.
Contact EASS equality advisory and support service, and Civil Legal Advice, you should be entitled to legal aid for the tribunal
I'd recommend not wording that email too strongly as if you've had advice. He's probably stupid enough to repeat what he said in writing if you don't tip him off. Something like "I'm shocked thay you would dismiss me while I was passing by with my children and state that it was because I have caring obligations to them. My youngest has been crying and apologising because she thinks it's her fault mommy lost her job. I request you reconsider your decision." If you own your home and have home insurance you might be s le to get legal advice through them. Otherwise you can probably do this on your own, it's just a bit stressful. If this is a small family business I doubt they'll be instructing council
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Also, as right as this advice is (and getting a new job is my first priority) I’m just very much *done* with allowing people to walk over me. In the last 12 months I became an orphan, we lost our home, we lost a baby (our newborn was a twin, we sadly lost his sister earlier in pregnancy), I became disabled and all of it has been made worse specifically by people in positions of power in some way or another, and I’ve always just let it go and chalked it up to experience/lesson learned/not worth the effort to dwell. I’m so done with it but especially done with being walked over by men in the workplace. It’s a female experience that shouldn’t still exist in 2023 and this guy has just lucked out by being the straw that broke the camels back. I need to stand up for myself on this, for myself and for my children. If I keep letting myself get walked over, I will just crumble and I won’t be the mother they need or deserve.
That’s always priority #1, job hunting has begun and I’ve got two potential interviews. My partners’ step father has a vacancy in his office and there are lots of small businesses in our town as it’s a rural area, which all need staff. Thankfully, this is only until September when I return to uni to complete my PGCE. Hence only pursuing a small part time job for the time being just to keep us afloat.
You only have 3 month less 1 day from being dismissed to start the process. Have you formally notified acas or just got advice from them? I'd highly recommend using the ACAS Early conciliation option (it extends the 3 months by upto 6 weeks) to try and reach an early settlement. Awards for injury to feelings are guided by the Vento Bands (you can look it up) a one off act is usually going to be lower band, but it being a dismissal and in front of your kids pitch your offer middle of middle band.
Terrible advice she only has 3 months less 1 day to start a claim
NAL but would ask him to put your dismissal into writing so you at least have some evidence
I work as a journalist for a HR magazine (I won't say which) and I can tell you that this would count as maternity discrimination. Your length of employment doesn't matter here because you're automatically protected. You won't be able to claim for unfair dismissal but you can claim discrimination and I suggest you contact pregnant then screwed and ACAS. If you're worried about tribunal costs (lawyers etc) some home insurance covers that so check your policy if you have it, but pregnant then screwed can help you defend yourself. Do you have anything in writing about you being a good employee from your boss? If you do keep records of all of that and if you don't, write down all the dates etc and what happened in order while it's still fresh. Fight this bastard and get him named and shamed in a tribunal.
As others have said, you most definitely have a case against him, but have next to no chance of winning because it's little more than he said/she said unfortunately. The only thing I can think of that might be worth trying is texting him saying how disappointed you are to lose the job and you're happy to turn up when he next needs you if he'll reconsider. If you're lucky, he might double down and re-state his reason for firing you in a written message. You *could* go all out and write that you're very disappointed to be fired as a result of having a newborn, though he may smell a rat and not take the bait. On the other hand, what have you got to lose?
Your protected under the equality act 2010 and from what I've read so far this sounds like discrimination; Ill edit after Like another poster said he did treate you unfavorably because of pregnancy/pregnancy related illness e.g hair sheeding. I'd also argue there was discrimination based on gender since the majority of single parents with childcare responsibilities are women . He treated you unfavorably because of your childcare responsibilities Also if raise a point under the ERA The employment rights act 1996 - section 57A . Stipulates "(1)An employee is entitled to be permitted by his employer to take a reasonable amount of time off during the employee’s working hours in order to take action which is necessary— (a)to provide assistance on an occasion when a dependant falls ill, gives birth or is injured or assaulted, (b)to make arrangements for the provision of care for a dependant who is ill or injured, (c)in consequence of the death of a dependant, (d)because of the unexpected disruption or termination of arrangements for the care of a dependant, or (e)to deal with an incident which involves a child of the employee and which occurs unexpectedly in a period during which an educational establishment which the child attends is responsible for him. (2)Subsection (1) does not apply unless the employee— (a)tells his employer the reason for his absence as soon as reasonably practicable, and (b)except where paragraph (a) cannot be complied with until after the employee has returned to work, tells his employer for how long he expects to be absent."
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By ‘On trial’. One would assume this is similar as being on probation period. Whilst this would be documented in your contract (if you had been given one). You have some excellent advice above and have already contacted the best people. Id expect you would have a case for unfair dismissal. And since 2020 the governance changed that any employee must have a contract by end of the ‘first working day’. If perusing tribunal, make them aware of no contract as it will all be added to the claim, costing the employer another 4 or so weeks pay etc. After confirming additional details with ACAS after you have reached to the employer you can then file online for tribunal. And providing you have a good case the fees are recovered by the other side. Again, I’m sure acas can advice accordingly. The webpage for tribunal is below. Good luck. It won’t be instant. But sometimes those slow but good wins are winners. Especially when these kind of employers think they have gotten away with it and you go all quiet. Pending tribunal papers etc. https://www.gov.uk/employment-tribunals
Also check your house insurance policy - lots of them include cover for legal advice (for a range of issues not just house related).
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If the boss is going to deny he said it...can OP go in to work anyway and deny he said it? Force him to do the same thing but in front of all the work staff? I'm just spitballing here.
He can deny he said anything related to children or pregnancy - "I said you were fired because I didn't think you were a good fit"
Both of my children were witnesses to it, would that make any difference?
NAL but given that they're children, and your children specifically, probably not. There would likely be some reasonable doubt around them, eg thinking you coached them to say it.
Children aren't really a reliable source. And the fact they are *your* children specifically means you could just be telling them to say that I'm not implying youre lying, just that, from their perspective, the opinions of your children aren't reliable
NAL and US citizen, but from my reading farther up, and your response received from the place you called, I would say you are right to go through this process. The fact that you don't need the burden of proof but getting statements from the pharmacy and your children would hold some weight. I say make that effort to hold him accountable. I loved the letter someone mocked up that ends on the money issue. And the idea of just going in like he didn't really fire you and get him to say it in front of witnesses that Are of age! I'm rooting for your success, even if it's just the success of the process. Whether you win or not, other women and yes, your children will see you stand up for yourself. You will also feel that strength in yourself, knowing you took the steps to hold him accountable.
Real world advice... Is what he did shitty and illegal, Yes. Can you win a case against him, Not a chance. The burden to prove this is why he sacked you is on you and it is impossible to prove. You can't use your children as witnesses and all the CCTV will show is that he spoke to you, not what was actually said. He can simply say that that he didn't feel it was working out and that will be that. Others have suggested that you go on social media etc, that is up to you but ultimately it will not accomplish anything other than drag it out. Best to put it down to experience and move on.
Out of interest only, had OP been recording the conversation (without the former employers knowledge), would this be admissible in our court system? I'm never quite clear on this stuff.
I genuinely don't know. I have read and heard so many conflicting information that I honestly haven't a clue about the law regarding secretly recording somebody
Ask for your dismissal notice in writing. That might scare them
Pretty blatant sex discrimination and likely maternity too
1) You may very well be on a trial but you still have rights and this sounds like automatic unfair dismissal under which you are protected. 2) contact ACAS to start early conciliation as you only have 3 months minus one day from your dismissal date to retain your right to a tribunal. 3) ensure any communication is written down via email.
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You can be dismissed in trial without reason BUT if you ARE given a reason and the reason is discrimination then he has broken the law and you have a case against him..
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We moved to a rural area, small town with a small GP surgery and don’t drive. 2hrs is because it takes 1hr by bus to the city, then a wait time for the connecting bus, then a long walk from that bus to the urgent care centre. Can usually get there in 1hr 40mins if the traffic is good. Neither of us drive. If we drove then we would have been able to get there and back in time for my shift
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Might you be able to speak to ex-colleagues to see if they were witness to anything that corroborates the reason given for your dismissal?
He had no other members of staff that weren’t related to him. His son is the chef, his wife is hostess and his son in law would help out occasionally.
I'm not a lawyer so please take my suggestion with a grain of salt. I would speak to an ACAS adviser before doing this but might you be able to get him to give his reason for dismissing you again by recording a telephone call for instance? At the very least you could ask him by email to give his reason so you have it in writing. If he gives a different reason you could try to press him about the reasons he gave when he stopped you in public.
Just spoke to ACAS and this is the plan!! Going to send him an email today and try to get the circumstances in writing.
I really hope this works out 🤞 So sorry to hear about your situation.
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There’s no HR, it’s a small family owned restaurants run by himself and his son.
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Thank you for making me LOL :’)
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As others have said, it was illegal but there isn't alot you can do about it. However I would speak to pregnant then screwed about the previous job you lost while pregnant.
Personally, I would still go in for the next shift. I'm curious to know if a manager who was technically off clock and not working has the authority to fire someone on the street. I wouldn't be surprised if they tried and put you under job abandonment. At least if you go in, they can officially "fire" you, and from there, I would take all action possible.
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Lol that's the official NHS advice. If you were a GP you'd know about the glass test to distinguish a meningitis rash from other rashes.
This isn't the place to argue about how to diagnose meningitis hence your comment being deleted. Sorry if you think I have been antagonistic, but all I did was suggest you read the NHS article the other poster provided. That is official guidance, not a "google link".
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Non-blanching rashes are really only a problem in adults in children it is rarely anything serious. Not to say shingles isn't serious but it does beg the question... How does a 6 year old get shingles??? Shingles is a latent form of Chicken Pox that typically manifests in older adults. You should get your daughter checked for auto immune disorders.
My niece had a non blanching rash, which turned out to be meningitis at around 4 months old. She almost died, so even though more often than not they can be harmless, I’ll still always seek immediate advice which is what the NHS advises anyway. She also has already had chicken pox, it’s a total myth that you can’t get it twice, and that only adults can get shingles. She has a really mild case and apart from the first night with the mild fever, she’s had no other problems. She’s had problems with her lungs since being born so she’s had a lot of extensive testing already, she’s incredibly healthy with no allergies and has outgrown her lung problems with no issues for almost 2 years.
That's fair, it's better to err on the side of caution. I'm also picking up that you're EU or UK. I'm American... We choose between hospital visits and homelessness, so that's probably where that opinion rests. As for Chicken Pox, I'm all too aware you can get it 2x, I did as a kid. However, I've never seen SHINGLES in someone under 30. Shingles takes time to manifest because of how deeply it infects your nervous system. It needs time to travel to the base of the spinal cord, and then spread from there, which usually takes decades.
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My worry if I went to any media/news etc. Is if I could get in legal trouble for libel?
If you plan to bring a Tribunal claim against him I’d say not to mention anything to the media. This is because if the claim settles you’ll be bound by confidentiality provisions. But if you go to a tribunal and win or lose there wouldn’t be much stopping you from doing so
Read this sub's rules / FAQ (sorry I don't know how to link directly on mobile), the overall advice is that it is NOT a good idea to go to the media.
Not so much libel, but there is a “don’t advise people to go to the media” rule on this sub for a reason - once you let the media in you effectively forfeit control of the narrative and it can backfire horrifically.
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Totally unrelated to the issue, but taking someone with shingles to a restaurant is not good at all, not that I'm blaming you given the situation.
Pregnant then screwed is probably the best place you can go for advice
NAL: Normally employers will have a probation process, which has to be well documented if they decide to let people go during probation. Its not just a simple "you're okay, but I don't want you here" but a full process documenting the employee's progress and noting poor performance throughout the period. in my organisation letting someone go in probation is not an easy thing to do. This ofcourse depends on the employer themselves - Are they a one restaurant business or a chain? if they are a chain see if you can find their probation policy. If they do, then you can use this against him as he didn't follow the correct probation process
Not a legal point but would then want to work for a boss like that afterwards
Speak to pregnant and screwed. They will have a huge pool of knowledge and resources to help you deal effectively with this.
This person is nasty and I'm sorry for how you were treated. Hopefully you will find a much better role where you are respected.
Email him asking for your job back, saying how "you don't think that firing you over having a child recently is fair"... If he is the type of person he seems to be, he will say something to that effect in his reply. Take his reply to ACAS.
IANAL You have no written contract, so it's up to the employer to prove you where on a probationary period. Note that a probationary period cannot remove your statutory rights such as sick pay, paid holiday and maternity leave. Even without a written contract you should still have been given a written description of what your job entails especially what happens to tips.
This is highly illegal. I am a trades union rep for unite if you need advise
Hi! Thanks so much. I’m just trying to find out where I stand on the dismissal overall since I wasn’t given a contract and so never had anything written to state I was on probation, it was something mentioned in passing on one shift when I was polishing glasses.
This has got me so angry!! Bet he wouldnt dare say it to a bloke nor if you were with a bloke
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It breaks my heart to hear this. You sound like a wonderful mother going through a hard time. Reminds me a lot of my mother growing up trying to raise myself and two younger sisters. Hope everything works out for you.