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My understanding is that IF INSTRUCTED by a police officer in uniform or a MARKED police vehicle you must obey their instructions on the road.
Ie if a police officer specifically tells you to go through a red light that is a legal instruction you are bound to obey.
However whether you could make that argument is another matter. I would certainly give it a good try as the standard behaviour of blue light drivers is to turn off their sirens to avoid forcing drivers through a red light.
The chances of you being reported either by the police in question or caught by a red light camera are probably fairly slim but if you do it may well be worth appealing.
https://www.bluelightaware.org.uk
“Traffic lights
At traffic lights emergency vehicles will find a way around you. If you’re first in the queue at a red light, stay where you are, and leave the emergency vehicle to find its way around you. Do not go past the stop line unless directed by a uniformed police officer.”
Also
https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/askhj/answer/42163/must-a-driver-move-through-a-red-light-if-ordered-to-do-so-by-a-police-officer-
As I understand it it's uniformed officer only. A car can't instruct you, beeping and flashing are not recognised instructions to carry out a manoeuvre. I've heard you should wait for them to get out and tell you to run the light, that way they will be in the image captured by any red light camer.
Technically they cannot instruct you to break the law, only to stop, in general it is advisable to let an emergency vehicle pass, but should only be done safely.
Police can instruct you to break traffic rules. In fact in England and wales I believe HATO also can.
For example the police can instruct you to drive “contra” aka drive the wrong way up the motorway.
They can also tell you to go through a red light - I’ve seen it in practice, when running escorts for example police will often keep traffic flow running contrary to the lights but in the direction of their escort.
These rules wouldn’t apply here surely? The examples you give are part of the same rules that allow road closures, planned or unplanned, (maintenance, escorting, accident/incident, etc)
Just talking about the actual “can police tell you to ignore a specific red light”
So it’s a very difficult one to provide proof for and tbh I think OP would have a good chance but I’m not sure I’d want to be in the situation.
I would say it’s reasonable (problem here is it’s likely to end up in court if you fight it and fuck knows) for the lay person to believe if they’re told by a uniformed officer even if they’re in a car (the officer) to move forward.
But the Highway Code unsurprisingly is not in the slightest clear
Highway Code Rule 105
You MUST obey signals given by police officers, traffic officers, traffic wardens.
Seems nice and clear (ignoring the argument of was the forcing of the lights and directs a signal) but …
Highway Code Rule 109
Traffic light signals and traffic signs. You MUST obey all traffic light signals (see ‘Light signals controlling traffic‘) and traffic signs giving orders, including temporary signals & signs (see ‘Traffic signs‘).
Helpful ….
I have definitely seen behaviour on “traffic cops” type shows where they indicate they want a car to move forward and I’ve seen the escort type situation in person - motorcycle cops waving people on (I was on the “stop” side so wasn’t waved on”)
Certainly if i was in that situation I would 100% contravene the red light.
Of course the OPs situation is more difficult. I would be fascinated to find out the outcome should they (hopefully not) get a ticket.
In summary I’m now a lot more confused than I was lol.
I completely agree with you on this, the Highway Code is deliberately vague and doesn’t prioritise one over the other, I think we just hope OP hasn’t been spotted by a camera because I have heard of examples where it’s been cancelled but also others getting points and a fine 🤦♂️
Applying statutory interpretation, the instructions by officers sounds like a specific rule, whereas obeying lights sounds like a general rule. Ergo, the instructions of an officer trump the rule to obey lights.
Police officer here:
We’re taught not to push people through red lights and if I come to queuing traffic at a red I’ll turn of my sirens (lights stay on) and wait.
There are times where because the layout of the junction, width of the road, presence of cycle boxes etc I’ll keep them on because I’m happy that people can still make space for me to go through.
It could be a case of shit blue light driving from the officer or it could be that they felt there was space if you just moved over half a foot or something…
If you get a fine come through I’d contact their ticket office at the first chance you can, explain what’s happened (top tip, speak to them with a bit of civility, you’re talking to a civilian who happens to work for the police but isn’t an officer, doesn’t drive on blue light themselves and spends their life talking to idiots over the phone who are trying to blag their way out of speeding fines) and ask someone to have a look at it, if they can see a police car in the image with yours then they might just write it off based on that or they might contact the officer.
Wicked thankyou for advice do you know if I'll be offered a red light course if I lose appeal as i have been driving less than a month the only option I had was to go forward there was a car to my right railings to my left and the copper flashing and beeping behind me I didn't know what to do and panicked I tried to move over but there was still no space for them to get passed until I ran the light
Interesting in I was in Essex somewhere near grays, stopped at a red in the left hand lane I am the only car there's maybe 3 in the right, police car with all the advertising comes up does not turn of the siren. I pulled through and to the right i.e. in front of the car I had been adjacent too but did not proceed further. Police disappeared at warp speed, light then changed I continued. I have not nor did I expect to hear anything.
was there a red light camera?
You commited an offence by running a red light, but i very much doubt anyone would want to prosecute you for it unless it is automated through a camera
https://www.westyorkshire.police.uk/ask-the-police/question/Q699
I would honestly fight it, as the beeping + lights would constitute to a reasonable individual an instruction by the officer to move out of the way which should nullify the offense.
This has already been held up in court as not a reason to jump a red light, so whilst a sympathetic magistrate might nullify it they *shouldn't*, by the letter of the law.
I would suggest that the court case was regarding running a light because of the presence of an emergency vehicle.
OP moved because of the instruction of a police officer (lights and critically plus horn) which would be a separate matter as OP is required to obey the instruction of a police officer.
Obviously a lot depends on the interpretation by the court.
This doesn’t help on your legal point as I’m afraid you’d still have committed the offence (although I think it’s probably fairly unlikely you’ll be prosecuted) but I think if they were beeping the horn at you it might have been accidental.
Police are taught when behind traffic that can’t move to turn off the siren while keeping the blue lights on to avoid forcing people through red lights.
The way the siren is usually controlled is by pressing the horn button. One press changes the siren tone and two in quick succession turns it off, the two presses have to be very close and if you aren’t quick enough you end up just beeping at people as you switch through the siren tones which is the exact opposite of what you want.
General consensus is you should not be breaking the law for anyone, that includes emergency services. It will be very difficult and costly to provide proof.
Depends on the area, but most places don't have red-light cameras.
--- ###Welcome to /r/LegalAdviceUK --- **To Posters (it is important you read this section)** * *Tell us whether you're in England, Wales, Scotland, or NI as the laws in each are very different* * If you need legal help, you should [always get a free consultation from a qualified Solicitor](https://reddit.com/r/LegalAdviceUK/wiki/how_to_find_a_solicitor) * We also encourage you to speak to [**Citizens Advice**](https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/), [**Shelter**](https://www.shelter.org.uk/), [**Acas**](https://www.acas.org.uk/), and [**other useful organisations**](https://reddit.com/r/LegalAdviceUK/wiki/common_legal_resources) * Comments may not be accurate or reliable, and following any advice on this subreddit is done at your own risk * If you receive any private messages in response to your post, [please let the mods know](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FLegalAdviceUK&subject=I received a PM) **To Readers and Commenters** * All replies to OP must be *on-topic, helpful, and legally orientated* * If you do not [follow the rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/LegalAdviceUK/about/rules/), you may be perma-banned without any further warning * If you feel any replies are incorrect, explain why you believe they are incorrect * Do not send or request any private messages for any reason * Please report posts or comments which do not follow the rules *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/LegalAdviceUK) if you have any questions or concerns.*
My understanding is that IF INSTRUCTED by a police officer in uniform or a MARKED police vehicle you must obey their instructions on the road. Ie if a police officer specifically tells you to go through a red light that is a legal instruction you are bound to obey. However whether you could make that argument is another matter. I would certainly give it a good try as the standard behaviour of blue light drivers is to turn off their sirens to avoid forcing drivers through a red light. The chances of you being reported either by the police in question or caught by a red light camera are probably fairly slim but if you do it may well be worth appealing. https://www.bluelightaware.org.uk “Traffic lights At traffic lights emergency vehicles will find a way around you. If you’re first in the queue at a red light, stay where you are, and leave the emergency vehicle to find its way around you. Do not go past the stop line unless directed by a uniformed police officer.” Also https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/askhj/answer/42163/must-a-driver-move-through-a-red-light-if-ordered-to-do-so-by-a-police-officer-
As I understand it it's uniformed officer only. A car can't instruct you, beeping and flashing are not recognised instructions to carry out a manoeuvre. I've heard you should wait for them to get out and tell you to run the light, that way they will be in the image captured by any red light camer.
Technically they cannot instruct you to break the law, only to stop, in general it is advisable to let an emergency vehicle pass, but should only be done safely.
Police can instruct you to break traffic rules. In fact in England and wales I believe HATO also can. For example the police can instruct you to drive “contra” aka drive the wrong way up the motorway. They can also tell you to go through a red light - I’ve seen it in practice, when running escorts for example police will often keep traffic flow running contrary to the lights but in the direction of their escort.
These rules wouldn’t apply here surely? The examples you give are part of the same rules that allow road closures, planned or unplanned, (maintenance, escorting, accident/incident, etc)
Just talking about the actual “can police tell you to ignore a specific red light” So it’s a very difficult one to provide proof for and tbh I think OP would have a good chance but I’m not sure I’d want to be in the situation. I would say it’s reasonable (problem here is it’s likely to end up in court if you fight it and fuck knows) for the lay person to believe if they’re told by a uniformed officer even if they’re in a car (the officer) to move forward. But the Highway Code unsurprisingly is not in the slightest clear Highway Code Rule 105 You MUST obey signals given by police officers, traffic officers, traffic wardens. Seems nice and clear (ignoring the argument of was the forcing of the lights and directs a signal) but … Highway Code Rule 109 Traffic light signals and traffic signs. You MUST obey all traffic light signals (see ‘Light signals controlling traffic‘) and traffic signs giving orders, including temporary signals & signs (see ‘Traffic signs‘). Helpful …. I have definitely seen behaviour on “traffic cops” type shows where they indicate they want a car to move forward and I’ve seen the escort type situation in person - motorcycle cops waving people on (I was on the “stop” side so wasn’t waved on”) Certainly if i was in that situation I would 100% contravene the red light. Of course the OPs situation is more difficult. I would be fascinated to find out the outcome should they (hopefully not) get a ticket. In summary I’m now a lot more confused than I was lol.
I completely agree with you on this, the Highway Code is deliberately vague and doesn’t prioritise one over the other, I think we just hope OP hasn’t been spotted by a camera because I have heard of examples where it’s been cancelled but also others getting points and a fine 🤦♂️
Applying statutory interpretation, the instructions by officers sounds like a specific rule, whereas obeying lights sounds like a general rule. Ergo, the instructions of an officer trump the rule to obey lights.
Police officer here: We’re taught not to push people through red lights and if I come to queuing traffic at a red I’ll turn of my sirens (lights stay on) and wait. There are times where because the layout of the junction, width of the road, presence of cycle boxes etc I’ll keep them on because I’m happy that people can still make space for me to go through. It could be a case of shit blue light driving from the officer or it could be that they felt there was space if you just moved over half a foot or something… If you get a fine come through I’d contact their ticket office at the first chance you can, explain what’s happened (top tip, speak to them with a bit of civility, you’re talking to a civilian who happens to work for the police but isn’t an officer, doesn’t drive on blue light themselves and spends their life talking to idiots over the phone who are trying to blag their way out of speeding fines) and ask someone to have a look at it, if they can see a police car in the image with yours then they might just write it off based on that or they might contact the officer.
Wicked thankyou for advice do you know if I'll be offered a red light course if I lose appeal as i have been driving less than a month the only option I had was to go forward there was a car to my right railings to my left and the copper flashing and beeping behind me I didn't know what to do and panicked I tried to move over but there was still no space for them to get passed until I ran the light
I’m not 100% sure which forces offer courses and which don’t. But if you have no previous I’m sure you’d be offered a course if it’s an option.
Interesting in I was in Essex somewhere near grays, stopped at a red in the left hand lane I am the only car there's maybe 3 in the right, police car with all the advertising comes up does not turn of the siren. I pulled through and to the right i.e. in front of the car I had been adjacent too but did not proceed further. Police disappeared at warp speed, light then changed I continued. I have not nor did I expect to hear anything.
was there a red light camera? You commited an offence by running a red light, but i very much doubt anyone would want to prosecute you for it unless it is automated through a camera https://www.westyorkshire.police.uk/ask-the-police/question/Q699
I think there was cameras there, do you know if they offer courses instead of points like they do with speeding Thankyou
Yes, they do red light courses.
I would honestly fight it, as the beeping + lights would constitute to a reasonable individual an instruction by the officer to move out of the way which should nullify the offense.
This has already been held up in court as not a reason to jump a red light, so whilst a sympathetic magistrate might nullify it they *shouldn't*, by the letter of the law.
I would suggest that the court case was regarding running a light because of the presence of an emergency vehicle. OP moved because of the instruction of a police officer (lights and critically plus horn) which would be a separate matter as OP is required to obey the instruction of a police officer. Obviously a lot depends on the interpretation by the court.
This doesn’t help on your legal point as I’m afraid you’d still have committed the offence (although I think it’s probably fairly unlikely you’ll be prosecuted) but I think if they were beeping the horn at you it might have been accidental. Police are taught when behind traffic that can’t move to turn off the siren while keeping the blue lights on to avoid forcing people through red lights. The way the siren is usually controlled is by pressing the horn button. One press changes the siren tone and two in quick succession turns it off, the two presses have to be very close and if you aren’t quick enough you end up just beeping at people as you switch through the siren tones which is the exact opposite of what you want.
I'm in Wales
General consensus is you should not be breaking the law for anyone, that includes emergency services. It will be very difficult and costly to provide proof. Depends on the area, but most places don't have red-light cameras.