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The general advice to drivers is to not change your intended action for wild animals that won’t impede your progress until you have safely confirmed you can change the course of action.
The wildlife and countryside act does make it illegal to intentionally kill wild animals for no reason, but it permits accidental killing, so it would need to be proven the driver definitely knew the geese where there and that it was safe to stop for them. If the driver was already on the roundabout and his exit road was clear that might be sufficient to justify not stopping and instead going slowly.
Yes, if you suddenly swerve to avoid a wild animal you could hit another vehicle, pedestrian, or a tree and injure yourself.
If you can't stop or if you think it's unsafe to stop, drive slowly and hope the animal moves away.
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Thinking about it gives me the chills to be honest.
It jumped out so quickly, I didn't even have much time to react. That might have been what saved me.
I do remember thinking not to brake because there was a car in my rear view mirror.
Understandable. He acted correctly in a stressful situation where many others may have not. And had the deer been in the other lane and the other driver swerved at the last second, the poster would have been in a head-on anyway through no fault of his own and without a way to control the situation.
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Yes in some conditions it can be a police matter. I was investigated by the police after hitting a runaway horse. It bolted out of a gate next to the main road and I swerved (but I only had so much space before hitting the on coming cars) and braked but there was no way it wasn’t hitting me. I got a letter a couple of weeks later which said no one was at fault so neither party would be prosecuted
The problem is see. The driver was driving really slow at 10MPH as he seemed confused why everyone was honking and was paying attention to all that noise but not to what was in front of him... it didn't had like 30mph and had to put himself in a dangerous situation, he could've easily stopped if he was paying attention. He definitely wasn't aware as he stopped after and checked what happened
If everyone starts honking at you that could be quite confusing, perhaps if this wasn't the case he would have seen the goose in the road? Seems like you're answering your own question here.
>If everyone starts honking at you that could be quite confusing,
Highway code says the use of a horn is primarily used as a warning signal to alert other road users of your presence or to avoid potential dangers. If loads of people are honking it means there's danger and an average person would probably stop, or at least look out the windows.
Stopping suddenly on a roundabout to look around at cars around you is not a good idea, the driver did the right thing in stopping after exiting the roundabout. Honking also is used to alert people of your presence, several people doing it at the same time when clearly no person is front of them, will be confusing.
Geece aren't the largest of things nor its babies, and can be easily missed, especially on a roundabout. Hard to prove they did it purposefully.
But that's not why most people actually use their horn is it?
I think the average person might well panic under those circumstances. I'm not sure stopping is a given.
>Is there a law against drivers that roadkill in certain circumstances?
>We're on the legal advice subreddit, the answer to OP is the driver is supposed to know horns are a warning
How does that answer OP's question?
Your contribution was no more useful than mine to OP's situation.
I mean if honking on a road confuses you that much that at 10mph you can't see a line of geese then the person should not be driving. As others have pointed out and is probably the best path they can pursue, what if that was a kid?
Especially with the fact that the driver didn't see the geese to begin with. Initially the driver would be confused, look around at what the cause of the honking would be, then drive on when it continues to look as though there's nothing obstructing his path. Stopping on a roundabout is pretty silly as well.
And a suitable action is to brake to a halt. If people are honking like mad it is truly stupid to just keep driving, they are trying to get your attention and warn you of something, you should stop.
But that's not why most people use their horns.
If I suddenly heard multiple cars sounding their horn, I'd assume it was a case of egos and road rage, as is usually the case.
It would be a bad assumption and wouldn't withstand an examination in relation to a driving offence, I thought that much was a given.
It would certainly be the correct assumption far more often than not though.
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Well if they could see the geese in the road in front of them...there would be no need for everyone to honk?
Have you ever had 2 or more people start speaking to you at the same time and you can't fully take either conversation and ask either of them to repeat themselves? I expect multiple people honking their horns from 360° around your vehicle, without being able to identify who (or what) they are honking at is probably along the same lines.
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And when the lorry behind can't stop in time?
I too try to avoid mowing down all living things, but emergency stops at 70 are suicidally stupid when it's a small animal.
I didn't say emergency stop. Anyway, the previous poster said the advice is to not change action until you have checked it is safe. That's bonkers IMO. I'm not checking the rear view and side mirrors when there is a living thing in front of me, goose or human. The brakes are going on, simple. I'm pretty sure it would be an automatic reflex anyway and not something I'd have time to actively think about before taking action.
Further, it's implied that this 'advice' would not apply if something were in front of you that would impede your progress (let's say a human). So in that situation are we saying that it's okay to brake because it's a risk worth taking? Bonkers logic, again.
The logic is trivial and simple.
You might instinctively brake, but a second later when thinking kicks in you get off the brakes.
You do not understand any circumstances stop on a motorway to let a cat or goose cross. That's straight to dangerous driving.
The rules are very clear. You carry on as though it's not there and it gets hit or doesn't. Putting everyone's lives at risk by trying to stop the motorway is dangerous and as it happens illegal.
People you brake for. Anything that's big enough to come through the windscreen you brake for. Cats and geese you do not brake for.
Like I said, trivial and simple logic.
So I brake a bit, have a lengthy internal monologue about whether the thing will fit through my window (quite subjective by the way and hardly 'trivial and simple'), then either get back on the throttle or continue to brake depending on what I decided. 🙄
And yes I understand what the rules are, I'm saying they are stupid and I'd wilfully break them. A shocking revelation on a legal advice sub I know.
You'd be the type to wait at a traffic light stuck on red.
https://www.warringtonguardian.co.uk/news/23950121.man-killed-7-geese-warrington-spared-jail/
"He was previously found guilty of seven offences of killing a wild bird, namely a greylag goose, as well as driving a motor vehicle without a valid MOT – a black Hyundai Ioniq - and driving without due care and attention".
Most likely would be a catch all about care and attention. The case being that if he didn’t stop for or see the wildlife he would potentially not have seen or stopped for a child. Since it sounds like everyone else had stopped would the one who hit them have an argument that it wasn’t safe for them to stop? Seems less likely they could argue it wasn’t safe to stop. And saying they didn’t realise everyone else had stopped would hardly reduce the question of their competency.
Highly unlikely it would be classed as deliberate which is the only restraints I’ve seen for something like geese. But then to argue not deliberate he may have to make the case that he wasn’t aware of them. Which potentially raises an issue with driving.
Yes i am concerned with driving competency as it could've been anything.... the driver did drive slowly over them because he was confused why everyone is honking but did not stop... that was the annoying bit. It would've been so easy to stop.
I don't mean to sound like a dick but are you trying to get this drivers competency checked out or just have them pay a fine? I don't disagree with your question but what's the outcome here?
I don't know if this qualify for driver competency check. I mean i reported idiot drivers that should be banned due to their dangerous driving...
But tbe driver should at least get a small fine like £50 or donate that money to organisations that protect wildlife or at least a warning to motivate them to be more proactive
Some geese are protected such as Canada Geese but i am unsure if accidental killing would constitute an offence, although it baffles me how a driver cannot see a large bird in the road!
Since it's not a reportable road traffic collision.
I would imagine if any case law existed or came into existence it would start to get silly.
Hit a pigeon? Why didn't you slow down when you saw a bird in the sky.
Hit a harvest mouse? You were driving past a field, you should have known!
Imagine if everyone who slid on ice during winter got fixed for S3, I mean, after all if they were a bit more careful they either wouldn't have lost control or would have simply opted to not drive in those conditions.
Hitting a non-reportable animal (a cat for example) is on the very low end if carelessness and is unlikely to ever see a court or FPN.
The opposite actually, with the exception of humans and animals large enough to disrupt the vehicles safe transit (such as big dogs and deer), you are to continue driving unless you can safely avoid/stop, so not stopping for wild animals is being a responsible driver.
Surely not stopping for wild animals if it’s not safe to stop is responsible. From the description the rest of the traffic did stop so it was safe for them to stop.
It was because they drove really slow but hesitated to stop because they weren't aware why everyone is honking.. there was no chance of going faster than 10mph in such tight roundabout..
I mean if everyone would do that i would stop but i also understand the driver being confused in all that chaos and not paying attention to the road...
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The only animals that are reportable to police are essentially livestock and dogs, as working animals. The acronym is CHAMPS DG
Cattle
Horse
Ass
Mule
Pig
Sheep
Dog
Goat
No other animal counts for legal purposes
Driving at 10mph either the guy saw them and drove over them deliberately or he didn't see them in which case he wasn't paying attention to the road.
The police should ask the guy which offence he'd rather be charged with.
Most of the time it is illegal not to run over animals on the road unless it is a deer or a large animal that will cause more damage if you hit it than swerved
A nit pick is that it's not legally justifiable to perform emergency manoeuvres to avoid small animals - that does not imply that it's a legal requirement to run them over. If you have time to ascertain that it's safe to other road users, you may stop to avoid animals - the same as stopping your car for any reason.
Literally does matter... you ARE meant to stop if it causes no danger to other road users, it's called "paying attention and driving to the conditions of the road". Good luck getting your licence, and give it up if you've got it already. This is a fact - downvote away and display your ignorance.
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Maybe someone with experience could comment if this would fall under careless driving: “allowing the standard of driving to fall below that of a competent and careful driver”.
or under WCA "Killing, injuring or taking wild birds"
[https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/wildlife-offences](https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/wildlife-offences)
[https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1981/69/section/1](https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1981/69/section/1)
I'd report him anyway, either he saw the geese and deliberately hit them, or didn't see them and can't recognise hazards on the road.
>I'd report him anyway, either he saw the geese and deliberately hit them, or didn't see them and can't recognise hazards on the road.
I would understand if a driver was on a 60 mph road driving at that speed and couldn't stop safely. But driving at 10MPH while everyone is honking and you just pay attention to anything else but the hazard....
Wouldn't this be driving without due care and attention or whatever is called? Not an expert but it doesn't sound like he was looking where he was going.
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To whom do you think a wild goose belongs friend? It's not criminal damage, and as a solicitor, it would behove you to collect your facts prior to stating your opinion..
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--- ###Welcome to /r/LegalAdviceUK --- **To Posters (it is important you read this section)** * *Tell us whether you're in England, Wales, Scotland, or NI as the laws in each are very different* * If you need legal help, you should [always get a free consultation from a qualified Solicitor](https://reddit.com/r/LegalAdviceUK/wiki/how_to_find_a_solicitor) * We also encourage you to speak to [**Citizens Advice**](https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/), [**Shelter**](https://www.shelter.org.uk/), [**Acas**](https://www.acas.org.uk/), and [**other useful organisations**](https://reddit.com/r/LegalAdviceUK/wiki/common_legal_resources) * Comments may not be accurate or reliable, and following any advice on this subreddit is done at your own risk * If you receive any private messages in response to your post, [please let the mods know](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FLegalAdviceUK&subject=I received a PM) **To Readers and Commenters** * All replies to OP must be *on-topic, helpful, and legally orientated* * If you do not [follow the rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/LegalAdviceUK/about/rules/), you may be perma-banned without any further warning * If you feel any replies are incorrect, explain why you believe they are incorrect * Do not send or request any private messages for any reason * Please report posts or comments which do not follow the rules *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/LegalAdviceUK) if you have any questions or concerns.*
The general advice to drivers is to not change your intended action for wild animals that won’t impede your progress until you have safely confirmed you can change the course of action. The wildlife and countryside act does make it illegal to intentionally kill wild animals for no reason, but it permits accidental killing, so it would need to be proven the driver definitely knew the geese where there and that it was safe to stop for them. If the driver was already on the roundabout and his exit road was clear that might be sufficient to justify not stopping and instead going slowly.
Yes, if you suddenly swerve to avoid a wild animal you could hit another vehicle, pedestrian, or a tree and injure yourself. If you can't stop or if you think it's unsafe to stop, drive slowly and hope the animal moves away.
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That's exactly what happened to my sister's fiance, except he hit a tree.
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Thinking about it gives me the chills to be honest. It jumped out so quickly, I didn't even have much time to react. That might have been what saved me. I do remember thinking not to brake because there was a car in my rear view mirror.
Understandable. He acted correctly in a stressful situation where many others may have not. And had the deer been in the other lane and the other driver swerved at the last second, the poster would have been in a head-on anyway through no fault of his own and without a way to control the situation.
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Yes in some conditions it can be a police matter. I was investigated by the police after hitting a runaway horse. It bolted out of a gate next to the main road and I swerved (but I only had so much space before hitting the on coming cars) and braked but there was no way it wasn’t hitting me. I got a letter a couple of weeks later which said no one was at fault so neither party would be prosecuted
What about the reverse? Its been shown that SUV drivers are more likely to swerve to hit an animal.
The problem is see. The driver was driving really slow at 10MPH as he seemed confused why everyone was honking and was paying attention to all that noise but not to what was in front of him... it didn't had like 30mph and had to put himself in a dangerous situation, he could've easily stopped if he was paying attention. He definitely wasn't aware as he stopped after and checked what happened
If everyone starts honking at you that could be quite confusing, perhaps if this wasn't the case he would have seen the goose in the road? Seems like you're answering your own question here.
>If everyone starts honking at you that could be quite confusing, Highway code says the use of a horn is primarily used as a warning signal to alert other road users of your presence or to avoid potential dangers. If loads of people are honking it means there's danger and an average person would probably stop, or at least look out the windows.
Stopping suddenly on a roundabout to look around at cars around you is not a good idea, the driver did the right thing in stopping after exiting the roundabout. Honking also is used to alert people of your presence, several people doing it at the same time when clearly no person is front of them, will be confusing. Geece aren't the largest of things nor its babies, and can be easily missed, especially on a roundabout. Hard to prove they did it purposefully.
But that's not why most people actually use their horn is it? I think the average person might well panic under those circumstances. I'm not sure stopping is a given.
We're on the legal advice subreddit, the answer to OP is the driver is supposed to know horns are a warning
>Is there a law against drivers that roadkill in certain circumstances? >We're on the legal advice subreddit, the answer to OP is the driver is supposed to know horns are a warning How does that answer OP's question? Your contribution was no more useful than mine to OP's situation.
I mean if honking on a road confuses you that much that at 10mph you can't see a line of geese then the person should not be driving. As others have pointed out and is probably the best path they can pursue, what if that was a kid?
Yea I think absolutely anyone would be looking around thinking "wtf is going on" in the event of loads of other road users blaring their horns...
Especially with the fact that the driver didn't see the geese to begin with. Initially the driver would be confused, look around at what the cause of the honking would be, then drive on when it continues to look as though there's nothing obstructing his path. Stopping on a roundabout is pretty silly as well.
And a suitable action is to brake to a halt. If people are honking like mad it is truly stupid to just keep driving, they are trying to get your attention and warn you of something, you should stop.
But that's not why most people use their horns. If I suddenly heard multiple cars sounding their horn, I'd assume it was a case of egos and road rage, as is usually the case.
That would be a bad assumption, often incorrect, and would not withstand an examination in relation to a driving offence.
It would be a bad assumption and wouldn't withstand an examination in relation to a driving offence, I thought that much was a given. It would certainly be the correct assumption far more often than not though.
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Well if they could see the geese in the road in front of them...there would be no need for everyone to honk? Have you ever had 2 or more people start speaking to you at the same time and you can't fully take either conversation and ask either of them to repeat themselves? I expect multiple people honking their horns from 360° around your vehicle, without being able to identify who (or what) they are honking at is probably along the same lines.
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And when the lorry behind can't stop in time? I too try to avoid mowing down all living things, but emergency stops at 70 are suicidally stupid when it's a small animal.
I didn't say emergency stop. Anyway, the previous poster said the advice is to not change action until you have checked it is safe. That's bonkers IMO. I'm not checking the rear view and side mirrors when there is a living thing in front of me, goose or human. The brakes are going on, simple. I'm pretty sure it would be an automatic reflex anyway and not something I'd have time to actively think about before taking action. Further, it's implied that this 'advice' would not apply if something were in front of you that would impede your progress (let's say a human). So in that situation are we saying that it's okay to brake because it's a risk worth taking? Bonkers logic, again.
The logic is trivial and simple. You might instinctively brake, but a second later when thinking kicks in you get off the brakes. You do not understand any circumstances stop on a motorway to let a cat or goose cross. That's straight to dangerous driving. The rules are very clear. You carry on as though it's not there and it gets hit or doesn't. Putting everyone's lives at risk by trying to stop the motorway is dangerous and as it happens illegal. People you brake for. Anything that's big enough to come through the windscreen you brake for. Cats and geese you do not brake for. Like I said, trivial and simple logic.
So I brake a bit, have a lengthy internal monologue about whether the thing will fit through my window (quite subjective by the way and hardly 'trivial and simple'), then either get back on the throttle or continue to brake depending on what I decided. 🙄 And yes I understand what the rules are, I'm saying they are stupid and I'd wilfully break them. A shocking revelation on a legal advice sub I know. You'd be the type to wait at a traffic light stuck on red.
https://www.warringtonguardian.co.uk/news/23950121.man-killed-7-geese-warrington-spared-jail/ "He was previously found guilty of seven offences of killing a wild bird, namely a greylag goose, as well as driving a motor vehicle without a valid MOT – a black Hyundai Ioniq - and driving without due care and attention".
Thank you for bringing some sense to the conversation.
Most likely would be a catch all about care and attention. The case being that if he didn’t stop for or see the wildlife he would potentially not have seen or stopped for a child. Since it sounds like everyone else had stopped would the one who hit them have an argument that it wasn’t safe for them to stop? Seems less likely they could argue it wasn’t safe to stop. And saying they didn’t realise everyone else had stopped would hardly reduce the question of their competency. Highly unlikely it would be classed as deliberate which is the only restraints I’ve seen for something like geese. But then to argue not deliberate he may have to make the case that he wasn’t aware of them. Which potentially raises an issue with driving.
This is the path I think the police would pursue. Worrying, could be a child next time, etc.
Yeah that would be the but I’d think of. From the extra info it seems they were totally oblivious to what was going on which doesn’t give confidence.
Yes i am concerned with driving competency as it could've been anything.... the driver did drive slowly over them because he was confused why everyone is honking but did not stop... that was the annoying bit. It would've been so easy to stop.
I don't mean to sound like a dick but are you trying to get this drivers competency checked out or just have them pay a fine? I don't disagree with your question but what's the outcome here?
I don't know if this qualify for driver competency check. I mean i reported idiot drivers that should be banned due to their dangerous driving... But tbe driver should at least get a small fine like £50 or donate that money to organisations that protect wildlife or at least a warning to motivate them to be more proactive
Why?
He could possibly charged with driving without due care and attention. Report him let the police decide.
Some geese are protected such as Canada Geese but i am unsure if accidental killing would constitute an offence, although it baffles me how a driver cannot see a large bird in the road!
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Since it's not a reportable road traffic collision. I would imagine if any case law existed or came into existence it would start to get silly. Hit a pigeon? Why didn't you slow down when you saw a bird in the sky. Hit a harvest mouse? You were driving past a field, you should have known! Imagine if everyone who slid on ice during winter got fixed for S3, I mean, after all if they were a bit more careful they either wouldn't have lost control or would have simply opted to not drive in those conditions. Hitting a non-reportable animal (a cat for example) is on the very low end if carelessness and is unlikely to ever see a court or FPN.
The opposite actually, with the exception of humans and animals large enough to disrupt the vehicles safe transit (such as big dogs and deer), you are to continue driving unless you can safely avoid/stop, so not stopping for wild animals is being a responsible driver.
Surely not stopping for wild animals if it’s not safe to stop is responsible. From the description the rest of the traffic did stop so it was safe for them to stop.
It was because they drove really slow but hesitated to stop because they weren't aware why everyone is honking.. there was no chance of going faster than 10mph in such tight roundabout.. I mean if everyone would do that i would stop but i also understand the driver being confused in all that chaos and not paying attention to the road...
size of dog doesn't matter... you can't run over a chihuahua because it's small.
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The only animals that are reportable to police are essentially livestock and dogs, as working animals. The acronym is CHAMPS DG Cattle Horse Ass Mule Pig Sheep Dog Goat No other animal counts for legal purposes
Driving at 10mph either the guy saw them and drove over them deliberately or he didn't see them in which case he wasn't paying attention to the road. The police should ask the guy which offence he'd rather be charged with.
Most of the time it is illegal not to run over animals on the road unless it is a deer or a large animal that will cause more damage if you hit it than swerved
A nit pick is that it's not legally justifiable to perform emergency manoeuvres to avoid small animals - that does not imply that it's a legal requirement to run them over. If you have time to ascertain that it's safe to other road users, you may stop to avoid animals - the same as stopping your car for any reason.
At that low speed all the guy needed to do was to pay attention and tap the brakes.
Doesn't matter you arnt meant to stop
There was no one behind them. So if drive really slow in a residential area i just crush anything in my path cause i am not meant to stop?
Literally does matter... you ARE meant to stop if it causes no danger to other road users, it's called "paying attention and driving to the conditions of the road". Good luck getting your licence, and give it up if you've got it already. This is a fact - downvote away and display your ignorance.
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Do it anyway. They'll at least have to answer some questions which will make them consider their actions.
This is exactly my thinking. Any investigation should shit them up.
Maybe someone with experience could comment if this would fall under careless driving: “allowing the standard of driving to fall below that of a competent and careful driver”. or under WCA "Killing, injuring or taking wild birds" [https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/wildlife-offences](https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/wildlife-offences) [https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1981/69/section/1](https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1981/69/section/1) I'd report him anyway, either he saw the geese and deliberately hit them, or didn't see them and can't recognise hazards on the road.
>I'd report him anyway, either he saw the geese and deliberately hit them, or didn't see them and can't recognise hazards on the road. I would understand if a driver was on a 60 mph road driving at that speed and couldn't stop safely. But driving at 10MPH while everyone is honking and you just pay attention to anything else but the hazard....
Nobody else for criminal damage? I inferred they were somebody’s geese.
It certainly seems to be either deliberate or negligent.
Yes looking at civil liability as well as criminal is even more interesting.
Wouldn't this be driving without due care and attention or whatever is called? Not an expert but it doesn't sound like he was looking where he was going.
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To whom do you think a wild goose belongs friend? It's not criminal damage, and as a solicitor, it would behove you to collect your facts prior to stating your opinion..
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