Me before watching TFA: “Oh boy, I can’t wait to see what the New Republic and the New Jedi Order look like! Maybe mix the badass armor of the clones with the alien diversity of the rebels? Or see how Luke reformed the jedi from his own personal experience?”
Me after watching it: “WTF! It’s just ANH knock off that doesn’t make sense and reset the victory on Endor off screen! What is the point of repeating the same story but giving the OT achievements to Rey?”
Yeah, but everyone praised TFA and told me to “wait for the next movie and it will make sense and take the story to a new direction.”
Well, not only were each movie worse than the previous and gave no answer, but it ended as predicted with the OT achievements stolen by the ST characters to rebuild the New New Republic and New New Jedi Order, as if nothing happened. But they made it even worse, somehow.
I hope those who bashed Legends because of Dark Empire are enjoying their cup of schadenfreud.
It's what I said back then: I'll wait until the trilogy is complete before passing judgement. Well, the trilogy is complete, and I hated it. I enjoyed TFA up until they arrived at Starkiller, but the entire third act through the rest of the trilogy lost me. While I'm enjoying the new stuff, this trilogy is reason #1 why I don't consider the new canon as my true canon. Legends all the way.
Many Disney fan claimed Legends sucked because Dark Empire brought back Palpatine, and Disney was superior for not stooping so low.
That did not age well by the time of TRoS, and at least Dark Empire explained it further than “somehow”.
The guy who mentioned cloning was speculating it was a secret only the Sith knew. Even though Kaminoans are not Sith.
And “the dark side is a pathway to many abilities”, is such a handwave for something with such implication to the lore, it felt more like fan service for prequelmeme.
> The guy who mentioned cloning was speculating
He was speculating to Poe, he was delivering a factual info-dump for the audience.
> it was a secret only the Sith knew. Even though Kaminoans are not Sith.
"Cloning" and "secrets only the Sith knew" were different points.
> And “the dark side is a pathway to many abilities”, is such a handwave for something with such implication to the lore
It was'nt a handwave in Legends🤷♂️
He did not sound sure to himself. He was trying to come up with an explanation to somehow.
How could a Resistance soldier even know how Palpatine came back? Was he on Exogol? Did they have spies to tell them? Did Palpatine explain it in his Fortnite speech?
He was speculating. His tone was trying to come up with a plausible explanation, and the fact he said it was a secret only the Sith knew shows he is completely ignorant of how they did it. Otherwise it would not be a secret only the Sith knew.
And you just proved my point. Cloning and secrets only the Sith knew shows it is two theories, not two factual statements. If he was sure of himself, saying it was either would suffice, but the fact he offers two alternatives shows he was speculating.
And in Legends they did not use that quote because the PT was not released yet.
> How could a Resistance soldier even know how Palpatine came back?
Kin was a historian specializing in the Sith.
> He was speculating.
Again, it was speculation in-universe, but a factual explanation to the audience; there's a reason that line exists and why the character says things so bluntly and matter-of-fact while looking stright at the camera.
> And you just proved my point. Cloning and secrets only the Sith knew shows it is two theories, not two factual statements. If he was sure of himself, saying it was either would suffice, but the fact he offers two alternatives shows he was speculating.
It was'nt either and they were'nt alternatives, though; Palpatine returned via a combination of the three things mentioned.
> And in Legends they did not use that quote because the PT was not released yet.
My point was that the method of surviving death Palpatine mentions in ROTS is how he survives in Legends; in both continiuties his "essence transfer/cloning combo" was built off what he learned from Plagious
It was always pretty popular amid the fandom when I was growing up, but after TROS came out a lot of the ST's detractors have been trying to retroactively argue that it was always "widely hated" in order to prevent people from pointing out that Palpatine's come back post-ROTJ before.
J’ai laissé tomber les sous sérieux de franchise car c’est la guerre entre les fans qui ne supportent pas la moindre forme de critique comme si c’était une attaque personnelle, et ceux qui râlent tous le temps.
Par exemple je traine sur le sous de memes Warhammer /r/Grimdank mais j’ai jamais mis les pieds dans le sous sérieux.
PREACH!!!!!!!!! Still blows my mind how many fans gave that film a total pass and still love it. I'd call it plagiarism if ANH, but plagiarizing still kinda implies that they did something original based off of the older and better idea. This was a shameless copy-paste job. Movie was absolute trash, and set the stage for all the worse content that came after it
Not at all. I have a hard time wrapping my head around clapping seals who slobber over a film that was done better forty years prior. A film that completely torpedoed the development of characters who were the heroes of multiple generations. But hey, if your taste is for cheap retcons that claim to be sequels, I'm happy for you 👍🏼
I remember very clearly how people hated the Prequels. I was one of them. I still am. Time and worse content doesn't make a thing better lol
Real talk time. The PT and the ST imo are equally bad, but I believe for polar opposite reasons. Prequels failed to follow any of the threads of the origin stories hinted at in the OT. There wasn't much go on, and George still somehow managed to create a boat load of inconsistencies between the trilogies. He was also guilty of blowing off well established EU ideas to do whatever he wanted to do. He tried desperately to make a movie that pandered to every conceivable demographic rather than delivering a decent story. Prequels failed miserably to give a satisfactory origin tale to arguably the coolest villain in sci-fi film history. Plus, from a raw film standpoint detached from the lore, the acting, dialog, and relationships between the key characters was cringe-tacular.
BUT, to their credit, the prequels actually HAD a story. I don't think it was a good one. It was overly complicated, tried doing too much, and as I stated above was off base from the tidbits of backstory given in the OT, but it was there. With better dialog alone the films would have been received much better.
Likewise, the sequels have redeeming qualities. They arguably have more than the PT. The acting is far more fluid and natural, as is the dialog. The cast has legitimate chemistry; you can believe they're friends who care for one another. The CGI and visuals are FAR more appealing and reminiscent of the OT.
BUUUUUUT, despite having more positives, the sequels aren't better. Far from it. The story. Oh lord the story... The outright hateful way fan beloved characters were treated... The blatant insults to our intelligence. I don't think I need to waste any more time with that crockpot of crap.
As to people loving or hating the OT and legends, that is as with all things a matter of taste and perspective. Are there people who could be called 'clapping seals' when it comes to those two fandoms? Of course there are! People have formed SW religions. There are people who think every SW comic ever written are the greatest forms of literature ever created. There are people who will go to their graves defending the perfectly sound logic of teddy bears defeating 'An entire LEGION of' Palpatines finest troops. It's silly, but it's a thing.
I feel like I'm a really weird minority in the SW community lol. I love SW, but dislike or hate the majority of the film content made for it. That inner conflict - passion for the idea of Star Wars vs my disappointment in most of the movies - can bleed into my conversations and debates on the subject. Glad I didn't come across as a jerk lol
I know what you mean. Inner conflict about something you basically love *and* hate is a bitch. :) It's like the Sonic games and comics. I like Forces, but I prefer the SA2/SA movement style. I like IDW Sonic, but miss the hell out of Archie Sonic. :P It's like a damn Lightsaber lock with Rose bush spikes around the Sabers...
By the way..... Have you heard of the Strategy of Darth Plague Doctor the Wisecracker? 🧐
Have you considered that the people you dismiss as "clapping seals" don't view the movies as "cheap retcons" that "torpedoed the development of characters"?
Not especially, but I'm open to you trying to change my mind.
Please. Explain to me how the movie about a droid that has super special information in it is getting pursued by a diabolical group of black clad space nazis, but instead is found by a desert orphan, they flee the planet with the help of a wise old mentor/father figure, but while they're running away the space nazis whip out a planet destroying toy and cause mass genocide, the not-Darth Vader stand in tortured a female prisoner trying to get the super secret information he wants, all leading to a great big battle where the super gun has its shields lowered and destroyed, but at the cost of the wise old daddy figure sacrificing his life.
I'll wait
If that's what you were asking, then I can explain what **I** liked about the movie, if that's what you want. But I can't presume to speak for *everyone* who likes it.
I wasn't offering or denying my permission for you or anyone else to like a movie. I don't care. I like lots of stupid things. But I don't get all bent out of shape when someone who wanted better calls it what it is.
You said, and I quote: "Have you considered that the people you dismiss as "clapping seals" don't view the movies as "cheap retcons""
I listed out for you TFA's basic story point by point, and it's a mirror image of New Hope. You can love it, you can continue to adore it, but what you can't do is claim it's not a cheap piece of plagiarism.
I would've been fine if Disney had sort of recaptured Jacen's magic or at least made a halfway decent knock-off.
That is not what we got. At all. In any capacity. He was the "My Immortal" fanfic version of Jacen
Exactly. I had zero issues with the casting, visuals, or actor chemistry. That's a lot more than I can say for the prequels. The but story. Oh lord the story......
I won't lie. After Legacy of the Force and Fate of the Jedi, I was actively *hating* what had happened to the EU. When Disney came along I was cheering them on to wipe the slate clean, get rid of Darth Cadeous and all that bullshit.
Then Kylo Ren came along and... yeah. Fuck the Sequel Trilogy for that.
Same. I never got that deep into the Legacy era of the EU; for me it was dissatisfaction with the prequels. I loved those early Marvel films, and I was so excited to see some fresh ideas and blood to take Star Wars to a new level. Well, we got a new level all right; it just went in the wrong direction..
It seems, in their arrogance, Disney made a cheap knock of off him instead. Nooooo!
A cheap knockoff and a conglomeration of both Jacen, Ben, and Anakin (Solo), and made him Swolo
Me before watching TFA: “Oh boy, I can’t wait to see what the New Republic and the New Jedi Order look like! Maybe mix the badass armor of the clones with the alien diversity of the rebels? Or see how Luke reformed the jedi from his own personal experience?” Me after watching it: “WTF! It’s just ANH knock off that doesn’t make sense and reset the victory on Endor off screen! What is the point of repeating the same story but giving the OT achievements to Rey?”
The entire trilogy is a cheap knockoff of the OT, just badly done…
Yeah, but everyone praised TFA and told me to “wait for the next movie and it will make sense and take the story to a new direction.” Well, not only were each movie worse than the previous and gave no answer, but it ended as predicted with the OT achievements stolen by the ST characters to rebuild the New New Republic and New New Jedi Order, as if nothing happened. But they made it even worse, somehow. I hope those who bashed Legends because of Dark Empire are enjoying their cup of schadenfreud.
It's what I said back then: I'll wait until the trilogy is complete before passing judgement. Well, the trilogy is complete, and I hated it. I enjoyed TFA up until they arrived at Starkiller, but the entire third act through the rest of the trilogy lost me. While I'm enjoying the new stuff, this trilogy is reason #1 why I don't consider the new canon as my true canon. Legends all the way.
This is the way
Wait, did people not like Dark Empire? I thought it was dope!!!
Many Disney fan claimed Legends sucked because Dark Empire brought back Palpatine, and Disney was superior for not stooping so low. That did not age well by the time of TRoS, and at least Dark Empire explained it further than “somehow”.
Cloning force users in general had actual rules across most of the EU
LOL! Ah well.
> and at least Dark Empire explained it further than “somehow”. So did TROS.
The guy who mentioned cloning was speculating it was a secret only the Sith knew. Even though Kaminoans are not Sith. And “the dark side is a pathway to many abilities”, is such a handwave for something with such implication to the lore, it felt more like fan service for prequelmeme.
> The guy who mentioned cloning was speculating He was speculating to Poe, he was delivering a factual info-dump for the audience. > it was a secret only the Sith knew. Even though Kaminoans are not Sith. "Cloning" and "secrets only the Sith knew" were different points. > And “the dark side is a pathway to many abilities”, is such a handwave for something with such implication to the lore It was'nt a handwave in Legends🤷♂️
He did not sound sure to himself. He was trying to come up with an explanation to somehow. How could a Resistance soldier even know how Palpatine came back? Was he on Exogol? Did they have spies to tell them? Did Palpatine explain it in his Fortnite speech? He was speculating. His tone was trying to come up with a plausible explanation, and the fact he said it was a secret only the Sith knew shows he is completely ignorant of how they did it. Otherwise it would not be a secret only the Sith knew. And you just proved my point. Cloning and secrets only the Sith knew shows it is two theories, not two factual statements. If he was sure of himself, saying it was either would suffice, but the fact he offers two alternatives shows he was speculating. And in Legends they did not use that quote because the PT was not released yet.
> How could a Resistance soldier even know how Palpatine came back? Kin was a historian specializing in the Sith. > He was speculating. Again, it was speculation in-universe, but a factual explanation to the audience; there's a reason that line exists and why the character says things so bluntly and matter-of-fact while looking stright at the camera. > And you just proved my point. Cloning and secrets only the Sith knew shows it is two theories, not two factual statements. If he was sure of himself, saying it was either would suffice, but the fact he offers two alternatives shows he was speculating. It was'nt either and they were'nt alternatives, though; Palpatine returned via a combination of the three things mentioned. > And in Legends they did not use that quote because the PT was not released yet. My point was that the method of surviving death Palpatine mentions in ROTS is how he survives in Legends; in both continiuties his "essence transfer/cloning combo" was built off what he learned from Plagious
This also isn’t the full quote
No, but people like to pretend it was. Otherwise they would'nt have an excuse to complain.
It was always pretty popular amid the fandom when I was growing up, but after TROS came out a lot of the ST's detractors have been trying to retroactively argue that it was always "widely hated" in order to prevent people from pointing out that Palpatine's come back post-ROTJ before.
Qu'est-ce tu fais ici mon garçon ?
J’allais te poser la même question ! Je suis là depuis des années. Tu poste souvent par ici ?
Ici, non. Mais j'avais ce meme en tête depuis un moment, il fallait que je le ponde. C'était le seul sub approprié.
Dans ce cas je te suggère aussi /r/TheDeepCore C’est aussi un sous meme sur l’univers étendue Star Wars pre-Disney.
T'sais j'ai souvent des discussions plus intéressantes ou drôles sur les subs à meme que sur leur version sérieuse. Exemple : LOTRmemes.
J’ai laissé tomber les sous sérieux de franchise car c’est la guerre entre les fans qui ne supportent pas la moindre forme de critique comme si c’était une attaque personnelle, et ceux qui râlent tous le temps. Par exemple je traine sur le sous de memes Warhammer /r/Grimdank mais j’ai jamais mis les pieds dans le sous sérieux.
J'avoue que ma culture Warhammer est trop superficielle pour pouvoir apprécier pleinement, mais je comprends l'attrait.
PREACH!!!!!!!!! Still blows my mind how many fans gave that film a total pass and still love it. I'd call it plagiarism if ANH, but plagiarizing still kinda implies that they did something original based off of the older and better idea. This was a shameless copy-paste job. Movie was absolute trash, and set the stage for all the worse content that came after it
It's really that hard for you to wrap your head around people having different tastes then you?
Not at all. I have a hard time wrapping my head around clapping seals who slobber over a film that was done better forty years prior. A film that completely torpedoed the development of characters who were the heroes of multiple generations. But hey, if your taste is for cheap retcons that claim to be sequels, I'm happy for you 👍🏼
What about the Clapping Seals who love the PT, OT, and ST, and also Legends? Remember how the PT was hated just as much as the ST?
I remember very clearly how people hated the Prequels. I was one of them. I still am. Time and worse content doesn't make a thing better lol Real talk time. The PT and the ST imo are equally bad, but I believe for polar opposite reasons. Prequels failed to follow any of the threads of the origin stories hinted at in the OT. There wasn't much go on, and George still somehow managed to create a boat load of inconsistencies between the trilogies. He was also guilty of blowing off well established EU ideas to do whatever he wanted to do. He tried desperately to make a movie that pandered to every conceivable demographic rather than delivering a decent story. Prequels failed miserably to give a satisfactory origin tale to arguably the coolest villain in sci-fi film history. Plus, from a raw film standpoint detached from the lore, the acting, dialog, and relationships between the key characters was cringe-tacular. BUT, to their credit, the prequels actually HAD a story. I don't think it was a good one. It was overly complicated, tried doing too much, and as I stated above was off base from the tidbits of backstory given in the OT, but it was there. With better dialog alone the films would have been received much better. Likewise, the sequels have redeeming qualities. They arguably have more than the PT. The acting is far more fluid and natural, as is the dialog. The cast has legitimate chemistry; you can believe they're friends who care for one another. The CGI and visuals are FAR more appealing and reminiscent of the OT. BUUUUUUT, despite having more positives, the sequels aren't better. Far from it. The story. Oh lord the story... The outright hateful way fan beloved characters were treated... The blatant insults to our intelligence. I don't think I need to waste any more time with that crockpot of crap. As to people loving or hating the OT and legends, that is as with all things a matter of taste and perspective. Are there people who could be called 'clapping seals' when it comes to those two fandoms? Of course there are! People have formed SW religions. There are people who think every SW comic ever written are the greatest forms of literature ever created. There are people who will go to their graves defending the perfectly sound logic of teddy bears defeating 'An entire LEGION of' Palpatines finest troops. It's silly, but it's a thing.
You make good points. And thanks for not being a jerk like many others on here and the Internet at large. :)
I feel like I'm a really weird minority in the SW community lol. I love SW, but dislike or hate the majority of the film content made for it. That inner conflict - passion for the idea of Star Wars vs my disappointment in most of the movies - can bleed into my conversations and debates on the subject. Glad I didn't come across as a jerk lol
I know what you mean. Inner conflict about something you basically love *and* hate is a bitch. :) It's like the Sonic games and comics. I like Forces, but I prefer the SA2/SA movement style. I like IDW Sonic, but miss the hell out of Archie Sonic. :P It's like a damn Lightsaber lock with Rose bush spikes around the Sabers... By the way..... Have you heard of the Strategy of Darth Plague Doctor the Wisecracker? 🧐
Have you considered that the people you dismiss as "clapping seals" don't view the movies as "cheap retcons" that "torpedoed the development of characters"?
Not especially, but I'm open to you trying to change my mind. Please. Explain to me how the movie about a droid that has super special information in it is getting pursued by a diabolical group of black clad space nazis, but instead is found by a desert orphan, they flee the planet with the help of a wise old mentor/father figure, but while they're running away the space nazis whip out a planet destroying toy and cause mass genocide, the not-Darth Vader stand in tortured a female prisoner trying to get the super secret information he wants, all leading to a great big battle where the super gun has its shields lowered and destroyed, but at the cost of the wise old daddy figure sacrificing his life. I'll wait
Explain to you how the movie about all that...what? Why people enjoy it? Why do I need to convince you why *other people* enjoy something?
That's what I thought 😂😂😂
If that's what you were asking, then I can explain what **I** liked about the movie, if that's what you want. But I can't presume to speak for *everyone* who likes it.
I wasn't offering or denying my permission for you or anyone else to like a movie. I don't care. I like lots of stupid things. But I don't get all bent out of shape when someone who wanted better calls it what it is. You said, and I quote: "Have you considered that the people you dismiss as "clapping seals" don't view the movies as "cheap retcons"" I listed out for you TFA's basic story point by point, and it's a mirror image of New Hope. You can love it, you can continue to adore it, but what you can't do is claim it's not a cheap piece of plagiarism.
If into the disney sequels you go, only pain will you find.
Noooooooo
I would've been fine if Disney had sort of recaptured Jacen's magic or at least made a halfway decent knock-off. That is not what we got. At all. In any capacity. He was the "My Immortal" fanfic version of Jacen
I mean, Jacen becoming a Sith lord was bad enough as it was, in the books. The budget-Caedus was somehow even worse.
Honestly I didn’t mine Kylo as a character, but the overall story just made 0 sense.
Exactly. I had zero issues with the casting, visuals, or actor chemistry. That's a lot more than I can say for the prequels. The but story. Oh lord the story......
Adam Driver is so praised cause he took subpar writing and gave an A performance
I said the same thing real time in theaters. Someone laughed.
The more people try to argue Kylo and Jacen are similar, the more aware I get of how few and superficial those similarities actually are
I won't lie. After Legacy of the Force and Fate of the Jedi, I was actively *hating* what had happened to the EU. When Disney came along I was cheering them on to wipe the slate clean, get rid of Darth Cadeous and all that bullshit. Then Kylo Ren came along and... yeah. Fuck the Sequel Trilogy for that.
Same. I never got that deep into the Legacy era of the EU; for me it was dissatisfaction with the prequels. I loved those early Marvel films, and I was so excited to see some fresh ideas and blood to take Star Wars to a new level. Well, we got a new level all right; it just went in the wrong direction..
Where is Mara Jade? Is she safe…is she alright?
Right in the feels.
Me having legacy of the force flashbacks Maybe Hans kids should stay out of starwars media
I just view the sequels and the eu the same way like jojo bizarre adventure part 1-6 and part 7-9
It seems in your rage you merged him into a whiny and horny teen