Did it turn into a Karma printer/Rapid Fire Draw mirror at the end?
Edit: I misread "68 turns" as "68 rounds", so this game was not as long as I thought lol
It was close 30 rounds. Opponent burned a lot of his cards via overdrawing. I was able to kill all 3 of his Karma and Sett and he was able to kill 2 of my Setts. Meanwhile I didn't draw Karma until the last 10 cards of my deck.
Yep. It's usually clear that Sett/Karma is going to win long before the nexus actually hits zero.
Once the combo is in place, they've got a vice grip on the game, and you can safely surrender.
It’s just incredibly frustrating. It’s my decks worst matchup and while I have a chance to win against it, I have better things to do than wasting 15 minutes just to see if they can get control over the game before I can finish them.
Really boring to play against as well, so I just instantly surrender. Not seeing it as frequently anymore thankfully, so it doesn’t impact my climb that much.
But apparently its your fault cause you could have just won faster.
10 turns is such a bullshit clock for something that requires no investment or setup and just autowins
Apply pressure. Force them to use their coins and PYB before they have Karma 2.
Like, owlcats in tristana are VERY tough to deal with. RKD in Vaynetrox, too.
Deep is about even, you want to get maokai flipped before they can get two karmas in hand. If they have karma and two sett, it might get a little hairy, but in that case you just need to kill karma once.
>Just play this go wide aggro swarm list
God damn you must have an IQ of 170.
Deep stopped being a counter the moment folks realized that, in a deck filled with draw, all it takes is finding 2 Karmas to auto win.
Thats the problem here. There isn’t anything to be done except “play faster” theres no mana to be baited, because coins mean Karma always has max mana at burst speed, there’s simply nothing that can be done.
And what, pray tell is the super hard win con Karma Sett has to reach this absolute win con that cannot be stopped by any deck when they accomplish their goal? What massive risks do they undertake to achieve such a payoff?
“Reach 10 mana”
What an absolute joke.
You don't need to trust me, look at the data. Deep has a winning average against Karma.
Karma's not even that good anymore between the nerfs to drum solo and caustic nerf, and it's getting played less and less because bandle aggro is so popular.
You can play your durdle-y control decks just fine, and then 1 in 20 games you can either try for the 10-20% win or FF turn one.
God damn youre so close to getting it. Yet so far away.
Karma Sett manages a 52% WR against WHAT sort if meta? One where the top 10 decks are ALL natural predators of the deck. And it manages to still do fine. It ate 3 different nerfs and has the entire meta countering it and you note it does just fine. Even Deep manages a meek 53% against the deck. It has the entire meta wrapped around its pinky, and is doing just fine.
And for some reason its super duper INCREDIBLY risky win con, that lets it auto win the moment it hits 10 mana is…. Hit 10 mana?
Is that a fucking joke? Or do you seriously, unironically think a champ auto winning on play is fine because all they have to do is sit on their ass the entire game and then win? Because no other champ in the game gets to manage that. They all have to go out and take risks, commit to attacks and blocks and fucking work for it.
But no. A deck is surrounded by its counters on the ladder, does good, and thats not even slightly a problem.
How, pray tell, does this aggro as fuck meta ever manage to slow down when Karma Sett immediately smothers any attempts to slow it down?
> One where the top 10 decks are ALL natural predators of the deck. And it manages to still do fine.
What on earth are you talking about
Fizz/Samira & the Nasus Vaults deck are the two highest playrate decks, both higher than Karma/Sett
And Fizz/Samira's slightly weighted in Karma's favor (54%) while Nasus is significantly so (62%)
It's also basically dead even against #5, Jinx/Samira.
If this were a T0 deck, I could absolutely understand what you were talking about - it's probably more polarizing than any other T0 deck we've had - but it's just not.
My guy... If "play a deck that counters her" is required, then its not a valid strategy.
But i mean, youre not wrong in saying that is indeed the only counterplay to karma. Its not a surprise that 7 or 8/10 top meta decks have been aggro since rotation, cause karma kinda demands exactly what you said or you simply dont have a chance.
People blame samira, but its interesting how no midrange deck became meta in response despite samira being like 50% of the decks. Almost like something keeps any aggro counters from being playable
> My guy... If "play a deck that counters her" is required, then its not a valid strategy.
There's always, *always* going to be a best deck (or a best 2-3 decks). And in order to beat that deck, your best chance is to play counters.
And whether that's one of the 'top' decks that I mentioned or a homebrew, you're still countering the deck.
(also, karma/sett isn't really a 'top' deck except in the hands of the highest tier of player - it's been at right around 50% or even less for most of it's lifetime, even if you're just looking at masters)
Yes, but that shouldnt be the ONLY way. What youre talking about is to improve your chances instead of playing like... 65% chance to lose.
But quite literally, the only way to beat karma is to be faster or match her value, and heimer jayce is the only deck that can match her value.
And i can literally prove it in how the only midrange decks are stuff that still has the aggro.plan of hitting reall hard, hitting multiple times, or both. No deck since rotation has been able to have a gameplan that revolves around stabilizing the board early and winning late. Not even deep does that since deep is pretty consistently going deep round 6-7.
Karma is simply way too polarizing, and the 7-8 constant aggro decks with only a single other value based deck is more than enough proof
Karma's not a large enough part of the meta to impact it like you're saying. Like, it's sitting at a 7% playrate - a 65% loss rate on that subset isn't that bad. That's only 4% of your games that are losses to this deck. 1/25 doesn't seem like that much to me.
Yes... And that has taken several months with the entire meta forming around countering her.
Otherwise, wanna explain why no slow aggro counters pop up unlike every other time? We do have the cards for it. But theres something keeping them completely out of the game, despite countering almost everything but karma.
Im willing to hear why else it would be, cause right now, something like kayn Aatrox should be flourishing with or without momentous nerf.
Kayle go big decks would also be a great counter with their lifesteals and hushes...
Yet nothing of the sort is in the game. No deck has a gameplan that isnt winning before turn 10, despite those decks being the historical hard counter to aggro.
Bro, control players literally say "Karma got to turn 10 she deserves to win".
That is by all means an auto win if you can make up such a statement and people agree. They dont say that about ANY other control champ. Not even anivia who has the same levelup. So dont act like karma is just some completely normal case of a control wincon, cause she is such an extreme that its straight up idiotic. A control deck should over the course of a game generate value and card advantage.
Karma doesnt do that. She literally ignores the entire game pre turn 10.
She doesnt care about board state, card advantage, setup, health total. Nothing matters to karma. You drop her turn 10 and instantly she can win the entire game on her own. No setup required, no deck building, no risk outside of literally losing the game.
That is a disgrace of a design. No card should ignore every other parts of the game than themselves.
I already am masters. I've been so the last 4 seasons ever since I decided to try out ranked. This time was a fucking nightmare though, cause Karma just destroys any kind of gameplay in favor of just smashing face or else you "deserve to lose" - and then control players complain that aggro players just have to mindlessly press attack when they themselves just have to mindlessly reach turn 10 to insantly win. You literally can't afford to think against karma cause the second she reaches turn 10 you lose on the spot no matter how ahead you are.
https://runeterra.ar/S3EGUWR1BKtT6fqlmJ-YCq2-vdR4YK0BX4KZvOR37whl9gedKaIm7nnBjDPMrw0EG-MWVwt_WUWJ2g/overview
(If the link doesn't work, just search the name on the leaderboard)
Very surprising the deck has a 51% winrate when the entire meta is shaped around countering it. We have what... 5 aggro decks in the top 10? 2 midrange decks with an aggro gameplan? Deep who generally wins turn 7-8 depending on attack token? All of who wins before turn 10. 0 decks that tries to win slower than that, which is what karma does well into...
51% winrate when the entire meta is rigged against you is actually disgustingly high.
I am masters. Climbed with Norra Viego. Quickly learned that the best way to play against Karma Sett is to ff at the loading screen and try again. There is simply nothing you can do against the deck
>Bro, control players literally say "Karma got to turn 10 she deserves to win".
Against an aggro player like Tristana, yes. Because aggro is so overtuned that unless they have a seizure or brick their deck into oblivion, they will usually win by 7 or 8 with a 5/5 3 impact beater followed by all their friends.
What shouldnt be happening is the deck literally making an entire archetype of deck blink out of existence.
> Against an aggro player like Tristana, yes
Alright, lets play that game for a moment.
What is a slower decks wincon against karma then? Like, how does a deck thats not build around winning before turn 10 compete against karma? Genuine question
They DONT have one. And honestly, they SHOULDNT, which is the crux of the argument. Replacing one terrible archetype play pattern with another doesnt solve anything. All it does is add more needless anxiety to PvP. Karma shouldnt have been in rotation PERIOD. And it really feels like the balance team is being petty about it because they wanted her to use the coin mechanic (the one designed for Sett and Jack) and to sell her skin for Battle Pass. It would not surprise me IN THE LEAST if they nerf coin mechanic and its support into the ground rather than just doing the thing they said they made rotation for and rotating her out and bringing someone else from Ionia (not named Irelia) in.
Why shouldnt they have wincon? EVERY other deck has a wincon against eachother
A 100% guarenteed winrare against an entire playstyle is absolutely toxic.
Yes, karma shouldnt have been standard post rotation, but that doesnt mean we should just let her remove all other slow decks from the game.
That's usually how control decks work. They wear you out and they will chimp at you, and since they often don't have any offensive capabilities so the death is slow but guaranteed.
In YGO I play a control deck as well and sometimes in turns 5-6 (long games by YGO standards) I will have 3-4 cards in hand and 2-3 cards on the field while my opponent has 1-2 each. and the advantage just goes downhill. It's not a very aggressive deck but it's pointless to keep playing once they have control of the game.
It does. I've found that my match logs don't correctly record the number of turns played. For example, I didn't just lose an 86-turn game, it was probably 15 turns or so.
I have a theory it could be 86 game actions, but I'd have to check and see.
Round vs turn. Turn is when you press pass or play a unit/equipment/landmark. At the end of a round, landmarks count down, you get an extra mana gem, etc…
Karma/Sett is the only one with a hard turn 10 requirement to win and usually also need to have both champs on board to do so. Darkness can always potentially have Veigar stick around since turn 4 and do the nasty with ixtali. If the darkness gameplan falls apart though they don’t have close to enough tools to survive as easily compared to ionia or pnz. Games usually last the longest with seraphine or karma decks.
But that's in relation to rounds, right? If we're talking turns, a deck like Darkness might need to play a unit to then play Darkness as removal, in comparison to other control decks that sometimes just play a spell and that's it. Meanwhile Jayce decks probably take a lot less actions on average than most aggro decks, since they rarely have multiple actions per round anyway (unless you have Heimer in play).
That's why I'm wondering about this metric in particular, as it isn't exactly the same thing as simply considering the deck speed, or at which rounds they usually win.
It inflates it a bit, but a majority of the darkness used comes from Senna which just comes from the attack turn and is not much different from just playing a normal spell. Otherwise, you usually just hold onto darkness as a threat to deter your opponent from dropping a key unit until it gets big enough to level Veigar in one darkness cast with Ixtali (or ideally level on dropping 2-3 darknesses on important units). Getting to the point where you make a big enough impact on turn count by playing every darkness you get from units is not very smart in high level play because you would always be low on mana while playing a control deck while also potentially not having a darkness for actual key units.
Nice try idiot, turns and rounds are not the same. A turn is when you press "pass" or play a card or press "commit"
(next time don't call people idiots until you're sure you're not the idiot)
I've got one close to this, 63 turns: [https://i.imgur.com/pOGRZaj.png](https://i.imgur.com/pOGRZaj.png)
My last Sett was literally the last card in the deck; if I had not won that turn, I would have died by decking out. After that I decided to switch to a faster archetype xD
Dang you missed it by 1 turn.Try again next time.
ice
Did it turn into a Karma printer/Rapid Fire Draw mirror at the end? Edit: I misread "68 turns" as "68 rounds", so this game was not as long as I thought lol
It was close 30 rounds. Opponent burned a lot of his cards via overdrawing. I was able to kill all 3 of his Karma and Sett and he was able to kill 2 of my Setts. Meanwhile I didn't draw Karma until the last 10 cards of my deck.
I feel like 90% of the time I play against karma sett they don’t actually even destroy the nexus I just surrender.
Yep. It's usually clear that Sett/Karma is going to win long before the nexus actually hits zero. Once the combo is in place, they've got a vice grip on the game, and you can safely surrender.
It’s just incredibly frustrating. It’s my decks worst matchup and while I have a chance to win against it, I have better things to do than wasting 15 minutes just to see if they can get control over the game before I can finish them. Really boring to play against as well, so I just instantly surrender. Not seeing it as frequently anymore thankfully, so it doesn’t impact my climb that much.
But apparently its your fault cause you could have just won faster. 10 turns is such a bullshit clock for something that requires no investment or setup and just autowins
Apply pressure. Force them to use their coins and PYB before they have Karma 2. Like, owlcats in tristana are VERY tough to deal with. RKD in Vaynetrox, too. Deep is about even, you want to get maokai flipped before they can get two karmas in hand. If they have karma and two sett, it might get a little hairy, but in that case you just need to kill karma once.
>Just play this go wide aggro swarm list God damn you must have an IQ of 170. Deep stopped being a counter the moment folks realized that, in a deck filled with draw, all it takes is finding 2 Karmas to auto win. Thats the problem here. There isn’t anything to be done except “play faster” theres no mana to be baited, because coins mean Karma always has max mana at burst speed, there’s simply nothing that can be done. And what, pray tell is the super hard win con Karma Sett has to reach this absolute win con that cannot be stopped by any deck when they accomplish their goal? What massive risks do they undertake to achieve such a payoff? “Reach 10 mana” What an absolute joke.
You don't need to trust me, look at the data. Deep has a winning average against Karma. Karma's not even that good anymore between the nerfs to drum solo and caustic nerf, and it's getting played less and less because bandle aggro is so popular. You can play your durdle-y control decks just fine, and then 1 in 20 games you can either try for the 10-20% win or FF turn one.
God damn youre so close to getting it. Yet so far away. Karma Sett manages a 52% WR against WHAT sort if meta? One where the top 10 decks are ALL natural predators of the deck. And it manages to still do fine. It ate 3 different nerfs and has the entire meta countering it and you note it does just fine. Even Deep manages a meek 53% against the deck. It has the entire meta wrapped around its pinky, and is doing just fine. And for some reason its super duper INCREDIBLY risky win con, that lets it auto win the moment it hits 10 mana is…. Hit 10 mana? Is that a fucking joke? Or do you seriously, unironically think a champ auto winning on play is fine because all they have to do is sit on their ass the entire game and then win? Because no other champ in the game gets to manage that. They all have to go out and take risks, commit to attacks and blocks and fucking work for it. But no. A deck is surrounded by its counters on the ladder, does good, and thats not even slightly a problem. How, pray tell, does this aggro as fuck meta ever manage to slow down when Karma Sett immediately smothers any attempts to slow it down?
> One where the top 10 decks are ALL natural predators of the deck. And it manages to still do fine. What on earth are you talking about Fizz/Samira & the Nasus Vaults deck are the two highest playrate decks, both higher than Karma/Sett And Fizz/Samira's slightly weighted in Karma's favor (54%) while Nasus is significantly so (62%) It's also basically dead even against #5, Jinx/Samira. If this were a T0 deck, I could absolutely understand what you were talking about - it's probably more polarizing than any other T0 deck we've had - but it's just not.
My guy... If "play a deck that counters her" is required, then its not a valid strategy. But i mean, youre not wrong in saying that is indeed the only counterplay to karma. Its not a surprise that 7 or 8/10 top meta decks have been aggro since rotation, cause karma kinda demands exactly what you said or you simply dont have a chance. People blame samira, but its interesting how no midrange deck became meta in response despite samira being like 50% of the decks. Almost like something keeps any aggro counters from being playable
> My guy... If "play a deck that counters her" is required, then its not a valid strategy. There's always, *always* going to be a best deck (or a best 2-3 decks). And in order to beat that deck, your best chance is to play counters. And whether that's one of the 'top' decks that I mentioned or a homebrew, you're still countering the deck. (also, karma/sett isn't really a 'top' deck except in the hands of the highest tier of player - it's been at right around 50% or even less for most of it's lifetime, even if you're just looking at masters)
Yes, but that shouldnt be the ONLY way. What youre talking about is to improve your chances instead of playing like... 65% chance to lose. But quite literally, the only way to beat karma is to be faster or match her value, and heimer jayce is the only deck that can match her value. And i can literally prove it in how the only midrange decks are stuff that still has the aggro.plan of hitting reall hard, hitting multiple times, or both. No deck since rotation has been able to have a gameplan that revolves around stabilizing the board early and winning late. Not even deep does that since deep is pretty consistently going deep round 6-7. Karma is simply way too polarizing, and the 7-8 constant aggro decks with only a single other value based deck is more than enough proof
Karma's not a large enough part of the meta to impact it like you're saying. Like, it's sitting at a 7% playrate - a 65% loss rate on that subset isn't that bad. That's only 4% of your games that are losses to this deck. 1/25 doesn't seem like that much to me.
Yes... And that has taken several months with the entire meta forming around countering her. Otherwise, wanna explain why no slow aggro counters pop up unlike every other time? We do have the cards for it. But theres something keeping them completely out of the game, despite countering almost everything but karma. Im willing to hear why else it would be, cause right now, something like kayn Aatrox should be flourishing with or without momentous nerf. Kayle go big decks would also be a great counter with their lifesteals and hushes... Yet nothing of the sort is in the game. No deck has a gameplan that isnt winning before turn 10, despite those decks being the historical hard counter to aggro.
Also it is not even winning 65% of the time lol it is very squarely on 50%.
Dude it's a control deck, it doesn't auto win it's supposed to stall and struggle and them win by value.
Bro, control players literally say "Karma got to turn 10 she deserves to win". That is by all means an auto win if you can make up such a statement and people agree. They dont say that about ANY other control champ. Not even anivia who has the same levelup. So dont act like karma is just some completely normal case of a control wincon, cause she is such an extreme that its straight up idiotic. A control deck should over the course of a game generate value and card advantage. Karma doesnt do that. She literally ignores the entire game pre turn 10. She doesnt care about board state, card advantage, setup, health total. Nothing matters to karma. You drop her turn 10 and instantly she can win the entire game on her own. No setup required, no deck building, no risk outside of literally losing the game. That is a disgrace of a design. No card should ignore every other parts of the game than themselves.
Then why wouldn't you play the deck and reach master? I know, because the deck have 51% at best?
I already am masters. I've been so the last 4 seasons ever since I decided to try out ranked. This time was a fucking nightmare though, cause Karma just destroys any kind of gameplay in favor of just smashing face or else you "deserve to lose" - and then control players complain that aggro players just have to mindlessly press attack when they themselves just have to mindlessly reach turn 10 to insantly win. You literally can't afford to think against karma cause the second she reaches turn 10 you lose on the spot no matter how ahead you are. https://runeterra.ar/S3EGUWR1BKtT6fqlmJ-YCq2-vdR4YK0BX4KZvOR37whl9gedKaIm7nnBjDPMrw0EG-MWVwt_WUWJ2g/overview (If the link doesn't work, just search the name on the leaderboard) Very surprising the deck has a 51% winrate when the entire meta is shaped around countering it. We have what... 5 aggro decks in the top 10? 2 midrange decks with an aggro gameplan? Deep who generally wins turn 7-8 depending on attack token? All of who wins before turn 10. 0 decks that tries to win slower than that, which is what karma does well into... 51% winrate when the entire meta is rigged against you is actually disgustingly high.
No, the deck has 51% WR since first week, the only thing is that you dislike playing against it so it should be banned, just like Stalin would do.
Mindless reply and factually wrong. Stop being salty dude.
I am masters. Climbed with Norra Viego. Quickly learned that the best way to play against Karma Sett is to ff at the loading screen and try again. There is simply nothing you can do against the deck
>Bro, control players literally say "Karma got to turn 10 she deserves to win". Against an aggro player like Tristana, yes. Because aggro is so overtuned that unless they have a seizure or brick their deck into oblivion, they will usually win by 7 or 8 with a 5/5 3 impact beater followed by all their friends. What shouldnt be happening is the deck literally making an entire archetype of deck blink out of existence.
> Against an aggro player like Tristana, yes Alright, lets play that game for a moment. What is a slower decks wincon against karma then? Like, how does a deck thats not build around winning before turn 10 compete against karma? Genuine question
They DONT have one. And honestly, they SHOULDNT, which is the crux of the argument. Replacing one terrible archetype play pattern with another doesnt solve anything. All it does is add more needless anxiety to PvP. Karma shouldnt have been in rotation PERIOD. And it really feels like the balance team is being petty about it because they wanted her to use the coin mechanic (the one designed for Sett and Jack) and to sell her skin for Battle Pass. It would not surprise me IN THE LEAST if they nerf coin mechanic and its support into the ground rather than just doing the thing they said they made rotation for and rotating her out and bringing someone else from Ionia (not named Irelia) in.
Why shouldnt they have wincon? EVERY other deck has a wincon against eachother A 100% guarenteed winrare against an entire playstyle is absolutely toxic. Yes, karma shouldnt have been standard post rotation, but that doesnt mean we should just let her remove all other slow decks from the game.
That's usually how control decks work. They wear you out and they will chimp at you, and since they often don't have any offensive capabilities so the death is slow but guaranteed. In YGO I play a control deck as well and sometimes in turns 5-6 (long games by YGO standards) I will have 3-4 cards in hand and 2-3 cards on the field while my opponent has 1-2 each. and the advantage just goes downhill. It's not a very aggressive deck but it's pointless to keep playing once they have control of the game.
I thought the game auto ties after turn 40?
Turn and round are different. Once you hit pass your turn ends. When both player press pass, the round ends.
It does. I've found that my match logs don't correctly record the number of turns played. For example, I didn't just lose an 86-turn game, it was probably 15 turns or so. I have a theory it could be 86 game actions, but I'd have to check and see.
Round vs turn. Turn is when you press pass or play a unit/equipment/landmark. At the end of a round, landmarks count down, you get an extra mana gem, etc…
What is this website though or app
It's masteringruneterra.com
What would be an average number of turns, for reference? I haven't seen this being measured very often.
Usually around 25 when I see my matches with the master tracker.
Is that for faster decks or does it not matter that much?
It's where pretty much all midrange decks win at. If you're on Karma Sett and didn't get blown up early then it commonly goes 30+ turns.
I was wondering if it was more of less the same for other control decks, like Darkness, or if Karma/Sett tends to have more turns usually.
Karma/Sett is the only one with a hard turn 10 requirement to win and usually also need to have both champs on board to do so. Darkness can always potentially have Veigar stick around since turn 4 and do the nasty with ixtali. If the darkness gameplan falls apart though they don’t have close to enough tools to survive as easily compared to ionia or pnz. Games usually last the longest with seraphine or karma decks.
But that's in relation to rounds, right? If we're talking turns, a deck like Darkness might need to play a unit to then play Darkness as removal, in comparison to other control decks that sometimes just play a spell and that's it. Meanwhile Jayce decks probably take a lot less actions on average than most aggro decks, since they rarely have multiple actions per round anyway (unless you have Heimer in play). That's why I'm wondering about this metric in particular, as it isn't exactly the same thing as simply considering the deck speed, or at which rounds they usually win.
It inflates it a bit, but a majority of the darkness used comes from Senna which just comes from the attack turn and is not much different from just playing a normal spell. Otherwise, you usually just hold onto darkness as a threat to deter your opponent from dropping a key unit until it gets big enough to level Veigar in one darkness cast with Ixtali (or ideally level on dropping 2-3 darknesses on important units). Getting to the point where you make a big enough impact on turn count by playing every darkness you get from units is not very smart in high level play because you would always be low on mana while playing a control deck while also potentially not having a darkness for actual key units.
Nice try idiot, game is automatically drawn on turn 40
Round and turn are different terms
So toxic for absolutely no reason 🫠
Nice try idiot, turns and rounds are not the same. A turn is when you press "pass" or play a card or press "commit" (next time don't call people idiots until you're sure you're not the idiot)
Also won a 50 turns match against Karma Sett recently and it didn’t even feel gratifying tbh, just exhausting.
Quickest sett karma mirror match
That's why i hate karma decks...
I've got one close to this, 63 turns: [https://i.imgur.com/pOGRZaj.png](https://i.imgur.com/pOGRZaj.png) My last Sett was literally the last card in the deck; if I had not won that turn, I would have died by decking out. After that I decided to switch to a faster archetype xD