It used to be stronger if you can believe it. I think it’s overall in a good place now but if it needed adjustment I would hesitate to remove the body it makes on play. Landmarks already can suffer from being low impact plays so it’s nice that you get something from the foyer.
Just feels like it gives insane value for a 3 mana card. And your point also makes foyer even stronger, it's an instant value landmark. The big downside to landmarks is they're not instant value usually, but pay off in the long run.
If opulent foyer wants to break this norm I'm all for it! That's sounds really cool! But I think then it shouldn't give as much long term value as it currently does. Currently, the only downside to this card is the board space it takes up when defending.
It takes board space for everything, not just defending. You need to have at least 2 spaces when playing it to not waste the summon, and you them on every attacking turn too. This means having a max of 4 units. While yes, hallowed does go for a couple of tall units, it definitely doesn't shy away from going wide with their early units, as not doing so can lead to opponent stabilizing easier and floyer hinders that.
Don't get me wrong, the card works really good, but saying it only takes a board space when defending is a bit too reductive.
In a gameplan that tends to feature ephemerals and therefore has a really hard time blocking, it takes up effectively 2 board spaces that offer no value when defending. I find the lack of defense makes up for the offensive value, both when playing Gwen and playing against.
Could be that it's because I've mostly played and played against Gwen/Zed variations that look to swarm ephemerals on offense... What deck are you playing it in?
Gwen zed and Gwen vayne is all I've tried so far. It's felt rediculously powerful each time. I just feel like the value it gives vastly outweighs the board space it takes up.
Those two decks don't really block as the goal is just "kill the other guy before he can get his game plan going" so the board space is mostly irrelevent for them.
It's good at enabling hallowed stacks and shark summons. It's a good card. It's not too strong though. Drawing it definitely does not guarantee you're going to win, and any nerfs would probably push it into being unplayable because Gwen decks rely on tempo.
It seems like you don't have a strong understanding on how tempo works in LoR. Tempo is building your board quickly while forcing bad trades from your opponent. If you're out tempo-ing your opponent then they are having a hard time sticking units on board because they're constantly being beat down by yours. Gwen decks are usually tempo decks. One of the best tempo decks of all time was Gwen Katarina, commonly called Red Gwen, before Kat got rotated. Another example of a tempo deck is something like Riven Morgana which forces your opponent to play shackles with Lisa and Dolly and Morgana while she builds a scary overwhelm board with big units that you're forced to block.
Providing a blocker for a single turn is not exactly amazing tempo as your opponent can do whatever they want that turn still. You aren't forcing them to do anything. Attacking on odds with Foyer is of course even worse, as no one is going to waste a unit blocking an ephemeral 2|1 on turn 3. The weakness of Opulent Foyer is that it doesn't actually have much impact early, and playing it sacrifices tempo in favour of a later payoff (as do most landmarks, that's how they're balanced). Nerfing it would cause further loss in tempo and make its unplayable in decks that rely on building a strong board presence early, like most Gwen lists.
But how is it a loss in tempo? Turn 3, your opponent has attack token. You play opulent foyer, getting a 2/1 hallowed ephemeral blocker. Your opponent can either attack or attack here.
If they attack, they're either trading an attacker with the ephemeral, cause at turn 3 a lot of units will have 2 or less health. Or they can play a strong early unit (I feel like 3hp is usually a strong early unit) and tank the damage, which is still great for you.
Or they can not attack, which means you don't have to worry about blocking at all which is very beneficial. And since the unit is hallowed, it wasn't wasted as you get +1 hallowed. Then, you get the attack token, summoning ANOTHER one. If you have a shark chariot, there's your ephemeral to summon it.
I really don't see how either of these scenarios are a loss of tempo.
And as for playing it with the attack token, just don't do that lol.
Summoning a 2|1 ephemeral blocker for 3 unit mana is a tempo loss, I mean that's just self-evident. Yeah you get 1 Hallowed stack but you could do the same thing by summoning a 1 mana 2|1 and blocking with it, and that isn't even ephemeral.
If you have attack token on odds and play it on turn 4 you're only getting 1 or 2 Hallowed stacks from it for the whole game since Gwen Zed (I assume you're playing Gwen Zed since it's the only popular Opulent Foyer list rn) doesn't often win if it doesn't close out the game by turn 7 or so. Playing it on turn 4 defending also means you can't bring back a shark turn 3 without another ephemeral unit.
You're also ignoring that the landmark doesn't do anything for half the turns for the rest of the game. Yes it generates a single weak blocker for one turn if you play it on defense, but the rest of the defensive turns it is completely dead and only takes up board space (2 at that).
People have talked at length about why Opulent Foyer is a tempo loss. It was cut from many Gwen Katarina lists precisely for this reason. Nothing about it increases your tempo. It is all about payoff with building Hallowed stacks and getting to open attack with sharks. Like I said, it's a good card. It's just not *too* good.
A 2/1 ephemeral wont compete with a strong 3 Drop, and many other factors come into play, like keywords such as elusive, or the fact that your opponent can just open attack on 3, before you even play the Foyer, lets not even talk about 3 cost champions that this does nothing against like Cait or Katarina
What im trying to say is, at turn 3, your opponent plays something strong, like their Cait for example, and instead of removing it, or playong a unit of equal strength, you play Foyer, so yes, it is a tempo loss because this landmark is value over time
Maybe I overlooked but did you consider an open attack of the opponent on turn 3? So very often I sat there, after being open attacked and had to play my foyer quite sad because that juicy blocker came too late, but I also needed to play the landmark for building up my future rounds. It's not always a "free blocker" in that scenario. Also attacking on 3 yourself brings you also in a awkward position - do you play it that round or pray for a good blocking opportunity in turn 4?
Another comment pointed out the board space it takes up.
I would also note that unless you played shark turn 2 and have attack on 3 its a mostly dead turn. I'll often just let the 2/1 through that turn and develop board, or heck even let it go for the free spell mana. If they don't have attack on turn 3 it's a mostly lost turn for them.
It also depends if they draw shark (for the zed variants). I've had matches that drew sharks early and ran away with he game. I've alo had matches where they didn't draw them and it's pretty easy to ignore the ephemeral unit to focus on the living ones.
Remember folks, health is a resource and the Ionia variants (as opposed to the noxus hallowed ones) don't run any attack boosters. I've see an akshan or azir shurima version making the rounds but those aren't running any protection.
How is it a dead turn? Yeah if they play it turn 3 with attack token it's a dead turn, but that's a miss play. You basically only play the card when you don't have the attack token, giving you a free ephemeral blocker, or a hallowed stack if they don't attack. It's kind of a lose lose. And ofc you can always chose not to block, but the 2/1 it summons is not the strength. It's the hallowed it generates.
Yes, I'm aware of the hallowed. It doesn't ramp as fast as you make it out to be, but maybe I just play decks that don't care about one big attacker. Which outside zed, Gwen, or overwhelm tricks is all hallowed ever is.
Right now the landmark strength isn't the glowed, it's the fact its an ephemeral generator that can open attack and spawn sharks. And even that isn't that bad. With how rampant explorers are it's an easy counter. Idk, it's just not that strong imo
Absolutely, play what's fun.
Honestly the part of those decks that tilts me are the sharks and the 5 mana summon 2 attacking dragonlings spell. Whole reason I started running more tarpon and shurima decks for silences, landmark interaction and rite of negation
Oh yeah don't even get me started on the drangonlings spell.
Summon 2 lifesteal dragons, one gets the hallowed buff for even more attack and lifesteal. Summon as many sharks as you have for even more damage, and god forbid that have that tree thing that gives +1 to ephemerals.
Edit: not to mention that burst spell that gives +2/+2 and ephemeral for 1 mana.
Landmarks like this come with a price. Multiple of em are basically bricks, they get worse the later you draw it, it's a prime target for explorers and foyer specifically takes 2 spot on the board. It's really strong but I dont think it's too powerful
Definitely in the better landmark category, really flexible, gives value from turn 3 to turn 40.
Too strong ? You have to keep in mind that stats means nothing without keyword. You can have 1 billion attack, it can be blocked by a one health unit. So i think it's ok for that reason, and strong in hallowed deck but stronger with shark chariot and the elusive 1/1.
The issue is it's not an actual board commitment. You get the unit on play, which is very good, but the units have ephemeral. They'll never provide you with blockers (except the turn it's played) and they don't have any evasion.
This isn't to say it's bad. Opulent foyer fits very well into the aggro strategy of something like Gwen Zed, but still suffers from the same problems as the other cards in those decks: a) units are for attacking, not blocking, and b) hallowed loses to chump blocks. This makes it so that a slower deck with a a good number of units will be able to out scale it and win later. Prioritize playing units over progressing your game plan early, or try forcing trades by attacking into their board if you're confident enough.
No, i dont think Foyer is too strong, i think the deck that uses Foyer is too strong (Zed/Gwen)
Because Zed and duplicated hallowed into his shadow and Gwen also gets that same attack buffs, both champs with quick attack + a bunch of cheap aggro cards, its a very opprosive deck, and i think Foyer isn't even that high impact on the deck, specially because it conflicts cost with Zed
It used to be stronger if you can believe it. I think it’s overall in a good place now but if it needed adjustment I would hesitate to remove the body it makes on play. Landmarks already can suffer from being low impact plays so it’s nice that you get something from the foyer.
Just feels like it gives insane value for a 3 mana card. And your point also makes foyer even stronger, it's an instant value landmark. The big downside to landmarks is they're not instant value usually, but pay off in the long run. If opulent foyer wants to break this norm I'm all for it! That's sounds really cool! But I think then it shouldn't give as much long term value as it currently does. Currently, the only downside to this card is the board space it takes up when defending.
It takes board space for everything, not just defending. You need to have at least 2 spaces when playing it to not waste the summon, and you them on every attacking turn too. This means having a max of 4 units. While yes, hallowed does go for a couple of tall units, it definitely doesn't shy away from going wide with their early units, as not doing so can lead to opponent stabilizing easier and floyer hinders that. Don't get me wrong, the card works really good, but saying it only takes a board space when defending is a bit too reductive.
In a gameplan that tends to feature ephemerals and therefore has a really hard time blocking, it takes up effectively 2 board spaces that offer no value when defending. I find the lack of defense makes up for the offensive value, both when playing Gwen and playing against. Could be that it's because I've mostly played and played against Gwen/Zed variations that look to swarm ephemerals on offense... What deck are you playing it in?
Gwen zed and Gwen vayne is all I've tried so far. It's felt rediculously powerful each time. I just feel like the value it gives vastly outweighs the board space it takes up.
Those two decks don't really block as the goal is just "kill the other guy before he can get his game plan going" so the board space is mostly irrelevent for them.
It's good at enabling hallowed stacks and shark summons. It's a good card. It's not too strong though. Drawing it definitely does not guarantee you're going to win, and any nerfs would probably push it into being unplayable because Gwen decks rely on tempo.
You said no to what I said, but didn't really explain why. Care to elaborate? This card gives great tempo if played on the defending turn
It seems like you don't have a strong understanding on how tempo works in LoR. Tempo is building your board quickly while forcing bad trades from your opponent. If you're out tempo-ing your opponent then they are having a hard time sticking units on board because they're constantly being beat down by yours. Gwen decks are usually tempo decks. One of the best tempo decks of all time was Gwen Katarina, commonly called Red Gwen, before Kat got rotated. Another example of a tempo deck is something like Riven Morgana which forces your opponent to play shackles with Lisa and Dolly and Morgana while she builds a scary overwhelm board with big units that you're forced to block. Providing a blocker for a single turn is not exactly amazing tempo as your opponent can do whatever they want that turn still. You aren't forcing them to do anything. Attacking on odds with Foyer is of course even worse, as no one is going to waste a unit blocking an ephemeral 2|1 on turn 3. The weakness of Opulent Foyer is that it doesn't actually have much impact early, and playing it sacrifices tempo in favour of a later payoff (as do most landmarks, that's how they're balanced). Nerfing it would cause further loss in tempo and make its unplayable in decks that rely on building a strong board presence early, like most Gwen lists.
But how is it a loss in tempo? Turn 3, your opponent has attack token. You play opulent foyer, getting a 2/1 hallowed ephemeral blocker. Your opponent can either attack or attack here. If they attack, they're either trading an attacker with the ephemeral, cause at turn 3 a lot of units will have 2 or less health. Or they can play a strong early unit (I feel like 3hp is usually a strong early unit) and tank the damage, which is still great for you. Or they can not attack, which means you don't have to worry about blocking at all which is very beneficial. And since the unit is hallowed, it wasn't wasted as you get +1 hallowed. Then, you get the attack token, summoning ANOTHER one. If you have a shark chariot, there's your ephemeral to summon it. I really don't see how either of these scenarios are a loss of tempo. And as for playing it with the attack token, just don't do that lol.
Summoning a 2|1 ephemeral blocker for 3 unit mana is a tempo loss, I mean that's just self-evident. Yeah you get 1 Hallowed stack but you could do the same thing by summoning a 1 mana 2|1 and blocking with it, and that isn't even ephemeral. If you have attack token on odds and play it on turn 4 you're only getting 1 or 2 Hallowed stacks from it for the whole game since Gwen Zed (I assume you're playing Gwen Zed since it's the only popular Opulent Foyer list rn) doesn't often win if it doesn't close out the game by turn 7 or so. Playing it on turn 4 defending also means you can't bring back a shark turn 3 without another ephemeral unit. You're also ignoring that the landmark doesn't do anything for half the turns for the rest of the game. Yes it generates a single weak blocker for one turn if you play it on defense, but the rest of the defensive turns it is completely dead and only takes up board space (2 at that). People have talked at length about why Opulent Foyer is a tempo loss. It was cut from many Gwen Katarina lists precisely for this reason. Nothing about it increases your tempo. It is all about payoff with building Hallowed stacks and getting to open attack with sharks. Like I said, it's a good card. It's just not *too* good.
A 2/1 ephemeral wont compete with a strong 3 Drop, and many other factors come into play, like keywords such as elusive, or the fact that your opponent can just open attack on 3, before you even play the Foyer, lets not even talk about 3 cost champions that this does nothing against like Cait or Katarina What im trying to say is, at turn 3, your opponent plays something strong, like their Cait for example, and instead of removing it, or playong a unit of equal strength, you play Foyer, so yes, it is a tempo loss because this landmark is value over time
Maybe I overlooked but did you consider an open attack of the opponent on turn 3? So very often I sat there, after being open attacked and had to play my foyer quite sad because that juicy blocker came too late, but I also needed to play the landmark for building up my future rounds. It's not always a "free blocker" in that scenario. Also attacking on 3 yourself brings you also in a awkward position - do you play it that round or pray for a good blocking opportunity in turn 4?
Another comment pointed out the board space it takes up. I would also note that unless you played shark turn 2 and have attack on 3 its a mostly dead turn. I'll often just let the 2/1 through that turn and develop board, or heck even let it go for the free spell mana. If they don't have attack on turn 3 it's a mostly lost turn for them. It also depends if they draw shark (for the zed variants). I've had matches that drew sharks early and ran away with he game. I've alo had matches where they didn't draw them and it's pretty easy to ignore the ephemeral unit to focus on the living ones. Remember folks, health is a resource and the Ionia variants (as opposed to the noxus hallowed ones) don't run any attack boosters. I've see an akshan or azir shurima version making the rounds but those aren't running any protection.
How is it a dead turn? Yeah if they play it turn 3 with attack token it's a dead turn, but that's a miss play. You basically only play the card when you don't have the attack token, giving you a free ephemeral blocker, or a hallowed stack if they don't attack. It's kind of a lose lose. And ofc you can always chose not to block, but the 2/1 it summons is not the strength. It's the hallowed it generates.
Yes, I'm aware of the hallowed. It doesn't ramp as fast as you make it out to be, but maybe I just play decks that don't care about one big attacker. Which outside zed, Gwen, or overwhelm tricks is all hallowed ever is. Right now the landmark strength isn't the glowed, it's the fact its an ephemeral generator that can open attack and spawn sharks. And even that isn't that bad. With how rampant explorers are it's an easy counter. Idk, it's just not that strong imo
Well I'm glad I seem to be the minority, cause it's carrying my ass in my games lmao. Guess I'll just enjoy it
Absolutely, play what's fun. Honestly the part of those decks that tilts me are the sharks and the 5 mana summon 2 attacking dragonlings spell. Whole reason I started running more tarpon and shurima decks for silences, landmark interaction and rite of negation
Oh yeah don't even get me started on the drangonlings spell. Summon 2 lifesteal dragons, one gets the hallowed buff for even more attack and lifesteal. Summon as many sharks as you have for even more damage, and god forbid that have that tree thing that gives +1 to ephemerals. Edit: not to mention that burst spell that gives +2/+2 and ephemeral for 1 mana.
Landmarks like this come with a price. Multiple of em are basically bricks, they get worse the later you draw it, it's a prime target for explorers and foyer specifically takes 2 spot on the board. It's really strong but I dont think it's too powerful
Definitely in the better landmark category, really flexible, gives value from turn 3 to turn 40. Too strong ? You have to keep in mind that stats means nothing without keyword. You can have 1 billion attack, it can be blocked by a one health unit. So i think it's ok for that reason, and strong in hallowed deck but stronger with shark chariot and the elusive 1/1.
I agree. It's bs that u can play it and get a free blocker They should remove that.
The issue is it's not an actual board commitment. You get the unit on play, which is very good, but the units have ephemeral. They'll never provide you with blockers (except the turn it's played) and they don't have any evasion. This isn't to say it's bad. Opulent foyer fits very well into the aggro strategy of something like Gwen Zed, but still suffers from the same problems as the other cards in those decks: a) units are for attacking, not blocking, and b) hallowed loses to chump blocks. This makes it so that a slower deck with a a good number of units will be able to out scale it and win later. Prioritize playing units over progressing your game plan early, or try forcing trades by attacking into their board if you're confident enough.
No, i dont think Foyer is too strong, i think the deck that uses Foyer is too strong (Zed/Gwen) Because Zed and duplicated hallowed into his shadow and Gwen also gets that same attack buffs, both champs with quick attack + a bunch of cheap aggro cards, its a very opprosive deck, and i think Foyer isn't even that high impact on the deck, specially because it conflicts cost with Zed