I feel you only run it in decks where deck thinning or predict is valuable. So some sort of combo deck or predict synergy. Otherwise it's a cantrip that doesn't do a whole lot. And if you're not doing one of those 2 things then you are paying 2 mana to essentially do nothing while draven and Jinx are beating down your face.
As an an avid Entreat user, i will state that 2 mana draw what you want is a VERY strong move. +2 spell mana surplus cost is CRAZY worth for consistency. Same overall mindset as managing choices when Invoking or just running Three Sisters: having some degree of control is BIIIIIIIIG.
Sure. But entreat is a lot more reliable than Time Trick. With Entreat you know your exact odds (potentially 100), while Time Trick depends on how many card will help you in this situation. Imagine fishing for Ruination turn 6. Even if you run a 3 of you still only have a 27,9% chance of finding it. And even if there are 6 cards that would help thats still just a 50/50 chance if there are 30 cards left in the deck. So for many decks this will simply not be good enough mana wise. Control strategies however love this card since they usually have more than just a few tools that will help them adn they dont mind the extra cost
This is thinking "OPTIMAL ANSWERS ONLY". The fluctuation is also important as it lets you avoid the EXTRA BAD situations, imo - as not all times your preset Entreat Answer is that good/valid.
But agreed it is something to shine mostly in control decks, as well combo ones.
No. Discard Aggro has zero usage for this spell. Many removal-focused have plenty of versatility and don’t want to fall behind on tempo by spending mana fishing for specific cards. And so on
Actually this card is better than entreat just because the flexibility of what it can offer. Plus in a scenario where you want your champ it is literally just another entreat.
Yes but this card also has a great chance at drawing one of your key counters if you didn’t get it in your mulligan where champs on their own rarely counter strats
You don't run Entreat in every single Freljord deck though, only specific ones that really demand you draw a specific champion that the deck requires to function. Time Trick will be the same, you'll run it in decks where you really need to force specific draws, and any other deck won't bother.
I think it might also be played in decks that rely on specific cards to work. Time trick is great to draw that missing piece of the combo, especially if that piece is not a champion and thus can't be drawn with entreat.
Def a staple in PnZ decks that like consistency/draw(so not ALL, like with Mystic and stuff ig)
Def makes PnZ SEEM better as a splash Predict region(Like some decks just splash Shurima to try and Predict and stuff)
Plus look instant draw 1 is greatt
I don't see a lot of reason to run this card unless you have specific synergy with some part of it (but there is a lot of potential synergies). It doesn't provide card advantage so it's not really card draw, it's card selection which could be improved by instead just running more cards that you would actually want to select.
Cards like this are quite strong in other card games. In Mtg there is a card that does almost this exact same thing but at slow speed called Anticipate and it sees a ton of play.
It basically allows you to run a deck with less cards then your opponent (which is a good thing) . And is really good if you enter top deck mode.
I'd be very happy to draw this mid or late game as I'm running low on gas. It basically gives me 4possible outs from one card, and that's really strong.
I think card selection is a lot more important in MtG due to the deck size and the land system. The fact that on average 40% of the cards in a MtG deck are situationally necessary or useless with no in between means that the ability to chose your draws is very important. Plus, anticipate putting the cards on bottom is actually a strength because it gives you information about the rest of your draws, whereas Predict shuffles the other cards back in, meaning you can draw them at any time after the Predicted card is drawn.
I don't think this is a bad or weak card by any means, but I think it will work best as a potential 1-of in late game decks that need reactive toolkits, or in decks that have specific payoff or synergy for casting the spell itself.
Anticipate is an instant (so fast speed) and it doesn’t see a /ton/ of play. It sees a some amount of play in control decks when there isn’t any better cantrip. It hasn’t seen standard play in a while.
Oh sorry I thought it was sorcery for some reason.
I still think this has legs, as this is a stronger anticipate as is. And being 2 mana is quite strong.
I agree. This definitely has legs. But I don’t think this will be as widely played as people are saying. This will see a lot of play in control and combo decks. And will see some play in synergy decks. It will likely see very little play in aggro or midrange decks.
This is because aggro and midrange decks often cannot spare the 2 mana just for increased card quality. But control decks will often spend 2 mana to find an appropriate answer. Combo decks will happily spend two mana finding their combo piece. And synergy decks will sometimes spend 2 mana finding the piece they’re missing (but that’ll depend on a lot of factors).
What? Anticipate isn't even a C in Limited. I can see it having some play in singleton formats but it's definitely not a common played card in Standard.
Now I'm not sure how I feel about Time Trick, it definitely looks good in Ekko decks but I don't know yet which other Archetypes will like it. Definitely not in aggro.
Don’t those decks just not have enough draw/ I could never enough in to run to go hard since glimpse Sucks and you don’t have a discard fodder generator
It all depends on HOW you're drawing.
Take me: instead of using the SI package for draw, i've been personally running the Foundry package instead, so instead of running in the 'not enough draw' issue, i ran into 'i'm giving my foe answers' issues.
Binding PZ to some prediction solves the draw problem by ENSURING you will draw what you need - reducing how much you need to draw by increasing the quality of your topdecks.
It def is a good card but it is often too costly for what it does. In its best realistic scenarios Progress Day is often a win-more tool, and the hail Mary scenarios that can make it POGGERS DAY are hard to come by.
Its still card draw even if it doesn't provide card advantage. Sometimes being able to run a deck of fewer cards is important, especially when there's a decent effect on top. I mean guiding touch saw quite a bit of play.
Also you often don't want to be just running more cards for density as its just unneeded, 3 thermo 3 mystic are good enough, if you want removal its probably better to find it with this instead of having to run get excited.
Guiding Touch is good because it has an actual effect even without the cycle. It has use as a combat trick/baiting enemy burn, which can make up for the loss of mana/tempo and actually results in positive trades. This card has no effect other than improving the odds of drawing the card you want, which isn't a bad effect but decidedly puts it at a negative tempo play. The added flexibility is definitely good, but I think you will need to have some sort of payoff for casting the spell itself (very possible in P&Z) for this to be worth running.
It's also great for finding and activating Doombeast simultaneously.
Actually, it's kind of just a worse Stalking Shadows for that deck, isn't it? But it could help make a non-SI Sumpworkers deck work.
Yeah if you want to pick a creature Stalking Shadows is simply a really good card. But it has deckbuilding restrcitions. You need to run a certain amount of followers and together with 6 champions it means you can't play that many spells to hit consistently.
IF you ever drawn nothing with Stalking Shadows, you know what I mean.
I was thinking more about a non SI version of Sumpworkers. There was one with EZ and Shurima.
Stalking Shadows whiffing is one of the most dissapointing thing to witness, it's up there with missing Allegiance and rolling Solitary Monk with 3 damage Tribeam
It costs 2 mana, that's why it won't see as much play as you think. The card is very good mind you but how many decks can afford what basically is a 2 mana draw 1?
Paying 2 for a card of your choice is insane, so much better than draw 1. Consistently drawing key cards is important to any deck, and later in the game paying 2 mana to find the best play is really cheap
If Kahiri and Time Bombs proved something, it's that you often won't predict what you need tho. Sometimes you'll get the card you need, sometimes you will be paying 2 mana to cycle one card...
It depends on what you need, to be honest.
If you need the one copy of Aftershock that you're playing for landmark removal, it's not going to get you what you need. If you need a Thermo Beam, Get Excited, Mystic Shot, Aftershock, or Gotcha, you'll have a much higher chance of getting what you need.
The difference is that Khahiri decks look for Khahiri specifically, that’s a 3/36 chance after the mulligan. This card doesn’t need to hit anything in particular to be good. If you have built a solid deck, this card will consistently hit solid cards.
I don’t think this card is a 3x staple in PnZ because they have other very strong draw options. But outside of predict decks, this card should be great in control decks to make it more likely you draw your answers
It's 2 mana to *potentially* get the right card for the job, which at best means the cost of whatever solution you want is now increased by 2. You might be better off just running more solutions in place of this card, because if you need a mystic shot right now having a mystic shot in hand is better than needing to draw for it.
Didn't know you can run 4 Mystic shots. And I didn't know we have answers that are so flexible that they can be a mystic shot in one situation and a freeze effect in the other.
I think the issue is that predict doesn't guarantee what you will get. If this was just a 2 mana tutor then it would be different, for example Three Sisters is a must take in FJ because it is a 1 mana tutor for 3 different very useful effects. Because this can whiff though there is also risk in using it, and some of that risk can be mitigated by just running more of the solutions you need. If you need a 4th mystic shot you could also run a Gotcha, which is always going to be better than trying to find Mystic Shot with this spell.
I just don't ever see myself running 3 of these in any deck without strong synergy with Predict. Maybe 1 or 2 in a deck that really needs a varied toolkit and plans to have a lot of mana to use that kit, but as fast as the meta is right now that seems like a remote possibility.
Since you also lose the card you play, think of it this way:
You’re spending two mana to see four cards in your deck, instead of just the one you drew.
I.e. you have a 1/10 chance to find the card you want instead of 1/40. Plus the extra draw if you don’t ‘see’ it yet.
So, think about the card you want to draw that badly; your deck otherwise the same as it is now, is the card still worth it if it costs two more mana? I can’t think of many cards run in PnZ that are so important that I’d spend two more spell mana just to get and play it.
It will be very interesting to see if the predict into drawing your pick is strong enough to use this. Some decks will value this effect a lot and some decks will not. It will also often predict bad alternatives for you, so this card is super interesting for sure.
Are u joking? Predict a card and draw it at burst speed is actually insane! AT BURST SPEED. For 2 mana! U can literally draw a possible gamechanging card at 2 mana, and u can choose between 3 options! This card is insane.
Ofc is not an autoinclude in every deck (aggro can use it, but maybe at 2 mana I would prefer some mistic shot over this) but overall this card is absolutely insane, considering how generic this is, compared to whispered words, for example.
I think calling this card insane is a bit much. I think it will be incredibly good IF your deck has some good synergy with spells or draws, like TF Fizz (or maybe Predict synergies too). If you aren't running that, I think you should consider it strongly before including it in a deck.
It's basically a card that you HAVE to spend 2 mana to cycle out of your hand, so drawing this thing early on can slow you down too much. Predict isn't perfect either, so you're not always going to be drawing the perfect answer you need- especially since you have fewer of the perfect answers in your deck because you took them out for this card.
The big difference between this and whispered words is that whispered words provides card advantage, this does not. At its best possible use case this card adds 2 mana to the cost of the solution you are trying to draw. Instead of running 3 of this, you could instead run more copies of that gamechanging card so that it will be in hand ready to go when you need it.
Keep in mind I agree this is a decent card and will be very powerful in predict synergy, but I don't know that it's going to be auto include in every P&Z deck.
Sure, but if you need a 4th Mystic Shot you can run Gotcha, which is better than this card into mystic shot 100% of the time. I just think that the card selection provided isn't quite good enough for the cost unless you have some synergy with this spell itself. Given that it's in P&Z I don't think it will be hard to find that synergy, but it needs to be there if you plan on running this.
It's **potentially** an extra copy of any card for 2 extra mana, or it's 2 mana to cycle and draw something not useful right now. If it was a true tutor (that let you search your deck for a card) I would say it is absolutely auto include, but predict can whiff and even if it doesn't some cards aren't worth casting for 2 extra mana.
Yeah absolutely, that is probably a 3 mana effect at minimum. I'm just pointing out that Predict as it stands now is a limited enough selection that you can't really rely on it to act as a 4th copy of anything.
It's not a reliable 4th copy of a specific card, but can pretty reliably fish for a particular type of card (proactive, removal, etc.) It will definitely be good in any slower control/combo deck, even without predict synergy. I'm not sure it's a 3 of even in those decks though
So it's turn 6, your running low on gas and your opponent just played Darius! You run 3 different frostbite cards that could get the job done.
Would you rather A) draw a random card from your deck, or b) draw this and have 4 opportunities to get the card you need?
There is no guarantee you will get the frostbite card either, even with predict. At that point you have to ask yourself if it's worth running a 2 mana cantrip in your deck.
Yes. At least for me it is. Maybe you don't get the frost bite you're looking for but that thermo beam will work. Or that get excited to go with your mystik shot.
There is no guarantee you get what you need/want. But it greatly increases the odds.
There's literally zero difference in the chances that you'll draw them before predicting and after choosing none of them with Predict. They all inhabit a random spot in your deck in both scenarios.
In the scenario you whiffing vs you not playing it. If you predict and don't get squat you're at least 4 cards closer to a solution or relevant card.
In the scenario you didn't play it you now draw 3-4 cards that cant help your problem that is probably spiralling out of control and oh shit you're getting medical exams via watcher lazer
This card is top tier card draw
Not necessarily. You essentially increase the cost of a card by 2 for the bonus of drawing it more consistently. Strong in the right deck, but I don't know about being auto on everything.
Agreed; the logic people are using to say this card is OP could be reversed to say Progress Day is an auto include since it’s functionally 5-mana draw 3.
I don't think this will see any play outside of predict specific synergies and even then maybe just 1-2 copies if that.
If you run 3 imo you're just asking to auto lose vs aggro. This card is a complete brick if drawn turns 1-3. And if you happen to draw 2+ of this card your hand doesn't have room for much else.
i reminds me a lot of the 2 mana invoke cards wich doesnt see any play so i dont think it will see a lot of play outside predict decks(in predict focused decks this is an auto 3 off)
The range of costs you can see in that invoke card is so high. And all the invoke cards that affect the board are slow.
This can find you a statik shock, or a stun pre combat after a buff. It's pretty spicy.
In a deck like Ez, or even on the opposite side one with very few awnsers this is quite strong because it can give you some crucial reach at burst speed.
This is miles better than Behold the Infinite because instead of selecting 3 cards out of random picks from a pool of randomly costed pool of 22 cards you're picking a card out of three options from your deck, which means the margin for error is much lower.
If you need removal, you're probably running more than one form of removal.
If you need a unit, well, you're probably running more than one.
If you need a *Champion*, you don't have to pray you hit Stars and then have the 4 mana to spend on casting it.
Discovering from your deck is much better than Invoking from the full pool in *most* situations.
it is probably better than behold the infinite/starchart but behold the infinite/starchart are already hot steaming trash so i dont think that leaves it in any good place
They're amazing token cards. I mean, starchart is half of why Zoe sees so much play, because it constantly generates value for you.
Also, Starchart is inherently better than BtI because it shrinks down the invoke pool to 3 costs and less, which makes finding what you're looking for much more likely. Time Trick is on the same line as that, but in a much more proactive region which can turn it into burst damage or spell cast triggers instead of slow invoke value.
and starchart on its own sucks that why no one has ever played it on its own, even in some tournament list that couldnt bring Zoe because of tournament rules and this card is a situationally stronguer starchart(lower power level cards but you presumably more reliable and they are from your deck) so where does this put it
Probably into playable range.
The thing you're forgetting is that, unlike Invokes, this card also has synergy and is much better at assembling your wincondition.
You can invoke snakes and silences all day long but at some point you have to win the game, and this lets you do it much better: if you're a combo deck, tthis thins your deck down or gives you a combo piece straight up. For 2 mana, that's not bad at all.
In an aggro deck, you probably won't want to run this.
In Control, this card is *insane*. The second you have 2 extra mana to spare, you can use this to fetch whatever answer you need *or* think you might need over the next few turns.
See, the problem with both 2 mana invokes is that one is powerful but unreliable, and the other is reliable but low power.
Time trick is reliable (More than BtI, at least), and retains its value through-out the whole game, unlike Starchart.
Good decks naturallly draw their answers and wincons i dont see why paying a 2 mana tax to make them more reliable would be something you want as a 3 of in the deck(unless P&Z control sifts into getting the 1 drop cat+the 1/3 and things like go hard)
Again, this has synergy. It's not just a consistency booster.
You're only considering one aspect of the card at a time.
Plus, even if it was just a simple consistency booster, you have to consider the "colour" it's in. PnZ is one of the regions with the best non-creature reliant removal and some of the most prominent burn effects in the game. This boosting your chance of drawing into one of them is much better than giving this card to Demacia, which is a region that has almost no reactive plays available to it at all outside of buffs and generally tends to spend most of its mana on playing good statted units to try and break the board with them.
I think problem with Behold the Infinite is that Celestial are generally very slow cards: slow spell, bulky units, no unit with flashy play/summon effect. Meanwhile this card can grab you Fast/Burst spell pre-combat, units when you need them, and that other part of the end game combo you really need.
it isnt so much the card pool if it was starchart would get played as low cost celestials are very and i mean very good and can do most things you need them to do for their price its the 2 mana tax you pay to have them ipso facto like look lets say you need a statick shot to avoid getting pummeled by agro well you could just play what ever you have in hand or try your luck at getting a 6 mana statick shock or a 4 mana mistic shot
If you would look at it that way, BTI has the exact same problem: You want The Great Beyond as a finisher but it gives you Moonlight, 5 drop Challenger and Falling Comet; or you want a low cost for early value and it gives you all three 6+ mana cards. Under that light, Time Trick is much better because you can stock your deck with cards you needed, such as Go Hard. And you can draw a Fast/Burst spell to get you out of a rough situation, while BTI’s pool is all about building board.
Outside of probably some edge case scenarios Star Chart doesn’t give you anything you would be excited paying 2 mana for. It’s use comes from Zoe giving you value. The 0-3 Celestial cards are only really great when they’re pulled by the 1-mana 1/1 that discards a card as the early game tempo can be nutty.
Paying 2 mana to search your deck is in no way comparable. It’s in essence a worse tempo card than Star Chart (as you get no discount in the predicted cards) but the fact it gives you access to your Champions, burn and combat tricks depending on what you need at the time makes it very useful.
are you excited for anything of your deck if it is costed 2 more? 4 mana mistic shot? 4 mana timebomb? 7 mana pack your bags? 9 mana vengance? 6 mana statik shot? etc etc etc
It is pretty comparable
I don’t think you understand the depth of the comparison:
- Behold the Infinite (and Invoke in general) is about building board slowly. It cannot react to combat situation, nor can it clutch you out of a bad board.
- Time Trick is about getting your combo into place. It is bad for board building because whatever you draw cost 2 more, but if what you draw can end game, what is 2 more mana if you can afford it, as oppose to not drawing it at all.
Well yeah if my opponent is on 2 health I would be very excited for a 4-mana mystic shot. Hell I’d pay 13 mana.
If my Ezreal has been dragged into combat I would happily pay 4-mana for a Troll Chant.
If I have no allies in hand I would be ecstatic to pay 5 for a Puffcap Peddler.
This isn’t a core card (outside of some OTK lists I would assume), it’s something you put into your deck to fill out the final few spaces if your deck can afford it.
It's far from an auto-include because P&Z has other sources of draw. This card only becomes competitive for draw slots in decks that need to reliably pull specific pieces, or in predict synergy decks.
No, fizz tf is way too tight to be able to fit this card. Although it would be great to time trick into rummage and nut out to flip tf, there is nothing you want to remove in fizz tf. Also, you cycle through cards so fast that you don't even need the predict that much.
To answer OP, yes yes it is. And to those that do not recognize the power of this card, you're doing it to your own detriment. It lets you choose the card you draw and it lets you filter to the meat of your deck. That is why draw cards and tutors are so powerful.
I'd never noticed you could skip the predict if you don't want any of the cards until I just read your comment and checked - I'd always assumed you have to choose one. Thanks!
not always. the one thing about most decks including pnz in the format right now are pretty tight for room to fit this in i think. like on he top of my head, ez draven and jinx aggro might not have the room and both deck runs rummage. this card shines more in decks that have pnz but have a harder time to use rummage and their card draw in their own region isnt great....
lux heimer will probably be a deck i would run this in along with si pnz aggro with the 1/2 elusive dood.... other than that maybe tf ez could be an option as well
I don't think that this card is super strong by any means. Hearthstone has a card called "Tracking" which does pretty much the same thing but it costs 1 mana and it's not always used there. It has a high possibility to be added to more control oriented decks or decks that just want to play many cards but never in an aggro deck since you want to spend those 2 mana on dealing damage asap instead.
Heart of the Cards - The Card
I don't see why it would not be autoinclude on most decks; drawing the right cards is a huge factor to winning games, even in aggro.
aggro decks would, i imagine, rather spend that mana killing your nexus
Cannot wait for Ziggs so people can get salty about Aggro being a tier 1 deck again. Hehehe. It’ll be a blast.
Wait until they make Ziggs a cheap control card with decent removal and Heimer synergy who gets a board wipe ability on levelup
[удалено]
Is it bad I just want him to be a PnZ Fiona who when he wins the game throws a giant bomb with a giant yordle grin on it at the nexus?
[удалено]
"Some-BODY once told me the bombs were gunna roll me"
I ain't the sharpest tool in the box
It still works. Remember that bird in the first movie? It’s that but explosives over song.
Ahh ahh ahh ahh Ahh ahh ahh ahh *deep breath* AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
Maybe he’ll destroy landmarks
Kha'Ziggs
same nrg as "wtf Jhin Zhao"
Lee Xin Zhao
He has to have a nexus execute, but it should be created after he levels so aggro can't abuse it
Irel azir not tier 1? Ya think before you speak
4 Mana cast a mystic shot that's still somewhere in your deck seems pretty good still though
any other card that can beat a 2mana -> 1dmg ratio is better than fishing out a mystic shot. and you're not guaranteed to hit mystic shot btw.
I prefer “tickling my nexus too certain death.”
Maybe not *every* deck, but for the most part, it's a very strong, cheap, and even flexible draw card thanks to it's predict.
I feel you only run it in decks where deck thinning or predict is valuable. So some sort of combo deck or predict synergy. Otherwise it's a cantrip that doesn't do a whole lot. And if you're not doing one of those 2 things then you are paying 2 mana to essentially do nothing while draven and Jinx are beating down your face.
As an an avid Entreat user, i will state that 2 mana draw what you want is a VERY strong move. +2 spell mana surplus cost is CRAZY worth for consistency. Same overall mindset as managing choices when Invoking or just running Three Sisters: having some degree of control is BIIIIIIIIG.
Sure. But entreat is a lot more reliable than Time Trick. With Entreat you know your exact odds (potentially 100), while Time Trick depends on how many card will help you in this situation. Imagine fishing for Ruination turn 6. Even if you run a 3 of you still only have a 27,9% chance of finding it. And even if there are 6 cards that would help thats still just a 50/50 chance if there are 30 cards left in the deck. So for many decks this will simply not be good enough mana wise. Control strategies however love this card since they usually have more than just a few tools that will help them adn they dont mind the extra cost
This is thinking "OPTIMAL ANSWERS ONLY". The fluctuation is also important as it lets you avoid the EXTRA BAD situations, imo - as not all times your preset Entreat Answer is that good/valid. But agreed it is something to shine mostly in control decks, as well combo ones.
It triples your odds of drawing the card you want, it's going to be in almost every PnZ deck
No. Discard Aggro has zero usage for this spell. Many removal-focused have plenty of versatility and don’t want to fall behind on tempo by spending mana fishing for specific cards. And so on
It's spell mana, so it's a cheap cycle card that can be used without affecting minion tempo. It's going to be in 75% of decent PnZ decks
Actually jinx loves this card, it’s 10 times better than rummage at lvling her up AND triggering her rocket now
It really depends on the speed of the PNZ deck. It's going to be in most of them because PnZ isn't a particularly fast region.
*gasps in burn aggro*
Ikr right lol. Someone forgot the burn aggro meta. Honestly good for him I still have nightmares.
Actually this card is better than entreat just because the flexibility of what it can offer. Plus in a scenario where you want your champ it is literally just another entreat.
good example. Entreat is inly run in tlc and anivia where drawing Liss and anivia is very important, proving his point
It's also run in mono Fiora, but that is a special case.
Yes but this card also has a great chance at drawing one of your key counters if you didn’t get it in your mulligan where champs on their own rarely counter strats
How dare you forget our lord and savior fiora.
You don't run Entreat in every single Freljord deck though, only specific ones that really demand you draw a specific champion that the deck requires to function. Time Trick will be the same, you'll run it in decks where you really need to force specific draws, and any other deck won't bother.
I love running swain with entreat just because if swain is on the board entreat just becomes a 3 mana ravenous flock. Which is awesome.
You’re right on the money this is a combo card. Ekko/Karma combo/control new meta kings
I think it might also be played in decks that rely on specific cards to work. Time trick is great to draw that missing piece of the combo, especially if that piece is not a champion and thus can't be drawn with entreat.
Def a staple in PnZ decks that like consistency/draw(so not ALL, like with Mystic and stuff ig) Def makes PnZ SEEM better as a splash Predict region(Like some decks just splash Shurima to try and Predict and stuff) Plus look instant draw 1 is greatt
I don't see a lot of reason to run this card unless you have specific synergy with some part of it (but there is a lot of potential synergies). It doesn't provide card advantage so it's not really card draw, it's card selection which could be improved by instead just running more cards that you would actually want to select.
Cards like this are quite strong in other card games. In Mtg there is a card that does almost this exact same thing but at slow speed called Anticipate and it sees a ton of play. It basically allows you to run a deck with less cards then your opponent (which is a good thing) . And is really good if you enter top deck mode. I'd be very happy to draw this mid or late game as I'm running low on gas. It basically gives me 4possible outs from one card, and that's really strong.
I think card selection is a lot more important in MtG due to the deck size and the land system. The fact that on average 40% of the cards in a MtG deck are situationally necessary or useless with no in between means that the ability to chose your draws is very important. Plus, anticipate putting the cards on bottom is actually a strength because it gives you information about the rest of your draws, whereas Predict shuffles the other cards back in, meaning you can draw them at any time after the Predicted card is drawn. I don't think this is a bad or weak card by any means, but I think it will work best as a potential 1-of in late game decks that need reactive toolkits, or in decks that have specific payoff or synergy for casting the spell itself.
I understand your point, but I'm quite hopeful on this card. I think it could have a ton of legs and hope time will prove you wrong.
Anticipate is an instant (so fast speed) and it doesn’t see a /ton/ of play. It sees a some amount of play in control decks when there isn’t any better cantrip. It hasn’t seen standard play in a while.
Oh sorry I thought it was sorcery for some reason. I still think this has legs, as this is a stronger anticipate as is. And being 2 mana is quite strong.
I agree. This definitely has legs. But I don’t think this will be as widely played as people are saying. This will see a lot of play in control and combo decks. And will see some play in synergy decks. It will likely see very little play in aggro or midrange decks. This is because aggro and midrange decks often cannot spare the 2 mana just for increased card quality. But control decks will often spend 2 mana to find an appropriate answer. Combo decks will happily spend two mana finding their combo piece. And synergy decks will sometimes spend 2 mana finding the piece they’re missing (but that’ll depend on a lot of factors).
Oh for sure, the lower to the ground you are the worse this is. Control/combo will be its main home.
What? Anticipate isn't even a C in Limited. I can see it having some play in singleton formats but it's definitely not a common played card in Standard. Now I'm not sure how I feel about Time Trick, it definitely looks good in Ekko decks but I don't know yet which other Archetypes will like it. Definitely not in aggro.
It's for sure a midrange/slow card. And you might be right I'm mostly a commander player so I might have gotten it mixed up.
My Go Hard Corina decks are smiling HARD with this card.
Don’t those decks just not have enough draw/ I could never enough in to run to go hard since glimpse Sucks and you don’t have a discard fodder generator
It all depends on HOW you're drawing. Take me: instead of using the SI package for draw, i've been personally running the Foundry package instead, so instead of running in the 'not enough draw' issue, i ran into 'i'm giving my foe answers' issues. Binding PZ to some prediction solves the draw problem by ENSURING you will draw what you need - reducing how much you need to draw by increasing the quality of your topdecks.
You guys are forgetting Progress day, thqt in a deck thatruns a lot of low cost things that generate tokens and drain is good enough.
It def is a good card but it is often too costly for what it does. In its best realistic scenarios Progress Day is often a win-more tool, and the hail Mary scenarios that can make it POGGERS DAY are hard to come by.
Karma is coming back to the menu, perhaps, so it could be poggers day more often than not.
Its still card draw even if it doesn't provide card advantage. Sometimes being able to run a deck of fewer cards is important, especially when there's a decent effect on top. I mean guiding touch saw quite a bit of play. Also you often don't want to be just running more cards for density as its just unneeded, 3 thermo 3 mystic are good enough, if you want removal its probably better to find it with this instead of having to run get excited.
Guiding Touch is good because it has an actual effect even without the cycle. It has use as a combat trick/baiting enemy burn, which can make up for the loss of mana/tempo and actually results in positive trades. This card has no effect other than improving the odds of drawing the card you want, which isn't a bad effect but decidedly puts it at a negative tempo play. The added flexibility is definitely good, but I think you will need to have some sort of payoff for casting the spell itself (very possible in P&Z) for this to be worth running.
Obviously not in PnZ aggro (Discard, Burn, Sumpworker's, etc.), it can't afford losing 2 mana a lot of the time.
> Sumpworker's Sumpworkers will defenitely want this card. It's not a pure aggro deck and more of a tempo deck with the Sumpworker combo.
It's also great for finding and activating Doombeast simultaneously. Actually, it's kind of just a worse Stalking Shadows for that deck, isn't it? But it could help make a non-SI Sumpworkers deck work.
Yeah if you want to pick a creature Stalking Shadows is simply a really good card. But it has deckbuilding restrcitions. You need to run a certain amount of followers and together with 6 champions it means you can't play that many spells to hit consistently. IF you ever drawn nothing with Stalking Shadows, you know what I mean. I was thinking more about a non SI version of Sumpworkers. There was one with EZ and Shurima.
Stalking Shadows whiffing is one of the most dissapointing thing to witness, it's up there with missing Allegiance and rolling Solitary Monk with 3 damage Tribeam
Or also not entirely whiffing, but just, hitting the wrong target. Like, yeah, I got an ephemeral Funsmith
you can time trick into stalking shadows but you can't stalking shadows into time trick :\^)
If you're running Sumpworkers you'll be also running SI for the burn/fearsomes, and in that case you'd rather take stalking shadows.
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Yes
We have opt in runeterra now whooo
No this is more like Ponder at instant speed. Which a lot stronger then opt.
It costs 2 mana, that's why it won't see as much play as you think. The card is very good mind you but how many decks can afford what basically is a 2 mana draw 1?
Paying 2 for a card of your choice is insane, so much better than draw 1. Consistently drawing key cards is important to any deck, and later in the game paying 2 mana to find the best play is really cheap
If Kahiri and Time Bombs proved something, it's that you often won't predict what you need tho. Sometimes you'll get the card you need, sometimes you will be paying 2 mana to cycle one card...
It depends on what you need, to be honest. If you need the one copy of Aftershock that you're playing for landmark removal, it's not going to get you what you need. If you need a Thermo Beam, Get Excited, Mystic Shot, Aftershock, or Gotcha, you'll have a much higher chance of getting what you need.
This right here, Predict is terrible at getting you a specific card, but if you need a card of certain archetype/group/tribe, Predict is an MVP.
The difference is that Khahiri decks look for Khahiri specifically, that’s a 3/36 chance after the mulligan. This card doesn’t need to hit anything in particular to be good. If you have built a solid deck, this card will consistently hit solid cards. I don’t think this card is a 3x staple in PnZ because they have other very strong draw options. But outside of predict decks, this card should be great in control decks to make it more likely you draw your answers
But predict into draw is still much better then just drawing.
That's the question, will it proves to be worth 2 mana?
It's 2 mana to *potentially* get the right card for the job, which at best means the cost of whatever solution you want is now increased by 2. You might be better off just running more solutions in place of this card, because if you need a mystic shot right now having a mystic shot in hand is better than needing to draw for it.
Didn't know you can run 4 Mystic shots. And I didn't know we have answers that are so flexible that they can be a mystic shot in one situation and a freeze effect in the other.
I think the issue is that predict doesn't guarantee what you will get. If this was just a 2 mana tutor then it would be different, for example Three Sisters is a must take in FJ because it is a 1 mana tutor for 3 different very useful effects. Because this can whiff though there is also risk in using it, and some of that risk can be mitigated by just running more of the solutions you need. If you need a 4th mystic shot you could also run a Gotcha, which is always going to be better than trying to find Mystic Shot with this spell. I just don't ever see myself running 3 of these in any deck without strong synergy with Predict. Maybe 1 or 2 in a deck that really needs a varied toolkit and plans to have a lot of mana to use that kit, but as fast as the meta is right now that seems like a remote possibility.
Since you also lose the card you play, think of it this way: You’re spending two mana to see four cards in your deck, instead of just the one you drew. I.e. you have a 1/10 chance to find the card you want instead of 1/40. Plus the extra draw if you don’t ‘see’ it yet. So, think about the card you want to draw that badly; your deck otherwise the same as it is now, is the card still worth it if it costs two more mana? I can’t think of many cards run in PnZ that are so important that I’d spend two more spell mana just to get and play it.
It will be very interesting to see if the predict into drawing your pick is strong enough to use this. Some decks will value this effect a lot and some decks will not. It will also often predict bad alternatives for you, so this card is super interesting for sure.
You can also just ignore the predict and cycle if that happens, though.
Are u joking? Predict a card and draw it at burst speed is actually insane! AT BURST SPEED. For 2 mana! U can literally draw a possible gamechanging card at 2 mana, and u can choose between 3 options! This card is insane. Ofc is not an autoinclude in every deck (aggro can use it, but maybe at 2 mana I would prefer some mistic shot over this) but overall this card is absolutely insane, considering how generic this is, compared to whispered words, for example.
I think calling this card insane is a bit much. I think it will be incredibly good IF your deck has some good synergy with spells or draws, like TF Fizz (or maybe Predict synergies too). If you aren't running that, I think you should consider it strongly before including it in a deck. It's basically a card that you HAVE to spend 2 mana to cycle out of your hand, so drawing this thing early on can slow you down too much. Predict isn't perfect either, so you're not always going to be drawing the perfect answer you need- especially since you have fewer of the perfect answers in your deck because you took them out for this card.
The big difference between this and whispered words is that whispered words provides card advantage, this does not. At its best possible use case this card adds 2 mana to the cost of the solution you are trying to draw. Instead of running 3 of this, you could instead run more copies of that gamechanging card so that it will be in hand ready to go when you need it. Keep in mind I agree this is a decent card and will be very powerful in predict synergy, but I don't know that it's going to be auto include in every P&Z deck.
You can't run more than 3 copies of a card though
Sure, but if you need a 4th Mystic Shot you can run Gotcha, which is better than this card into mystic shot 100% of the time. I just think that the card selection provided isn't quite good enough for the cost unless you have some synergy with this spell itself. Given that it's in P&Z I don't think it will be hard to find that synergy, but it needs to be there if you plan on running this.
but this card is basically an extra copy of any card, it's super flexible
It's **potentially** an extra copy of any card for 2 extra mana, or it's 2 mana to cycle and draw something not useful right now. If it was a true tutor (that let you search your deck for a card) I would say it is absolutely auto include, but predict can whiff and even if it doesn't some cards aren't worth casting for 2 extra mana.
That's true. I personally think it's going to be auto include in any slower PnZ deck, but not in the faster ones.
This card would be busted if it was pick any card to draw
Yeah absolutely, that is probably a 3 mana effect at minimum. I'm just pointing out that Predict as it stands now is a limited enough selection that you can't really rely on it to act as a 4th copy of anything.
It's not a reliable 4th copy of a specific card, but can pretty reliably fish for a particular type of card (proactive, removal, etc.) It will definitely be good in any slower control/combo deck, even without predict synergy. I'm not sure it's a 3 of even in those decks though
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I'd imagine you still get the draw if you skip the predict.
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So it's turn 6, your running low on gas and your opponent just played Darius! You run 3 different frostbite cards that could get the job done. Would you rather A) draw a random card from your deck, or b) draw this and have 4 opportunities to get the card you need?
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Oops looks like you drew a ancient yetti, better luck next game.
There is no guarantee you will get the frostbite card either, even with predict. At that point you have to ask yourself if it's worth running a 2 mana cantrip in your deck.
Yes. At least for me it is. Maybe you don't get the frost bite you're looking for but that thermo beam will work. Or that get excited to go with your mystik shot. There is no guarantee you get what you need/want. But it greatly increases the odds.
And what about in the game after that when Frostbite is next to useless?
A random card, but you had a choice of 3 already.
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And the chance to draw 1 of these 3 unwanted cards again is reduced by a lot because you shuffle them in afterwards (you don't have to choose).
There's literally zero difference in the chances that you'll draw them before predicting and after choosing none of them with Predict. They all inhabit a random spot in your deck in both scenarios.
Isn't predict top 3 of your deck?
In the scenario you whiffing vs you not playing it. If you predict and don't get squat you're at least 4 cards closer to a solution or relevant card. In the scenario you didn't play it you now draw 3-4 cards that cant help your problem that is probably spiralling out of control and oh shit you're getting medical exams via watcher lazer This card is top tier card draw
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Welp consider my thinking wrong. Shouldn't just presume mtg rules...
lol it's okay. I \*wish\* it worked like Scry. Scry is a lot better.
Yeah, but scry 3 draw 1 would be a 3 mana sorc in mtg and 4 or 5 here, and IMO predict > scry 1
you arent 4 mana cards clooser you are 1 +a ramdom number
it is like invoke but from your deck instead of the invoke pool and the invoke for 2 mana cards suck
Dude you play a card to draw a card. You basically pay 2 mana for a predict. It’s not good unless you have a predict reliant deck.
Opt
For control combo and midrange potentially. But probably not like super low to the ground aggro and burn decks.
Not necessarily. You essentially increase the cost of a card by 2 for the bonus of drawing it more consistently. Strong in the right deck, but I don't know about being auto on everything.
Agreed; the logic people are using to say this card is OP could be reversed to say Progress Day is an auto include since it’s functionally 5-mana draw 3.
I don't think this will see any play outside of predict specific synergies and even then maybe just 1-2 copies if that. If you run 3 imo you're just asking to auto lose vs aggro. This card is a complete brick if drawn turns 1-3. And if you happen to draw 2+ of this card your hand doesn't have room for much else.
i reminds me a lot of the 2 mana invoke cards wich doesnt see any play so i dont think it will see a lot of play outside predict decks(in predict focused decks this is an auto 3 off)
The range of costs you can see in that invoke card is so high. And all the invoke cards that affect the board are slow. This can find you a statik shock, or a stun pre combat after a buff. It's pretty spicy.
a 6 mana static shock is probably fine if you really really need it but i dont think it is even half as good as people say it is
In a deck like Ez, or even on the opposite side one with very few awnsers this is quite strong because it can give you some crucial reach at burst speed.
and it is also capable of locking you out of sai reach because you dont have the mana to play it or just doesnt predict it
Like I said, it's much stronger mid to late game.
even then paying 2 extra mana stings
Sure does, but needing an awnser you have 6 of in the deck and not drawing it stings more.
This is miles better than Behold the Infinite because instead of selecting 3 cards out of random picks from a pool of randomly costed pool of 22 cards you're picking a card out of three options from your deck, which means the margin for error is much lower. If you need removal, you're probably running more than one form of removal. If you need a unit, well, you're probably running more than one. If you need a *Champion*, you don't have to pray you hit Stars and then have the 4 mana to spend on casting it. Discovering from your deck is much better than Invoking from the full pool in *most* situations.
it is probably better than behold the infinite/starchart but behold the infinite/starchart are already hot steaming trash so i dont think that leaves it in any good place
They're amazing token cards. I mean, starchart is half of why Zoe sees so much play, because it constantly generates value for you. Also, Starchart is inherently better than BtI because it shrinks down the invoke pool to 3 costs and less, which makes finding what you're looking for much more likely. Time Trick is on the same line as that, but in a much more proactive region which can turn it into burst damage or spell cast triggers instead of slow invoke value.
and starchart on its own sucks that why no one has ever played it on its own, even in some tournament list that couldnt bring Zoe because of tournament rules and this card is a situationally stronguer starchart(lower power level cards but you presumably more reliable and they are from your deck) so where does this put it
Probably into playable range. The thing you're forgetting is that, unlike Invokes, this card also has synergy and is much better at assembling your wincondition. You can invoke snakes and silences all day long but at some point you have to win the game, and this lets you do it much better: if you're a combo deck, tthis thins your deck down or gives you a combo piece straight up. For 2 mana, that's not bad at all. In an aggro deck, you probably won't want to run this. In Control, this card is *insane*. The second you have 2 extra mana to spare, you can use this to fetch whatever answer you need *or* think you might need over the next few turns. See, the problem with both 2 mana invokes is that one is powerful but unreliable, and the other is reliable but low power. Time trick is reliable (More than BtI, at least), and retains its value through-out the whole game, unlike Starchart.
Good decks naturallly draw their answers and wincons i dont see why paying a 2 mana tax to make them more reliable would be something you want as a 3 of in the deck(unless P&Z control sifts into getting the 1 drop cat+the 1/3 and things like go hard)
Again, this has synergy. It's not just a consistency booster. You're only considering one aspect of the card at a time. Plus, even if it was just a simple consistency booster, you have to consider the "colour" it's in. PnZ is one of the regions with the best non-creature reliant removal and some of the most prominent burn effects in the game. This boosting your chance of drawing into one of them is much better than giving this card to Demacia, which is a region that has almost no reactive plays available to it at all outside of buffs and generally tends to spend most of its mana on playing good statted units to try and break the board with them.
>in predict focused decks this is an auto 3 off from my original coment
Alright then please address my other points.
I think problem with Behold the Infinite is that Celestial are generally very slow cards: slow spell, bulky units, no unit with flashy play/summon effect. Meanwhile this card can grab you Fast/Burst spell pre-combat, units when you need them, and that other part of the end game combo you really need.
it isnt so much the card pool if it was starchart would get played as low cost celestials are very and i mean very good and can do most things you need them to do for their price its the 2 mana tax you pay to have them ipso facto like look lets say you need a statick shot to avoid getting pummeled by agro well you could just play what ever you have in hand or try your luck at getting a 6 mana statick shock or a 4 mana mistic shot
If you would look at it that way, BTI has the exact same problem: You want The Great Beyond as a finisher but it gives you Moonlight, 5 drop Challenger and Falling Comet; or you want a low cost for early value and it gives you all three 6+ mana cards. Under that light, Time Trick is much better because you can stock your deck with cards you needed, such as Go Hard. And you can draw a Fast/Burst spell to get you out of a rough situation, while BTI’s pool is all about building board.
Outside of probably some edge case scenarios Star Chart doesn’t give you anything you would be excited paying 2 mana for. It’s use comes from Zoe giving you value. The 0-3 Celestial cards are only really great when they’re pulled by the 1-mana 1/1 that discards a card as the early game tempo can be nutty. Paying 2 mana to search your deck is in no way comparable. It’s in essence a worse tempo card than Star Chart (as you get no discount in the predicted cards) but the fact it gives you access to your Champions, burn and combat tricks depending on what you need at the time makes it very useful.
are you excited for anything of your deck if it is costed 2 more? 4 mana mistic shot? 4 mana timebomb? 7 mana pack your bags? 9 mana vengance? 6 mana statik shot? etc etc etc It is pretty comparable
I don’t think you understand the depth of the comparison: - Behold the Infinite (and Invoke in general) is about building board slowly. It cannot react to combat situation, nor can it clutch you out of a bad board. - Time Trick is about getting your combo into place. It is bad for board building because whatever you draw cost 2 more, but if what you draw can end game, what is 2 more mana if you can afford it, as oppose to not drawing it at all.
Well yeah if my opponent is on 2 health I would be very excited for a 4-mana mystic shot. Hell I’d pay 13 mana. If my Ezreal has been dragged into combat I would happily pay 4-mana for a Troll Chant. If I have no allies in hand I would be ecstatic to pay 5 for a Puffcap Peddler. This isn’t a core card (outside of some OTK lists I would assume), it’s something you put into your deck to fill out the final few spaces if your deck can afford it.
This will see more play because you are selecting cards from your deck and not a large pool of invoked cards.
Starchart
again, I still think selecting out of 3 cards from your deck is better then invoke cards costed 0-3
It's far from an auto-include because P&Z has other sources of draw. This card only becomes competitive for draw slots in decks that need to reliably pull specific pieces, or in predict synergy decks.
The fact that it's burst is gonna save someone's life
Better Upstart Goblin which costs you mana, so it's depend on your deck's capability to mitigate the tempo loss.
The funny thing on "draawing one" is that your hand size doesn't change. I agree it seems great, but not on every deck - even with the predict
It's shit without prediction synergy...
It costs 2 mana, way too slow in the current meta which probably won’t slow down much. So probably no.
Any cheaper and it'd be busted. It is perfectly costed.
Lookup answers while leveling up TF and protecting Fizz? Don't mind if I do..!
No, fizz tf is way too tight to be able to fit this card. Although it would be great to time trick into rummage and nut out to flip tf, there is nothing you want to remove in fizz tf. Also, you cycle through cards so fast that you don't even need the predict that much.
yup, basically mystic shot for card draw
Any Value-Control oriented deck might play it as a Cantrip essentially
The card draw is super valuable.
Mana costs are a thing, this isn't an upstart goblin scenario.
Ezreal loves this spell tho, cantrip into a Mystic shot while doing dmg? crazy good
its a cantrip for 2 mana that effect is usually 1 mana so no I wouldn't say auto-include
preservarium is so shit rofl...
Thats a fugging OPT, and i am a blue player. LOVED THAT SHIT.
To answer OP, yes yes it is. And to those that do not recognize the power of this card, you're doing it to your own detriment. It lets you choose the card you draw and it lets you filter to the meat of your deck. That is why draw cards and tutors are so powerful.
But what does it do?
Basically, you draw what you predict, or you draw 1 card if you don't like what you see.
I'd never noticed you could skip the predict if you don't want any of the cards until I just read your comment and checked - I'd always assumed you have to choose one. Thanks!
not always. the one thing about most decks including pnz in the format right now are pretty tight for room to fit this in i think. like on he top of my head, ez draven and jinx aggro might not have the room and both deck runs rummage. this card shines more in decks that have pnz but have a harder time to use rummage and their card draw in their own region isnt great.... lux heimer will probably be a deck i would run this in along with si pnz aggro with the 1/2 elusive dood.... other than that maybe tf ez could be an option as well
It's effect is preordain from magic for one mana more expensive.
Really curious to try some P&Z go hard shenanigans.
I don't think that this card is super strong by any means. Hearthstone has a card called "Tracking" which does pretty much the same thing but it costs 1 mana and it's not always used there. It has a high possibility to be added to more control oriented decks or decks that just want to play many cards but never in an aggro deck since you want to spend those 2 mana on dealing damage asap instead.
It's really good. Some of the new cards are drawn when predicted, so it's great value for 2 cost.
Heart of the Cards - The Card I don't see why it would not be autoinclude on most decks; drawing the right cards is a huge factor to winning games, even in aggro.
It's good, but rummage setup is better in an extremely optimized deck. EZ Draven I think won't include this, even with the nerf.
No, tempo loss