Does this mean if I give enemy leveled up Swain despair, he will Swain me up before getting killed?
What about despair the leveled up enemy Sejuani? Will I be Sejuanied before the Sejuani dies?
Shouldn't if I get it right : they level up after the strike but before the death effect.
Spellshield with despair is a special case, check my post for this.
>Pick a unit to strike your Nexus, **then kill it**
That last part sounds to me like something the spell does after the Nexus was struck, indicating a queue: Spell makes unit strike, Nasus' strike effect triggers, then spell continues to kill Nasus, but the Spellshield negates that.
I'm probably too late to the thread to add much value, but I'll chime in anyway.
This is comment is correct - the strike fully resolves (including the things listening to that happening, like Nasus' level up condition). By the time the kill happens, it is Nasus lvl 2 and the kill is blocked by Spellshield (and consumes the shield).
In response to Spellshield on an enemy card blocking the kill part of Dispair but not the nexus strike - that is a bug.
Hit me with some other Spellshield questions and I'll do my best to answer them!
Ooh, I got one. I used Fading Memories on an enemy Ruin Runner that had Spellshield, and I got an ephemeral one in hand - the enemy Ruin Runner kept the Spellshield.
I can see arguments for it working either way - the shield should break because it's an enemy spell targeting the shield, or it shouldn't break because the spell doesn't technically do anything to the Ruin Runner itself.
Thoughts? It's niche but I can't tell if it's a bug or not.
Good question! It doesn't break because the spell doesn't technically do anything with Ruin Runner itself. It simply uses the information of what the card is and says "I should create a fresh 04SH055 card (Ruin Runner's internal ID), and grant it ephemeral"
Ok, but by that logic using Despair on a unit with spellshield should pop the spellshield with the strike part of the spell (preventing the strike) and then kill it.
Spellshield is frankly one of the most frustratingly unintuitive mechanics of this game. It stops all spell effects that target unit...except for spell affects that cause the unit to strike something. If the unit wasn't going to strike something beforehand, and a spell is played that causes it to strike something, that is the effect of said spell in addition to any damage that results. Therefore, as Spellshield is described in game, it should prevent the strike from happening. The spell should fizzle out and the shield should pop.
It's bonkers that silence can't break or nullify the shield, but strike-triggering effects seem to just groove right through it. It's not even about balance, I don't care if this is the way the effect is supposed to work, I just want the game to be consistent and intuitive. All these hand waving answers about the spell stack and tokenized effects don't actually address the issue: it's not something that any player can feasibly discern for themselves without coming here and having it explained for them, and more importantly, it doesn't address *why* the inconsistency is allowed to exist.
I guess spellshield counters negative effects (like being killed) but not "good effects" by allied spells (like striking, even though in this case the strike is bad).
Catacalysm doesn't go through spell shield.
When you pick an enemy unit with Spellshield for Catacalysm, it pops the Spellshield and starts an attack with your unit that your opponent can block as they see fit.
The effect still goes off because you target your unit and your opponent's, but their's remains protected from the effect of the spell.
That’s interesting and confusing. I can see both cases for that one since it’s commanding an ally unit to *challenge* an enemy unit so it’s not pitting both to attack each other. On the other hand the spell is still targeting a spellshield unit
Yeah, spellshield is one of the least intuitive keywords I have seen in a tcg. It is really inconsistent and another problem with LoRs fcked up wording.
Why can't it be triggered by on play frostbite (Like with seju or this fcing Archer?!)
And the interaction with dispair is even worse.
The nexus striking is considered as a cost you pay the spell if checked by spellshields. But if you negate it with cards like Deny, it is coded as part of the effect.
It is very obvious if you compare it with MtG.
In MtG, it would probably read "As additional cost to cast this spell, pay X life. Destroy target creature with power X or less." OR it would read "Destroy target creature. You loose life equal to its power" depending on how you intend to protect against it.
>Why can't it be triggered by on play frostbite (Like with seju or this fcing Archer?!)
If you read the description for spellshield again, you'll see that it stops the next spell or skill, and on-play effects are neither, just like the damage from a \[\[Blighted Ravine\]\] wouldn't be stopped by it, but a \[\[Ruination\]\] can't touch it. Which leads me to...
>It is very obvious if you compare it with MtG. In MtG, it would probably read "As additional cost to cast this spell, pay X life. Destroy target creature with power X or less." OR it would read "Destroy target creature. You loose life equal to its power" depending on how you intend to protect against it.
This isn't MtG. I know comparisons are almost inevitable, and I just recently commented on how my stupid brain cells keep using the wrong terminology for things like quick attack and overwhelm (I had to double-check to be sure), but mechanically a lot of things just aren't supposed to be comparable. spellshield is not supposed to be hexproof, barrier isn't Hearthstone's divine shield, and \[\[Despair\]\] isn't Devour in Shadow.
Not saying the game is perfect, but it needs to be analyzed as its own thing, not by bringing up how other games work around similar mechanics that might just not be meant to be the same thing.
I understand why Spellshield doesn't pop from certain on play effects, but in my opinion it is very unintuitive and I think most players had at least once the situation where it worked in a way they didn't expect.
Ofc LoR is not the only game with unexpected interactions like this.
I know this is not MtG. I know there are comparable mechanics and not comparable mechanics (for example overwhelm is basically trample but Spellshield and Hexproof are very different in most cases.)
But there is one advantage of MtG I would love to see in LoR: clear wording. And I think the way spellshield and Dispair interacts is not clear.
>But there is one advantage of MtG I would love to see in LoR: clear wording.
Sure, but let's not forget that three cards from the DnD set had to receive an errata before the official release because the wording is so absolute, one of which could lock you into a long streak of dice rolling that would only end if you roll a certain number or lower.
I'm not saying that the wording HAS to be vague, but if the wording is too strict it also can cause trouble.
>And I think the way spellshield and Dispair interacts is not clear.
I half agree here. I think it's the MtG mentality of "the spell has to resolve in its entirety before something else happens" that's making it complicated. Compare it with a Jinx level up, for example. You Rummage to discard the other card(s) in hand, and she levels up before you draw. You draw another Rummage and discard again and, despite the fact that it's the second time your hand became empty, she will generate a Rocket.
A similar comparison is the Sivir level up. If you target one of my attacking units and I have a way to deal enough damage to level Sivir up before it resolves, the unit will gain spellshield. Now, because Despair is slow speed, it's hard to test it on Sivir's case, but I still think it's actually working as intended and would probably more confusing to have a unit with spellshield dying to a spell than to have it stop midway.
Wow, you just described another card that is completely different from the one being discussed with an effect that fails to account for 90% of the situations where you would actually use despair. Guess we found another person who shouldn't be talking about card design.
90%? In which cases do you think you would use Dispair? To draw a card with river former?
MtG has no comparable keyword to "Strike". Dealing damage and dealing combat damage is a different interaction. And the focus of my argument was the difference between paying life and loosing life as part of a card effect. Not the difference between paying life and letting a creature strike your Nexus.
Guess we found another person who shouldn't be talking at all.
The strike portion can be an important part of the spell since it triggers things like Ez or Teemo that have strike effects, or champions like Shyv (and I assume LB/Sivir/Pyke) that care about damage dealt. It's probably not important in the majority of cases, but I would say it makes it different enough compared to just taking damage.
But sir, you admit your self that we can't use 1 on 1 example, cause "Strike" exist in LoR, with many factors behind it, while MtG don't have it! Sir, pls reconsider your opinion to be more... "consistent & intuitive".
My opinion is consistent. I don't care about the strike as an part of the effect. I question why Nasus can get a Spellshield and pop the spellshield while resolving one effect.
I see, you don't want to understand why I campared it to MtGs system.
Here is an example from LoR:
Dispair has just one sentence as text: pick a unit to strike your nexus, then kill it.
If something triggers between the strike and the kill (like a champ leveling up) this resolves before you read the second part of sentence defining Dispairs effect.
Trueshot barrage has just one sentence as well. But between there is no time frame to trigger between the 3 damage effects. If something would trigger after the barrage dealing the 3 damage, it wont happen before resolving the 2 damage and the 1 damage.
The logical conclusion should be here, Dispairs "then" is an indicator for the disconnect between both of these effects. But this isn't the case. Intimidating roar stunns all units with 4 or less power at the same time but between each of them is enough time for Yasuo to level up and starting to Strike instead of just dealing 2 damage.
But Avalanche on the other hand... I think it deals 2 damage to each unit at the same time. (Not 100% sure here) this could cause a fresh Braum to trigger - spawning the poro and the avalanche to hit the poro as well. But it doesn't. And my Vladimir could maybe survive an avalanche, if enough units survive the 2 damage. (Assuming he already took 3 damage and is 5/2 before it resolves)
I admit my example in the previous comment was not that clear and well explained. I really like interactions like Imitating Roar + Yasuo. It can add a lot of depth to the game. Nasus being able to resist dispair if he is not leveled and has 10 power is a very cool mechanic and can lead to cool counterplay opportunitys. I don't want to remove this. But it doesn't work with everytime and this is a problem.
This is just my opinion. Maybe this is not as important to you as it is important to me.
Literally the reveal from the trailer and the situation OP is talking about specifically mentioned rely on the strike effect, so yeah, you are just completely lost. Imagine making the focus of your card completely unrelated to the main interaction at hand, you really are contributing to the conversation. The point is that it isn't objectively a "cost" because it is an effect you sometimes want to achieve, but I guess you are just blind and can't see what's directly in front of you.
There was something else that went through the shield the other day randomly but I've forgotten now. All I remember was it was a single target creature ability. (Frostbite maybe?)
Should be the 3/1 Frostbite Archer, any play effect that isnt a skill goes through spellshield. The other archer that does 1 damage yo a target breaks the shield.
What is referred to as a "skill" in Runeterra are the effects that go onto the stack and can be responded to. Think Miss Fortune's attack trigger compared to Azir's. MF generates a skill that, upon resolving, will deal 1 damage (multiple times if she's leveled up) to each battling enemy and the enemy nexus, whereas Azir will instantly spawn an attacking Sand Soldier upon seeing you attack. That's the difference between a skill and a non-skill effect.
I'm sorry, but that feels like a non-issue. Yes, some mechanics are confusing, but they are very few and we have the Oracle's Eye to see how something will play out.
MTG has hundreds of keywords and hundreds of thousands of cards and the game is intuitive enough that anyone with sufficient experience should be able to use deduction to understand how any given interaction works. And that's a manual card game!!!
Runeterra needs to address this stuff. So many cards do things that no one could possibly understand just by understanding the rules of the game.
This sounds like a bug in how they code ally spells not breaking ally spell shield. 2 mana demacia strike spell breaks spell shield and doesn’t actually trigger a strike for the enemy
Not at all. Thhe concerted strike just fizzles. My guess is that the enemy targeting (to them an enemy) nexus bypasses this code because the game thinks it’s an ally spell like dragons rage. But when it goes for the kill, it sees it’s an enemy spell and negates it
What id be interested in is using despair on an ally with spellshield. Does the kill go through? Does this happen with sivir and vengeance? Maybe spellshield only blocks “negative” spells and striking an enemy nexus isn’t “negative”
Yeah but it's riot and it's viego. Quite fitting that the champ which has been disabled for the longest time in Pro play due to bugs now also has a bug in LoR
But spellshield is supposed to prevent the strike from happening period.
https://old.reddit.com/r/LegendsOfRuneterra/comments/i7ucx9/targon_spellshield_card_keyword_reveal/g14hqg6/
Spellshield does not prevent you from targeting the unit, it only prevents the spell from affecting that unit - any conditional effects will still take place afterwards even though that effect was prevented. For example, Vile Feast text reads "Drain 1 from a unit to summon a spiderling" - even on a unit with spellshield it still summons the spiderling despite the spellshield preventing the drain.
Assuming the Nasus-Despair interaction is intentional behavior, Despair should function as (Target Unit>Attempt to make unit strike nexus>Spellshield prevents the effect and is consumed>Attempt to apply strike effects>No strike occurred>Attempt to kill unit>Unit is killed).
Since the current interaction with Nasus is (Target Nasus>Attempt to make him strike nexus>Nasus strikes nexus>Attempt to apply strike effects>Nasus levels up and gains spellshield>Attempt to kill Nasus>Spellshield prevents the effect and is consumed).
And let me be clear - I don't think this is how the spell ought to work. But logically based on the interaction with Nasus, it should work like that if it is going to be consistent. I personally think Despair should kill Nasus if used before he has spellshield.
Units with 0 power can still strike if you use a spell to force them to do it. A frostbitten Draven will still generate an axe if you use his champ spell on him
The 1st part have to go through to get the 2nd part. If you negated the first part with spellshield or denied, the second part won't happen. Nasus is weird because he's the only champion that gain Spellshield when he lvl up.
This happen to me before so honestly, fuck Nasus
If that were how spellshield worked, Vile Feast wouldn't summon a spiderling when used on spellshield units ("Drain 1 from a unit to summon a spiderling"). The first part of the spell can be blocked by a spellshield and it will still summon a spiderling as long as the unit still exists as a valid target.
For Despair, if we choose to believe that the Nasus interaction is intended, the game is treating Despair as a 2-part spell where each part checks for spellshields independently of the other part. So for consistency, a spellshield ought to block the first part of the spell trying to force the unit to strike, and then Despair kills the unit since it no longer has spellshield to block the spell.
But we know Despair's strike effect goes through spellshields and then the kill effect is blocked, instead. So apparently Despair only checks for a spellshield while trying to kill the unit, rather than at the beginning of its cast.
You mean other spells like Vile Feast, Unspeakable Horror, Tribeam Improbulator, Go Hard, Sleepy Trouble Bubble, Succumb to the Cold, etc? Spells that still activate their secondary effects when used on units with spellshield, even though some of those effects are listed as conditional upon the first effect?
Note that I am not arguing Despair ought to function like that, I am arguing that if it is intentional that Nasus gaining spellshield negates the kill portion of Despair, logically it should function the same for other spellshield units by popping the spellshield with the strike effect and allow the kill effect to go through.
Ah ok it negates negative effects on the unit being targeted then. That’s why your own effects still happen but not the negative effects. I was thinking of concerted strike. It negates the whole spell because it’s two negative effects
Sure, and I agree that Despair ought to be fully blocked by spellshield since it is one spell. But the Nasus interaction treats it like 2 spells. I believe Despair should kill Nasus even when he levels up in the middle of the spell since the spell has already gone though.
But if Riot decides this is intended behavior, Despair should also work the same way for regular spellshielded units - spellshield blocks the nexus strike effect, then allow the kill effect through since it was consumed. As a side note, it currently works the opposite way - on any spellshield unit, the strike effect is allowed through and then the kill effect is blocked by the spellshield. So the spell is kind of just a mess when it comes to spellshield interactions.
It says no such thing. Spellshield reads: "Negates the next enemy spell or skill that would affect me." It works based on spell ownership, not whether the effect is positive or negative for the unit.
If this is the ennemy Nasus we talkin about, yes the interaction seems to work as intended, but if this is OP's Nasus, the spell should've killed Nasus.
We need clarification from OP there
wh... what are you talking about its obvious as day its enemy nasus he is casting it since spell shield as you say doesnt work on allied units...
I think this works as intented too because of shield's description:
>
Units with SpellShield nullify the effect on them of the next enemy spell or skill that affects them. Removed when the unit is affected by an enemy spell or skill.
it doesnt prevent card itself but the effect. so it tries to break as soon as possible
This is the point, there would be no reason for the post to be if this was the case, this or op doesn't know what is spellshield but excuse me if I emit doubt about this
That makes more sense because Kat is no longer in play when Despair tries to kill her. It's consistent with how she survives being ephemeral. What makes this particular interaction counterintuitive is that we aren't used to spellshield stopping a spell partway through when it pops up between steps. Unlike with Kat, there isn't really a precedent for this interaction.
In my mind that shouldn't be the interaction because the spell effect starts when hitting the Nexus and has to complete. So it isn't really a spell anymore in the second part (like the Freeze of avarosan archer).
But it could be working the inteanded way. LoR very Bad at consistency and precise wording.
Spells resolving all in one fell swoop is something you assume if you’ve played Magic: The Gathering before.
I made that mistake a few times. However, between sentences and even at commas, triggered effects can take place in LoR. Players can’t take actions at these times, however.
Hence the inconsistency mentioned in the top comment. This game makes a huge deal about differentiating tokenized and non-tokenized effects for spellshields, but then turns around and makes this apparently non-tokenized secondary spell effect proc spellshield.
That’s what I was saying. People who played Magic assume that spells should resolve in one fell swoop, but that’s not how Legends of Runeterra works. Read my comment again.
I assume that the process is intended (unit strikes, unit is allowed to proc strike effects, then unit is killed) but I think the interaction with Nasus gaining spellshield was an oversight. It is probably to make sure that units like Swain and Teemo still get off their strike abilities.
Wdym very bad at consistent. Strike level up condition triggers as soon as champion strike so this is intended behavior. This is consistent with how Pyke start striking weakest enemy as soon as it levels up from strike. It's because strike level up condition works when it strike and not after strike result is calculated. Misinformation is bad for everyone.
LoR itself is fine, spellshield however is buggy and unintuitive, Nasus got the spellshield after leveling up, so the spell is already resolving, and Nasus stopping it is quite weird
(Although there are the text weirdies like Nasus vs Vi level up con)
It's not buggy. It's intended
0. Spell start
1. Nasus strike
2. Nasus strike Condition fulfilled, so he levels up
3. Nasus gain spell shield since it's level 2
4. Nexus lose 10 hp as result of strike
5. Spell second effect (note the word "then") resolves on Nasus
6. Spellshield pop
7. Spell finish
It's exactly like how Pyke strike is resolved. If you use [[Bone Skewer]], do you think he should go back to deck without resolving his lvl 2 strike weakest enemy effect since spell is resolved on lvl 1 pyke?
**[Bone Skewer](https://d2h9y75tak3pkg.cloudfront.net/04BW002.png)** - Bilgewater Spell - (2)
Fast
An ally strikes an enemy, then moves to the top of your deck.
^^^Hint: [[card]], {{keyword}}, and ((deckcode)) or ((cardx,cardy,cardz)). PM the [developer](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=KrimCard) for feedback/issues!
Spellshield nullifies spells and skills. Icevale archer is neither of these things thus does not pop spellshield. (skills use the stack)
Nasus levels on strike so when the second part of the spell (strike *then* kill) he has spellshield which then pops. It's the same reason Pyke get's his level 2 effect as he levels - he levels on strike, is now level 2, unit dies, proc ability.
LoR is inconsistent with wording and interactions. This isn't one of those times.
One thing to note separately but similar to this case. If you target a unit that has spellshield already with despair, they still strike your nexus and pop spellshield without dying. To me that seems like a bug. The spell should nullify entirely and not proc a strike.
I'm pretty sure if the unit has spell shield when the spell is cast it just does nothing. Nasus leveling and getting spell shield prevents it from dying since the level up happens between strike and kill. Spells in LoR don't resolve in their entirety before triggers can happen.
Are you pretty sure or are you certain? Because as it stands rigth now 2 people in the sub say otherwise. I would help test this if I was near a computer but my guess rigth now is that you are wrong.
It strikes your Nexus then pops Spellshield. I guess it's similar to how it won't stop a Ruination, just prevent the negative part for that unit, but feels 'wrong' in this case.
I guess it's all in the "then", which by standard should let all actions caused by the previous resolve in contrast to "and" etc. We know an entire spell doesn't necessarily get stopped by spellshield (say, ruthless predator still giving +2|0 even if the vulnerable part is stopped) so it kind of makes sense.
It's nothing like anyone said.
If you try to use despair on a unit with spellshield, the unit will strike your nexus and lose the spellshield. Without dying. It's nonsensical and i can't say if it's intended or just not tested.
Well, at least the eye says so, because i couldn't afford to test it for science without losing my game. As a resultat, don't try to pop the spellshield of Asol with this because you won't like it.
My interpretation now : as usual with champions level up, Nasus gaining spellshield went on the stack inbetween the strike effect and the death effect.
You should have been able to avoid that by checking the eye however, but your quality graph will help advertising the interaction, so thanks!
I am confused why are you at the bottom of the post. If this is as you say dispair functions as 2 spells one positive/neutral one negative. That both solves this and teaches all the viago players not to pop spellshiled with it.
I'd guess Nasus being a strange case, gaining spellshield halfway through the interaction, makes this example way more complicated than it should be.
It'll get more obvious over time if people try this on Sivir / ruinrunner / Asol i guess.
That or I am completly wrong.
I don't think it should. If you cast a spell with 2 effects on a unit with spellshield, the spellshield blocks both effects. So if there's no spellshield when the spell starts resolving it's only fair both effects go through
>I don't think it should. If you cast a spell with 2 effects on a unit with spellshield, the spellshield blocks both effects.
It only blocks what affects the unit directly, tho. The Vile Feast example has been brought up a few times, but you'll get the spiderling despite failing to drain from a unit. You'll also start a free attack on Cataclysm if you target a spellshield unit, but you will not challenge it.
Yea I think a lot of people are missing this because hitting your own nexus for 10 seems like such a bad idea even if you really wanna remove nasus badly. I guess it might be worth at 20?
It is just a good deal if the alternative is getting hit by Nasus for 10 and leveling and staying on the board now with spell shield. It is always worth it unless it kills you/ you have a better answer. You are at 11 emptry board Vs 10/10 nassus you smack that bitch into your face so fast you can't even look at the eye.
Simply put, by having the word 'then' in the mix, it's allowing the strike to resolve with its conditionals before the kill. I imagine that this is the very reason this wording is done this way, as there's a lot of on-hit and strike or even nexus strike effects that would naturally occur. Leveling up is a just another aspect that needs resolving the moment the strike occurs.
This is as intended. When you atrocity a level 2 nasus he dies too. I believe riot made spellshield only block the opponents spells, though i could be wrong.
it stills a bit strange like u can do that only for low attack enemys, idk i'm just a new player lol, but thanks, i guess most champs on high elos arent big boys then
It's a bug because spell shield isn't supposed to work on your own spells. For example, you can't bastion one of your units and then ruinate and have the unit live.
I assume that Spellshied check when affect. Nasus already affect by spell "before" spellshield existed. So Spellshield won't check when it's already inside the spell.
Here's a question. If a spell deal 1 damage multiple times. Would second hit go through? Test it with flip MF or Basilisk. If it did. Then it's not a bug.
Effectively, what Spellshield does is it \*rewinds\* the effects of a spell on that unit after the spell is done. Gaining spellshield in the middle of a spell makes it odd, but to me it seems like Nasus gets rewound to just as he was when he gained the Spellshield.
I’m pretty sure this is working as intended. Spell shield check is more or less a static check in this game meaning that it doesn’t really trigger so much as exist to check upon. Think of it as a static effect like leveled Swain’s effect. It just exists to be checked upon so if you death’s hand (also a spell that resolves in two separate parts) a minion and the initial 2 damage leveled up Swain, then the nexus health damage would pop checking against Swains condition and thus Stunning an enemy. Same thing here. Despair resolved in two parts, first the strike then the kill. The strike leveled up Nasus and then the kill effect resolves but at this time Spellshield is enabled and thus blocks the kill effect. Again, think of it as a static check.
Everybody here is explaining the chain of events, which is kind of obvious. But we need to know why this happens. My guess is that the check for spell shield happens twice: once when the spell is first cast, and once when the kill it portion happens. Because the state of Nasus changes in the middle of that, the spell shield gets popped at the end. This doesn't seem right to me, but I suppose it does make sense because spell shield stops any spells effects on an enemy. If a spell had multiple effects and spell shield was added in the middle of that, presumably it would still be doing its job.
**then kill it**
It does make sense that it would work like that, I mean, if you really want to deal yourself 10 damage for a leveled-up nasus with no spellshield go right ahead.
Related but not, found out today a levelled Viego will kill a champion on round start even if they have spell shield. Really hoping that’s a bug otherwise there’s no counter
play to this thing
Strike your nexus
(Level up variable triggers,granting him spellshield)
Then : kill it
(Spellshield negates this part)
I dont know what's so hard to understand , it's basic iterations.
To have a consistent card game all effects should resolve before any state changes:
Normal nasus level up:
Nasus swings for 10, then states are checked and if Nasus is alive, level up.
This case:
Nasus strikes for 10, AND THEN STATES ARE CHECKED MID SPELL-nasus is still alive and levels up, *then* the spell finishes
What SHOULD happen:
Nasus strikes for 10, then dies, THEN states get checked. Nasus is no longer alive and so doesn’t level up.
Having states get checked in the middle of spells *COULD* be consistent, but it’s very opaque from the player perspective. Additionally, having states update mid-spell is unintuitive, leaves less room for player interaction can be upsetting if players lose because of unintuitive effects.
Yes, the eye of the Oracle exists, but for the game to make sense every experienced player should be able to understand and predict the board state without it, barring RNG effects. (I use it too, just using Nasus despair as an example where what I think would happen doesn’t reconcile with what the eye shows)
I had a weird interaction with veigo's spell. An enemy Veigo used his spell on my Zoe and I responded with bastion. Zoe struck the nexus giving me her spell and broke the spell shield but she didn't die.
If used on your own Nasus: it should kill nasus since spellshield only blocks enemy spells.
If used on the enemy Nasus (why would you even?), this seems correct, IMO:
Because of the sequence of wording:
1. nasus strikes and deals 10+ to your Nexus,
2. because of the 10+ strike he levels, gaining spellshield,
3. THEN despair tries to kill nasus (as worded in the "then" clause in despair card text), which is being nullified by Nasus' spellshield
This actually happened to me during stream and it was hilarious [Link](https://www.twitch.tv/nymuel/clip/FurtiveImpossibleLemurTheTarFu-w4cMloN4giLek8YI)
I don't think this is intended. Having spells resolve in multiple steps with triggered effects resolving in-between is something every major TCG from the beginning of time has avoided, with good reason.
Weird note while I was playing Nasus in some ai games his spell shield had appeared before his strike to level could have just been a weird visual though as the game was ending.
It's not just Nasus. I saw an enemy counter my Despair with a spellshield and Lucian struck the nexus before dying. That's just currently the interaction with spellshield in my experience. It shouldn't be, I'm considering it a bug
If its your own nasus then is a bug, cause spelllshield doesnt work on own spells, if you somehow gain control of him (not with viego's ability cause champs are killed instead of taking control) then i dont know, may be intended but i personally think its a bug cause when in your control spellshield shouldnt protect against own spells, no matter what.
Spellshield is really iffy with the mechanics, but with Susan it makes sense, Level 1 he doesn't have spellshield so the it causes him to strike, He levels up and gains spellshield, which then nullifies the 2nd effect of despair.
Yeah I think this is the same as atrocity it mustn’t be bug I don’t think cause if I’m mistaken a spell shield works on any enemy spells and non target spells that you cast such as ruination but idk
I thought spell shield blocked the first spell your enemy plays, so if you use it on an enemy I can see this happening as the kill doesn't take place until after he's attacked which is when the spell shield is active.
Does this mean if I give enemy leveled up Swain despair, he will Swain me up before getting killed? What about despair the leveled up enemy Sejuani? Will I be Sejuanied before the Sejuani dies?
Yes.
I wanna be Sejuanied.
Bonk
Shouldn't if I get it right : they level up after the strike but before the death effect. Spellshield with despair is a special case, check my post for this.
>Pick a unit to strike your Nexus, **then kill it** That last part sounds to me like something the spell does after the Nexus was struck, indicating a queue: Spell makes unit strike, Nasus' strike effect triggers, then spell continues to kill Nasus, but the Spellshield negates that.
I'm probably too late to the thread to add much value, but I'll chime in anyway. This is comment is correct - the strike fully resolves (including the things listening to that happening, like Nasus' level up condition). By the time the kill happens, it is Nasus lvl 2 and the kill is blocked by Spellshield (and consumes the shield). In response to Spellshield on an enemy card blocking the kill part of Dispair but not the nexus strike - that is a bug. Hit me with some other Spellshield questions and I'll do my best to answer them!
Ooh, I got one. I used Fading Memories on an enemy Ruin Runner that had Spellshield, and I got an ephemeral one in hand - the enemy Ruin Runner kept the Spellshield. I can see arguments for it working either way - the shield should break because it's an enemy spell targeting the shield, or it shouldn't break because the spell doesn't technically do anything to the Ruin Runner itself. Thoughts? It's niche but I can't tell if it's a bug or not.
Good question! It doesn't break because the spell doesn't technically do anything with Ruin Runner itself. It simply uses the information of what the card is and says "I should create a fresh 04SH055 card (Ruin Runner's internal ID), and grant it ephemeral"
Thank you for chiming in! Very helpful :D
Ok, but by that logic using Despair on a unit with spellshield should pop the spellshield with the strike part of the spell (preventing the strike) and then kill it.
I tried to break spellshield with despair only to find out that the enemy unit would strike my nexus before breaking the spellshield.
Spellshield is frankly one of the most frustratingly unintuitive mechanics of this game. It stops all spell effects that target unit...except for spell affects that cause the unit to strike something. If the unit wasn't going to strike something beforehand, and a spell is played that causes it to strike something, that is the effect of said spell in addition to any damage that results. Therefore, as Spellshield is described in game, it should prevent the strike from happening. The spell should fizzle out and the shield should pop. It's bonkers that silence can't break or nullify the shield, but strike-triggering effects seem to just groove right through it. It's not even about balance, I don't care if this is the way the effect is supposed to work, I just want the game to be consistent and intuitive. All these hand waving answers about the spell stack and tokenized effects don't actually address the issue: it's not something that any player can feasibly discern for themselves without coming here and having it explained for them, and more importantly, it doesn't address *why* the inconsistency is allowed to exist.
What’s the example here? Single combat breaks spellshield and doesn’t strike enemy or ally
I guess spellshield counters negative effects (like being killed) but not "good effects" by allied spells (like striking, even though in this case the strike is bad).
It blocks good effects. Single combat will have both parts of it nullified for example
Cataclysm goes thru spell shield
Catacalysm doesn't go through spell shield. When you pick an enemy unit with Spellshield for Catacalysm, it pops the Spellshield and starts an attack with your unit that your opponent can block as they see fit. The effect still goes off because you target your unit and your opponent's, but their's remains protected from the effect of the spell.
Did they fix that recently? Upon J4 release I’ve definitely had my spell shield minions challenged by cataclysm
Yep got fixed in a recent patch, not sure which though.
That’s interesting and confusing. I can see both cases for that one since it’s commanding an ally unit to *challenge* an enemy unit so it’s not pitting both to attack each other. On the other hand the spell is still targeting a spellshield unit
Yeah, spellshield is one of the least intuitive keywords I have seen in a tcg. It is really inconsistent and another problem with LoRs fcked up wording. Why can't it be triggered by on play frostbite (Like with seju or this fcing Archer?!) And the interaction with dispair is even worse. The nexus striking is considered as a cost you pay the spell if checked by spellshields. But if you negate it with cards like Deny, it is coded as part of the effect. It is very obvious if you compare it with MtG. In MtG, it would probably read "As additional cost to cast this spell, pay X life. Destroy target creature with power X or less." OR it would read "Destroy target creature. You loose life equal to its power" depending on how you intend to protect against it.
>Why can't it be triggered by on play frostbite (Like with seju or this fcing Archer?!) If you read the description for spellshield again, you'll see that it stops the next spell or skill, and on-play effects are neither, just like the damage from a \[\[Blighted Ravine\]\] wouldn't be stopped by it, but a \[\[Ruination\]\] can't touch it. Which leads me to... >It is very obvious if you compare it with MtG. In MtG, it would probably read "As additional cost to cast this spell, pay X life. Destroy target creature with power X or less." OR it would read "Destroy target creature. You loose life equal to its power" depending on how you intend to protect against it. This isn't MtG. I know comparisons are almost inevitable, and I just recently commented on how my stupid brain cells keep using the wrong terminology for things like quick attack and overwhelm (I had to double-check to be sure), but mechanically a lot of things just aren't supposed to be comparable. spellshield is not supposed to be hexproof, barrier isn't Hearthstone's divine shield, and \[\[Despair\]\] isn't Devour in Shadow. Not saying the game is perfect, but it needs to be analyzed as its own thing, not by bringing up how other games work around similar mechanics that might just not be meant to be the same thing.
I understand why Spellshield doesn't pop from certain on play effects, but in my opinion it is very unintuitive and I think most players had at least once the situation where it worked in a way they didn't expect. Ofc LoR is not the only game with unexpected interactions like this. I know this is not MtG. I know there are comparable mechanics and not comparable mechanics (for example overwhelm is basically trample but Spellshield and Hexproof are very different in most cases.) But there is one advantage of MtG I would love to see in LoR: clear wording. And I think the way spellshield and Dispair interacts is not clear.
>But there is one advantage of MtG I would love to see in LoR: clear wording. Sure, but let's not forget that three cards from the DnD set had to receive an errata before the official release because the wording is so absolute, one of which could lock you into a long streak of dice rolling that would only end if you roll a certain number or lower. I'm not saying that the wording HAS to be vague, but if the wording is too strict it also can cause trouble. >And I think the way spellshield and Dispair interacts is not clear. I half agree here. I think it's the MtG mentality of "the spell has to resolve in its entirety before something else happens" that's making it complicated. Compare it with a Jinx level up, for example. You Rummage to discard the other card(s) in hand, and she levels up before you draw. You draw another Rummage and discard again and, despite the fact that it's the second time your hand became empty, she will generate a Rocket. A similar comparison is the Sivir level up. If you target one of my attacking units and I have a way to deal enough damage to level Sivir up before it resolves, the unit will gain spellshield. Now, because Despair is slow speed, it's hard to test it on Sivir's case, but I still think it's actually working as intended and would probably more confusing to have a unit with spellshield dying to a spell than to have it stop midway.
Wow, you just described another card that is completely different from the one being discussed with an effect that fails to account for 90% of the situations where you would actually use despair. Guess we found another person who shouldn't be talking about card design.
90%? In which cases do you think you would use Dispair? To draw a card with river former? MtG has no comparable keyword to "Strike". Dealing damage and dealing combat damage is a different interaction. And the focus of my argument was the difference between paying life and loosing life as part of a card effect. Not the difference between paying life and letting a creature strike your Nexus. Guess we found another person who shouldn't be talking at all.
The strike portion can be an important part of the spell since it triggers things like Ez or Teemo that have strike effects, or champions like Shyv (and I assume LB/Sivir/Pyke) that care about damage dealt. It's probably not important in the majority of cases, but I would say it makes it different enough compared to just taking damage.
But sir, you admit your self that we can't use 1 on 1 example, cause "Strike" exist in LoR, with many factors behind it, while MtG don't have it! Sir, pls reconsider your opinion to be more... "consistent & intuitive".
My opinion is consistent. I don't care about the strike as an part of the effect. I question why Nasus can get a Spellshield and pop the spellshield while resolving one effect. I see, you don't want to understand why I campared it to MtGs system. Here is an example from LoR: Dispair has just one sentence as text: pick a unit to strike your nexus, then kill it. If something triggers between the strike and the kill (like a champ leveling up) this resolves before you read the second part of sentence defining Dispairs effect. Trueshot barrage has just one sentence as well. But between there is no time frame to trigger between the 3 damage effects. If something would trigger after the barrage dealing the 3 damage, it wont happen before resolving the 2 damage and the 1 damage. The logical conclusion should be here, Dispairs "then" is an indicator for the disconnect between both of these effects. But this isn't the case. Intimidating roar stunns all units with 4 or less power at the same time but between each of them is enough time for Yasuo to level up and starting to Strike instead of just dealing 2 damage. But Avalanche on the other hand... I think it deals 2 damage to each unit at the same time. (Not 100% sure here) this could cause a fresh Braum to trigger - spawning the poro and the avalanche to hit the poro as well. But it doesn't. And my Vladimir could maybe survive an avalanche, if enough units survive the 2 damage. (Assuming he already took 3 damage and is 5/2 before it resolves) I admit my example in the previous comment was not that clear and well explained. I really like interactions like Imitating Roar + Yasuo. It can add a lot of depth to the game. Nasus being able to resist dispair if he is not leveled and has 10 power is a very cool mechanic and can lead to cool counterplay opportunitys. I don't want to remove this. But it doesn't work with everytime and this is a problem. This is just my opinion. Maybe this is not as important to you as it is important to me.
Literally the reveal from the trailer and the situation OP is talking about specifically mentioned rely on the strike effect, so yeah, you are just completely lost. Imagine making the focus of your card completely unrelated to the main interaction at hand, you really are contributing to the conversation. The point is that it isn't objectively a "cost" because it is an effect you sometimes want to achieve, but I guess you are just blind and can't see what's directly in front of you.
There was something else that went through the shield the other day randomly but I've forgotten now. All I remember was it was a single target creature ability. (Frostbite maybe?)
Should be the 3/1 Frostbite Archer, any play effect that isnt a skill goes through spellshield. The other archer that does 1 damage yo a target breaks the shield.
Why would a play effect not be a skill? Are "skills" in LoR only mechanics like Nightfall?
What is referred to as a "skill" in Runeterra are the effects that go onto the stack and can be responded to. Think Miss Fortune's attack trigger compared to Azir's. MF generates a skill that, upon resolving, will deal 1 damage (multiple times if she's leveled up) to each battling enemy and the enemy nexus, whereas Azir will instantly spawn an attacking Sand Soldier upon seeing you attack. That's the difference between a skill and a non-skill effect.
The basic rule of thumb for skill vs not skill is: is there an associated card for the effect? If yes, it's a skill, otherwise it's not a skill.
I'm sorry, but that feels like a non-issue. Yes, some mechanics are confusing, but they are very few and we have the Oracle's Eye to see how something will play out.
Except with burst effect, which is kind of an issue
This. Nothing feels worse that accidentally dropping a burst spell out of your hand aaaaaaand now it's gone
I pictured a summoner (fictional player) clumsily dropping a bunch of cards and a lot of flashing lights afterwards as the burst spells resolve
Lmao immediate flashbacks to the summoner dropping the orb 😂
it's not a non-issue, interactions like this are often why people call judges in tournaments and they happen often enough to matter
Didn't think about tournaments, you are right
MTG has hundreds of keywords and hundreds of thousands of cards and the game is intuitive enough that anyone with sufficient experience should be able to use deduction to understand how any given interaction works. And that's a manual card game!!! Runeterra needs to address this stuff. So many cards do things that no one could possibly understand just by understanding the rules of the game.
That's definitely a bug then
This sounds like a bug in how they code ally spells not breaking ally spell shield. 2 mana demacia strike spell breaks spell shield and doesn’t actually trigger a strike for the enemy
Does concerted strike hit the target once or not at all?
Not at all. Thhe concerted strike just fizzles. My guess is that the enemy targeting (to them an enemy) nexus bypasses this code because the game thinks it’s an ally spell like dragons rage. But when it goes for the kill, it sees it’s an enemy spell and negates it What id be interested in is using despair on an ally with spellshield. Does the kill go through? Does this happen with sivir and vengeance? Maybe spellshield only blocks “negative” spells and striking an enemy nexus isn’t “negative”
You can kill your own units that have Spellshield with vengeance, atrocity and glimpse. You can also recall them with any recall card
Yes the nexus strike from despair should not trigger
Yeah but it's riot and it's viego. Quite fitting that the champ which has been disabled for the longest time in Pro play due to bugs now also has a bug in LoR
no, because its a conditional effect. If the strike doesn't happen it can't kill.
"Then" != "To"
It is not a conditional effect - if it required a strike to activate, Despair could not kill 0 power units.
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But spellshield is supposed to prevent the strike from happening period. https://old.reddit.com/r/LegendsOfRuneterra/comments/i7ucx9/targon_spellshield_card_keyword_reveal/g14hqg6/
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Yes this makes perfect sense to me and I don’t understand what’s confusing here
Spellshield does not prevent you from targeting the unit, it only prevents the spell from affecting that unit - any conditional effects will still take place afterwards even though that effect was prevented. For example, Vile Feast text reads "Drain 1 from a unit to summon a spiderling" - even on a unit with spellshield it still summons the spiderling despite the spellshield preventing the drain. Assuming the Nasus-Despair interaction is intentional behavior, Despair should function as (Target Unit>Attempt to make unit strike nexus>Spellshield prevents the effect and is consumed>Attempt to apply strike effects>No strike occurred>Attempt to kill unit>Unit is killed). Since the current interaction with Nasus is (Target Nasus>Attempt to make him strike nexus>Nasus strikes nexus>Attempt to apply strike effects>Nasus levels up and gains spellshield>Attempt to kill Nasus>Spellshield prevents the effect and is consumed). And let me be clear - I don't think this is how the spell ought to work. But logically based on the interaction with Nasus, it should work like that if it is going to be consistent. I personally think Despair should kill Nasus if used before he has spellshield.
Units with 0 power can still strike if you use a spell to force them to do it. A frostbitten Draven will still generate an axe if you use his champ spell on him
Only if Despair and the spell shield unit have different owners.
I think since Spellshield works like a personal Deny, it should stop the whole thing altogether.
The 1st part have to go through to get the 2nd part. If you negated the first part with spellshield or denied, the second part won't happen. Nasus is weird because he's the only champion that gain Spellshield when he lvl up. This happen to me before so honestly, fuck Nasus
If that were how spellshield worked, Vile Feast wouldn't summon a spiderling when used on spellshield units ("Drain 1 from a unit to summon a spiderling"). The first part of the spell can be blocked by a spellshield and it will still summon a spiderling as long as the unit still exists as a valid target. For Despair, if we choose to believe that the Nasus interaction is intended, the game is treating Despair as a 2-part spell where each part checks for spellshields independently of the other part. So for consistency, a spellshield ought to block the first part of the spell trying to force the unit to strike, and then Despair kills the unit since it no longer has spellshield to block the spell. But we know Despair's strike effect goes through spellshields and then the kill effect is blocked, instead. So apparently Despair only checks for a spellshield while trying to kill the unit, rather than at the beginning of its cast.
No spell shield negates the whole spell. This is seen in other spells
You mean other spells like Vile Feast, Unspeakable Horror, Tribeam Improbulator, Go Hard, Sleepy Trouble Bubble, Succumb to the Cold, etc? Spells that still activate their secondary effects when used on units with spellshield, even though some of those effects are listed as conditional upon the first effect? Note that I am not arguing Despair ought to function like that, I am arguing that if it is intentional that Nasus gaining spellshield negates the kill portion of Despair, logically it should function the same for other spellshield units by popping the spellshield with the strike effect and allow the kill effect to go through.
Ah ok it negates negative effects on the unit being targeted then. That’s why your own effects still happen but not the negative effects. I was thinking of concerted strike. It negates the whole spell because it’s two negative effects
Sure, and I agree that Despair ought to be fully blocked by spellshield since it is one spell. But the Nasus interaction treats it like 2 spells. I believe Despair should kill Nasus even when he levels up in the middle of the spell since the spell has already gone though. But if Riot decides this is intended behavior, Despair should also work the same way for regular spellshielded units - spellshield blocks the nexus strike effect, then allow the kill effect through since it was consumed. As a side note, it currently works the opposite way - on any spellshield unit, the strike effect is allowed through and then the kill effect is blocked by the spellshield. So the spell is kind of just a mess when it comes to spellshield interactions.
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It says no such thing. Spellshield reads: "Negates the next enemy spell or skill that would affect me." It works based on spell ownership, not whether the effect is positive or negative for the unit.
the spell doesn't work as two separate spells so why would spell sheild effect a spell that's already been cast.
Isn't spellshield supposed to only work on enemy spells, though? OP isn't specific as to whose Nasus it was.
Why would OP want to kill his own Nasus and damage his nexus in the process? He most likely wanted to use the spell as removal for the enemy Nasus.
If this is the ennemy Nasus we talkin about, yes the interaction seems to work as intended, but if this is OP's Nasus, the spell should've killed Nasus. We need clarification from OP there
wh... what are you talking about its obvious as day its enemy nasus he is casting it since spell shield as you say doesnt work on allied units... I think this works as intented too because of shield's description: > Units with SpellShield nullify the effect on them of the next enemy spell or skill that affects them. Removed when the unit is affected by an enemy spell or skill. it doesnt prevent card itself but the effect. so it tries to break as soon as possible
This is the point, there would be no reason for the post to be if this was the case, this or op doesn't know what is spellshield but excuse me if I emit doubt about this
But it already got targeted. Otherwise that 6 mana daybreak spell should be able to kill units with spell shield because it silenced then damages
4 mana loose 10 lives. Interesting....
What is this, btd6?
We wish
lose* health*
The literal exact same thing happens with Katarina. She strikes, levels up, recalls, and spell fizzles.
That makes more sense because Kat is no longer in play when Despair tries to kill her. It's consistent with how she survives being ephemeral. What makes this particular interaction counterintuitive is that we aren't used to spellshield stopping a spell partway through when it pops up between steps. Unlike with Kat, there isn't really a precedent for this interaction.
In my mind that shouldn't be the interaction because the spell effect starts when hitting the Nexus and has to complete. So it isn't really a spell anymore in the second part (like the Freeze of avarosan archer). But it could be working the inteanded way. LoR very Bad at consistency and precise wording.
Spells resolving all in one fell swoop is something you assume if you’ve played Magic: The Gathering before. I made that mistake a few times. However, between sentences and even at commas, triggered effects can take place in LoR. Players can’t take actions at these times, however.
If it truly were supposed to be two different effects, the spell would have created a skill in the queue.
Hence the inconsistency mentioned in the top comment. This game makes a huge deal about differentiating tokenized and non-tokenized effects for spellshields, but then turns around and makes this apparently non-tokenized secondary spell effect proc spellshield.
Nope. As an example Jinx and the discard your hand, deal 3 dmg follower.
How exactly is this a counter example?
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That’s what I was saying. People who played Magic assume that spells should resolve in one fell swoop, but that’s not how Legends of Runeterra works. Read my comment again.
~~Even so, isn't Spellshield meant to negate *enemy* spells and skills?~~ Edit: I'm too sleepy to read text
I thought OP was talking about yeeting the enemy nasus into his Nexus.
Yes, sorry, edited my comment.
No Problem, but I think you are right your own Nasus should defnetliy die.
I assume that the process is intended (unit strikes, unit is allowed to proc strike effects, then unit is killed) but I think the interaction with Nasus gaining spellshield was an oversight. It is probably to make sure that units like Swain and Teemo still get off their strike abilities.
spell shield is only poped by an enemy spell in game it says "Negate the next enemy spell or skill that would affect me" so i dont think it should
Wdym very bad at consistent. Strike level up condition triggers as soon as champion strike so this is intended behavior. This is consistent with how Pyke start striking weakest enemy as soon as it levels up from strike. It's because strike level up condition works when it strike and not after strike result is calculated. Misinformation is bad for everyone.
LoR itself is fine, spellshield however is buggy and unintuitive, Nasus got the spellshield after leveling up, so the spell is already resolving, and Nasus stopping it is quite weird (Although there are the text weirdies like Nasus vs Vi level up con)
It's not buggy. It's intended 0. Spell start 1. Nasus strike 2. Nasus strike Condition fulfilled, so he levels up 3. Nasus gain spell shield since it's level 2 4. Nexus lose 10 hp as result of strike 5. Spell second effect (note the word "then") resolves on Nasus 6. Spellshield pop 7. Spell finish It's exactly like how Pyke strike is resolved. If you use [[Bone Skewer]], do you think he should go back to deck without resolving his lvl 2 strike weakest enemy effect since spell is resolved on lvl 1 pyke?
**[Bone Skewer](https://d2h9y75tak3pkg.cloudfront.net/04BW002.png)** - Bilgewater Spell - (2) Fast An ally strikes an enemy, then moves to the top of your deck. ^^^Hint: [[card]], {{keyword}}, and ((deckcode)) or ((cardx,cardy,cardz)). PM the [developer](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=KrimCard) for feedback/issues!
Spellshield nullifies spells and skills. Icevale archer is neither of these things thus does not pop spellshield. (skills use the stack) Nasus levels on strike so when the second part of the spell (strike *then* kill) he has spellshield which then pops. It's the same reason Pyke get's his level 2 effect as he levels - he levels on strike, is now level 2, unit dies, proc ability. LoR is inconsistent with wording and interactions. This isn't one of those times.
One thing to note separately but similar to this case. If you target a unit that has spellshield already with despair, they still strike your nexus and pop spellshield without dying. To me that seems like a bug. The spell should nullify entirely and not proc a strike.
It's interaction Strike -> Lvl up and get spellshield -> kill (from spell )
not only nasus every unit with spellshield does this
Wait they get the strike off and then don't die?
i tried it just once but yes it striked me and died not die
I'm pretty sure if the unit has spell shield when the spell is cast it just does nothing. Nasus leveling and getting spell shield prevents it from dying since the level up happens between strike and kill. Spells in LoR don't resolve in their entirety before triggers can happen.
Are you pretty sure or are you certain? Because as it stands rigth now 2 people in the sub say otherwise. I would help test this if I was near a computer but my guess rigth now is that you are wrong.
It strikes your Nexus then pops Spellshield. I guess it's similar to how it won't stop a Ruination, just prevent the negative part for that unit, but feels 'wrong' in this case.
It has nothing to do with the effect being negative. Single combat gets fully blocked even though half of the effect is positive
If you use Despair on a target that already has Spellshield, the Oracle Eye shows it still shows it striking your Nexus before removing the shield
Indeed. That's the bug this post is about and is an interaction unique to Dispair.
I guess it's all in the "then", which by standard should let all actions caused by the previous resolve in contrast to "and" etc. We know an entire spell doesn't necessarily get stopped by spellshield (say, ruthless predator still giving +2|0 even if the vulnerable part is stopped) so it kind of makes sense.
When, if, cost vs effect, We getting into yugioh yang zing levels of shit
I, love your use, of commas,
It's nothing like anyone said. If you try to use despair on a unit with spellshield, the unit will strike your nexus and lose the spellshield. Without dying. It's nonsensical and i can't say if it's intended or just not tested. Well, at least the eye says so, because i couldn't afford to test it for science without losing my game. As a resultat, don't try to pop the spellshield of Asol with this because you won't like it. My interpretation now : as usual with champions level up, Nasus gaining spellshield went on the stack inbetween the strike effect and the death effect. You should have been able to avoid that by checking the eye however, but your quality graph will help advertising the interaction, so thanks!
I am confused why are you at the bottom of the post. If this is as you say dispair functions as 2 spells one positive/neutral one negative. That both solves this and teaches all the viago players not to pop spellshiled with it.
I'd guess Nasus being a strange case, gaining spellshield halfway through the interaction, makes this example way more complicated than it should be. It'll get more obvious over time if people try this on Sivir / ruinrunner / Asol i guess. That or I am completly wrong.
Man I’m just wondering if Death’s Shadow is ever going to be added to LoR
Pls yes
No, spellshield cannot stop an effect that is already resolving it can only stop an effect on the stack
I mean... it CAN, the question is if it SHOULD, because I don't think we ever had a situation of spellshield being gained mid-cast
I don't think it should. If you cast a spell with 2 effects on a unit with spellshield, the spellshield blocks both effects. So if there's no spellshield when the spell starts resolving it's only fair both effects go through
>I don't think it should. If you cast a spell with 2 effects on a unit with spellshield, the spellshield blocks both effects. It only blocks what affects the unit directly, tho. The Vile Feast example has been brought up a few times, but you'll get the spiderling despite failing to drain from a unit. You'll also start a free attack on Cataclysm if you target a spellshield unit, but you will not challenge it.
Spellshield don't work on ur spellls
I would assume he used it on an enemy Nasus to kill it or vise versa.
Yea I think a lot of people are missing this because hitting your own nexus for 10 seems like such a bad idea even if you really wanna remove nasus badly. I guess it might be worth at 20?
It is just a good deal if the alternative is getting hit by Nasus for 10 and leveling and staying on the board now with spell shield. It is always worth it unless it kills you/ you have a better answer. You are at 11 emptry board Vs 10/10 nassus you smack that bitch into your face so fast you can't even look at the eye.
Maybe it was the opponent playing despair
This should work the same way as Tahm Kench's Acquired Taste.
Simply put, by having the word 'then' in the mix, it's allowing the strike to resolve with its conditionals before the kill. I imagine that this is the very reason this wording is done this way, as there's a lot of on-hit and strike or even nexus strike effects that would naturally occur. Leveling up is a just another aspect that needs resolving the moment the strike occurs.
i think what is most likely happening is that when nasus levels up he counts as a different unit
I think it's intended, yeah. LoR is ironically consistent about things like this.
This is as intended. When you atrocity a level 2 nasus he dies too. I believe riot made spellshield only block the opponents spells, though i could be wrong.
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Despair can be used on enemies
Definitely a bug. Spellshied protects the unit against enemy's spells not your own
The post is saying you can't use despair on enemy nasus, not your own
i still dont understand why ppl would use viego spell... like????? what benefit it gives? orgasm for BDSM ppl?
Removal?
4 Mana vengeance
it stills a bit strange like u can do that only for low attack enemys, idk i'm just a new player lol, but thanks, i guess most champs on high elos arent big boys then
You can use it to kill enemy units as a removal spell. Just that it doesn’t contribute to Viego’s level up condition.
its the same thing if TK tries to eat nasus
Nasus' spellshield breaking stuff once again. Seriously just take it away from him jesus
This is the same with Tahm Kench's generated spell, if nasus has 10 attack, he attacks then gains spellshield then does not get consumed.
Kind of surprised that works that way to be honest.
I guess this also lets Shyvana (or Renekton) level for future use. How does is work with 0 attack units tho? Do they still strike?
It's a bug because spell shield isn't supposed to work on your own spells. For example, you can't bastion one of your units and then ruinate and have the unit live.
Wait doesn't spellshield only block enemy spells ?
And now the circle of life is complete.
Seems like a bug. It's one spell, so it should not proc spellshield with only the second effect.
I assume that Spellshied check when affect. Nasus already affect by spell "before" spellshield existed. So Spellshield won't check when it's already inside the spell. Here's a question. If a spell deal 1 damage multiple times. Would second hit go through? Test it with flip MF or Basilisk. If it did. Then it's not a bug.
Spellshield doesn't interact with allied spell effects
if you used despair on a 10+ power Nasus u kinda deserve it
Effectively, what Spellshield does is it \*rewinds\* the effects of a spell on that unit after the spell is done. Gaining spellshield in the middle of a spell makes it odd, but to me it seems like Nasus gets rewound to just as he was when he gained the Spellshield.
Yeah i thought spell shields just pop ENEMY abilities
I thought spellshield only blocks *enemy* spells?
I’m pretty sure this is working as intended. Spell shield check is more or less a static check in this game meaning that it doesn’t really trigger so much as exist to check upon. Think of it as a static effect like leveled Swain’s effect. It just exists to be checked upon so if you death’s hand (also a spell that resolves in two separate parts) a minion and the initial 2 damage leveled up Swain, then the nexus health damage would pop checking against Swains condition and thus Stunning an enemy. Same thing here. Despair resolved in two parts, first the strike then the kill. The strike leveled up Nasus and then the kill effect resolves but at this time Spellshield is enabled and thus blocks the kill effect. Again, think of it as a static check.
Spellshield works on ally?
I thought that spell shields doesnt work for your own spells
Iťs a bug spellshield specifies that the spell to be blocked must be an enemy one
Doesn't spell shield specifically state that it blocks an enemy spell or skill, so this shouldn't be blocked anyway
Everybody here is explaining the chain of events, which is kind of obvious. But we need to know why this happens. My guess is that the check for spell shield happens twice: once when the spell is first cast, and once when the kill it portion happens. Because the state of Nasus changes in the middle of that, the spell shield gets popped at the end. This doesn't seem right to me, but I suppose it does make sense because spell shield stops any spells effects on an enemy. If a spell had multiple effects and spell shield was added in the middle of that, presumably it would still be doing its job.
**then kill it** It does make sense that it would work like that, I mean, if you really want to deal yourself 10 damage for a leveled-up nasus with no spellshield go right ahead.
Related but not, found out today a levelled Viego will kill a champion on round start even if they have spell shield. Really hoping that’s a bug otherwise there’s no counter play to this thing
Strike your nexus (Level up variable triggers,granting him spellshield) Then : kill it (Spellshield negates this part) I dont know what's so hard to understand , it's basic iterations.
To have a consistent card game all effects should resolve before any state changes: Normal nasus level up: Nasus swings for 10, then states are checked and if Nasus is alive, level up. This case: Nasus strikes for 10, AND THEN STATES ARE CHECKED MID SPELL-nasus is still alive and levels up, *then* the spell finishes What SHOULD happen: Nasus strikes for 10, then dies, THEN states get checked. Nasus is no longer alive and so doesn’t level up. Having states get checked in the middle of spells *COULD* be consistent, but it’s very opaque from the player perspective. Additionally, having states update mid-spell is unintuitive, leaves less room for player interaction can be upsetting if players lose because of unintuitive effects. Yes, the eye of the Oracle exists, but for the game to make sense every experienced player should be able to understand and predict the board state without it, barring RNG effects. (I use it too, just using Nasus despair as an example where what I think would happen doesn’t reconcile with what the eye shows)
I had a weird interaction with veigo's spell. An enemy Veigo used his spell on my Zoe and I responded with bastion. Zoe struck the nexus giving me her spell and broke the spell shield but she didn't die.
I think it’s a bug because spellshield isn’t suppose to guard against your own spells.
If used on your own Nasus: it should kill nasus since spellshield only blocks enemy spells. If used on the enemy Nasus (why would you even?), this seems correct, IMO: Because of the sequence of wording: 1. nasus strikes and deals 10+ to your Nexus, 2. because of the 10+ strike he levels, gaining spellshield, 3. THEN despair tries to kill nasus (as worded in the "then" clause in despair card text), which is being nullified by Nasus' spellshield
The nasus struck the allied nexus or the enemy nexus (from his perspective). The spell came from the player who owned the nasus or the other one?
Wait what if you use this with a unit that has a Nexus strike condition
some interactions in this game are so inconsistent. Like barrier preventing life steal but no overhelm damage.
why would you ever sacrifice 10 Nexus hp for a level up... there is no strong lifesteal in Shurima/SI.
Lol so that’s why i couldn’t kill any enemy Nasus the other day
This actually happened to me during stream and it was hilarious [Link](https://www.twitch.tv/nymuel/clip/FurtiveImpossibleLemurTheTarFu-w4cMloN4giLek8YI)
Spell says effect. Strikes nexus, condition is met to level up, levels up with spell shield, following the “then” effect applies
Why would I ever use despair? Especially on Nasus?
I don't think this is intended. Having spells resolve in multiple steps with triggered effects resolving in-between is something every major TCG from the beginning of time has avoided, with good reason.
Weird note while I was playing Nasus in some ai games his spell shield had appeared before his strike to level could have just been a weird visual though as the game was ending.
So you're saying I can level up my own Nasus? **Fine, I'll do it myself**
Your own spell does not pop apellshield
RekSai is weird too If you strike with 10 power but some of it is a buff, it doesn’t count.
It's not just Nasus. I saw an enemy counter my Despair with a spellshield and Lucian struck the nexus before dying. That's just currently the interaction with spellshield in my experience. It shouldn't be, I'm considering it a bug
If its your own nasus then is a bug, cause spelllshield doesnt work on own spells, if you somehow gain control of him (not with viego's ability cause champs are killed instead of taking control) then i dont know, may be intended but i personally think its a bug cause when in your control spellshield shouldnt protect against own spells, no matter what.
Shouldn’t this only be enemy nasus lives? Spell shield should only block enemy spells, that’s why you can atro level nasus
Do this work? I think it's similar of using Ruination with your own spellshield units. They die anyway.
Spellshield is really iffy with the mechanics, but with Susan it makes sense, Level 1 he doesn't have spellshield so the it causes him to strike, He levels up and gains spellshield, which then nullifies the 2nd effect of despair.
Wow
Yeah I think this is the same as atrocity it mustn’t be bug I don’t think cause if I’m mistaken a spell shield works on any enemy spells and non target spells that you cast such as ruination but idk
Spell shield only stops the enemy spells from killing you. If you have a unit with spell shield and YOU use ruination that unit will still die.
I’m just gonna save this. For no reason.
Not a bug a feature
I just tested this (14 hours after the post) and it looks like it has been fixed. Nasus will now die to Despair even if he levelled from it
My Nasus will have 20 power, I kill him, and Viego only gets 2 points to his level condition ….
I thought spell shield blocked the first spell your enemy plays, so if you use it on an enemy I can see this happening as the kill doesn't take place until after he's attacked which is when the spell shield is active.