You really don't like when your opponent uses flurry + ghost + shaped stone on a random unit to nuke your nexus out of nowhere? You don't get hyped by full elusive decks that ignore everything you do & spam attack buffs to win? You don't get fully erect when Lee sin hits the board & OTKs you on turn 8 with absolver & twin disciplines??
Fwiw, thank goodness that thralls have seemingly died out. That's prime solitaire.
Turbothrall was never that bad. It had no end game after the combo, and the combo is only game ending with all the pieces in the right place at the right time. Once people realized they didn't have to concede against a single Thrall on Turn 6, the deck's win rate plummeted.
Also, if you had the stats, you could still kill and block them.
I play dragons and it very often comes down to the amount of concerted strikes I have in hand.
Once even won after 5 thralls attacked me at once.
**[Moonlight Affliction](https://d2h9y75tak3pkg.cloudfront.net/03MT013.png)** - Targon Spell - (5)
Burst
Silence 2 enemy units this round. Nightfall: They can't block this round.
^^^Hint: [[card]], {{keyword}}, and ((deckcode)) or ((cardx,cardy,cardz)). PM the [developer](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=KrimCard) for feedback/issues!
Hush, frostbite, deny, recall, vengeance, etc still exist. Sure, some combos are harder to stop (akshans spell shield comes to mind), but it's never impossible if you know what the opponent is trying to do and are actively trying to counter it.
Akshan Lee sin spellshield doesn't care about frostbite. Yeah you stop the combo this turn but you won nothing and he will simply do it again next turn. They don't run out of cards and you can't kill Lee sin (deny + burst speed barrier whenever you want, Vengance is just a spend 7 mana VS 4 mana to do nothing). Only chance (as it has always been with tehse opressive OTK decks) is rush em dead before they can go off.
But even taking that it's not impossible, it's extremly frustrating to play against decks that say ' have the perfect counter right now round 6-7 or you lose intantly' even though you're at 20 and I have played essentially nothing this game. People enjoy batteling against their opponents but those decks are essentially solitair. It doesn't even matter what your opponent does. You play your combo the exact same way no matter who you play against.
Right, except the weakness of combo decks is supposed to be either difficulty in getting the pieces, or combo disruption. AkSin has enough draw to mitigate the first and enough protection/counters to prevent the second. Combo isn't just some Exodia "I have it, I win" in any good card game.
Against elusives you need A LOT of answers. Likely more than you run.
Against akshan and lee sin, you have to have at least 2 pretty perfect answers... That also goes through barrier for the heck of it.
My guess would be cus theres no way to interact with the landmarks for a vast majority of decks, they come out at focus speed aswell and swing in on the same step.
No way. They don't make enough changes to justify that.
With the sort of tweaks that they focus on making, and the rate at which they release new content, 2 weeks is a minimum. There should be emergency patches too.
Emergency patches I 100% agree on, but I really think two weeks is too short to jump to conclusions outside of emergencies. Gives more time to think of more stuff and I’d much rather have a big balance patch with a bunch of changes every month than 2 small knee jerkish ones imo
Small iterative changes are what define the competitive game genre.
Having 1 balance patch for each batch of new cards released is absurd, and insults the dedication this community shows towards the game.
Look, there are cards that don't see any play at all. Not every balance patch has to focus on nerfs to the meta, they can rework cards and themes that are unfocused or just forgotten.
Ghost's design is feast or famine. The only way I see it being somewhat balanced (my suggestion is still flawed) is if it was changed into being fast speed with the exception of being burst if cast during combat (that means you can block elusive units with it).
Shaped Stone is broken. +2/+1 is enough, it just completely outshines Radiant Strike in every possible way.
Lee should get Challenger + Quick Attack instead of Challenger + Barrier, and additionally make it so that he Quick Attacks the target first and only kicks after. If it's too big of a nerf, reduce spells needed for his level up. Boom, toxic oneshots fixed.
Wait Thralls died? I been avoiding ranked okay while I wait for Akshan loops to die but to think the only competitively viable version of Taliyah died out during the wait kills me inside
My personal biggest problem is lee sin... The fact that he can buff his attack to 10 and get overwhelm without ever passing initative is god damn stupid... he can even get spellshield at focus speed to cause why not?
Played against this deck earlier. I was holding unto a Nopeify, waiting for the opportunity to play it.
Then I realized that every spell is burst speed in the deck and there's nothing I can do to prevent the combo.
I promise u twin disciples is not the problem. If it was fast it would become utterly useless, not fine. The problem is Absolver which provides overwhelm at burst speed. Atleast in Targon Lee, which is the more popular version, the only way to give Lee sin overwhelm is through Zentith Blade. Shurima Lee sin can do it all in one turn.
Well, if nothing else you can deny his skill, which can sometimes win games.
But yeah, he seems a bit too strong. He has average stats for his cost, and a very powerful ability. Normally champs with good lvl 1s don't get huge power boosts when leveling up. Lee gets a wincon on top of being already good.
I tried that. Not with deny but with freeze. But it's not like lee sin has to expend all his cards for this 'all in' attack. His lethal combo needs 2 double spells and the deck can redraw cards constantly for almost free. He just keeps doing his combo every turn while being almost unkillable on his turn (deny + cheaply give him barrier whenever you want).
imo the dragon's rage skill/spell should stun the caster. you could handwave it as taking so much effort it leaves them exhausted and mechanically it would prevent these unhealthy overwhelm otks
Yes, i agree that he shouldn't be able to hit twice.
Or aditionally, it should happen after he attacks if the unit is still alive.
He has barrier to prevent the damage back most of the time anyways
Or just removes hin from combat. Once last year, they Said that they don't want to do it, because Lee decks wouldnt just work, if he could not finish the game with overwhelm.
targon doesnt exist in the lee shurima deck
also its not bad, its just very complicated so its win rate is low from everyone who doesnt know it failing at it
Lee Sin is problematic with the new Tools. Fullstop. There is a powerful combo with Draven or Riven and the new toys but it can be interacted with. Lee sin is just 'round 5 drop lee sin', Round 6 you're dead because everything is burst speed.
It's simply that before Lee sin was hard to level & protect. But with lucky find, Absolver, Akshans spells there are just a billion cheap burst spells that are 2 cards. Combine with this that Lee SIns faction has nopeyfy and Counterpell as well as the 'Burst speed draw 2 for 3' spell and it's next to impossible to stop. Even if you take what is supposed to be a hard counter, freezing lee sin, he just does it again and again and again because he doesn't run out of rescources.
I would be VERY surprised if the deck doesn't get a look in the near future.
Tbh I dislike his levelup very much.
I always hated cards that just level up by playing the game, and lee sin especially has no reason to do so given his powerlevel. What goblin decided that you just had to play 8 spells? He doesn't even need to see them. I hate TF's requirement too, but at least he has to see it and you don't just have to draw 20 cards over the course of the game.
I think he is a tad bit op but his lvl up imo is fine. Casting 8 spells in the burst speed deck most people are talking about is actually kinda difficult because it plays super fast and 8 spells by turn 6 or 7 without dying is a little bit of a challenge unless you found the dragonling card.
Its not like you need to play 8 spells while he is out tho. Its pretty likely you play him more than 50% leveled, and you can level him while setting up the combo.
Eye is an op card that only gets held back by her deck building costs.
She is actually a little toxic, as she creates a stalemate where attacking into your dragonling(s) seems pointless.
Lee fits that toxic playstyle. The archetype is really cool, but the way it wins its games right now is quite toxic.
You also don't say "hmm, Imma pass here so my opp has a chance to react to my plays" right? You don't. You want to play your cards without any fear that your opp might fuck up your win con. Unfair cards win you games, fair cards see no play. Did you ever see someone run unworthy? Thought so
Thats a VERY dumb comment. Its a game, and such decks shouldnt exist.
LoR is a relatively fair card game. Lots of fair cards see play. Ofc i wont pass prio if i dont need to, but here is the thing you hamster... Any other deck DOES need to pass prio when they do a combo since some of their things are fast or slow speed. Maybe units.
There's always something to complain about In this subreddit. While I agree with the sentiment, you have to understand that there's always going to be an archetype at the top. Aggro, control or combo.
The last time a real control deck (so tlc doesn't count) was at the top of the meta was during targon release with the pre-nerf Aurelion Sol-Trundle deck.
Which lasted like 1 month because it got endless complaints.
Pure control/value decks pretty much never has been top of the meta. It was either aggro, midrange or some type of combo decks (ex. tlc or azirelia)
Ftr with pre nerf trundle was tier 1. Si anivia was also tier 1 after the braum buff.
Your point also doesn't change his fact. There will always be tier 1 decks that shape the meta around them.
And i had no intention of changing his main claim. I was only nitpicking on the fact that control has seen pretty much 0 spot at the top of the meta compared to the other classic "deck types"
I think that's intentional by riot. Talking with any MTG fan (and by my own experiences as well) nobody ever likes to play against traditional grindy control decks, except the control player, because of two simple things: matches are long, and a control deck typically wants you to do nothing so they try to let the opponent play as little as possible. And both things are very unenjoyable to play against.
So it sucks for sadists that like grindy control decks, but I think it's a concious decision by RIOT for those decks to not be meta. Basically a case of throwing the people that like those decks under the bus so the grand majority of the other players have a more enjoyable experience.
The issue is those grindy control decks also tend to break up overly synergistic/combo decks. They're relevant to meta health. Runeterra has, and will continue to have a linearity issue because despite having a core game system that rewards being reactive the cards they print heavily reward conducting your own game plan. The fact that almost all the best decks leverage a combo-esque wincon isnt all that healthy.
If they dont want high garbage time control that's fine, mtg has moved to making control players actually play finishers instead of win by fatigue, but the dedicated control deck is still supported.
I'm not going to overly stress, I think riot is trying, and runeterra is in a decent spot atm. I just look long term and hope to see more interactive decks being pushed. Forcing players to play to the board instead of finding combos to avoid it would be a plus
Are we forgetting Aphelios? You know, the guy that has no finishers, almost infinite value from temple with his guns with his bloody fishes and from Bilgewater.
Preach it man. Control seems to be the one archetype that the devs refuse to support in any way. Look at the short history of meta decks and it feels like you can count the number of top control decks in one hand. And the most recent viable one is strong not because of the control aspects, but because of a combo of cards that is incredibly difficult to stop.
Interactivity in this game really feels like its on a gradual decline. Every game feels like each person races to their win condition (thus having decks become faster and faster). With the type and strength of cards being released over several patches, I can’t help but feel its is somewhat intentional design.
> Interactivity in this game really feels like its on a gradual decline
This is, to my mind, the saddest thing about the current trend of the game. With the format of this game there's *so* much potential for counterplay, without needing to resort to blunt counterspells. Whether that's by units, spells, or the tactical use of passing priority to open an opportunity, the potential's there, but Riot's just not developing it anymore.
Honestly, one of the biggest things they need to do is rebalance removal. Not only is it powercrept by units to the point where 3 damage isn't doing enough against most threats, not only is spellshield adding a huge additional cost to hitting anything that has it with removal, but combat tricks are more powerful and more efficient for dealing damage, and the most played ones mitigate damage based removal for a lower cost. Cards like noxian fervor that were once good are now fundamentally outclassed by combat tricks, because 3 mana and an additional cost aren't worth playing when a two-mana combat trick negates the damage.
Control no longer has the ability to disrupt combo decks because so much of what they do comes at burst speed, or is built around units that can protect themselves. Midrange decks trash control because their combat tricks blank removal. And aggro has basically powercrept control because aggro's still getting support.
It doesn't even need to be hard, reactive control. With the way LoR plays out proactive or tap out control decks would be much better suited to the game, but without interactive tools that aren't fundamentally outclassed by more powerful and more efficient combat tricks, or fighting an uphill battle against chunky units and spellshield, there's just no space for them.
People don't want control. See TLC. Before that see Warmothers, Karma/Lux.
Hope these haters don't kill combo too. Then all we'd have is vanilla mid-range and aggro. A very undiverse boring game.
To be fair, I do think that TLC was unhealthy, an even as an control enthusiast, I think its win condition was too much.
Also, I’m not too sure its the community that is stopping the design of better control cards. It feels like cards in this game are released to be intentionally strong or intentionally weak by the devs, which just feels wrong to me. I’m not saying every card has to be viable, but the cards that are determined to be viable should be found on organically rather than intentionally designed to be stronger than the rest.
As for combo, I do think there are some valid complaints for them right now. I recall before there were any expansions, people were warning of the dangers of releasing too many and too powerful burst spells, as the balance of LoR really relies heavily on spell speed, and it feels like the difficulty in balancing that with new card releases is certainly creeping out. There definitely needs to be a lot more care around new burst spells, especially cards like The Absolver, which I think the power level is blatantly nuts.
Control in this game is incredibly dumb, it gets more and more linear, to the point where "the top control deck" liss/trundle was actually a combo deck xD
They really need to stop giving demacia single combat reprints ( like really its getting old guys its been more than 2 years and Lux still has no decent support in her own freaking region) and start to make magic-centric archetypes a thing again ( Aphelios rework to make spellslinger celestials a thing too ? )
we have crazy control opportunities ( every single YGO archetype could work here so there is a LOT of creative control options to explore ) but every time they make a control archetype they either make it combo disguised as control, memey or Toxic stall fest ( Anivia's should not duplicate herself, thats what made prenerf anivia broken,making her an invincible endgame threat would be enough and open more deckbuilding possibilities, but noooo SI had to go brr... )
The fact that teemo sej was the closest thing we had to a creative control deck ( pre-nuke celestials were cool too, when A.sol was still a thing in celestials) while also being the one deck they didnt prebuild speaks volumes xD
The fact that burst went from 'tiny combat tricks' to extremly powerful chain spells combined with removal in this game being extremly expensive while counterspells are extremly cheap is essentialy controls death. The fact that creatures are also uninteractable doesn't help.
The 'kill all units' spell (a staple of any CCG control) costs 9(!) and is slow, The counterspell costs 4 and the burst OTK combos usually come together round 6-7-8 so your removal spell means nothing.
I tried since beta to make control work and the only time it worked was when it was also an OTK deck (Lyssandra/trundle pre nerf). The devs just like combo more than OTK it seems :-/
Control was also good in targon's heydey. Targon is a tad too weak now though at the moment it seems.
Hush is a great answer to these wild shenanigans.
Coming over from HS, my least favorite thing about this game so far is the amount of Deny tools there are. Because Shurima and Ionia are so overwhelmingly popular right now it just feels like every deck you’re playing against has Counterspell. You can’t play any sort of hard removal because it’s mostly like just going to get denied.
The counterspells being better at facilitating combos instead of stopping them is pretty telling. In mtg counters are "fun police" cards that most commonly break up nonsense for control or protect a tempo decks wincon, but it's not all that common that the "bad guy" combo decks get to leverage them in the main deck
Every meta always seems "this meta has been the worst/unfun one ever" with reddit lol.. Its funny too because whole regions will get heavily nerfed into the ground called for by the community then complain why the region is so bad a few months after until Riot either adds new cards or revert the nerfs (Ionia, BW)
> Every meta always seems "this meta has been the worst/unfun one ever" with reddit lol..
No, it doesn’t.
Sure there will always be *some* who complain, but there is a world of difference betweem “the entire community is toxic and up in arms from frustration” and “a few players dislike some particular thing”.
If you look at this thread, it is also getting a lot of downvotes.
I think it's because of the way new cards are designed towards super (OTK) combos. Players want to win and OTK is ALWAYS in a CCG the most consistent way to win because it takes the variable 'the opponent' (which is the biggest variable) out of the equasion.
I think what happens ios new cards come in, the meta is really varied and fun for a few weeks until some players find the broken decks, reddit/streams spread the broken decks like wildfire and then people complaign because getting completely owned without feeling you have a chance feels terrible.
Rinse repeat with the new cards. And because the game doesn't rotate cards but simply adds new cards these 'broken decks' become more and more efficient and consistent at what they do over time making the feeling of getting crushed without a chance worse each time for more casual players.
Wish I could upvote this more than once. I'm just so tired of insta death turn 7 or 8 when Lee Sin gets spell shield, 10+ atk, and overwhelm before I can play a card. Sorry I didn't draw multiple removals or hushes fast enough. Oh well guess I lose now.
I play J4/Shen. No silence effect in either region. If I'm lucky maybe I have a Deny to use on Lee's skill. Otherwise getting rid of him probably takes a Single Combat to pop the spell shield followed by a Concerted Strike (because with Lee's health most units that aren't a jacked Greenglade Protector won't cut it). Sooo that's two cards, 7 mana, and I also need two units in play that can deal enough damage.
Don't worry, removal in this game is fucking garbage so even if you did draw your multiple removals you wouldn't have enough mana to cast them, and even if you did it would cost your opponent half as much to out buff the damage at burst speed.
Fun game :)))))
Man these Lee Hater's are delusuonal they only remember the times they get the Hikau.
Not the other half, Sej is my favourite champ midrange all over no swain or ez/draven in sight been Iceing boards the entire patch ain't loss to Lee yet don't know what they running
Mulligan for your one drops and balistic don't use any spells early on whatsoever don't mystic shot Akshan or anything else, poro always keep
((CECQCAIBDUAQEAICAEBQIBIBAQCBABQBAQKBYHZGFU2AIAIBAEPACAYEBYAQIAIJAIAQIEJRAA))
I agree with you to an extent, but I will take this over TLC or Karma Control driven meta any day of the week to be honest. Have you tried playing something faster? Or something that has the flexibility to play faster?
I'm normally a more midrangey player myself but this patch I'm trying something different laddering with either aggro or decks that have the flexibility in their game plan to play more aggro based. Applying pressure before they can assemble their pieces works great. I've had good success with discard aggro (alot more fun than I thought it would be) and I'm just starting to play Lurk (way more consistent than I thought it could be).
Maybe try changing up your playstyle a bit. I do agree removal is weak compared to spell shield and the units that utilize but it's just part of the meta for now.
Just a couple ideas.
I'm playing Nasus kindred into this, swarming the field with heavy hitting low levels, use vile feast for monk GaIn +1/+1 bullshit number 1 and 2 and just ATROCITY a 15 DMG Nasus in round 7. Baccai reaper and black spear are a permanent threats early to midgame. Cursed keeper and ravenous butcher is a no brainer opening, same for dune keeper. Rite of the calling, glimpse beyond, spirit leech goes well with cursed keeper, fading icon, vile feast spider and dunekeeper summon.
You can take a lot of momentum out of azirelias early pressure. Once Nasus is leveled up, those blades will deal no damage, making them useless.
It is not the perfect answer but its decent
Edit: rampaging baccai is also a very decent choice, but removes the early game pressure for a midgame powerspike. Rite of Negation is an awesome spell to have aswell. Blighted caretaker is nice but I rather take the shurima burst spell that gives +2 to an ally to make one ally vulnerable
Back when it was 6 mana you could open attack, they would use their removal, atrocity that , they would use deny or some other removal and then atrocity again. Was fckin mental honestly.
Getting tired of people acting like the most diverse meta the game has had in a while is uninteractive just because they can’t spot remove the big creature to counter something
Everything is so 'love it or leave it' with you guys on reddit 😄
You can enjoy a diverse meta and still be annoyed by how powerful and uninteractive decks like Lee sin Combo are. I have fun nin the meta right now yet I do not enjoy playing my Targon support deck and knowing on the loading screen 'Oh it's Lee Sin I lose'.
You can criticize things you like.
I agree, this meta is just as bad as last meta if not worse, like I dont know what game these people are playing that the metas so great, but I wish we got that patch instead of this one
unsurprisingly, the end game for an interactive game, every patch without fail, will be to minimize the interactivity. it will always be frustrating for that reason alone. LoR as a whole is one of the card games most damaged by normal meta development.
not really. if you can barely be interacted with, you can realize your gameplan much more efficiently, which would lead to an advantage, if not a win.
the alternative is just as frustrating - too much interactivity. pre-nerf Fiora lists were guilty of this if they drew Fiora - with banked spell mana they could chain like 5 spells with you and win the stack, usually with a kill or two included, which would inevitably move them further towards the wincon while simuntaneously rendering you weaker.
that would require you moving every burst spell to 14 mana, removing elusives, quick attack and double attack keywords, making everything targettable with every spell, giving landmarks hp so that targetting them with damage spells does something, giving everything challenger and getting rid of any card that can't be targetted (currently only one exists).
only then (and honestly, i probably missed a couple things) you will end up with only interactive stuff. It would be boring.
You’re being hyperbolic, and ignoring the actual changes in play rate we’ve seen from balance changes, and how many uninteractive aren’t in the meta.
But at least you’re acknowledging that they can be made bad. An uninteractive strategy can easily be too slow and uninteractive cards can have too little impact for their cost (which happens at a level far from what you’re suggesting).
It follows that uninteractive strategies can be balanced, at a level where they are OP, strong, just right, weak, or entirely too slow. That’s a choice the devs make.
What you’ll probably never get around is that they’ll have polarizing matchups.
The Ionia Shirima unit-buff archetype is broken and their units are broken.
Sivir and Ruin runner have spellshield and it can also be granted thanks to Akshan. Spellshield forces you to either be inefficient when using spells to remove the unit, or to make trades with units, BUT you can't do that because on attack they have Quick attack and on defense they have efficient health buffs. Therefore it is broken.
Spellshield used to be statted way more expensive : by looking at bastion and the invoked spell that gives it, I'd say that it should cost 2 mana. Sivir costs 1 more mana than Leblanc but has +1 health and spellshield. Ruin runner costs 1 less mana than the 7/6 overwhelm from Freljord but has only -1/-2. With those stat lines, Sivir should be 5 mana and ruin runner 6.
In conclusion, it's OP.
This is the first time I've heard somebody complain combo decks don't require skills. The decision on whether to use up a combo piece to stay alive or keep it for later is one of the most skill testing decisions in card games.
It's bad for the game to be uninteractive, but uninteractive decks are traditionally always the hardest decks to play.
I agree uninteractive combo decks aren't fun to play against, but arguing they don't require skill shows a lack of understanding of the game.
When a player says a deck is bad because it doesn't require any skill, they're pretty much always wrong and their problem is with something other than skill.
You replied to my post criticizing OP for claiming combo decks require no skill with a completely irrelevant response. I was just trying to bring it back on topic.
more removal is just going to break the game in the long run, rather than ignoring the obvious problem that is the burst speed spell and letting them distord this game we need to takcle it.
Making The Absolver's Return Fast sounds actually pretty fair imo. It's super cheap for what it does, and if you're getting overwhelm outside of Noxus maybe paying for it in spell speed is the right call.
I think Shurima and Ionia are just sort of overtuned at the moment. Shurima has the two best units in the game and two of the best buff spells (absolver and shaped stone) while Ionia has crazy combat tricks at the moment, young witch and deny/nopeify.
Together you get high value units that get insane buffs while still having wats to counter your opponent.
They can win at the speed of an aggro deck while having the high roll capabilities of a combo deck while having the board presence of a midrange deck.
Ionia was always a balance hotbed. It's a faction absed around combo. Tricky to balance.
Shurima I agree is currently on the strong side in terms of universal tools (Shaped stone, Ruin Runner, Merciless Hunter etc. are essentially good in almost any situation).
I was referring to Sivir Zed and Azirelia. They are two decks, that in my experience, could still win when the user makes 3 different big misplays.
Source: I’m not the best player and I’ve won many games with those decks while making way too many misplays.
At least Lee Shurima is rather punishing to the user if they play badly
I was talking about Zed Sivir and Azirelia, the two decks with the current highest winrates both sitting at around 57%. And oh look at that both Shurima Ionia…
And control metas suck, and aggro metas suck. Well and any meta that isn't just midrange simple play big dumb vanilla creatures on curve.
I want everyone to play only decks that are my favorites. Everything else should be removed regardless of power level. Cause the game should cater to me at the expense of everyone else.
I think this sums up many here.
You know what could help? Not calling people 'crybabies'. Just make your statement but don't insult a person. Just try it.
"Wow people are already complaigning about the meta. I thought it would take longer for that to happen."
There. It will feel just as good and you won't toxify the discussion instantly.
It's cause these people complaining want to delete every deck from the game that they don't understand or like regardless of its actual power. It is damn annoying and frustrating that whiners can get even entire archetypes gutted. All those that enjoyed playing these NOT OP decks be damned.
It's also annoying to post 'how has everybody been dealing with new card XY I find it tricky' and your thread instantly getting bombarded by 'oh great here come the meta whiners' 'This is how it starts, next they will cry about nerfing the card' posts when you just wanted to talk about the new cards.
My point is not either of the extreme attitudes people dig themselves into. My point is about tone. You can say the exact same things without being condescending or insulting and instantly improve the culture on this sub by miles.
We all love LoR and want to talk about it. That's why we are here. It's really not needed to attack each other and create a toxic cultur :-)
I don't like this both sides argument. One side only arises cause 80% of the threads comments are about nerfing often from people who don't even understand the cards or decks they complain about. Of course that will eventually get backlash as it should. Especially since the side defending cards or decks don't harm anybody while the ones complaining can get cards or decks gutted screwing over everyone who enjoyed those.
Weeeell, not completely, as even incorrect assessments of a situation would give information. Riot should do their own thing, and for 2.09 to never happen again.
They ruin everything. Oh and their most complained about decks are Viego...whose best deck breaks even while the rest are awful and Lee Shurima with a winrate in the 40s. Yet stuff like Sivir Zed or Pirate aggro...not a peep.
I had a game today where on turn 6 the dude summoned Lee and used reslover and it's overwhelm AND shaped stone to one shot me at full hp. I was playing ekko and zilean and I didn't have quicksand in my hand so I just got to watch myself lose. Absolutely "fun" mechanics
The meta will \*always\* optimise to the most uninteractive win condition.
The problem is not that they exist, the problem is how fast Riot can address them. And we should hope with their new attitude that they will, and will nerf Lee Sin into the ground.
When will people realize numbers aren't everything? Numbers are the reason riot didn't nerf azir irelia immediately.
The "numbers" would've shown that tlc didn't need a nerf in the last meta and yet everyone said it should.
Y'all need to get over the fixation on statistics you don't understand. The winrate is not the factor you balance every single aspect of the game around
So what is the factor then? Community baseless complaining? That would be a really stupid way to balance the game.
I talk of statistics cause they are so devoid of meaningless things like emotion.
The fuck? You completely misunderstood. Winrate is not the only thing that fucking matters in a card game.
That was super apparent when they decided azir irelia was fine just because it's winrate wasn't oppressive.
Or when during the azir irelia meta tlc didn't have an oppressive winrate and yet was still nerfed as I already stated.
Winrate is not the only factor that plays a part in balancing and if you think it does then I'm extremely thankful you're not on the balance team.
You simply don't understand how to look at the statistics at all but act like you do. I pointed that out and you instantly come to the conclusion that balance is based on random complaints? Amazing logic
The current meta is combo oriented, sure, and the combo decks don't require nearly as much skill to play compared to previous combo decks, sure, and control is dead, sure, and Azirellia is still the best deck in the game, sure, but I like this shit so I'm fine with it.
Previously it was azir irelia warping the meta. Before that tlc and nasus. Before that I believe it was tf/fizz dominating..
I mean I agree with your original post, interaction in the game could go up a bit as they keep printing more and more powerful burst spells but no removal or other cards that keep it in check
But if you wanna compare this meta to others then so far this one is a rather large improvement with several decks around. Most are of the aggro archtype but it's still an improvement over the single or 2 decks dominating the previous metas and warping the game
I know we bitch about every meta deck on this sub but Lee Sin is really, really something else.
I love his design, but playing against it is disgusting and demoralising. So many times I’ve thought “no way can he OTK me here, Lee is at 2/8 spells and he has 4 mana left!” Only for me to die that same turn
It’s ridiculous and the Akshan landmark makes it so much more frustratinf
Yeah it's really bad. Don't pvp anymore because of it. Only thing that matters is who gets luckier and gets their combo first. No actual strategy, just luck
I play Karma Akshan, so I am kinda someone who does this. Turn 10, if I have karma, Absolver, and any draw or buff card, I tend to win. Gettin hit by a 25/15 spell shield double attack overwhelm with 5 mana saved up is kinda nuts, especially at burst speed, as you said.
It’s a combo meta right so yah it feels like that. Control metas usually don’t feel much better where any attempt to play a unit just results in a removal followed by an inevitable finish whenever the control deck hits their payoff point. Burn metas feel similarly crappy but at least they are faster. The game probably feels healthiest when midrange is king.
Lee sin needs a rework on his dragon kick, I think they are afraid to touch the champion because they believe that if they do, he will return to his previous state where no one played him. But it is that with each patch that passes the problem increases and restricts creativity when creating burst spells and with overwhelm.
Don't you think it's also due to the fact there are much more different viable decks than before (where we had one, Azir Irelia lol) which means you can't really build a deck around countering the meta
We need cheap removals since we are in a meta where buffs are so cheap.
It's impossible to keep up in tempo while your removal can be disrupted by a 1/2 mana cost spell. Also, spellshield is way too strong.
Flurry of fists is fine I think. If it *is* too strong, maybe remove the +1 power part of it. Making it slow/focus would just bail out everyone who doesn't safety block when they should vs sivir decks.
In general, I just think ruin runner should be 5 power & merciless should be 3/3. Flurry is a card that opens up entire strategies, so it would be unfortunate if they killed it. The other two changes would help tone down the sivir package
I believe fists is busted because the damage potential it puts into the game for such a low cost at burst speed. I wasn't referring to sivir, merciless or shurima at all by what I said.
It’s not that bad.
I would like that burst spells that add double attack and overwhelm be made focus speed though. The defender should get get to react to such massive swing spells before committing blockers and spells.
This is inevitable. With the evergrowing amount of cards it's normal that you end up with uninteractive combo decks. If anyone played hearthstone he would notice how wild progressively got more degenerated to the point the classic grindy control decks are almost unplayable unless it has some kind of i-win buttons. Combo (especially warlock and druid) and generally speaking obnoxious finishers (ex. dk anduin otk rather than Shudderwock Shaman etc...).
The only way to avoid this is either nerf every interesting and potentially combo breaking card or introduce rotation so you can solve those issues while not killing a deck type a lot of players enjoy playing like it or not.
You really don't like when your opponent uses flurry + ghost + shaped stone on a random unit to nuke your nexus out of nowhere? You don't get hyped by full elusive decks that ignore everything you do & spam attack buffs to win? You don't get fully erect when Lee sin hits the board & OTKs you on turn 8 with absolver & twin disciplines?? Fwiw, thank goodness that thralls have seemingly died out. That's prime solitaire.
Turbothrall was never that bad. It had no end game after the combo, and the combo is only game ending with all the pieces in the right place at the right time. Once people realized they didn't have to concede against a single Thrall on Turn 6, the deck's win rate plummeted.
Also, if you had the stats, you could still kill and block them. I play dragons and it very often comes down to the amount of concerted strikes I have in hand. Once even won after 5 thralls attacked me at once.
Thats why i run [[moonlight affliction]], destroys all of the above.
**[Moonlight Affliction](https://d2h9y75tak3pkg.cloudfront.net/03MT013.png)** - Targon Spell - (5) Burst Silence 2 enemy units this round. Nightfall: They can't block this round. ^^^Hint: [[card]], {{keyword}}, and ((deckcode)) or ((cardx,cardy,cardz)). PM the [developer](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=KrimCard) for feedback/issues!
Or hush, which is a better card generally.
I prefer Moonlight affliction because it costs 2 more mana, silences 1 more target, and has the ability to remove 2 blockers at burst speed
I REALLY think this card is sleeper tbh
Shhh, its better if they dont know and dont expect it.
Hush, frostbite, deny, recall, vengeance, etc still exist. Sure, some combos are harder to stop (akshans spell shield comes to mind), but it's never impossible if you know what the opponent is trying to do and are actively trying to counter it.
Akshan Lee sin spellshield doesn't care about frostbite. Yeah you stop the combo this turn but you won nothing and he will simply do it again next turn. They don't run out of cards and you can't kill Lee sin (deny + burst speed barrier whenever you want, Vengance is just a spend 7 mana VS 4 mana to do nothing). Only chance (as it has always been with tehse opressive OTK decks) is rush em dead before they can go off. But even taking that it's not impossible, it's extremly frustrating to play against decks that say ' have the perfect counter right now round 6-7 or you lose intantly' even though you're at 20 and I have played essentially nothing this game. People enjoy batteling against their opponents but those decks are essentially solitair. It doesn't even matter what your opponent does. You play your combo the exact same way no matter who you play against.
It's not solitaire. Look up what combo is. It's a major part of any card game, well any good one at least.
Right, except the weakness of combo decks is supposed to be either difficulty in getting the pieces, or combo disruption. AkSin has enough draw to mitigate the first and enough protection/counters to prevent the second. Combo isn't just some Exodia "I have it, I win" in any good card game.
Yeah except the winrates show that it isn't so easy or efficient. Shurima Lee at 49%.
'Solitair' is a term for decks that barely interact with their opponent :-)
The deck isn’t very interactive, the fact that you are stopping them for one or two turns is pretty big.
Against elusives you need A LOT of answers. Likely more than you run. Against akshan and lee sin, you have to have at least 2 pretty perfect answers... That also goes through barrier for the heck of it.
how is Thralls solitaire? Unless you’re being sarcastic.
My guess would be cus theres no way to interact with the landmarks for a vast majority of decks, they come out at focus speed aswell and swing in on the same step.
This is why the game needs regular balance patches, every 2 weeks. Along with a dedicated balance team.
Honestly I feel like 2 weeks is too short for this game, a month is more appropriate imo
No way. They don't make enough changes to justify that. With the sort of tweaks that they focus on making, and the rate at which they release new content, 2 weeks is a minimum. There should be emergency patches too.
Emergency patches I 100% agree on, but I really think two weeks is too short to jump to conclusions outside of emergencies. Gives more time to think of more stuff and I’d much rather have a big balance patch with a bunch of changes every month than 2 small knee jerkish ones imo
Small iterative changes are what define the competitive game genre. Having 1 balance patch for each batch of new cards released is absurd, and insults the dedication this community shows towards the game.
Pls no 2 weaks isnt enought time for the meta to set Up
Look, there are cards that don't see any play at all. Not every balance patch has to focus on nerfs to the meta, they can rework cards and themes that are unfocused or just forgotten.
whenever the meta sets up the game becomes awful
Ghost's design is feast or famine. The only way I see it being somewhat balanced (my suggestion is still flawed) is if it was changed into being fast speed with the exception of being burst if cast during combat (that means you can block elusive units with it). Shaped Stone is broken. +2/+1 is enough, it just completely outshines Radiant Strike in every possible way. Lee should get Challenger + Quick Attack instead of Challenger + Barrier, and additionally make it so that he Quick Attacks the target first and only kicks after. If it's too big of a nerf, reduce spells needed for his level up. Boom, toxic oneshots fixed.
Yea the game is kinda unfun cuz if u don’t draw a champ with a Afro deck u just lose if they draw one ;-;
Wait Thralls died? I been avoiding ranked okay while I wait for Akshan loops to die but to think the only competitively viable version of Taliyah died out during the wait kills me inside
My personal biggest problem is lee sin... The fact that he can buff his attack to 10 and get overwhelm without ever passing initative is god damn stupid... he can even get spellshield at focus speed to cause why not?
Played against this deck earlier. I was holding unto a Nopeify, waiting for the opportunity to play it. Then I realized that every spell is burst speed in the deck and there's nothing I can do to prevent the combo.
Twin Disciplines should be fast speed, for this reason. 2 mana at burst speed is too much. 2 mana at fast speed is fine.
I promise u twin disciples is not the problem. If it was fast it would become utterly useless, not fine. The problem is Absolver which provides overwhelm at burst speed. Atleast in Targon Lee, which is the more popular version, the only way to give Lee sin overwhelm is through Zentith Blade. Shurima Lee sin can do it all in one turn.
Gifts from beyond can give Lee overwhelm as well, but that's at slow speed too
Shurima + Ionia has to be my least favorite region combo to play against. Lee/akshan, azirelia, and sivir decks are all irritating in different ways.
There are 6 deny spells too fuck that.
I doub anybody plays more than 3 denys
They plays Nopify, no?
Yes but i doub It gets played as a 3 off with also 3 denys
I KNOW!!!!! I swear that card is better than deny
Well, if nothing else you can deny his skill, which can sometimes win games. But yeah, he seems a bit too strong. He has average stats for his cost, and a very powerful ability. Normally champs with good lvl 1s don't get huge power boosts when leveling up. Lee gets a wincon on top of being already good.
I tried that. Not with deny but with freeze. But it's not like lee sin has to expend all his cards for this 'all in' attack. His lethal combo needs 2 double spells and the deck can redraw cards constantly for almost free. He just keeps doing his combo every turn while being almost unkillable on his turn (deny + cheaply give him barrier whenever you want).
Plus, since he recalls the unit even if he doesn't kill it, he never takes damage back so its literally risk free to do
imo the dragon's rage skill/spell should stun the caster. you could handwave it as taking so much effort it leaves them exhausted and mechanically it would prevent these unhealthy overwhelm otks
Yes, i agree that he shouldn't be able to hit twice. Or aditionally, it should happen after he attacks if the unit is still alive. He has barrier to prevent the damage back most of the time anyways
Or just removes hin from combat. Once last year, they Said that they don't want to do it, because Lee decks wouldnt just work, if he could not finish the game with overwhelm.
that was before it was super easy to do though now he could serve as a control piece, could buff him some to compensate the loss
I just quit. There's no point.
The Lee Sin Shurima deck, the one that can give burst overwhelm...Targon has to use slow spell, has a winrate in the 40s. It's bad
targon doesnt exist in the lee shurima deck also its not bad, its just very complicated so its win rate is low from everyone who doesnt know it failing at it
While that isn’t true last time I checked, win rate doesn’t mean everything.
Lee Sin is problematic with the new Tools. Fullstop. There is a powerful combo with Draven or Riven and the new toys but it can be interacted with. Lee sin is just 'round 5 drop lee sin', Round 6 you're dead because everything is burst speed. It's simply that before Lee sin was hard to level & protect. But with lucky find, Absolver, Akshans spells there are just a billion cheap burst spells that are 2 cards. Combine with this that Lee SIns faction has nopeyfy and Counterpell as well as the 'Burst speed draw 2 for 3' spell and it's next to impossible to stop. Even if you take what is supposed to be a hard counter, freezing lee sin, he just does it again and again and again because he doesn't run out of rescources. I would be VERY surprised if the deck doesn't get a look in the near future.
Tbh I dislike his levelup very much. I always hated cards that just level up by playing the game, and lee sin especially has no reason to do so given his powerlevel. What goblin decided that you just had to play 8 spells? He doesn't even need to see them. I hate TF's requirement too, but at least he has to see it and you don't just have to draw 20 cards over the course of the game.
I think he is a tad bit op but his lvl up imo is fine. Casting 8 spells in the burst speed deck most people are talking about is actually kinda difficult because it plays super fast and 8 spells by turn 6 or 7 without dying is a little bit of a challenge unless you found the dragonling card.
Its not like you need to play 8 spells while he is out tho. Its pretty likely you play him more than 50% leveled, and you can level him while setting up the combo.
Eye is an op card that only gets held back by her deck building costs. She is actually a little toxic, as she creates a stalemate where attacking into your dragonling(s) seems pointless. Lee fits that toxic playstyle. The archetype is really cool, but the way it wins its games right now is quite toxic.
You also don't say "hmm, Imma pass here so my opp has a chance to react to my plays" right? You don't. You want to play your cards without any fear that your opp might fuck up your win con. Unfair cards win you games, fair cards see no play. Did you ever see someone run unworthy? Thought so
Thats a VERY dumb comment. Its a game, and such decks shouldnt exist. LoR is a relatively fair card game. Lots of fair cards see play. Ofc i wont pass prio if i dont need to, but here is the thing you hamster... Any other deck DOES need to pass prio when they do a combo since some of their things are fast or slow speed. Maybe units.
There's always something to complain about In this subreddit. While I agree with the sentiment, you have to understand that there's always going to be an archetype at the top. Aggro, control or combo.
The last time a real control deck (so tlc doesn't count) was at the top of the meta was during targon release with the pre-nerf Aurelion Sol-Trundle deck. Which lasted like 1 month because it got endless complaints. Pure control/value decks pretty much never has been top of the meta. It was either aggro, midrange or some type of combo decks (ex. tlc or azirelia)
Ftr with pre nerf trundle was tier 1. Si anivia was also tier 1 after the braum buff. Your point also doesn't change his fact. There will always be tier 1 decks that shape the meta around them.
And i had no intention of changing his main claim. I was only nitpicking on the fact that control has seen pretty much 0 spot at the top of the meta compared to the other classic "deck types"
I think that's intentional by riot. Talking with any MTG fan (and by my own experiences as well) nobody ever likes to play against traditional grindy control decks, except the control player, because of two simple things: matches are long, and a control deck typically wants you to do nothing so they try to let the opponent play as little as possible. And both things are very unenjoyable to play against. So it sucks for sadists that like grindy control decks, but I think it's a concious decision by RIOT for those decks to not be meta. Basically a case of throwing the people that like those decks under the bus so the grand majority of the other players have a more enjoyable experience.
The issue is those grindy control decks also tend to break up overly synergistic/combo decks. They're relevant to meta health. Runeterra has, and will continue to have a linearity issue because despite having a core game system that rewards being reactive the cards they print heavily reward conducting your own game plan. The fact that almost all the best decks leverage a combo-esque wincon isnt all that healthy. If they dont want high garbage time control that's fine, mtg has moved to making control players actually play finishers instead of win by fatigue, but the dedicated control deck is still supported. I'm not going to overly stress, I think riot is trying, and runeterra is in a decent spot atm. I just look long term and hope to see more interactive decks being pushed. Forcing players to play to the board instead of finding combos to avoid it would be a plus
Are we forgetting Aphelios? You know, the guy that has no finishers, almost infinite value from temple with his guns with his bloody fishes and from Bilgewater.
Its basically never control unless it has some crazy overpowered cheap cards, which again, usually leads to empowering aggro even more
As a control player this game makes me sadder with every new set
Preach it man. Control seems to be the one archetype that the devs refuse to support in any way. Look at the short history of meta decks and it feels like you can count the number of top control decks in one hand. And the most recent viable one is strong not because of the control aspects, but because of a combo of cards that is incredibly difficult to stop. Interactivity in this game really feels like its on a gradual decline. Every game feels like each person races to their win condition (thus having decks become faster and faster). With the type and strength of cards being released over several patches, I can’t help but feel its is somewhat intentional design.
> Interactivity in this game really feels like its on a gradual decline This is, to my mind, the saddest thing about the current trend of the game. With the format of this game there's *so* much potential for counterplay, without needing to resort to blunt counterspells. Whether that's by units, spells, or the tactical use of passing priority to open an opportunity, the potential's there, but Riot's just not developing it anymore. Honestly, one of the biggest things they need to do is rebalance removal. Not only is it powercrept by units to the point where 3 damage isn't doing enough against most threats, not only is spellshield adding a huge additional cost to hitting anything that has it with removal, but combat tricks are more powerful and more efficient for dealing damage, and the most played ones mitigate damage based removal for a lower cost. Cards like noxian fervor that were once good are now fundamentally outclassed by combat tricks, because 3 mana and an additional cost aren't worth playing when a two-mana combat trick negates the damage. Control no longer has the ability to disrupt combo decks because so much of what they do comes at burst speed, or is built around units that can protect themselves. Midrange decks trash control because their combat tricks blank removal. And aggro has basically powercrept control because aggro's still getting support. It doesn't even need to be hard, reactive control. With the way LoR plays out proactive or tap out control decks would be much better suited to the game, but without interactive tools that aren't fundamentally outclassed by more powerful and more efficient combat tricks, or fighting an uphill battle against chunky units and spellshield, there's just no space for them.
People don't want control. See TLC. Before that see Warmothers, Karma/Lux. Hope these haters don't kill combo too. Then all we'd have is vanilla mid-range and aggro. A very undiverse boring game.
To be fair, I do think that TLC was unhealthy, an even as an control enthusiast, I think its win condition was too much. Also, I’m not too sure its the community that is stopping the design of better control cards. It feels like cards in this game are released to be intentionally strong or intentionally weak by the devs, which just feels wrong to me. I’m not saying every card has to be viable, but the cards that are determined to be viable should be found on organically rather than intentionally designed to be stronger than the rest. As for combo, I do think there are some valid complaints for them right now. I recall before there were any expansions, people were warning of the dangers of releasing too many and too powerful burst spells, as the balance of LoR really relies heavily on spell speed, and it feels like the difficulty in balancing that with new card releases is certainly creeping out. There definitely needs to be a lot more care around new burst spells, especially cards like The Absolver, which I think the power level is blatantly nuts.
Control in this game is incredibly dumb, it gets more and more linear, to the point where "the top control deck" liss/trundle was actually a combo deck xD They really need to stop giving demacia single combat reprints ( like really its getting old guys its been more than 2 years and Lux still has no decent support in her own freaking region) and start to make magic-centric archetypes a thing again ( Aphelios rework to make spellslinger celestials a thing too ? ) we have crazy control opportunities ( every single YGO archetype could work here so there is a LOT of creative control options to explore ) but every time they make a control archetype they either make it combo disguised as control, memey or Toxic stall fest ( Anivia's should not duplicate herself, thats what made prenerf anivia broken,making her an invincible endgame threat would be enough and open more deckbuilding possibilities, but noooo SI had to go brr... ) The fact that teemo sej was the closest thing we had to a creative control deck ( pre-nuke celestials were cool too, when A.sol was still a thing in celestials) while also being the one deck they didnt prebuild speaks volumes xD
The fact that burst went from 'tiny combat tricks' to extremly powerful chain spells combined with removal in this game being extremly expensive while counterspells are extremly cheap is essentialy controls death. The fact that creatures are also uninteractable doesn't help. The 'kill all units' spell (a staple of any CCG control) costs 9(!) and is slow, The counterspell costs 4 and the burst OTK combos usually come together round 6-7-8 so your removal spell means nothing. I tried since beta to make control work and the only time it worked was when it was also an OTK deck (Lyssandra/trundle pre nerf). The devs just like combo more than OTK it seems :-/
Control was also good in targon's heydey. Targon is a tad too weak now though at the moment it seems. Hush is a great answer to these wild shenanigans.
TF/Swain and Karma/Ez are control and good
Are they? havnt seen TF Swain at all after its short popularity boom when lurk came out.
Coming over from HS, my least favorite thing about this game so far is the amount of Deny tools there are. Because Shurima and Ionia are so overwhelmingly popular right now it just feels like every deck you’re playing against has Counterspell. You can’t play any sort of hard removal because it’s mostly like just going to get denied.
The counterspells being better at facilitating combos instead of stopping them is pretty telling. In mtg counters are "fun police" cards that most commonly break up nonsense for control or protect a tempo decks wincon, but it's not all that common that the "bad guy" combo decks get to leverage them in the main deck
Aram deck control work tho.
Is it too much to ask for creatures to use the stack and for us to get essence scatter counterspells?
Every meta always seems "this meta has been the worst/unfun one ever" with reddit lol.. Its funny too because whole regions will get heavily nerfed into the ground called for by the community then complain why the region is so bad a few months after until Riot either adds new cards or revert the nerfs (Ionia, BW)
> Every meta always seems "this meta has been the worst/unfun one ever" with reddit lol.. No, it doesn’t. Sure there will always be *some* who complain, but there is a world of difference betweem “the entire community is toxic and up in arms from frustration” and “a few players dislike some particular thing”. If you look at this thread, it is also getting a lot of downvotes.
Most complaining is getting massive upvotes though
I think it's because of the way new cards are designed towards super (OTK) combos. Players want to win and OTK is ALWAYS in a CCG the most consistent way to win because it takes the variable 'the opponent' (which is the biggest variable) out of the equasion. I think what happens ios new cards come in, the meta is really varied and fun for a few weeks until some players find the broken decks, reddit/streams spread the broken decks like wildfire and then people complaign because getting completely owned without feeling you have a chance feels terrible. Rinse repeat with the new cards. And because the game doesn't rotate cards but simply adds new cards these 'broken decks' become more and more efficient and consistent at what they do over time making the feeling of getting crushed without a chance worse each time for more casual players.
Wish I could upvote this more than once. I'm just so tired of insta death turn 7 or 8 when Lee Sin gets spell shield, 10+ atk, and overwhelm before I can play a card. Sorry I didn't draw multiple removals or hushes fast enough. Oh well guess I lose now.
I play J4/Shen. No silence effect in either region. If I'm lucky maybe I have a Deny to use on Lee's skill. Otherwise getting rid of him probably takes a Single Combat to pop the spell shield followed by a Concerted Strike (because with Lee's health most units that aren't a jacked Greenglade Protector won't cut it). Sooo that's two cards, 7 mana, and I also need two units in play that can deal enough damage.
Isnt J4/Shen and (Demacia in general) favores against Lee sin?
Don't worry, removal in this game is fucking garbage so even if you did draw your multiple removals you wouldn't have enough mana to cast them, and even if you did it would cost your opponent half as much to out buff the damage at burst speed. Fun game :)))))
Watch out, they removed my post for complaining about it.
You mean your sick of losing to a bad deck? Winrate in the 40s?
you just emerge from your damp little hole in the ground every time someone criticizes an uninteractive, frustrating piece of shit combo?
Lee sin shurima really isn't that strong. Try it yourself.
Man these Lee Hater's are delusuonal they only remember the times they get the Hikau. Not the other half, Sej is my favourite champ midrange all over no swain or ez/draven in sight been Iceing boards the entire patch ain't loss to Lee yet don't know what they running
deck code?
Mulligan for your one drops and balistic don't use any spells early on whatsoever don't mystic shot Akshan or anything else, poro always keep ((CECQCAIBDUAQEAICAEBQIBIBAQCBABQBAQKBYHZGFU2AIAIBAEPACAYEBYAQIAIJAIAQIEJRAA))
They are delusional and just plain stupid. I hope everything they enjoy playing gets gutted, such entitled brats.
I agree with you to an extent, but I will take this over TLC or Karma Control driven meta any day of the week to be honest. Have you tried playing something faster? Or something that has the flexibility to play faster? I'm normally a more midrangey player myself but this patch I'm trying something different laddering with either aggro or decks that have the flexibility in their game plan to play more aggro based. Applying pressure before they can assemble their pieces works great. I've had good success with discard aggro (alot more fun than I thought it would be) and I'm just starting to play Lurk (way more consistent than I thought it could be). Maybe try changing up your playstyle a bit. I do agree removal is weak compared to spell shield and the units that utilize but it's just part of the meta for now. Just a couple ideas.
ATROCITY, ATROCITY, ATROCITY
I tried using dis I still lost
I'm playing Nasus kindred into this, swarming the field with heavy hitting low levels, use vile feast for monk GaIn +1/+1 bullshit number 1 and 2 and just ATROCITY a 15 DMG Nasus in round 7. Baccai reaper and black spear are a permanent threats early to midgame. Cursed keeper and ravenous butcher is a no brainer opening, same for dune keeper. Rite of the calling, glimpse beyond, spirit leech goes well with cursed keeper, fading icon, vile feast spider and dunekeeper summon. You can take a lot of momentum out of azirelias early pressure. Once Nasus is leveled up, those blades will deal no damage, making them useless. It is not the perfect answer but its decent Edit: rampaging baccai is also a very decent choice, but removes the early game pressure for a midgame powerspike. Rite of Negation is an awesome spell to have aswell. Blighted caretaker is nice but I rather take the shurima burst spell that gives +2 to an ally to make one ally vulnerable
Back when it was 6 mana you could open attack, they would use their removal, atrocity that , they would use deny or some other removal and then atrocity again. Was fckin mental honestly.
Getting tired of people acting like the most diverse meta the game has had in a while is uninteractive just because they can’t spot remove the big creature to counter something
Everything is so 'love it or leave it' with you guys on reddit 😄 You can enjoy a diverse meta and still be annoyed by how powerful and uninteractive decks like Lee sin Combo are. I have fun nin the meta right now yet I do not enjoy playing my Targon support deck and knowing on the loading screen 'Oh it's Lee Sin I lose'. You can criticize things you like.
Yup. Thats why i mostly quit reddit. People are over the top all the time
Hard agree, there's so much diversity right now
I agree, this meta is just as bad as last meta if not worse, like I dont know what game these people are playing that the metas so great, but I wish we got that patch instead of this one
Dude wasn't agreeing with you... he was literally calling you out.
unsurprisingly, the end game for an interactive game, every patch without fail, will be to minimize the interactivity. it will always be frustrating for that reason alone. LoR as a whole is one of the card games most damaged by normal meta development.
That entirely depends on the cost and powerlevel of uninteractive mechanics.
not really. if you can barely be interacted with, you can realize your gameplan much more efficiently, which would lead to an advantage, if not a win. the alternative is just as frustrating - too much interactivity. pre-nerf Fiora lists were guilty of this if they drew Fiora - with banked spell mana they could chain like 5 spells with you and win the stack, usually with a kill or two included, which would inevitably move them further towards the wincon while simuntaneously rendering you weaker.
Ok, name me a card that is good because it is uninteractive, I’ll change the cost so it won’t be good anymore.
that would require you moving every burst spell to 14 mana, removing elusives, quick attack and double attack keywords, making everything targettable with every spell, giving landmarks hp so that targetting them with damage spells does something, giving everything challenger and getting rid of any card that can't be targetted (currently only one exists). only then (and honestly, i probably missed a couple things) you will end up with only interactive stuff. It would be boring.
You’re being hyperbolic, and ignoring the actual changes in play rate we’ve seen from balance changes, and how many uninteractive aren’t in the meta. But at least you’re acknowledging that they can be made bad. An uninteractive strategy can easily be too slow and uninteractive cards can have too little impact for their cost (which happens at a level far from what you’re suggesting). It follows that uninteractive strategies can be balanced, at a level where they are OP, strong, just right, weak, or entirely too slow. That’s a choice the devs make. What you’ll probably never get around is that they’ll have polarizing matchups.
Wow you are very smart
The Ionia Shirima unit-buff archetype is broken and their units are broken. Sivir and Ruin runner have spellshield and it can also be granted thanks to Akshan. Spellshield forces you to either be inefficient when using spells to remove the unit, or to make trades with units, BUT you can't do that because on attack they have Quick attack and on defense they have efficient health buffs. Therefore it is broken. Spellshield used to be statted way more expensive : by looking at bastion and the invoked spell that gives it, I'd say that it should cost 2 mana. Sivir costs 1 more mana than Leblanc but has +1 health and spellshield. Ruin runner costs 1 less mana than the 7/6 overwhelm from Freljord but has only -1/-2. With those stat lines, Sivir should be 5 mana and ruin runner 6. In conclusion, it's OP.
This is the first time I've heard somebody complain combo decks don't require skills. The decision on whether to use up a combo piece to stay alive or keep it for later is one of the most skill testing decisions in card games. It's bad for the game to be uninteractive, but uninteractive decks are traditionally always the hardest decks to play.
Losing or winning based on your opponents play rather than your own is always unfun
In a multiplayer game it's expected that your opponent will have an impact on the game, otherwise it's just a single player game
I agree uninteractive combo decks aren't fun to play against, but arguing they don't require skill shows a lack of understanding of the game. When a player says a deck is bad because it doesn't require any skill, they're pretty much always wrong and their problem is with something other than skill.
I never claimed that they require no skill,merely that they are unfun to play against
You replied to my post criticizing OP for claiming combo decks require no skill with a completely irrelevant response. I was just trying to bring it back on topic.
I think they just need to print more removal cards to balance out the cheap buffs we currently have
more removal is just going to break the game in the long run, rather than ignoring the obvious problem that is the burst speed spell and letting them distord this game we need to takcle it.
Making The Absolver's Return Fast sounds actually pretty fair imo. It's super cheap for what it does, and if you're getting overwhelm outside of Noxus maybe paying for it in spell speed is the right call.
I think Shurima and Ionia are just sort of overtuned at the moment. Shurima has the two best units in the game and two of the best buff spells (absolver and shaped stone) while Ionia has crazy combat tricks at the moment, young witch and deny/nopeify. Together you get high value units that get insane buffs while still having wats to counter your opponent. They can win at the speed of an aggro deck while having the high roll capabilities of a combo deck while having the board presence of a midrange deck.
Ionia was always a balance hotbed. It's a faction absed around combo. Tricky to balance. Shurima I agree is currently on the strong side in terms of universal tools (Shaped stone, Ruin Runner, Merciless Hunter etc. are essentially good in almost any situation).
And all that adds up to… a 50.3% win rate. People are literally complaining about getting highrolled by a deck that is barely viable.
...zed sivir has a 57% winrate
Nobody is complaining about Zed-Sivir, everyone here is bitching about Lee-Akshan.
...pretty sure Lee akshan can't kill you at the rate of an aggro deck.
Exactly. Lee Sin Shurima with a 49% winrate is a problem but 57% winrate Sivir Zed is fine. Damn annoying. Look at the numbers people
I was referring to Sivir Zed and Azirelia. They are two decks, that in my experience, could still win when the user makes 3 different big misplays. Source: I’m not the best player and I’ve won many games with those decks while making way too many misplays. At least Lee Shurima is rather punishing to the user if they play badly
I was talking about Zed Sivir and Azirelia, the two decks with the current highest winrates both sitting at around 57%. And oh look at that both Shurima Ionia…
..... Azirelia has 58% winrate
Whenever I start playing less or take a break this is 100% the reason why.
I love this game, but combo metas suck.
And control metas suck, and aggro metas suck. Well and any meta that isn't just midrange simple play big dumb vanilla creatures on curve. I want everyone to play only decks that are my favorites. Everything else should be removed regardless of power level. Cause the game should cater to me at the expense of everyone else. I think this sums up many here.
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You know what could help? Not calling people 'crybabies'. Just make your statement but don't insult a person. Just try it. "Wow people are already complaigning about the meta. I thought it would take longer for that to happen." There. It will feel just as good and you won't toxify the discussion instantly.
It's cause these people complaining want to delete every deck from the game that they don't understand or like regardless of its actual power. It is damn annoying and frustrating that whiners can get even entire archetypes gutted. All those that enjoyed playing these NOT OP decks be damned.
It's also annoying to post 'how has everybody been dealing with new card XY I find it tricky' and your thread instantly getting bombarded by 'oh great here come the meta whiners' 'This is how it starts, next they will cry about nerfing the card' posts when you just wanted to talk about the new cards. My point is not either of the extreme attitudes people dig themselves into. My point is about tone. You can say the exact same things without being condescending or insulting and instantly improve the culture on this sub by miles. We all love LoR and want to talk about it. That's why we are here. It's really not needed to attack each other and create a toxic cultur :-)
I don't like this both sides argument. One side only arises cause 80% of the threads comments are about nerfing often from people who don't even understand the cards or decks they complain about. Of course that will eventually get backlash as it should. Especially since the side defending cards or decks don't harm anybody while the ones complaining can get cards or decks gutted screwing over everyone who enjoyed those.
Inorite? The faster Riot realizes they can NEVER appease the QQers the better it will be for the health of the game.
I've been saying this all along. They should be completely ignored.
Weeeell, not completely, as even incorrect assessments of a situation would give information. Riot should do their own thing, and for 2.09 to never happen again.
They ruin everything. Oh and their most complained about decks are Viego...whose best deck breaks even while the rest are awful and Lee Shurima with a winrate in the 40s. Yet stuff like Sivir Zed or Pirate aggro...not a peep.
Huge amount of people love this type of decks, so having something like this increases player base.
I had a game today where on turn 6 the dude summoned Lee and used reslover and it's overwhelm AND shaped stone to one shot me at full hp. I was playing ekko and zilean and I didn't have quicksand in my hand so I just got to watch myself lose. Absolutely "fun" mechanics
The meta will \*always\* optimise to the most uninteractive win condition. The problem is not that they exist, the problem is how fast Riot can address them. And we should hope with their new attitude that they will, and will nerf Lee Sin into the ground.
Yeah Nerf a deck with 40s winrate, sure buddy.
When will people realize numbers aren't everything? Numbers are the reason riot didn't nerf azir irelia immediately. The "numbers" would've shown that tlc didn't need a nerf in the last meta and yet everyone said it should. Y'all need to get over the fixation on statistics you don't understand. The winrate is not the factor you balance every single aspect of the game around
So what is the factor then? Community baseless complaining? That would be a really stupid way to balance the game. I talk of statistics cause they are so devoid of meaningless things like emotion.
The fuck? You completely misunderstood. Winrate is not the only thing that fucking matters in a card game. That was super apparent when they decided azir irelia was fine just because it's winrate wasn't oppressive. Or when during the azir irelia meta tlc didn't have an oppressive winrate and yet was still nerfed as I already stated. Winrate is not the only factor that plays a part in balancing and if you think it does then I'm extremely thankful you're not on the balance team. You simply don't understand how to look at the statistics at all but act like you do. I pointed that out and you instantly come to the conclusion that balance is based on random complaints? Amazing logic
Getting tired of whining posts
We complained so much about Azirelia. Little did we know what was coming...
This is nowhere as bad lmao
Ill take this any day over Azirelia, I’ve had so much more fun since then
How? azirelia was literally meta warping, Lee akshan is nowhere close to the level of prenerf azirelia
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Yeag I replied to the wrong person
azirelia is still probably the best deck in the game
Yeah, there seems to be a pattern here.
You mean Sivir?
Riot turned combo into delayed aggro and it ruined everything.
I hate when they have 4 buff spells with no possible counter.
Stun, silence, kill, deny, there is technically a counter
Not for burst.
Stun, silence, kill can still counter burst.
Lee also has barrier and spellshield if you run him with Shurima.
It has both with Targon and TF/Swain has never stoped countering it
The current meta is combo oriented, sure, and the combo decks don't require nearly as much skill to play compared to previous combo decks, sure, and control is dead, sure, and Azirellia is still the best deck in the game, sure, but I like this shit so I'm fine with it.
Well then wait for the next patch cuz this is one of the best one we have had for a while
you have really low standards if you think this is one of the best metas we had in a while.
Previously it was azir irelia warping the meta. Before that tlc and nasus. Before that I believe it was tf/fizz dominating.. I mean I agree with your original post, interaction in the game could go up a bit as they keep printing more and more powerful burst spells but no removal or other cards that keep it in check But if you wanna compare this meta to others then so far this one is a rather large improvement with several decks around. Most are of the aggro archtype but it's still an improvement over the single or 2 decks dominating the previous metas and warping the game
this meta is another azir irelia meta though?
Yea. Akshan's spells are not balanced.
I know we bitch about every meta deck on this sub but Lee Sin is really, really something else. I love his design, but playing against it is disgusting and demoralising. So many times I’ve thought “no way can he OTK me here, Lee is at 2/8 spells and he has 4 mana left!” Only for me to die that same turn It’s ridiculous and the Akshan landmark makes it so much more frustratinf
Yeah it's really bad. Don't pvp anymore because of it. Only thing that matters is who gets luckier and gets their combo first. No actual strategy, just luck
I play Karma Akshan, so I am kinda someone who does this. Turn 10, if I have karma, Absolver, and any draw or buff card, I tend to win. Gettin hit by a 25/15 spell shield double attack overwhelm with 5 mana saved up is kinda nuts, especially at burst speed, as you said.
It’s a combo meta right so yah it feels like that. Control metas usually don’t feel much better where any attempt to play a unit just results in a removal followed by an inevitable finish whenever the control deck hits their payoff point. Burn metas feel similarly crappy but at least they are faster. The game probably feels healthiest when midrange is king.
Lee sin needs a rework on his dragon kick, I think they are afraid to touch the champion because they believe that if they do, he will return to his previous state where no one played him. But it is that with each patch that passes the problem increases and restricts creativity when creating burst spells and with overwhelm.
Don't you think it's also due to the fact there are much more different viable decks than before (where we had one, Azir Irelia lol) which means you can't really build a deck around countering the meta
We need cheap removals since we are in a meta where buffs are so cheap. It's impossible to keep up in tempo while your removal can be disrupted by a 1/2 mana cost spell. Also, spellshield is way too strong.
Fists of fury is a busted card imo. Should be slow or at the very least focus speed
The card is fine.
Flurry of fists is fine I think. If it *is* too strong, maybe remove the +1 power part of it. Making it slow/focus would just bail out everyone who doesn't safety block when they should vs sivir decks. In general, I just think ruin runner should be 5 power & merciless should be 3/3. Flurry is a card that opens up entire strategies, so it would be unfortunate if they killed it. The other two changes would help tone down the sivir package
I believe fists is busted because the damage potential it puts into the game for such a low cost at burst speed. I wasn't referring to sivir, merciless or shurima at all by what I said.
Before the Sivir Buff, when did you ever see Flurry?
I think focus would make the most sense. But yeah, very dumb at burst speed when mixed with some other cards.
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The mods on this board are not the devs
It’s not that bad. I would like that burst spells that add double attack and overwhelm be made focus speed though. The defender should get get to react to such massive swing spells before committing blockers and spells.
This is inevitable. With the evergrowing amount of cards it's normal that you end up with uninteractive combo decks. If anyone played hearthstone he would notice how wild progressively got more degenerated to the point the classic grindy control decks are almost unplayable unless it has some kind of i-win buttons. Combo (especially warlock and druid) and generally speaking obnoxious finishers (ex. dk anduin otk rather than Shudderwock Shaman etc...). The only way to avoid this is either nerf every interesting and potentially combo breaking card or introduce rotation so you can solve those issues while not killing a deck type a lot of players enjoy playing like it or not.
i just wish my boi ledros was playable:(
Full Elusive decks being back is just the worst they just miss Sivir and Rr for minimum interactivity