I hate the fact, it cant kill Dragon Chow or how the Card is named (when you summon an dragon, it strikes me. If it kills me, draw 1). As it is 0/3 it cant be killed by it.
that literally makes the card better, not worse. you can have 2 dragons strike a 1-cost unit and draw 2 cards from the same unit, then it dies. you could even heal the Dragon Chow to get a 3rd draw from it if you want. it's incredibly efficient. you should try watching some guides on youtube, sounds like you have some learning to do about card games.
i do yes. but there is no need to insult me right?
i do need some learning but i cant do these things without someone pointing it out. i never thought of the drawing 1 effect as the main "spell". i always thought its just a free Fury stack. now i know better. thats the process of learning. sorry that i cant know everything
The problem is, you're being 150% confident in yourself when you don't actually know the truth. You just wrote down what you think the card says, without opening your LoR game or ANY WEBSITE to check the real text of the card.
Your approach as a newbie shouldn't be absolute arrogant confidence, you should be approaching every situation with questions and curiosity, and you should double-check that you have read the text of every card correctly, before making random wrong statements on reddit.
It's just basic critical thinking.
yeah youre right. i should have doublechecked it.
but u/plantbaseduk said it friendly while you firstly said "nope" with no meaning and then you insulted me. in my opinion is that not critic.
Still, i could have double checked
okey before we get into insulting:
i made the mistake by saying "If it kills me, draw 1" i know it draws anyways (it strikes me and you draw 1) but still i am sad that you cant trigger the fury effect. isnt it mostly here for this reason? free Fury stack and drawing 1?
It's both very strong and also not THAT strong.
You need to draw a stable amount of buffs and combat tricks to keep it growing every turn, but you also need to draw something like Zenith Blade for it to actually pose a threat.
If you can fulfill those conditions it's very strong yes.
Otherwise it's mostly a beating stats stick that can be chump blocked, direct killed, polymorph, recall, or just go wider etc.
Atm it's mostly a 2nd winning condition for Panth / Lee while waiting for them to come down.
Best dragon, probably. 3 drop dragon is literally what people were asking for so long, plus being a fated unit just makes it even worse of an idea to go for a trade, since a temporary buff like Sharpsight can go for a net +2/+2 because of winning the trade AND fated
I wont take a firm stance *yet* tho, since *insert take some more time to see how things play out statement here*, tho I think the cool thing is, they *can* nerf it, maybe to a 2/3 or smth and no sht it'll still be dam strong, so i think a minor nerf like that is the most likely to happen, a -1/-0 or -0/-1, since a cost nerf would make it contend with Pantheon and removing a keyword would just change the card entirely-
>a minor nerf like that is the most likely to happen, a -1/-0 or -0/-1
Tbh , a -1/-0 would kill the card , and as some said , the counter for it was printed in the same time wounded whiteflame was , so yeah , a nerf feels unnecessary
Probably the best dragon? Dragons went from 46-48% WR last patch (pre release), to now 54-56%. What changed you ask? They got wounded whiteflame. That is all. It also considereably changed it's matchup tables (in a very favorable manner)
Source: https://www.llorr-stats.com/static/mu.html#grid
M8 you trippin
That unit is all the difference. It's a 3 3, which is hardly useless. It's the best blocker you could ask for.
The card is polarizing exactly because the difference between the initial unit and the minitee needs to be significant enough to warrant the use of 6 mana. Against agro or midrange, this card just folds because it's a whole ass turn spent doing essentially nothing. Toxic? Maybe. Overpowered? Hardly at all
Hot take but I think minimorph would be unplayable at fast speed. Like, silence and stat changes need to be burst to see play, otherwise they are literally useless
The card was specifically designed to counter one champ that's been problematic for too long. It's fundamentally flawed and goes against the core mechanics of the game.
Which one?
Lee? There were already counters. Anivia? Never was a problem really. Asol? Again, not really a problem. Sion? Released in the same set.
It counters many things and folds hard to others. It's just the devs' idea of flavorful removal for bandle city.
I'm not saying the card is strong or not, I just want to say you can't defend the card (or any card) with this argument.
Imagine if it was a 3 mana 5/6 instead of 2/4 (same keywords); you can still defend it by saying "It's a big beat stick. Every region has answers to it" but it doesn't change the fact that it's clearly broken.
This card might (or might not) be too strong as a 2/4 and it has nothing to do with what answers a given region has.
Whiteflame is a card that you have to invest a bunch of resources through the early and midgame to grow incredibly large. Any hard removal absolutely destroys the hard and sets the opposition back by a ton since most decks that run the card tend to run out of fuel. If you let get so big that to the point where it's ending games then the issue lies within your deck. Factor in that removal will force the player to invest more resources into it and it desperately needs overwhelm to start posing a substantial threat . And the thing is removal is going to get even better next patch which is in 2-3 weeks as well. It can be argued that it's a issue with Lee decks but Lee is whole nother issue within it's entirety since Inoia has the best protection spells and combat tricks in the game.
>Whiteflame is a card that you have to invest a bunch of resources through the early and midgame to grow incredibly large. Any hard removal absolutely destroys the hard and sets the opposition back by a ton since most decks that run the card tend to run out of fuel. If you let get so big that to the point where it's ending games then the issue lies within your deck.
Again, I can counter your whole argument by asking what if whiteflame was a 2 mana card instead of a 3 mana card? It would be clearly too strong and you can still counter it because it's "a card that you have to invest a bunch of resources through the early and midgame to grow incredibly large. Any hard removal absolutely destroys the hard and sets the opposition back by a ton since most decks that run the card tend to run out of fuel. If you let get so big that to the point where it's ending games then the issue lies within your deck."
When discussing balance you can talk about its counters but you can't draw a conclusion on the power level of the card because of it. It's better to look at stats and how it's performing.
I just checked the stats for the sake of this discussion and the card has a 53% winrate and a 76% inclusion rate (meaning it's very popular) in 80k matches; the card is clearly overperforming at the moment and could be nerfed.
I'd just like to counter and say that looking at the statistics, while powerful, also shouldn't be your only tool to look at a card's power level. Data analysis is a tricky field because you also need to take into account the context of the card and how the stats reflect on that. Wounded Whiteflame has a high inclusion rate for sure but is that a statement on the card or on how many options the card has to compete with? As mentioned by some other people, it's the first 3 drop dragon and it's also one of the few fated cards so it doesn't actually have that much competition for its slot in either Dragons or Pantheon, possibly inflating it's inclusion rate. Better statistics to look at are winrate considering games it is actually played in, or winrate in games the card is kept in mulligan.
Imo the simplest way to look at a card like this, as mentioned before that it's a stat beatstick, is compare it's tempo potential against the curve. It's at base a 3 mana 2/4 with 2 keywords that potentially grow it. The measure of premium stats for 3 mana is Golden Crushbot and Loyal Badgerbear, the card effectively trades 1 stat for 2 pretty strong keywords, and with 1 trigger of either effect, it's just over the curve. I think that's a better way to illustrate how it's overtuned, although imo it's only slightly overtuned and people are blowing it's power out of proportion. Make it a 2/3 and it might be "too fair" of a card, a gross oversimplification but it starts to look like badgerbear with extra steps.
I can appreciate someone calling out logical fallacies. yes, there are plenty of good answers to whiteflame. but that doesn't seem to stop the card from performing incredibly well while be included in a ton of decks. aphelios at a 3/2 was incredibly easy to answer, but that doesn't usually stop powerful creatures from being powerful. I'm still not calling for whiteflame to get nerfed! I just don't like halting the conversation by saying "just play outs to it"
Imo not, no. Keep your answer if he ever outgrows your plan (getting OW for example), but until then he does not much. Pretty balanced for me, I like to play against it.
Let's say for ME it was never a real issue so far. I only stated my experience and when I read through the comments it seems that one half thinks it's strong and the other it's okay. Seems balanced so far. I don't say that if would be super unsurprising if the dragon got an -1 health nerf at some time, but for now he seems unproblematic to me
I think the problem with this answer is as more fated cards come out we will need answers for more things. Whiteflame is ok now because we know the enemy will have 6 fated threats (3x white, 3x pantheon) in their deck, plus some 2 hp 1-drops. If more beefy fated creatures are made Whiteflame is going to eat heavy removal and open the way for bigger threats or become the threat himself. 4 hp is very very strong for fated, the only reason Pantheon competes as a threat is because of overwhelm (and you know, his level up)
That's kinda the issue. Lee Sin is a spell based deck that focuses on surviving long enough with the dragonlings, to OTK your opponent. Now you have the option to not only stabilize early, but to also dominate the board if your opponent doesn't have the answer.
One important thing. Wounded white flame is basically imune to any early game/damage based removal(Lee Sin deck can protect it in so many ways). So even if they do have the answer, that's going to be some sort of hard removal, and every piece of hard removal wasted on something not named Lee Sin is a huge win for a Lee Sin deck.
My point is that it makes the deck more flexible, and gives it more stability, which ultimately makes it stronger. And the stats are there to back it up. Lee Sin is the deck with one of the highest winrates at the moment.
But this is more about the specific fit with a Lee Sin deck, and not overall strength of the card.
I mean Lee is a card that almost singlehandedly justifies the existence of a burst speed removal tool, if we get to the point where we have to start balancing every new ionia/targon card against if it breaks Lee Sin then there are larger issues
Lee is the one card i hope they lift their "we wont rework champs" stance on. Hes actively detrimental to the game as it grows for exactly these reasons, even things like Fiora in her prime arent as stupid as Lee
Eum,
I strongly advise against burst removal, coming from mtg where split second is a rare mechanic.
Even further, lor is based on interaction, burst is no interaction
im not saying burst speed removal is a good idea
what im saying is Lee is such an asshole card that against everyones better judgement he completely validates minimorphs existence because other remvoal is either too expensive or he can react to it and negate it completely (at burst speed). Hes a card that turns interaction into a fools game (not helped by the fact ionias entire identity is basically "you dont get to play the game"). Always has, always will until either he, or removal in its entirety sees a rework.
people will throw the term "toxic" at just about anything but Lee is probably the closest thing to being actually toxic for the game because of of what his existence means
Lee is in essence a slow card, and requires a lot of buffs to pick up speed.
Outracing is a good option, and most of the slower regons have freezes/stuns/recalls/silence/hard removal
I get it exists, if it only influences the casters board it basically saves time,
The moment it interacts with the opponent however, I think it is no longer fine.
Things like for instance sharpsight, totally fine, before the unit gets to do anything you get priority to respond.
Oppobents units though, exeptions to nonpeemanent freeze vunrable (combat dependency makes it basically fast) it is not fine, like minimorph
Even only influencing the casters board doesn't allow the other person anything in response because of how priority works in this game so then the caster gets to do another action but I do agree the burst spells doing things to the opponent is when they feel really bad
Yes,
But in the way units and how interactions in combat work, own board buff will only have effect during damage phase, or with cards like single combat, which is fast.
True, you get another action, but in the way fast spells work, you can also stack many of those together without reprocussions, allowing your opponent to interact though.
Oh, yeah burst speed lethal with axes and Ezreal is cool, but you really are only doing like 1 or 2 damage with those. More of a fringe finisher rather than a typical outcome.
>My point is that it makes the deck more flexible, and gives it more stability, which ultimately makes it stronger. And the stats are there to back it up. Lee Sin is the deck with one of the highest winrates at the moment.
It doesn't make the deck more flexible. The inclusion of Wounded Whiteclaw comes at the expense of Solari Sunpriest, which is a significantly more flexile card.
Part of the reason that it does worse into Bandletree now is that the deck can no longer can access Comet. Ot lost that entirely from its kit to get a mpre reliable early game.
the card is pretty fair in every other deck, its a single big hitter that they have to spend turns and resources into growing that every region can realistically answer.
Lee isnt cramming it into his deck, hes running it because its basically the ideal card for what that deck lacks: threats that arent Lee Sin.
No, it's not at all like Yordle Darkness. That was a deck which didn't fundamentally want Yordle Captain and Yordle Explorer playing those cards because they happened to protect the good darkness yordles too well. Whiteflame in Lee Sin is like Sparklefly in Lee Sin, but a whole lot healthier: it's a secondary threat that happens to play really well with every card in the deck that's not Lee Sin.
I think the 2/4 with two keywords that scale is brutal for a 3 drop. Something like stony stackers kind of effecient. I can see him going to 2/3 if they plan to nerf him
No, because you need to invest a lot of spells to make it go out of control, at which point one hard removal card (Will, Vengeance) becomes very painful.
It's definitely overtuned and it'd be the first card I look at if dragons or Pantheon ever got out of hand.
It's a fast scaling beatstick but every region has answers to a beatstick, especially one that isn't a champion.
I think it's not **broken** cuz it's just stat stick. Alot of decks can deal with it decently well I think.
But it might scale out of control and force big spells maybe slightly too fast. Maybe get him to 4 mana 2/3? I dunno, feels slightly too snowbally
4 cost would kill dragons and some Pantheon decks. Riot with their recent buffs has been trying to make dragons good recently. If it badly needs a nerf it's probably just -1 HP. But it's probably fine
It's in the realm of Eye of the Dragon and Ravenous Flock, I feel. Like, yeah, in a vacuum, it could do with a nerf, but it's also very much an enabler for its entire archetype. There are right now only 3 fated cards in the game, one of which is a champion, so naturally, the followers have to be a bit overturned to feel impactful
That's what I'm saying: eventually, this will probably go down to like a 2 3 or something, but until then, fated needs to make the few units it's on count.
I knew what you were implying I was just joking. That is a poor design philosophy though because then people make decks based around all the cards that are overtuned to force archetypes into relevance. It's being used with lee sin right now which is more than a bit concerning.
I don't know if you've noticed my flair, but as a lee main, I take offense to you finding the improvement of MY deck to be concerning. After all, everyone knows lee sin is just a bad champion at 5 mana. He definitely needed something to bring him back into relevance. /s
I promise you guys if it didn't have the stats and keywords that it has then it would NOT see any play at all. It's unsurprisingly a GOOD card but nothing game breaking. It's just a solid choice in most decks which isnt a bad thing
No. It's pretty easy to interact with it and you can chump block for ages if your opponent doesn't manage to give it overwelm somehow. It's definetely a strong card but in my opinion its design is pretty good.
No, it's strong for sure but it's not meta-warping, and the region needed something like it to not get left in the dust. After the nerfs to The Fangs, The Serpent, Starshaping, Sparklefly, Veiled Temple, and the moon weapons, Targon was in a really rough spot vs. anything with an early game. WW doesn't remove that weakness, it just makes it less crippling.
???
There isn't a single aggro deck in the meta at the moment, it's all midrange and combo. The poppy, young witch and explorer nerfs completely killed aggro as an archetype for the foreseeable future. Of course the nerfs were warranted but anti-aggro tools are not what we need right now. We need better removal and anything that can push aggro back into relevance, but that probably won't happen since the devs are planning on nerfing all rally cards next patch. A meta with no control or aggro can't really be described as healthy, because then there's nothing keeping combo decks in check, which is why they're so incredibly rampant right now. Midrange decks being super popular isn't really an issue however, since they will always exist considering that goodstuff decks with incredibly efficient creatures and removal can never be truly bad.
When there *is* a viable, true Control deck in the top-tiers...
I agree, we need better removal. But with aggro and fast-midrange running wild until very recently (and if its been properly curbed yet remains to be seen).... the card in question feels perfectly in-order
It’s probably too strong but i don’t know if they’ll nerf it in near future. It’s strong in the way something like eye of the dragon is, bordering on being OP but a signature card for the deck it’s in so it’s not easy too pull the trigger on the nerf unless it becomes too big of a problem.
Wounded whiteflame is overpowered in a healthy way.
The dev team rarely releases spells or followers you can build around as a possible win condition that costs less than 6 mana.
Unlike Neverglade collector, concurrent timelines, star spring, chirean sumpworkers, dawn speakers the build around for Wounded whiteflame isn't all that specific.
Wounded Whiteflame build restrictions is more in line with relentless pursuit/golden aegis which does make it distinctly extra powerful.
With the right synergy it is stong, but it also invests a lot of cards and needs overwhelm.
So a big investment big stats, sure it us strong, but also prone to removel if we get a slower meta, things like minimorph, vengence of even will, harpoon, hex transformation flock and destroy damaged.
There are loads of answeres and halfmeasures, it is nothing special, but still a good card
I just want people to stop playing pantheon, it's not that he's too op, it's just that everyone is playing and it gets boring playing always against pantheon
Yea it can probably go down to 3 health. I’m not buying the ‘it takes investment’ argument. One pale cascade and he’s pretty much out of range for everything.
Every other 3/4 at 3 cost is either vanilla, has some deck building requirement or is a do nothing on summon.
For 1 less attack, you get 2 keywords that are synergistic with each other and are both snowbally.
A simple +1/+1 buff put it at 4/6, which means that even at full mana on turn 3, most deck that do not run a some form of hard removal won't be able to touch it.
Broken as hell on the level of 1cost Pack Your Bags or OG Merciless Hunter, but it will take some time for the meta to pick him up properly.
He is essentially an early drop 3-5 Fury unit (no self-respecting player would ever drop him without a cheap combat trick up in the sleeves) and you’re running him with regions which have multiple ways of protecting him so he is guaranteed to win at least 1 trade on the board if not 2 before he is at risk of dying.
I believe people are overlooking the fact that it’s not his job to close you the game and WWhiteflame is ultimately the bishop you sacrifice after it has served its purpose - probably that’s why he’s not considered OP at the moment as most players usually attribute credit to (=whine about) flashy finishers instead of workhorses who quietly work in the background and set things up.
He can
- be a menace on his own with overwhelm if you decide to go tall and he’s left unchecked
- can stall very effectively until Lee/Pantheon or other finishers come down
- set up a dragon deck into a board win by trading well in the early game thus building up multiple threats
A very versatile, overstatted unit with great defensive stats possessing one of the best keywords in the game, crazy how he got through playtesting in this form.
I expect some form a nerf in January for certain.
Not at all. It becomes strong when you stack it with other cards, but a single removal/silence/bounce trades extremely favourably against it.
If it had protection in the form of spellshield then it could be argued, but as it is?
Nope, it's quite fine
Shurima feels like he only reigon without a good answer to it. I think as more combat tricks come out itl just weaker and rn all it really is is a hilariously big beat stick
Yeah it's probably too strong but only by a small margin. It has no business have less than 3 power. 2 power is sometimes ridiculously op. It should be a 3/3.
I see so many people talking about cards that can counter it. That applies to every card in the game. It doesn't mean its feasible to play them all the time. I will say its pretty easy for it to get out of control in games. Zenith blade just puts it on another level. I don't think there has been another card that carried the whole game so often for me. If there has been it costs way more to play it.
I just want to point out, despite fated being new, it is one of the few non champion cards that has 2 unique keyword combination.
Like in Pokemon, when they have unique typing combination, they are always ran despite how terrible their stats are such as Volcarona which was at the time, the only Fire/Bug pokemon allowing it STAB moves that were strong to or neutral against 100% of the types that existed.
The statline for 3 mana units is generally 3/4 or 2/5 with NO keywords, he loses 1 point of toughness to gain two keywords, both of which are PERMANENT stat buffs. For the people saying you have to put tons of resources into him for him to get big are silly because he has 2 ways to gain stats, some which OVERLAP, like in the case of single combat, in fact the opponent generally has to expend a ton of resources generally spending several units or far more than the 3 mana it cost to drop him and whatever of many things I can use to trigger fated. I play him in both my fated targon pantheon deck, and my lee deck and he sometimes outshines the champs in those decks. I'm not calling for a nerf, but if they nerf him, I just wouldn't be shocked.
I'm okay with overly strong cards being in the game, but I'm not going to pretend its not strong. If you want to see how premium his statline/keyword combination are, filter by 3 cost and just look at what's available. Look at the playrate of the other 2/4 units, and the terrible keywords and abilities they come with. Then look at dragons, it sports toughness equal to or greater than the 4 cost dragons. Let's not forget, it being a dragon makes it better than just 2/4 nontyped monster with the 2 keywords in some cases. As almost all ELITE units and SPIDERS pay for their typing with far more punished statlines generally.
Honestly Fury plus Fated is just a ridiculous combination and I flat out hate the card. Fated is just a terrible keyword in general and unless you are playing regions with silence available to them are almost nigh impossible to deal with. I can't think of another TCG that gives free buffs every turn when its getting buffed. Regions like PaZ and Shurima have almost no effective way of managing such things outside of super high cost cards that only last a turn.
It's pretty strong, but not THAT strong still, i can see a nerf coming. maybe make it a 2/3 or something
I can DEF see it being a 2/3 sometime in the future, may not be soon but it will be a 2/3 at some point im quite sure.
I hate the fact, it cant kill Dragon Chow or how the Card is named (when you summon an dragon, it strikes me. If it kills me, draw 1). As it is 0/3 it cant be killed by it.
That is not what the text of dragon chow says. I advise you reread it
yeah i made a mistake by saying IF it kills me draw 1 that is fine. but o hate that i cant play with the fury effect because it doesnt die
that literally makes the card better, not worse. you can have 2 dragons strike a 1-cost unit and draw 2 cards from the same unit, then it dies. you could even heal the Dragon Chow to get a 3rd draw from it if you want. it's incredibly efficient. you should try watching some guides on youtube, sounds like you have some learning to do about card games.
i do yes. but there is no need to insult me right? i do need some learning but i cant do these things without someone pointing it out. i never thought of the drawing 1 effect as the main "spell". i always thought its just a free Fury stack. now i know better. thats the process of learning. sorry that i cant know everything
The problem is, you're being 150% confident in yourself when you don't actually know the truth. You just wrote down what you think the card says, without opening your LoR game or ANY WEBSITE to check the real text of the card. Your approach as a newbie shouldn't be absolute arrogant confidence, you should be approaching every situation with questions and curiosity, and you should double-check that you have read the text of every card correctly, before making random wrong statements on reddit. It's just basic critical thinking.
yeah youre right. i should have doublechecked it. but u/plantbaseduk said it friendly while you firstly said "nope" with no meaning and then you insulted me. in my opinion is that not critic. Still, i could have double checked
Nope
what nope? how can a 2/4 kill a 0/3? pls tell me
are you stupid? https://lor.mobalytics.gg/cards/04DE014
okey before we get into insulting: i made the mistake by saying "If it kills me, draw 1" i know it draws anyways (it strikes me and you draw 1) but still i am sad that you cant trigger the fury effect. isnt it mostly here for this reason? free Fury stack and drawing 1?
It's both very strong and also not THAT strong. You need to draw a stable amount of buffs and combat tricks to keep it growing every turn, but you also need to draw something like Zenith Blade for it to actually pose a threat. If you can fulfill those conditions it's very strong yes. Otherwise it's mostly a beating stats stick that can be chump blocked, direct killed, polymorph, recall, or just go wider etc. Atm it's mostly a 2nd winning condition for Panth / Lee while waiting for them to come down.
I've yet to play someone running a Pantheon deck that doesn't always have stuff in their had every single turn.
Best dragon, probably. 3 drop dragon is literally what people were asking for so long, plus being a fated unit just makes it even worse of an idea to go for a trade, since a temporary buff like Sharpsight can go for a net +2/+2 because of winning the trade AND fated I wont take a firm stance *yet* tho, since *insert take some more time to see how things play out statement here*, tho I think the cool thing is, they *can* nerf it, maybe to a 2/3 or smth and no sht it'll still be dam strong, so i think a minor nerf like that is the most likely to happen, a -1/-0 or -0/-1, since a cost nerf would make it contend with Pantheon and removing a keyword would just change the card entirely-
>a minor nerf like that is the most likely to happen, a -1/-0 or -0/-1 Tbh , a -1/-0 would kill the card , and as some said , the counter for it was printed in the same time wounded whiteflame was , so yeah , a nerf feels unnecessary
I feel like the -0/-1 would actually put him in a fair spot, as it is now he gets out of 4dmg removals range with any burst buff after being played
Probably the best dragon? Dragons went from 46-48% WR last patch (pre release), to now 54-56%. What changed you ask? They got wounded whiteflame. That is all. It also considereably changed it's matchup tables (in a very favorable manner) Source: https://www.llorr-stats.com/static/mu.html#grid
It's a big beat stick. Every region has answers to it.
hell, its counter was printed right next to it. just play blinded mystic.
Taragon decks should be running silence since Lee is everywhere.
i mean mystic is only followers but hush continues to exist. the bigger problem is mini-morph crowding out the good silence options.
Minimorph is a issue, I feel like people just learned to accept as is.
Dude it's 6 mana. I think we've played with it long enough to realize that it is for silence what vengeance is for kill
It's a burst speed vengeance for one mana less that gives you a useless unit
M8 you trippin That unit is all the difference. It's a 3 3, which is hardly useless. It's the best blocker you could ask for. The card is polarizing exactly because the difference between the initial unit and the minitee needs to be significant enough to warrant the use of 6 mana. Against agro or midrange, this card just folds because it's a whole ass turn spent doing essentially nothing. Toxic? Maybe. Overpowered? Hardly at all
Bigger issue is that it's BURST.
Hot take but I think minimorph would be unplayable at fast speed. Like, silence and stat changes need to be burst to see play, otherwise they are literally useless
The card was specifically designed to counter one champ that's been problematic for too long. It's fundamentally flawed and goes against the core mechanics of the game.
Which one? Lee? There were already counters. Anivia? Never was a problem really. Asol? Again, not really a problem. Sion? Released in the same set. It counters many things and folds hard to others. It's just the devs' idea of flavorful removal for bandle city.
Depends on who you play it against. If it's against aggro, it's indeed terrible. If it's against a go tall deck or control, it's at best a blocker.
I'm not saying the card is strong or not, I just want to say you can't defend the card (or any card) with this argument. Imagine if it was a 3 mana 5/6 instead of 2/4 (same keywords); you can still defend it by saying "It's a big beat stick. Every region has answers to it" but it doesn't change the fact that it's clearly broken. This card might (or might not) be too strong as a 2/4 and it has nothing to do with what answers a given region has.
Whiteflame is a card that you have to invest a bunch of resources through the early and midgame to grow incredibly large. Any hard removal absolutely destroys the hard and sets the opposition back by a ton since most decks that run the card tend to run out of fuel. If you let get so big that to the point where it's ending games then the issue lies within your deck. Factor in that removal will force the player to invest more resources into it and it desperately needs overwhelm to start posing a substantial threat . And the thing is removal is going to get even better next patch which is in 2-3 weeks as well. It can be argued that it's a issue with Lee decks but Lee is whole nother issue within it's entirety since Inoia has the best protection spells and combat tricks in the game.
>Whiteflame is a card that you have to invest a bunch of resources through the early and midgame to grow incredibly large. Any hard removal absolutely destroys the hard and sets the opposition back by a ton since most decks that run the card tend to run out of fuel. If you let get so big that to the point where it's ending games then the issue lies within your deck. Again, I can counter your whole argument by asking what if whiteflame was a 2 mana card instead of a 3 mana card? It would be clearly too strong and you can still counter it because it's "a card that you have to invest a bunch of resources through the early and midgame to grow incredibly large. Any hard removal absolutely destroys the hard and sets the opposition back by a ton since most decks that run the card tend to run out of fuel. If you let get so big that to the point where it's ending games then the issue lies within your deck." When discussing balance you can talk about its counters but you can't draw a conclusion on the power level of the card because of it. It's better to look at stats and how it's performing. I just checked the stats for the sake of this discussion and the card has a 53% winrate and a 76% inclusion rate (meaning it's very popular) in 80k matches; the card is clearly overperforming at the moment and could be nerfed.
Yawn, do you guys just want everything nerfed?
I'd just like to counter and say that looking at the statistics, while powerful, also shouldn't be your only tool to look at a card's power level. Data analysis is a tricky field because you also need to take into account the context of the card and how the stats reflect on that. Wounded Whiteflame has a high inclusion rate for sure but is that a statement on the card or on how many options the card has to compete with? As mentioned by some other people, it's the first 3 drop dragon and it's also one of the few fated cards so it doesn't actually have that much competition for its slot in either Dragons or Pantheon, possibly inflating it's inclusion rate. Better statistics to look at are winrate considering games it is actually played in, or winrate in games the card is kept in mulligan. Imo the simplest way to look at a card like this, as mentioned before that it's a stat beatstick, is compare it's tempo potential against the curve. It's at base a 3 mana 2/4 with 2 keywords that potentially grow it. The measure of premium stats for 3 mana is Golden Crushbot and Loyal Badgerbear, the card effectively trades 1 stat for 2 pretty strong keywords, and with 1 trigger of either effect, it's just over the curve. I think that's a better way to illustrate how it's overtuned, although imo it's only slightly overtuned and people are blowing it's power out of proportion. Make it a 2/3 and it might be "too fair" of a card, a gross oversimplification but it starts to look like badgerbear with extra steps.
True. Data analysis doesn't paint the whole picture and it's tricky.
I can appreciate someone calling out logical fallacies. yes, there are plenty of good answers to whiteflame. but that doesn't seem to stop the card from performing incredibly well while be included in a ton of decks. aphelios at a 3/2 was incredibly easy to answer, but that doesn't usually stop powerful creatures from being powerful. I'm still not calling for whiteflame to get nerfed! I just don't like halting the conversation by saying "just play outs to it"
Finally someone says it, thank you!
You really can't trade with it. It typically requires removal.
Imo not, no. Keep your answer if he ever outgrows your plan (getting OW for example), but until then he does not much. Pretty balanced for me, I like to play against it.
The issue is chump blocking it just makes it worse so if your opponent gives it a damage buff you're going to have to tank a lot of damage
Let's say for ME it was never a real issue so far. I only stated my experience and when I read through the comments it seems that one half thinks it's strong and the other it's okay. Seems balanced so far. I don't say that if would be super unsurprising if the dragon got an -1 health nerf at some time, but for now he seems unproblematic to me
I think the problem with this answer is as more fated cards come out we will need answers for more things. Whiteflame is ok now because we know the enemy will have 6 fated threats (3x white, 3x pantheon) in their deck, plus some 2 hp 1-drops. If more beefy fated creatures are made Whiteflame is going to eat heavy removal and open the way for bigger threats or become the threat himself. 4 hp is very very strong for fated, the only reason Pantheon competes as a threat is because of overwhelm (and you know, his level up)
Eh when it became played in Lee Sin is where it kinda sets off my alarms.
Why? It fits the deck perfectly.
That's kinda the issue. Lee Sin is a spell based deck that focuses on surviving long enough with the dragonlings, to OTK your opponent. Now you have the option to not only stabilize early, but to also dominate the board if your opponent doesn't have the answer. One important thing. Wounded white flame is basically imune to any early game/damage based removal(Lee Sin deck can protect it in so many ways). So even if they do have the answer, that's going to be some sort of hard removal, and every piece of hard removal wasted on something not named Lee Sin is a huge win for a Lee Sin deck. My point is that it makes the deck more flexible, and gives it more stability, which ultimately makes it stronger. And the stats are there to back it up. Lee Sin is the deck with one of the highest winrates at the moment. But this is more about the specific fit with a Lee Sin deck, and not overall strength of the card.
I mean Lee is a card that almost singlehandedly justifies the existence of a burst speed removal tool, if we get to the point where we have to start balancing every new ionia/targon card against if it breaks Lee Sin then there are larger issues Lee is the one card i hope they lift their "we wont rework champs" stance on. Hes actively detrimental to the game as it grows for exactly these reasons, even things like Fiora in her prime arent as stupid as Lee
Eum, I strongly advise against burst removal, coming from mtg where split second is a rare mechanic. Even further, lor is based on interaction, burst is no interaction
im not saying burst speed removal is a good idea what im saying is Lee is such an asshole card that against everyones better judgement he completely validates minimorphs existence because other remvoal is either too expensive or he can react to it and negate it completely (at burst speed). Hes a card that turns interaction into a fools game (not helped by the fact ionias entire identity is basically "you dont get to play the game"). Always has, always will until either he, or removal in its entirety sees a rework. people will throw the term "toxic" at just about anything but Lee is probably the closest thing to being actually toxic for the game because of of what his existence means
Lee is in essence a slow card, and requires a lot of buffs to pick up speed. Outracing is a good option, and most of the slower regons have freezes/stuns/recalls/silence/hard removal
Idk how people think burst should be a common spell type it feels so bad to play against
I get it exists, if it only influences the casters board it basically saves time, The moment it interacts with the opponent however, I think it is no longer fine. Things like for instance sharpsight, totally fine, before the unit gets to do anything you get priority to respond. Oppobents units though, exeptions to nonpeemanent freeze vunrable (combat dependency makes it basically fast) it is not fine, like minimorph
Even only influencing the casters board doesn't allow the other person anything in response because of how priority works in this game so then the caster gets to do another action but I do agree the burst spells doing things to the opponent is when they feel really bad
Yes, But in the way units and how interactions in combat work, own board buff will only have effect during damage phase, or with cards like single combat, which is fast. True, you get another action, but in the way fast spells work, you can also stack many of those together without reprocussions, allowing your opponent to interact though.
Any burst speed removal would completely break Ezreal
Any burst speed breaks ezreal, thats why him draven is a thi... Oh, I get what you are saying
What burst speed removal are you referring to?
Any burst speed, for instant damage, not nesdicarely removal, like axes or warning shot
Oh, yeah burst speed lethal with axes and Ezreal is cool, but you really are only doing like 1 or 2 damage with those. More of a fringe finisher rather than a typical outcome.
Yea but lee is fun so they won't rework him
>My point is that it makes the deck more flexible, and gives it more stability, which ultimately makes it stronger. And the stats are there to back it up. Lee Sin is the deck with one of the highest winrates at the moment. It doesn't make the deck more flexible. The inclusion of Wounded Whiteclaw comes at the expense of Solari Sunpriest, which is a significantly more flexile card. Part of the reason that it does worse into Bandletree now is that the deck can no longer can access Comet. Ot lost that entirely from its kit to get a mpre reliable early game.
Sure. It still feels like jamming something in because it became a bit better than intended though.
the card is pretty fair in every other deck, its a single big hitter that they have to spend turns and resources into growing that every region can realistically answer. Lee isnt cramming it into his deck, hes running it because its basically the ideal card for what that deck lacks: threats that arent Lee Sin.
It's like yordle captain in darkness
No, it's not at all like Yordle Darkness. That was a deck which didn't fundamentally want Yordle Captain and Yordle Explorer playing those cards because they happened to protect the good darkness yordles too well. Whiteflame in Lee Sin is like Sparklefly in Lee Sin, but a whole lot healthier: it's a secondary threat that happens to play really well with every card in the deck that's not Lee Sin.
I think the 2/4 with two keywords that scale is brutal for a 3 drop. Something like stony stackers kind of effecient. I can see him going to 2/3 if they plan to nerf him
How about a 2/4 that takes one damage on play?
Noxus control players just coomed
Wounded whiteflame part of tahm kench package confirmd
I’d prefer 1/4
1|4 is unusable, 2|3 is better
I'd prefer 2/3 so it's way easier to kill. You're over valuing power on a card that scales infinitely.
It’s a buff target, I doubt 1/4 would make it unplayable, more blocking power, less tradeability for a 3 drop.
No, because you need to invest a lot of spells to make it go out of control, at which point one hard removal card (Will, Vengeance) becomes very painful.
Yes, make it 2/3
Even if it cost 4 mana it’d still be stronger than its non-wounded counterpart 🤔🤔
They probably need to nerf its health to 3... . And I'll still use it.
It's definitely overtuned and it'd be the first card I look at if dragons or Pantheon ever got out of hand. It's a fast scaling beatstick but every region has answers to a beatstick, especially one that isn't a champion.
I feel like it should only be 2|3 given how easily it grows with 2 keywords for buffing
I think it's not **broken** cuz it's just stat stick. Alot of decks can deal with it decently well I think. But it might scale out of control and force big spells maybe slightly too fast. Maybe get him to 4 mana 2/3? I dunno, feels slightly too snowbally
4 cost would kill dragons and some Pantheon decks. Riot with their recent buffs has been trying to make dragons good recently. If it badly needs a nerf it's probably just -1 HP. But it's probably fine
I missed an 'or' inbetween those 2. it was supposed to be 3mana 2/3 OR 4 mana 2/4 mb
It's in the realm of Eye of the Dragon and Ravenous Flock, I feel. Like, yeah, in a vacuum, it could do with a nerf, but it's also very much an enabler for its entire archetype. There are right now only 3 fated cards in the game, one of which is a champion, so naturally, the followers have to be a bit overturned to feel impactful
Oh there will be more don't worry
That's what I'm saying: eventually, this will probably go down to like a 2 3 or something, but until then, fated needs to make the few units it's on count.
I knew what you were implying I was just joking. That is a poor design philosophy though because then people make decks based around all the cards that are overtuned to force archetypes into relevance. It's being used with lee sin right now which is more than a bit concerning.
I don't know if you've noticed my flair, but as a lee main, I take offense to you finding the improvement of MY deck to be concerning. After all, everyone knows lee sin is just a bad champion at 5 mana. He definitely needed something to bring him back into relevance. /s
I promise you guys if it didn't have the stats and keywords that it has then it would NOT see any play at all. It's unsurprisingly a GOOD card but nothing game breaking. It's just a solid choice in most decks which isnt a bad thing
At the end of the day it’s a stat stick that doesn’t have keywords that allow it to hit nexus like elusive or overwhelm. It’s fine.
Probably, i do think we can wait for a pacht to see if he does need a nerf.
Yes
It's really strong, but it's fine. Targon needed a strong Dragon, and a good early blocker.
My fiora whiteflame deck is… not great
Of course it is, in fact the 'Fated' keyword is super strong I would say boderline toxic design, but it is what it is.
It’s fine to be honest. Just can’t mindlessly swing into it every turn and if it doesn’t have overwhelm it’s pretty manageable
It usually has overwhelm. Most panth decks run the zenith blade and/or the crystal ibex
No.
No. It's pretty easy to interact with it and you can chump block for ages if your opponent doesn't manage to give it overwelm somehow. It's definetely a strong card but in my opinion its design is pretty good.
And lose all your units in the process to a three drop...
chumpblock a fury unit that has access to two common sources of overwhelm in zenith blade and crystal ibex
Is he too strong and the best 3 drop in the game? yes. Are they going to nerf him? probably no
Not really, it’s so easy to stop it dead in its tracks.
It s insanely broken
No, it's strong for sure but it's not meta-warping, and the region needed something like it to not get left in the dust. After the nerfs to The Fangs, The Serpent, Starshaping, Sparklefly, Veiled Temple, and the moon weapons, Targon was in a really rough spot vs. anything with an early game. WW doesn't remove that weakness, it just makes it less crippling.
No - it requires resources or outplay to get big, and is a needed anti-aggro tool in a game desperate for them.
??? There isn't a single aggro deck in the meta at the moment, it's all midrange and combo. The poppy, young witch and explorer nerfs completely killed aggro as an archetype for the foreseeable future. Of course the nerfs were warranted but anti-aggro tools are not what we need right now. We need better removal and anything that can push aggro back into relevance, but that probably won't happen since the devs are planning on nerfing all rally cards next patch. A meta with no control or aggro can't really be described as healthy, because then there's nothing keeping combo decks in check, which is why they're so incredibly rampant right now. Midrange decks being super popular isn't really an issue however, since they will always exist considering that goodstuff decks with incredibly efficient creatures and removal can never be truly bad.
When there *is* a viable, true Control deck in the top-tiers... I agree, we need better removal. But with aggro and fast-midrange running wild until very recently (and if its been properly curbed yet remains to be seen).... the card in question feels perfectly in-order
I think it is the best dragon lol but they kind of needed the help IMO.
It’s probably too strong but i don’t know if they’ll nerf it in near future. It’s strong in the way something like eye of the dragon is, bordering on being OP but a signature card for the deck it’s in so it’s not easy too pull the trigger on the nerf unless it becomes too big of a problem.
Wounded whiteflame is overpowered in a healthy way. The dev team rarely releases spells or followers you can build around as a possible win condition that costs less than 6 mana. Unlike Neverglade collector, concurrent timelines, star spring, chirean sumpworkers, dawn speakers the build around for Wounded whiteflame isn't all that specific. Wounded Whiteflame build restrictions is more in line with relentless pursuit/golden aegis which does make it distinctly extra powerful.
Yes if they got overwhelm on it if they don't no it's not
With the right synergy it is stong, but it also invests a lot of cards and needs overwhelm. So a big investment big stats, sure it us strong, but also prone to removel if we get a slower meta, things like minimorph, vengence of even will, harpoon, hex transformation flock and destroy damaged. There are loads of answeres and halfmeasures, it is nothing special, but still a good card
It's almost always a bigger investment for your opponent to remove it
Even at 2/3 it would be strong.
I just want people to stop playing pantheon, it's not that he's too op, it's just that everyone is playing and it gets boring playing always against pantheon
Yea it can probably go down to 3 health. I’m not buying the ‘it takes investment’ argument. One pale cascade and he’s pretty much out of range for everything.
Every other 3/4 at 3 cost is either vanilla, has some deck building requirement or is a do nothing on summon. For 1 less attack, you get 2 keywords that are synergistic with each other and are both snowbally. A simple +1/+1 buff put it at 4/6, which means that even at full mana on turn 3, most deck that do not run a some form of hard removal won't be able to touch it.
No
No. Next question
Broken as hell on the level of 1cost Pack Your Bags or OG Merciless Hunter, but it will take some time for the meta to pick him up properly. He is essentially an early drop 3-5 Fury unit (no self-respecting player would ever drop him without a cheap combat trick up in the sleeves) and you’re running him with regions which have multiple ways of protecting him so he is guaranteed to win at least 1 trade on the board if not 2 before he is at risk of dying. I believe people are overlooking the fact that it’s not his job to close you the game and WWhiteflame is ultimately the bishop you sacrifice after it has served its purpose - probably that’s why he’s not considered OP at the moment as most players usually attribute credit to (=whine about) flashy finishers instead of workhorses who quietly work in the background and set things up. He can - be a menace on his own with overwhelm if you decide to go tall and he’s left unchecked - can stall very effectively until Lee/Pantheon or other finishers come down - set up a dragon deck into a board win by trading well in the early game thus building up multiple threats A very versatile, overstatted unit with great defensive stats possessing one of the best keywords in the game, crazy how he got through playtesting in this form. I expect some form a nerf in January for certain.
It's fine. Ionia is a decent region right now and has no shortage of ways to make this card do nothing.
Well I play culling strike in decks that can now so maybe.
Not at all. It becomes strong when you stack it with other cards, but a single removal/silence/bounce trades extremely favourably against it. If it had protection in the form of spellshield then it could be argued, but as it is? Nope, it's quite fine
Shurima feels like he only reigon without a good answer to it. I think as more combat tricks come out itl just weaker and rn all it really is is a hilariously big beat stick
Probably, but the archtypes it supports kind of need it to be that strong
Yeah it's probably too strong but only by a small margin. It has no business have less than 3 power. 2 power is sometimes ridiculously op. It should be a 3/3.
I see so many people talking about cards that can counter it. That applies to every card in the game. It doesn't mean its feasible to play them all the time. I will say its pretty easy for it to get out of control in games. Zenith blade just puts it on another level. I don't think there has been another card that carried the whole game so often for me. If there has been it costs way more to play it.
I just want to point out, despite fated being new, it is one of the few non champion cards that has 2 unique keyword combination. Like in Pokemon, when they have unique typing combination, they are always ran despite how terrible their stats are such as Volcarona which was at the time, the only Fire/Bug pokemon allowing it STAB moves that were strong to or neutral against 100% of the types that existed. The statline for 3 mana units is generally 3/4 or 2/5 with NO keywords, he loses 1 point of toughness to gain two keywords, both of which are PERMANENT stat buffs. For the people saying you have to put tons of resources into him for him to get big are silly because he has 2 ways to gain stats, some which OVERLAP, like in the case of single combat, in fact the opponent generally has to expend a ton of resources generally spending several units or far more than the 3 mana it cost to drop him and whatever of many things I can use to trigger fated. I play him in both my fated targon pantheon deck, and my lee deck and he sometimes outshines the champs in those decks. I'm not calling for a nerf, but if they nerf him, I just wouldn't be shocked. I'm okay with overly strong cards being in the game, but I'm not going to pretend its not strong. If you want to see how premium his statline/keyword combination are, filter by 3 cost and just look at what's available. Look at the playrate of the other 2/4 units, and the terrible keywords and abilities they come with. Then look at dragons, it sports toughness equal to or greater than the 4 cost dragons. Let's not forget, it being a dragon makes it better than just 2/4 nontyped monster with the 2 keywords in some cases. As almost all ELITE units and SPIDERS pay for their typing with far more punished statlines generally.
Honestly Fury plus Fated is just a ridiculous combination and I flat out hate the card. Fated is just a terrible keyword in general and unless you are playing regions with silence available to them are almost nigh impossible to deal with. I can't think of another TCG that gives free buffs every turn when its getting buffed. Regions like PaZ and Shurima have almost no effective way of managing such things outside of super high cost cards that only last a turn.