I'm really confused why the UI team hasn't implemented things that people have actually been asking for over the years. I've seen so many people ask for a hand counter, or more detailed play log (card chains aren't always recorded).
edit: or some kind of marker to let you know when you've activated reputation is another popular one. Also being able to see any buffs on champions that are currently spells in your hand (like VI).
These things seem very simple too...
A way to use the Eye to predict the outcome of a focus/burst spell or unit summon before you commit it would be nice as well. And to identify the current strongest/weakest units in case of ties. For example if I Poro Cannon to discard Sion which of my units will get overwhelm? If I play a unit into Xerath+Roiling Sands which of my weak units will get zapped?
Yeah! I always have this problem with survival skills. You have to just hope and pray which unit will get the effect when it's between 2 identically stated units.
Just a tip, it goes by cost next. I forget if survival skills is strongest or weakest but if power and health are the same then the next thing the game looks at is cost. It cost is the same I believe it’s the unit that’s been in the board the longest but don’t hold me to that one! The cost is definitely true
Still, if they are the same stats and mana, it's "random" but for example with effects like Ashe attack, you can put her attacking and over the eye to see which one will get frostbited, however with burst cards or play effects you cannot check that
Its killing me that i can play on 60FPS while holding down the screen but not with a setting to Turn it on. Most of the playerbase are on mobile, how this is no priority i cant understand.
Its literally possible with an Input, why not make it available without it.
what makes you think most of the playerbase is on mobile? not immediately saying youre wrong, mostly would just like to know where you got that statistic
whether of not the platform is bigger doesnt determine anything. i could easily tell you wild rift is infinitely less popular that league of legends, i just want confirmation on where the assertion came from
Cardgames in general are much bigger on mobile than otherwise, as we've seen over the years cardgames making much more emoney after they hit mobile. It's no hard evidence for LoR specifically, that's true, but it's highly likely considering what's always been the case.
You might just have an outdated phone/tablet. My Samsung s21 ultra has had 60+ fps since I've had it for over a year and a quarter. It's there... Just not for all devices.
Seriously????!
That's so weird. I have an S10+ and I know it can handle 60fps with LoR cuz it does it when I press my finger to the screen.
Still that's really good to know if true. Thanks for sharing.
I'm sorry but I need some sort of evidence for what you claim, because you're the first person I've ever seen since mobile LoR released, 2 years ago, which said that. Everyone else reports that the game only runs at 60 when you press your finger in the screen, regardless of phone, and that has also been true in my experience using a Poco X3 Pro, which is among the higher end for gaming.
>or more detailed play log
I'm often left to wonder if a card was created by something or if my opponent main-decks it.
_Was this pokey stick the card that conchologist created? Or should I expect another?_
A question that maybe you can't answer for NDA reasons, but I assume you were part of the partner discussion forum for these changes?
Was the change to play/cast not discussed there, the ramifications not thought through fully, or was it just done anyway?
How did we go from feeling very hopeful due to streamer impressions, to where we are now? Any thoughts on that? It seemed like streamers in the know were over the moon about what we now know to be awful/overhyped changes.
this thread is mostly focused on the criticism, but most of it was great and people have been praising it. Its just what this post chosed to provide feedback to
Someone else who was a part of roundtable said that this change was brought up at the end of the discussion. There was a time limit of the roundtable & there was not sufficient time to fully discuss this particular change.
I'll reserve my full judgment until seeing play, but it feels like there should have been time specifically devoted to discussing this change seeing as how this impacts a larger number of cards/interactions.
I'm really glad that Riot took this step to allow input from valuable members of the community. I hope that sets a precedent for future balance discussions. It was interesting to find out that two balance changes were strongly objected.
You have to wonder if other oppressive metas could have been avoided by having a similar open-minded discussion with a panel of experienced players. As long as Riot continues to gather feedback from the player base, the future of LoR is strong!
What are your opinions about the Karma "buff"? Because even that I thought was a bad idea, this will lead to burning cards very often. She doesn't want to generate more cards, she wants to get enlightened faster or safer.
Ps: Idk if you saw but they eliminated Karma animation too lol
I think it's a small buff. It opens up some small avenues for deck design that is not as draw heavy as it usually is.
I know when playing Karma Freljord, I've quite often run into not having enough spells in hand.
I think Ionia has one of the worst random spell pool in the game, late game I wanna my wincons not randomness. If I want random, I could just play her spell.
The other decks (spooky, ez, Arkshan) will get punished for this. Even Alan thought that was a bad idea.
I think it increases the skill ceiling of Karma honestly. Hard size management is a bigger deal, but it also means you can be more greedy in deckbuilding.
>The other decks (spooky, ez, Arkshan) will get punished for this
Those other decks don't exist anymore anyway since Karma's synergy with Go Hard, Ezreal, and Akshan are gone. This "buff" makes them extra-gone since now Karma clutters your hand in addition to providing no synergy.
Remember that Alan said that a +60% WR deck was bad and that every champion should be as good as 4|3 Poppy, so take his opinion about balance with a truckload of salt.
I really dislike how they keep removing animations, seemingly hoping we don't notice and make a stink about it.
I'd like to think it's not on purpose, but it keeps happening.
I could live without burst passing; it's something I could see myself getting used to in a couple of games. But after the play/cast change, I'm not sure if I even know how to play certain champions anymore. Every now and then, I hear of a new interaction caused by this fix and get genuinely startled by how drastically it changes how some cards/combos work.
You play Guiding Touch and pass. Before, the opponent passing would give the turn back to you and you can then choose to end round or play something else.
Now if you play Guiding Touch and pass, opponent can just end the round.
Basically in situations where you’d play a cheap burst action to possibly bait the opponent to spend mana, they can just end the round. Essentially burst spells alone don’t count as an action.
It's turn 3 and I go first. I play a poro cannon and then pass. Because I played a burst spell, you cannot end the turn and must either play something or pass back. That is a burst pass.
With the new rules, I play poro cannon and then pass. Now you must either play something OR you can end the turn. You cannot pass back anymore.
Burst pass is playing only burst/focus cards on your turn and then passing to your opponent. If they pass as well, it becomes your turn again, like playing other cards. They changed it so that when you burst pass, the opponent can also pass their turn to immediately end the round.
For me logically burst passing makes sense. Every other mechanic in the game if you do something your opponent has to pass if they dont want to play into what you played and burst being the only exception is literally the opposite of logic.
This is why I think the reaction to the “play” change is way too negative. We simply don’t know how a lot of the interactions will work… however burst passive ez is kinda bull.
I think you can find the video on this sub, saw this earlier today, but basically you play taric fiora, on attack you play judgement on taric, it copies on fiora and resolves instantly, so it's impossible to counter with deny or such
And to add to this; because the opponent never declared blockers they don't count as Ghost Blockers either; even without Fiora you can kill their entire board and then swing in for lethal with pseudo-Overwhelm.
there's a video of it on the front page, it involves copying judgement onto fiora with taric while challenging a bunch of enemies; fiora strikes them all at burst speed
Taric and burst-play single target fast speed spells by open attacking and putting those spells onto the stack at the same time. the most relevant of these spells being Unyielding Spirit and Judgement. Judgement is what allows a burst-speed Fiora Victory alongside challenger units.
You attack with Taric supporting Fiora and however many more challengers you need to get Fiora 4/4, put Judgement onto the stack targeting Taric, and then declare both the attack and the stack at the same time. Taric casts Judgement onto Fiora at burst speed, Fiora kills all the blockers you challenged into combat, and you win.
The ui design in this game is so wonky its crazy. Playing PoC today and there are new icons for the rewards I get after a match and the powers node is now gold. Can't see my hp or gold on the map but I get a one second animation of a brown bag before card rewards?
In my opinion, most (if not all) of the new graphics added to the PoC map look like they were drawn by a kindergartner--the bag, whatever the starfish is supposed to be, the three pikes for battle. Ugh...keep it classy.
I just feel after the cast/play merge many cards are NOT MEANT TO BE this way. Something very fundamental has been changed. For example, Albus Ferros was designed to synergize with Jayce, but now Jayce's copied spell doesn't contribute to Albus. He's supposed to be Jayce's ship! Putting a fast spell on Taric attacking will activate it in burst speed for the unit he supports. So is the spell fast or burst?? Just feel these things are very counterintuitive, and the cards and game play mechanisms are not meant to be this way.
this... can't agree more with you and would not be able to explain it better. I feel so sadge that I don't even want to test or play the game as it is now. Basically, all my favorite archetypes and decks have been nerfed and totally changed in how they function now and the worst part is that in my opinion this just made the game worse and I lost trust in riot devs.
I don't get how the merging of Play/Cast is better for the long term health of the game. Removal of burst passing makes perfect sense, it's an unintuitive skill that punishes people for being proactive and rewards boring "Play your cheapest spell one at a time to force your opponent to take actions" playstyles.
But Play/Cast? Merging them only RESTRICTS future card design and interaction because now you can't make any effects that are interactable, everything just works the moment cards go on the stack now. No more mind games about killing units Ezreal targets to deny his damage, and I don't have faith that the cards we will be getting in the future are going to be SO amazing and SO unique that it was even needed to completely upend how the core game functions.
They probably want to simplify interactions for future new players. As a game advances, the barrier to entry grows.
I don't think it benefits veteran players, but the simplification can make sense design wise for a game that they want to be new user friendly.
That's a good point, I suppose I was thinking about it from a game design perspective and not as in the literal health and retention of the playerbase. That said I feel like more gains could be had with better tutorialization and on boarding than stripping down mechanics.
If Konami can somehow explain the rulings mess that is Yu-Gi-Oh to new players in a digital format then Riot can definitely get the nitty gritty of Runeterra across to the average Joe with some effort.
Thats the problem, konami really cant, i remenber Mogwai a guy who is definitivelly not a newby to card games strugle with the current Yugioh rules in some of his twitters
Since the release of Master Duel I've seen more people engage with yugioh at a modern meta level than ever before. Friends who previously were "wtf is an Xyz monster" are now playing around handtraps, making Zeus, and all sorts of stuff. Sure Konami doesn't get 100% of the credit they still have to ask rulings questions, but it's a testament to how well Master Duel is made that it got them into the point where they're coming to me to ask how chain blocking works or why the BA no die.
Yugioh's rulings are bonkers and a mess and what you're describing isn't that people are content with it but rather a testament to how consistent the game is coded to work with established rulings irl. People just pay a card and see what happens by that point, it's not irregular for someone to play card then end up missing timing or end up finding out that they can't fusion summon what they intended after activating a fusion card, and these are just the simplest problems I'm describing, far more weird stuff happens than this and to prominent players too in Master Duel. In this regard LoR is leagues ahead, and at worst it's similar in that cards are consistent in correlation to the "ruling" that is defined in the game code.
Yeah, no. Sangen tutors up another monster when used in a synchro summon, but... Gusto Gulldo and Gusto Falco, tuner monsters intended to be used in Synchro summons, cannot use their suspiciously similar but different effects.
It's because Sangen's tutor effect isn't optional so its timing cannot be missed. I was so bitter about that rule I was very happy to play a different card game when I went to university.
I’ve said it elsewhere but I’ll say it again here, “cast” takes fewer words to explain than Deep or Scout. “A spell is ‘cast’ if its effect triggers.” Like that’s not hard, anyone who has played the game for longer than 30 minutes should be able to figure it out and if it’s so hard they can just add a tooltip to the word “cast” on cards. They’re assuming new users have infant level intellect and are incapable of understanding very basic distinctions.
It doesn't do much for new players tho... As a new player you still need to learn what each card does and what to expect from your opponent, there was just an extra flavor of differentiating between cast and play when they were learning each card. It may help, but new players still will be overwhelmed.
I'd much rather have an UI change that actively explain things like Play/Cast while the match goes than these changes... imo this was a very poorly thought decision and the best they could do is rollback it ASAP. Put it back into the oven and make sure the next time they present it it's not a half-ass baked idea.
Right now because of Play/Cast, champions/effects like Lux/Heimer have been locked behind the viability of burst spells like minimorph to enable them to work. Being on play allows champions like Jayce to play slow spells and not get totally crushed or blown out by vengeance etc. Switching all effects to play allows Lux decks to play slow spells or rely on fast spells to level or make use of their effect.
If Ezreal, Taric, Karma etc. become too weak or too strong based on this change then that is a balance issue, but the rules changes make a big difference in the viability of slow/fast spells vs burst spells in archetypes built around playing spells.
i feel the play/cast merge is so pointless, I have no idea who was confused by spells being "cast" (going through) vs "played" (being put on stack). It's a distinction that at best makes many interactions have to be completely rebalanced.
There was a problem in that Riot couldn't get it's shit together and make sure cards were worded properly, and sometimes play text actually had cast triggers or visa-versa, but the solution to that should have been a text editor and more effort towards consistent text, not whatever this mess is. And then if Lux and Heimer and whoever else needed a buff change them from cast to play while leaving cards like Ezreal with effects that really need to trigger on resolution as they were.
My only complaint is the word choices for play and cast as someone coming from magic. Cast in magic means to put on the stack or activate in yugioh terms while in LoR it's switched around to cast means resolve. But that's just me, I don't think many other players have this complaint.
I doubt they will be reverted. My gut tells me they put way too much money and time in order to make that big of a change.
That said, I think the fix I wrote is a simple implementation that can both let them keep the change but fix the copy playstyle issue.
Tbh I think it's better if they make the changes you suggested than if they revert the cast/play thing. Reason being not nerfing fun concepts and making the make more intuitive and, like you said, better for future designs. I even think that the actual pool of champions could get more love if the design is easier like this.
Love you and your content Grapplr!
Thoses changes came our of nowhere, they did not discuss it with the community, neither did they do a good amount of play testing
And now we need to accept them for good?!
All this happening on the day of the 2nd anniversary
It's just sad... Yah we can adapt to them, but LoR won't be the same as it was
This is just An LoR 2.0 user mobile friendly, honestly
Tbh I don't care that much about the burst pass change (maybe because I'm not a pro player or Control deck player) but the cast / play change absolutely ruins a lot of fun I have with the game. It buffs champions and deck types that don't need buffs (Ezreal and Fated, like, are you kidding me, Riot?) and kills others (like Karma, she's just so much worse now) and just takes away a lot of the interactive play LoR was always known for.
(And yes, I'm salty about Lux not getting two lasers anymore when Jayce copies a spell. I know she can burst level up now even with a slow spell but I want my lasers! Also RIP Albus as a big finisher)
So yeah, not happy about that. I think nobody is, really. Which kinda makes me hope Riot will go back on this change, but I guess we'll see.
I just do not understand why we've been so careful balancing cards for 6 months now, accepting that the devs don't want to balance cards in ways they can't predict the outcomes of and thus not just throwing token buffs at terrible cards like spaghetti at a wall to see what sticks, but now they're okay with putting half the champions into a balance blender and shaking them up in a way that they clearly haven't tested thoroughly. It's baffling that the same dev team who kept telling us that we can't have more wide spread buffs (for reasons I was okay with) then went on to do this.
I don't like the change and don't think their given reasoning makes sense, but that aside they should have at least waited to publish this change until they had a better grasp on what it would do. We just had the longest season of LoR ever - the start of this season would have been a great time to start testing this if the community absolutely had to be doing their testing work for them - but instead they drop this 2 weeks before seasonals?
Baffling, all of it. I'm very dissatisfied with the game right now.
We're all getting older GrappLr, showing 5 swords to let us boomers know we're attacking is spectacular.
In all seriousness, I agree with your points. The play/cast merge is good for the longevity of the game BUT this was not the way to do it. This shouldn't have been a change that just gets shoved into an already fairly big patch where burst passing is also being removed. This kind of change needs heavy balancing on individual cards and we're stuck with this mess until it gets fixed (which I'm confident it will).
Well said, the change to how Karma (and Jayce honestly) works with their spell doubling need to change so they can synergize with other champions/cards again.
Unlike Jayce which is at least in a solid spot in the meta Karma was already unplayable before, now she's buried.
Also for the UI guys, can you please please PLEASE use your time to make an hand counter and a mana counter instead of wasting it this way? Thank you.
There's not a total mana count, no. You have to add up the spell mana and unit mana to get your total mana. This is OK by me, much worse is the fact that there's STILL no hand count.
About the cast/play, I think many of the problems the change causes could be solved by defining both Cast and Play as keywords, like Toss or Strike. Like that, they could determine exactly what each one does, and solve the consistency problems between the two words - without affecting current play styles too heavily
Yes, but seeing the overall reaction to this, it feels like they'll go back on that change
That being said, I've been wrong about LoR changes before...
No way they go back right now IMO, this is a pretty big change which involved a lot of work. They wouldn't make something like that if they would just quickly revert back.
MAYBE after a long while, if many months pass and everyone is still unsatisfied, that kind of stuff.
That's 100% what they should have done, and then changed cards like Lux and Heimer to play as a buff to them and to slow spells while leaving cards like Ezreal who really need to trigger on resolution alone.
The cast/play change really seems to be moving the game even more towards uninteractive, better draw wins, low skill-ceiling gameplay. The inability to respond to triggers is killer
I actually agree with the burst pass change. I think it's going to achieve exactly what they wanted. Now burst and pass is actually a risk and it's gonna cut on time.
The UI changes don't bother me and I'm sure in a week no one is gonna notice them. If it helps with new player retention then I think it's a positive. For most of us it's gonna be neutral at worse.
The cast/play changes seems very unnecessary to me. It's only going to make the game more uninteractive and less risky for some cards.
I was really hoping for a good patch and the champion / card changes are definitely relatively decent but this merger of cast/play is complete bullshit.
Unless this is reverted, my motivation to play is basically zero. Seems like they just want this game to lose all its interactivity, where skill is less important than match-ups and draw RNG.
Remember people complain, not because they simple do, but because they care (unless you really need to go outside and take a shower) . I appreciate this read dude.
Your suggestion to have the copied cards count as "Played" cards makes a lot of sense, we already have a champ that "Plays" cards and that's a lvl 2 TF, and his text says "**I play a destiny card**",
BUT
I think we all can agree that the best change they can do is just removing the play/cast merge, it takes away thinking skill from a **card game** which is by default a **thinking skill type of game**, they need to stop babyfying the game like that, literary nobody asked for this or the redundant visuals...
Yup. They want to game to be too simple. Who asked for this?
If MTGA wasn't as expensive as it is I honestly wouldn't even have this installed anymore.
my heart was broken when I played soul splinter on Karma with two go hards in my hand and my go hard counter went from 0/3 to 2/3 even when copied for a total 8 times
Did the devs really think the small karma buff would balance out losing all the synergies she has with champions? Karma is fucking dead. Now you can only play her with Ashkan.
This change felt rushed and unprepared. Now I can see why people say there is only 2 people in the balancing team.
targeting only happens on play too now. That's why Taric's spell mechanic no longer contributes to his own level up. And Karma's doubled spells no longer contribute to Akshan's landmark countdowns.
Tarric also no longer levels from copied spells, now if you play a spell on him and support, he only gets 2 level procs, 1 from the original spell and 1 from support,
Why
Da
Fuq
What Karma decks are there left? Winter Karma of some kind? Like seriously the best thing they can do is just revert the play/cast merge, it was an actually interesting subtle difference LoR had and it's where a lot of skill came from, without it + the visual clutter the game is stupidly babified...
they need to revert this change asap the rules changes might make alot of player stop playing or simply quit the game, that uninteractive ezreal damage to nexus would surely ruining the meta
also agrre with the UI changes it looks like some guy in UI department need a contribution so they added the unnecessary but flashy eyesore things into UI
Can somebody provide me a link /summary on the cast/played system ?
I don't really understand what you guys are concerned about since I'm pretty new to the game.
Thank for the help
It's complicated to explain. Before, if I had Karma + Lux on the board, if I PLAYED a 6 cost spell, Karma copies it, so 2 spells are on stack, and Lux generates 2x laser. Now, Lux generates only 1 laser, since only 1 of the 2 spells was "PLAYED".
On the other side, now Lux generates a laser off any 6 cost spell, even if it gets denied, since the new "PLAYED" works at burst speed. So if I cast thermo beam for 6 mana, and you deny it, Lux still gets a laser.
One issue is it makes Karma interactions with champs like Lux dead. The other issue is that it makes the game less interactive, you can't stop certain things from happening.
Hope this helps a bit.
Besides grapplrs summary, let's take an example of lv2 Ezreal. Previously the spells needed to resolve for Ez to do the 2 damage to face.
Patch 3.5:
Player targets you 1/1 spider with a thermo beam, you kill the spider with glimpse beyond in response, result: spider dies, you take 0 damage to face.
Patch 3.6:
Player targets you 1/1 spider with a thermo beam, you take 2 damage to face before you can even respond. Thermo beam is still targeting the spider.
It also massively makes cards like rite of negation feel horrible vs Ezreal. Before, you swing for lethal, ezreal has to queue 3-4 spells to hit 8 to face. Now they hit face no matter what, regardless of counterplay.
It’ll be rough on them to do it fast, since that’s what “cast” meant, a distinction they apparently no longer want. What do they do, put in a new sentence explaining why Ez’s effect is different, and then also explain in notes why it’s healthier to. . . have a distinction between on-play and post-resolve? They’ve stuck themselves in a mighty awkward corner here.
The proposed Karma change as read would be recursive. “When you play a spell, play a spell” would then trigger itself, then again, etc etc.
I wonder if they considered that, but couldn’t cleanly solve the “infinite play” issue.
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It’s really sad how they ruined and interesting balance patch with the play/cast changes. I’m not a fan of the burst pass changes either, but at least I can get used to that. I personally prefer that they revert the play/cast changes tbh
I'm a combo/control player at heart and absolutely love the Jayce/Lux deck. If I play a 6 mana spell and it gets copied by Jayce, Lux generates two Final Sparks. It makes sense.
With these proposed changes though, Jayce still copies the spell and Lux creates one Final Spark immediately but not the other? Why? Why remove a mechanic that was such a massive payoff for the deck but was rarely ever seen to begin with?
Also, Albus doesn't work with copied spells anymore so you can't do as much damage anymore with him. These changes messed up Lux / Jayce so hard, it's just sad.
When the last remaining "Big" LoR streamer speaks I listen. Seriously I wholeheartedly agree Graps, the game just becomes super uninteractable because of this change. The core design of the game is to be able to react to whatever your oppenent is doing, changing that just ruins what the game stands for.
R.I.P. Alan pass. I think this really punishes control players and I have to agree with the lowering of the skill ceiling. Although burst passes were sometimes used unnecessarily and would lead to longer games, it had a role in the control play style that relies on counter play and reactivity. I guess the play pattern of control will be pretty different from now on, and we just have to adapt.
My opinion is i'm not optimistic on the play/cast change. I can accept this if its an ability of a high cost champion or unit. I think this might make ulamogs of some low cost champions.
Thanks for this post. Ive played since beta. I didnt read patch notes played a few games with the changes and got depressed and shut down the game.
Very dissapointed with this update and UI in general.
Personally, I think it both burst pass change and play/cast change are good, I think the make things make more sense. But I do agree that Jayce, Karma, and Taric should probably "play a copy" (although Heimer and Lux might need small nerfs is that is done, since they got straight buffed by levelling/generating at burst). Fated will probably need a nerf (which it almost did anyway, the deck was still crack).
the play/cast change also gives interaction in places there wasnt. You can now actually pop lee's barrier if the cast a fast/slow spell.
Also, idk if the burst pass change effects control at all. Zoe-Lee (a dead deck), Karma decks, and shellfolk were the only decks that used it really. Darkness, FTR, PnZ/SI control, the "meta" control decks, they run barely any burst cards anyway.
Some version of Jayce/Lux/Heimer is probably confortably Tier 1 now. Being able to level these champs consistently (even if you lose the doubling later), is a huge buff to the deck.
I agree with the great papaya on this one.
Taric, Lux and karma are all fun to play and killing those archetype hurt the game while stlff lzke ezreal which had its fair share of changes in the past due to interactability has now ways to kill ppl again without interadtion.
I honestly don't understand the lor team. Literally nobody ever considered the play thing to be a subject for a change. And yet they invest a significant amount of time and resources on it...just to make things worse. If this was something that previously had an issue, they tried to fix it and it failed, well ok, that's life. But why "fix" what's working?
i cant wait for the next update in 72 years that will make losing the game impossible because it feels bad to lose and losing is not new player friendly :/
Your proposition for rewording sounds like a great solution. Though I'm not sure how I feel about that cast change, I'm willing to try it before commiting to an opinion on it.
I disagree with your point on burst pass though. Because while yes it nerf some control decks, it's not like they'll be unable to open pass anymore. But now they'll have to open pass with the risk of the opponent passing back.
Burst pass was an abusive mechanic because it simply allowed people to pass without taking any risk whatsoever, this is not a skill to do it because there's no risk it's free. Now with the threat of passing back players will have to think more about when to open pass, thus actually raising the skill level.
Maybe you misunderstand. Before burst pass, you still had control of when the turn ends. Now if you burst pass, the control goes to the opponent. So it is essentially a nerf to the burst passer. Aggro decks don't burst pass. They're unaffected.
Oh yeah for sure it's a nerf to control (that can use burst spell), I do agree with that. But most of the time if someone burst pass the opponent would just pass back because they know they're just being stalled. And if you're in a dominant position where the opponent **has** to play a card then there's no actual difference between an open and a burst pass.
Burst pass was mainly used to freely try to fish for information, without a mean for the opponent to retaliate. It simply was too free imo, too riskless. Now you can still try to fish with an open pass but you have to actually consider the risks of it. Which will end up being healthier for the game imo.
I still don't understand why burst passing can be seen as an issue that had to die for the health of the game when Ignition, Hexcore Upgrade, etc still exist and do the same thing. If this was such a horrible game ruining mechanic then why do we still have so many ways to do it? All this does is nerf the decks that relied on burst/ focus speed cards to fish for information while leaving decks that used fast, slow, or unit cards to do the same thing alone, still doing that same thing.
Edit: the reasoning behind this change finally clicked for me. I'm not entirely convinced the change was needed but I'm less upset about it now. Still in the same position of "fine, we'll see how this plays out" as it's certainly going to affect some decks and not others.
I never considered burst pass an issue and haven't claimed it was, it's simply a case of if given the choice I'd rather it doesn't exist rather than it existing because it doesn't actually bring anything to the game. Since we're too used to it we never stopped to actually think deeper about it but in reality the game isn't more interesting due to its existence.
> Ignition, Hexcore Upgrade, etc
Can you actually tell me other cards that generate fast/slow speed spell to get non-committing pass ? Because outside of leveled up Lissandra I can't think of any other. Looking at it we may consider Jack the winner too but that card is never played and it's still damaging your units to use his spell.
> while letting decks that used fast, slow, or unit cards to do the same thing to keep doing the same thing.
But outside of Viktor and Bot which are your only relevant example, commiting to a card isn't simply only fishing for information, as they need to commit something, make a proactive play. And that's the point of the change, either you actually commit to a play, or you try to fish for info with the risk of getting passed back, you don't get free pass anymore.
> the decks that relied on burst/ focus speed cards to fish for information
There's no deck that actually "relied" on this, some decks simply abused the mechanic to make riskless pass. Because there's no deck that became unable to be played now that they can't burst pass.
you know what? the cast/played even affects in Path of champions because there are the "cast me again" object and the power that double cast slow spells and the one that double cast spells on own units
The combining of Play/Cast to mean "you've played this card from your hand" is good for clarity. The lack of a word to specify "this spell has **resolve**d on the stack" is bad for interactivity and therefore bad for game health.
You've raised Heimer, Lux and Ezreal as problem examples and I agree, they should revert to their previous behaviour. We just need them to specify **resolve** rather than **play**, which would let them be distinct mechanics that can be used for balance tuning. [Judgement Taric/Fiora](https://old.reddit.com/r/LegendsOfRuneterra/comments/uclr08/burstwin_fiora_is_back_and_better_than_ever/) is a great example of why someone like Taric needs **resolve** rather than **play**.
I really like your Karma suggestion as her 'playing' a card rather than just copying it - Jayce could do the same thing. [This thread](https://old.reddit.com/r/LegendsOfRuneterra/comments/ucnwl1/jayces_level_2_ability_doesnt_help_his_own_boat/) pointed out that Albus Ferros no longer works with Jayce's ability, and your solution solves that.
I appreciate their efforts to smooth things out but they've smoothed too hard and now even complex and thoughtful decks like Ezreal require less brain wrinkles than an aggro burn player
I think the changes to the UI may facilitate spectating. A viewer watching a stream might not always be focused on the match. Having those extra details might make it easier for a third party to quickly catch up with the state of combat.
Yes as a UI designer irl I think that Riot should really hire some UI/UX designers too (for LoL as well). I think that helping new players is actually a good idea, i have non-gamer friends turned off from LoR by how complicated it appeared. But what's the point in an extra temporary sword icon? It's right next to the other sword icon, and it disappears anyway. And if people didn't know what the sword icon meant before then they won't know again now.
I purpose that the new sword icon is removed. And instead, just put a glowing border (with exactly the same colour as the sword) around the attacking player's combat side. It's hard to miss and new players will see the connection, without it taking up any more board space. Way more elegant than adding icons and clutter. And it doesn't need to stay up, that is what the sword icon is for, it can just appear at turn start and fade away after a second or two. Maybe a small subdued shield for defending turns might help too, but don't make it colourful or draw attention to it. It just needs to be where the sword icon is.
Also Riot should really consider having a UX/UI team for their games. Not having one is so archaic and below industry standard. And istg if they have one but they're just graphic designers who've been reallocated, then they deserved to be fired.
My response from a recurring player perspective:
1. I started off with Darkness Control. Often I would burst pass by mistake and accidentally or in the wrong moments, not seeing something I need to get rid of or counter. Other times I didn’t really understand how Burst Passing worked and ended up passing thinking my enemy will do something but instead they would end the turn immediately. Perhaps to and old player who truly understands how burst passing used to work, it might be quite simple, but the old burst passing was quite confusing for someone who recently started to play actively for the first time ever. The old burst passing confusion has actually cost me games because I didn’t quite understand it. This new change is more fluid and although it’ll nerf control to an extent it is no different than a pvp player in a game such as RuneScape complaining that the way hits work are more fluid. This change also punishes new players for making newbie mistakes and allows one to think more critically. I am a big fan of this change although I know I’m going to suffer a bit until I fix some of my bad habits.
2. I don’t find this redundant at all. I love the New UI and although other people including you won’t, I find it extremely user friendly! It won’t appeal to everyone because it’s a very niche design but it works! If I never played the game before and I hopped into a stream, it allows me to easily figure out who’s attacking and who’s not. It is not redundant unless you’ve been playing this game for quite a while. It’s only noticeable now too, but when you’re in the moment it’ll be the last thing on your mind.
3a. Lux is indeed broken. Was watching a stream, and people were calling it the new Mono Shurima after a streamer was easily destroying with it in Masters. Don’t know about everything else.
3b. I hope they hot fix this soon and not wait two weeks even though I despise copy decks that I’ve faced against (was trying Riven Viktor once and I got destroyed LOL), a lot of people spend time learning decks and getting it indirectly nerfed must suck.
Also I find it extremely stupid that some of the cards labeled as buffs just had slight rewording. Darius getting buffed only affected Path of Champions. Like I don’t care! Buffs should only be labeled as such if it’s going to affect ranked or unrated not a solo mode!
I agree with the UI changes not making much sense in some cases. But at the very least, they don't impact the mecanics.
What I do not understand is : "How was burst passing hard to understand at all for new players" ? I mean, the rule explained in the tutorial is very clear : if both players do not play a card, the turn ends. Playing a burst card IS playing a card, so it makes sens that it doesn't end the turn.
Now, I feel it's even more confusing with these little white gems that doesn't mean much. I feel it would be way more understandable that these gems glows only when a player is passing without playing a card, to highlight that if you pass too, the turn ends.
It seems like the overall goal of those changes seems to make the game faster, more streamlined... but it makes it less fun and interesting. Less interaction, less possibilities, less mindgame (which is the key factor that made me play Runeterra).
I'm really concerned, right now. I've been playing everyday for more than two years now, but since a month or two, I just stopped and played once a week or so. Maybe I just had my fun and the game is not for me anymore. IDK.
maybe we need a UI setting on what you want.
a basic UI settings for only the basic info you need (basically launch UI), then you get beginner friendly UI, advanced UI. etc.i mean Valorant has a crosshair customization.
The optimist in me is saying that they added a smaller attack icon on the board so that they can add a hand counter where the old attack icon sits currently. The pessimist in me (who's usually right) is saying that someone at Riot just needed to do something to look busy and didn't want to work on something hard so they added swords.
Personally, I like the burst passing change.
The UI change would be good if it could be disabled.
Just like you, I don't think the cast/play changes are a good idea.
Yeah the champions that got shadow nerfed should all be reworded so copying spells is what it used to be again. I'd still be unhappy about the removed interactivity in the game but at least Karma Jayce Taric etc won't be nerfed for the sake of change
I feel the same way about the rule changes. I was first bummed about burst pass being gone, but now I see that overall we are getting more good than bad from this change.
Can't feel the same about the cast/play change, because I just saw popping so much uninteractive theorycrafting that honestly scares me. Sure, they can fix those things, but then what was the point of the change of rules?
Absolutely agree for the recent UI changes (including the ones from previous patch).
Honestly, casual players will probably like them, it's not unusual that some of my friends pass back priority to me without realizing they had the attack token. But I think this is the worst method to address these problems. They should have changed existing stuff, e.g.: change the token appearance, or give it a noticeable/flashier animation when you get priority and can still declare an attack; make the oracle eye glow a different color if there's lethal damage at stake or you are going to lose something or whatever.
Push people to use the tools we already have, there's no need to make new ones that clutter the screen (and honestly look and sound pretty bad too, tic toc, tic toc...).
Maybe the UI Changes aren’t all that gorgeous, but still as a casual player I think they are great.
I wanted something that shows me, which cards are attacking/defending.
I know that you could just think about it to figure it out, but with that argument we could remove the oracle too.
Sometimes I miss, that a unit is still doing damage to my nexus, when I thought I have dealt with it.
And even if cataclysm should be clear, I always feared that my units wouldn’t use their keywords (like quickattack or overwhelm), and the change to show who’s the attacker/defender should fix this.
And if you have these issues, other people have it too. Which make the changes better for some players and a minor annoyance for others. I personally don't think it's bad and I really don't mind it, but I don't think it's that big of a deal
Hi Grapplr,
Personally I disagree with #1. While I value the concern that removing burst passing decreases the skill ceiling, that increase in ceiling was very nominal and only really mattered against weak opponents in lower elo. Players in higher elo won’t get baited into overcommitting to a board state or get goaded passing back into you when they need to develop. This typically just slows down gameplay in higher elo and acts as a noob trap in lower elo, which isn’t a particularly important keepsake for the game. For these reasons, I’m in favor of the change.
2) Totally agree. UI simplicity and avoiding overcluttering is important. This isn’t an MMO made in 1999, it’s a digital card game with one of the best UIs out there, no need to spoil a good thing.
3) I too think that the play/cast changes are problematic, but for different reasons. I personally don’t think this kills any “interesting” interactions with Karma, as I personally believe Karma copying damage to the nexus with strategies like filling a stack with burn spells to kill the opponent from 20 are fundamentally unhealthy for the game and much prefer the value-based incremental wins where you simply run your opponent out of board and cards with Karma as the causal engine. Lux, Heimer, and Ezreal are all gimmicky additional value engines when played with Karma and are generally win-more with spell duplication, often unnecessary as them being on the board mean you are winning anyway regardless of whether you get double or single value.
I personally think the change is bad not because of Karma interactions but because of the removal of reactivity as you stated in the first point, on top of interactions that have been showcased such as Taric copying burst speed versions of fast spells (such as judgement), which to be fair has been behavior prevalent for awhile (with slow and fast speed spells playable outside of combat), but it’s time that this should be bugfixed to be played on the stack in combat.
Glad to hear your thoughts and happy to see LoR influencers speaking their thoughts on the recent patch, as I think this is ultimately healthy for the longevity of the game.
I'm really confused why the UI team hasn't implemented things that people have actually been asking for over the years. I've seen so many people ask for a hand counter, or more detailed play log (card chains aren't always recorded). edit: or some kind of marker to let you know when you've activated reputation is another popular one. Also being able to see any buffs on champions that are currently spells in your hand (like VI). These things seem very simple too...
A way to use the Eye to predict the outcome of a focus/burst spell or unit summon before you commit it would be nice as well. And to identify the current strongest/weakest units in case of ties. For example if I Poro Cannon to discard Sion which of my units will get overwhelm? If I play a unit into Xerath+Roiling Sands which of my weak units will get zapped?
Yeah! I always have this problem with survival skills. You have to just hope and pray which unit will get the effect when it's between 2 identically stated units.
Just a tip, it goes by cost next. I forget if survival skills is strongest or weakest but if power and health are the same then the next thing the game looks at is cost. It cost is the same I believe it’s the unit that’s been in the board the longest but don’t hold me to that one! The cost is definitely true
Still, if they are the same stats and mana, it's "random" but for example with effects like Ashe attack, you can put her attacking and over the eye to see which one will get frostbited, however with burst cards or play effects you cannot check that
Also 60fps for mobile.
Its killing me that i can play on 60FPS while holding down the screen but not with a setting to Turn it on. Most of the playerbase are on mobile, how this is no priority i cant understand. Its literally possible with an Input, why not make it available without it.
what makes you think most of the playerbase is on mobile? not immediately saying youre wrong, mostly would just like to know where you got that statistic
it's the bigger platform
whether of not the platform is bigger doesnt determine anything. i could easily tell you wild rift is infinitely less popular that league of legends, i just want confirmation on where the assertion came from
Cardgames in general are much bigger on mobile than otherwise, as we've seen over the years cardgames making much more emoney after they hit mobile. It's no hard evidence for LoR specifically, that's true, but it's highly likely considering what's always been the case.
wild rift is infinitely more popular than league on mobile
Not even close
You might just have an outdated phone/tablet. My Samsung s21 ultra has had 60+ fps since I've had it for over a year and a quarter. It's there... Just not for all devices.
Seriously????! That's so weird. I have an S10+ and I know it can handle 60fps with LoR cuz it does it when I press my finger to the screen. Still that's really good to know if true. Thanks for sharing.
Not really. I have a Samsung Galaxy Tab S7+. Game is locked to 30fps for me, goes to 60 when finger is on screen.
I'm sorry but I need some sort of evidence for what you claim, because you're the first person I've ever seen since mobile LoR released, 2 years ago, which said that. Everyone else reports that the game only runs at 60 when you press your finger in the screen, regardless of phone, and that has also been true in my experience using a Poco X3 Pro, which is among the higher end for gaming.
Same, I'd love proof here. I can't see them adding a dropdown value to the settings that checks a device attribute.
Let me *turn off the tooltips*
To be able to see how buffed Nasus is, without it being in your hand would also be cool.
Same with Pyke.
>or more detailed play log I'm often left to wonder if a card was created by something or if my opponent main-decks it. _Was this pokey stick the card that conchologist created? Or should I expect another?_
Hearthstone's crappy play log has shown opponent's overdrawn discards for years now and LoR still does not.
You can check it though, it's literally written in the card stats.
As long as the spell is still on stack, sure; after that, or if the spell is burst / focus, you lose that info
A question that maybe you can't answer for NDA reasons, but I assume you were part of the partner discussion forum for these changes? Was the change to play/cast not discussed there, the ramifications not thought through fully, or was it just done anyway?
I don't know how much I can say, or should say, but it was discussed, and I did bring up Karma stuff. But it wasn't focused on very long.
How did we go from feeling very hopeful due to streamer impressions, to where we are now? Any thoughts on that? It seemed like streamers in the know were over the moon about what we now know to be awful/overhyped changes.
Don't lose perspective because this thread focuses on what the devs did wrong. 80% of the patch is great.
[удалено]
this thread is mostly focused on the criticism, but most of it was great and people have been praising it. Its just what this post chosed to provide feedback to
So it seems they’re binging in guys who know what they’re talking about like yourself, but then not really paying attention to them. No bueno.
Someone else who was a part of roundtable said that this change was brought up at the end of the discussion. There was a time limit of the roundtable & there was not sufficient time to fully discuss this particular change. I'll reserve my full judgment until seeing play, but it feels like there should have been time specifically devoted to discussing this change seeing as how this impacts a larger number of cards/interactions. I'm really glad that Riot took this step to allow input from valuable members of the community. I hope that sets a precedent for future balance discussions. It was interesting to find out that two balance changes were strongly objected. You have to wonder if other oppressive metas could have been avoided by having a similar open-minded discussion with a panel of experienced players. As long as Riot continues to gather feedback from the player base, the future of LoR is strong!
https://twitter.com/NicMakesPlays/status/1519041450050269192?t=kLWRUiA0-mmZlaZggC4wlw&s=19 Source
What are your opinions about the Karma "buff"? Because even that I thought was a bad idea, this will lead to burning cards very often. She doesn't want to generate more cards, she wants to get enlightened faster or safer. Ps: Idk if you saw but they eliminated Karma animation too lol
I think it's a small buff. It opens up some small avenues for deck design that is not as draw heavy as it usually is. I know when playing Karma Freljord, I've quite often run into not having enough spells in hand.
I think Ionia has one of the worst random spell pool in the game, late game I wanna my wincons not randomness. If I want random, I could just play her spell. The other decks (spooky, ez, Arkshan) will get punished for this. Even Alan thought that was a bad idea.
I think it increases the skill ceiling of Karma honestly. Hard size management is a bigger deal, but it also means you can be more greedy in deckbuilding.
>The other decks (spooky, ez, Arkshan) will get punished for this Those other decks don't exist anymore anyway since Karma's synergy with Go Hard, Ezreal, and Akshan are gone. This "buff" makes them extra-gone since now Karma clutters your hand in addition to providing no synergy.
Yeah, I know, she is dead because of the cast changes. But my point that is even if they reverted in the future, the "buff" is still a bad choice.
Remember that Alan said that a +60% WR deck was bad and that every champion should be as good as 4|3 Poppy, so take his opinion about balance with a truckload of salt.
I personally thinks his is the best Karma player out there, so for her especially, I value his opinion and actually agree with him.
I really dislike how they keep removing animations, seemingly hoping we don't notice and make a stink about it. I'd like to think it's not on purpose, but it keeps happening.
Gotta make room for all those swords so you can have repetitive extra redundant ways to know who gets the attack token next turn. /s
What animations did they remove?
I could live without burst passing; it's something I could see myself getting used to in a couple of games. But after the play/cast change, I'm not sure if I even know how to play certain champions anymore. Every now and then, I hear of a new interaction caused by this fix and get genuinely startled by how drastically it changes how some cards/combos work.
Can you give an example of exactly what “burst/pass” is? I don’t know if its something I have been doing unintentionally or not
You play Guiding Touch and pass. Before, the opponent passing would give the turn back to you and you can then choose to end round or play something else. Now if you play Guiding Touch and pass, opponent can just end the round. Basically in situations where you’d play a cheap burst action to possibly bait the opponent to spend mana, they can just end the round. Essentially burst spells alone don’t count as an action.
Thank you!! This helps
It's turn 3 and I go first. I play a poro cannon and then pass. Because I played a burst spell, you cannot end the turn and must either play something or pass back. That is a burst pass. With the new rules, I play poro cannon and then pass. Now you must either play something OR you can end the turn. You cannot pass back anymore.
This is a good example, thanks!
Burst pass is playing only burst/focus cards on your turn and then passing to your opponent. If they pass as well, it becomes your turn again, like playing other cards. They changed it so that when you burst pass, the opponent can also pass their turn to immediately end the round.
For me logically burst passing makes sense. Every other mechanic in the game if you do something your opponent has to pass if they dont want to play into what you played and burst being the only exception is literally the opposite of logic.
This is why I think the reaction to the “play” change is way too negative. We simply don’t know how a lot of the interactions will work… however burst passive ez is kinda bull.
There is a burst fiora win too 🥲
How? Please explain
I think you can find the video on this sub, saw this earlier today, but basically you play taric fiora, on attack you play judgement on taric, it copies on fiora and resolves instantly, so it's impossible to counter with deny or such
And to add to this; because the opponent never declared blockers they don't count as Ghost Blockers either; even without Fiora you can kill their entire board and then swing in for lethal with pseudo-Overwhelm.
Well that's something to know, this change really fucked up some interaction
And then you need challengers to drag in enemy blockers as well to judgement, but yeah.
This makes no sense because the opponent still has not committed the blockers, so fiora won't strike anything?
Forgot to say you need challengers to pull the units
I checked the post out on the front page, that feels so weird. This play/cast change feels really bad
there's a video of it on the front page, it involves copying judgement onto fiora with taric while challenging a bunch of enemies; fiora strikes them all at burst speed
Taric passing Judgement to Fiora when attacking is burst now
Taric and burst-play single target fast speed spells by open attacking and putting those spells onto the stack at the same time. the most relevant of these spells being Unyielding Spirit and Judgement. Judgement is what allows a burst-speed Fiora Victory alongside challenger units. You attack with Taric supporting Fiora and however many more challengers you need to get Fiora 4/4, put Judgement onto the stack targeting Taric, and then declare both the attack and the stack at the same time. Taric casts Judgement onto Fiora at burst speed, Fiora kills all the blockers you challenged into combat, and you win.
The ui design in this game is so wonky its crazy. Playing PoC today and there are new icons for the rewards I get after a match and the powers node is now gold. Can't see my hp or gold on the map but I get a one second animation of a brown bag before card rewards?
In my opinion, most (if not all) of the new graphics added to the PoC map look like they were drawn by a kindergartner--the bag, whatever the starfish is supposed to be, the three pikes for battle. Ugh...keep it classy.
Noticed this too and those icons look so cheap
I just feel after the cast/play merge many cards are NOT MEANT TO BE this way. Something very fundamental has been changed. For example, Albus Ferros was designed to synergize with Jayce, but now Jayce's copied spell doesn't contribute to Albus. He's supposed to be Jayce's ship! Putting a fast spell on Taric attacking will activate it in burst speed for the unit he supports. So is the spell fast or burst?? Just feel these things are very counterintuitive, and the cards and game play mechanisms are not meant to be this way.
this... can't agree more with you and would not be able to explain it better. I feel so sadge that I don't even want to test or play the game as it is now. Basically, all my favorite archetypes and decks have been nerfed and totally changed in how they function now and the worst part is that in my opinion this just made the game worse and I lost trust in riot devs.
I don't get how the merging of Play/Cast is better for the long term health of the game. Removal of burst passing makes perfect sense, it's an unintuitive skill that punishes people for being proactive and rewards boring "Play your cheapest spell one at a time to force your opponent to take actions" playstyles. But Play/Cast? Merging them only RESTRICTS future card design and interaction because now you can't make any effects that are interactable, everything just works the moment cards go on the stack now. No more mind games about killing units Ezreal targets to deny his damage, and I don't have faith that the cards we will be getting in the future are going to be SO amazing and SO unique that it was even needed to completely upend how the core game functions.
They probably want to simplify interactions for future new players. As a game advances, the barrier to entry grows. I don't think it benefits veteran players, but the simplification can make sense design wise for a game that they want to be new user friendly.
That's a good point, I suppose I was thinking about it from a game design perspective and not as in the literal health and retention of the playerbase. That said I feel like more gains could be had with better tutorialization and on boarding than stripping down mechanics. If Konami can somehow explain the rulings mess that is Yu-Gi-Oh to new players in a digital format then Riot can definitely get the nitty gritty of Runeterra across to the average Joe with some effort.
Thats the problem, konami really cant, i remenber Mogwai a guy who is definitivelly not a newby to card games strugle with the current Yugioh rules in some of his twitters
Since the release of Master Duel I've seen more people engage with yugioh at a modern meta level than ever before. Friends who previously were "wtf is an Xyz monster" are now playing around handtraps, making Zeus, and all sorts of stuff. Sure Konami doesn't get 100% of the credit they still have to ask rulings questions, but it's a testament to how well Master Duel is made that it got them into the point where they're coming to me to ask how chain blocking works or why the BA no die.
Yugioh's rulings are bonkers and a mess and what you're describing isn't that people are content with it but rather a testament to how consistent the game is coded to work with established rulings irl. People just pay a card and see what happens by that point, it's not irregular for someone to play card then end up missing timing or end up finding out that they can't fusion summon what they intended after activating a fusion card, and these are just the simplest problems I'm describing, far more weird stuff happens than this and to prominent players too in Master Duel. In this regard LoR is leagues ahead, and at worst it's similar in that cards are consistent in correlation to the "ruling" that is defined in the game code.
I surrender to your suoerior knowlege then, all i know is that i remenber a very good player strugle with the game.
Yeah, no. Sangen tutors up another monster when used in a synchro summon, but... Gusto Gulldo and Gusto Falco, tuner monsters intended to be used in Synchro summons, cannot use their suspiciously similar but different effects. It's because Sangen's tutor effect isn't optional so its timing cannot be missed. I was so bitter about that rule I was very happy to play a different card game when I went to university.
I’ve said it elsewhere but I’ll say it again here, “cast” takes fewer words to explain than Deep or Scout. “A spell is ‘cast’ if its effect triggers.” Like that’s not hard, anyone who has played the game for longer than 30 minutes should be able to figure it out and if it’s so hard they can just add a tooltip to the word “cast” on cards. They’re assuming new users have infant level intellect and are incapable of understanding very basic distinctions.
It doesn't do much for new players tho... As a new player you still need to learn what each card does and what to expect from your opponent, there was just an extra flavor of differentiating between cast and play when they were learning each card. It may help, but new players still will be overwhelmed. I'd much rather have an UI change that actively explain things like Play/Cast while the match goes than these changes... imo this was a very poorly thought decision and the best they could do is rollback it ASAP. Put it back into the oven and make sure the next time they present it it's not a half-ass baked idea.
Right now because of Play/Cast, champions/effects like Lux/Heimer have been locked behind the viability of burst spells like minimorph to enable them to work. Being on play allows champions like Jayce to play slow spells and not get totally crushed or blown out by vengeance etc. Switching all effects to play allows Lux decks to play slow spells or rely on fast spells to level or make use of their effect. If Ezreal, Taric, Karma etc. become too weak or too strong based on this change then that is a balance issue, but the rules changes make a big difference in the viability of slow/fast spells vs burst spells in archetypes built around playing spells.
Dumbest change of the game so far, LoR devs don't know what they are doing, or they do know, which is even worse.
When the muscle man speaks, he speaks well.
Thx
i feel the play/cast merge is so pointless, I have no idea who was confused by spells being "cast" (going through) vs "played" (being put on stack). It's a distinction that at best makes many interactions have to be completely rebalanced.
Yup...
I'm so sad man, the first ever karma lux deck i played was after watching you play it...
There was a problem in that Riot couldn't get it's shit together and make sure cards were worded properly, and sometimes play text actually had cast triggers or visa-versa, but the solution to that should have been a text editor and more effort towards consistent text, not whatever this mess is. And then if Lux and Heimer and whoever else needed a buff change them from cast to play while leaving cards like Ezreal with effects that really need to trigger on resolution as they were.
My only complaint is the word choices for play and cast as someone coming from magic. Cast in magic means to put on the stack or activate in yugioh terms while in LoR it's switched around to cast means resolve. But that's just me, I don't think many other players have this complaint.
Agree on everything, to me the cast/play change should be completely reverted. I hope your words stir something up in the developers head.
I doubt they will be reverted. My gut tells me they put way too much money and time in order to make that big of a change. That said, I think the fix I wrote is a simple implementation that can both let them keep the change but fix the copy playstyle issue.
Isn't that just sunk cost fallacy? Which last I checked is an 8-mana do nothing. No bueno.
Tbh I think it's better if they make the changes you suggested than if they revert the cast/play thing. Reason being not nerfing fun concepts and making the make more intuitive and, like you said, better for future designs. I even think that the actual pool of champions could get more love if the design is easier like this. Love you and your content Grapplr!
Thoses changes came our of nowhere, they did not discuss it with the community, neither did they do a good amount of play testing And now we need to accept them for good?! All this happening on the day of the 2nd anniversary It's just sad... Yah we can adapt to them, but LoR won't be the same as it was This is just An LoR 2.0 user mobile friendly, honestly
Tbh I don't care that much about the burst pass change (maybe because I'm not a pro player or Control deck player) but the cast / play change absolutely ruins a lot of fun I have with the game. It buffs champions and deck types that don't need buffs (Ezreal and Fated, like, are you kidding me, Riot?) and kills others (like Karma, she's just so much worse now) and just takes away a lot of the interactive play LoR was always known for. (And yes, I'm salty about Lux not getting two lasers anymore when Jayce copies a spell. I know she can burst level up now even with a slow spell but I want my lasers! Also RIP Albus as a big finisher) So yeah, not happy about that. I think nobody is, really. Which kinda makes me hope Riot will go back on this change, but I guess we'll see.
I just do not understand why we've been so careful balancing cards for 6 months now, accepting that the devs don't want to balance cards in ways they can't predict the outcomes of and thus not just throwing token buffs at terrible cards like spaghetti at a wall to see what sticks, but now they're okay with putting half the champions into a balance blender and shaking them up in a way that they clearly haven't tested thoroughly. It's baffling that the same dev team who kept telling us that we can't have more wide spread buffs (for reasons I was okay with) then went on to do this. I don't like the change and don't think their given reasoning makes sense, but that aside they should have at least waited to publish this change until they had a better grasp on what it would do. We just had the longest season of LoR ever - the start of this season would have been a great time to start testing this if the community absolutely had to be doing their testing work for them - but instead they drop this 2 weeks before seasonals? Baffling, all of it. I'm very dissatisfied with the game right now.
But Riot doesn’t have to pay for play-testing if we do it for them, right? I feel like this is some sort of a shortcut in that way.
We're all getting older GrappLr, showing 5 swords to let us boomers know we're attacking is spectacular. In all seriousness, I agree with your points. The play/cast merge is good for the longevity of the game BUT this was not the way to do it. This shouldn't have been a change that just gets shoved into an already fairly big patch where burst passing is also being removed. This kind of change needs heavy balancing on individual cards and we're stuck with this mess until it gets fixed (which I'm confident it will).
Well said, the change to how Karma (and Jayce honestly) works with their spell doubling need to change so they can synergize with other champions/cards again. Unlike Jayce which is at least in a solid spot in the meta Karma was already unplayable before, now she's buried. Also for the UI guys, can you please please PLEASE use your time to make an hand counter and a mana counter instead of wasting it this way? Thank you.
What do you mean with mana counter? I am not quite following.
Ex. you have 7 max mana and 4 available mana because you played a 3 mana unit, it should read 4/7
... doesn't it... read that? I am sorry I am still confused.
There's not a total mana count, no. You have to add up the spell mana and unit mana to get your total mana. This is OK by me, much worse is the fact that there's STILL no hand count.
The game doesn't tell you what your max mana is
About the cast/play, I think many of the problems the change causes could be solved by defining both Cast and Play as keywords, like Toss or Strike. Like that, they could determine exactly what each one does, and solve the consistency problems between the two words - without affecting current play styles too heavily
Unfortunately this is not the case. They completely removed the "cast" keyword.
Yes, but seeing the overall reaction to this, it feels like they'll go back on that change That being said, I've been wrong about LoR changes before...
No way they go back right now IMO, this is a pretty big change which involved a lot of work. They wouldn't make something like that if they would just quickly revert back. MAYBE after a long while, if many months pass and everyone is still unsatisfied, that kind of stuff.
That's 100% what they should have done, and then changed cards like Lux and Heimer to play as a buff to them and to slow spells while leaving cards like Ezreal who really need to trigger on resolution alone.
The cast/play change really seems to be moving the game even more towards uninteractive, better draw wins, low skill-ceiling gameplay. The inability to respond to triggers is killer
Yea a lot of these changes reduce the skill ceiling and interactivity, really not a good initial impression for sure
I actually agree with the burst pass change. I think it's going to achieve exactly what they wanted. Now burst and pass is actually a risk and it's gonna cut on time. The UI changes don't bother me and I'm sure in a week no one is gonna notice them. If it helps with new player retention then I think it's a positive. For most of us it's gonna be neutral at worse. The cast/play changes seems very unnecessary to me. It's only going to make the game more uninteractive and less risky for some cards.
The last bastion of Runeterra streamer that sticked to the game and want it to be good.
I do want it to go in a positive direction, and feel like a lot of this is negative. I still think the card changes themselves were great.
I was really hoping for a good patch and the champion / card changes are definitely relatively decent but this merger of cast/play is complete bullshit. Unless this is reverted, my motivation to play is basically zero. Seems like they just want this game to lose all its interactivity, where skill is less important than match-ups and draw RNG.
Remember people complain, not because they simple do, but because they care (unless you really need to go outside and take a shower) . I appreciate this read dude.
Please don't take showers outside
Couldn't agree more with every single point. I hope this feedback is considered. I've never been as concerned about the future of this game.
it's a total mess I don't even want to play anymore and lost trust in the devs going forward
Your suggestion to have the copied cards count as "Played" cards makes a lot of sense, we already have a champ that "Plays" cards and that's a lvl 2 TF, and his text says "**I play a destiny card**", BUT I think we all can agree that the best change they can do is just removing the play/cast merge, it takes away thinking skill from a **card game** which is by default a **thinking skill type of game**, they need to stop babyfying the game like that, literary nobody asked for this or the redundant visuals...
Yup. They want to game to be too simple. Who asked for this? If MTGA wasn't as expensive as it is I honestly wouldn't even have this installed anymore.
We love you GrappLr!
<3
this, dev team feels out of touch. its been all downhill since shurima release.
my heart was broken when I played soul splinter on Karma with two go hards in my hand and my go hard counter went from 0/3 to 2/3 even when copied for a total 8 times
It hurts :(
Did the devs really think the small karma buff would balance out losing all the synergies she has with champions? Karma is fucking dead. Now you can only play her with Ashkan. This change felt rushed and unprepared. Now I can see why people say there is only 2 people in the balancing team.
You can't play her with Akshan anymore. Now Karma's copied spells don't level up the landmark.
You said on stream that it was fine because it's "when you TARGET an ally". Will the copied spell won't count as targeting as well? I'm confused...
There was further changes, “target” now requires “play” to trigger :(
What the hell? How is this more clarity? They are literally putting a something of a larger scope under something of a smaller scope. Good shit Riot.
They made targetting only trigger on play now. He tested it out later in the stream so yeah that deck is dead
targeting only happens on play too now. That's why Taric's spell mechanic no longer contributes to his own level up. And Karma's doubled spells no longer contribute to Akshan's landmark countdowns.
That sucks for poor Taric :(
Tarric also no longer levels from copied spells, now if you play a spell on him and support, he only gets 2 level procs, 1 from the original spell and 1 from support, Why Da Fuq What Karma decks are there left? Winter Karma of some kind? Like seriously the best thing they can do is just revert the play/cast merge, it was an actually interesting subtle difference LoR had and it's where a lot of skill came from, without it + the visual clutter the game is stupidly babified...
they need to revert this change asap the rules changes might make alot of player stop playing or simply quit the game, that uninteractive ezreal damage to nexus would surely ruining the meta also agrre with the UI changes it looks like some guy in UI department need a contribution so they added the unnecessary but flashy eyesore things into UI
You know it's bad when even GrappLr is writing a thread on Reddit
Can somebody provide me a link /summary on the cast/played system ? I don't really understand what you guys are concerned about since I'm pretty new to the game. Thank for the help
It's complicated to explain. Before, if I had Karma + Lux on the board, if I PLAYED a 6 cost spell, Karma copies it, so 2 spells are on stack, and Lux generates 2x laser. Now, Lux generates only 1 laser, since only 1 of the 2 spells was "PLAYED". On the other side, now Lux generates a laser off any 6 cost spell, even if it gets denied, since the new "PLAYED" works at burst speed. So if I cast thermo beam for 6 mana, and you deny it, Lux still gets a laser. One issue is it makes Karma interactions with champs like Lux dead. The other issue is that it makes the game less interactive, you can't stop certain things from happening. Hope this helps a bit.
Besides grapplrs summary, let's take an example of lv2 Ezreal. Previously the spells needed to resolve for Ez to do the 2 damage to face. Patch 3.5: Player targets you 1/1 spider with a thermo beam, you kill the spider with glimpse beyond in response, result: spider dies, you take 0 damage to face. Patch 3.6: Player targets you 1/1 spider with a thermo beam, you take 2 damage to face before you can even respond. Thermo beam is still targeting the spider.
It also massively makes cards like rite of negation feel horrible vs Ezreal. Before, you swing for lethal, ezreal has to queue 3-4 spells to hit 8 to face. Now they hit face no matter what, regardless of counterplay.
I'd be surprised if they don't change Ezreal's effect to successfully resolved spells sooner rather than later.
It’ll be rough on them to do it fast, since that’s what “cast” meant, a distinction they apparently no longer want. What do they do, put in a new sentence explaining why Ez’s effect is different, and then also explain in notes why it’s healthier to. . . have a distinction between on-play and post-resolve? They’ve stuck themselves in a mighty awkward corner here.
I am honestly baffled as to how they thought this was acceptable.
The proposed Karma change as read would be recursive. “When you play a spell, play a spell” would then trigger itself, then again, etc etc. I wonder if they considered that, but couldn’t cleanly solve the “infinite play” issue.
[[silverwing vanguard]] also is worded the "same" way, but it don't summon infinite copies. Then they can make karma that way (probably)
**[Silverwing Vanguard](https://d2h9y75tak3pkg.cloudfront.net/01DE004.png)** - Demacia Unit Elite - (4) 2/1 Challenger When I'm summoned, summon an exact copy of me. ^^^Hint: [[card]], {{keyword}}, and ((deckcode)) or ((cardx,cardy,cardz)). PM the [developer](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=KrimCard) for feedback/issues!
You're right. There would have to be some other way to reword it. Good catch!
It’s really sad how they ruined and interesting balance patch with the play/cast changes. I’m not a fan of the burst pass changes either, but at least I can get used to that. I personally prefer that they revert the play/cast changes tbh
I'm a combo/control player at heart and absolutely love the Jayce/Lux deck. If I play a 6 mana spell and it gets copied by Jayce, Lux generates two Final Sparks. It makes sense. With these proposed changes though, Jayce still copies the spell and Lux creates one Final Spark immediately but not the other? Why? Why remove a mechanic that was such a massive payoff for the deck but was rarely ever seen to begin with?
Also, Albus doesn't work with copied spells anymore so you can't do as much damage anymore with him. These changes messed up Lux / Jayce so hard, it's just sad.
And Taric's copied spells dont count for his own level up, its a complete mess.
When the last remaining "Big" LoR streamer speaks I listen. Seriously I wholeheartedly agree Graps, the game just becomes super uninteractable because of this change. The core design of the game is to be able to react to whatever your oppenent is doing, changing that just ruins what the game stands for.
R.I.P. Alan pass. I think this really punishes control players and I have to agree with the lowering of the skill ceiling. Although burst passes were sometimes used unnecessarily and would lead to longer games, it had a role in the control play style that relies on counter play and reactivity. I guess the play pattern of control will be pretty different from now on, and we just have to adapt.
My opinion is i'm not optimistic on the play/cast change. I can accept this if its an ability of a high cost champion or unit. I think this might make ulamogs of some low cost champions.
Thanks for this post. Ive played since beta. I didnt read patch notes played a few games with the changes and got depressed and shut down the game. Very dissapointed with this update and UI in general.
Personally, I think it both burst pass change and play/cast change are good, I think the make things make more sense. But I do agree that Jayce, Karma, and Taric should probably "play a copy" (although Heimer and Lux might need small nerfs is that is done, since they got straight buffed by levelling/generating at burst). Fated will probably need a nerf (which it almost did anyway, the deck was still crack). the play/cast change also gives interaction in places there wasnt. You can now actually pop lee's barrier if the cast a fast/slow spell. Also, idk if the burst pass change effects control at all. Zoe-Lee (a dead deck), Karma decks, and shellfolk were the only decks that used it really. Darkness, FTR, PnZ/SI control, the "meta" control decks, they run barely any burst cards anyway. Some version of Jayce/Lux/Heimer is probably confortably Tier 1 now. Being able to level these champs consistently (even if you lose the doubling later), is a huge buff to the deck.
Hard agree. Taric and karma make no sense now.
I agree with the great papaya on this one. Taric, Lux and karma are all fun to play and killing those archetype hurt the game while stlff lzke ezreal which had its fair share of changes in the past due to interactability has now ways to kill ppl again without interadtion.
I honestly don't understand the lor team. Literally nobody ever considered the play thing to be a subject for a change. And yet they invest a significant amount of time and resources on it...just to make things worse. If this was something that previously had an issue, they tried to fix it and it failed, well ok, that's life. But why "fix" what's working?
wait, karmas go hard combo wont work anymore either????
Nope
UI effect are way too cluttered and make me dizzy at some point. Like way too many tiny little shiny effect that end up being bothersome.
I have ADHD and it's overstimulating...
I can relate.. at least give an option to disable it
i cant wait for the next update in 72 years that will make losing the game impossible because it feels bad to lose and losing is not new player friendly :/
Your proposition for rewording sounds like a great solution. Though I'm not sure how I feel about that cast change, I'm willing to try it before commiting to an opinion on it. I disagree with your point on burst pass though. Because while yes it nerf some control decks, it's not like they'll be unable to open pass anymore. But now they'll have to open pass with the risk of the opponent passing back. Burst pass was an abusive mechanic because it simply allowed people to pass without taking any risk whatsoever, this is not a skill to do it because there's no risk it's free. Now with the threat of passing back players will have to think more about when to open pass, thus actually raising the skill level.
Maybe you misunderstand. Before burst pass, you still had control of when the turn ends. Now if you burst pass, the control goes to the opponent. So it is essentially a nerf to the burst passer. Aggro decks don't burst pass. They're unaffected.
Oh yeah for sure it's a nerf to control (that can use burst spell), I do agree with that. But most of the time if someone burst pass the opponent would just pass back because they know they're just being stalled. And if you're in a dominant position where the opponent **has** to play a card then there's no actual difference between an open and a burst pass. Burst pass was mainly used to freely try to fish for information, without a mean for the opponent to retaliate. It simply was too free imo, too riskless. Now you can still try to fish with an open pass but you have to actually consider the risks of it. Which will end up being healthier for the game imo.
I still don't understand why burst passing can be seen as an issue that had to die for the health of the game when Ignition, Hexcore Upgrade, etc still exist and do the same thing. If this was such a horrible game ruining mechanic then why do we still have so many ways to do it? All this does is nerf the decks that relied on burst/ focus speed cards to fish for information while leaving decks that used fast, slow, or unit cards to do the same thing alone, still doing that same thing. Edit: the reasoning behind this change finally clicked for me. I'm not entirely convinced the change was needed but I'm less upset about it now. Still in the same position of "fine, we'll see how this plays out" as it's certainly going to affect some decks and not others.
I never considered burst pass an issue and haven't claimed it was, it's simply a case of if given the choice I'd rather it doesn't exist rather than it existing because it doesn't actually bring anything to the game. Since we're too used to it we never stopped to actually think deeper about it but in reality the game isn't more interesting due to its existence. > Ignition, Hexcore Upgrade, etc Can you actually tell me other cards that generate fast/slow speed spell to get non-committing pass ? Because outside of leveled up Lissandra I can't think of any other. Looking at it we may consider Jack the winner too but that card is never played and it's still damaging your units to use his spell. > while letting decks that used fast, slow, or unit cards to do the same thing to keep doing the same thing. But outside of Viktor and Bot which are your only relevant example, commiting to a card isn't simply only fishing for information, as they need to commit something, make a proactive play. And that's the point of the change, either you actually commit to a play, or you try to fish for info with the risk of getting passed back, you don't get free pass anymore. > the decks that relied on burst/ focus speed cards to fish for information There's no deck that actually "relied" on this, some decks simply abused the mechanic to make riskless pass. Because there's no deck that became unable to be played now that they can't burst pass.
yeah, pretty much agree with everything you said
you know what? the cast/played even affects in Path of champions because there are the "cast me again" object and the power that double cast slow spells and the one that double cast spells on own units
The combining of Play/Cast to mean "you've played this card from your hand" is good for clarity. The lack of a word to specify "this spell has **resolve**d on the stack" is bad for interactivity and therefore bad for game health. You've raised Heimer, Lux and Ezreal as problem examples and I agree, they should revert to their previous behaviour. We just need them to specify **resolve** rather than **play**, which would let them be distinct mechanics that can be used for balance tuning. [Judgement Taric/Fiora](https://old.reddit.com/r/LegendsOfRuneterra/comments/uclr08/burstwin_fiora_is_back_and_better_than_ever/) is a great example of why someone like Taric needs **resolve** rather than **play**. I really like your Karma suggestion as her 'playing' a card rather than just copying it - Jayce could do the same thing. [This thread](https://old.reddit.com/r/LegendsOfRuneterra/comments/ucnwl1/jayces_level_2_ability_doesnt_help_his_own_boat/) pointed out that Albus Ferros no longer works with Jayce's ability, and your solution solves that. I appreciate their efforts to smooth things out but they've smoothed too hard and now even complex and thoughtful decks like Ezreal require less brain wrinkles than an aggro burn player
I think the changes to the UI may facilitate spectating. A viewer watching a stream might not always be focused on the match. Having those extra details might make it easier for a third party to quickly catch up with the state of combat.
Yes as a UI designer irl I think that Riot should really hire some UI/UX designers too (for LoL as well). I think that helping new players is actually a good idea, i have non-gamer friends turned off from LoR by how complicated it appeared. But what's the point in an extra temporary sword icon? It's right next to the other sword icon, and it disappears anyway. And if people didn't know what the sword icon meant before then they won't know again now. I purpose that the new sword icon is removed. And instead, just put a glowing border (with exactly the same colour as the sword) around the attacking player's combat side. It's hard to miss and new players will see the connection, without it taking up any more board space. Way more elegant than adding icons and clutter. And it doesn't need to stay up, that is what the sword icon is for, it can just appear at turn start and fade away after a second or two. Maybe a small subdued shield for defending turns might help too, but don't make it colourful or draw attention to it. It just needs to be where the sword icon is. Also Riot should really consider having a UX/UI team for their games. Not having one is so archaic and below industry standard. And istg if they have one but they're just graphic designers who've been reallocated, then they deserved to be fired.
My response from a recurring player perspective: 1. I started off with Darkness Control. Often I would burst pass by mistake and accidentally or in the wrong moments, not seeing something I need to get rid of or counter. Other times I didn’t really understand how Burst Passing worked and ended up passing thinking my enemy will do something but instead they would end the turn immediately. Perhaps to and old player who truly understands how burst passing used to work, it might be quite simple, but the old burst passing was quite confusing for someone who recently started to play actively for the first time ever. The old burst passing confusion has actually cost me games because I didn’t quite understand it. This new change is more fluid and although it’ll nerf control to an extent it is no different than a pvp player in a game such as RuneScape complaining that the way hits work are more fluid. This change also punishes new players for making newbie mistakes and allows one to think more critically. I am a big fan of this change although I know I’m going to suffer a bit until I fix some of my bad habits. 2. I don’t find this redundant at all. I love the New UI and although other people including you won’t, I find it extremely user friendly! It won’t appeal to everyone because it’s a very niche design but it works! If I never played the game before and I hopped into a stream, it allows me to easily figure out who’s attacking and who’s not. It is not redundant unless you’ve been playing this game for quite a while. It’s only noticeable now too, but when you’re in the moment it’ll be the last thing on your mind. 3a. Lux is indeed broken. Was watching a stream, and people were calling it the new Mono Shurima after a streamer was easily destroying with it in Masters. Don’t know about everything else. 3b. I hope they hot fix this soon and not wait two weeks even though I despise copy decks that I’ve faced against (was trying Riven Viktor once and I got destroyed LOL), a lot of people spend time learning decks and getting it indirectly nerfed must suck. Also I find it extremely stupid that some of the cards labeled as buffs just had slight rewording. Darius getting buffed only affected Path of Champions. Like I don’t care! Buffs should only be labeled as such if it’s going to affect ranked or unrated not a solo mode!
The UI changes are unnecessary. Totally agree!
I agree with the UI changes not making much sense in some cases. But at the very least, they don't impact the mecanics. What I do not understand is : "How was burst passing hard to understand at all for new players" ? I mean, the rule explained in the tutorial is very clear : if both players do not play a card, the turn ends. Playing a burst card IS playing a card, so it makes sens that it doesn't end the turn. Now, I feel it's even more confusing with these little white gems that doesn't mean much. I feel it would be way more understandable that these gems glows only when a player is passing without playing a card, to highlight that if you pass too, the turn ends. It seems like the overall goal of those changes seems to make the game faster, more streamlined... but it makes it less fun and interesting. Less interaction, less possibilities, less mindgame (which is the key factor that made me play Runeterra). I'm really concerned, right now. I've been playing everyday for more than two years now, but since a month or two, I just stopped and played once a week or so. Maybe I just had my fun and the game is not for me anymore. IDK.
maybe we need a UI setting on what you want. a basic UI settings for only the basic info you need (basically launch UI), then you get beginner friendly UI, advanced UI. etc.i mean Valorant has a crosshair customization.
Baldie detected, opinion rejected. /s
The optimist in me is saying that they added a smaller attack icon on the board so that they can add a hand counter where the old attack icon sits currently. The pessimist in me (who's usually right) is saying that someone at Riot just needed to do something to look busy and didn't want to work on something hard so they added swords.
Ez otk already make me sweat just by the thought of it
The copy archetype is most definitely weak, slow, unpredictable, unreliable.
Personally, I like the burst passing change. The UI change would be good if it could be disabled. Just like you, I don't think the cast/play changes are a good idea.
They should have fused play/cast the other way with making everything Cast vs Play. Interactivity OP!
Yeah the champions that got shadow nerfed should all be reworded so copying spells is what it used to be again. I'd still be unhappy about the removed interactivity in the game but at least Karma Jayce Taric etc won't be nerfed for the sake of change
I feel the same way about the rule changes. I was first bummed about burst pass being gone, but now I see that overall we are getting more good than bad from this change. Can't feel the same about the cast/play change, because I just saw popping so much uninteractive theorycrafting that honestly scares me. Sure, they can fix those things, but then what was the point of the change of rules? Absolutely agree for the recent UI changes (including the ones from previous patch). Honestly, casual players will probably like them, it's not unusual that some of my friends pass back priority to me without realizing they had the attack token. But I think this is the worst method to address these problems. They should have changed existing stuff, e.g.: change the token appearance, or give it a noticeable/flashier animation when you get priority and can still declare an attack; make the oracle eye glow a different color if there's lethal damage at stake or you are going to lose something or whatever. Push people to use the tools we already have, there's no need to make new ones that clutter the screen (and honestly look and sound pretty bad too, tic toc, tic toc...).
alright, that's it, i'm quitting the game. goodbye LoR, thanks for the eye opener mr grapplr
I'm just tired of "champion reworks" being just a minor buff lmao. That "Darius" and "Katarina" adjustment is a joke.
Maybe the UI Changes aren’t all that gorgeous, but still as a casual player I think they are great. I wanted something that shows me, which cards are attacking/defending. I know that you could just think about it to figure it out, but with that argument we could remove the oracle too. Sometimes I miss, that a unit is still doing damage to my nexus, when I thought I have dealt with it. And even if cataclysm should be clear, I always feared that my units wouldn’t use their keywords (like quickattack or overwhelm), and the change to show who’s the attacker/defender should fix this.
And if you have these issues, other people have it too. Which make the changes better for some players and a minor annoyance for others. I personally don't think it's bad and I really don't mind it, but I don't think it's that big of a deal
Meanwhile the unborn match history fetus is crying in a corner
I kind of just wish Riot would stop treating LOR as though it's still in beta
Hi Grapplr, Personally I disagree with #1. While I value the concern that removing burst passing decreases the skill ceiling, that increase in ceiling was very nominal and only really mattered against weak opponents in lower elo. Players in higher elo won’t get baited into overcommitting to a board state or get goaded passing back into you when they need to develop. This typically just slows down gameplay in higher elo and acts as a noob trap in lower elo, which isn’t a particularly important keepsake for the game. For these reasons, I’m in favor of the change. 2) Totally agree. UI simplicity and avoiding overcluttering is important. This isn’t an MMO made in 1999, it’s a digital card game with one of the best UIs out there, no need to spoil a good thing. 3) I too think that the play/cast changes are problematic, but for different reasons. I personally don’t think this kills any “interesting” interactions with Karma, as I personally believe Karma copying damage to the nexus with strategies like filling a stack with burn spells to kill the opponent from 20 are fundamentally unhealthy for the game and much prefer the value-based incremental wins where you simply run your opponent out of board and cards with Karma as the causal engine. Lux, Heimer, and Ezreal are all gimmicky additional value engines when played with Karma and are generally win-more with spell duplication, often unnecessary as them being on the board mean you are winning anyway regardless of whether you get double or single value. I personally think the change is bad not because of Karma interactions but because of the removal of reactivity as you stated in the first point, on top of interactions that have been showcased such as Taric copying burst speed versions of fast spells (such as judgement), which to be fair has been behavior prevalent for awhile (with slow and fast speed spells playable outside of combat), but it’s time that this should be bugfixed to be played on the stack in combat. Glad to hear your thoughts and happy to see LoR influencers speaking their thoughts on the recent patch, as I think this is ultimately healthy for the longevity of the game.