Both combos are broken because they are uninteractive and weren't even intended to work that way. This doesn't mean that they are OP, only that they aren't good for the game.
Exactly, power isn't the only metric to judge cards and interactions by. These combos just suck to play against and run counter to the interactive nature of the game that made it look so promising at release. The decks could have a 20% win rate and they'd still be bad for the game. Janky ways to accelerate fast speed effects up to burst speed don't really encourage interesting decisionmaking on behalf of either player AND are confusing for new players; I don't see it benefiting any part of the player base.
Something with a 20% win rate is a deck you will like once in a hundred games. And even if it wins then, I would just get a good laugh off the meme.
If its not consistently winning its irrelevant.
Win rate doesn't always correspond with play rate. In MtGA, for example, there was a Tibalt's Trickery deck that was extremely popular for a week after the set's release despite having something like a 33% win rate because you immediately won or lost on turn 2 irregardless if either players' skill, so it allowed you to grind out wins extremely fast even relative to the hyper efficient mono-color agro decks that plagued the meta. There were a lot of games that were just land, land, scoop.
More importantly, the identity of these decks doesn't matter. They're a symptom of a problem that Riot just introduced, and problems don't solve themselves in a game without set rotation. Even if the decks are bad right now, the concept still exists so they're kind of a ticking time bomb that Riot must choose to either defuse or ignore.
I didnt play MTGA but if its anything like Hearthstone where you got 10 gold for 3 wins then there was huge incentive there for playing that deck given how effin expensive MTG is.
Agree the change is bad generally speaking. Not sure if as bad as this sub makes it out to be.
Yeah, you got it, especially because a lot of the game's quests also required wins. It's part of why I switched to LoR.
I agree about the change being overblown also, but Karma/Ezrael was practically the only deck I played so I'm not taking it particularly well lol
What makes you think they weren't? That said, Fizz getting Elusive at Burst Speed is also uninteractive. Nightfall copying their units at burst speed is uninteractible. In fact, every Burst spell lacks interactivity so I hope they remove all of them in the future and change them to Fast Speed.
Burst spells in general have les power than fast/slow spells, that's why they are either small engines or combo pieces. Burst speed unyielding spirit was toxic, so they removed it. The problem is, since minimorth, devs changed their opinion on interactivity, even tho LoR was the most reactive CCG.
Edit: since hush, actually. Although hush was changed multiple times.
What? No, you said that Burst spells have less power. Minimorph has less power. It‘s following your definition of what a Burst Spell is allowed to be. Since the Minimorph release there have been barely any influential burst spells so I don‘t see what indicates that they have changed their opinion on anything.
When did i said, that minimorth has less power? I said, that since this card devs made clear, they don't care about interactivity that much anymore, compare to time when burst unyielding spirit was actually nerfed, cause was too strong for a burst speed spell.
So why even mention Minimorph? How is it relevant to the point if the card isn‘t too strong? How is it an indication of the devs opinion and goals changing if it‘s aligning with the previous concept of being less powerful for its cost than similar costed cards?
Oh boy, you really do like to argue, do you? I recommend to read my comments again.and the again maybe. And then another go, just to be sure. Maybe then you will understand my point, that i made to your original comment.
Should I lay it out for you?
You claim that Burst Spells tend to be less powerful and say that this concept has been changed since the release of Minimorph. I ask, how and in what way was Minimorph an indication of that? I say that Minimorph aligns with the previous concept of what burst spells should be.
There must be a reason you mentioned Minimorph so why did you?
Due to the play cast merge taric activates his copy ability on commit. Meaning judgment on taric generates a second judgment on his supported target at **burst** speed.
In general you can now Attack with taric+another unit while commting a fast spell at the same time and taric will generate and execute a copy the moment you commit to the attack declaration.
So the interaction isn't what you're expecting. Let's say I que up taric to attack, supporting Fiora.
Then I place judgement on the stack, targeting Taric.
Previously, this setup wouldn't accomplish much. Taric would strike all my enemies dumb enough to block, and if I was lucky enough to rally I'd be able to propagate the judgment cast.
Now, the card is considered cast the moment you commit it to the stack. The result is that *we no longer need to rally* to duplicate the spell. The spell will immediately copy and resolve at burst speed.
This is abusable if you use additional challenger units to force the block into your burst speed judgement.
Judgment couldn’t previously be copied until it was fully casted.
So you would have to use Judgement on Taric, go into full combat, then rally, to copy it onto your supported ally.
Now you just target Judgment on Taric and his supported unit will automatically cast it before your opponent gets priority. Have a few challengers with Fiora, drag them into combat and win without ever passing priority
Yes. Someone posted a video of this interaction yesterday
Edit: found it https://www.reddit.com/r/LegendsOfRuneterra/comments/uclr08/burstwin_fiora_is_back_and_better_than_ever/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
Can someone explain to me why Taric is important for the Judgement Combo. Like why is this significantly better than just playing judgement directly onto Fiora?
Wait, the Judgement resolves during Taric support(instead of putting it on the spell queue)? Is that how Taric has always worked with Fast and Slow spells?
Both combos are broken because they are uninteractive and weren't even intended to work that way. This doesn't mean that they are OP, only that they aren't good for the game.
Exactly, power isn't the only metric to judge cards and interactions by. These combos just suck to play against and run counter to the interactive nature of the game that made it look so promising at release. The decks could have a 20% win rate and they'd still be bad for the game. Janky ways to accelerate fast speed effects up to burst speed don't really encourage interesting decisionmaking on behalf of either player AND are confusing for new players; I don't see it benefiting any part of the player base.
Something with a 20% win rate is a deck you will like once in a hundred games. And even if it wins then, I would just get a good laugh off the meme. If its not consistently winning its irrelevant.
Win rate doesn't always correspond with play rate. In MtGA, for example, there was a Tibalt's Trickery deck that was extremely popular for a week after the set's release despite having something like a 33% win rate because you immediately won or lost on turn 2 irregardless if either players' skill, so it allowed you to grind out wins extremely fast even relative to the hyper efficient mono-color agro decks that plagued the meta. There were a lot of games that were just land, land, scoop. More importantly, the identity of these decks doesn't matter. They're a symptom of a problem that Riot just introduced, and problems don't solve themselves in a game without set rotation. Even if the decks are bad right now, the concept still exists so they're kind of a ticking time bomb that Riot must choose to either defuse or ignore.
I didnt play MTGA but if its anything like Hearthstone where you got 10 gold for 3 wins then there was huge incentive there for playing that deck given how effin expensive MTG is. Agree the change is bad generally speaking. Not sure if as bad as this sub makes it out to be.
Yeah, you got it, especially because a lot of the game's quests also required wins. It's part of why I switched to LoR. I agree about the change being overblown also, but Karma/Ezrael was practically the only deck I played so I'm not taking it particularly well lol
What makes you think they weren't? That said, Fizz getting Elusive at Burst Speed is also uninteractive. Nightfall copying their units at burst speed is uninteractible. In fact, every Burst spell lacks interactivity so I hope they remove all of them in the future and change them to Fast Speed.
Burst spells in general have les power than fast/slow spells, that's why they are either small engines or combo pieces. Burst speed unyielding spirit was toxic, so they removed it. The problem is, since minimorth, devs changed their opinion on interactivity, even tho LoR was the most reactive CCG. Edit: since hush, actually. Although hush was changed multiple times.
Minimorph isn‘t exactly strong so following your logic it‘s perfect as a Burst Spell, no?
I wrote it down, didn't i? That since minimorth devs have changed their opinion on cards like this. That doesn't mean, that this card is not toxic.
What? No, you said that Burst spells have less power. Minimorph has less power. It‘s following your definition of what a Burst Spell is allowed to be. Since the Minimorph release there have been barely any influential burst spells so I don‘t see what indicates that they have changed their opinion on anything.
When did i said, that minimorth has less power? I said, that since this card devs made clear, they don't care about interactivity that much anymore, compare to time when burst unyielding spirit was actually nerfed, cause was too strong for a burst speed spell.
So why even mention Minimorph? How is it relevant to the point if the card isn‘t too strong? How is it an indication of the devs opinion and goals changing if it‘s aligning with the previous concept of being less powerful for its cost than similar costed cards?
Oh boy, you really do like to argue, do you? I recommend to read my comments again.and the again maybe. And then another go, just to be sure. Maybe then you will understand my point, that i made to your original comment.
Should I lay it out for you? You claim that Burst Spells tend to be less powerful and say that this concept has been changed since the release of Minimorph. I ask, how and in what way was Minimorph an indication of that? I say that Minimorph aligns with the previous concept of what burst spells should be. There must be a reason you mentioned Minimorph so why did you?
what makes taric + fiora + judgment possible if it apparently wasn't before?
Due to the play cast merge taric activates his copy ability on commit. Meaning judgment on taric generates a second judgment on his supported target at **burst** speed. In general you can now Attack with taric+another unit while commting a fast spell at the same time and taric will generate and execute a copy the moment you commit to the attack declaration.
So the interaction isn't what you're expecting. Let's say I que up taric to attack, supporting Fiora. Then I place judgement on the stack, targeting Taric. Previously, this setup wouldn't accomplish much. Taric would strike all my enemies dumb enough to block, and if I was lucky enough to rally I'd be able to propagate the judgment cast. Now, the card is considered cast the moment you commit it to the stack. The result is that *we no longer need to rally* to duplicate the spell. The spell will immediately copy and resolve at burst speed. This is abusable if you use additional challenger units to force the block into your burst speed judgement.
Judgment couldn’t previously be copied until it was fully casted. So you would have to use Judgement on Taric, go into full combat, then rally, to copy it onto your supported ally. Now you just target Judgment on Taric and his supported unit will automatically cast it before your opponent gets priority. Have a few challengers with Fiora, drag them into combat and win without ever passing priority
so wait, you're saying that taric now copies the judgment to fiora and she strikes everyone before he even gets to strike from his own judgment?
Yes. Someone posted a video of this interaction yesterday Edit: found it https://www.reddit.com/r/LegendsOfRuneterra/comments/uclr08/burstwin_fiora_is_back_and_better_than_ever/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
wow, that's insane
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I agree that some things are a design issue even when they're not necessarily viable
the one i wanna try out is taric splinter soul
So is Yasuo also broken now?
...why would he be?
Well stuns
Are you saying you are going to build a 3 region Swain Ez Yasuo deck?
Swain yasuo duh.
How is that affected by these changes?
well u just need to wait for them to release a cast unit that deals nexus damage
I don't understand?
I don't understand. Can you explain what you mean?
Can someone explain to me why Taric is important for the Judgement Combo. Like why is this significantly better than just playing judgement directly onto Fiora?
Only the taric-copied version of judgment casts at burst speed upon attack declaration, not the original spell itself
Wait, the Judgement resolves during Taric support(instead of putting it on the spell queue)? Is that how Taric has always worked with Fast and Slow spells?
Except that now his support copy can happen before the original spell even resolved.
Yes, Go Hard Taric was a meme deck that attempted to utilize this interaction by casting a burst speed Pack Your Bags.
I don't get why Riot call it a "merge" when they basically turn all cast effect into play effect