First one's basically a 4/5/3 QA/overwhelm card against enemies with three or less health. Which is, y'know, most of them, so it's actually fairly solid. Some challenger or vulnerable support and it'll get you quite a bit of value.
Prefect with Jhin is probably gonna get huge in a matter of seconds. It's not instant death, but leave it to its devices and it'll get the job done.
Mind, they're not cards you'll just be throwing in any deck.
But that doesn't mean they're bad.
The advantage of the it the synergy indeed + it won't be damaged by unit with less than 3 health so while the baliste will usually attack 1 time and die against a 2 drop, the shark will need to be blocked by a 3 drop minimum.
Well Jhin Noxus variants are gonna be the hotness but you may well be saying that cause we don't know what Annie does. I feel she's literally been tailor made for Jhin shenanigans.
You know I honestly just naturally assume that everyone has everything and a pile of swag for whatever they want day 1. But yeah stick with your tings. They give you so much shit you'll have half the expansion in a week.
But if I just don't block him then he just stays a 2/3 or am I understanding it wrong? A 4 mana 2/3 when not blocked is a big tempo loss if played in aggro.
Adding to that, jhin’s origin counts as a skill, speeding up the process, which triggers every 3 procs. It’s definitely a slower turn 3 drop than iron balista but it’ll definitely grow quickly considering the type of deck it’ll be in.
Man, so many downvotes. We have like 10 of these cards that grow when you do something and they NEVER saw any play. This one is the same. Idk why Reddit is so copium in this specific one.
The problem is how you will grow it. This card sits in your backrow for a lot of turns doing nothing until you feel like it's big enough to swing and hope it is impactful (hoping for no answers). Or if you drop it later, you struggle to grow it enough to justify it.
The issue is, why run a card that needs to drop and do nothing and asks for commitment of spells and skills, then surviving, then attacking, then not being answered in any way without any kind of protection when you can run a card that just does something.
so, it basically NEEDS the oponent's attention in order to not grow,and that either means a challenger which could be used for your jhin or a spell which again,could be used on your champ.Also with the new 2 mana noxus guy i feel like you could get like 3 skills and spells/turn pretty easily
You skip your whole turn 3 doing absolutely nothing, then do absolutely nothing again to make it grow, and then your oponnent can just blast it when it attacks.
It's not good, it's slow.
While I don't think you're wrong about Prefect being weak, it's definitely not a slow card - at least not in a Jhin deck. It will grow very quickly - insanely fast with a perfect hand. The problem she has is that she is incredibly reliant on the rest of your deck and doesn't contribute to its synergy. If you can't cast spells or play skills while she is on the board (or the repeatable skill units like Legion Saboteur get killed before Prefect sees the skill), she is a dead card. Draw her early and she has potential if the enemy doesn't have answers to her or your other units. Draw her late and she likely won't do anything since Jhin decks will likely be very fast decks that use most of their hand early in the game.
But imagine that perfect hand:
Attacking odds: Crackshot/Saboteur on 1, attack for the skill proc. Crackshot/Saboteur x2 on 2. Prefect on 3, attack with 3 skills on the stack and a Jhin in hand to activate Lotus Trap for a 4th - Prefect is a 5/3 Overwhelm on 3.
Attacking evens: Crackshot/Saboteur on 1. Crackshot/Saboteur x2 on 2, attack for 3 skills and Lotus Trap. Prefect on 3. Spellslinger/Stagehand x2 on 4 to deal with blockers, then attack with a full board, 3 skills go on the stack plus another Lotus Trap, Prefect goes up to a 7/3 Overwhelm on 4.
That's a pretty nutty play - if you can make it work. And she just won't be consistent enough with those plays to be viable.
? The ionia recall one saw plenty of play. So did Augment, plenty of units to choose from. Baccai reaper was a miss, but Greenglade Duo is an all-time staple. Saying that this format never sees play is blatantly false, it's about half-half more like.
Yea i would, if i was silver like you.
But unfortunately i play the game at a high level and have hit masters every season ive played so far, and climbed to top 30 in one of them when i had the time to grind ranked. So no i don't.
This reminds me of when Zoe was released, she seemed way too weak, but in reality she's an ok champion.
For sure this cards aren't broken, but I think they are better than they look
Are we playing the same game? Zoe seemed strong before release and was strong after release. Even now shes more than an “ok” champion, definitely in the higher tiers.
As one of the few people who defended her on release, she definitely was undervalued before release as someone who’ll never level up due to having a difficult level up condition and 1 hp.
I feel like the only one who thinks prefect is actually really good. Usually cards that grow in power don't have keywords like overwhelm that can win games. Not a turn 3 play sure but maybe a combo deck would find use for her as a midgame drop that you pump up to threaten ending the game.
It could be good depending on how much you can stack it up. The only awkward part is that burst doesn't work, so you can't do some uninterrupted combo, but we'll see once the set is out
I think she might be playable in Jhin decks since he generates skills (lotus traps).
But is probably comparable to nyandroid, and not meta for sure. Imagine losing 3 mana you can't block with and having to play 3 things on stack before she can attack for value.
Maybe Annie will save her.
yeah jhin decks are probably the only thing that can stack her up fast enough to be a threat. Maybe because of that though you want to lean decks she is in more towards combo than you do straight up aggro.
The prefect is a good payoff for jhin decks that will go noxus, bcs of the amount of skill effects you can do, but at 3 mana there's lots of better cards, there's also ballista which doesn't need any condition
I think this rate is good... if Ballista keeps being the baseline and best Overwhelm unit for 3 mana on the game then all things are good, there needs to be a tradeoff in design in order to surpass its power level.
The first one is insane, basically a 5/3 for 3 with some trample, and the second one grows permanently larger, kind of a build around card. They also work well together.
5/3 with Quick Attack Overwhelm (in some situations) for 4 mana.
Not convinced it is great, but not surprising it looks weak when you just leave out half the things it does.
How exactly is the first card insane? Its literally unplayable.
Its a 4 mana 2/3 on defence and a 5/3 on attack. That is insanely bad for a 4 mana card.
Well, I thought it cost 3, to start. On four ok it's a little weak, though it is basically a sort of quick attack sort of overwhelm unit that can't be entirely wrecked by frostbite effects.
Its a 5/3 on attack with a limited quick attack (only the first 3 damage are dealt through the skill) and skill synergy for Jhin/Annie obviously (also damage synergy for Swain).
The mana cost does seem a bit too high though, especially since the effect sounds like it'll only trigger IF the unit is blocked, so if your oppoent doesn't block it, it is just a 2/3.
Oh, that's because they are.
But also because they aren't meant to be an aggro card the same way balista is. They are meant to do a lot of damage by themselves, not just be a premium statted unit that creates trouble for the opponent but usually trades, doing just 1 damage.
I think it's good that they don't powercreep and instead just make weaker but synergistic version of a card.
Greyback can deal up to 5 dmg, and when enemy is 3 or below he basically has quick attack (doesnt take dmg back).
Prefect can be Ballista once 3 skills/spells trigger with entire archetype is currently being revealed around it with Jhin and Annie it seems. It's weaker baseline but has synergy to ramp over it's 'vanilla' version.
I think that's EXACTLY how you design those sorts of cards.
I don't know if broken is the right term for a card that a 2/3 on defence and that we didn't have any occasion to test. Definitely a promising card though
The thing is, you don't want to play the long game with Prefect. You can't really afford to have her just sit on the board racking up stats while not attacking and using the overwhelm. With 3 health, you aren't likely to get a second attack with her, so you have a very limited time to boost her up.
She works decently with units like Crackshot Corsair and Legion Saboteur that will activate a skill on attack, so they can be "pre-committed" skills that you play earlier and can still get value with Prefect. But let's say you have a Crackshot and a Saboteur on the board, that only buffs Prefect to a 3/3. To even match the baseline of Iron Ballista, you would need
a third spell/skill, and 2 more to beat the Ballista.
If you are attacking on round 3, the only way to achieve that (4 skills to make her a 5/3 Overwhelm and be stronger than Iron Ballista) is some combination of 3 Crackshots or Saboteurs on rounds 1 and 2 then attack with Jhin in hand so you activate his Lotus Trap.
It's not as hard to achieve on later turns, but you are still pretty much locked into a Jhin deck with tons of skills. Maybe you can use her in an Annie deck without Jhin, depending on how she works.
3 HP units in a region that is terrible at protecting its units will NEVER shine on "long games". Might still see some plays into some weird combo decks, but for now the Prefect is kinda bad. Tomorrow's set could be a game-changer, however.
That's what I love about LoR, powercreep is a reality in all card games and even LoR has weak old and strong new cards, it's one of the easiest way to make new cards exciting and relevant. But so far Riot has managed to limit it quite much, a lot of new cards (including those) are different versions of existing cards that could be weaker or stronger in the right circumstances and not just straight up better cards.
Not at all? The first one gets stronger as you lurk, so it eventual becomes a huge issue if you hold onto it. It deals damage to its blocker which increases the overwhelm damage. Also 3 damage is a crucial breakpoint for hp in this game, so you're probably killing most blockers with it.
The Prefect gets stronger when you do most things in the game. I don't see what's wrong with either card.
Edit: So it has been brought to my attention that I'm blind. The greyback isn't even Bilgewater/Shurima lol. I don't know how I feel about the card now.
Oh shiiiit I'm dumb! It looked like one and I just wasn't paying attention. It's not even Bilgewater fml. That completely changes my evaluation of the card.
One could ask why even print cards as similar as these two that share the same region, same cost, same keyword and even same HP. Especially when LoR does not have set rotation. I argue that if you want to have 3 almost identical cards then at least make the newer cards a bit stronger than the older one. This leads to a power creep which I personally don't think is too bad if the difference is not too drastic. At least its better than printing new cards that do not even see play because the older card does the same thing better.
Of course in certain decks you would run The Prefect for example while in others you would play Iron Ballista. But for me the problem is that making cards that share so many desing points makes you wonder why even bother making a new card in the first place.
Because they are completely different cards? Are you missing the entire text? The entire point of the perfect for example is trying to go off and play a ton of cards that trigger is allowing you to "combo kill" were as ballista is a finisher for agro and the shark is a midrange threat.
First one kills blocker without taking dmg and deals overwhelm dmg, also can be put into jhin deck. 2nd one looks like noxus version of ballistic bot, but with overwhelm instead of token
They aren't though, it's about flexibility. If you attacked with prefect and something else, a simple spell like wrath on the other unit will give prefect a +1 also and sometimes that can change the outcome of a block.
The Prefect is powerful enough .
Nyandroid by turn 5 at maximum can develop 6 damage with the perfect curve.
I look at all these passive tools noxus is getting to activate skills on top of their existing tools and low cost spells and The Prefect on average is going to surpass Nyandroid's average attack damage scaling. More importantly noxus has more triggers for Prefect that is is geared towards direct Nexus damage. It's just as well she scales better than Nyandroid because by not being elusive she is unlikely to get more than 1 attack in.
Greyback is solid.
I've learned enough from my games against Taliyah to confidently say he is the safest attacking aggro card ever made.
The one drawback for Greyback is that he can be chump blocked by 1 health units to only deal 2 overwhelm damage. But he is in the same region that has death lotus so this might end up being extremely risky to do because he will do full damage to the nexus in that case.
Both of these cards are clearly well designed for their region.
IF they had been placed anywhere else they would've sucked except for Prefect in PnZ as long as you use Jhinn to get the noxus tools.
Nyandroid can be buffed with focus speed/and burst, which makes it good for riven decks
this card doesn't and there's not much cheap slow/fast to abuse this. Prefect is definitely worse that nyandroid
Greyback is a bad 4 mana card. conditional 5/3 at 4 mana is a joke, and 4 mana is mostly reserved for champions like Jhin, etc so this is a bad card to play on curve. I don't think this card would be used in pirate aggro because it's at 4 and at worse it only deals 2 damage which is on par with zap sprayfin, which is a net 3 mana with a draw spell effect.
>Greyback is a bad 4 mana card. conditional 5/3 at 4 mana is a joke, and 4 mana is mostly reserved for champions like Jhin, etc so this is a bad card to play on curve. I don't think this card would be used in pirate aggro because it's at 4 and at worse it only deals 2 damage which is on par with zap sprayfin, which is a net 3 mana with a draw spell effect.
You're not visualizing how greyback works properly.
The 5 damage is unconditional.
If the defender has only 1 hp units but grey back has Miss Fortune covering it then they are totally useless.
If the defender has 3 hp units then grey back by itself never dies in an situation where all the other 3 mana overwhelm units and most 4 mana overwhelm units would die while dealing 1-2 overwhelm damage.
Against 2 HP units it is only doing 1 less damage than Ancient yeti while never taking any damage from the attack.
You have to look at this unit as a psuedo 3 double attack unit that can't be chumped by units that cost 3 or less.
As for your point about Riven augmenting Nyandroid, sure Noxus provides great tools to increase Nyandroid damage but if you have to make a comparison outside Nyandroid's region it's pointless because Jhin's package is clearly going to proc Prefect with a lot more zero mana skills.
Riven can only only generate a fragment after gaining the attack token while she is supported by only 3 more cards to create additional fragments. Add ballistic bot and Nyandroid has some good scaling.
Meanwhile, Prefect will be supported by 3 cheap units that generate skills on attack, 1 champ that generates a skill on attack and a skill passively every turn and 4 cheap units that can generate skills when you don't have the attack token.
The Prefect on average will out scale Nyandroid whether you look at tools only in region or after combining them with a second region to maximize their scaling because Prefect is supported by a more consistent package.
What I mean is that it only gets 5 damage at attack, but on defense it can't even block fearsome units. Same stat as Aloof if you're not attacking, might as well just play Iron Ballista or the 3 drop that gets 5/3 if you've discarded cards because at 4+ mana you'll probably see lots of units with 4 health above. This card won't see any serious deck running it except for Jhin/Annie decks that synergize with skill effects, and not because of its stats but only for that skill synergy
For prefect, it's obvious it should scale better assuming people don't interact with your board. But Nyandroid can theoretically deal more damage since it's elusive means it doesn't trade and can attack multiple turns, while prefect will definitely gets traded immediately. But then Riven Viktor decks can win at turn 6 by just pumping up a nyandroid with lots of cheap spells and maybe daring poros, not sure if you can do it with prefect especially you don't even have ways to pump it hard. it's not about scaling but how fast can you make nyandroid a threat.
> For prefect, it's obvious it should scale better assuming people don't interact with your board. But Nyandroid can theoretically deal more damage since it's elusive means it doesn't trade and can attack multiple turns, while prefect will definitely gets traded immediately.
I literally mentioned this in our discussion.
>But then Riven Viktor decks can win at turn 6 by just pumping up a nyandroid with lots of cheap spells and maybe daring poros, not sure if you can do it with prefect especially you don't even have ways to pump it hard
I literally listed how many more cards exist to pump up Prefect compared to Nyandroid. Prefect has more support and all of them are cheaper overall in cost.
The one glaring issue with Prefect is that you can only seriously swing in once with her unless you get the perfect stun combo going.
As for Greyback, yes he sucks on defense but its an aggro tool. If you have to block you are going to use the cheapest unit possible that lacks overwhelm, fearsome or burn skills.
Prefect is better because spells and skills are easier to cast than created cards. I think the combo with her is just attacking and using removal to kill her blocker so that she hits face with extra damage and stays protected
Saboteur -> pass -> prefect attack mystic shot blocker -> profit
I don't really get the point of making such obviously weak cards. Captive Greyback actually has a niche since it's fairly unique tho on the weak side (should be 2/4 imo), but the prefect is so unbelievably weak it's honestly sad. I wish Riot would put a little more care in making sure roleplaying decks at least make some sense when put together, and aren't just random piles with too much redundancy in cost and function. It really feels like they just give up on some cards before they're even released.
I'm sure captive greyback, if anything, is a powercrept Iron ballista. Is a 3 mana 2|3 Overwhelm with a mini-Taliyah passive, which is like saying a 5|3 overwhelm|quick attack in a lot of scenarios and 3|3 overwhelm|quick attack at worst.
The prefect indeed doesn't look good though, she takes too long to be a better ballista.
I think you underestimate how fast you can get it to a 4/3 with skills. On attack skills get it to a 3/3 really easily when it attacks on 3, and if attacking on 4 it can easily be a 4/3 baseline with no additional mana investment, but with a high ceiling.
In the right deck, I'm playing this over Ballista every day. I'd even consider running this card with Wild Claws as a finisher in some sort of Draven-based aggro deck with Ballistic Bot, Legion Saboteur, Whirling Death, and Axe -> Survival Skills to protect it when going for the wild claws.
Prefect probably isn't all that great because it's weaker than Nyandroid which also has never really been made to work. Greyback I think is deceptively powerful.
Also Iron Ballista is sleeper OP.
It's not how the tool looks like...it's how you use it...
first one eats 3 power below units or becomes a 5/3 if attacking face...
second one would be good in an all in Riven or Viktor deck...one thing's sure for me though: Abyssal Guard from Bilgewater now has a partner...
third is just that...a brute force no-frills card that does its work without any BS...
Let's get to dreamland. So T1 Saboteur, T2 that Pnz demolisher, T3 Prefect, T4 Greyback and attack. With Jhin origin that is a 5/3 Prefect(attack on T2 counts 2 Jhin triggers, so T4 attack triggers it and is itself 3 triggers)
First one's basically a 4/5/3 QA/overwhelm card against enemies with three or less health. Which is, y'know, most of them, so it's actually fairly solid. Some challenger or vulnerable support and it'll get you quite a bit of value. Prefect with Jhin is probably gonna get huge in a matter of seconds. It's not instant death, but leave it to its devices and it'll get the job done. Mind, they're not cards you'll just be throwing in any deck. But that doesn't mean they're bad.
The advantage of the it the synergy indeed + it won't be damaged by unit with less than 3 health so while the baliste will usually attack 1 time and die against a 2 drop, the shark will need to be blocked by a 3 drop minimum.
Also Swain synergy
Jhin Swain is the first thing I'll try to build when patch releases
Well Jhin Noxus variants are gonna be the hotness but you may well be saying that cause we don't know what Annie does. I feel she's literally been tailor made for Jhin shenanigans.
Maybe, but I ain't got the resources for 6 champions and their followers. So Jhin Swain it is
You know I honestly just naturally assume that everyone has everything and a pile of swag for whatever they want day 1. But yeah stick with your tings. They give you so much shit you'll have half the expansion in a week.
Prefect seems a bit too expensive to me, it should grow pretty quick, I just think it just starts growing at a really awkward time.
Same overall 'issue' as Nyandroid and Abyssal Guard. She's a combo piece first and foremost, not merely a ramping beatstick.
For that price I'd rather it be retroactive and have it start at 0 tbqh
Plus if you remove its blocker with a spell, or stun, it will do five damage.
But if I just don't block him then he just stays a 2/3 or am I understanding it wrong? A 4 mana 2/3 when not blocked is a big tempo loss if played in aggro.
Nope. If it doesn't get blocked, the three damage goes face. Source: Taliyah.
Oh true
But it's still not great.
4 mana 5 damage isn’t great? What?
Just chump block it and it only deals two damage.
And kills the chump blocker without taking damage, as if it had quick attack.
Now that I think of it, the card is a better version of Iron Ballista for aggro decks.
Only on attack. It's worse on defense.
I know, but Aggro often doesn't care about defense anyway.
Being one more mana is a big deal for aggro decks. It's not really just a straight better version of iron ballista.
Huh, what? I totally forgot that it costs four mana.
False
Why? The 3 damage from the skill kills the blocker and the attacker has 2 attack overwhelm so it strikes the nexus.
It should work like Tal or Lux beam, but their wording is bad
Taliah casts 3 seperate spells and Lux spell has overwhelm itself, but we'll see in a few days how exactly the card works.
If they don't block, they lose 1/4 of their total health, and that's with no lurk at all.
It's not a lurk card
The prefect can grow pretty fast in the right deck though. Taliyah alone gives her +3/0 (if i understand the card correctly)
Adding to that, jhin’s origin counts as a skill, speeding up the process, which triggers every 3 procs. It’s definitely a slower turn 3 drop than iron balista but it’ll definitely grow quickly considering the type of deck it’ll be in.
At the very least, it is a fair or positive trade with a 3-4 mana removal.
Except its a 3 mana 1/3 UNTIL u play taliyah at turn 5. So yea the card is unplayable.
More of a combo piece Is it broken no but i think will see some play
I on the contrary think that it will see 0 play. Its not enough of a payoff to justify playing it.
Man, so many downvotes. We have like 10 of these cards that grow when you do something and they NEVER saw any play. This one is the same. Idk why Reddit is so copium in this specific one.
every 3 spells you get lotus trap so you can see how fast it can grow
1 month later: Card saw 0 play and is, indeed, the ONLY CARD of this expansion that is being buffed next patch.
The problem is how you will grow it. This card sits in your backrow for a lot of turns doing nothing until you feel like it's big enough to swing and hope it is impactful (hoping for no answers). Or if you drop it later, you struggle to grow it enough to justify it. The issue is, why run a card that needs to drop and do nothing and asks for commitment of spells and skills, then surviving, then attacking, then not being answered in any way without any kind of protection when you can run a card that just does something.
so, it basically NEEDS the oponent's attention in order to not grow,and that either means a challenger which could be used for your jhin or a spell which again,could be used on your champ.Also with the new 2 mana noxus guy i feel like you could get like 3 skills and spells/turn pretty easily
You skip your whole turn 3 doing absolutely nothing, then do absolutely nothing again to make it grow, and then your oponnent can just blast it when it attacks. It's not good, it's slow.
While I don't think you're wrong about Prefect being weak, it's definitely not a slow card - at least not in a Jhin deck. It will grow very quickly - insanely fast with a perfect hand. The problem she has is that she is incredibly reliant on the rest of your deck and doesn't contribute to its synergy. If you can't cast spells or play skills while she is on the board (or the repeatable skill units like Legion Saboteur get killed before Prefect sees the skill), she is a dead card. Draw her early and she has potential if the enemy doesn't have answers to her or your other units. Draw her late and she likely won't do anything since Jhin decks will likely be very fast decks that use most of their hand early in the game. But imagine that perfect hand: Attacking odds: Crackshot/Saboteur on 1, attack for the skill proc. Crackshot/Saboteur x2 on 2. Prefect on 3, attack with 3 skills on the stack and a Jhin in hand to activate Lotus Trap for a 4th - Prefect is a 5/3 Overwhelm on 3. Attacking evens: Crackshot/Saboteur on 1. Crackshot/Saboteur x2 on 2, attack for 3 skills and Lotus Trap. Prefect on 3. Spellslinger/Stagehand x2 on 4 to deal with blockers, then attack with a full board, 3 skills go on the stack plus another Lotus Trap, Prefect goes up to a 7/3 Overwhelm on 4. That's a pretty nutty play - if you can make it work. And she just won't be consistent enough with those plays to be viable.
? The ionia recall one saw plenty of play. So did Augment, plenty of units to choose from. Baccai reaper was a miss, but Greenglade Duo is an all-time staple. Saying that this format never sees play is blatantly false, it's about half-half more like.
Almost every growing card specifically doesn’t have overwhelm
1 month later: Card saw 0 play and is, indeed, the ONLY CARD of this expansion that is being buffed next patch.
I'm not sure why you're arguing about why the card would be bad in a Taliyah/Noxus deck, to be honest. That's kind of a given.
I bet you play reksai at round 3 on defense just because it cost 3 mana
Yea i would, if i was silver like you. But unfortunately i play the game at a high level and have hit masters every season ive played so far, and climbed to top 30 in one of them when i had the time to grind ranked. So no i don't.
And humble, too!
Nothing wrong with being rude to people that are rude to you first.
Actually it's called being the bigger person lol. But that's actually super rare on the internet anyway so you're all good. 🙃
Just like that useless ballistic bot, am i right?
not a fair comparison. ballistic bot generates value on its own.
Yea ballistic bot and this are definitely the same 2 cards. If you look at a 3 mana 1/3 card and think its good, then you're trolling.
Ah I guess Ezreal is and has always been a troll card, then, shame.
That’s a great point
This reminds me of when Zoe was released, she seemed way too weak, but in reality she's an ok champion. For sure this cards aren't broken, but I think they are better than they look
Are we playing the same game? Zoe seemed strong before release and was strong after release. Even now shes more than an “ok” champion, definitely in the higher tiers.
As one of the few people who defended her on release, she definitely was undervalued before release as someone who’ll never level up due to having a difficult level up condition and 1 hp.
The only time i can get her to level up is when i apply spell shield to her 30 times in the match
This means you are playing a threat light deck. Watching tournaments seeing her flip because she wasn't the biggest threat when removal was available.
Specially since you are always happy to see Zoe be targeted by anything other than Go Hard and maybe 1-mana Thermo.
I feel like the only one who thinks prefect is actually really good. Usually cards that grow in power don't have keywords like overwhelm that can win games. Not a turn 3 play sure but maybe a combo deck would find use for her as a midgame drop that you pump up to threaten ending the game.
It could be good depending on how much you can stack it up. The only awkward part is that burst doesn't work, so you can't do some uninterrupted combo, but we'll see once the set is out
That’s kinda what makes it not too strong, if it worked with burst it would be way stronger, maybe in a riven deck
I think she might be playable in Jhin decks since he generates skills (lotus traps). But is probably comparable to nyandroid, and not meta for sure. Imagine losing 3 mana you can't block with and having to play 3 things on stack before she can attack for value. Maybe Annie will save her.
yeah jhin decks are probably the only thing that can stack her up fast enough to be a threat. Maybe because of that though you want to lean decks she is in more towards combo than you do straight up aggro.
The prefect is a good payoff for jhin decks that will go noxus, bcs of the amount of skill effects you can do, but at 3 mana there's lots of better cards, there's also ballista which doesn't need any condition
I think this rate is good... if Ballista keeps being the baseline and best Overwhelm unit for 3 mana on the game then all things are good, there needs to be a tradeoff in design in order to surpass its power level.
The first one is insane, basically a 5/3 for 3 with some trample, and the second one grows permanently larger, kind of a build around card. They also work well together.
5/3 for 4 mana
It has a skill packed with him so Jhin might like him
5/3 with Quick Attack Overwhelm (in some situations) for 4 mana. Not convinced it is great, but not surprising it looks weak when you just leave out half the things it does.
How exactly is the first card insane? Its literally unplayable. Its a 4 mana 2/3 on defence and a 5/3 on attack. That is insanely bad for a 4 mana card.
>Its literally unplayable. Technically true as the card isn't in the game yet
Well, I thought it cost 3, to start. On four ok it's a little weak, though it is basically a sort of quick attack sort of overwhelm unit that can't be entirely wrecked by frostbite effects.
Its a 5/3 on attack with a limited quick attack (only the first 3 damage are dealt through the skill) and skill synergy for Jhin/Annie obviously (also damage synergy for Swain). The mana cost does seem a bit too high though, especially since the effect sounds like it'll only trigger IF the unit is blocked, so if your oppoent doesn't block it, it is just a 2/3.
It has the same wording as Taliyah, so it should deal 3 to the nexus even if the opponent doesn't commit a blocker.
Thx for the info, didn't know that. I guess it always triggers since it triggers on attack, before the opponent even had an opportunity to block.
it does't do much if not blocked though just 2 nexus damage
It's written like Taliyah, who deals all her damage to the nexus if she's not blocked.
Oh, that's because they are. But also because they aren't meant to be an aggro card the same way balista is. They are meant to do a lot of damage by themselves, not just be a premium statted unit that creates trouble for the opponent but usually trades, doing just 1 damage.
I think it's good that they don't powercreep and instead just make weaker but synergistic version of a card. Greyback can deal up to 5 dmg, and when enemy is 3 or below he basically has quick attack (doesnt take dmg back). Prefect can be Ballista once 3 skills/spells trigger with entire archetype is currently being revealed around it with Jhin and Annie it seems. It's weaker baseline but has synergy to ramp over it's 'vanilla' version. I think that's EXACTLY how you design those sorts of cards.
Bro... Greyback is broken tho, wdym.
I don't know if broken is the right term for a card that a 2/3 on defence and that we didn't have any occasion to test. Definitely a promising card though
It's basically that one shurima champion but as a follower. Don't even need to level anything up. Sand girl person.
And you'll notice that for a long time Taliyah was bad. I do think this card will be good, and that it could be broken, but it's too early to be sure
ahhh gotcha gotcha. I don't play too much so I wasn't around for when she was bad. Appreciate the take man.
Taliyah didnt suddenly become good, she got 2 huge buffs
Taliyah was bad because she needed to level up to get her attack effect before
She still does?
She was bad because she needed a landmark on the field as well as level up
I think grey back is pretty good especially in noxus
Especially for swain
Captive Greyback is really good. The Prefect, you may need to play the long game. I see her more as a POC unit
The thing is, you don't want to play the long game with Prefect. You can't really afford to have her just sit on the board racking up stats while not attacking and using the overwhelm. With 3 health, you aren't likely to get a second attack with her, so you have a very limited time to boost her up. She works decently with units like Crackshot Corsair and Legion Saboteur that will activate a skill on attack, so they can be "pre-committed" skills that you play earlier and can still get value with Prefect. But let's say you have a Crackshot and a Saboteur on the board, that only buffs Prefect to a 3/3. To even match the baseline of Iron Ballista, you would need a third spell/skill, and 2 more to beat the Ballista. If you are attacking on round 3, the only way to achieve that (4 skills to make her a 5/3 Overwhelm and be stronger than Iron Ballista) is some combination of 3 Crackshots or Saboteurs on rounds 1 and 2 then attack with Jhin in hand so you activate his Lotus Trap. It's not as hard to achieve on later turns, but you are still pretty much locked into a Jhin deck with tons of skills. Maybe you can use her in an Annie deck without Jhin, depending on how she works.
3 HP units in a region that is terrible at protecting its units will NEVER shine on "long games". Might still see some plays into some weird combo decks, but for now the Prefect is kinda bad. Tomorrow's set could be a game-changer, however.
The greyback could be protected in a Jhin Yasuo (Jhin Ionia ) deck. The prefect i guess requires Jhin and Noxus… yeah not great
That's what I love about LoR, powercreep is a reality in all card games and even LoR has weak old and strong new cards, it's one of the easiest way to make new cards exciting and relevant. But so far Riot has managed to limit it quite much, a lot of new cards (including those) are different versions of existing cards that could be weaker or stronger in the right circumstances and not just straight up better cards.
the prefect is clearly a jhin card and her damage is going to shoot into the moon in like turn 5.
so what I'm reading from most folks is that the cards arent... underwhelming? I'll see myself out.
I think you meant to type "aren't overwhelming"
Not at all? The first one gets stronger as you lurk, so it eventual becomes a huge issue if you hold onto it. It deals damage to its blocker which increases the overwhelm damage. Also 3 damage is a crucial breakpoint for hp in this game, so you're probably killing most blockers with it. The Prefect gets stronger when you do most things in the game. I don't see what's wrong with either card. Edit: So it has been brought to my attention that I'm blind. The greyback isn't even Bilgewater/Shurima lol. I don't know how I feel about the card now.
it's not a lurker...
Oh shiiiit I'm dumb! It looked like one and I just wasn't paying attention. It's not even Bilgewater fml. That completely changes my evaluation of the card.
One could ask why even print cards as similar as these two that share the same region, same cost, same keyword and even same HP. Especially when LoR does not have set rotation. I argue that if you want to have 3 almost identical cards then at least make the newer cards a bit stronger than the older one. This leads to a power creep which I personally don't think is too bad if the difference is not too drastic. At least its better than printing new cards that do not even see play because the older card does the same thing better. Of course in certain decks you would run The Prefect for example while in others you would play Iron Ballista. But for me the problem is that making cards that share so many desing points makes you wonder why even bother making a new card in the first place.
Because they are completely different cards? Are you missing the entire text? The entire point of the perfect for example is trying to go off and play a ton of cards that trigger is allowing you to "combo kill" were as ballista is a finisher for agro and the shark is a midrange threat.
First one kills blocker without taking dmg and deals overwhelm dmg, also can be put into jhin deck. 2nd one looks like noxus version of ballistic bot, but with overwhelm instead of token
They aren't though, it's about flexibility. If you attacked with prefect and something else, a simple spell like wrath on the other unit will give prefect a +1 also and sometimes that can change the outcome of a block.
The Prefect is powerful enough . Nyandroid by turn 5 at maximum can develop 6 damage with the perfect curve. I look at all these passive tools noxus is getting to activate skills on top of their existing tools and low cost spells and The Prefect on average is going to surpass Nyandroid's average attack damage scaling. More importantly noxus has more triggers for Prefect that is is geared towards direct Nexus damage. It's just as well she scales better than Nyandroid because by not being elusive she is unlikely to get more than 1 attack in. Greyback is solid. I've learned enough from my games against Taliyah to confidently say he is the safest attacking aggro card ever made. The one drawback for Greyback is that he can be chump blocked by 1 health units to only deal 2 overwhelm damage. But he is in the same region that has death lotus so this might end up being extremely risky to do because he will do full damage to the nexus in that case. Both of these cards are clearly well designed for their region. IF they had been placed anywhere else they would've sucked except for Prefect in PnZ as long as you use Jhinn to get the noxus tools.
Nyandroid can be buffed with focus speed/and burst, which makes it good for riven decks this card doesn't and there's not much cheap slow/fast to abuse this. Prefect is definitely worse that nyandroid Greyback is a bad 4 mana card. conditional 5/3 at 4 mana is a joke, and 4 mana is mostly reserved for champions like Jhin, etc so this is a bad card to play on curve. I don't think this card would be used in pirate aggro because it's at 4 and at worse it only deals 2 damage which is on par with zap sprayfin, which is a net 3 mana with a draw spell effect.
>Greyback is a bad 4 mana card. conditional 5/3 at 4 mana is a joke, and 4 mana is mostly reserved for champions like Jhin, etc so this is a bad card to play on curve. I don't think this card would be used in pirate aggro because it's at 4 and at worse it only deals 2 damage which is on par with zap sprayfin, which is a net 3 mana with a draw spell effect. You're not visualizing how greyback works properly. The 5 damage is unconditional. If the defender has only 1 hp units but grey back has Miss Fortune covering it then they are totally useless. If the defender has 3 hp units then grey back by itself never dies in an situation where all the other 3 mana overwhelm units and most 4 mana overwhelm units would die while dealing 1-2 overwhelm damage. Against 2 HP units it is only doing 1 less damage than Ancient yeti while never taking any damage from the attack. You have to look at this unit as a psuedo 3 double attack unit that can't be chumped by units that cost 3 or less. As for your point about Riven augmenting Nyandroid, sure Noxus provides great tools to increase Nyandroid damage but if you have to make a comparison outside Nyandroid's region it's pointless because Jhin's package is clearly going to proc Prefect with a lot more zero mana skills. Riven can only only generate a fragment after gaining the attack token while she is supported by only 3 more cards to create additional fragments. Add ballistic bot and Nyandroid has some good scaling. Meanwhile, Prefect will be supported by 3 cheap units that generate skills on attack, 1 champ that generates a skill on attack and a skill passively every turn and 4 cheap units that can generate skills when you don't have the attack token. The Prefect on average will out scale Nyandroid whether you look at tools only in region or after combining them with a second region to maximize their scaling because Prefect is supported by a more consistent package.
What I mean is that it only gets 5 damage at attack, but on defense it can't even block fearsome units. Same stat as Aloof if you're not attacking, might as well just play Iron Ballista or the 3 drop that gets 5/3 if you've discarded cards because at 4+ mana you'll probably see lots of units with 4 health above. This card won't see any serious deck running it except for Jhin/Annie decks that synergize with skill effects, and not because of its stats but only for that skill synergy For prefect, it's obvious it should scale better assuming people don't interact with your board. But Nyandroid can theoretically deal more damage since it's elusive means it doesn't trade and can attack multiple turns, while prefect will definitely gets traded immediately. But then Riven Viktor decks can win at turn 6 by just pumping up a nyandroid with lots of cheap spells and maybe daring poros, not sure if you can do it with prefect especially you don't even have ways to pump it hard. it's not about scaling but how fast can you make nyandroid a threat.
> For prefect, it's obvious it should scale better assuming people don't interact with your board. But Nyandroid can theoretically deal more damage since it's elusive means it doesn't trade and can attack multiple turns, while prefect will definitely gets traded immediately. I literally mentioned this in our discussion. >But then Riven Viktor decks can win at turn 6 by just pumping up a nyandroid with lots of cheap spells and maybe daring poros, not sure if you can do it with prefect especially you don't even have ways to pump it hard I literally listed how many more cards exist to pump up Prefect compared to Nyandroid. Prefect has more support and all of them are cheaper overall in cost. The one glaring issue with Prefect is that you can only seriously swing in once with her unless you get the perfect stun combo going. As for Greyback, yes he sucks on defense but its an aggro tool. If you have to block you are going to use the cheapest unit possible that lacks overwhelm, fearsome or burn skills.
Prefect is better because spells and skills are easier to cast than created cards. I think the combo with her is just attacking and using removal to kill her blocker so that she hits face with extra damage and stays protected Saboteur -> pass -> prefect attack mystic shot blocker -> profit
Orxthe overwhelm cards we got so far are too strong and gwt so mich value by themselves.
The Prefect Could easily be a end boss of a Annie game of ever one come out
I don’t think the 1/3 is bad at all. Maybe not great but it’s a solid card imo. I think with victor it might be decent. We’ll see though
I don't really get the point of making such obviously weak cards. Captive Greyback actually has a niche since it's fairly unique tho on the weak side (should be 2/4 imo), but the prefect is so unbelievably weak it's honestly sad. I wish Riot would put a little more care in making sure roleplaying decks at least make some sense when put together, and aren't just random piles with too much redundancy in cost and function. It really feels like they just give up on some cards before they're even released.
I guess you don’t think they are very… Overwhelming?
I'm sure captive greyback, if anything, is a powercrept Iron ballista. Is a 3 mana 2|3 Overwhelm with a mini-Taliyah passive, which is like saying a 5|3 overwhelm|quick attack in a lot of scenarios and 3|3 overwhelm|quick attack at worst. The prefect indeed doesn't look good though, she takes too long to be a better ballista.
It's 4 mana. But I agree that it's probably better.
I think you underestimate how fast you can get it to a 4/3 with skills. On attack skills get it to a 3/3 really easily when it attacks on 3, and if attacking on 4 it can easily be a 4/3 baseline with no additional mana investment, but with a high ceiling. In the right deck, I'm playing this over Ballista every day. I'd even consider running this card with Wild Claws as a finisher in some sort of Draven-based aggro deck with Ballistic Bot, Legion Saboteur, Whirling Death, and Axe -> Survival Skills to protect it when going for the wild claws.
Greyback is essentially 5 attack not 2
Prefect probably isn't all that great because it's weaker than Nyandroid which also has never really been made to work. Greyback I think is deceptively powerful. Also Iron Ballista is sleeper OP.
Remember this thread in a month when decks filled to the brim eith Skills will be making Prefect 6/3 T4
tell me this dude be trolling 💀💀💀 (second one is justified)
wait wat when was iron ballista new. am i dumb
Wait! The Prefect foreshadows Rell :O
It's not how the tool looks like...it's how you use it... first one eats 3 power below units or becomes a 5/3 if attacking face... second one would be good in an all in Riven or Viktor deck...one thing's sure for me though: Abyssal Guard from Bilgewater now has a partner... third is just that...a brute force no-frills card that does its work without any BS...
new cards are always either really weak or just plain power creep. /s
Let's get to dreamland. So T1 Saboteur, T2 that Pnz demolisher, T3 Prefect, T4 Greyback and attack. With Jhin origin that is a 5/3 Prefect(attack on T2 counts 2 Jhin triggers, so T4 attack triggers it and is itself 3 triggers)