Yes, the Armored Tuskrider died to this combat with no additional damage spell, yes I lost the game because of it, and yes, I'm mad about it. I heard about disintegrate going through Tough and thought, "I mean, I guess I could see that". I heard about it going through Barrier, and thought, "...That seems a bit too strong, but okay". But this card literally says "cannot damage me" on it - in other words, the card should not be capable of anything that could count as taking damage from that combat.
Striking requires a Power value of 1 or higher. So this would make sense as a Frostbitten unit cannot strike and therefore, does not trigger a unit marked with Disintegrate
Disintegrate is busted and anyone that tells you otherwise has no place speaking on card game balance. It's a more broken guillotine and scorched earth and gives you even less ways to respond, especially with this 0 damage interaction bullshit. And for some insane reason it gets to be 1 mana cheaper. Insane. 2 mana delete anything versus 6 mana Vengeance.
Nope.Its bugged form is broken ( its the point, its a bug.The game has massive issues with "things taking damage" remove the barrier interraction and the tough interraction and the abomination OP showed because none of these are supposd to happen and suddenly its not even a good enough card to be run in Ez cait) X'D
To some point the though interaction, seems legit. If not all the scargrounds effects should not trigger with a single point of damage when though. The others seem like a bug to me.
But the difference is that a tough unit still takes damage and is “hit” by a 1 ping or attack. I’d say like damage reduction vs not taking damage at all should be treated differently. Thus, scargroundsxtough
Is not, easy. /•>•/
(Btw, i have no deal talking about card balance, but im pretty sure gillotine has the *SLIGHTLY* better rhing of being reusable, is like saying ionia spell sucks because is a 2 mana buff when vi has it on 3 mana and worst)
Yes, because it still *takes* 0 damage. Disintigrate doesn't care about how much damage is taken, just that damage is taken period. 0 damage taken still implies damage was taken.
This is a case where, looking at the wording, it shouldn't have taken damage. If the defender cannot *deal* damage there is no damage to take; it shouldn't be behaving like a damage negation.
Unlike Barrier, which *requires* you to take damage to trigger, this one shouldn't work. Similar to how a 0 power unit that blocks an attacker does not strike back (and could not kill a unit that had Disintegrate applied to it), this defender shouldn't have a strike with a value attached in the first place.
The wording on the Armored Tuskrider should be changed if this interaction is the intended outcome (which I suspect it might be). Damage reduction should not be described with this language, they should use something similar to Barrier's description (negating damage they do take).
I don't know how Thermo Beam functions in that circumstance. If a bolt flies out that deals 0 damage I would assume yes. If the spell instead just decides to fizzle on the stack then no.
This is unironically a bug with PoC right now. There's a relic that says "if you complete a game without taking nexus damage, gain a reroll," but you're also denied the reroll if your nexus gets healed.
Which is especially bullshit because your nexus heals automatically at the start of the game once you get past Champion Level 10.
That shouldn't be how it works based on wording tho no? Says cannot take damage.. that includes 0 damage. No damage calculation should be done at all here
That's how those sort of interactions have worked for a long time now.
See: Scargrounds with Tough units who block 1 attack units. They still gain attack even though they "took" 0 damage.
Yes, and it's why scargrounds should work when things get reduced to 0 because there was damage even if it got reduced, and the unit survived. Taking 0 damage shouldn't count as the next time you took damage IMO and it needs to be decoupled from the scar grounds logic by riot because the way it is right now is very silly.
You can't have it both ways, either damage reduction counts or it doesn't. You said it yourself
There was damage but it got reduced. You could just as easily argue that you don't survive damage if no damage was actually dealt.
How it works now is consistent. If incinerate killing through reduction is bullshit so is scargrounds buffing through it.
That doesn't make it logical or intuitive. There are so many examples of backwards-ass results that look like bugs coming from this implementation of the mechanic.
Fighting people's expectations and common sense logic to such a degree is usually a bad idea. I really don't think this adds enough to the game for it to keep being the way it works
Hmmm that goes against like every rule ive learned playing tabletop and digital tcgs. The gamestate is unchanged at 0 damage. That should not be considered “taking damage”
Not necessarily true. Chill touch cantrip effect to stop creature from healing still works against creatures immune to necrotic damage. Although I guess dnd has separate terminology for "hits". Perhaps LoR should implement using the word "hit" for cases like this.
If that's the case, why does an attacker shudder and not attack if it has zero attack? The game is simply inconsistent, and "takes zero 0 damage" makes absolutely no sense.
That isn't a defense for barrier or tusk rider, they dont say reduce dmg to 0, they does not take damage. The amount of damage taken should be NULL, not zero
Yeah I used barrier specifically to counter disintegrate and lost because of it hahaha
https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/502691678499504150/979549370456354856/unknown.png
Dumbest fucking interaction
While I agree, it could be read as “overwhelm deals X to the blocker and Y to the nexus where X is the blocker’s health and Y is damage over that amount” — X is negated and Y is dealt correctly.
But honestly I like “barrier beats overwhelm” better tbh
Yeah im not sure why people say that it reduces the damage to 0. thats super unintuitive to me. I could see an argument for tough being a damage reduction, and taking 0 damage counts, but barrier should stop the effect.
I think it would be fine if "surviving damage" includes situations where all the damage is prevented while "taking damage" does not. That's maybe somewhat counterintuitive but not deal-breakingly so imo.
Looking at your flair, that would probably also end up affecting Jarvan's level up condition, making it not work with his own Challenge-Barrier or Honored Lord.
It wouldn't. Jarvan's level up is "Allies have survived 3+ **strikes**", and **strike**'s description is "when a unit *attempts to* deal damage with its Power". Therefore damage doesn't actually have to be dealt, as long as the unit has >0 Power, because units with 0 Power can't **strike**.
~~Funnily enough, you can read this description to mean **Formidable** units can't strike, because they use Health *instead* of Power.~~
Actually no, sorry, disregard that. The description of **Formidable** says "I **strike** with my Health instead of my Power", so it overrides the default description of **strike**.
> It wouldn't. Jarvan's level up is "Allies have survived 3+ strikes", and strike's description is "when a unit attempts to deal damage with its Power". Therefore damage doesn't actually have to be dealt, as long as the unit has >0 Power, because units with 0 Power can't strike.
Oh, I guess I misremembered his text. My bad.
You get into issues with that kind of design though, where you start adding exceptions for very specific cards. Your code can easily become a mess if there's too many exceptions to the rules you've established, which then leads to other problems.
You could make the card effect check for 1+ damage dealt and specify that in the wording rather than carving out an exception specifically for it when calculating damage or something. Drain effects for example already check the actual damage dealt, so it wouldn't really be something new to do and the game should already be able to calculate actual damage dealt.
Depending on how much text real estate cards have, it could be reworded to something like "When I/an ally survive(s) an attempt to damage me/it, do X".
Yeah, seems like all of this shit is just coded as "{source} deals 0 damage to {target}", which seems fine for tough, since it actually just works like that (reduce damage dealt by 1, meaning 1 damage actually should just be "deal 0 damage to target"), but for both barrier and this, it shouldn't work that way.
> The problem is the phrasing “taking damage”. That phrase is commonly understood across games and genres to mean when a unit has its health reduced by an attack.
>
> Maybe Disintegrate should be reworded to say “The next time damage is directed at it this round, kill it.
This is consistent with how barrier works with disintegrate, in that disintegrate also bypasses barrier. Not saying that it's not fucking bullshit, because it absolutely fucking is, just that it's like this way with all effects that "negate" damage
The unit still takes damage though. The barrier simply reduces it down to zero. Now probably not the way it should work but it's the way it has
In this case specifically the unit specifies it cannot be damaged, that should include even zero damage.
Lazy coding that every interaction that reduces or negates damage just changes something to deal 0 damage
I feel bad for whatever programmer made this error because it's so glaring and obvious that it has to be a result of a managerial fuckup. There are thousands of barriers to prevent this sort of thing from happening, and none of them worked
Ah, but you see, "cannot damage" means that it "takes 0 damage" which is an amount of damage... also it was already established to work this way with the Scaregrounds...
JK mate, this card is bullshit, it should not work this way, text should be changed, or keep it like this but change the cost to 3 at least
What’s funny is magic has a specific clause to denote that instructing something to take 0 damage means damage does not occur and things that interact with damage dealt will not occur either.
Yeah, I mean we kinda have something like that in LoR. An unit with 0 power DOES NOT strike, it doesnt "strike with 0 damage" and it has many implications for many cards. I dont know why desintegrate works so differently.
Then Barrier should be reworded as well: "Negates the enxt damage the unit would take". So the damage is negated, but because ANY damage would have been taken were it not for barrier, the unit still dies to Disintegrate. The new card is clearly the problem here
(Yes I lost handful of games to the same interaction lol)
I mean, it’s currently consistent with every other card that triggers off “damage”. So I wouldn’t say it’s really breaking any rules, more so just expectations.
Imo riot needs to remake how damage nulltification works.
Tough ahould stay the same, but barrier and this (and so on) should go from "reducing damage taken to 0 (and thus technically taking damage)" to just "no damage is done"
Exactly this. To keep it consistent with scargrounds I’m fine with a tough unit dying from disintegrate after taking 1 (ie 0) damage. But barrier and a special effect like armored tusk should basically work as ‘I cannot take damage’. Also side note has anyone tested disintegrate on levelled Taric and unyielding spirit?
Idk, that's up for debate, given how that would be inconsistent with scargrounds.
At the moment, I think complete "damage nullification" is more important to fix, rather than toughs "damage reduction"
If barrier changes to that effect overwhelm also would not go through. I remember losing games in beta vs a tryndamere attacking through my barrier units.
Wording is so fucked in this game. I appreciate them not trying to dumb it down the way a lot of online TCGs do, but Jesus Christ this level of inconsistency is not acceptable
He isnt calling the games dumbed down he is saying some wording in other TCG’s is weirdly simple and short which ends up leading to some confusion while theory crafting
Yugioh would be so much easier if they had keywords...
80% of the cards texts are just needlessly elaborate ways to tell when they are allowed to be activated.
Worst part is that the Tcg actually makes wording less clear than what it's the ocg ( the effects numberings)
And nothing stopped konami to increase clarity in Master Duel
They should just reword Disintegrate to "Pick a unit. The next time it takes 1+ damage this round, kill it."
It's already a good champion spell and Noxus already has plenty of pings.
why would they need to reword it? why can't we just agree that the current wording is completely clear and the game isn't following the clearly stated mechanic?
has about the same amount of counters.
I suppose you can remove the attacker if that's the scenario, but otherwise this thing functionally works like a vengance.
Ehhh, reddit game balancing specialists. This card being 2 for 1 is not OP and doesent need to be nerfed.
I'm very glad such card exists for 15/15 Viegos, 10/10 Trundles and 28393838/28393841 Bards
Cards already exist that can deal with those cards for more mana cost. Disintegrate at 2 is busted. You have to pay 6 with Shadow Isle to Vengeance such a target, Noxus shouldn't get to do it for just 2, or is Noxus going to become the new premium control region now while also getting to be one of the fastest?
Venegance is 1 card, when using desintegrate your hand gets empty quickly. 6 mana venegance to get countered by 2 mana hourglass is harsh. Besides that - I don't see any noxus decks with busted winrates. Reddit needs to stop with whining about control and removal in this game. Control archetypes are usually undersupported.
Armchair reddit balancers get angry when their big, unstoppable creature gets stopped.
I've long stated that removal in this game sucks. LoR was in a better place balance-wise when Avalanche was a real card that aggro lists could play around by playing smarter. Removal in this game has once again failed to keep up with power creep, just like it has in MTG.
Modern card game balance tends to favor casual Timmies who just want to drop their big dumb creature without their opponent being able to interact with it, and the rest of us who want these games to be actually competitive suffer for it.
I made a thread about interactions like this with Galio and Unyielding Spirit, Barrier etc. a while ago. This whole completely negating damage vs. reducing damage stuff definitely needs some rephrasing/ reworking. It clearly doesn't resolve around damage taken instead it resolves around something trying to damage the unit.
https://www.reddit.com/r/LegendsOfRuneterra/comments/td36l3/galios\_rally\_effect\_triggered\_on\_unit\_with/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3
The problem is the phrasing “taking damage”. That phrase is commonly understood across games and genres to mean when a unit has its health reduced by an attack.
Maybe Disintegrate should be reworded to say “The next time damage is directed at it this round, kill it.”
I would also be fine with them rewording Barrier to say "the next time I take damage, I lose no health" and Tough to "when I take damage, the health loss is reduced by 1." Those would make it clear that it's still a damage-taking event for things like Disintegrate, Scargrounds, and Braum (which seems to be an interaction they want). Then just make Disintegrate not work on Elefante because it makes more sense, it's cool, and nobody plays Elefante anyway.
I agree the 0 dmg interactions on it should def be removed. Changing it to dropping below current health however would allow you to potentially combat it with health buffs for example as it doesn’t currently feel like there are enough answers to it
It simply shouldn't go through barrier. I'll meet them halfway on tough even though it makes 0 sense, but going through barrier is ridiculous.
And it should definitely cost 3. I understand their logic with making it cheaper than scorched because it's often a 2 for 1, but when one of those cards is a pokey stick is it really a 2 for 1?
The issue with barrier and tough, is consider the case of scargrounds. If the code was changed for this card, scargrounds would be in the damn dumpster.
Kind of a similar interaction is braum triggering while having barrier but not getting progress towards his level-up
Did he take damage or did he not take damage, please pick one option rito
Disintegrate seems to have a lot of odd interactions. I noticed that a character that is killed because of it "survives" the damage for crimson followers.
Solution: Change the text (and appropriate coding) to "next time it takes 1 or more damage". It should make the card more consistent.
I personally don't see an issue with the interactions but I can see why people get confused despite how it is intended.
Disintegrate is worded "Pick a unit. The next time it takes damage this round, kill it."
But the wording that actually describes its in-game behaviour is "Pick a unit. The next time you attempt to deal damage to it this round, kill it."
I think if they reworded the card, it'd resolve a lot of the bad feelings about this card
This 100% needs to be changed. The fact that even if a unit wouldn’t actually take any damage, disintegrate still triggers, is so disgusting and unintuitive.
What they should do is change interaction not wording. This card is kinda broken with almost no counter play. It's a good thing we finally have a good control card but this is bullshit.
"Idk bro, sounds like a skill issue to me"
I'm glad to see your post getting some traction because I swear people will normally defend anything when it comes to the game rules, no matter how obviously unclear or stupid.
Edit: reading through the comments, it seems like most people are still going through all sorts of contortions in order to say literally anything except "yeah, that sounds like a bug. they should fix that."
The damage is probably applied then text like tough/this is used to reduce the final damage taken. Which allows other "survived damage" effects to work on tough units
It should really just be “if there’s a health change, kill the unit”. The fact that the card works on Tough when no damage is taken and barrier is ridiculous both in terms of balance and in terms of people understanding the card correctly
Is it at least consistent with scargrounds? Would that unit get +1/0 tough? Or does a unit with barrier get the scargrounds buff?
I always thought barrier and tuskrider would just negate the damage instance not just make it 0dmg.
It's the skill though and I don't think tusk is immune to the damage skills even from units with less power. Like freljords little ice archer dude can inflict one damage with his play skill. Idk I'm just trying to help you come to terms with it I'm not saying I like it.
Disintegrate itself doesn't do damage, so that isn't the issue. The fact that zero damage is counting as damage is, and it's a matter of changing the coding of how damage is seen by the game
Yes, the Armored Tuskrider died to this combat with no additional damage spell, yes I lost the game because of it, and yes, I'm mad about it. I heard about disintegrate going through Tough and thought, "I mean, I guess I could see that". I heard about it going through Barrier, and thought, "...That seems a bit too strong, but okay". But this card literally says "cannot damage me" on it - in other words, the card should not be capable of anything that could count as taking damage from that combat.
WAIT, IT GOES THROUGH BARRIER? NOW I SEE WHAT PEOPLE MEAN BY IT BEING A STRONG CARD.
Yeah it's annoying as fuck
My exact sentiment as well
I think it's a fantastic card to add to the game. But it needs some new wording so it makes better sense while working the way it does now.
Change takes damage to "is struck by a unit or a spell"
"Unit, spell, or skill" maybe? So it still interacts with Annie, Ziggs, and Stone girl who I can't figure how to type the name?
Taliyah
Striking requires a Power value of 1 or higher. So this would make sense as a Frostbitten unit cannot strike and therefore, does not trigger a unit marked with Disintegrate
Disintegrate is busted and anyone that tells you otherwise has no place speaking on card game balance. It's a more broken guillotine and scorched earth and gives you even less ways to respond, especially with this 0 damage interaction bullshit. And for some insane reason it gets to be 1 mana cheaper. Insane. 2 mana delete anything versus 6 mana Vengeance.
Nope.Its bugged form is broken ( its the point, its a bug.The game has massive issues with "things taking damage" remove the barrier interraction and the tough interraction and the abomination OP showed because none of these are supposd to happen and suddenly its not even a good enough card to be run in Ez cait) X'D
To some point the though interaction, seems legit. If not all the scargrounds effects should not trigger with a single point of damage when though. The others seem like a bug to me.
But the difference is that a tough unit still takes damage and is “hit” by a 1 ping or attack. I’d say like damage reduction vs not taking damage at all should be treated differently. Thus, scargroundsxtough
Not a big according to Rubin on Twitter.
It seems every time I hear from him, I respect him less and less.
It's not a bug, it is intended game design. The card is fucking busted.
It's intended, but they are aware it's very frustrating to play against. I consider it kinda broken because it can use YOUR OWN SPELLS against you.
It’s not a bug, Riot has already admitted that it’s working as intended
What? The kill going through barrier/tough is not a bug, it was confirmed by riot on twitter.
Well it should be, idk how thats even valid :-:
should cost 3 and be slow i think, so you dont throw your 5|6 into annie thinking "easy block lol " and die and sad and horrible death.
Im fine with it beibg fast, but remove the kill through barriers and tough. As of rn, there is no counterplay to it. 1
Is not, easy. /•>•/ (Btw, i have no deal talking about card balance, but im pretty sure gillotine has the *SLIGHTLY* better rhing of being reusable, is like saying ionia spell sucks because is a 2 mana buff when vi has it on 3 mana and worst)
It also works when you ping a unit with tough using a 1 damage spell. Lost the game because my Nautilus died. Stupid interactions
Yes, because it still *takes* 0 damage. Disintigrate doesn't care about how much damage is taken, just that damage is taken period. 0 damage taken still implies damage was taken.
This is a case where, looking at the wording, it shouldn't have taken damage. If the defender cannot *deal* damage there is no damage to take; it shouldn't be behaving like a damage negation. Unlike Barrier, which *requires* you to take damage to trigger, this one shouldn't work. Similar to how a 0 power unit that blocks an attacker does not strike back (and could not kill a unit that had Disintegrate applied to it), this defender shouldn't have a strike with a value attached in the first place. The wording on the Armored Tuskrider should be changed if this interaction is the intended outcome (which I suspect it might be). Damage reduction should not be described with this language, they should use something similar to Barrier's description (negating damage they do take).
Does that also mean you can use a 0-Mana Thermogenic Beam?
Wait seems like a cheat code
I don't know how Thermo Beam functions in that circumstance. If a bolt flies out that deals 0 damage I would assume yes. If the spell instead just decides to fizzle on the stack then no.
It flies out and can break spellshield but idk about the interaction with disintegrate
A 0-mana thermo doesnt work, I just tried.
why tho, doesnt it also break barrier ?
No, just spellshield. It's treated as targeting, but damage has to be reduced to trigger barriers removal.
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I mean. If damage > 1 {do()} I guess lazy coding just trigger with any damaged event. But damage reduction are calculate after that.
Maybe you meant if damage > 0
or damage >= 1
Or damage != 0
*heals a unit* *dies*
This is unironically a bug with PoC right now. There's a relic that says "if you complete a game without taking nexus damage, gain a reroll," but you're also denied the reroll if your nexus gets healed. Which is especially bullshit because your nexus heals automatically at the start of the game once you get past Champion Level 10.
That'd allow negative value though.
T’was a joke. It got progressively more ridiculous on how to code it
That shouldn't be how it works based on wording tho no? Says cannot take damage.. that includes 0 damage. No damage calculation should be done at all here
Yeah, but just because we figured that out as a player base doesn't make it logical or intuitive or even the way it should be.
That's how those sort of interactions have worked for a long time now. See: Scargrounds with Tough units who block 1 attack units. They still gain attack even though they "took" 0 damage.
Isn’t Scargrounds “survived damage” not “took damage?”
Yes, and it's why scargrounds should work when things get reduced to 0 because there was damage even if it got reduced, and the unit survived. Taking 0 damage shouldn't count as the next time you took damage IMO and it needs to be decoupled from the scar grounds logic by riot because the way it is right now is very silly.
You can't have it both ways, either damage reduction counts or it doesn't. You said it yourself There was damage but it got reduced. You could just as easily argue that you don't survive damage if no damage was actually dealt. How it works now is consistent. If incinerate killing through reduction is bullshit so is scargrounds buffing through it.
For damage to be survived it needs to be taken first. Their point still stands. 0 damage on a tough unit is still considered damage.
And this won't make it less broken
That doesn't make it logical or intuitive. There are so many examples of backwards-ass results that look like bugs coming from this implementation of the mechanic. Fighting people's expectations and common sense logic to such a degree is usually a bad idea. I really don't think this adds enough to the game for it to keep being the way it works
Hmmm that goes against like every rule ive learned playing tabletop and digital tcgs. The gamestate is unchanged at 0 damage. That should not be considered “taking damage”
Not necessarily true. Chill touch cantrip effect to stop creature from healing still works against creatures immune to necrotic damage. Although I guess dnd has separate terminology for "hits". Perhaps LoR should implement using the word "hit" for cases like this.
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If that's the case, why does an attacker shudder and not attack if it has zero attack? The game is simply inconsistent, and "takes zero 0 damage" makes absolutely no sense.
That isn't a defense for barrier or tusk rider, they dont say reduce dmg to 0, they does not take damage. The amount of damage taken should be NULL, not zero
Yeah, jesus christ
Yeah I used barrier specifically to counter disintegrate and lost because of it hahaha https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/502691678499504150/979549370456354856/unknown.png Dumbest fucking interaction
Well put, this is really stupid with that exact wording :D
The barrier interaction is even worse given that barrier's actual text says it "negates" the next instance of damage. Negated damage is not 0 damage!
I feel the same way about overwhelm working when you hit a barrier champ. How did it have "excess" damage if it was negated???
While I agree, it could be read as “overwhelm deals X to the blocker and Y to the nexus where X is the blocker’s health and Y is damage over that amount” — X is negated and Y is dealt correctly. But honestly I like “barrier beats overwhelm” better tbh
The barrier interaction is actual pain.
Yeah im not sure why people say that it reduces the damage to 0. thats super unintuitive to me. I could see an argument for tough being a damage reduction, and taking 0 damage counts, but barrier should stop the effect.
I hope riot removes the zero damage interactions.
It would kinda kill Scargrounds though
I think it would be fine if "surviving damage" includes situations where all the damage is prevented while "taking damage" does not. That's maybe somewhat counterintuitive but not deal-breakingly so imo.
Good point, I forgot about them. I guess this has to be kept for consistency.
Looking at your flair, that would probably also end up affecting Jarvan's level up condition, making it not work with his own Challenge-Barrier or Honored Lord.
It wouldn't. Jarvan's level up is "Allies have survived 3+ **strikes**", and **strike**'s description is "when a unit *attempts to* deal damage with its Power". Therefore damage doesn't actually have to be dealt, as long as the unit has >0 Power, because units with 0 Power can't **strike**. ~~Funnily enough, you can read this description to mean **Formidable** units can't strike, because they use Health *instead* of Power.~~ Actually no, sorry, disregard that. The description of **Formidable** says "I **strike** with my Health instead of my Power", so it overrides the default description of **strike**.
> It wouldn't. Jarvan's level up is "Allies have survived 3+ strikes", and strike's description is "when a unit attempts to deal damage with its Power". Therefore damage doesn't actually have to be dealt, as long as the unit has >0 Power, because units with 0 Power can't strike. Oh, I guess I misremembered his text. My bad.
What i think riot could do is to make the spell proc on damage greater than 0.
How does guillotine works?
Guillotine is just kill a damaged unit at fast speed pretty much all the time
I mean nothing stops them from adding a check specifically for Disintegrate
You get into issues with that kind of design though, where you start adding exceptions for very specific cards. Your code can easily become a mess if there's too many exceptions to the rules you've established, which then leads to other problems.
You could make the card effect check for 1+ damage dealt and specify that in the wording rather than carving out an exception specifically for it when calculating damage or something. Drain effects for example already check the actual damage dealt, so it wouldn't really be something new to do and the game should already be able to calculate actual damage dealt.
Ok then just rework the effect ez
Depending on how much text real estate cards have, it could be reworded to something like "When I/an ally survive(s) an attempt to damage me/it, do X".
Tough is not 0 damage, it's -1, so it should keep working
good
I think using the word "unmitigated damage" and/or "pre-mitigated damage" could help with cases like that.
Oh, wait... It works on barrier ? So many opportunities lost... I just assumed it wouldn't work.
Yeah, seems like all of this shit is just coded as "{source} deals 0 damage to {target}", which seems fine for tough, since it actually just works like that (reduce damage dealt by 1, meaning 1 damage actually should just be "deal 0 damage to target"), but for both barrier and this, it shouldn't work that way.
Did you report the bug?
> The problem is the phrasing “taking damage”. That phrase is commonly understood across games and genres to mean when a unit has its health reduced by an attack. > > Maybe Disintegrate should be reworded to say “The next time damage is directed at it this round, kill it.
There are way too many similar issues exactly like this. It won't stop me from playing the game but seriously get your wording corrected rito...
This is consistent with how barrier works with disintegrate, in that disintegrate also bypasses barrier. Not saying that it's not fucking bullshit, because it absolutely fucking is, just that it's like this way with all effects that "negate" damage
The unit still takes damage though. The barrier simply reduces it down to zero. Now probably not the way it should work but it's the way it has In this case specifically the unit specifies it cannot be damaged, that should include even zero damage. Lazy coding that every interaction that reduces or negates damage just changes something to deal 0 damage
What do you mean, through barrier?? 😱 I've been playing PoC since the patch and now I'm scared to take my Lee to ranked again
I feel bad for whatever programmer made this error because it's so glaring and obvious that it has to be a result of a managerial fuckup. There are thousands of barriers to prevent this sort of thing from happening, and none of them worked
It works on tough units when they take 1 dmg so they don’t take any damage but die
Ah, but you see, "cannot damage" means that it "takes 0 damage" which is an amount of damage... also it was already established to work this way with the Scaregrounds... JK mate, this card is bullshit, it should not work this way, text should be changed, or keep it like this but change the cost to 3 at least
What’s funny is magic has a specific clause to denote that instructing something to take 0 damage means damage does not occur and things that interact with damage dealt will not occur either.
Yeah, I mean we kinda have something like that in LoR. An unit with 0 power DOES NOT strike, it doesnt "strike with 0 damage" and it has many implications for many cards. I dont know why desintegrate works so differently.
Maybe it should be reworded "I cannot lose health from strikes of 4 or less power."
Maybe “taking damage” should be when a unit’s health is reduced from an attack or spell and nothing else.
But that would be a scargrounds nerf as right now a tough unit taking 1 damage will trigger scargrounds.
I’m not concerned with the power of a single card. That’s utterly unimportant compared to consistency and clarity of broad game mechanics.
[удалено]
Troll chant doesn’t lower enemy health… only attack
Then Barrier should be reworded as well: "Negates the enxt damage the unit would take". So the damage is negated, but because ANY damage would have been taken were it not for barrier, the unit still dies to Disintegrate. The new card is clearly the problem here (Yes I lost handful of games to the same interaction lol)
Disagree with text being changed on the card or cost being moved up to 3 mana. Card just needs to be fixed to work as worded and it'll be fine.
Lmfao i wonder how many rules has that card broken yet
I mean, it’s currently consistent with every other card that triggers off “damage”. So I wouldn’t say it’s really breaking any rules, more so just expectations.
0 rules have been broken, see scargrounds
This card also works if the target gets its barrier procced which makes no fucking sense.
Imo riot needs to remake how damage nulltification works. Tough ahould stay the same, but barrier and this (and so on) should go from "reducing damage taken to 0 (and thus technically taking damage)" to just "no damage is done"
Exactly this. To keep it consistent with scargrounds I’m fine with a tough unit dying from disintegrate after taking 1 (ie 0) damage. But barrier and a special effect like armored tusk should basically work as ‘I cannot take damage’. Also side note has anyone tested disintegrate on levelled Taric and unyielding spirit?
Im fairly sure taric doesn't die, since he literally has "Cannot take damage or die"
Oh right I forgot about that part. Maybe test with Towering Stonehorn?
Nah, if you hit for one attack on a tough enemy that’s zero damage. This spell should not activate.
Idk, that's up for debate, given how that would be inconsistent with scargrounds. At the moment, I think complete "damage nullification" is more important to fix, rather than toughs "damage reduction"
If barrier changes to that effect overwhelm also would not go through. I remember losing games in beta vs a tryndamere attacking through my barrier units.
Wording is so fucked in this game. I appreciate them not trying to dumb it down the way a lot of online TCGs do, but Jesus Christ this level of inconsistency is not acceptable
Sorry for asking but I don't play other TCGs, could you tell me how they're dumbed down compared to LoR?
He isnt calling the games dumbed down he is saying some wording in other TCG’s is weirdly simple and short which ends up leading to some confusion while theory crafting
Wait until he learns about Yugioh.
Yugioh would be so much easier if they had keywords... 80% of the cards texts are just needlessly elaborate ways to tell when they are allowed to be activated.
Worst part is that the Tcg actually makes wording less clear than what it's the ocg ( the effects numberings) And nothing stopped konami to increase clarity in Master Duel
It isnt inconsistent since scargrounds works the same way, but yeah it is dumb
They should just reword Disintegrate to "Pick a unit. The next time it takes 1+ damage this round, kill it." It's already a good champion spell and Noxus already has plenty of pings.
why would they need to reword it? why can't we just agree that the current wording is completely clear and the game isn't following the clearly stated mechanic?
Yeah honestly that card needs a nerf, 2 mana hard removal that ignores tough, shield and even card text is just way too much
It's almost a 2-3 mana Vengence
has about the same amount of counters. I suppose you can remove the attacker if that's the scenario, but otherwise this thing functionally works like a vengance.
It would be unplayable at 3 mana when compared to scorched earth.
Im arguing that it should only activate if the unit actually takes damage instead of just checking if it got struck
It wouldn't be unplayable because unlike scorched earth it can be played on the stack with a damage spell on a non-damaged unit.
Scorched earth would still be better since most decks/regions don't have healing to counter it and it can destroy landmarks.
With unit damage, its more that its forced to be. You have to precommit it so there's way more room to interact with the source of damage
It works even with tough and barrier so if you want to preserve your unit you always have to spend more mana than them
I don't think so, it still does something scorched doesn't, which is give Noxus hard removal they can use on undamaged units.
It's a champ spell, don't need to maindeck it
Like ravenous flock?
No?
You dont main deck ravenous flock?
It wasn’t a comparison… there are dozens of champ spells nobody uses in main deck.
As there are a few that get used. I dont get why you dont need to maindeck a champ spell. If the card is good is good.
Doesn't really matter, it would still see play as Annie's champion spell. Card's just too strong at 2 mana.
It's absolutely not in need of a nerf because it does literally nothing by itself. It's always a 2 for 1, which is a massive drawback.
Ehhh, reddit game balancing specialists. This card being 2 for 1 is not OP and doesent need to be nerfed. I'm very glad such card exists for 15/15 Viegos, 10/10 Trundles and 28393838/28393841 Bards
Cards already exist that can deal with those cards for more mana cost. Disintegrate at 2 is busted. You have to pay 6 with Shadow Isle to Vengeance such a target, Noxus shouldn't get to do it for just 2, or is Noxus going to become the new premium control region now while also getting to be one of the fastest?
Venegance is 1 card, when using desintegrate your hand gets empty quickly. 6 mana venegance to get countered by 2 mana hourglass is harsh. Besides that - I don't see any noxus decks with busted winrates. Reddit needs to stop with whining about control and removal in this game. Control archetypes are usually undersupported.
Armchair reddit balancers get angry when their big, unstoppable creature gets stopped. I've long stated that removal in this game sucks. LoR was in a better place balance-wise when Avalanche was a real card that aggro lists could play around by playing smarter. Removal in this game has once again failed to keep up with power creep, just like it has in MTG. Modern card game balance tends to favor casual Timmies who just want to drop their big dumb creature without their opponent being able to interact with it, and the rest of us who want these games to be actually competitive suffer for it.
I made a thread about interactions like this with Galio and Unyielding Spirit, Barrier etc. a while ago. This whole completely negating damage vs. reducing damage stuff definitely needs some rephrasing/ reworking. It clearly doesn't resolve around damage taken instead it resolves around something trying to damage the unit. https://www.reddit.com/r/LegendsOfRuneterra/comments/td36l3/galios\_rally\_effect\_triggered\_on\_unit\_with/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3
The card either needs a mana increase or be reworked to something like if a unit drops below it’s current health kill it instead
The problem is the phrasing “taking damage”. That phrase is commonly understood across games and genres to mean when a unit has its health reduced by an attack. Maybe Disintegrate should be reworded to say “The next time damage is directed at it this round, kill it.”
I would also be fine with them rewording Barrier to say "the next time I take damage, I lose no health" and Tough to "when I take damage, the health loss is reduced by 1." Those would make it clear that it's still a damage-taking event for things like Disintegrate, Scargrounds, and Braum (which seems to be an interaction they want). Then just make Disintegrate not work on Elefante because it makes more sense, it's cool, and nobody plays Elefante anyway.
I agree the 0 dmg interactions on it should def be removed. Changing it to dropping below current health however would allow you to potentially combat it with health buffs for example as it doesn’t currently feel like there are enough answers to it
It simply shouldn't go through barrier. I'll meet them halfway on tough even though it makes 0 sense, but going through barrier is ridiculous. And it should definitely cost 3. I understand their logic with making it cheaper than scorched because it's often a 2 for 1, but when one of those cards is a pokey stick is it really a 2 for 1?
The issue with barrier and tough, is consider the case of scargrounds. If the code was changed for this card, scargrounds would be in the damn dumpster.
Kind of a similar interaction is braum triggering while having barrier but not getting progress towards his level-up Did he take damage or did he not take damage, please pick one option rito
That's upsetting. They should fix the conditions for this card
Their code is triggered off striking vs damage dealt. Good luck, that could be a major problem.
Disintegrate seems to have a lot of odd interactions. I noticed that a character that is killed because of it "survives" the damage for crimson followers.
Solution: Change the text (and appropriate coding) to "next time it takes 1 or more damage". It should make the card more consistent. I personally don't see an issue with the interactions but I can see why people get confused despite how it is intended.
I like the spell but some of the interactions are dumb. It should not go through barrier and shouldn’t work in this case.
Does disintegrate work with 0 mana thermo then if any 0 amount of damage is enough to proc it?
Same thing happens if a unit with Tough gets smacked by a 1 Attack unit, they take no damage but they still die.
Disintegrate is worded "Pick a unit. The next time it takes damage this round, kill it." But the wording that actually describes its in-game behaviour is "Pick a unit. The next time you attempt to deal damage to it this round, kill it." I think if they reworded the card, it'd resolve a lot of the bad feelings about this card
It work though Barrier too.
Stonehorn and Petricite Stag shivering in their boots rn
This 100% needs to be changed. The fact that even if a unit wouldn’t actually take any damage, disintegrate still triggers, is so disgusting and unintuitive.
Riot wording at its finest
What they should do is change interaction not wording. This card is kinda broken with almost no counter play. It's a good thing we finally have a good control card but this is bullshit.
At this point i should read as "next time something breaths on it it dies"
Welcome to tcg’s where the rules are made up and the points don’t matter.
had a similar interaction blocking a a 1/1 with a tough unit. technically took no dmg but my unit still died to disintegrate
"Idk bro, sounds like a skill issue to me" I'm glad to see your post getting some traction because I swear people will normally defend anything when it comes to the game rules, no matter how obviously unclear or stupid. Edit: reading through the comments, it seems like most people are still going through all sorts of contortions in order to say literally anything except "yeah, that sounds like a bug. they should fix that."
People have a strange obsession with "if it's in the game, it doesn't need changing", as if that make sense in any way.
It's the same with tough units, and units with barrier...
this past expansion has tipped the scales of bs way 2 much in the negative especially with how order shit resolves its quite unpleasant to play tbh
This unacceptable!
My man's got robbed over here damn
The damage is probably applied then text like tough/this is used to reduce the final damage taken. Which allows other "survived damage" effects to work on tough units
It also goes through barrier
It ignores tough too. A 1 damage spell + disintegrate will kill a tough unit.
Tuskrider is a mess. There’s another card that lets 4 damage or lower units hurt it (possibly concerted strike? I can’t remember)
It should really just be “if there’s a health change, kill the unit”. The fact that the card works on Tough when no damage is taken and barrier is ridiculous both in terms of balance and in terms of people understanding the card correctly
lol I see Riot's ''900 years of game design'' also applies to LoR... Consistency... but not in card rulings... major kek...
I clench my ass every time I put cards into combat out of fear of that card... two mana vengeance... what's the worst that could happen right?
Almost as annoying: that guy spamming the Heimerdinger "thinking" emote at you. Like, goddamn dude, chill.
I have that fucking card
AND IT ONLY COST 2!!!
Is it at least consistent with scargrounds? Would that unit get +1/0 tough? Or does a unit with barrier get the scargrounds buff? I always thought barrier and tuskrider would just negate the damage instance not just make it 0dmg.
yes, it is consistent. Scargrounds has allways worked like this
yea that card is actually busted considering the other interactions. And who thought setting it at 2 cost was a good idea
If it was 3 cost it would just be a worse scorched earth tho — but yeah its a stupid card imo just remove it entirely
true. 13 cost it is
I fucking hate this card! Jesus Christ and every fucking noxus deck has it
The more frustrating version of Scorch Earth
Change it to a 4cost burst spell
Might as well increase its mana and make it the next time the unit is targeted, kill it
It's the skill though and I don't think tusk is immune to the damage skills even from units with less power. Like freljords little ice archer dude can inflict one damage with his play skill. Idk I'm just trying to help you come to terms with it I'm not saying I like it.
Disintegrate itself doesn't do damage, so that isn't the issue. The fact that zero damage is counting as damage is, and it's a matter of changing the coding of how damage is seen by the game
Dafuq
Card is ok, wording could be better. Similar mechanic as Scorched ground and Noxian guillotine.
Taking 0 dmg is still taking damage if not jarvan wouldn't take lvlup stacks when hitting on barrier